Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

Percentages

The section titled "percentages" does not specify that percentages should be written in figures, not words. That IS specified in the section "Numbers as figures or words", under exception bullet #9. Would it be OK for me to add that sentence - "Percentages are usually written with figures, e.g., 10 percent or 10%." - into the section "Percentages"? Here's why: at this article we are having a knock-down-drag-out fight over somebody's preference for "seventy percent". This sentence should end the debate, but I had not seen it because I was looking under WP:PERCENT. Thanks. --MelanieN (talk) 21:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Since no one has objected, I went ahead and copied the sentence into the "Percentages" section. --MelanieN (talk) 20:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Open date ranges

Our guidance on date ranges (and numerical ranges) clearly specifies that we use a en dash to separate the start and end points, so 1998–2004 is an obvious example. I would have thought that open ranges such as 1998– (meaning 1998 to the present) would have followed by analogy, but it seems that is not the case. The following is documented at Template:Infobox soap character 2:

• "Closed dates should be separated by an en dash –. Open dates (for characters still in the show) should end with an em dash —."

This seems an anomalous use of the em dash, which is not used as a range separator anywhere else in Wikipedia. Is there consensus here for making it clear that the en dash is the only separator we use for date (or numeric ranges) – whether they be open or closed? --RexxS (talk) 01:23, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that we didn't use open ranges in Wikipedia, and that we closed them with "present". Waltham, The Duke of 21:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

That opens the door to "2012–present", which is nonsensical. Anyway, the em dash shouldn't be used as a range separator. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:38, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

When I wrote the documentation for the soap character template quoted, I am sure that I read it in the MOS at the time, which is why so many articles use the em dash this way. We were doing it even before the documentation was written. So I think it must have been in the MOS at some point, somewhere, and has since been removed. Otherwise we'd have stuck with the en dash all this time. It should be clarified anyway. –anemoneprojectors– 11:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Removal of YYYY-MM-DD as ref format

Somewhat old news, but User:Gimmetoo removed the ISO format as a valid reference date format in August 2011 without acknowledgement that that change had been made. I have searched for a discussion about its removal and have come up with a blank. Was it intentionally removed? Am I safe to restore the ISO format as a valid date format (given previous consensus, and its neutral usage and conciseness)? SFB 19:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I think so. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Er, that edit looks like Gimmetoo was restoring the YYYY-MM-DD allowance that was removed. I've not seen anything to counter the use of those in date/accessdate parts of a reference either. --MASEM (t) 19:53, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

On second check, I'm essentially proposing something that was mentioned in the conversation related to that edit a year ago: can we use the YYYY-MM-DD format for publication dates in references? And if not, why not? SFB 20:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The present text does not place any requirement on what the publication date format should be, only that whichever format is used should be used consistently. Basically, there are three groups: dates in the body of the article, publication dates, and access/archive dates. Each group should be internally consistent, but do not have to be consistent with each other. Publication dates could be in any format at all, except the ambiguous all-numeric formats like 08/09/2012. This guideline says access/archive dates can either match the publication dates, or be in the YYYY-MM-DD format. However WP:CITE says any consistent style is acceptable, and there is at least one recognized style that would comply with WP:CITE and not WP:MOSNUM. Jc3s5h (talk) 03:36, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I have added the note from WP:Cite to explain that various styles other than dmy/mdy can be used for publication dates (that information had to be inferred or read from another page previously). SFB 06:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I've reverted it. The guidance at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers #Full date formatting gives the two generally accepted full date formats and YYYY-MM-DD is not one of them, probably because most editors parse 'April' much more easily than "-04-". The guidance on this page relating to YYYY-MM-DD indicates that it is uncommon in prose but may be useful where conciseness is needed, yet there is no argument made that the publication date in a reference benefits from being concise. In addition, the strongest argument for having access dates in ISO format is that it helps distinguish them "at a glance" from publication dates which have been overwhelmingly in dmy or mdy format throughout wikipedia. It's not helpful to encourage a proliferation of inconsistent formats without good reason. --RexxS (talk) 20:29, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Except that it has been long argued that YYYY-MM-DD is acceptable only for use within cite template dates and accessdates, though consistency within references must be upheld. Just in May this year that was affirmed Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers/Archive 137. YYYY-MM-DD anywhere else is unacceptable. --MASEM (t) 21:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Just noting that RexxS' reversion here [1] is saying exactly what I'm saying , limiting but allowing YYYY-MM-DD formats in citations only and nowhere else. That is, this version is "good" with current consensus. --MASEM (t) 21:04, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Ideally, we'd have some kind of date processing, either in MediaWiki or a Wikipedia template, like {{Start date}}, so people could emit YYYY-MM-DD dates which are machine-understandable (and can be emitted as such in bibliographic metadata), and we'd output dates formatted either according to an in-template setting, or a user preference. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:44, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Date autoformatting went the way of the dodo. The short answer is any preference that renders text differently due to being logged in or not is bad for WP, as you are suddenly potentially catering to a smaller audience. --MASEM (t) 21:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Funny. I have skins, widgets, preferences and user scripts that do just that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

They don't actually change the text content of the article. --MASEM (t) 00:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Andy, we need editors to see the text as our readers do. That was one of the most serious faults with date-autoformatting, which meant no one ever fixed the mess of inconsistencies within articles—like ostriches, we could see them. Tony (talk) 00:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Agree. I used to have my preference set to mdy because I'm American. But then I realized that an editor should see articles the way most readers see them. Most readers have no preference because only an editor has a reason to log in. Or are we talking about something more complicated? Art LaPella (talk) 01:03, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

RexxS: the RfC you supported which would have excluded the YYYY-MM-DD from footnotes, failed. I call upon you to respect the outcome of that RFC. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

But I'm not excluding ISO dates from footnotes. I'm recognising that MOS - like all guidelines - documents practice on wikipedia. The reality is that when full dates are used for publication dates, they overwhelmingly spell out the month. Do you think that the version of MOS that I reverted to excludes ISO dates from footnotes - or just accurately reflects the fact they are hardly ever used for publication dates? --RexxS (talk) 11:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Let's just see where you're going with this. You want to use ISO for publication dates, right? So you are advocating writing publication dates like "2004", "April 2004", "Spring 2004", "2004-04-27" all in the same article. A coach and horses through consistency. Are you really claiming there is consensus for that? --RexxS (talk) 12:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

For many articles (but not all), all of the sources can have their publication and access dates written in that ISO format (or otherwise plain years as in the case of books) without a problem. Since the requirement is consistency, that's okay to use there. On the other hand, if you have a wide varied mix where publication dates do vary as much as this, then the ISO date is probably a poor choice and one of the other accepted formats needs to be used to achieve that consistency. --MASEM (t) 12:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I do not the agree with the statement by RexxS that "I'm recognising that MOS - like all guidelines - documents practice on wikipedia." I believe guideline's document what the community considers to be good practices, practices which could be applied to a non-compliant article. The decisions about which practices are good and which ones aren't are based on consensus, and the strongest way to document a consensus is an RfC. There was an attempt to find consensus through an RfC that publication dates in the YYYY-MM-DD format was a bad practice, and that RfC failed. By the way, I supported that RfC just like RexxS did, but it didn't come out the way I would have preferred. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Then the clear corollary of your belief is that guidelines do not document practice on Wikipedia, but only community consensus on what constitutes good practices. How then is community consensus to be determined? A few RfC's have shown what is - or isn't - consensus for a tiny handful of practices, but what of the other 99% of the MOS? Are we to assume that a self-selected group knows best what is good practice for the rest of Wikipedia? Or do we recognise that the editors who document practice in the MOS look at what is actually done in articles as the yard-stick for determining community consensus? I know which of the two I prefer. --RexxS (talk) 15:02, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

RexxS asks "are we to assume that a self-selected group knows best what is good practice for the rest of Wikipedia?" Yes. The qualification of this group is that it cares about style. Most contributors don't care about style, which is why the style in most articles is crap. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:16, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• YYYY-MM-DD dates are crap. We should get rid of them and use date formats that humans and real-world sources use, rather than cater for a few editors who prefer the machine-style dates. There is no evidence that our readers find the ISO dates helpful and we should remember that these are our customers. --John (talk) 18:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
  • There's no evidence that our readers find ISO dates unhelpful either. Again, just in May we have reconfirmed their use restricted to reference lists only is supported by consensus. --MASEM (t) 18:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
    • Has evidence been sought, from readers as opposed to editors, that they find the ISO dates helpful? --John (talk) 19:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
      • No, but there's no reason to single out this issue: nearly all WP policy is based on editors providing input, with the assumption that most of those editors have been readers before. --MASEM (t) 19:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
        • Indeed, and on all WP policy discussions the argument that "there's no evidence that our readers find x unhelpful either" is an especially weak one. --John (talk) 19:23, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
          • Almost as weak as "there's no evidence that our readers find x helpful". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
            • Weaker, because the onus is usually on somebody who wants to retain something to show evidence that it provides some benefit. In the absence of any such evidence, it is usually permissible to get rid of it. Hence my question. --John (talk) 19:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
              • The point is from the last time this was argued (and times before that), that unlike the use of YYYY-MM-DD dates in prose - where the reader likely will need to stop and think about what that means and negatively impact their understanding in a small way - YYYY-MM-DD are just data elements in citations, which are not read like prose. There's no benefit nor harm in putting datas in YYYY-MM-DD here because readers have to process the entire citation as data, not as prose. Thus, there's no impedus to favor or disallow YYYY-MM-DD over any other date type except when it comes to consistency, which is something that can harm the reader if we don't have a consistent citation style in the article. --MASEM (t) 19:40, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• • • • • • • • The very fact that many editors over many years have taken the trouble to argue each side of this should be sufficient evidence that they find 1 Jan 2001 (or Jan 1, 2001 or 2001-01-01 respectively) to be helpful to them. We should take that as a given, even if we doubt that their preference is the right one. How many editors will take the trouble to advocate something they think is useless? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:46, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
                • "How many editors will take the trouble to advocate something they think is useless?" How long have you been on Wikipedia? Mugginsx (talk) 14:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Agree that YYYY-MM-DD should be avoided (and thankfully real practice on WP seems to be pushing it the way of the dodo). WP has made the decision to spell out months to avoid the ambiguity that (something like) 1/2/2012 presents, however I'm certain that (something like) 2012-02-01 will present an ambiguity for at least some percentage of our readers (and I'm also convinced that there will be some readers who will look at 2012-02-01 and not even realise it is a date—as it is very nerdy and could easily be regarded as some sort of other identifier). No one has ever presented a convincing case for why the risks associated with YYYY-MM-DD should be taken when they can easily be avoided (and I do support the use of abbreviated months when space is at a minimum). I believe that a petition page should be set up somewhere so that opponents of YYYY-MM-DD can mount a case and all watch a common location so that we are ready when the trumpet shall sound (with the hope that "we shall be changed"). :-) GFHandel ♬  22:13, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

"2012-12-01" has zero ambiguity. There is no commonly recognized date format where the order is "YYYY-DD-MM". (compared to 1/12/2012 which does have ambiguity) And again, I point out we just had a discussion on this in May, so its very unlikely consensus has changed. The fortunate part is that if we ever decide to fully move away from YYYY-MM-DD date formats, bots will be able to easily change that, but that's not a reason to move away for it now. --MASEM (t) 22:33, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect you are too optimistic in your assessment of the potential for ambiguity. For example, having taught secondary school youngsters for 25 years, I confidently predict that a much higher proportion of them would misinterpret "2012-12-01" than "1 December 2012", and many would not comprehend the phrase "commonly recognized date format". YMMV. --RexxS (talk) 22:58, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid Masem is also too optimistic in writing "if we ever decide to fully move away from YYYY-MM-DD date formats, bots will be able to easily change that." It's hard for a human editor, never mind a bot, to figure out what date format and what citation format an article uses (if indeed there is a consistent choice). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jc3s5h (talk • contribs)

There is a reasonable level of competence that we expect from our readers here. I fully recognize that 1/12/2012 has the chance of being misinterpreted because both "MM/DD/YYYY" and "DD/MM/YYYY" are common and conflicting styles used around the world. But there is no place that recognizes "YYYY-DD-MM", and interpreting that in that way is flat out wrong. Yes, I see the point of a reader maybe being confused by, but that's the same as not knowing the meaning of a word or the like. A person with the education we expect them to have (high-school-ish), particularly in this day and age of computing, should recognize "2012-01-12" as "YYYY-MM-DD".

As for the conversion, the YYYY-MM-DD format is an easy phrase to regex on and make the conversion irregardless how its located in a citation; we'd have to know whether to use dmy or mdy format for the expanded English, but that's a trivial problem too. --MASEM (t) 23:43, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Everything is hard for an unsupervised bot. The only way for a bot to decide whether to use mdy or dmy is to count all occurrences of each format, and give up both are zero, or both are non-zero. Finding YYYY-MM-DD is hard because it will always be allowed in quotes and URLs. Although there are methods to ignore most quotes and URLs, I don't believe it is possible to ignore all of them. Of course, if the bot confined its attention to the date-related parameters of citation templates, that would be a bit easier. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:50, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

No, actually, the process we have is already there. We have templates {{Use mdy dates}} and {{Use dmy dates}} that editors add to articles (particularly in the dmy case) as future indication to bots of how to handle dates. If we were ever to reject YYYY-MM-DD formats, we would likely give editors time to tag articles appropriate, and then assume that if not otherwise given to default to one or the other. Or, even given that, searching an article via regex for spelled out dates is trivial and counting is fine. But most importantly, this is a MOS. The only time that it needs to be applied "forcefully" is when we're talking about reviewing an article for quality measures at GA or FA or A-class, all human actions. Past ArbCom cases have suggested that the MOS should not be controlled via bots unless for reasonably specific reasons. But irregardless, the concerns you state are really not significant that makes the use of YYYY-MM-DD now a problem; they all can be engineered appropriately. --MASEM (t) 23:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Regarding "Yes, I see the point of a reader maybe being confused by..." and " should recognize 2012-01-12 as YYYY-MM-DD ": the point is that there is no loss of functionality in removing the chance of problems (no matter how slight those problems might be) by using English. GFHandel ♬  00:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I've seen people in the US screw up by the "day month year" before, (in that they don't see the day as part of the day and think they only have a month and year, since that's how we'd write "month year") - I doubt that problem is reflexive for those outside the states reading US dates, but there's still the problem going the other way. That's no reason to force "month day, year" on everyone. Again, we're talking about dates in citations, not standard prose. The dates are there as data, not for meaning, so the data-oriented format YYYY-MM-DD is completely reasonable there. --MASEM (t) 00:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There is an argument that confusion isn't a function of location. If confusion (no matter how slight the chance) can be obviated by using English, then it doesn't matter whether it happens in "data" or "prose". I understand that you feel it "is completely reasonable there", but it is important to realise that there are those of us who don't feel the same; and I am yet to see the article that has suffered from having YYYY-MM-DD date formats changed to English equivalents. GFHandel ♬  00:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

So, MOS:DATEUNIFY#Consistency still seems to say that YYYY-MM-DD is acceptable for access dates, but Template:Cite_web/doc#URL says use the same format as other dates in the article. Which is it? —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 01:32, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:CITE says any consistent citation style is acceptable (except that dates like 08/09/2012 are unacceptable). Citation Style 1 is a style. So although YYYY-MM-DD is an acceptable format, you should use the format chosen by Citation Style 1. The problem there is that the Citation Style 1 help page and the instructions for {{Cite web}} don't agree. So you have to find a way to persuade the template fans to get their act together. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

This can easily be fixed by updating the documents of each cite template to add "in citations" as explained in Citation Style 1. --MASEM (t) 02:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Please note Gimmetoo's change today to the Cite template documentation (that adds YYYY-MM-DD as a "common" format). I have reverted that change (as per BRD) as I think such a change should be discussed by the wider community. GFHandel ♬  04:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that the entry was below the text

Citations within a page should use consistent formats. However, there is no consensus about which format is best. The following examples are for citations where one or more authors are listed in a single |author=authors parameter, using any format. Also shown below are some date formats that are commonly used in Wikipedia:

In other words, Gimmetoo was simply documenting a common practice, not creating one. This should not be controversial.LeadSongDog come howl! 05:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

But is it "common" (as putting it under section headings starting with "Common" would suggest)? I would argue that the number is still very small (compared to dmy and mdy), and that the addition of the format is an attempt to encourage its use (something that no one in the community there has found necessary for years). GFHandel ♬  05:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The ratio of what date formats are used probably vary by field. I know my browsing experience on WP, which generally stays in contemporary topics including current events, living persons, and published works, the YYYY-MM-DD format is quite common. I would suspect that ratio flips towards the appropriate mdy or dmy when you get to historical topics. But to say the YYYY-MM-DD is a minority date format is completely wrong. I do appreciate arguments that suggest that en route towards GA/FA that this be discouraged since the change is relatively easy, but again, MOS is not policy, so banning/forcing/automating change of such formats before gaining widespread approval is not going to work. --MASEM (t) 06:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Gimmetoo has ignored the WP:BRD process and has reverted my edit. I have started a discussion here. GFHandel ♬  05:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Many editors are fed up with Gimme's apparently militant one-track fixation on this matter. I suggest she ease off and engage with editors more productively. Tony (talk) 05:50, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Many users are fed up with the long-term refusal to follow the multiple RfCs about date formats. That Tony1 characterizes an example using yyyy-mm-dd format in the accessdate field as a "pet format" [2], despite years of RfCs and the clear, explicit wording of this very guideline that it is allowed, speaks volumes. As LeadSongDog says, this should not be controversial. The documentation used to have examples of accessdates in yyyy-mm-dd formats; these examples were removed and I have been unable to find the discussion about their removal at the time. User:GFHandel has previously noted that having only two example formats serves to encourage editors to use only those two formats; that effectively serves to undermine this very guideline. I also note that despite my name being used here, nobody bothered to inform me, nor has User:GFHandel informed me of any "discussion".. Finally, I note repeated incivility in this discussion, and that needs to stop immediately. Gimmetoo (talk) 06:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Talk about bothering a bees-nest! Come on guys, these are only dates. DMY, MDY and YYYY-MM-DD are the three most common formats here, thus I think the guidance in its current form is very sensible. If people wish to deprecate the usage of YYYY-MM-DD entirely then that is something that should be agreed by consensus first (just like we have reasonably done for dd/mm/yyyy and YYYY-MM-DD in prose etc). Note that the exclusion of YYYY-MM-DD from the guidance will lead some editors to push towards its de facto deprecation, despite a lack of consensus for such a move. The very fact that removal of YYYY-MM-DD guidance would cause uncountable changes and its inclusion wouldn't lead to the introduction of a new format says enough about its current usage. SFB 22:29, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

While on the subject of date formats in citations...

I might have missed this discussion but I notice the advice on this page now suggests one can use abbreviated months for dates & accessdates. I thought there was agreement before that the only time that abbreviated month names should be used in if one is tight on space, such as in a table and thus can use the shorter names there. Everywhere else (prose & in refs) we're not worried about the width the date takes up so it should always be the spelled out month. --MASEM (t) 06:11, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Some have argued that space is at a premium in citations. In paper style manuals, many tricks are suggested or required to save space. Since references in Wikipedia are usually are in-line with the wiki source code, making them shorter makes the wiki source code easier to read and edit. So you might not be persuaded by the argument, but the argument is not silly on its face. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

If space is a premium, then why are we complaining about the use of a fixed 10 character format that is always guaranteed to be one of the shortest options of representing a date? --MASEM (t) 15:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Because few of our readers will comprehend what it is; and if they do realise it's a date, they'll be confused or misled by the common day-month-year/month-day-year duality: does 2003-4-2 mean 2 April or 4 February. This is the irritation I experience every time. Tony (talk) 02:53, 18 August 2012 (UTC)�

To the contrary, I believe most readers will immediately recognize it as a date and realize that it goes from the most significant figure to the least. We are all free to assert our opinion. — Carl (CBM · talk) 03:32, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The point being that it is not opinion to realise that "1 March 2012" or "March 1, 2012" cannot be misinterpreted, however "2012-03-01" might be misinterpreted—so why take the risk (with the set you don't include in "most readers")? GFHandel ♬  04:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Strong national ties to other countries

The current text is: "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the United States, this is month before day; for most others, it is day before month. Articles related to Canada may use either format consistently." This matches MOS:TIES. However, while countries not using English do not officialy prefer one variety of English, they do have a preferred date format. I think articles with strong ties to any country should use the "endian-ness" of the country, while using the punctuation used in English. The potential for misunderstanding is removed as this MOS does not allow using just the month's number, but I still think it ought to be considered. 88.88.163.29 (talk) 17:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

No. Presumably readers fluent in the language of the country to which the topic of the article is strongly tied will be reading an article in that language, either on one of the non-English Wikipedias, or some other publication. The English Wikipedia concerns itself with English readers. When the topic of the article is tied to some non-English speaking country, we have no basis for guessing which English date format will be most comfortable for readers, and thus no basis for preferring one format over another. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:11, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. Your assumption is somewhat incorrect, as English Wikipedia often has better articles even in these cases, as it attracts more editors. Most of Europe can probably understand English well enough to use this site as readers, see English language#English as a global language. I am aware it is not a policy, but Wikipedia is primarily for the readers. There is a reason I brought this up, I am normally a reader and English is not an official language in my country, but I have edited a bit during the Olympics. Regarding which format to use it seems, based on the link given in my first post, that this would generally not be the American format as the US and Belize are the only countries who use that format exclusively. Anyway, it is not particularly important; it would be if it was allowed to use the the number of the month, as that would in some cases be misleading. 88.88.163.29 (talk) 20:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to used the same standard we use for units of measurement in articles about non-English-speaking countries. That is, the units actually used. Kilometres in France, for example. [3] Measuring speeds on German autobahns in miles per hour jars as much as using American date formats in Russia. --Pete (talk) 04:40, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately it's not the same standard at all. We normally supply conversions for the benefit of the reader not accustomed to a given set of units, such as giving a speed on a German autobahn as "160 kilometres per hour (99 mph)", but there's no way we're going to be writing "19 August 2012 (August 19, 2012)" because either date format is perfectly well understood by everyone. --RexxS (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Do you think we need conversions for dates, when we are talking about which format to use for a strong national tie? I can't follow your thoughts here about conversions. --Pete (talk) 19:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you mean that articles about Japan should use “2012 August 24”? — A. di M.  16:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Strange

I just noticed that the navigational aids (i.e. the sidebar and the Project page, talk, edit etc. links) appear with a different font on this project page than on any other pages I have seen on Wikipedia. Is this a fixable error? 88.88.163.29 (talk) 21:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Military dates

Is there an encyclopedic reason for the need to use a modified military date format for United States military articles? The articles are written for the general reader and should not be using terminology and in this case a date format that is not used by the general reader. The military uses that format , or at least a variance of it, and has its won reasons for doing so. There is no encyclopedic reason for doing so on Wikipedia. --JOJ ^Hutton 12:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

But the US military does use a date format that is used by (arguably) the majority of general readers: dmy. The problem is that we actually have no "general reader", and the conventions we use to decide on date format actually ignore the reader's normal usage, and instead focus on links between the subject and a particular format. It seems to me that the use of dmy in US military articles complies with that convention as it stands. --RexxS (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

And what, pray tell, are the majority of readers you are referring to? --JOJ ^Hutton 15:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

The 75% of readers of the English Wikipedia who do not geolocate to the USA. What did you think I was referring to? --RexxS (talk) 19:06, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Wow, 75%, thats a high number. Any source for that number, because I once heard that 52% of all statistics are made up.--JOJ ^Hutton 19:09, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

So basically there is no source for that number so we have to assume that 75% is incorrect.--JOJ ^Hutton 14:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

No, you assume good faith of your fellow editors. Or you could just look it up at http://stats.wikimedia.org/ the same as everybody else does. It's a well-known statistic that page views from the USA make up around 25% of the global total. --RexxS (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Well I'm sorry to tell you, but I'm about to burst your bubble, as you just fell victim to one of the most classic blunders. The most famous is, never get into a land war in Asia, thank you Wallace Shawn, but slightly less well know is that you don't confuse Wikimedia stats with English Wikipedia stats. I assume you are referring to this chart when you reference that only 25% of all global traffic originates from the United States? Unfortunately for your argument, that chart refers to "ALL" Wikimedia sites, and not just the English Wikipedia. It includes traffic from the German Wikipedia, French Wikipedia, Spanish Wikipedia, Russian Wikipedia, Japanese Wikipedia, and for a list of all Wikipedias see List of Wikipedias. We are using the English Wikipedia, and on the English Wikipedia the stats are quite different. 46.7% of all global traffic originates in the United States. Taking into consideration only for the English speaking countries, the United States accounts the most traffic. I hope that I have educated you on the proper way to use statistics and hopefully you will no longer go around using faulty and incomplete data.--JOJ ^Hutton 21:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Nicer, please (and I hope I don't have to get into who's worse, and how much worse). Art LaPella (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Surely if the subject determines the format, then for articles with strong national ties we should use the date format of that nation? --Pete (talk) 19:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes subject with strong national ties. in this case the date format (MDY) used in the United States for US military articles. And that should be the case across the board.--JOJ ^Hutton 14:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• Agree with RexxS. In gnoming, I've always left US miltary date formats as they are (and they're almost always article-consistent). I learned the hard way that there's objection from ex-military editors if you change from dmy. Naval articles seem to be more strongly oriented towards dmy. Some US military articles use mdy. I'm happy to let it be as editors originally chose for each article. I'm unaware of edit-wars or disputes on talk pages about the format for particular articles. Tony (talk) 00:56, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

  I think you may have hit on something. "Ex-military" editors. We shouldn't write the articles for the use of military and ex military editors. We write for the general reader. The military uses DMY dates internally, but if you take a quick look at each services official website, you'll find that the military agrees with me. As well as other encyclopedias. Will make an official request to strike the requirement tomorrow. Too long have the Military and Ex-military types controlled content decisions. And so that no one will think that I'm biased in anyway. I'm a former Marine (1992-1996).--JOJ ^Hutton 01:26, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

  Not all ex-military like dmy! However it is also true that shooting on site mdy dates is common in military articles, even if that was how the date first appeared. Vegaswikian (talk) 04:44, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

C'mon, everybody understands both formats (so long as the month is spelled out): neither is that uncommon on either side of the Atlantic. It's nice to have some rule to decide which to use, but it's not something to fight that passionately about. — A. di M.  19:35, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to strike out the requirement that American military articles use military dates

It should be a fact that Wikipedia articles are and should be written for the general reader in mind. We haven't all been in the United States military, although I was a Marine. so I ask that we strike out the part of this MOS guideline that says military date format (DMY) be used on American military articles. There is no logical reason for it, since the articles are not written for the military reader, but for the general audience and shouldn't require such technical details. It has been a long time argument ,(falsely I might add), that since the military uses the (DMY) format, Wikipedia must do so also. I will present evidence that shows that although internal military documents use (DMY), the military is not a slave to the format and understands the issue of "general reader" I will also show that no other American "non-military" encyclopedia uses (DMY) because they too understand the concept of the general reader.

Evidence:

1. First and foremost, these articles are about the "American" military. In the United States, the general date format is (MDY). And since the articles are not technical manuals or text books as one previous editor explained he envisioned he was doing, there is no reason to use such technical formatting for the dates, but should use the regular normal date format that the general reader from that country would use.
2. Next, there is no encyclopedic reason to use two separate date formats for US articles. Other encyclopedias don't do this. The only online encyclopedia that I could find, that wasn't a wiki, is the encyclopedia Britannica entries for Douglas-MacArthur and for The United States Marine Corps. Both of these articles currently use (DMY) on Wikipedia. Print encyclopedias such as the Encyclopedia Americana and The United States Encyclopedia of History both use (MDY) as well. Civilian text books, at least the ones I own, also use (MDY) as well.
3. Although it is easy to prove that the military uses the (DMY) date format internally, they have their own reasons for doing so. But the military does understand that externally, they do not need to write their internal date formats, but write the dates for the general reader to understand. Examples (notice the ".mil", these are official government military websites): Marines, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Department of Defense, 11th MEU, Army history page, This official Army article, This official Navy article, This official Marine Memo, 2nd Medical Battalion, Marine Corp Magazine, This official Air Force article, and Many Many More.
4. Since these articles are about US military subjects, the bulk of the traffic will undoubtedly be within the United States. The United States already accounts for 46.7% of all traffic on the English Wikipedia. One can only imagine the the stats are higher for US specific articles, just as the stats would be higher for UK specific articles within the UK. So since the bulk of the article traffic will come from within the US, its likely that most of the readers would enjoy seeing a familiar date format instead of an unfamiliar one.
5. The only justification given for writing these dates this way is the part of WP:STRONGNAT that says so. To me it smacks of WP:POINT, as there is no justification for writing these articles like they are internal military articles intended for a military audience. They are not internal, but are in fact written for the genaral reader and not for US servicemen and women. WP:ENGVAR discusses differences in English variations and date formats should be no different. Another argument to keeping the (DMY) dates is that some articles have attained FA status with these dates. But that assertion is based on this MOS, which is incorrect, that is why I am proposing changing it.

In conclusion these articles about American military subjects should use the normal date format (MDY) used in the United States because there is no encyclopedic reason to require these articles to do so. Other encyclopedias don't do this. The bulk of the traffic on these articles will come from within the United States. These articles are written for the general audience and are not intended to be internal military articles, and as such should not be bound by the internal military date format. Many military websites, including every single service branch, the DOD, internal military articles, and several military units, use the (MDY) date format on their official websites and pages. That is because even the military recognizes the difference between internal use and general use. The single sentence in this MOS has been the only justification for using this internal date format in Wikipedia articles. I suggest we just get rid of that sentence and have all articles with strong US national ties, retain the same date format throughout.--JOJ ^Hutton 01:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

How was the original decision made, do you know? Surely there must have been some discussion - heated discussion, going by the history of similar matters of format here - and the decision would not have been made lightly or without consensus. It might be easier to look at the original arguments and conclusions than to battle over the same contested ground again. Wikipedia has enough bullets whistling around without calling for more! --Pete (talk) 23:35, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I've never seen how this came about. I'm sure there are some discussions, but can't find any original one.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:39, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Was there a discussion and can we have a pointer. If there was no broad discussion, I know how I would comment. But I'll hold back allowing old information to be provided to this discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I think there are after the fact discussions, but nothing I can find that began it all. Most of the arguments for using the (DMY) is that the military uses it. Well the links I provided confirms that they don't do so externally.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:52, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment. The dmy format is not necessarily limited to members of the US armed services; it might also be predominant in English-language military scholarship, or perhaps scholarship of the US military. I don't know, but it would be something to look into. Also, Jojhutton's point about Encyclopedia Britannica and other general-interest American publications using the mdy format for articles about the US military is not applicable to Wikipedia, because most publications have only one date style for all articles, and don't make a separate decision about US military-related articles. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

I think thats the point. Why does Wikipedia make a decision to use a separate date format for US military articles when others do not? We don't need to use two formats if other publications don't either.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:41, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment. So long as the month is spelled out, & there's no ambiguity what date 7/12/41 refers to, I'm fine with either. (I default to day first.) That said, I also don't think it would be worth changing it from whatever it is, provided it's consistent across the page. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:40, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

• First, dmy is pretty common in military literature. Second, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to do this. There's a lot of American military articles. Third, I find it silly that you say something like "write the dates for the general reader to understand", because I'm relatively certain that American readers can understand dmy dates. I could be wrong, though. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:42, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Can they understand the dates? Yes. Is it proper American English? No. Vegaswikian (talk) 23:55, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
• The DMY format is readable yes, and understood, but awkward to look at for the general American reader. But Wikipedia guidelines state that we should use the date more common date format in the country the article is about. That date format is (MDY). Why not make all articles use one variance of English spelling as well? We all understand what "colour" means. It's because we use the most common spelling per WP:ENGVAR, just as we should use the most common date per WP:STRONGNAT.--JOJ ^Hutton 23:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
• We should always include the month as a word so as to ensure that no-one is confused. 1/9/1939 is plain useless for an international project. Even if we were consistent in terms of dmy or mdy style, the reader can never be entirely sure. Formerip (talk) 00:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Thanks for pointing me to this discussion. I don't think it's a terribly important issue; people understand it both ways. I think Jojhutton has done a good job of supplying links, and I don't see anything wrong with his point or his links: the American military uses and has always used MDY in websites and publications, except for internal and technical materials. However, many people who want to write military articles feel more comfortable with DMY; it feels more authentic to them. I think we do best when we make an effort to let everyone "follow their Muse", even if we don't quite get it, and the Muse of military history seems to be whispering "DMY" into people's ears. I never impose my own date preferences, but if people are asking my preference as a copyeditor, I think it's easier to find support in style guides and in practice for MDY in AmEng. - Dank (push to talk) 00:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose. I have looked through the archives of discussion on this subject. Since the note about US military articles first appeared in 2009, there has been broad, sustained consensus on this issue. DMY is the format the community uses, is the preferred usage by those editors who know the subject best, and is in line with other format choices here. By that last, I mean that we use subject-appropriate units of measurement, subject-appropriate spelling, subject-appropriate terminology. We don't use uniform formats for the "average reader"; we tailor our choices to suit the subject. I would have to be very strongly persuaded to support overturning this successful philosophy, especially if it comes down to what individual editors prefer without regard to the wider community. --Pete (talk) 01:21, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually Wikipedia is written for the average reader and not the specialist. Pardon me for saying so, but it sounds like a case of "I don't like it". And perhaps a bit of ownership, as these aren't written for the military writers and readers, but for the rest of us. I see no reason to not adhere to standard practices or WP:ENGVAR and WP:STRONGNAT.--JOJ ^Hutton 02:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support. Is there really broad sustained consensus on WP military projects? Or is it just that most editors go along with the status quo? Maybe there have been votes on the issue in the past, I'm not familiar with whether there has been or not. In any case: History textbooks do not use U.S. military dates. They write the month out in full. And as FormerIP points out above, it is useless to have U.S. format as the only acceptable standard on an international project. For example, if an article is about an Allied operation in WWII, how do you decide whether to use the U.S. M/D/Y format, or the British/Canadian/ANZAC D/M/Y format? Count the operation's soldiers by nationality, and the majority gets their date format? Hmm. It is too much like military jargon, and too specific to one nationality (large though that nation may be), global military history is far more extensive than the U.S.A. as a sole participant.OttawaAC (talk) 01:35, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

One additional comment... there has an odd parallel with the metric versus imperial system dilemma. Or the debate over American English versus British English, Canadian English, and so on. The language debate has come down in favour of editors using whichever English they are comfortable using. I think that's fine, but I wonder if that's a solution that would work here? I think not, unfortunately; if "American" military articles restrict themselves to U.S. military dates, what about the Vietnam War? North Vietnam won, so would that be an "American" article with American date format? Not trying to be pedantic. Well, I suppose I am. But I think there's a bit of Ameri-centrism up for consideration here. Yes I just made up that word.OttawaAC (talk) 01:44, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

"everyone going with the status quo" = "consensus through normal editing". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - Although I am not strongly opposed to this idea the scale of redefining all the dates would be epic and frankly not really worth the effort. This date standard has been in practice for a long time and has been thoroughly discussed many times in multiple venues. In every lengthy discussion the result was to keep it. Kumioko (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Comment -- As a coordinator on the MilHist project, I've never seen dmy enforced in US military articles, it's simply been a style option and if the primary editor chooses it, that decision is generally respected. If they choose mdy, in US military articles, that too is respected. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:03, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact the you have not seen it enforced is different then the fact that some editors have enforced it. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:21, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - The current system is not broken. There is no need to fix it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

  Actually the current system IS broken. The majority of readers on these articles should be able to see familiar date formatting and nor something that downs't look right.--JOJ ^Hutton 02:07, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

  I presume that should be "The majority of readers in the United States". MilborneOne (talk) 21:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, not broken, no need to change. Well, really, Yawn. Someone who cares about date presentation can select it in their preferences, including the ISO time/date presentation (which is none of the suggestions here!) I personally write DDMonYYYY or DayDDMonYYYY, unless there is some requirement otherwise; I'm not offended by other orderings as long as they are understandable. 2/3/YY and YY/3/2 are NOT understandable without a label. Mom's USNavy, Dad's USArmy, I'm a Marine. Labels are always useful, that's what spelling out the month name does. It removes confusion. Other than that, it's taste, here, and we can argue that until the disk fills up. htom (talk) 03:30, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

OtterSmith seems to have missed the change; we no longer do autoformatting of dates because it was a bad idea from day 1. The preferences setting will have little or no effect within articles (but if I recall correctly, it will affect timestamps in some logs). Jc3s5h (talk) 03:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

So that's why it's so ineffective! Another eternal squabble enabled. htom (talk) 04:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support Even if the article is on a military subject, it should still be written in an encyclopedic style. "Write for your audience" covers that. As for how the rule got there in the first place, Wikipedia has a lot of old rules that were put in place for mistaken reasons. For example, WP:LQ started out as a compromise between British and American English based on the belief that British English requires single quotation marks in all cases (which is not true). Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:43, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

"A lot of old rules" is why the project works. The rules and procedures that survive are there because they work and help us produce one of the wonders of the Internet, made up of the diverse efforts of a diverse group of people. This Manual of Style works through editors and topics and subjects, not some non-existent "ideal user". We are never going to find such a mythical beast in any case - we write for everyone. --Pete (talk) 11:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Not really all that old of a rule. WP:STRONGNAT was working just fine until a few years ago when, in my opinion, someone comes along and tries to push their POV using faulty logic and arguments. A few people don't "oppose" so it gets added without complaints at that time. See it at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive 112#US military articles. After that, its been used to change a series of articles using only this single sentence in the MOS. Just because it hasn't been seriously challenged up to this point does not mean that the sentence should continue to be there. And your "ideal user" is an attack on my wording of "general reader". It's election season in the US and its easy to spot that falacle "spin" of misrepresentation.--JOJ ^Hutton 13:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

My comment on "old rules" was meant in response to the question up top about how this rule got here in the first place. What I'm saying is that we shouldn't assume that the founderpedians must have had a very good reason to put this rule in place. Sometimes they didn't. Sometimes these rules were arbitrary or based on information that later turned out to be false. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Weak oppose. If I was starting from scratch, I'd probably have recommended that all US-related articles used a single US style, military or not. There's a tradition, however, of doing it a different way, and its not "broken", at least in the sense of being confusing to the typical reader (I can understand US article dates fine, and I'm sure that the typical US reader can manage fine with UK article dates; I doubt that a US military article using the D-M-Y format causes readers any difficulty either). I'd fall into the "not broken, no need to change" camp for that reason. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose I don't see a real need for this change. Intothatdarkness 15:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose There seems to be some unusual logic in this proposal - we are told that we must write for the "audience" of the article, who it is assumed are American and require MDY date formats, because the majority of en:wikipedia readers are American - taking this logic to its conclusion would discard engvar and force every editor to use US styles.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:52, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The audience is encyclopedia readers. So we should write in a general encyclopedic style rather than in any sort of specialized style. As for ENGVAR, British and American English have both been shown to be real, recognized varieties of English. Military English has not. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:09, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh, boy! You was never in the military, I'm guessing, with an attitude like that! The language of military folk is quite distinct, with jargon, phrasing, and cadences all its own. I remember as a young weapons instructor being advised by a veteran warrant officer exactly what phrases to use in my lesson, none of my long university words, thank'ee! And my mate Corporal Duff, an accomplished wordsmith and teacher, sought assistance from another veteran when given the task of writing a report on something or other. With the "Official Writing" pamphlet in one hand and a sheaf of printed forms in the other, he plaintively enquired of Lieutenant Moreton, "Please Sir, how do I write bullshit?". I can send you a few field manuals if you want examples. I have one on field-rigging a bulldozer for airdrop which will balkanize your brain in moments. --Pete (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose Don't agree that this is a problem that needs fixing. Strong ties would lead one to believe we should use what the subject would use. Since the military uses what is currently status quo then that is probably where it should stay. -DJSasso (talk) 17:58, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose nothing wrong with the current system, I would like to think that most American readers could read dates backwords if the month is spelled out, the rest of the world doesnt have an issue. MilborneOne (talk) 21:39, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, the way it is now, that the consensus of active editors determines date formats works well, and an MOS regarding this is not necessary either way IMHO.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:32, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, having taken the time to add hundreds, if not thousands, of citations from a wide, wide range of sources; it is my opinion that the majority of material in this field uses the D-M-Y layout. Speaking personally, constantly translating the dates in sources, including official USM material, from one style into another would be only a needless obsticle to developing content. From my perspective, I see more negatives than benifits from the overturning of an established precident. Other people may disagree, but my opinion on the matter is mine to have. Kyteto (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - The system works, it's an unnecessary change in precedence. --Nouniquenames (talk) 06:35, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Agree it's too much work for too little result. Disagree that anyone does not understand that (e.g.) 15 January 1940 is the same day as January 15, 1940. Disagree with suggestion above that months always be spelled out unless an exception is made for tables where full month names expand cells excessively. I don't know about the Navy, but based on Adjutant General organizational letters, prior to mid 1942 the Army did not use dmy, however.--Lineagegeek (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Patrick Name (b. 1969), an American musician

In a list with people named Patrick, may I just put

Patrick Name (b. 1969), an American musician,

or can't the word born be here replaced with b.

Patrick Monahan (born 1969), an American musician.

Because for the abbreviation, there is no b. in this wiki, but a. or c. See Patrick (given name), --Schwab7000 (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

The exhibits are confusing because they are not lists. "(born " is appropriate in the lead sentence of a biography such as this exhibit. If we do have a list of people (full names) whose first name is Patrick, then neither "born" nor "b." may be necessary after the first instance or first two instances establish a pattern.

Compare "illustrated by Charles Keeping" for the first instance of a named illustrator in a list of some author's works, followed by "illus. by Keeping" or "ill. Victor Ambrus" or whatever in subsequent listings. In my opinion, abbreviate in a way that is clear and consistent within the article. Eg, if the list of author's works is very long with only a few illustrators, don't abbreviate. If every line is the listing for another person with firstname Patrick then extreme abbreviation will be appreciated. --P64 (talk) 18:29, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Aside: If we have a template {{circa}}, for c., I wonder why we can't have one for b.? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:14, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Your idea, so you get to make the template. Roger (talk) 09:33, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

• Here, this is just what I wanted to know:

b. (also b British English)

• the written abbreviation of

born
// with an example: // Andrew Lanham, b. 1885 // at: http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/b- /just that simple.--Schwab7000 (talk) 11:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

a template {{born}} for {{born}}, I would use it. Thanks Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing) --Schwab7000 (talk) 11:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Year ranges in infobox

I brought this up on a couple of talk pages for Infobox templates, and the only reply was to take it here: Can we have some clarification on the standard procedure or consensus on the use of parenthetical year ranges in infoboxes? When should they be used, and when shouldn't they be? (I know they should for spouse). Is (0000–) or (0000—) ever acceptable? Is < small > acceptable or not? --Musdan77 (talk) 17:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

You are not giving us any context. What do the years mean? Why are you thinking of parentheses? One think I can tell you is acceptable notation for the year 0 is 1 BC or 1 BCE. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:23, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's one example of its use in a person infobox. And here's an example of its use in a television infobox. --Musdan77 (talk) 22:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I've never been a fan of the small texts in infoboxes. Tony (talk) 23:53, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Time and "now" perspective

Summary: recommend that articles should be written using "timeless" text instead of simply listing some rules without explanation.

It is recommended, both here and in WP:RELTIME, that statements that date quickly should be avoided, except on pages that are regularly updated, like current events pages, with words to avoid such as recently, lately, currently, presently, to date, 15 years ago, formerly, in the past, but no reason is given. These are laid down as rules, with no reason given. My understanding is that articles should be written in a timeless way as far as possible, without any "now" perspective, so that when read at any time they are both understandable ("last year" may have been written several years ago, or yesterday) and not ridiculous, although not too misleading to people who have a vague idea about the topic ("computer processors with dual cores are under development"). This helps (1) with articles that go out of date and are not updated (very common with the less popular articles; but, while I have changed things like "Obama is the current US president; he was elected in 2008" in a very active article to "Obama became US president in 2008", even without my change the "current" is certain to be updated by someone at the end of 2012 or 2016). It also helps (2) with "frozen" text such as printouts and copies of articles. This is not, in my opinion, just for things that date quickly as recommended by the current guideline (what does "quickly" mean? next week? next year? next decade?), but totally timeless wording is always to be preferred, and is usually possible without difficulty, e.g., "J Smith is the principal" or "J Smith is the current principal" ==> "As of 2012 J Smith was the principal" (with the "As of" template if the editor knows it).

If my understanding is correct (please tell me if it isn't), it should be mentioned in guidelines; it is easier and clearer to "write articles in a timeless way so that they make sense whenever read (for example, avoid words such as recently" than to avoid a group of listed forbidden words. By the way, I don't see "formerly" or "in the past" as particularly objectionable as they remain valid in the future; why are they frowned upon?

I would suggest that the text of both guidelines be modified in this way.I'll add a link to this discussion in WP:RELTIME. Pol098 (talk) 12:32, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

How do we define a decade?

Specifically, should we write assuming 1970 (or 1550 or 10) is the last year of the 1960s (or 1540s or Decade One) or the first year of the 1970s (or 1550s or Decade Two)? I'm thinking mainly for use in lists such as List of Atlantic hurricane seasons or List of 20th-century earthquakes, which currently each use a different system. Should we define a site-wide standard and, if so, which system should be used? InedibleHulk (talk) 06:28, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, Last Year Since our calendar starts at 1 (not 0) and decades last ten years (not sometimes nine). InedibleHulk (talk) 06:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

No. Dictionary.com says "1970s ... the decade from 1970 to 1979". WP:CENTURY says: "Forms such as the 1700s are normally best avoided since it may be unclear whether a 10- or 100-year period is meant (i.e. 1700–1709 or 1700–1799)", not 1701-1710. I would expect 1970 to be in the 1970s because the name "1970s" means you have to say "nineteen seventy" to name any of the ten years. Although the absence of a year 0 is relevant when defining the 20th century, I don't see why it is relevant to the 1970s because we don't call it the 198th decade. "Decade Two" would be different, except I couldn't find anyone who uses that phrase to mean what you're talking about. Art LaPella (talk) 08:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't even use that phrase, but had no idea what else to call it. I've never had to refer to it before. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Nobody knows and probably, no one will ever know. The era described in our "Anno Domini" article and used, at least for purposes of international communication, throughout the world, was created by Dionysius Exiguus in 525, and considered his numbering to begin with the incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth. But Romans had methods of inclusive counting that would seem strange to modern English-speaking peoples, and various other problems are explained on pages 778–9 of The Oxford Companion to the Year which is more fully cited in the "Anno Domini" article. Dionysius might have considered the incarnation to have occurred in 2 BC, 1 BC, or AD 1. So there is little hope of clarifying the matter from the original source, who has been dead for 1.5 millennia. In my opinion there is no international organization with enough clout to decide the matter and make their decision stick. So don't rely on decade names if a year or two either way really matters. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree entirely with the view that whatever may be case with expressions such as "the 17th century", the expression "the 1770s" means 1770 to 1779 inclusive, not 1771 to 1780 inclusive. (The purist view on centuries and millenia seems to be a minority one now; the start of the second millennium was celebrated at the start of 2000, not 2001. But this is not relevant to expressions like "the 1770s".) Peter coxhead (talk) 12:36, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Addendum If someone wrote "the 177th decade" that would be another matter. But no-one ever does! Peter coxhead (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

That would be the 178th decade, strictly speaking. But yeah, your point remains. I consider the seventies (plural) to be the years beginning in "nineteen-seventy-", not the one year that is entirely "nineteen-seventy". I see years ending in zero like ceilings in a building, also the floor of the next "storey". Just my personal opinion, not an argument. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:59, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

As per Art LaPella and Peter coxhead, that's 1970–1979. Anyway, in cases when one-year differences are that important, why would you use decades rather than exact years in the first place? — A. di M.  16:12, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking of lists like the hurricane and earthquake ones linked above, with sections divided into decades. Of course, if we're trying to say 1970, "1970" works best. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I have been watching MOSNUM since 2007 (the kibibyte vs. kilobyte war). I have noticed that some contributors feel that precision and accuracy is the overriding goal of Wikipedia. Readability and understanding are secondary issues. In one Wikipedia article, I described events that happened in the "1970s". Most of the events happened from 1971 to 1977 but one happened in 1969. I fear the day that some purest corrects my "inexact" description with some convoluted date range. -- SWTPC6800 (talk) 18:20, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

• Disagree - This falls along the same lines as WP:COMMONNAME. In short, people expect "nineteen seventy" to be part of the "seventies" since it has the word "seven" in it. We're not saying that mathematically 1970-1979 refers to the seventh decade (when in fact 1971-1980 would be the 8th decade of the 20th century), we're simply saying that 1970-1979 are all dates that have a "7" in them, which you can't argue about. This is what readers expect, so this is how it should be written. Deviating in some attempt to be mathematically correct will just confuse people. —JmaJeremy✆✎ 03:42, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

It's sometimes necessary to confuse people to correct well-established mistakes, as those who went to bed on October 4, 1582 and woke up on the 15th eventually realized. But since I can't play the infallibilty card (damn Wikirules), I'll admit you have a point. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:43, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Well in the simplest terms, a decade is really a set of 10 consecutive years. The lack of precision and the issue of decades and centuries not playing well together is why I think we should minimize their use. I think in articles is OK and it should be the main place where it is allowed. I don't see a need to use it at all in categories. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

When it comes to natural languages, “well-established mistakes” (when they are really well-established, even in copy-edited prose in high registers, and the purportedly correct usage isn't well-established) are not mistakes at all. It's not like there's a stone tablet in the sky that says that the 1970s means ‘the 198th decade AD’, so what it means is what native English speakers use it to mean, which is, the overwhelming majority of the time, ‘the years from 1970 to 1979’. — A. di M.  11:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

So we've got Yes, No, Nobody knows and Disagree (along with some less bold opinions). So, ladies and gentleman, this bout has been declared (unilaterally and without papal authority) a No Contest. Therefore, back to business as usual, if we have no objections. Thanks for your input! InedibleHulk (talk) 07:12, 27 August 2012 (UTC)