User talk:ChildofMidnight

Travesty in motion: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles/Proposed decision. Wikipedia's arbcom is in the process of dishing out heavy punishments to two good faith editors who have faced the wall of incivility and NPOV violating POV pushers camped out on the Obama articles. Despite my many good faith efforts to discuss the issue and present alternatives for resolving it, Wizardman and the other Arbcoms appear ready to reinforce and encourage the incivility, obstruction, wikilawyering, and harassment carried out by those calling themselves "defenders" and "patrollers" on these pages. This is a dark time for Wikipedia when bias is encouraged and the censors are rewarded for their efforts. If you're opposed to Arbcom spitting on our core policy of NPOV please contact them and let them know that punishing the good faith efforts of editors facing severe challenges in addressing this problem is the height of bad form and totally unacceptable.

Stuff

Delete all content that I think is boring or that can be obtained from other sources. But keep both the articles that remain. {&nbsp} — One of Wikipedia's Wise Men

• Please leave your flattering comments and appreciation for my good work at the bottom of the page.
• To discuss issues on this page, please refer to the associated talk page.
• Read about the Kelapstick Bacon Challenge 2009 or get an early start on the 2010 Bacon Challenge coming up in December, 2009 as a giant Christmas present to all of Wikipedia to be unwrapped March 1, 2010 for National Pig Day!

Wiel Arets

Wiel Arets (Heerlen, 14 mei 1955) is a Dutch architect. He graduated from the TU Eindhoven in 1983. In the following year he started his own firm, Wiel Arets architect & associates, in Heerlen. He prefers simple and abstract compositions. His palet is very sparse and he prefers black and white (including for his own clothes; he usually dresses in black).

His main claim to fame is his design for the Academie voor Beeldende Kunsten in Maastricht; his design for the Universiteitsbibliotheek in Utrecht is also praised. With Jo Coenen he collaborated in the restauration of the glaspaleis in his birthplace Heerlen, and designed a number of pharmacies (?) in the south of the Netherlands. In Hapert he designed a complete Medisch Centrum (Oude Provinciale weg 81/Lindenstraat Hapert). The form language of neo-modernisme is combined with an abstract, placid aesthetic. His favorite building material is the glass brick.

Awards

In 2005, Wiel Arets received the BNA-Kubus, the oldest award for architecture in the Netherlands. The jury appreciated the remarkable quality of his work and praises his extraordinary contribution to architecture. The Kubus is awarded annually since 1965; previous winners include Herman Hertzberger, Wim Quist, Jo Coenen, Jo van den Broek, Benthem Crouwel and Hubert-Jan Henket, and Wessel de Jonge.

Also in 2005 Arets received the Rietveldprijs for his design for the Universiteitsbibliotheek on De Uithof in Utrecht, which came with a check for 7500 euro. The Stichting Rietveldprijs awards the prize every other year to an architect who builds a remarkable building in Utrecht. Past winners include Koen van Velsen, Mart van Schijndel, and Rem Koolhaas.

References

This apparently has something to do with a thread on this page...

Signing so this will be archived. Gracias Drmies for translation. Although the pharmacies issue makes me wonder whether you are really Dutch? ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

It was about time you had one of these

		The Surreal Barnstar
		For special merits in Dragon breeding.

Irony

Steely

Steely!

Even Steelier!

Goldie!

Goldie!

Hi

:)

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Horror film genre-specifc reliable sources

If you have time, I'd appreciate your looking in at Horror film genre-specifc reliable sources and either comment, advise, or contribute. I think something like this should have been done a while ago so as to help stop the bickering at AfDs. I might set it as an essay. What thinkest thou?

Re: Thanks

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talkback

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Thanks

For the verbal encouragement... — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Why Dot Moore is relevant

Dot Moore is relevant to this issue because she happened to be Ms. Hope's main competition within the local media market. I decided to recommend it for deletion to see what would happen, and interestingly, one of the people who is debating the notability of the Connie Bea Hope article proceeded to remove the deletion notice while addressing my justification for recommending deletion. My contention is, if Moore deserves notation, so does hope. Also, I saw that you created the Payton article. It wouldn't hurt to mention that she was the aunt of Hank Aaron (as per the obituary, I think I had linked it as a source)

Other than that, hope you are having a wonderful day and I wish you well. For me, it's coming down to a sense of sort of "mid-sized city" pride you could say, because this would not be an issue if we were citing the Philadelphia Inquirer, the Los Angeles times or even the New Orleans Times-Picayune, that one being interesting because, as I had pointed out, Mobile's media market is almost the size of New Orleans (and pretty much is if you have a station that covers it and reaches Biloxi) Genovese12345 (talk) 19:02, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

hmmm

I'm surprised by this — Ched :  ?  19:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I thought it would be hard to surprise you at this point! :) We keep getting these arguments supporting candidates who don't want the tools, have never been involved in or dealt with disputes. So how do we know that understand what it's like to deal Wikilawyering or other types of abusive editors who obstruct? How do we know how they deal with disputes? Will they have empathy for editors who DO edit contentious articles and deal with disputes all the time? I don't think these are unreasonable questions. 50-2, it looks like the hope for the bests have a big advantage at this point anyway.

How have you been by the Chedmeister? When is your RfA nom? I have a lot of questions I want to ask... :) Have a good one. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:26, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

lol ... almost every single day I am surprised at WP. That's what keeps it so fun! re:disputes... I just never think of an admin. as being responsible for any particular area of WP .. be it dispute resolution, XfD, AIV, or whatever. I figure we all play to our strengths. Your question certainly has validity, and I vow to go back and read. I guess I was surprised to see you oppose someone given the invalid opposes in your own RfA. As far as Chedmeister's RfA ... really hasn't come up, other than in a passing comment. My personality likely won't be one that self-noms. I'm good .. had a nice trip from PA to AL in the US lately, very nice. Have made a few mistakes with BLP sorting and all .. but for the most part .. life is good. I hope it's good for you too. ;) — Ched :  ?  20:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

If I didn't think my support might be toxic I would nom you, Bongo, Drmies, and K-Schtick. Where's S Marshall when I need him??? Speaking of which... I also need MQS and Ikip's help at AfD. How do I send up a bat signal? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I would be interested in seeing an RfA for a candidate that you nominated. It would make for an interesting read. I would expect that the people of Wikipedia are able to put aside their differences and !vote for a candidate based on their own merits, rather than hang the candidate based on guilt by association, however I would not be surprised if you came up in one or two of the questions. I can see it now:

"Would you have supported CoMs RfA?"

If you needed a co-nominator for Mies, Dr. Bongo, Ched or even MqS (provided they were willing), let me know. As for me, my opinion is if my RfA were to fail based solely on who nominated me rather than on my merits, I would not want to be an administrator, Cheers and happy Memorial Day. --kelapstick (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Hahahaha that was my approach too. I got three supports. :) But if it had been left open long I'm sure I could have gotten well into the high single digits... I forgot to mention Werespielcheqers (sp?) too. I think he's a great editor who maintains and even keel.

I may seem like a glutton for pain and self-immolation, but I don't encourage these behaviors in others. If there was a way to improve important political articles while avoiding conflict and the drama and intrigue of being made a target by editors who refuse to abide by our policies, I would love to know what it is.

That being said, I think it's probably best (safest?) to follow the procedures and keep a low profile as much as is possible. If someone chooses to engage in difficulties and challenges that exist either before or after getting the bit, good on them, but trying to resolve conflicts and taking on thorny issues is a fast train to Oppose votes as many a candidate (Bwilkins comes to mind) can testify. Thus the Admins willing to take on challenges are few and far between, and instead we get stealth candidates and automoton like robots who have never been involved in a dispute.

I don't see how editors who haven't engaged in contentious issues are qualified or experienced enough to deal with some of the key Administrative rolls. But it's hard to find anyone who deals with contentious fare and can still pass RfA. Even Admins avoid dealing with problems (they might want to run for higher office some day). So I say good on Elonka and Durova for being willing to step up. Even where we disagree with them they deserve our highest respect and regard for being willing to try and resolve problems in a fair and reasonable way. But they have certainly taken heat for it and it's a problem because every grudge counts against you if you ever try to make something of youreslf, whether it be Admin, bureaucrat, high priest, and Jimboidal ambassador to one of the micronations. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I like your last edit summary. Bongomatic 02:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

←impressive ;) — Ched :  ?  21:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm eagerly awaiting your candidacy. Accept already. I have three pages of questions and a year's supply of Bacon and egg pies at the ready. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Ahh-Haa .. now you know how I felt, well, at least up until it got kinda yucky. Actually, I think Pedro is looking at the possibility, and he mentioned maybe sometime in June. I told him I'd be more than willing if he thought it could help the community, so it may come sooner than I thought. Actually, I didn't think anyone would take it seriously until I had about a year in, but the issue is on the table, so we'll see where it goes from here. I'll definitely be doing some serious study work! ;) — Ched :  ?  01:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

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Smallman12q (talk) 21:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

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Smallman12q (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you just enjoy the pain?

Good luck with Puebla F.C.. will try to engage anon on their talk page... I have one prediction what the outcome there will be... Asking for help at AN, as suggested was a little bit less than no help so can I pass the baton on to you?! How's things with Mr Obama? People still not interested in a balanced story? I heard he used to like toy cars, but I can't see that mentioned anywhere in the article. Oh, and I'm off to spy on your AfDs, see if I agree with you or not. And then I'll write about bacon ice cream... Bigger digger (talk) 22:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm becoming quite on expert on what passes for football in foreign lands. Just yesterday I was working on the chicken wing tackle.

I happened upon the responses to your request for assitance at AN. They didn't seem very encouraging, but then it is a holiday, at least where I am.

The Obama coverage is rocking on. The joys of collaborating with the many good faith editors who are eager to ensure that a variety of notable perspectives are included (per WP:NPOV) is truly heart warming. If something is added that they don't agree with they always try to fix it rather than just object and delete it wholesale. Participating in the collegial editing environment there is a fantastic experience that I recommend to everyone, especially friends and family.

As far as the odd tidbit, I'm all for including them. Not in the main article of course, but someone suggested height and weight and other details and I say go for it. It's at least as relevant as the 489th article on a Pokemon character. :) I'm surviving at AfD more or less. Canvassing, begging, pleading, whining, whinging, and bribery are working wonders. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah, the chicken wing. Useful on students, probably not so good on professional athletes... I took the liberty of expanding it a bit, is it going for a DYK? I was disappointed not to find a video or photo of it. What's youtube for it not for showing slo-mo replays of agonising pain on the sports field??

I've successfully stalked you at AfD, generally agree, but not on the one that's probably most important, sorry! And I think I'll steer clear of any controversial statements in Obama articles, but thanks for the advice... Bigger digger (talk) 00:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

If someone was involved in a television cooking program on a local NYC station for decades and they had an obit in the NY Times would there be any question about their notability? And in my opinion this cooking show in Mobile, Alabama, when there were only two channels even in existence there, is more significant than half the big city garbage anyway. It's got race issues, television history, culinary happenings, and I want to watch it! Oh well. You Brits! Maybe if she had a show on chips, donner kebabs and bacon buttys you'd feel different... ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

And as far as controversial edits, who would have thought that a sentence noting Republican and Conservative opposition would be controversial? Do people really think those on the political right like Obama? Seriously? Or that all of a sudden opposition, criticisms and controversies aren't notable for this particular president as they have been for all the others? Seems wrong. I don't like censorship or ignorance, and I'm not going to have any part of encouraging it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Donor meat, chips and cheese (What?!! No article?!) is the way forward after a few drinks to really maximise calorie intake, but I don't know if I'd want to watch or listen to a program on it. I guess the NY-based broadcasters meet WP:GNG if not WP:BIO so wp treats them as more notable. That's maybe fair enough, more people hear/read/see them. At the end of the day, I'm having to go in search of sources for major African musicians who just don't get contemporary internet-searchable English-language coverage, so your Mobile problems are small fry! Bigger digger (talk) 11:10, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

"Donor meat" doesn't sound good to me. Although my recent work on a miniature pig article (will be live soon) suggests there is life saving potential from porcine animal "donors"! (I've also seen it written that bacon is a hangover cure, so there are broad medical implications.) But I'm not sure what exactly "donor meat" involves, and it has a Soylent Green type of ring to it that's troubling me... ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Round Peak

Hi, in that area of the southern Appalachians a lot of states touch one another and are right near one another. Mount Airy, North Carolina is in northernmost North Carolina while nearby Galax, Virginia (where the style is very similar) is in southernmost Virginia. The "greater Round Peak" area probably includes both cities as well as the surrounding towns in both states, or at least that's my understanding of it. Badagnani (talk) 03:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Just got this from Flippen's Internet guru and MySpace page manager:

“ In regards to Round Peak music, locally it refers specifically to the Round Peak/Low Gap/Mt. Airy area and NOT the Galax, Virginia area. However, nationally, they both have been lumped together for the sake of easier comprehension. The difference between them is typically the banjo style and repertoire of tunes. Benton's music encompasses that of the Round Peak style, as well as the broader Surry County style, and even the commercial styles of early recording artists like Fiddlin' Arthur Smith, Uncle Dave Macon, and others. In the last decade or so, he has been promoted as the last living proponent of Round Peak fiddling, a title rightful to him. ”

Badagnani (talk) 04:29, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Gentleman Jack

Let's keep at it and get a bourbon DYK here. Nice for Genovese also. Drmies (talk) 05:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Jackpot

Bacon Vodka Law _{type! snype?} 06:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

[1] it makes sense .. bacon does go well with potatoes! cheers, --guyzero | talk 08:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Please add to User:ChildofMidnight/Baconchallenge2009. The challenge should be going live in 7 hours... So there's plenty of time. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Understood...

ChildofMidnight, thanks for the note on my talk page. I've left you a reply there. Cheers. — CactusWriter | ^needles 08:12, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

T.Madhavan

Yes, I have to add a few more links. The link I had given in the talk page is to an article in Economic Times about gold price volatility study the professor had conducted. Paalappoo (talk) 08:37, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Can you pl check the links I have added? Paalappoo (talk) 18:22, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Prof.Madhavan is a professor of statistics, data analysis, forecasting etc. He is well known for his teaching style and knowledge. He has not taught in any institute other than IIM A. Let me try to get more sources. Paalappoo (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, his works have been published. I will try to get more info about those. He has co-authored a couple of books too. But I dont have any info about those too. :( Paalappoo (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

"Production and Quantitative Methods area" is the name of the department the prof works in. In IIM A, usage of "area" is common in most department names. Forecasting, data analysis (using regression, correlation, moving average) etc are technically statistical methods. Those are found as chapters in statistics text books.

I am not able to locate any links to his other works or discussions about his works as I am thru a heavily firewalled network.

BTW, climatic variables are part of time series. Seasonal adjustment and trend estimation are the techniques used. I know a bit of statistics but nothing about climate. Paalappoo (talk) 19:21, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Social Security Index

The Social Security Index is a database of the SSA that catalogs the name of every person who has died who was ever on Social Security. It lists birth/death dates, where the benefits were last received, what the name of the person was, and their social security number. It was the only way to get the valid dates for Payton --Genovese12345 (talk) 16:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Delete

All content that I think is boring or that can be obtained from other sources. But keep both the articles that remain. Aymatth2 (talk) 17:50, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

• O.k., drop those two articles, which have no reliable sources. Aymatth2 (talk) 12:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Climatic variables

I think they are discussed in weather forecasting and numerical weather prediction. Paalappoo (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Related topics, but I think climate variables and variability are something quite different. The statistical studies and methodologies involved are very interesting, particularly as the subject is involved in such major political topics. I think an encyclopedic article on the subject of the varaibles and variability that includes the scientific approaches involved would be very interesting. Global warming and climate change are buzz words that are polluted with partisanship and the fanatacism of ideologues (on both sides of the issue). I've added the topic to my to do list... But don't hold your breath. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:31, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I can add what I know. I have learnt the techniques as part of statistics, just the manipulation and analysis of data. The same techniques are used in index and volatility predicitons in finance. :) Paalappoo (talk) 19:38, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Snake 'n' Bacon

Okay, I've deleted the page for you. Spencer^{T♦Nominate!} 01:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

And in other pork news . . .

Did you ever read this classic? Bongomatic 05:36, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Apparently porketarians are plotting the overthrow of the middle-classes. Bigger digger (talk) 22:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Or this current item? Bongomatic 14:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Bacon mania

In checking something for an RfA, I noticed in the above page: At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point people clamor for the "Bacon and Beer Happy Hours". The source states: "At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point, people clamor for the Bacon and Beer Happy Hours". This sentence needs to be rewritten. I haven't checked the rest of the page, but since it was your work, could you go through an ensure that any sentences like this are paraphrased and do not contain phrases from the original articles? Thanks. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:05, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

It's not a direct quote. So I think it would be wrong to put it in quotation marks? The comma in the original text is ommitted and I put Bacon and Beer Happy Hours in quotation marks, which means that it's not a direct quote and has in fact been rewritten. As it's cited I'm not sure there's an issue, but if there's a policy that says different I'm happy to make whatever changes are necessary. I see your point that it's very similar to the original, but it's not a quotation of the original, and it's cited. Perhaps someone with more expertise than I have will weigh in? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The phrases duplication beyond what can be said as reasonable, so the line has to be rewritten. As I tell people, the ballpark is unique phrase of three words or more in a row. The "people clamor for" tipped me off as unusual language for an encyclopedia, which is why I picked up on it. Please just go through and rewrite the line and any others you noticed, and I will AGF that there are no other similar problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:41, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. I understand your concern. The wording is close enough that it's certainly a grey area if not an outright no no.

I didn't want to put something that wasn't a direct quotation in quotes, and apart from the word clamor, in my opinion, there didn't seem to be a lot research that could reasonably be construed as being plagarized. There's a location, the word "people" and "for", and the name of the event (which I did put in quotes). I considered putting clamor in quotation marks, but I thought that would violate MOS. When I change the word "clamor", I'm paraphrasing, but I'm also using what to some extent amounts to original research. I've seen people argue endlessly about what a source actually "said" so I guess that's why I'm sometimes reluctant to do aggressive rewording.

I've replaced clamor with popular, which I think hews close enough to the original meaning, while still being a reword, and I also changed the sentence order a bit. My understanding, and I've just reviewed wp:plagarism, is that the key is the amount and extent of the content used and the level of attribution used to attribute and recognize its origin. I think 3 words is a very strict interpretation, especially if it applies to words that aren't distinctive or meaningful in any way.

I've actually been meaning to rewrite the "end of" section as quite a lot of it is taken from one source. I used quotations and mentioned the paper itself as well as using citations, but it still needs a trim and some consolidation. I think I was sucked in by the fun wording of the statements!

Please let me know if you have any other concerns. Cheers. Thanks for your civility in discussing the issues you've raised. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

That's all your charm used up for the rest of the month... Bigger digger (talk) 22:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have a lot of respect for Ottava. I've seen this editor take unpopular stands, raise some very good points in discussions, and I think they have a lot of integrity for doing so. I know from personal experience that it isn't always pleasant to be the nail that sticks up on Wikipedia.

I moved the article for you BD. I hope that's okay, you did give your permission, but I guess there was really no rush. You know what they say: exciting times call for excited actions. :) Won't be long now. Still time for one more bacon article? Hahhaha. I hope everyone involved had fun. It was nice that some people I hadn't worked with previously took part. :) The alliance that extends over the geographic and culinary pond between us and that bridges BLT (sandwich) and bacon butty, shouldn encourage us to work together and tackle common problems, like the need for more bacon article on Wikipedia.

Was it you who mentioned another "contest" of some sort for another area of articles? There was something mentioned on WT:DYK about it, but I can't remember what the topic area was. Has anything come of it? I think I need a couple weeks (or days anyway) break, and then I'm ready for the next "Big Thing". Someone suggested a "best article on Wikipedia" contest on Jimbo's page, which immediately elicited a lot of support and some dramatic opposition to the idea of something that might cause drama. I'm a big supporter of dramatically opposing any dramatic changes or new ideas that could provoke drama. :) Have you heard about the Elvis/ peanut butter and banana/ bacon/ sandwich controversy? I'm trying to stoke the flames, but not much doing so far... ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Ottava is an impressively busy editor and great contributor, I've seen the Ottava name everywhere. Fine about moving the article, I did invite anyone to, although I enjoyed the fact you moved it to the full name first, before moving it again to Seduced by Bacon - anything to keep the edit count ticking over ;-)

The BLT is well established over here, so we're practically neighbours. I might actually do the bacon ice cream article tomorrow, but don't hold your breath. And yes, over on WT:DYK there's mention of an International ID4 Challenge. Something along the lines of flagging up other countries' Independence Days on July 4, but there was some debate and it's kinda fizzled. They need someone inspiring, dynamic, charismatic, dogmatic, phlegmatic and useful in a tight situation. How about you?Do you know anyone suitable?!

Thanks for the rewrite. As I said, the key is the unique part. If I were to say, "President of the United States Barack Obama says", then that would obviously not count. :) The "clamor" definitely seemed like artistic flair taken by a columnist (not by a reporter, but there are few true reporters so its hard to tell) to spice up their description. I looked at your rewrite and had a simple suggestion (there was a redundancy). Try: "At Bad Decisions, a bar in Fells Point, Baltimore, the popular "Bacon and Beer Happy Hours" employs a unique menu devoted to creative bacon dishes and offers large bowls filled with bacon on the bar for customers." How does that sound? Ottava Rima (talk) 00:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully, this kind of hair splitting can be a problem when policies are overinterpreted and taken into effect too technically (beyond what they actually say). Your rewrite of the sentence suggests that the menu is unique and that the event is "popular", which is original research not actually stated in the article. The article says: The bacon scene simmers in Baltimore, too. At Bad Decisions bar in Fells Point, people clamor for the Bacon and Beer Happy Hours. The next one is set for April 14. Bar owner John Reusing infuses his whole menu with bacon - he's done bacon-wrapped plantains and cheesy bacon fries - and places big bowls of bacon on the bar. "At the last one, I went through 30 pounds of bacon in about two hours," he says."

I'm not sure which articles you work on, but on those I've worked on, people can be very technical about original research and about editors applying synthesizing what sources say. I think it's reasonable to infer that the event is popular. But even that can be disputed (just as you are disputing how many words it takes to amount to plagarism) and there's nothing in the source that says they serve a "unique" menu. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, and I'm very flexible on how the bit is worded, but you've rendered a strong oppose based on statements that are less closesly worded to their sources than this one, and as I think this discussion and editing process shows, judgement about appropriateness are subjective and some latitude needs to be granted. Anyone who objects to the way something is worded or attributed is welcome to modify it. It's clear that lifting a paragraph is plagarism. It's also clear that describing something in a way that isn't in the source can be problematic. This creates challenges and a need for balance. I would also like to point out that the bit we are discussing is much closer to the source than those you've identified as being problematic from another editor.

So my point to you is, when a source is cited, unless it is word for word preserved it shouldn't be quoted, and it shouldn't be altered meaningfully because that would be misattribution. Within these boundaries there is room for interpretation, but there is a popular saying that goes "Judge not lest ye be judged." ;) I agree with you that the original sentence I used was VERY close to the source I cited. I've tried to explain why that decision was made in this particular case. There's not that much content to work with, and simply changing order or using a synonym for a word does NOT actually eliminate plagarism. The citation attributes the statement and that's the source for it. I understand your understanding of how the policies apply is not identical to mine, but I hope you can recognize that we approach the issue with the same interest in quality sourcing and attribution. ChildofMidnight (talk) 00:59, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Popular for people clamoring would not be OR per its definition - "a vehement expression of desire or dissatisfaction" with the context that it is favorable. Popular is a versatile word that can suggest a large crowd or a tiny crowd and still have popularity. Now, the "unique" part is the happy hour menu is unique to the rest of the menu, meaning, it is separate, which is suggested from the article (hence a "happy hour menu"). Obviously, the words can be switched out, and it is merely a suggestion to remove the redundancy. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:37, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

From a suggestion from Bongomatic...

The seed idea for this article was given me by Bongomatic three weeks ago. When I finally got to it earlier today, I was so caught up I had to keep chugging away ubtil I reached this point. Now I'm looking for input. User:MichaelQSchmidt/The Final Inch Any advice? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 06:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I left you a couple notes in the text... What's on tap for this weekend? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Saw your notes. Sweet tweaks. The items you felt might be quotes are actually a condensation from several lengthy interviews of the diector. When she took 5 sentemces to say something, I took away the flowery language and hyperbole and made it as simple and factual as possible in one sentence. Since the iformation was her's, I had to attribute her as the source. Maybe I should add back all her verbiage and include it in quotes? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 09:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'll have another look. Maybe I can "tweak" in something about, The director said,". Not sure, they just seemed like opinions that needed clearer attribution. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Just fixed my typos above. Sheesh. I need a new keyboard. And hey... got confirmation for the T&E stuff in July. 7/24 Live show in San Diego. 7/25 AwesomeCon picnic. 7/26 Live show in Anaheim. :) Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 18:41, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Further expanded and sourced. Neutralized POV. Removed weasel. Made nicer. Check again, please. Am thinking of going live and am even now considering a couple nice DYKs. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 20:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Have gone live and submitted a suitable DYK.Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Looks good. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

S Marshall for admin

Please see User_talk:S_Marshall#How_about_it.3F. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm always 3 or 4 steps ahead of you. And I've now scored in flag football on the beach two weeks in a row. See Shake 'N Bake for more information... Hey it's fun giving you a hard time about the article mix up. But I found the nom to be exceptionally well written otherwise. If K-Schtick can pass his RfA despite being associated with the monstrosities/ articles I've created, it is even more of a testament to what a great editor he is. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you want to do a formal co-nom? I think it would be a good idea if you are up for it. Hobit (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Be careful what you wish for. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Rare video footage of an early AfD review

A member of the Editorial Board explains his views to the audience

Note: this section has been completely rewritten since being listed by nom. Aymatth2 (talk) 23:24, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

[2]? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

S. Marshall

I intend to support this editor's candidacy should the nomination be accepted. I noticed this sentence in your recent co-nomination:

"I encourage everyone to support his candidacy for office at least once."

I know that you intend it to be in jest, but that sounds like another endorsement to employ socks and meats - something your own candidacy fell foul of as I recall. I recommend that you refactor that sentence so that this editor's RfA is not tainted. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:18, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I understand your concern and so I have modified my statement accordingly. See what you think. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The qualifier should be sufficient (it seems fine to me); however, if it was me I'd probably cut out the joke completely. Some people have had their sense of humor surgically removed and it is conceivable they could use your words against you in the future. It shouldn't do any harm to the RfA now though. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree a straight nom might be better. But I think it's a fair compromise. Those looking for ammunition to use against me will have no problem finding far stronger stuff than that bit, and I have to hope and trust that my bad jokes will not be held against the nominee. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That seems fine to me. Anyway, you could always cite this conversation if anyone gives you any crap about it. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

What'cha think?

Decent enough rescue? Any suggestions? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 03:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I know there's a plot summary, but would you mind telling me what the movie is about in the introduction and the article body? Is it a love story? Is it about Memphis? That would help me out a lot. I can't speak for what others care about. WTFK? :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Read This. And better, Memphis Flyer, which more specifically says "Team Picture focuses on a few days (or perhaps weeks) in the life of a young man named Dave (played by Audley under his given name), who is caught between his ostensibly normal work and family life and his more bohemian home life. At the outset, Dave shows up for work at a Germantown sporting goods store, looking uncomfortable in khaki pants and a tucked-in baby-blue polo shirt and exchanging awkward conversation with his boss, a jocky and jocular man (played by local sportscaster Greg Gaston) who also happens to be his mother's boyfriend. Audley cuts from this scene to a shot of Dave at home and at ease — wearing cutoff shorts, a straw hat, and sunglasses, strumming an acoustic guitar and filling up a kiddie pool in the overgrown front yard of the Midtown house he shares with roommate Eric." I always wonder just what to use and what not.. how much is too much and how much is not enough. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Schmidty just tell me what the movie is about. Don't make me read stuff. :) Sorry. I'm a little sleepy. Do you want me to have a look? I think we can say:

• The movie is about the life of a young man whose interactions at an ordinary job and with his family are a stark contrast to his bohemian home life with friends. Fitting into the khaki pants and shirt tucked in demands of a job, is an adjustment for a character apt to strum an acoustic guitar in cutoff shorts while wearing a straw hat by the backyard kiddie pool.

Voila!ChildofMidnight (talk) 04:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Beat ya to it. :) Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:18, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

your sock, sir?

Eh...care to explain this? Drmies (talk) 05:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

You know I don't use language that mild. Isn't this a school night? The late hour and your educational duties leads me to wonder... Please remember that rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning? ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:05, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello, ChildofMidnight. You have new messages at Smartse's talk page.
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homegrown is alright with me

Haha, look at the image I added for Seed swap. Drmies (talk) 20:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not looking. I'm too scared. I'm going to go put up the BC2009 hooks. After I'm done, would you have a look and do whatever clean up is required? Gracias! ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Sure thing. Hey, I thought you'd appreciate that article, given your interest in communal things like potlachs. Drmies (talk) 21:55, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I am a big fan of potlach, especially as it seems related to totem poles. I am also a fan of potlucks, a culinary event that cleary deserves its own monumental statuary. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Banh

Where are your photos and why did you get in trouble? Give me accent marks or I won't be able to make sense of what you're typing. Badagnani (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Message

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Another one

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It may be time to make the final push

I don't know how these situations work, so I don't know how to evaluate how this goes. I know that it was relisted for "consensus" and as it stands now it looks like a split vote. However, in terms of contigency, how does the appeals process work if the unthinkable happens? I have read notability. This clearly satisfies it. So, how do we make said argument, or at least, get an extension on this. --Genovese12345 (talk) 20:33, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

And Now for Something Completely Different

We have some serious matters to discuss, the articles for Bacon Challenge 2009 not going up in the same update is both disappointing and anticlimactic. What is the incentive to actually participate if you are not going to have an entire bacon update. Nobody would notice that the challenge even occurred it just looks like a bunch of bacon articles got put up on DYK. Before the challenge started was there ever official opposition? I don't remember it. I guess silence doesn't mean acceptance. Hopefully we can get approval for national pig day next year or else I do not see the point in proceeding. But I suppose that the challenge was a success as we got 8+ articles about important subjects written and nominated, which was the goal. Also your dream about an article on turkey bacon is now realized. --kelapstick (talk) 05:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I proposed it and noted it on the DYK discussion page early on to try and get a feel for how it would be received. I was open about the challenge all along. There was no opposition expressed, but as you point out, silence does not equal consent. I'm sorry if I overpromised and underdelivered, but I did expect there to be some opposition, as there are always people resistant to innovations and the making of waves or actions that might make waves.

We do what we can. I think it was a very positive collaboration and I think it resulted in some outstanding and interesting articles. Many people have been made aware of the Challenge, and I think it sets a good example for similar initiatives. I know there are other competitions on Wikipedia regarding adding citations and such. Hopefully the challenge has a bright future, I don't see why it wouldn't.

I am not (yet) all powerful, but if I were I would certainly have complied with your expectations. I did group the hooks together on the DYK page where quite a few people saw them. I haven't been folowing the main page closely, but I hope a couple will make it on as photos and get some good attention. I tried to indicate that we would try to have them be together, but that there was no guarantee, but I don't really remember exactly what I said. Looking back I'm not even sure I mentioned the challenge on the Food and Drink talk page, did I?

Anyway, I was always waiting for someone to object or criticize. I think the response was really pretty positive all things considered, and even a Lady of Shallots was sucked in. It wasn't a mainspace project, so I think we have to take what we can get. Whether it will fly as an update on National Pig Day, I don't know. I expect there will be some objections to doing bacon articles on pig day for similar reasons to those for doing an all bacon update on any other day, as well as new objections. If you want to a have a pig project that might be different.

You got a lot of support K-stick! It's an interesting process. And you did quite a bit better than I did, despite my gentle nature and soft touch. So you must be doing something right. Check out the Shake 'n Bake Canadian ad. I added it to the article in your honor! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't follow the machinations of DYK, but I did notice a posting at the Village Pump (policy?) about a discussion about themed DYKs in general. Apparently, there's some opposition to having any themes (such as for holidays or anything). It might be something you'd want to find and comment about if you feel strongly about having them. LadyofShalott 06:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Good point. And the consensus was pretty strong from the experts, so I think we should conclude that themed updates, with a few exceptions, are frowned upon. Makin' bacon will have to be reward enough in and of itself. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:01, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Alas, we could not have our bacon and eat it too. I saw your comments at DYK, but like I said didn't see opposition until B-Day, could have been tunnel vision though. I did notice that Dylan wanted to join in the fun, and didn't notice that BC09 had already passed (reinforces my earlier point about people not noticing). That is too bad but on the bright side he will make an excellent addition to BC10. He must be a super guy with great judgment as he named a day after me. (you can consider this your official RfA thankspam) Thanks again for coming out and supporting my RfA, you probably read my justification etc. at Doc Mies' talk page. I appreciate the discussions that you took part in both on and off the official page. I appreciate all the effort and commentary. On the bright side metals are up today[3] so maybe I should get back to less important matters, such as building a mine.--kelapstick (talk) 20:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

RE:RFA

I don't really follow the RFA pages (I only pop in once in a while to double check content contribs), so I'm unsure what recent nom you may be referring to. In any case, one of the best ways to avoid copyright problems and the gnarly issue of "how much change is enough" when paraphrasing is just not to paraphrase altogether. That is, start the prose from scratch rather than using the source material's wording as a baseline and trying to reword things. It's a difficult thing to do, and takes practice and willpower to not take the lazier route. Internalize your source material, think about how you would construct the ideas/thoughts into prose, and go from there. It all comes down to practice, and in the end, after numerous iterations of this exercise, it helps writers find their own voice, too. WP:OR really shouldn't come into play as long as one understands the source material correctly. The ideas certainly originate from somewhere, but how these ideas are structured into prose should be a creative process. Original prose is different than original research.

Ideally, I'd love to see every admin candidate try his/her hand at writing an article (whether a brand new one or picking among the numerous ones that badly need a rewrite). The entire process, from research to the actual writing, gives candidates a comprehensive view of the encyclopedia-building process;after all, we're here to build first-rate content, and admins are here to facilitate this goal. BuddingJournalist 05:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I know from personal experience that every word can be parsed if it isn't consistent with what the source says, so there is alse pressure to stay close to the sources and to avoid accusations of synth. But such is life, there's always a need for balance. I do think some latitude should be granted to cited material, as citations provide attribution and a clear indication of where something is from. Rewording and rewriting too much can also create problems of misattribution where content is NOT consistent with the source. But I agree that we must do our best to avoid plagarism. Thanks very much for sharing your insights. They are well considered. ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:48, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I've encountered the problem of editors misrepresenting sources numerous times in my short career at Wikipedia. But in actuality, some of these cases arose when folks used the prose of the source material as a baseline and tried to futz around with various "synonyms" to accomplish a successful "paraphrase"; to me, it seemed like these editors didn't really understand the source material to begin with, which is the larger issue. Certainly, using original wording makes the challenge of matching the source material's ideas harder, but it is a skill necessary for any form of serious writing, and one vital to the building of an encyclopedia.

As an aside, on that RFA, I find it troubling that many editors seemed to brush off the other copyright concerns so readily. Copyright violations are a serious matter and are probably second only to BLP issues that can so thoroughly damage the reputation of Wikipedia. I'm glad Kelapstick recognized the seriousness of these concerns; I wish other editors would take a similar attitude. BuddingJournalist 05:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

If what's on that RfA's talk page are copyvios, and I see your point and agree they are somewhat borderline, I think many RfAs would fail under the same scrutiny. I have found that if I go looking for problems I often find them. We are all human. And if it isn't using too much from the source, it's something else. :) But I think your explanations and reasoning are sound. You would be a good candidate to clarify the policy. And I think no matter how it's written there will be a sizable grey area.ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Some of the examples are certainly borderline (which is one reason I advocate starting prose from scratch rather than trying to reword things to try to get it "paraphrased enough"). But taken holistically, and given the fact that they are from multiple articles, they are more troubling. Also, having just re-read the plagiarism guideline, I believe it's inadequate and confusing in it's current form. However, I'm not sure I have the time and energy to take on the Sisyphean task of substantially editing a guideline and gaining consensus. :) Maybe I'll just pen an essay instead... BuddingJournalist 06:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

It's late in the evening here now. But I will say the process you describe of reading something, understanding it, and putting it into one's own words borders at least as much on issues of OR and synth, it seems to me, as taking content, attributing it with cites, and paraphrasing it or rephrasing approaches plagarism. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, there are certainly pitfalls to avoid with both. However, I wouldn't say the risk with the former is original research so much as misrepresentation of the sources. Then again, that issue still rears its head when one tries to paraphrase/change wording. BuddingJournalist 07:28, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

BC2009

I see that it's been over two weeks since anybody else has joined, but since I'm interested in participating (perhaps starting off with the Bacon maple doughnut article), I'd like to ask you this; can anybody, anybody at all, join? → Dylan620 (Toolbox Alpha, Beta) 13:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Miniature pig

On May 31, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Miniature pig, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Dravecky (talk) 14:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Destill, my beating heart.

I bought some cheap vodka, but some great bacon and a granny smith apple. I was thinking about making apple-bacon vodka. Do you think that's too much? I wanted something for a bloody mary. Maybe I should make celery vodka. Law _{type! snype?} 02:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you considered cheddar-infused vodka? I just made a comment on the talk page that suggestion some categories of vodka infusions and I confess cheese didn't even occur to me until now. Bongomatic 02:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

That is an excellent idea. I think I will go to the store and get several minijars. I will do one bacon, one cheddar, one celery, and one other, yet tbd. I'll snap a fabulous pic. Law _{type! snype?} 03:14, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I have a feeling the cheese won't work very well (suggestively few references found in a number of reasonable Google searches, and those references were not encouraging). But if it does, you're on your way to a bacon-cheeseburger martini, which would really be something. Bongomatic 03:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't trust the Internet for big decisions. Law _{type! snype?} 03:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I think slightly charred ground beef would probably infuse very well. As might onion. Let me know how the cheese comes out. Bongomatic 04:15, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The batch I've been making in my tub is almost ready, and I haven't added bacon to it. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:40, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Someone's stolen your idea... Still, they don't yet seem to be offering a bacon-cheeseburger martini, so there's still a gap in the market. Bigger digger (talk) 17:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Re:suggestion

Yours and Scjessey's findings and subsequent remedies were the hardest for me to see what needs to be handled and what does not, primarily for the reasons you state. That's why I put the block of you two in a separate finding, because other arbitrators might be thinking the same thing you are and will oppose it. As for whether some punishments seem harsher than others, with one getting a slap on the wrist, I looked through all the diffs and went by what they were doing, i didn't go in with any preconceived notions. As for article probation, I was unaware that no one was really using it during this time, I'll keep that in mind, since my votes may not remain the same as they are now, other arbitrators may make note of something I miss or interpreted wrongly. As for the templating, I'll separate that finding out because it is reaching a bit, as you said, and it's possible that that finding will fail. Wizardman 03:04, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of my userpage

I put that retired template on my page for the Hell of it a while ago to see if anyone would say or do anything about it because my page gets 100s of views when I make articles. No one has done anything I think I'll remove it; it's false of course but who cares? Is that suppossed to be taken seriously and really not put on for the Hell of it? Must not be too stirring; thousands of views have happened and no one has said a thing about it.

Also a while back someone edited one of my userboxes. They put NOT in the box that says this user is god (this user is NOT God); they titled the edit removed arrogance. lol Daniel Christensen (talk) 15:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I saw that you were retired. But lots of people seem to continue to work even after retirement these days. Times are tough. Maybe I'll put one on my userpage and see if anyone says anything. Wikipedia would probably throw a block party.

The "not" addition sounds like a reasonable edit as long as it was cited. :) ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I was never retired. I just put it there to get a reaction because I thought it looked cool when I found it. Yeah, I think it would be funny if any admin put one on their userpage but kept contributing at a normal or increased rate. But yeah I never got a reaction,even as I kept pumping out articles. Daniel Christensen (talk) 02:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

DYK problem

Hello! Your submission of National Pig Day at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! --Giants27 (t|c|r|s) 21:30, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Would one of my amigos (or the Lady of Shallots) be so kind as to add categories to this article? Thanks! ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I added Category:March observances, but I don't think it falls under the Category:Pigs (about actual types of pigs) or Category:Pork, is it is more about the pig than the pork. Maybe Pigs, but with a * to bring it to the top as the rest are actual types of pigs. Talk amongst yourselves.--kelapstick (talk) 22:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

What about agriculture or something? Is a Lua (sp?) in any applicable categories? ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Nah, luau is in Hawaiian culture, meals and Hawaiian words and phrases. Assuming that is what you meant. Although there is the 2009 swine flu outbreak action against pigs in Category:Pigs so that may actually be appropriate.--kelapstick (talk) 22:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Steamed clams

I've been tied up with other matters, but I finally got around to thinking clearly about the questions you posted on my talk page.

The distinction between "steamed" and "steamer" clams quickly becomes confusing... I agree with your idea that the content about steamer clams (as a type of clam) in the steamed clams article should be merged into Soft-shell clam, and the steamed clams article should be repurposed as an article about preparing and eating steamed clams (i.e., focusing on steaming as a method of preparing this and other types of clams). I see that some good improvements have been made along these lines.

I'm relieved to see that the reference to the NY Times article "HEPATITIS TRACED TO STEAMED CLAMS; Physicians Find Cooking Not Sufficient to Kill Virus-- Frying Is Called Safe" has been removed. Unless someone has read the whole article, it's not much of a basis for a statement in an encyclopedia article. My reading of the free snippet from that article is that people are as likely to get hepatitis from eating steamed clams as from eating clams raw on the half shell. That's shocking, if true. If there is additional information on the health and safety aspects of steaming clams, it would be good to add it to the article. --Orlady (talk) 21:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

• (moved to bottom so I don't forget to folluw up... ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC))

I wish to note the hyperbolic headline carried by the NY Times about steamed clams. I agree with Orlady that it is a shocking assertion, and I'm confident that it's just as accurate as the rest of what's reported in that source. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

The article (from the first paragraph—I'm too cheap to pay the four bucks) appears to report on what several doctors stated, but doesn't necessarily embrace the conclusion. Interestingly, the following day reported that "Shellfish as Cause Of Hepatitis Here Discounted by City". I think without understanding the overall sense of the article is likely to run afoul of WP:UNDUE. Bongomatic 16:07, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not in the article any more so no problem with undue. I had reservations about putting it in originally. But that source is considered reliable by Wikipedia policy, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I agree we should be VERY careful about using anything [that we haven't actually read—Bongomatic 16:20, 2 June 2009 (UTC)] from that tabloid rag. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:11, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with CoM about many things, but hope we can make friends about clams. The "Ipswich" steamed clams, with the big peelable necks, are very good with butter, and proper fried clams, with the crunchy stomachs, are good with tartar sauce. ("Neck" and "Stomach" aren't necessarily anatomically correct here, but true clam fans will understand.) And nobody could possibly object to clams browned with lots of crumbs, parsley, and garlic. PhGustaf (talk) 15:22, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm leaning towards a separate article on steamers (the clam and the dish) per Orlady's suggestions, and sections in the steamed clams article to include the notable varieties and preparations. Bigger than bacon? No. But surely we can dig up some good content on clams so they aren't shut out of the action. ChildofMidnight (talk) 15:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The Boston, or Ipswitch, clams have distinctive necks with inedible sheathes. The routine was to put these creatures into a tub with fresh water and cornmeal in the hope that they would disgorge any disgusting stuff they'd et whilst feasting on the corn. Boston clams are not, though, the same as the ones that show up in the Tadich Grill's cioppino, nor the ones sushi chefs have so much fun with.

PhGustaf (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2009 (UTC)