Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies

Notification of AfDs etc

Asking for project imput into deletion discussions is getting controversial and is at the borderline of what is acceptable under WP:CANVAS. On the one hand, members of Wikiprojects may have useful knowledge of the article in question and may be able assist in finding reliable sources to support notability. On the other hand, they are often likely to support keeping articles that are within their project's scope and can be rallied in large numbers. This often leads to allegations of votestacking. I suggest that we clarify amongst ourselves what sort of responses to deletions or XfDs are acceptable and what are not to avoid difficulty in future. My thoughts:

• Adding an AfD (or other XfD) discussion to the noticeboard
• Making a request on a project talkpage (or members' talkpages) for help finding reliable sources to confirm notability or other changes needed for the AfD to be survived
• Asking on a project talkpage (or several members' talkpages) for help in preventing an article being deleted
• Project members contributing to an XfD discussion of which they become aware through the project (and to which a number of project members have already contributed) when they have no new argument to contribute (XfDs are not votes)

The above is erring on the cautious side but seems the best approach to me. What do people think? WJBscribe 18:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Good for us to look at this proactively; thanks, WJB, for raising it. My initial responses:

Point #3 seems to be basically the negative version of point #1--I agree with both points as phrased, but wonder if they shouldn't be combined into a single point that just succinctly states the distinction between notifying and asking for help/particular "votes".

Point #2 is a helpful thing that people can and should do for articles whether subject to AFD or not. I'm not sure how to phrase it in a way that handles the canvassing issue. Maybe, it's a sort of "things that can be considered canvassing in the context of an AFD" with suggested neutral / notification / general improvement language ... ?

Point #4 is a sort of general reminder of the point of xFDs.

Hmm. But maybe WJB's initial instinct is right, to just bullet a list of do's and don't's. Mulling .... --lquilter 18:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Two comments / questions:

1) XfDs are not votes?

2) I think we should stress adding XfDs to the S&g DelSort board, not particularly the noticeboard.

-- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:22, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

User:BenAveling/AFD is not a vote (that's the official line and I'm sticking to it ;-) and yes, the Deletion Sorting board now supercedes the noticeboard. I think the idea of a blatant, colored, bulleted list is spot-on; it's better to be painfully clear than to screw up and start canvassing. Good call, WJBscribe, and thanks for being the one to keep bringing this up until it gets explicitly dealt with. — coelacan talk — 19:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up WJB. I agree with erring on the cautious side. If, worst case sceanario, an article is deleted a new one can always be built and sourced. I'd rather that, than the project get a bad name. And thanks for that link Coelcan, it was very helpful.-- ParAmmon (cheers thanks a lot!) 20:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I see this as a still-open thing to move forward on. Need to try to come to consensus on what to do with this list, if there's anything else to add to it, and then put it somewhere prominent. In my opinion, it should go on all deletion-discussion-related pages and also at the very top of this talk page, since this is another place the problem can arise. — coelacan talk — 06:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

A Challenge!

I challenge everyone this month to invite five editors to LGBT articles to this project! We only have gained two this February. We need more! There are fabulous editors out there who could contribute loads, go find them! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

We have only gained two this February. No guys you haven't fallen asleep and woken up in March. It is still Feb 4th ;-). Dev just has an insatiable appetite for project members it would appear. WJBscribe 01:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Compared to 50 last month, we're falling waaaay behind... :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:03, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Wait - what two new members? On the WP:LGBT/Members list I only see one new one, an that's just an IP... -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:07, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Tell you what Dev, here's easy one for you- why don't you persuade Coelacan to sign the member list? WJBscribe 02:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, blow me down, how come she escaped getting on the list? I thought I'd contacted everyone who had the userbox but hadn't got on the list. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not in the band. I'm just a roadie, good for some heavy lifting when you can find me. =D — coelacan talk — 07:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

We actually gained 53 members last month, and Haljor and Brianna Austin, who has not yet acquired an account, signed up this month. But I've been pondering this for a while and it seems to me that if we all go to our respective editing areas (because Tigermarc, say, knows far more about who works on gay leather articles than I do) and then find five people throughout February who could potentially make really great contributions and invite them, and 2 of those people actually join (my success rate is 52% atm) and at least 15 members actually did this, we'd gain 30 members, all in marvellously diverse areas who could really add something to the project as we stand! And that's not counting the usual drip of about one member a day from banners (I assume it's banners). That's almost 50 members again! YAY! Hmm, we might want to put this as a challenge in April's newsletter, so everyone who doesn't read this page can see it...

Maybe I'm too evangelical about how fantastic I think this project and the people who form it are? :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

/me whines: That was hard! But I've invited five (and gotten one rejection already). -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Community department is done.

The Community Department is done. I place it here for your criticism before it goes "live" and gets added to the page, template etc. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that my little speech above about consolidation is still my view, and after this department, I intend to keep my ideas to myself this month. Too much too soon is harmful. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 13:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

No-one likes the community department? *pouts* Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I dig it. And I've rearranged it a bit.[1] I guess the question now is how to advertise it prominently on the project main page. — coelacan talk — 06:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Added a little more quilt instruction. I think this talk page section is getting overlooked because the whole page is so busy in general. I would just put the link to the department on the main page and let people start discovering it from there. — coelacan talk — 06:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Poster

I came up with this in January, so my "keeping my ideas to myself" promise doesn't count. With the help of Ouro, I created an LGBT advertising poster last month, and have only just edited it in response to his criticism. Thus, I present it to you now. I have built us a website to host it, you can find it at http://wplgbt.tripod.com/Wikipedianeedsyou.doc (you have to directly cut and paste the url, or it won't let you download it). I checked the Foundation policy on my usage of a copyrighted image and they freely give permission for anyone to use their logos to promote Wikipedia, so I think we're OK. I was thinking we could put it up in LGBT reference libraries, centres and cybercafes, or just normal places which are situated in gay communities (so pretty much anywhere in Provincetown). What do you reckon? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. I'd be more comfortable though if the poster made clear that edits should improve the quality of article in a neutral manner, not advance any particular LGBT agenda. We don't want to be blamed for an influx of LGBT POV-pushers into Wikipedia :-). WJBscribe 01:19, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That is a very good point. I have edited the poster accordingly. Now? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 01:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine to me now. WJBscribe 02:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I sent it to the Foundation Communication Manager, and she was delighted with it. She asked if she could send it on to the core PR team! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Coordinator Proposal

Full details at coordinator proposal

This project is nearing 100 members- this is a fantastic achievement. But as the project grows, it becomes increasingly more difficult to ensure that we know who is doing various procedural tasks and that people know who to ask if they have questions and problems. Some WikiProjects have responded to this problem by electing a coordinator as the designated port of call for these issues. As this project continues to grow, I think it important that there be someone to be responsible for the procedural running of the project and to respond to questions from members. You can read full details of what I propose here. This I how I propose to move forward:

1. Nominations will be open for 3 days.
2. If you would like to nominate yourself or someone else to be coordinator please do so below.
3. After 3 days there will be an informal election on a subpage. WJBscribe 02:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Comments on the proposal itself

Suggestions/objections to the proposal or questions about it

Comment/Question: Does a coordinator also act as a spokesperson for a wikiproject? Raystorm 17:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. They tend to because they are a likely port of call when someone wants to ask about the project or something the project has done. But that doesn't mean anyone else is unable to speak for the project, just that they're more likely to be asked. I wouldn't express the role as something as formal as spokesperson, and certainly the coordinator shouldn't say "the LGBT project think X". But there prob will be quite a bit of explaining the project and what it is about. WjBscribe 18:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I would not say a Co-ordinator could say "WP:LGBT think X" - we don't agree much on anything, as the various discussions below demonstrate. When I give interviews, or talk about the Project, I usually differentiate between what we have done and are doing and what I personally think of it and would like to do next. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Nominations are now closed. I shall take the emptiness of this section as an endorsement... A brief election (or I guess endorsement as there was only one nomination) will now be held shortly. WjBscribe 18:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Nominations

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Nominations ended. Result was Dev920 is the sole nominee. WjBscribe 17:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Dev920 (talk · contribs). OK. I'll start the ball rolling. A few months ago this project had very much lost momentum and was virtually dead in the water. Dev920 resurrected it and has kick-started a number of brilliant initiatives. Over 80 people have joined the project since then. The project pages have been updated and the portal is looking pretty good. Dev920 has started a vast number of initiatives to keep people involved and focus efforts. Notable examples include Jumpaclass and Peer review. I cannot even guess how many articles have been tagged since she joined (though someone is bound to tell me shortly). Her enthousiasm for new ideas appears boundless and her guidance has been inspirational. In my opinion she already acts as this project's coordinator and deserves to be recognised as such. WJBscribe 02:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. Jeffpw 09:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

About 4300. ;) No, really, I'm deeply honoured. I suppose now would be a good time to tell you that I'm now an official press contact for the Wikimedia Foundation and the "ComCom rep for GLBT magazines". :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

LGBT journalists, Muslims, and Jews

I've made the category, LGBT journalists.[2] It's a bit sad at the moment, with only a handful of pages in it, but if any knows any journalists to add — or would be willing to search around a bit to find some (I've had trouble finding lesbian journalists, for example), it would be much appreciated. There's a page for LGBT people by occupation[3], and I think it should include some more occupations. I've also made a category for LGBT Muslims[4], but I think that will be a much harder one to add pages to. I was considering making other categories based on religion, such as LGBT Hindus, but even searching around I can't find anything to start with. The closest is hijras, but I can't tell if they're Hindu. LGBT Jews[5] should be easier, considering there's a list of LGBT Jews to work from. Anyway, I just wanted to let you all know, in case anyone wants to contribute. Thanks! — Emiellaiendiay 03:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality for guidelines on creating new LGBT categories. LGBT categories should be significant, and not simply intersections with other existing categories. Otherwise, they are likely to be deleted. Also, read Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of LGBT Jews. It was proposed to delete the list and create a category, and after discussion it was decided not to. -- Samuel Wantman 10:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've read it through, and I think they're significant. -Emiellaiendiay 02:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the journalist category is significant, but I don't know what other occupations you are considering. The intersections with religion are bound to be controversial, as they have shown to be controversial in the past. My reading of the policy would take it to mean that if someone were classified as being a "LGBT Jew" it would be because they were known for being an LGBT activist in the Jewish community or something similar. If they just happen to be LGBT, and just happen to be Jewish, it would not be a significant intersection. In such cases it would fit the criteria for overcategorization. -- Samuel Wantman 07:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Question about the scope of the project

Hi all. I've been trying to find a way into working regularly on this without having to be more wikified than I am, which isn't very. So i was reading the various forms of guidance, and ran into something I thought might need discussion and possibly even change:

• This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of transgender status or same-sex romantic relationships, and related societal reactions.

So... the measure of queerness is same-sex relationships? I'm bi, so that obviously is an issue for me, but also... I know I'm bi whether I'm in a relationship or not. I think this definition is a bit excluding (it definitely isn't bi-friendly) - what do others think? White hotel 09:29, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I see your point. Getting the wording right can be tricky. Please consider the project's scope to be bi-inclusive until better phrasing is chosen... and adopted retroactively. =) Who's got suggestions? Would "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of transgender status or same-sex or bisexual romantic relationships, and related societal reactions" work okay? — coelacan talk — 10:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

On second thought I still missed addressing part of what you're saying, that the "relationship" part is not necessary. I'll wait for other suggestions though, it's late and I'm getting slow. — coelacan talk — 10:24, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Dude, don't get me wrong, I love this project and I feel included - I was invited following my edits to the pages on biseuality and biphobia, and I have no problem with the project approach, as I understand it... I just think maybe this wording doesn't reflect that. Perhaps something like 'This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of queer gender and sexual identities, and related societal responses'? I know some people have a problem with 'queer' as an inclusive term... maybe use 'LGBTIQ' instead of queer if people feel that might be better? White hotel 10:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm bisexual, and how are we not included by "same-sex romantic relationships"? If they're not same-sex, they're straight relationships. Those are hardly under the scope of an LGBT project. A much more vague definition is "everything pertaining to LGBT cultural, political, societal and historical issues". You're trying to be too over sensitive. Perhaps if people have a problem with "queer" or "LGBT" as the inclusive term they they have external-identification issues, as they're just words. Should we make the whole thing more friendly to men who have sex with men, too?~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 12:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

To answer your first question, I think it's pretty straightforward - bi people are bi, and queer, whether we're with a same sex, opposite sex or trans partner. So if this project, or any project, is only interested in bi people as long as we're in same-sex relationships, then it's not particularly inclusive. I'm not gya, but I imagine gay identity doesn't simply disappear if gay people are single or celibate, right? Another question for you- if a bi woman is in a relationship with a bi man, are they in a straight relationship? White hotel 20:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm bisexual and single, and I still feel included. However, I think this entire thing can be dealt with simply by changing "relationships" to "attractions". Thus: "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of transgender status or same-sex romantic attractions, and related societal reactions." Might want to add an "and sexual" in there too. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:17, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That really doesn't help. I think it needs to address identity, but it can't *only* address identity since the project covers historical figures to whom the very concept of sexual identity would have seemed extremely strange. It's hard to manage that without getting too wordy, but something like "transgender status or non-heterosexual identities or relationships" might do it. —Celithemis 05:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't "same sex attractions" cover the historical aspect you mentioned, without getting in to the identity part?

Or we could just go with "queer"... -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

"Attractions" doesn't deal as well with the issues White hotel raised, and honestly it just seems weird to me to center the definition around attraction like that.

I like the word queer well enough, but hestitate to apply it to Alexander the Great.... —Celithemis 07:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

On second thought, is this line of the scope definition even needed? It already says "LGBT and queer studies articles" -- that seems clear enough to me. —Celithemis 07:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't have anything to do with identity. With that sentence to be included in the project, a person has to have same-sex attractions. They don't have to recognise or embrace those attractions, but let's face it, that what makes an LGB person. That's what separates us from everyone else. Why not simply go with it? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe for you bisexuality is just a set of sexual behaviours, but not for me. And what makes a biseuxal person is engagement that precisely ISN'T single-sex oriented! Bisexuals aren't queer only for the proportion of the time they're in relationships, or feeling attraction to, members of the same sex. Bisexuality is a sexuality like any other, not half of one sexuality and half of another - biphobia thrives on that misconception. White hotel 12:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but we do not need that kind of snide remark on the project. A bisexual identity is based on the fact that we have same-sex attractions - if we didn't, we'd be straight. What is a bisexual identity if not a "manifestation of same-sex romantic attractions"? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:52, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I refer you to my comments earlier in this para: I am not being snide, I really value this project and am happy to be part of it. I'm sorry if I offended you - I'm sure you don't need it at the moment!

To answer your question, 'what is a bisexual identity if not a 'manifestation of same-sex romantic attractions' - bisexuality is a manifestation of BOTH-sex romantic attractions; an identity in itself separate from gay identity and subject to biphobia based on the idea that when we're with opposite-sex partners, we're straight. Not the case, and so I believe bisexual people are within the scope of this project whether we are currently in a same-sex, or an opposite-sex (or a trans) relationship. White hotel 16:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the fact is we are bisexual because we have same-sex attraction - if we are in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, we don't suddenly switch those attractions off, do we? The sentence as I have suggested it covers us for all time, regardless of who we are dating. To take one example, Lord Alfred Douglas comes under the purview of our project on the basis that he was attracted to men, even though he renounced his "vice" an got married to a woman for the latter half of his life. We are included in that sentence - I just don't see the need to push home the fact that we have heterosexual attractions as well. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Your first sentence makes little sense to me - sure, what marks us out as different from the heterosexual norm is same sex attraction, which exposes us to homophobia. but what marks us out as different from the gay norm is opposite-sex atrtraction, which exposes us to biphobia. Neither one is by itself an adequate definition - it's our predisposition to both that defines us. Validating one above another is, then, misleading. White hotel 16:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, I don't really understand what you want changing, but it might be a good time to re-evaluate our scope guidelines - much of it reads like goals rather than areas we cover. For example, what does "collect information for possible high-quality LGBT/Queer studies textbooks for Wikibooks" have to do with our scope? (Though we should totally do that). Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Celithemis brought up a point about the word "attractions" that I'd stil like hir to address, but until then, does this work with Dev and WhiteHotel's points listed above?

“ This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of transgender status or sexual/romantic attractions, and related societal reactions. ”

Comments? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Slight adjustment: "transgender status or sexual/romantic attractions" can be read to mean "transgender status or [transgender] sexual/romantic attractions". I'm not a grammarian so I don't know what this ambiguity is called, but it disappears with this arrangment: "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of sexual/romantic attractions or transgender status, and related societal reactions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Coelacan (talk • contribs) 04:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

Hmmm - so maybe switch the two? "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of sexual/romantic attractions or transgender status, and related societal reactions." -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I still would like something in there about identity (taking on board Celithemis' point about identity being a historical construct) - how about "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of queer and genderqueer attractions, relationships and identities, and related societal responses."? White hotel 12:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I absolutely detest the word queer and oppose its use anywhere in our scope. I have no intention of using a slur to describe myself. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind 'queer' when used among fellow LGBTetc people, but I think it's not the right word to use in defining ourselves. As Dev920 says, it's a slur, and though many have reclaimed it for more positive uses, its primary usage is still derogatory. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

scope proposal

"Queer" can be confusing for many straight people, too, who may not be familiar with the scope of the word. L-G-B-T-listing is self-explanatory, for the most part. So anyway, I've tried to synthesize all the different concerns here. The result is exhaustive and grammatically unambiguous, I hope. "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of same-sex, bisexual, or transgender identities, attractions, and relationships, and related societal reactions." I expect someone will feel this is unwieldy, and I won't jump to disagree, but I think that's preferable to being inaccurate or making accidental omissions. Thoughts? — coelacan talk — 03:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

(margin reset) I won't oppose that synthesis, and I don't see a way to make it more wieldy without losing meaning or omitting something/one. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for those I offended by using that term... I'm aware that it isn't to everyone's liking. I like your synthesis, Coelacan, and wouldn't oppose it, but maybe it would be simpler still to say "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of LGBT identities, attractions, and relationships, and related societal reactions."

White hotel 16:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

White hotel, I believe that the breakdown that uses "same-sex ... relationships (etc.)" is worded that way to indisputably include Alexander the Great and Sappho, et al. LGBT terminology did not exist then as it does now and the exact natures of their relationships were quite different from modern understandings and so may not be encompassed by the scope of these terms, but "same-sex relationships" they defintely were. Haiduc is much better at explaining this than I am, but trust me on this one ;-) — coelacan talk — 07:24, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Any still outstanding objections, then? "This project does not extend beyond the cultural, political and historical manifestation of same-sex, bisexual, or transgender identities, attractions, and relationships, and related societal reactions." — coelacan talk — 00:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Changed.[6] — coelacan talk — 07:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Vote stacking

The deletion debate regarding the article Adam4Adam contained a statement which several people regarded as an allegation of vote stacking by members of this project. At Chairboy's suggestion, Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Chairboy has been established to discuss this allegation and related issues. Shaundakulbara 21:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've responded to the charges in the RfC. The allegation is disturbing and disapointing, but I hope that my response on the page will help answer any concerns. Best regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:01, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Both CaveatLector and I have submitted statements regarding the alleged votestacking. I can only offer one small crumb of cheer from this: three months ago no-one knew we existed, now they talk about us everywhere! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Its not the sort of publicity I would have wished for frankly. And the issue of WikiProjects, XfDs and votestacking is now well on the agenda.... WJBscribe 00:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It was on the agenda well before, certainly back in my Islam days. What's more annoying is that we didn't actually votestack at all, but Chairboy's convinced everyone that we did. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:44, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I do sort of see Chairboy's point actually. This post to this board is in very strong terms and looks like a rallying cry. He then sees a number of project members voice opinions- some without adding much to the debate. Its bound to look like votestacking to him in those circumstances. WJBscribe 15:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Wikibooks

I would really, really, like to someday establish an LGBT presence on Wikibooks. The nearest we come at the moment is someone is writing a textbook on the work of Michel Foucault. What I would really like to do right now, though, is write a wikibook on LGBT history. I turn to your expertise and ask, if you were writing such a book, what would you put in it? Here is my table of contents thus far:

Prehistory

Archeological evidence of homosexuality

Antiquity

The Egyptians

Homosexuality in Japan

The Greeks

The Romans

Homosexuality and Christianity

The Age of Empire

Homosexuality and the Victorians

Oscar Wilde, Robbie Ross and the aesthetic movement

Modern times

Slow decriminalisation of homosexuality

Gay rights movements

The AIDS epidemic

Same-sex marriage

The Future

You may have noticed there are massive gaps. Fill them in! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a history book with information on homosexuality in the Rennaissance. It being not exactly antiquity, I don't know which category it would fit into. Also, this list seems slightly Eurocentric. Perhaps if you separated it by time period, and then subdivided each into culture-specific time periods (e.g. Age of Empire, Victorian, Renaissance, Qing Dynasty, etc.) A WikiBook is an excellent idea. — Emiellaiendiay 04:38, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would hardly have said Egypt, Japan and Greece were in Europe, but I do agree with you. I used LGBT history as a basis, but that is horribly eurocentric, thus my turning to y'all for help. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Category:Lesbianism-related films

Is this a real category? It has a limited number of films in it, but would it be best to dump this category for the Category:LGBT films? Or maybe rename it to something more encyclapedic? Like Lesbian-related films? Or Lesbian-themed films? Is there a significant distinction between Lesbianism and Lesbian for this particular category? I don't know...Seems a little weird. Thoughts? --Zuejay 05:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC) PS - I'll do the footwork if we can change this. Some others have complained about this particular cat title on the cat's discussion page.--Zuejay 05:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

That is a reallyweird cat name, IMNSHO. But even "Lesbian-related films" sounds weird to me. As a counterpoint, Category:Bisexuality-related films has 33 articles to this ones' 51. I don't know - I guess "Lesbian-related films" works okay. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs)

Oh yeah, I remember the CFD on that. It was originally "lesbian films", and people argued that this was not an appropriate category title because movies do not have a gender. I thought that was bizarre, pointed out that "lesbian film" and "lesbian novel" are terms found in academic papers, and wondered if they wanted to rename gay bar (perhaps to "gay-related edifice where alcohol-related beverages are served"), but I came to the discussion late and I'm not sure anyone else was still paying attention. I don't know what the protocol is on changing category names that have already been through CFD. —Celithemis 06:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No particular separate protocol. Just take them back through CFD again. — coelacan talk — 06:38, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Can this be a speedy rename or does anyone think it needs significant discussion? There has been no outpouring of discourse here. -Zuejay 03:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Because of the hassle of moving categories (making the new one, deleting the old one, changing all the links), bots do all the work. The only way I know of to get it tagged for bot work, however, is to put it through the standard CFD process. You can ask for a speedy close, but the bot won't be along for a few days anyway. — coelacan talk — 04:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I should clarify. "Speedy" is actually a policy classification, and it allows certain changes under certain limited circumstances. I do not think this fits any of the speedy circumstances, so even if no one opposes the renaming, it won't be speedied. Sorry, I just thought of that after I wrote my last reply. — coelacan talk — 04:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

All good to know. I'm still learning. I don't think there's really much rush on this particular rename anyway. -Zuejay 20:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Just nominated Category:Lesbianism-related films for renaming to Category:Lesbian-related films according to WP:CFD. Hope folks drop a quick line in support (or not). Thanks! Zue 00:54, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the change is fine. It doesn't seem like a huge issue though. — Emiellaiendiay 02:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Changing focus on lists.

I've decided that my optimism about completing List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/A-E sometime this year was somewhat displaced, so what I'm going to do is work on converting all the other lists to the same table format. That way we'll at least be able to cross-reference List of bisexual people, List of LGBT Jews, List of LGBT sportspeople etc. to create a really comprehensive set of lists that we can then feed all of our biographies into. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:54, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's quite possible to finish this list before the end of the year. Of course, this list will never be "finished" per se, but we can work it up to a very high level. I think now that since everything has been table-fied, refernces and images added, there are a few more tasks needed to bring this up to FA level. I know this may be laborious, but I think we should hand check every reference and make sure that it is 1)reliable (I don't doubt many of your references, but some have been dubiously added by others) and 2)properly cited per WP:CITE (I've noticed lots of references from glbtq.com which is a great resource, but most articles name the authors, which should be reflected in the citation). Additionally, I'd like to see the question marks in reference to dates filled in. I think with some of these people, a simple web search should provide us with the information. I'll begin work on this immediately. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 15:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget to check the talkpages- I removed vast numbers of uncited names a couple of months ago and listed them on the relevant talkpage so they could be restored once references had been found. If people can go through these lists and find a ref or two every now and again, it shouldn't take too long to have everything fully sourced.

P.S. To clarify IMDB and NNDB are not acceptable sources. WJBscribe 15:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the list is never going to be stable, I don't know that it's possible to go for FA status. But probobly GA is attainable. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In my definition of "stable" it's stable right now with the exception of additions. An article only becomes unstable when there are disputes, edit warring and the like. Granted, it's always a list that may grow, but I think we've becgun to do a great deal in raising it to a stable level. I did just realize that this could never be a FA as it is a list. In addition, there is not a "Good List" section. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 18:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:SPOKEN

Just to let you know, I signed up to WP:SPOKEN a while back, but had dreadful problems with my microphone. Having now dealt with that (I had to buy another computer!), once I'm done with my featured articles, I intend to set to on the LGBT FAs. If anyoen would like to join me in this, or would rather I didn't record an article you worked on, please let me know. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Bugchasing

I expressed some concern on the talk page of this article about the lack of reliable sources, as many of its sources have been actively discredited, leaving a lone documentary with no DVD release (making it difficult to use as a source) as the source for this alleged sexual practice. Could some people have a look at it before I start trying to deal with the somewhat sketchy verification of this? Phil Sandifer 23:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Added reference to Sissy page

I found a BBC article on homophobia and sissys. Cleara --Allyn 05:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be this diff for those who are wondering. — coelacan talk — 06:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

New tag format?

What do y'all think of this version of a talk-page tag? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:05, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Kinda dull, and not very complete. Our tag gives a lot more info about the article. Ours is prettier, too. Jeffpw 06:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I bring it up because some pages have an absolute glut of wikiproject tags, which clutters the talk page and makes it difficult to wade through. This version would still have all our stuff (and prettiness) in it (click the "show" link). And it would still "tag" the article with the project name. We might even work in either the flag or the ribbon-barnstar that Dev came up with — a small image, anyway. There's a template development group that's coming up with ways to unclutter multiple wikiproject banners, and this is one of the results. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 06:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of a streamlined, narrower tag a lot- some pages are very tagcluttered and tags like these would sure make the talk pages neater. I'd love to have a tiny rainbow flag on ours, though. -FisherQueen (Talk) 13:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, after seeing the show link, which I missed in my comatose state this morning, it seems ok to me. But like FQ said, I would sincerely like our flag on the template. Jeffpw 15:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I really don't like it. MILHIST need a smaller banner because theirs are massive with a bajillon different options: ours don't. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way for those pages with a glut of banners, there always {{skiptotoc}}. That's what I do when I see that sort of mess on a talk page. Jeffpw 16:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

And I certainly didn't propose and implement the small parameter for nothing. :) Just convert them all to small templates if it's getting too large. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeh, MILHIST needs a clue. FILM is another one - they have this checklist of "things to do to make this article a <next>-class article" that shows up for each one, depending on what class it is. And it's usually a list of five or ten things. But the point with them is that we can't go in and re-design their banner - we can only reduce the clutter with our banner. Going weth "small" isn't always an option, since not all projects have implemented that option. Anyway, this is one of the things being kicked around. I think, if we put in the flag, it's not a bad option. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs)

Abraham Lincoln

You are invited to the Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln and Talk:Sexuality of Abraham Lincoln to discuss the issues. Wjhonson 07:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Looks the dispute stem from the fact this article needs a bit of work on the NPOV front, with a suggestion that the combination of sourced information may be OR. Jimbo has expressed a view here for those interested. Those with past issues with Knowpedia might wish to tread carefully. WjBscribe 18:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As an FYI, Knowpedia is alluding to a potential third AfD on the article. I don't know serious of an intention that is but it is something to keep an eye on. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 05:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Members

We broke 100! YAY! But, I'm noticing only SatyrTN has risen to my challenge and invited five members. Come on, more people do it! *prods every member who hasn't done it* Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I tried... and gave up. How do you find users to invite? I've browsed history pages of LGBT-related articles, but to no avail. — Emiellaiendiay 02:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

That's what I did - I picked a couple articles, scoured their history for editors in the past year or so, reviewed their user and talk pages, and maybe edit histories, and then made the invitation. It's rather time-consuming! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You guys are making me feel bad, not doing more than "keeping my eye on ya". hehehe. Let me know when 104 signs up, I'll be 105. Not before then - evens are unlucky numbers for me. ;) ZueJay^talk 06:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I admit, it is more difficult than it used to be - unfortunately I seem to have recruited most of the major contributors. :) But I'm still finding people, so I'm not giving up yet... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

You can say that again! It took me forty minutes to find three eligible editors that I could invite to join us... I would typically find the perfect contributor and see you'd already invited him/her (Wuzzy comes to mind). :) Cheers Raystorm 23:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I invited five yesterday, so good editors who haven't yet been invited are definitely still out there. And it's a shame Wuzzy stopped editing back in April. I'd email them, but they haven't got it enabled. I don't think there's an LGBT article they haven't edited.... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Watchall list

Ok, Ingrid created one at Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Articles. I've created another userbox for it:

This user tries to monitor the
LGBT Watchall list.

All Ok? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yay, thank you, Ingrid, for making it! — Emiellaiendiay 23:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Add to To do list

Is the list automated? Or when we've got articles we'd like help on, do we just add 'em on? In particular, I started an article on Claire of the Moon which I've actually never seen. little man will have to be next (which I've also never seen - gee, think I get out much?), and then the bio for Nicole Conn needs work. So, anyhoo, help on these'd be great; and info on how to add to the "To-do list". Thanks, ZueJay^talk 06:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's automated by Satyrbot. To activate it, make sure the article is tagged both with our banner and a suitable cleanup banner. Satyrbot should then add it to the to-do list when it runs. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

"Suspected" LGBT people

(cross-posted from Portal talk:LGBT/Categories) While we are all eager to claim back our own, it seems that some people are not so keen to let us to so. I have come across several biographical articles where there has been "allegations" of homosexual relationships or intrest but with little proof available, the resolution of the question being subject to interpretation. I am thinking for example about Anne of Great Britain, Jarosław Kaczyński or Caravaggio (see discussion pages) or even Winston Churchill.

Or Abraham Lincoln, perhaps? --Viannah 23:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Would it be useful to create a category (and a suitable name would have to be found for it like "People with disputed sexual orientation" for example) which would indicate that the sexual orientation of the person has been questioned in some way?--Zefrog 22:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Is there anybody whose sexuality has not at some point been questioned in some way? WjBscribe 22:46, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Peter Tatchell? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

A Saint of the Sisters - you're probably right, Dev! Definitely a hero in my book :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 07:30, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Zefrog, I'm sure that whatever the good intentions behind such a category, it would be abused thoroughly by all manner of POV-pushers and scattershot vandals. I think I can say with confidence that the category would not survive its first WP:CFD. The much more important thing than having a person in a particular wikipedia category is to have all the relevent sourcees in the article with a NPOV summary of their contents. — coelacan talk — 07:10, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

First of all if you get 100 self identifying LGBT men 100 women, and the same ratio of heterosexual men and women and asked them all to define homosexuality you are going to get about 400 different definitions. attributing one's identity ("I'm gay" or "I'm straight") based on ones sexual preferences ("I prefer sex with the same sex", etc) then you hit some rational walls (FYI, I think summing up ones's identifty based on their actions is nutty but that's another subject) How many same sex acts does it take to be considered a homosexual or to be bisexual. And as WJBscribe wisely stated above who has not asked themselves some questiosn at some point in their life.

My reason for writing here is that we have had numerous well intentioned editors drop by the Ted Haggard article and add him to one of the many LGBT categories. Keep in mind Ted has admitted to "sexual immorality" but has not publicly claimed to be homosexual or bisexual but based on overwhelming evidence the guy has been having naked, same sex fun with Mike Jones for 3 years or more. After some discussion it was decided that without either Ted claiming to be homosexual (or bisexual) it would be original research to add him to one of the LGBT categories. Perfectly fine to call him gay or bi on a blog or whatnot but for Wikipedia to make this claim by adding him to a LGBT category gives the appearance that Wikipedia is deciding who is gay/bi and who is not. It also reeks of outing people which is not a part of the Wikipedia scope. So I think great care and consideration needs to be given prior to adding people to these types of categories as well as Wikipedia would do well to clarify some of their own policies (or make them easier to find/uncover). So far we have not had any editing wars, though a few spirited discussions. After all this rambling I actually have a question - is their a policy regarding adding people to categories in general and is there one on adding them to a LGBT related cat? If one does not exist we'd do well to create it. Thanks Mr Christopher 22:11, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I can't answer your question, Mr. Christopher, but I have a question of my own for you: If the good Lord Jesus Christ just turned Mr. Haggard into a heterosexual, as I recently read in both the NY Times and the Washington Post, what was he before the divine intervention if not gay or bi????? Yours in puzzlement, Jeffpw 22:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeffpw, you actually make a good point. Haggard's "handlers" are now saying he is 100% heterosexual (amazing the power of prayer...) yet Haggard himself has not made this claim. So again, do we categorize anyone we want as gay or bi simply because we think so? Mr Christopher 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, a few of us have been working to cleanup and reform the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people. One of the things we are trying to do is make sure that every entry has a reliable reference. Having looked at the categories, I know there are numerous people who would not be included on this list for lack of reliable references. I'm of the opinion that once the entire list has been properly worked through (which could take years), then categories should be scoured using the list. Basically, if someone is included on the list and has reliable references, then they would be included in the category. That way the issue that has arisen with Mr. Haggard will not continue to pop up. Of course, this works marvelously with living subjects, but as seen in the discussion above, there are issues with dead subjects where there is evidence but no actual admittal. I think, however, with subjects like Mr. Haggard where there is an issue of sexuality, that there should be a Project tag on the talk page. Sorry to ramble... *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 22:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Ganymead, we have discussed this some too. We have references that he had homosexual relations for several years, but does that give us as wiki editors the right to decide he is in fact gay or bi? That is my dilemma. And if so what is the threshold for "gayness"? If I have sex with my neighbor (please don't make me, he's dreadful to look at) am I now bi? If I have sex with him once a year for 20 years am I gay? It seems to me that a rational approach would be to categorize those who self identify as being gay or bi and otherwise simply quote neutral, reliable sources and avoid categorizing them but I look forward to the imput of others. Mr Christopher 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, the project tag on an article does not imply that the subject itself is gay or bi, but rather is a "person of interest" to the project. For instance, Anita Bryant has our tag on her talk page, for her significant contribution to LGBT history. The reasoning is similar for Mr. Haggard. We're not saying he's gay simply because he had sex with a gay male prostitute regularly for over 3 years. We're saying the fact that he had gay sex and got outed for it makes him a person of interest to a project covering LGBT issues. Jeffpw 23:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

And to answer your question above, Mr Christopher, we have the Manual of Style - Identity section to answer to. If the don't self-identify as LGBT (in the case of living persons), they're not considered LGBT. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, of course, that there's quite a bit riding on either side about whether or not haggard is gay or never gay, etc. as someone who argued previously for haggard to be considered gay, i think now its best to keep him as not labeled until he writes his nytimes bestseller autobio in which we get all the ecstatic details of trashy sex that i cannot for a second imagine was any fun or good. --Chalyres 23:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

In all fairness, it probably seemed fun and good at the time, given all the crystal meth he wasn't imbibing. Jeffpw 23:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Infobox film.

WikiProject Film is on a drive to add infoboxes to every film articles. I have used AWB to create a list of LGBT films that need the infobox. Some also need general cleanup, separating of film and play, and assessing. The list is here - it's not linked because I have been working on this list for THREE HOURS and do not want to do any more. Please help me in fixing all these boxes, remove articles when they have infoboxes and are tagged with our banner. I'm going to have dinner and lie quietly in this corner now... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I've linked the list. I'll try to help with the infoboxes. Cheers and enjoy your dinner :-) Raystorm 22:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, the infobox to be added is this:

{{Infobox Film | name = | image = | image_size = | caption = | director = | producer = | writer = | narrator = | starring = | music = | cinematography = | editing = | distributor = | released = | runtime = | country = | language = | budget = | preceded_by = | followed_by = | website = | amg_id = | imdb_id = }}

Each should be on a separate line, as you can see if you edit this Talk page.

— Emiellaiendiay 23:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Question

This is going to sound like such a newbie question...I run across a user that asked why the LGBT template goes in a talkpage instead of on top of the article in question, 'so everyone can see it better'. I told him that's the way it's done, and offered some kind of lame explanation. Does anyone know exactly which policy says that templates should go on talkpages? Cheers Raystorm 14:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Since the project tags are about the article rather than about the subject, they're put on the talk page. Any article that has our tag on the talk page should already have some indication in the article itself, so the tag would just be clutter to the average reader. But I haven't done any research in the WikiProjects docs to back that up. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

A WikiProject and by extension banners, are an internal wikiprocess and meant to be used only by people working "behind the scenes". They have nothing to do with an actual encyclopedia entry, thus it would be as inappropriate to put our banners on the main page as it would be to hold a conversation on it. The templates which are placed on the talkpage, such as NPOV or cleanup templates, are there to warn a reader that the article is in some way flawed or unhelpful. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:45, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! That really helps! :-) Cheers Raystorm 16:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Coordinator Elections

Voting now open on election subpage

After a brief delay, the subpage for voting on the first Coordinator for WikiProject LGBT (see above here if you have no idea what I'm talking about. In the nature of true democracy there is only candidate. Who appears to have been nominated by the user officiating over the election...

Anyway, if you want to show your appreciation for Dev920's work for this project and to endorse her acting as our coordinator in future. Please do so at: the election page. Yipee! If you would like to express contrary views, that is also the page to it. Happy voting- I've kept it to 5 days 7 days (per later discussion) as we have only one candidate and there seems little reason to draw it out. WjBscribe 17:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I know this is just an endorsement, and not really an election, but maybe we shouldn't have such a short time limit for voting. I think it'd be better to give a real chance for all the members of the project to vote here. I mean, we're 100+ members. Getting more than 50% support from all of us will be the best endorsement Dev can get, and I'm not sure if just 5 days is time enough for it. I know it is not necessary for Dev to get more than 50% (right?), but I think it'd help to validate her position. :-) You know, so no one can complain about the democratic process (which you wittily pointed out) later. Does it make sense? I'm aware it can be a bit bothersome to draw out a bit the election period for everyone involved (especially Dev), so it's just a suggestion. Cheers Raystorm 18:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, um, could we have simple approval voting, without opposes or neutrals? Like MILHIST do? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I guess we should- but not sure how that works with only one candidate... How long do people think the election should last? Should I make it a week? Longer? WjBscribe 18:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

If we don't get a bot to notify all members (as we've discussed elsewhere), I suggest about 10 days. Cheers Raystorm 19:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful! Then I guess 7 days should be enough. :-) Cheers Raystorm 02:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

How about we let it go five days as planned and see what proportion have voted? We can easily extend it if it seems necessary... WjBscribe 02:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Okie dokie. I was just thinking that some members may log on only on weekends when I proposed 7 days, but you're right, let's see how it goes now that everyone has got a notice... Raystorm 02:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

PS:The notice says 7 days. Raystorm 02:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Then we'll make it 7 for consistency (easier to change it here than on everyone's talkpages). WjBscribe 02:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

CfD attention

I very much urge project members to engage in this discussion and contribute their thoughts.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 18:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It's already on the open tasks template and WP:DSSG. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

She's Real, Worse Than Queer

I've just tagged She's Real, Worse Than Queer with the tag for this project. Currently there is a deletion nomination for this film, so if anyone knows about it, chime in at the AfD discussion! − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone besides me and Coelecan check the open task template and deletion sorting page? That AfD has been up there since I nominated it. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:14, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Sort of puts the lie to the WP:CANVASS and wikiprojects issue, doesn't it? :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I only looked today, Dev, and then I went and voted against you. That puts the lie to votestacking, too, apparently. :-) Jeffpw 15:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

SatyrTN, are you saying I am canvassing? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't know canvassing if it bit me in the canvass. :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Which is why it's still important to figure out some clear guidelines on this. =) WjBscribe proposed some up the page at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Notification of AfDs etc... I'm directing everyone's attention up there to try to get some more discussion. By those proposals, I would say that Twas Now was not canvassing, but anyway I'd like to see something finalized and plastered in the appropriate places. — coelacan talk — 06:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well one of the key elements of WP:CANVASS is that posts to partisan audiences are problematic. Given that project members voted both ways in that AfD, I don't think there's a problem. Still these issues are going to keep coming up quite often. I welcome thoughts on how to make the guidelines I set out above (which everyone seemed to generally agree with) more prominent. WjBscribe 07:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm New

Greetings everyone, I'm fairly new to the WikiProject LGBT Studies. I have yet to make any contributions to the articles as I have been reading some of them to try and get a feel for the general mood in LGBT. To further assist me in this I have frequented the discussion pages and made a small number of contributions there.

If anything I am cautious when it comes to things related to LGBT concerns. Admittedly I am a Transexual, although I have yet to begin my transformation from m to f, nor have I had any contact with other transexuals. This is due, in no small part, to the fact that I live in rural Central Louisiana not far from Texas. In this area people such as myself are social pariahs. We literally walk on eggshells around here.

When it comes to transexuality I understand it from my own perspective and research on the internet. While I don't claim to be an authority on the subject at large I do claim authority as it pertains to me. Also, I have gained considerable understanding as on the subject of transexuality and the bible. My faith has always been important to me and only recently I was able to find a balance with it and who I am.

Now all I have to do is strike a balance with my parents. My mom is beginning to accept me, but only as a homosexual and not transexual. My dad, well we don't talk about it, its pretty much a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude with him. At any rate that is the no frills version of my story. I look forward to when I am able to make good and accurate contributions to LGBT Studies. --Clay 12:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the project, Clay. =) I see from your user page that you're also Episcopalian. Might you be interested in helping me add some content to Bishop Gene Robinson's article? I just added a photograph there and noticed that the coverage is heavily slanted toward scandal. I'd like to add positive citations, like about his work fighting the AIDS epidemic in Africa, and whatever other stuff got him promoted to Bishop. I'll be picking over the article in the next few days and I could use a hand. — coelacan talk — 01:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I might be, I'll have to do some research on Bishop Robinson. All I really know about him is from what I've read in my diocese's newspaper and tv news. All of it was less than flattering. The American Anglican Network of Churches (of which I'm on their email list just so I know what they're up to) has steadily been gaining ground. Their endorsement by the Archbishop of Canterbury and his condemnation of the ECUSA seems to indicate he is prepared to recognize the AAN as the "successor" (I guess you could call it that) to the ECUSA. The Anglican Communion is so slanted against LGBTs it would seem they want to promote excluding us altogether. At any rate look forward to cooperating with you in this endeavor. --Clay 07:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Same-sex marriage

Someone has added a "Discussion" bit that seems inappropriate to me. Do we have to leave it, archive it, or can it be dumped. Please check it out at the bottom of the page here. Thanks ZueJay^talk 17:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay...precisely a minute after I asked this, someone removed the section citing "no useful contribution" to the article and/or article discussion. Guess that's resolved. ZueJay^talk 17:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I second that removal. Pure trolling. No suggestion whatsoever about how the article should be improved. Just someone's personal rant about issue related to same-sex marriage. WjBscribe 17:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Or not related. Green cars? AIDS? Hmph. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Took me a minute to realize someone had already gotten rid of it, but I agree with the removal. It was just someone venting their slpeen. ParAmmon (cheers thanks a lot!) 17:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

And promoting a personal webpage. Sheesh. Raystorm 17:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Sorry I had to bring it up here - it was listed for several hours and had me fidgeting. ZueJay^talk 18:13, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

ZueJay, for your future reference, the relevent guideline here is WP:TALK, specifically "Keep on topic: Talk pages are not for general conversation. Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." That's useful for determining what to remove as well as to cite when someone whinges about the removal. Talk pages are only for discussing improvements to the article, not for discussing the subject of the article. That doesn't mean that every single piece of off-topic blather must be removed on sight, but if anything is detracting from the actual discussion of improving the encyclopedia, it's cartainly fair game. — coelacan talk — 02:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Thanks, that's what I really needed to know. It's not always easy to find the relevant policy guidelines without reading every single bit of WP:MOS. I'll be adding WP:TALK to my shortcuts list. ZueJay^talk 02:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Over-infoboxification

A creeping issue on Wikipedia is evident in the Freedom to Marry article and the Lambda Legal article - over-infoboxification. On these articles 2e have an LGBT portal box, an LGBT Rights box, and an LGBT Queer studies box. Why do we need three boxes for what arguably is the same topic? I think these should be combined into one box - many of the same topics are covered in the latter two boxes. These boxes are vying for space on relatively short articles, displacing images of the subjects/concepts, and, generally, junk up the page. One infoxbox is not so bad - but three? --DavidShankBone 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

This is indeed becoming a problem and one that can easily be addressed. We should work on combining Template:LGBT with Template:Gay rights. The first will always be needed where the first is present. I suggest either:

1. A combined template in the style of Template:LGBT with a fuller rights section;
2. Change Template:Gay rights to incorporate all the info in Template:LGBT so it becomes an alternative to the general template (not an addition to it); or
3. Giving Template:LGBT a "rights" parameter that can be enable on rights-related articles to add more links to other rights-related articles.

In any events Gay rights should be LGBT rights. What do people think is the better option? WjBscribe 18:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge! And I'll up you one and call it over-infoboxificationitis ! Who made the other boxes, can we get them to join our party over here? Wjhonson 18:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• A combined template I think is the way to go per #1 or #3. But I think instead of a right-sided info-box we should employ a bottom-screen version. Many of the LGBT articles are short, that on some a large info-box that doesn't relate to the article itself can shifted the article information or make the page look too cluttered. What I like better is what I see on the New York City subway articles (example: Queens Plaza (IND Queens Boulevard Line). Although I think their right-sided info-box is too wide, it at least is relevant to the article at hand. Whereas the more generalized "New York City subway" portal box is at the bottom, which makes the article itself look fuller. --DavidShankBone 19:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

And having a bottom-oriented (no pun intended) info-portal won't mess up infoboxes such as those found on Evan Wolfson --DavidShankBone 19:06, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I concur with the bottom oriented boxes, they work much better. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 19:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a bottom with "rights" parameter. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

So we need to create the *aherm* LGBT bottom box? Sigh. OK :-). I'll have a go at a draft- Satyr I may (i.e. will) need help with the parameter bit- my coding isn't up to that. WjBscribe 23:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Who knew infoboxes could be so saucy? :p Anyways...I want to throw my support to the infobox merging as well as throw out the idea about trimming them as well. I'm curious as to if there are some "catch all" links that can be placed in the info box that would list things like the "Culture topics" without having a wiki-link to every one and etc. Just something to trim down the relative size of the info box. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 23:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

First attempt

OK guys, check out User:WJBscribe/Drafts. Please improve it- I just wanted to make a start. All comments welcome. WjBscribe 00:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• Happy post-Valentine's Day hangover everybody; glad I have off today. I think this bottom-box is banging! Looks great! I like that we can see more potential for it now that it's bottom-oriented. I'm going to push my luck: I personally don't care for the rainbow flag. Just aesthetically, it's never been pleasing to me. I know the long, storied history of it from the Rainbow flag page, but would anybody rather see the pink triangle? I would. It also has a good history, one specific to us, and its use is now a source of pride, but it might also educate the casual viewer that we died in the concentration camps as well. I don't think a lot of people know that. Regardless, I just like the way the triangle looks, more than the rainbow flag. Just throwing it out there. --DavidShankBone 15:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I may be completely wrong but I don't think the pink triangle relates much to transgendered people. Also the pink triangle is not entirely uncontroversial given its orgins. Its one thing in userboxes where people an choose to use it or not but I'm not sure I'm as comfortable seeing it in the mainspace. The rainbow flag is the symbol of the LGBT community and I think it should definitely be used. Thoughts from anyone else? WjBscribe 17:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe put the portal under the title? Makes it more prominent, but also gets rid of that empty bar? --DavidShankBone 15:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Another version is available here. The difference being a parameter for each of the sections "rights", "history", and "culture". Those sections can be turned off or on for individual articles. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• I like the first because the history and culture stuff is already covered in the categories bar. Bottoms up! --DavidShankBone 21:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • You don't need to choose a favourite with Satyr's version. If you edit the page you will see that those are all versions of the same template. It allows you to have extra detail on the topics relevant to the article its on. e.g. more history links on history topics or more rights links on rights topics. WjBscribe 21:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Ah, I understand. --DavidShankBone 21:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

What now?

OK, Satyr has converted the template I designed into the all-singing-all-dancing version that can be changed depending on the article its used on: User:SatyrTN/LGBT footer.
The following questions now arise:

1. Do people like it and should we move it to projectspace so it can be used on articles?
2. Are we abandoning the old templates?

As to point (2), my suggestion would be to slowly phase them out. Each time we visit an LGBT article with the old templates on, we have a think about whether it would be better to unclutter the article and use the LGBT bottom box^TM instead and change if necessary. Be bold though. There doesn't seem any reason to run around now changing every single article, but in the long run I think its best to keep these sorts of portal-style templates at the end. WjBscribe 00:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• 1. Yes, and move to projectspace. 2. Abandon old templates and slowly phase out. --DavidShankBone 01:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• Are we planning on replacing all of the separate templates including bisexuality and transgender with one mega-footer, which drops the odd article that was in the now deprecated templates? I'm concerned that this may overload stub and start class articles just as badly as the existing right-side templates. It also has the risk of further alienating people such as transgender who object the the term "queer studies". This is why the separate, more focussed teplates were created in the first place. I'd still favour having a set of templates, just have them all in footer form. I'm already having problems with random users coming along and removing the transgender template from articles because it is "too intrusive". Oh, and rather than calling it a "bottom box", I'd suggest "footer". --AliceJMarkham 22:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

  Hi Alice, let me address a few of your points:

  1. The footer is intended primarily to replace: {{LGBT}} and {{Gay rights}}.
  2. In any event, the change should be progressive. If there's a good argument for sticking to one of the old template on an article, we should do so.
  3. I think the important thing is to have more templates in footer form, if a specific transgendered footer would be useful, one should be created.
  4. To clarify the name of the template will be {{LGBT footer}}. The term bottom box was purely a joke that arose from discussion on this page. It won't be the name of the template (though it may stick as a nickname, I'm afraid).

  Hope that clears things up. I had no idea there was a problem with the term "queer studies", can someone explain? WjBscribe 22:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

• In Australia, the term queer is an very derogatory term for a gay male, which is often associated with homophobic violence. The majority of cross dressers are heterosexual males, some of whom are very vocal in trying to distance themselves from homosexuality. If you attach the word queer to anything related to cross-dressing, they take it as a personal insult. The same applies to some transsexuals. It can get very ugly at times, with such people arguing that transgender has nothing to do with LGB "because it's not about sexual orientation like they are". Based on those experiences, I do not use the word queer anywhere near transgender subjects! --AliceJMarkham 01:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• OK, that's clearer. Has this been discussed before as it seems kind of important? The present title on those boxes is "LGBT and Queer studies series". According to Wikipedia, Queer studies is "the study of issues relating to sexual orientation and gender identity". If the term queer is nonetheless controversy to some areas, is it necessary to have a reference to queer studies in the template? Why not call the new template "Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender series"? WjBscribe 02:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

• Hi Alice - Queer in the United States was also a very derogatory term. It was adopted in the same way as the word nigga was adopted in the black community here - to take the sting out of it, we used it ourselves. The histories and reasons may not be exactly parallel for the phrases to have been co-opted by the communities. That said, I see no reason it needs to be there. I don't know many gay people who say "Queer studies" or queer anything. It's mostly used for political force, in my experience. --DavidShankBone 03:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I like the word Queer. It's second meaning on wiktionary is "non-heterosexual", and the etymology is "off center". And that's besides the reclaiming aspect of using the word. But that's just my $0.02. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 09:06, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

What's the 411 on the bottom boxes?

Did we decide to introduce them to appropriate articles? --DavidShankBone 23:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, {{LGBT-footer}} see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies#Footer template. WjBscribe 23:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I replaced the Lambda Legal gay portal, but left the rights box. Put bottom box on Evan Wolfson. I think the right-side box looks better on the nebulous Gay and Lesbian pages. But on ones like Freedom to Marry I think the bottom box looks better. --DavidShankBone 00:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Assessment and A-class articles

What is the process for rating an article as A-class? Does it have to go through peer review? Can anyone assign an A-class rating? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I was looking over the higher ends of the assessment this morning and thinking the same thing. I think we need to make sure that all A-class articles have achieved GA status. I know I have misslabeled a few articles as A-class thinking that it was under GA-class. Certainly, there may also be some GA-class articles that could jump up to A-class, though I think they probably should undergo an official peer review with this project before that is changed. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 18:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like to see Evan Wolfson's assessment increased. --DavidShankBone 18:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I have just given Evan Wolfson a glance. The article looks like it wouldn't need much work to nominate as a GA (thus raising its assessment). I'll give it a through once over and make some suggestions on the talk page. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 19:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

So silly me didn't realize A was above GA. Doh! So B-class articles should next go through GA nomination to raise them any further. Gotcha! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 19:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I was in the same boat until yesterday. I think that bottom-oriented infobox discussion has been distracting me the past few days. :-) *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 20:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

There's still a good question here. Assuming that an article is already GA class, in what circumstances do we rate it as A class? Should a project member do that themselves, or do we need an peer review? I would prefer the peer review route. If we're thinking of rating something A we should be thinking about nominating it for FA so it should have a rigorous examination from a number of editors. Once the peer review criticisms are addressed, we rate it A and go for the FA nom...? WjBscribe 07:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

That sounds about right. A "Good Article" is one that the members of the WP community have reviewed and labeled good, while an "A" class would have the WikiProject (presumably "experts" in a subject) reviewing it, and then FA would have the additional review by a broad range of WP editors. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 09:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, I feel a guideline coming to fruition here... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 09:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Random Announcement

Okay, um, this doesn't really have anything to do with LBGT studies, but, User:Dev920 has been nominated for a Wikihalo, and you can vote here . . . [7] WereWolf 23:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I am honoured. :) You're such a nice bloke, WereWolf. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Um, sorry for the stupid question...but what's a wikihalo? What is it for? :-) Raystorm 11:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It's a Community Award. Basically, it's like a Barnstar that everyone can vote on. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 11:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I see. Like a bunch of people voting to give you a barnstar. Um, wouldn't you rather receive a barnstar from each of those people instead, and hoard them on your userpage? :-) Raystorm 13:24, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it would be easier, but this is an award that shows that the user who won it is one of the best Wikipedia has ever seen. This "barnstar" is one of the best awards a user can win. WereWolf 17:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Update and challenge

Just to let you all know, I haven't randomly vanished during Coord elections, it's halfterm and I just got two guinea pigs! I'm doing some work behind the scenes - contacting the Comms manager and LGBT mags and suchlike. I'm still religiously checking my watchlist, so if you need to contact me go ahead.

In the meantime, I notice we have only gained 23 members this month! So I renew my challenge (except to SatyrTN and Emiellaiendiay, who rose to it!) - go find 5 LGBT article editors to invite to the project! Go forth my pretties and fly! Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 00:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I did invite 4 or 5 editors too, with such poor results that I'm gonna accept the challenge again. :-) Dammit, I'm gonna get at least one to join the project! Raystorm 13:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

List of transgendered people

List of transgendered people. This list had somehow escaped the project's tagging effort until now. It needs a lot of work to bring up to standard. A few concerns with it are:

1. Its a mess
2. No entry is sourced
3. There are redlinks (are these people notable?)

The aim is to create something akin to: List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people/A-E. But in the short term just tidying it and maky sure there are referecnes would be good! If people wish to work on these it would be much appreciated. WjBscribe 05:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Since lists of people must also conform to WP:BLP, any unsourced controversial material should be removed immediately. If the statement about them being transgendered is sourced on their article's page, just copy the citation over.

As for the redlinks, it has to be done on a case-by-case basis. Most of those people look notable, but some may not be.

It actually isn't that much of a mess - I've seen far, far worse lists out there. The only thing I would change would be combining the lists of living and dead people. Or at least the early and late groups of deceased. Koweja 06:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems like double work to add a citation to the person's article and to the list. Why is it no acceptable to just say "look at their article for references"? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

When I first tried doing that with A-E, they kept being removed for "lack of references". I gave up. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 14:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be a pain in the butt, but I think it's better. Without the requirement of sourcing in both places, people can be added to the list who aren't sourced in their articles, and it's even more of a pain to check the articles and see if the source is there (sometimes article "owners" delete that stuff, sometimes it was never there). And at least for some people (like me) a list is more aesthetically and psychologically satisfying (seems trustworthy) when it's directly sourced. It can be a buffer against future AFD. — coelacan talk — 19:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Each article should be able to stand on its own, I guess. Also, it helps control unsourced information since you don't have to check each article - you just delete anything that doesn't have a source. If the other two lists of LGBT people survive AFD then we can't start working on it, but if they get deleted then this one will most likely go up next. Koweja 23:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

If you'll excuse a bit of crystal-balling from "Mystic Will": If those lists get deleted they will be up in WP:DRV for a week. Trialsanderrors will probably then relist it at AfD. Then it'll be debated for another week. The ultimate outcome will be no consensus. Ah, the joy of limbo... WjBscribe 23:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

About tagging homophobes

Hi there. I was wondering if homophobes came under the interest of this project (wait to hear my reasoning before automatically saying yes please). I went to check Tim Hardaway and saw his article had been recently tagged by us. I saw a discussion about this fact there too (hi Coelacan!). Aside from making sure that his homophobic views are present in the article, are we really gonna try to add to it further and make it a FA? Which technically is our aim in every article we tag. One thing is to patrol a homophobe's article to make sure no one has deleted that info, and another to say the project wants to improve the article further, right? I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear. :-) I just wanted to have a mini-debate on the issue here, if nobody minds, and hear other opinions. Cheers! Raystorm 13:48, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I feel it is important to tag homophobe's articles, not because we want to necessarily improve them to FA status (that's just not possible with every article on Wiki), but to provide our readers with pointers to all aspects of LGBT history on Wikipedia. People who come to our portal need to be able to find all subjects in an easy manner. I presume we have a category for homophobes. If not, one should be created. Jeffpw 13:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if a category titled Homophobes would survive CfD. Though I agree that we need a cat along those lines. I just can't think of wording that wouldn't be labeled POV, BLP-slander, etc. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

True, but I feel that LGBT history has happened in spite of homophobes... ;-) It's not as if they contributed or anything to the LGBT movement. You see where I'm going? Raystorm 14:36, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Homophobes still had/have an impact of LGBT issues, so it is relevant. I suppose we could say only tag the homophobes that had a significant impact on LGBT issues/history. Koweja 17:46, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Homophobes certainly have an impact on the LGBT movement. Look at the uproar over the Hardaway outburst. It's opened up a huge dialogue in professional sports. - ParAmmon (cheers thanks a lot!) 18:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Then the Catholic Church, for example, should also be tagged? And The Bible? And The Pope? Raystorm 22:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Pope Benedict is not homophobic, he's a lovely, kind, thoughtful man and does not come under the scope of our project in any form.

Basically, I think the best thing to do is only tag people who have based their career on targetting gays. So Fred Phelps yes, Tim Hardaway no. Jarosław Kaczyński yes, Isaiah Washington no. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:19, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was aiming for the previous one (J.P. II), but this one did say a few interesting things a propos same-sex marriage in Spain (I know because I had to research it). :-) Your approach does make sense, but except for Catholics and right-wing politicians, I don't think the homophobes out there base their career in targetting homosexuals, right? Does this mean, btw, I should go tag the George W. Bush article? ;-) Raystorm 22:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

"Pope Benedict is not homophobic, he's a lovely, kind, thoughtful man and does not come under the scope of our project in any form." I beg your pardon... Maybe I missed something but I guess someone else made the comment about homosexuality being "intrinsic moral evil" and that "the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder". And I guess some other leader of the Catholic church has opposed gay marriage in Spain. And a different pope described the new inheritance rights for same-sex couples in Italy as subversive [8]. I'm sorry but if we adopt a policy of labeling homophobes as within this project's scope, Ratzinger comes pretty high on my list. WjBscribe 04:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Many homophobes certainly base their beliefs and actions on the Church doctrine. Raystorm 11:46, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

From here: "The Catholic Church considers Human sexual behavior that it sees as properly expressed to be sacred, almost sacramental in nature. Anal intercourse and homogenital acts are considered sinful because sexual acts, by their nature, are meant to be both unitive and procreative (mirroring God's inner Trinitarian life). The Church also understands the complementarity of the sexes to be part of God's plan. Same-gender sexual acts are incompatible with this framework:

"[H]omosexual acts are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" ([15]).

These teachings are, of course, not limited to the issue of homosexuality, but is also the general background for the Catholic prohibitions against, for example, fornication, contraception, pornography, anal sex and masturbation.

To be sure, the Church has clearly stated that homosexual desires or attractions themselves are not necessarily sinful. They are said to be "disordered" in the sense that they tempt one to do something that is sinful (i.e., the homosexual act), but temptations beyond one's control are not considered sinful in and of themselves." He doesn't dislike gays for being gay, he dislikes all forms of sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage. Which is stupid (and presumably means he hasn't masturbated for 79 years), but not homophobic. And given that upwards of 50% of all Catholic priests are gay, he can't really be all that homophobic if he goes and consorts with them for 50 years, can he? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 10:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Racism in the LGBT community

I am trying to get this article to be neutral. It is full of information gleaned from biased homophobes, like Scott Lively. The article has changed drastically since I edited it but I hope to make it better, it's still in need of some work. --Revolución hablar ver 12:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Would anyone mind if we made this May's COTM? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 12:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea, Dev. I actually read it a month or so ago and found it fascinating, if a bit problematic. I didn't have the patience to improve it, but as a collaborative effort, it would be ideal. Jeffpw 14:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Continued Nkras vandalism

Some of you may have noted a recent problem with deletion of LGBT and gender studies templates from articles and their talkpages. I believe that the IPs doing this belong to a blocked user (User:Nkras) who was indefinitely blocked for his disruptive behaviour (mainly on Marriage and related pages) see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive193#Nkras. He now seems to feel he needs to remove templates because the two Wikiprojects are "inherently POV pushing". The following IPs seem to have been used by him:

• 71.34.20.31 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 71.34.19.220 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 75.73.8.22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 63.228.40.145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

If anyone is or becomes aware of other accounts making the same sort of edits, could they list them here? It may be necessary for further action to be taken if this pattern of edits continues. Thanks, WjBscribe 18:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Ah, is that him? That makes sense. Have any IPs been blocked yet? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:55, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The top three are all on 24/31 hour blocks. My basis for believing it to be Nkras is that a number of them have early edits quibbling with Coelacan as to whether the Nkras block was a block or a ban and that the article edits around the deletions are the same as those he used to make. If he carries on, I'd like to have as much evidence as possible to request indef blocks of the IPs (it doesn't look as if they're shared). WjBscribe 19:02, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

"disruptive behaviour"? IOW, dissenting and challenging the authority of the protected editors, articles, and WikiProjects. I tried to play the game, however, members of my socio-political and religious caste aren't welcome here. We challenge the prevailing groupthink. There are even editors who smugly delete posts and remove traces of editors - well - former editors - in a way that parallels the fate of those who defied the State in 1984. Because Google search results present Wikipedia articles at the top of the heap, with the control of articles on core social issues as marriage, et. al., by the cultural left, post-modernists, LGBT and GS or what ever you call them this millenia, it is all the more insidious. I take this threat to objective truth very seriously, as I do with the aggregious insult to my religion by coelacan. I have been called to account for my political and religious views, but protected editors - coelacan being one example - has never been blocked for a clear violation of WP:CIVIL. That is why your rules and policies are not binding upon me. 63.228.54.148 05:00, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Coordinator

Just to announce the (unsurprising) result of the LGBT project coordinator elections: Dev920 is now the project's coordinator. Congratulations! WjBscribe 19:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Yay, more work! Hehe, no really, I'm honoured that you have such trust in me, and thank you to everyone who voted. I just hope I can keep up! In three months time I've no doubt we'll be needing assistant coordinators... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

GA reviewer needed

I'm having a head to head in Jumpaclass and I've just nominated Trembling Before G-d for GA status. The backlog at GA is quite long though, so I'd appreciate it if someone could review for GA status today if possible, as today the head to head ends. Thanks, Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 20:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As I'm not involved in this jumpaclass head-to-head and have done some GA reviews in the past, I shall take a look at it. WjBscribe 20:56, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Review completed. Sorry but I couldn't pass it (see the article talkpage for my full review). Excellent work on the article and a very honourable 'B', but I don't think its hit the GA mark. WjBscribe 22:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Lol, the second time I ever apply for GA and it fails. I have a better hit rate with FA... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't approve of GAs being reviewed by us within the community. As a member of the Project, I feel that some cynical Wikipedians with an agenda against us will say we are passing our own articles. It lends fire to accusations of bias, even though I feel none of us are biased. Best not to use this avenue in future. LuciferMorgan 22:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• Given WJB failed it, I don't think that's likely. And I also think we need to stop fearing the homophobes. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering and all that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• I tend to disagree, too. For example: the biography project goes around assessing biographies. They have a large assessment department for that task. Nobody accuses them of bias in passing bios as GA or even A. If someone were to accuse us of that, I would tend to think they had an agenda (WP:ABF), or were truly confused about how Wikipedia projects work (WP:AGF) Jeffpw 22:36, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

• I thought hate leads to the Dark Side. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
• I disagree also. I think this plays into assuming good faith in fellow Wikipedians, and that includes assuming they are doing what is best for the articles, not for the individuals. People will use any line of attack when challenging something, meritorious or not. With all the work that needs to be done, we have to remain objective. And assume the good faith in each other that this is the case, until proven different on an editor-by-editor basis. --DavidShankBone 22:40, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

At the end of the day GA reviews can easily be challenged at Wikipedia:Good article review if someone objects to the outcome of one. WjBscribe 22:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The GA review page says, "It is not necessary to go through this process unless there is a dispute about the article's status." That seems to indicate that it isn't a problem if members of the project review articles within the project's scope, as long as we do so with integrity and in accordance with the criteria. Does anyone know what other WikiProjects do? -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

MILHIST has a really cool internal process for reviewing articles -getting an A there, for example, seems to be really difficult. I guess that later helps for a smooth FAC. Raystorm 23:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of Projects handing out GAs to articles related to their own Project, despite all the above arguments. It's irrespective of homophobia, I just think it's bad practice. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community, not just within one Project. Also, I wouldn't go by anything the GA review page says since it's a total shambles, despite efforts by others to fix it. An article placed there can be there forever :( Well anyway, I've spoken my opinion. I guess the Project wholly disagrees - oh well... LuciferMorgan 02:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'm not to fond of the idea, either. And we did have a bit of discussion above that's sort of contradictory with what's been said in this current conversation. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 03:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not saying this issue is exactly parallel, but in law there are strings of cases that were brought arguing that black people can't sit on juries involving other black people (because of inherent bias) or that a black judge can't sit on a case involving a black defendant (for the same reason). All of these cases found that there is no inherent bias, and the notion itself shocks us today, but I find the logic parallel. There is such a wide breadth of topics in LGBT articles that topics such as Lambda Legal are only tangentially related to an article such as At Swim, Two Boys. Few of us are approaching all of these articles with one common view, mindset and agenda. Mostly, are agenda is striving for objectivity in how we relay the world around us. But, I can say that we are the most knowledgable on the subjects. It would be difficult to expect, for instance, WikiProject Science to receive decent reviews to their articles from people who aren't knowledgable in the finer points of the topics and the issues inherent to each, right? When we review our own articles, we can more easily spot what is *not* there than those outside the projects. I just don't think it's an issue until....it's an issue. --DavidShankBone 03:20, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Footer template

{{LGBT-footer}} This template goes at the bottom of article pages and is intended to replace the present {{LGBT}} and {{Gay rights}} templates which tend to clutter article pages. There is no need to change every article immediately, but as you visit articles that use the old templates, please consider whether its readability will be enhanced by switching to this template. SatyrTN will be adding usage notes shortly. For the template to include all possible elements, use {{LGBT-footer|history=yes|culture=yes|rights=yes}} (the different resulting formats can be seen here). The idea is that further detail is given on depending on the article. E.g. rights articles link to other rights articles etc. WjBscribe 23:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Stupid list *kicks rock*.

Can someone please tell me why this list's reference extermal links have randomly decided to break halfway through, and more importantly can anyone tell me how I can fix them without having to do it all manually? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 23:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Fixed. Dunno what caused the problem but it was introduced by this edit: [9]. So I reverted to the previous version and readded the entries under 'S' in the correct format. WjBscribe 00:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)