Talk:Nahel Merzouk riots

Requested move 1 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Procedural close. No prejudice to further discuss titles for this page – suggest editors step back and take a breath or two. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; everyone stay healthy! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 03:13, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

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2023 French race riots → Nahel Merzouk protests – Merzouk's death is the focus here, and "race riots" evokes a negative connotation. See Mahsa Amini protests. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Support move to Nahel Merzouk protests or 2023 French riots. The WP:RS I've seen use just "riot" more than "race riot." TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 17:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The section had this name when I moved it from Killing of Nahel Merzouk. Support, also this should be an uncontroversial move. A discussion is probably not needed since current name is OR, moved. Ecrusized (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Nahel Merzouk riots. Describing this series of crimes as mere protests is ridiculously euphemistic. It includes arson, burglary, looting & attacks on civilians as well as police. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 18:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree with this characterization. Protests and riots are both terms used in WP:RS here and are both reasonable for discussion here. Something can be both a protest and a riot. I'm not sure the presence of crime is enough to prefer one term over the other on its own. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 18:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

  The article currently emphasises the use of "protests" over the use of riots. If it can be described as both, shouldn't they both be used? Alternatively, perhaps something like unrest could be used similar to the 2023 French pension reform unrest. Even this might be an understatement, considering that five times as many police officers have been injured in a matter of four days than were injured over a period of five months. Jokojis (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

This is many times more severe than the pension reform unrest & is mainly riots. The title & content are very biased in favour of the rioters. Criminals aren't burgling & setting fire to buildings in Marseille because a bad driver whom they didn't know was shot nearly 500 miles away. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I concur. The majority of the talk page appears to be in agreement that "riot is the proper term. Jokojis (talk) 21:41, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Why would a 'negative connotation' matter when that is the version of events which are occuring? Support moving to a similar sounding name of the above under Nahel Merzouk riots or Nahel Merzouk unrest (even 2023 French riots/unrest, as this has seemingly eclipsed the previous riots in May by sheer scale). Tweedle (talk) 19:21, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The current events are very similar to the 2005 French riots. So I propose Move to 2023 French riots ChandlerMinh (talk) 20:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems disingenuous to use a euphemistic term like "protests" at this point. The scale and character of what is going on is far beyond just some people marching around with signs. Cheef117 (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Support move to Nahel Merzouk riots. Far beyond simple protests at this point, it's escalated into riots now Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Definitely. If it was debatable on the first or second day, it is not now. 2600:1702:6D0:5160:D4A7:60FA:6E58:6EC7 (talk) 02:39, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protest or riot

It is poignant to define what this event is to set a proper title, infobox, and lede. Several reliable sources and their verbiage:

• CNN — "protest"
• Reuters — "riot"
• The New York Times — "protest"
• CBS News — "protest"
• Associated Press — "riot"
• The Washington Post — "protest"
• NBC News — "protest"
• ABC News — "protest"
• NPR — "protest"

Undoubtedly, some images that have emerged suggest this is a riot, while others suggest that these are isolated cases. Riots themselves are violent demonstrations and it is unlikely that the activities of this event are entirely violent. It is pertinent to be mindful of what terms we use and how they may be politically charged; France is not in anarchy as some sources have claimed or are painting the picture thereof. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:38, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Additionally, the French Wikipedia article on this event uses émeutes, or "riot", as France24 has. Le Monde is using manifestation, or "protest". elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Most of the French media is using the term émeutes (riots) now, including Le Monde (§). No sense rushing to move, but riots is the term we'll likely end up using. (The SNCF doesn't shut down its night-service to Lyon, as was done last night, due to protests.) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:58, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Some more for you, if you want

• Sky News - "protests/rioting"
• Guardian - "riots/protests"
• BBC - "riots", compare with your cited example of the Mahsa Amini protests
• The Times (bypass) - "riots"
• The Independent - "riots"
• The Telegraph - "riots/unrest"

Tweedle (talk) 21:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not opposed to including more discussion of non-violent civil disobedience or peaceful protesting, but as the article currently exists, it's contents are about rioting but contains a title and picture caption that just say "protest".

If "rioting" alone is inappropriate, then so "protests". Either these uses of "protests" should be switched to the more generic "unrest" or some variation of "protests and riots". Jokojis (talk) 21:54, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Looking through both the comments made on Request to move 1 July 2023 topic and the Protest or riot topic, the edit history, the sources used throughout the article, and the unambiguous use of "riots" (Émeutes) on the French version of the article, it seems there's a broad consensus that "riots" is just as, if not more appropriate than "protests". Considering that no editors have come forward to openly oppose the use of "riots", can we close the discussion and allow edits to proceed? Jokojis (talk) 03:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• I clicked on the first link to CNN, and it says the word "riot" multiple times in the article. The fact they use the word "protest" in the title of their article means nothing. Riot is defined as "a violent public disorder". This is clearly a riot. If there are any peaceful protests going on elsewhere, doesn't matter, the coverage is for the rioting. Dream Focus 05:38, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  You quote only English or American press but it seems interesting to quote French press.

  • Le Figaro : Nahel's death: more than 420 arrests after a third night of riots.
  • FranceInfo : Riots after Nahel's death, the tiredness and anger of law enforcement.
  • CNEWS (can't put the link): Riots in France, 427 persons arrested during the night.
  • EuroNews : Riots: Increased police presence in Lyon and Marseille.
  • Ouest-France : A fourth night of riots but with less intensity.
  • Le Monde : Riots after Nahel's death: 719 arrested during the night from Saturday to Sunday with limited incidents.
  • Huffington Post: Riots:719 arrested, "a quieter night", an update on the 5th evening of urban violence.
  • Le Parisien : Riot after Nahel's death: decrease of the violences, "a quieter night" everywhere in France.

  I can quote more and more but here's a substantial sample. HorsePower68 (talk) 09:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Start a page move discussion if you want, but this is going nowhere. WWGB (talk) 10:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The more recent the news articles, the more likely they refer to riots rather than protests. That makes sense because they've become increasingly violent. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:54, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The good news is that the numbers (of arrests, of rioters) are way down. This may be due in part to the family & OM sports fans calling for an end to the *riots*... Perhaps these sources could be added to the reactions section? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:52, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: Request declined as there are already more than two editors involved in this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:22, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, I'll move to the dispute resolution noticeboard. Jokojis (talk) 22:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Am I correct that there is only one person resisting the change to "riots" while the rest of us would prefer to use what is currently in every single newspaper and televison segment dedicated to the subject? I would say just move the page to 2023 French riots and let that single outlier be grumpy. Consensus is not unanimity. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

From the reports I've heard, the protests have subsided. I support using the term riots. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 23:11, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• I suggest to use "unrest" term. 3000MAX (talk) 16:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Collaboration on the "Background" section

Facing wholesale reverts while beginning to work on the paragraph, I will be leaving this entry for the time being as a result of this preemptive attitude. I remain unsure why the paragraph starts with "in modern history" when "in recent history" is more appropriate. Some of the ensuing discussion about police brutality in France is related to incidents related to individuals, some of it is related to crowd control.

The mention of the yellow vests movement should probably be separated from the paragraph as it is related to crowd control and (if included) the question of grenades de désencerclement could be added in the context of the recently outlawed Soulèvements de la Terre. While both contribute to the public perception of violent policing, it is likely that incidents related to individuals rather than crowds are more directly relevant here.

I'll leave this here in hopes that the paragraph will be improved by others (perhaps through discussion here, rather than by authoritarian reverts) from its current hodgepodge, staccato state. Someone should mention the crucial fact that the *2020* Michel Zecler beating was *filmed* in the entry to his office (if memory serves, it may have been his home) and the film was widely circulated. (the source mentions this latter fact) Also, some details don't hurt. The fact that that affair (again, if memory serves, based on what is said in the article) was about not wearing a face-mask (while black) is pertinent. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I was just about to submit this same topic. User:Birdofpreyru and User:ArcticSeeress are engaging in hostile edits against each other. The paragraph is confusing as it currently stands, the first sentence exclusively talks about police brutality, but the following sentences are about the social reaction to police brutality. Jokojis (talk) 22:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, seeing as you tagged me, I guess I'll leave my two cents about the section. TLDR: the specific incidents of civil unrest may be unfit for the section.

The section is rather disorganised, and talks about several different things. The header frames it as being about police brutality, but much of the content is about specific incidents of civil unrest. A better idea would be retrieve information from sources that analyse statistics on police brutality in France over a specific time frame or people's perception of police (e.g. distrust) in France, which would give better insight into the background of the incident (of course without any original research). Including specific prior incidents may give undue weight to their significance in this article. As most of the sources are from before 2023, it might be best to exclude them until better sources for them can be found. The Le Monde article may be from 2023, but it doesn't mention the 2005 riots' significance to the current events. Other news organisations such as the BBC, Al Jazeera and NPR mention the 2005 riots in passing, so it might be worth giving it the same weight here.

Side note: I'd suggest not using the word "in recent history" (or similar wording), as it is not specific; see MOS:RELTIME.

As regards your concern about hostile editing: I feel like your wording implies a lack of civility, which I don't really see. If you could point out something specific, then I'd be happy to rectify my further edits (though it may be best to leave them on my user page instead of derailing the conversation here). ArcticSeeress (talk) 23:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Well... the real context, you guys are not eager to write about, is that islamist terror attacks are routine in France, hence the attitude of police towards arab/margrebi looking ppl. Just on June 8, 2023 a Syrian refugee butchered four kids and two adults (https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20230608-several-children-injured-in-mass-stabbing-in-french-alps), there was a Muslim dude chopping out a head to a teacher (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Samuel_Paty), there were countless previous attacks with knifes, or driving cars on pedestrians, there was Bataclan attack, and so on. And even the cases you write about, like that Adama guy, turns out you just censor out the rightful reasons for the arrest in results of which he died, to present him as a poor victim of systemic racism, rather than a brother (and probably a partner in crime) of a wanted mugger. Birdofpreyru (talk) 10:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Justifying the attitude of police towards arab/margrebi by pointing to multiple unrelated incidents of crime whose only uniting factor is the race of the perpetrator doesn't really help show your point that systemic racism is being overblown in the article. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 16:30, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I am not justifying anything, I am saying that frequent, recurrent ethnic crimes in France are more than relevant background context to a story about yet another police encounter with a petty criminal of that ethnicity, which should be added to the article. Birdofpreyru (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Seeing a peaceful moment, I've tried to better organize the section. The 2005 background (unrelated to "police brutality") is on everybody's mind here, racial profiling has also been frequently mentioned in news reports. Concerns about policing have been consistently in the news these past years given the tensions in France around pension reform, deaths resulting from people fleeing police traffic stops, and the "mega-bassines" protests. Feel free to improve upon what I've added. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 02:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

What about islamist terrorists often knifing down or driving over somebody in France? Isn't it often mention in the news reports? Is it irrelevant context? Birdofpreyru (talk) 10:49, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source suggesting that Islamic terrorism - - or a knife - - was involved in this traffic stop or the subsequent escalation into youth riots? You are welcome to add reliable sources describing the POV of the police on this incident (though it would likely fit better on the page related to the incident than on the page focused on the reaction to the incident). NB: Similarly, with regard to Adama, the relevant context is the protests it engendered, not whether the event *should* have generated protests. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 11:04, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

As I understood, in this traffic stop were involved three young Arabs driving a Mercedes with no respect to traffic rules and escaping a police request to stop - thus looking a lot like criminals or terrorists in the context you don’t want to write about - when a car as an instrument of Islamist attack was used many times, including in France before. You don’t want this in the article as it will compromise the story you want to talk about an unmotivated and racists police brutality in France towards Muslims. Birdofpreyru (talk) 13:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

If you can find reliable sources that talk about that and its relevance to the killing and/or riots, then go ahead and add it. Be cautious of not providing your own original research or synthesising several different articles, and be wary of giving undue weight to certain aspects that reliable sources do not.

Also, try not to assert that other editors have agendas, as that likely constitutes a personal attack; see WP:ASPERSIONS. ArcticSeeress (talk) 15:51, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

The article omits any mention of terrorism. Post 9/11, France has the highest incidence of terrorism of any Western country, most of which has been Islamist & disproportionately committed by people of MENA origin. This has included vehicle-ramming attacks, most notably the 2016 Nice truck attack. That could be relevant, especially considering the fact that Merzouk was stopped as he was recklessly, illegally driving a fast car. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 16:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

FWIW: I looked back at contemporaneous reports about the passage of the 2017 law (Google lets you set the time period for news articles it returns) to see if there was any mention of the 7.14.2016 Nice attack or of terrorism in general by the police lobbying for this law giving them the same rights as gendarmes have. I've read a few articles and they all refer to an incident in Viry-Châtillon in October 2016 unrelated to terrorism. (an example: §) If you want to mark that article (or another from the same time period) up as a reference and add it to the section on the 2017 law to explain the reasons for it, be my guest. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 20:08, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

"an incident in Viry-Châtillon in October 2016 unrelated to terrorism" - that's a neat way to describe what turns out to be some youths in a Paris suburbs ghetto setting four policemen ablaze with some fire bombs. And sure it has nothing to do with police shooting another youth illegally driving a Mercedes, denying to follow police orders, and putting in danger the lives of people around and police themselves. Birdofpreyru (talk) 21:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

I suppose there's not much point reminding you of policies like WP:NOTFORUM. I gave you the material you needed to add a bit of law enforcement POV to the entry. What you chose to do with it is up to you. Cf. WP:HERE. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding my comment here rather than starting a new discussion. The background section suffers really badly from WP:SYNTH. Unless sources can be found explicitly linking the listed incidents to this in a way that is WP:DUE, they need to be removed. So far that seems to include everything in the subsections "Police brutality in France", "Racial profiling", and "2017 law concerning traffic stops". If these are relevant, then it shouldn't be hard to find sources describing them as relevant. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I've done this for 2017 law concerning traffic stops and racial profiling. You are correct, this is not difficult at all. Go ahead and find and add references (e.g. here's one on Adama Traoré... [1] and another on Chouviat & Zecler [2]) if it bothers you and you're inclined to help out. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:17, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move to 2023 French riots

• Nahel Merzouk protests → 2023 French riots – Requested move back to 2023 French riots over the current title (please forgive if I have not done this 100% correctly, this is my first request) – Tweedle (talk) 23:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)
• 2023 French riots → 2023 French riots (disambiguation)

Note 1: since the #1 proposed title has been turned into a dab page, it becomes ineligible to be a proposed title unless it, too, is formally dispositioned. "2023 French riots → 2023 French riots (disambiguation)" has been added to this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 22:47, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Note 2: 2023 French riots has been reverted back to a redirect, so Note 1 above no longer applies. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 09:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Note 3: since the proposed title has (once again) been turned into a dab page, it (once again) becomes ineligible to be a proposed title unless it, too, is formally dispositioned. "2023 French riots → 2023 French riots (disambiguation)" has been re-added to this request to meet that requirement. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:57, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

• Statement by nom: This is very clearly more prominently a riot and far outstrips the previous May riots over pension reform (see to sources below on labelling it as 'France riots'), our current infobox images speak to this testament, however let us strengthen this assertion by going over some sources from various news media outlets:

English speaking news outlets

• BBC - Section topic on website is titled 'France riots 2023';

• France shooting: Unrest spreads over police killing of teen - "At least 150 people have been arrested across France on a second night of mass unrest over Tuesday's fatal shooting of a 17-year-old boy by police near Paris during a traffic check. (...) On Wednesday morning, President Macron held a crisis cabinet meeting to discuss the escalating riots."

• The Guardian

• The Observer view on the riots in France: a grim tale of the growing gulf between haves and have-nots, Sun 2 Jul 2023 - "Right- and leftwing politicians, social scientists, analysts and commentators have rushed to variously condemn, explain, exploit and justify the fury and violence that erupted in many French cities."
• ‘Stop rioting, stop destroying’: victim’s grandmother calls for calm in France, Sun 2 Jul 2023 - "The grandmother of a teenage boy, whose fatal shooting by police sparked five nights of rioting in France, has called for calm as authorities said the scale and intensity of the violence appeared to be waning, despite an arson attempt on a mayor’s home."
• France riots: hundreds arrested in fourth night of unrest as 45,000 police deployed, Fri 30 Jun 2023 - "France’s interior minister, Gérald Darmanin, has said the coming hours “will be decisive” as violence triggered by the fatal police shooting of a teenager during a traffic stop in a Paris suburb flared for a fourth consecutive night. (...) Shops in several malls in Paris suburbs, as well as an Apple store in the centre of Strasbourg, were looted on Friday afternoon amid continuing rioting sparked by the shooting of Nahel M, 17, who was of north African descent, in Nanterre on Tuesday."

• The Times

• Why are there riots in France? The violent protests explained, June 30 2023. - "Where are the riots happening? - (..) Racial tensions grew after the Algerian War that ended French colonial rule. The riots are the worst street violence in France since 2005, when three weeks of unrest followed the death of two youths of African origin while fleeing from police."
• Stop rioting, pleads Nahel Merzouk’s grandmother, July 02 2023 - "A grandmother of the teenage boy killed by a policeman in a Paris suburb pleaded for an end to the violence after five nights of rioting in France."
• The Times view on the riots: Mayhem in France, June 30 2023 - "The devastation in only three days and nights of rioting has shocked France (...) Across the country, some 3,800 fires have been started, more than 1,500 cars set alight and about 500 buildings, including schools, banks, libraries, shops, supermarkets and police stations, ransacked. Rioters have burst into shops, smashed and looted luxury stores and burnt buses in their depots. Hundreds of police officers have been injured and almost 700 people arrested."
• France riots: 1,300 arrested in one night as protests grow, July 01 2023 - "More than 1,300 people were arrested in the fourth night of rioting in France as the family of Nahel Merzouk, a 17-year-old shot dead by a policeman, prepared to bury him."

• Reuters

• Sporadic violence, but calmer night in France after family buries teenager, July 1st 2023 - "Rioting across France appeared to be less intense on Saturday"

• ABC News

• Over 1,300 arrested in France in 4th night of protests over fatal police shooting of teen Nahel M., July 1, 2023 - "Riots erupted for a fourth night across France over the fatal police shooting of 17-year-old Nahel M., who was laid to rest on Saturday. More than 1,300 people were arrested overnight throughout the country, according to the French Ministry of the Interior, as cars and buildings were set ablaze and stores looted. The damage was widespread, from Paris to Marseille and Lyon, with about 2,500 fires set, officials said."

French news outlets (additional credit to @HorsePower68)

• Le Figaro

• Death of Nahel: faced with a tsunami of violence, the police close ranks - " On the fifth day of riots such as France had not known for eighteen years"
• Death of Nahel: relive the events of the fourth night of riots in France, 06/30/2023 - "Many French towns and cities again descended into chaos last night, for the fourth night of riots since the death of young Nahel"

• FranceInfo

• Riots after the death of Nahel: the fatigue and anger of the police, 01/07/2023 - "Before the riots, the police have already suffered demonstrations against pension reforms while police violence is regularly pointed out."

• Le Monde

• Looting, fires, attacks: the staggering toll of the days and nights of riots in France - "In five nights and as many days of violence, the direct victims of fires, violence, damage or theft number in the thousands. A balance sheet which would have exceeded that of the riots of 2005, which had however lasted three weeks. In nearly two decades, the context and operating methods have changed"
• Urban riots, live: Emmanuel Macron will receive Tuesday "the more than 220 mayors of municipalities victims of abuses" - "The Lyon justice system has set up an unprecedented system to deal with the legal consequences of the riots of the last three nights"

This is a fraction of the total amount of news articles on the event, Ctrl+F for "riot" on this Wiki page and get to the bottom to the References section and you will see it pops up 18 separate times compared to "protests" which only pops up 6 times. Tweedle (talk) 23:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support, except that I don't believe "riots" should be capitalized. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 23:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes that is a good point, I will change that now Tweedle (talk) 23:46, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. In the spirit of compromise, I could accept Nahel Merzouk riots as a distant second choice. This does have the advantage of leaving the 2023 French riots page available for a new, synthetic page concerning all the rioting in the year, and will leave the existing redirect in place until such a page is written. That said, anybody searching google for news articles concerning "French riots" produced in the last week can see there are a huge number of articles. As of now "Nahel Merzouk riots" with quotes in Google news yields zero results, so the evidence shows this is not yet the English WP:COMMONNAME ("French riots" appears to be). (nb: 2023 is not going to appear in articles written in 2023). That said, I think it's more important that we correct protests to riots to recognize the estimated >€1 billion euros in damages in the last week and there appears to be strong consensus below for that. Once that major concern is fixed, we won't even have to revisit the revised name if reliable sources should start calling it that. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 23:40, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose move to 2023 French Riots Given 2023 French pension reform unrest is also described by sources as riots we probably need a more specific title and to disambiguate 2023 French riots. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 23:47, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

That's a reasonable objection, though based on the references in that entry, the pension reform protests were clearly not primarily described as riots. Wouldn't a see also link be sufficient? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 23:54, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Maybe make the title more specific. Like June-July 2023 French riots or 2023 French summer riots. Nahel Merzouk riots or Nahel Merzouk unrest would also allow disambiguation. Also, it may be best to wait and see what reliable sources settle on calling the event. The article was moved twice yesterday and has a move history request so moving it again right now may not be best; I'd at least wait for an admin to merge the history from the last move. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 00:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

2023 French summer riots I could settle for. My general point being is that it is (to me atleast) that one has clearly eclipsed the other in significance to warrant a main '2023 France riots'. Concur with the BBC who has designated the title of that to these current events and rather has not put any of their work on the pension reform unrest in said sub-topic. Tweedle (talk) 12:52, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to Nahel Merzouk riots per reasons stated by TulsaPoliticsFan. Someone who's wrong on the internet (talk) 01:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Tentatively support for move to '2023 French riots'. However, I concur with @TulsaPoliticsFan that it would be desirable to use language that is clear, unambiguous, and most importantly aligns with common and official language usage— something that will become more clear as time progresses. I consulted google trends to see what's actually being used, and it seems that "2023 French riots" led early on, but for the past two days is tied with "Nahel Merzouk riots". I'm aware this isn't an official source, but worth considering.

The French language version of this article is titled "Émeutes consécutives à la mort de Nahel Merzouk", literally, "Riots following the death of Nahel Merzouk". This is a mouthful, but ultimately it's the most unassuming option.

In any case, if multiple names are actually used, we should document it as such, even if those names might not be the "most accurate" or "most desirable" description. Take the Wikipedia page for the LA riots as an example:

>>The 1992 Los Angeles riots, (also called the Rodney King riots, the 1992 Los Angeles uprising, or Sa-I-Gu in Korean)

Similarly, for the often violent protests in Ferguson in 2014:

>The Ferguson unrest (sometimes called the Ferguson uprising, Ferguson protests, or the Ferguson riots) Jokojis (talk) 03:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Riots in France are a regular occurrence, we can do better than a generic title. There is nothing wrong with Nahel Merzouk protests as his death was the catalyst for the unrest. That title is consistent with George Floyd protests. WWGB (talk) 04:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. France has a propensity towards protest, and as such we should use the natural disambiguation of Nahel Merzouk protests and 2023 French pension reform unrest as is. This isn't a situation like the 2011 England riots, which gain that title because riots are relatively rare in the UK.

Additionally concur with @WWGB, along with part of @Jokojis - perhaps a insert such as:

>> The Nahel Merzouk protests, also called the 2023 French riots...

may be useful.

After further considerations, and other editors suggestions, Move to Nahel Merzouk riots since the riots are now primary coverage. Couruu (talk) 08:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC), edit 12:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

So, because a few English people have the original thought that the French riot a lot (what en.wp says about that), we should disregard what the majority of reliable sources are calling the riots and call them protests. We could also repeal WP:COMMONNAME and move France to Frogland... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 09:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Lets not assume bad faith here. My argument is primarily that we should use natural disambiguation; "2023 France riots" is non-descriptive, whereas "Nahel Merzouk protests" is. For clarity, I'm opposing "2023 France" but neutral on protests vs riots. Perhaps unrest might be better. Couruu (talk) Couruu (talk) 10:19, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm just teasing you from across the channel where life is a riot. :) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 11:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually, the French do riot quite often. WWGB (talk) 12:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Something being of a regular occurance does not require that we call it something different from what it is (though I see you have clarified and said your opposition is againest '2023 France' and the like). Tweedle (talk) 15:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support. It seems clear by now that 1) these events are no longer "protests" but rather unbridled rioting, destruction, burning, and looting, and 2) they clearly have little to do with Nahel at this point. The boy's own grandmother has asked the rioters to stop and said they are exploiting his death and using it as an excuse to run amok. Clearly the riots have little to do with him. Keeping the title as it is right now would be deeply misleading. Μαρκος Δ 11:32, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  That's only really an argument though for changing the "protests" in the title to "riots." From what I understand, there's been lots of both. This was also the case though with the unrest following the killing of George Floyd in 2020, but that article is titled "protests." If this one is changed, it should be to Nahel Merzouk riots, or perhaps Nahel Merzouk unrest - not "2023 French" - as there have been other riots in France this year. -2003:CA:871E:B6C:4A0:FCD5:DA9B:11D3 (talk) 21:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Nahel Merzouk unrest. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 15:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Move to Nahel Merzouk riots. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 18:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose and close discussion. These riots are happening not just in France, but in Belgium too.Tomaatje12 (talk) 19:58, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  To be fair, I've only seen reports of one night of rioting in Brussels specifically, but this is all still developing. Jokojis (talk) 22:48, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

  I've seen reports that on 30th june police arrested 50 people in Brusssels Tomaatje12 (talk) 20:36, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - As others have noted above, there have already been other riots in France this year. These particular protests/riots were directly inspired by the police's killing of a particular individual, so it's fitting with norms to have his name in the title, for example George Floyd protests. -2003:CA:871E:B6C:4A0:FCD5:DA9B:11D3 (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to Nahel Merzouk riots - Per the argument that "French Riots" is not specific enough CeltBrowne (talk) 00:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Nahel Merzouk riots - the riots started because of the Killing of Nahel Merzouk.

Sebbog13 (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment Apperantly not. In recent times France changed its immigration laws and the Maghreb immigrant are not happy about this. This riot is the venting of their anger against the goverment. BlackOrchidd (talk) 05:16, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support. His name, especially his surname, is not particularly well-known. And the riots, while sparked by his death, are certainly not about his death, but about general dissatisfaction, moving on to general love of destruction and looting. And they're clearly riots, not protests. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Wait, while this definitely the more major riot. I feel like it still should be more precise and we should wait for that name to appear. ✶Mitch199811✶ 16:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose, move to Nahel Merzouk riots. For similar reasons stated above, I feel like that "2023 French riots" is too vague and unambiguous, not totally reffering to the main topic at hand. For example, in 2023, some other riots may occur (who knows?) – then we'd be left with two riots on the same page. So, for those reasons, I oppose the current move. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 17:10, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, cf. prior points about the ambiguity of 2023 French riots. Additionally, I would be in support of renaming all the French riots pages to better represent the catalysts, i.e. Théodore Luhaka riots in 2017 or Zyed & Bouna riots in 2005, as is already the case for Black Lives Matter protests cf. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, Tyre Nichols... I am neutral on a move to Nahel Merzouk riots, and personally very iffy to do so on the basis of selected media sources. Of course I am aware Wikipedia relies on secondary sources but in an effort to retain a neutral point of view, I think we should be more careful around this extremely loaded language. Cf. Politis, Arrêt sur images & Télérama for critiques of the media response. The Arrêt sur images article does reuse the word émeutes (riots) in its title but specifically criticizes Le Monde & Le Figaro, two of the three French-language sources cited in the original statement. NumismaticJunk (talk)

NumismaticJunk (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

yeah Sebbog13 (talk) 01:02, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

As mentioned above, there were riots in Belgium and Switzerland - so I feel like it would be wrong to say that is merely a "French thing", when there have been riots sparked across other countries as well. These riots aren't limited to a single place, which is why I'm in favor of a move to Nahel Merzouk riots. Coverage on this here: 1 2 3 4 --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 15:50, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

why are so many people supporting to move to french riots if this happened in other countries? Sebbog13 (talk) 17:11, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

That's fun, I didn't know you could add references to the Daily Mail and the Mirror on talk pages. I guess the former is only blocked from mainspace? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 17:51, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose so. I was wondering about deprecated sources... --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 22:28, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

There seems to atleast be a general agreement about moving to 'riots' over protests, should we do a subsection on this to gather consensus for Nahel Merzouk riots v 2023 French riots? Tweedle (talk) 22:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, you can go ahead and do that. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 18:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support these are clearly riots not protests. Dream Focus 02:56, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support As per aboveBlackOrchidd (talk) 08:25, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support - Both the sources and subject matter support the proposed name change. --Posted by Pikamander2 (Talk) at 09:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support – riots is a much better term to describe what's happening, and sources support this. —Ynhockey ^(Talk) 13:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support move, any actions of peaceful protestors are so ridiculously overshadowed by the rioters that it would be misinformation to pretend that these are anything but riots. EytanMelech (talk) 13:53, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose any move that uses "French" as opposed to "Nahel Merzouk". The protests aren't united by the fact that they are in France, and in fact these protests have spread outside of France as well, but by the fact that they are in reaction to the extrajudicial killing of Nahel. (Edit: In addition, there have been several other riots in France just this year :3 F4U (they/it) 18:40, 6 July 2023 (UTC)) :3 F4U (they/it) 18:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Sparked by it, but in no way about it after the initial protests. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:13, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support – Has escalated beyond mere protests -- Sirtywell (talk) 13:53, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Related discussion on disambiguating 2023 French riots

For interested editors, there is a discussion here about whether to disambiguate or redirect 2023 French riots during this move discussion. TulsaPoliticsFan (talk) 18:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

The redirect has now been changed to a disambiguation page for the second time since this move discussion was opened. I have created this section on the pension reforms protests page related to rioting in order to have a legitimate target for the redirect, since referring to the largest series of protests in 21st century France as riots would be POV. That said, the section in question needs a lot of work, because prior to its creation -- after the redirect was created -- the entry had virtually no information whatsoever on rioting. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 08:23, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I would call it the 2023 French uprising, because there's already an article called the 2005 French riots. Besides, peaceful protests are rarely a thing during this unrest. SpringField23402 (talk) 15:40, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that uprising would make much sense. It isn't much of a "revolution" or "rebellion", per se. --WellThisIsTheReaper ^Grim 18:14, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Metropolitian and territories

Apart from these two, does France have other territories that are mentioned in the infobox? Parham wiki (talk) 21:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Firearms usage?

Should a paragraph be created to write about the usage of firearms, such as Kalashnikovs, by rioters? Numerous videos have been filmed of rioters with shotguns, handguns and Eastern European/Soviet firearms. Maxttck (talk) 01:08, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Sure, but this needs verification through reliable sources, and not just videos. If you can find some, then you can go ahead and add a paragraph to the relevant section. ArcticSeeress (talk) 03:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Aside from this paid Substack article, I don't believe there is any coverage. NumismaticJunk (talk) 23:47, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Now it’s locked, would it be possible for someone else to edit it to include this info? 179.50.162.76 (talk) 01:46, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It has been added, but should be removed as the paywalled miltantwire.com is probably not a reliable source and the information is not due if it only appears in specialized sources but not in mainstream media reports. Cf. its use on en.wp Suggest either getting consensus here or asking about the status of this substack at WP:RSN before reinstating. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 10:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I purchased the article and it contains videos and photographs of the rioters with the mentioned weapons. There is no bias and the publication focuses on visual confirmation and identification of weapons from verified videos and photographs Maxttck (talk) 12:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC

Feel free to start a thread at WP:RSN with your conclusions concerning the blog's reliability. I've looked into this a bit more. I see they have a staff and have occasionally been cited by reliable sources. They have not been cited on this particular issue however, so at least for the moment it appears to be undue. However, if you find any other more standard references to these matters feel free to post them here or at the RS/N thread now opened concerning this issue. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:50, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Refs

• France riots: when police shot a teenager dead, a rumbling pressure cooker exploded, Joseph Downing, June 30, 2023 the conversation

Bookku (talk) 09:45, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Misinformation

@Plumeater2 keeps removing mention of Hindu nationalists pushing misinformation about the protests and adding a statement about British and Russian nationalists. This is despite the cited France 24 source explicitly mentioning Hindu nationalists and only mentioning one British and one pro-Russian account, with no mention of British or Russian nationalists.

I have brought this to the talk page to avoid the WP:3RR limit, and to establish a consensus on what should be included. Isi96 (talk) 07:39, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps unsurprisingly, it has been reverted again, Despite the WP:ONUS being on @Dilbaggg: to get consensus for their edits, they have not engaged on the T/P as per the WP:BRD process on either this subject, or the firearms subject sourced to the "miltiantwire.com" substack they added. They've also re-introduced an error from a misreading of the Fortune article. As you say the France 24 source explicitly mentions Hindu nationalists (the logicallyfacts.com source they deleted from the paragraph names the BJP and provides links to the tweets they are referring to) The France 24 source also identifies the British account as a "far-right" Britain First figure and the Russian account as... a pro-Russian account. That said, logicallyfacts.com -- used repeatedly in the Misinformation section -- is used about as rarely on en.wp as militantwire.com.

Perhaps they will engage on the talk page now that they've been pinged... in the meantime the militantwire.com stuff should be removed pending consensus for inclusion, as mentioned above, and "Hindu nationalists" should be restored as it is indeed explicitly sourced. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 19:34, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@SashiRolls I've gone ahead and WP:BOLDly restored the material, hope that's alright. Isi96 (talk) 19:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

internet restrictions

"A fake press release supposedly from the Interior Ministry circulated on social media. It claimed that Internet access would be temporarily restricted in certain areas of the country."

Was the internet temporarily restricted in certain areas of France? If it was restricted, what's the value of perpetuating official lies? 79.166.4.32 (talk) 14:05, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Last names

While Le Monde, Les Echos, Le Figaro and Le Parisien seem to have strictly respected the anonymity of the dead minor, never publishing his full name, the regional and international press were less obliging. Will it be the same now that a regional press has released the name of the police officer (apparently after it had been circulating on the internet for a while already)? Already the interior minister has filed a request with the equivalent of the attorney general to force the offending paper to retract the article (which won't do much good at this point). Whatever will the NYT do? And the Daily Mail? Will *.wp be more like the former or the latter? Personally, I would urge restraint, just as I would have done with Nahel's last name. But I'm aware that others will surely disagree... -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 22:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)