Wikipedia talk:Reference desk

Skip to the bottom

[edit]

To ask a question, use the relevant section of the Reference desk

This page is for discussion of the Reference desk in general.
Please don't post comments here that don't relate to the Reference desk. Other material may be moved.
The guidelines for the Reference desk are at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines.
For help using Wikipedia, please see Wikipedia:Help desk.

Maths Desk

I would like you to note that there are not enough questions on the maths desk. Can you remedy this? 92.0.110.196 (talk) 17:34, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

How many are enough, and why?

—Wavelength (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

What would you have us do? Point guns at the heads of random strangers and threaten to kill them unless they go online and ask a question on the Wikipedia Mathematics Reference Desk? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 19:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Change it to Math and Sports Statistics? μηδείς (talk) 19:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Math and Homework? hydnjo (talk) 14:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

Math and Free Porn. --Jayron32 20:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

A Google search for math porn yields over 11 million hits. Ah, Rule 34... Matt Deres (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Only 1,550,000 for a verbatim search. μηδείς (talk) 20:06, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Still about 1,449,999 too many if you ask me. But whatever fills your sails... --Jayron32 20:12, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

So, you think 100,001 is just about right, Jayron?

Maybe "How much is 1,550,000−1,449,999= ?" is a good math desk question.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 16:40, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I have the definitive suggestion. Mathematics and who blindly supports Israel? Or can we at least start a separate Palestine, The Jews, and who's eviller? desk? μηδείς (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

You might consider merging math and computing - after all, literally, to compute is to sum numbers. Wnt (talk) 05:18, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

To compute is more nuanced than just summation, at least in today's lexicon. Very little on the computing desk is math (or summation) related. I'll stick with Math & Homework. A place where OPs needn't disguise their questions and we can supplement their effort to learn or else chase the rascals back for an earnest attempt on their own. hydnjo (talk) 03:34, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I don't seriously suggest they're the same, but there should be some people who know both - they seem closer than, say, law and literature. Wnt (talk) 03:53, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I just need you to advertise it a bit better and try to gain the trust of other people 92.0.110.196 (talk) 16:36, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Why? And again, how many are enough? --Onorem♠Dil 16:42, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

A minimum of 1 question per day, and please use adverts for it 92.0.110.196 (talk) 17:47, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Advertise where? And how do we force people to ask at least a question a day? --Onorem♠Dil 18:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Why do you need us to do this? As long as any questions you might ask get answered, why does it bother you if there are not as many other people asking questions as you might expect or like? Why do you care? -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I am just concerned that the maths desk may be forgotten and may have to close down due to lack of demand 92.0.110.196 (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Advertise it on the home page 92.0.110.196 (talk) 18:10, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Why would it have to close down? You make no sense. If people have math questions, the desk is here. If they don't, the desk is still here. --Onorem♠Dil 04:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

If no one asks questions, will our pay get cut? -- Scray (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

If there are fewer than 1 questions a day, your pay will be reduced by 46% and/or your firstborn. There is a deductible if you go with firstborn. --Onorem♠Dil 04:57, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedians do not get paid. I believe that saving server space is essential. Therefore, any unused stuffs should be deleted. The maths desk is heavily underused, so maybe it is time to let it go. Also note that an advert for the maths desk can be inserted onto the front page and other places. 92.0.110.196 (talk) 16:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Not our concern, and not a reason to 'close down' the page. Also no to front page advert. There is nothing special about this page to warrant that. --Onorem♠Dil 17:05, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

A page that is not used does not consume progressively mere space simply by sitting there, and deleting a page does not save space (as you probably know, page-histories are still available and even deleted pages can be undeleted). DMacks (talk) 19:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Possibly merge with computing or science? 92.0.110.196 (talk) 19:09, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Now for a serious response: I feel the {{dyoh}} template is a bit unfriendly. It should emphasize that we are glad to help with homework, provided they show us their work so far. Also, I've noticed that people with basic math questions (including homework) are sometimes mistreated at the Math Desk, by people who find such simple math beneath them. StuRat (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Should the maths desk and other desks merge into one super desk? 92.0.110.196 (talk) 20:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

People think the math desk is under-used? As for me, I have been stunned that there are so many math questions being asked. I did not think so many people would be interested in math issues to the extent that they occasionally needed the help of a reference desk.How is it there are that many math people with interesting questions? (Apologies to the OP for using the American-style "math" instead of "maths" but it is what I say.)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 23:20, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Is it possible for all the desks to become one super desk? Should the maths desk be simplified a bit? I don't understand half of the questions? 92.0.110.196 (talk) 10:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

(e/c)I'm going to assume good faith and suppose that you are merely extremely confused. Your posts in this thread give the impression that you think the questions on the desks are somehow generated by Wikipedia for your education. That's completely false. The questions you see on the desks are just whatever folks like you and me decide to ask; there's no mechanism for anyone to simplify the questions for you, nor is there any need. If you don't understand the question because it's something you're not knowledgeable in, just ignore it - or, better yet, check out the replies and see if you can improve your knowledge. As for the "super desk", that's what we had here originally, but it was broken down into separate, smaller, desks to promote ease of reading and quicker load times. There is no need - at all - to reconstitute the old style single desk. If you want to see what that might look like, however, you can check this page out. Matt Deres (talk) 14:17, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Background information: Before July 20th, 2006, computer science questions were supposed to be asked on the maths desk, see here. Computing was split off because computing questions tended to be asked all over the place. Discussion here. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 14:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

So, could the maths desk be advertised on the main page of this site. If not, then why not? Where else could an advert be posted? 92.0.110.196 (talk) 17:43, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

It's not going to be advertised anywhere. Please drop it. Matt Deres (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Even to you non-pilgrims

For our non-Pilgrim friends

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. μηδείς (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

You missed by a month, but I appreciate the sentiment. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. Mingmingla (talk) 23:13, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

My snotty comment was in jest, BTW. I really do appreciate the sentiment. Mingmingla (talk) 01:18, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Canada has to hold their T-day a month earlier, because by now the entire country is, as usual, covered by glaciers, and the frenzy of curling season dominates the headlines. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Ever wonder why Canada is so clean? In Canada, sweeping is a sport. Mingmingla (talk) 01:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, happy belated. Hope you had pecan pie. μηδείς (talk) 01:46, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I wish! I love Pecan Pie, but my dad is allergic so we couldn't have it around. Mingmingla (talk) 02:05, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Well then, I certainly understand why you can't have your dad around any more, but calling him "it" is a bit rude. StuRat (talk) 23:13, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Bummer! It's too bad he couldn't have been allergic to rutabagas or something. No, it had to be pecan pie. :( So, what specific ingredient is he allergic to? The pecans themselves? Or something else? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:57, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Pecans, allegedly. Mingmingla (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Shame, that's one of those imperialistic american exports that should be forced on everyone. μηδείς (talk) 03:39, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Yum. Yes please. HiLo48 (talk) 03:43, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

And Happy Friday! ---Sluzzelin talk 01:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, hundreds of arrests, and an earthquake was triggered shortly after midnight in NJ (although that may have been related to the Stephen King novel), but fewer than a dozen dead at this point. μηδείς (talk) 16:21, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Stop being so fucking selfish, and start letting us Scots celebrate thanksgiving!92.0.110.196 (talk) 19:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

You are quite welcome to, so long as you are prepared for the earth-shattering chaos that starts the following midnight. We in America could do with a boxing day in exchange. μηδείς (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, "Black Friday" often does turn into a boxing day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:36, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

What is wrong with Scotland? Why can't we do Thanksgiving or St Patrick's day? We, as a country, just want to have fun 92.0.110.196 (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

What's stopping you? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:04, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Besides, you get all the fun two months from now. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Of the parents of all the people I went to high school with, The Daly's (Dalies?)--Mr and Mrs Daly--were the funnest ever, she from Glasgow and he from Edinburra. Watch So I Married an Axe-Murderer if you want to see a molecularly accurate impression of them. Such fun! μηδείς (talk) 23:16, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

To answer your query, surnames are pluralised by adding -s (or -es for names that already end in -s or -z or -ch or -sh or -x or -ć or -č or -ś or -š or -ż or -ž or anything pronounced like that; unless they're silent, in which case revert to -s), and no apostrophe. Never convert -y or -ey into -ies.

So, Daly --> Dalys; Casey --> Caseys; Bliss --> Blisses; Jones --> Joneses; Andrews --> Andrewses; Obama --> Obamas

Foveaux --> Foveauxs, because the -x is silent; if it were sounded, the plural would be Foveauxes

Slavic -ic names add -s if -ic is pronounced like -ik (Bernard Tomic's parents are the Tomics), but -es if -ic is pronounced like -ich (Radovan Karadžić's parents were the Karadžićes)

Chao --> Chaos; Kudo --> Kudos; Medei --> Medeis. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:38, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Plese STOP this discussion about surnames, it is off- topic!!!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.110.196 (talk • contribs) 10:47, 24 November 2012‎

Didn't you read the flag right above saying that this section has permission to stray from the topic? μηδείς (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

He didn't have to, as he's the one who posted it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:44, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

There would have to be a discernible topic before something could be declared off it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:18, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but if the plural of Daly is Dalys, wouldn't it then be pronounced "dales" according to the prior discussion? μηδείς (talk) 19:18, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Who's "playing the sophomore par excellence" now? No, those weird pronunciations apply only to the singulars, which extends to the singular components of the plurals of those singulars. Pepys = "peeps"; the plural Pepyses = "peepses". Simply adding the plural marker -s or -es does not change the core pronunciation of any English word I know of. (Except house ("hows") --> houses ("howzəz" etc.)-- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 20:06, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

According to the rules I was taught, words ending in "y" (but not "-ey") are pluralized "-ies". I am not satisfied either way, which tempts me to the barbarous "Daly's", or as you smartly suggest, the "Dalyses". I should see them at Christmas, so I'll ask. μηδείς (talk) 22:30, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Those rules don't apply to surnames. Have you ever seen a reference to "the Kennedies", or "the Kennedy's"? If you have, you'd have been reading the scribblings of an illiterate. I never said the plural of Daly is "Dalyses". If there were such a surname as Dalys, the plural would be Dalyses. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 00:04, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

This is your second warning, if you do not stop being off-topic, then I will have to alert the admins. 92.0.110.196 (talk) 17:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

What warning? That's the second time you have said we may stray from the topic. Or is that how Scots have fun? μηδείς (talk) 19:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

The original topic was Thanksgiving. It somehow changed to surnames without advance warning. 92.0.110.196 (talk) 20:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

By what method should advance warning be provided? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:40, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

I am afraid this is my fault. While I was originally typing "Happy Thanksgiving", I was mouthing "Now, how does one pluralize the surname Daly?" I do that alot. μηδείς (talk)

*(off-topicity, stupidity, pedantry, inanity, and general nuisance warning)*. Did you see Hanuman's footprints while you were there. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:29, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

This sure got weird in a hurry. Mingmingla (talk) 04:17, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Are you telling me that's the first time you've come acrost alot, Sluzzelein? Wait til you see some of my other favorites. μηδείς (talk) 04:51, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually that's how I used to often spell it along with "sofar", and occasionally still do. Then I once looked up both, and am now able to remember (most of the time) that they're spelled separately. Now, thanks to you, I learned something new, though I guess I'm sticking to "so far" instead of "sofar". (I did post a stupidity warning :-) ---Sluzzelin talk 23:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

***

Let me just say that I care about this alot. Ferkelparade π 02:02, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

***

Okay, this ([1]) certainly counts as the funniest thing I have seen this moth, and becuase of that, Ferkelparade, you will suffer a ref-desk best marquis. μηδείς (talk) 05:35, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Geography Section - Reference Desk

There should be a "Geography section" added to the Reference desk if it hasn't been. So then people could ask question related to geography --RossSLynch (talk) 14:30, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing stopping them from asking now. They might wonder where to put it, but that's why we have a "Miscellaneous" desk. What you could do, though, is to go through the archives and see how many geography questions have been asked in, say, the last 3 months, compared with the total number of questions asked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

There's nothing stopping people from asking such questions now at, say, the science or miscellaneous desks. But, although it is perhaps one of my favorite Jeopardy! categories, it generates very few questions. μηδείς (talk) 16:17, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

If you have a geography question, you can ask it at Humanities, Miscellaneous, or Science and I don't think anyone would raise a credible objection. The desk titles are not supposed to prevent you from asking good faith questions of any sort. --Jayron32 17:54, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Questions dealing with exploration or political boundaries, like where the most nations converge at a single point, would go to Humanities, while questions dealing with natural features, like the saltiest lake in the world, belong on the Science Desk. A question on use of a GPS device for navigation might go to the Computer Desk, while Q's involving the projection of maps go to the Math Desk. We could even get the Entertainment Desk involved, say for a Q on the game "Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego ?". StuRat (talk) 19:47, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

And here I was thinking Math and Geography as a solution to the previous problem. μηδείς (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Although there are some connections, Geography is not really Geometry. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:35, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

This has been discussed several times, in fact I'm surprised not to find it listed at Wikipedia:Reference desk/How to create a new reference desk. Maybe someone would like to add links to the various discussions.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:05, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, none of our current desks is swamped, and a dedicated geography desk wouldn't likely attract a huge amount of traffic. So it's fine to ask the question wherever it is deemed most appropriate. Again, there is still no problem in asking a good faith question on Geography in any desk the asker things will get them the best answer. --Jayron32 04:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Begging to differ in part: if none of the desks "is swamped" why am I always looking over my shoulder at the relentless (Poe- or broom-like) advance of the archive 'bot burying my carefully-considered, painfully-sourced and/or ponderously-composed answers, or the question I was just belatedly researching, or truncating slow but still active unfinished discussions, or else causing mysterious edit conflicts in mid-edit? ¶ As for categories, one could do worse than look at the ones at Sporcle. The Ref Desk is certainly not a quiz or trivia game, but if we and the questioners had no fondness at all for trivia, the desk would be a far less productive and informative resource, as well as too dull to attract interest. —— Shakescene (talk) 11:18, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

As Sturat says, there are different kinds of geography: political geography comes under humanities and physical geography comes under science.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

And it still doesn't matter, people should ask the question where they think it stands the best chance of getting them the answer they are looking for. --Jayron32 14:16, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

problem with searching archives

I used the search archive function at the top of the lang ref desk and looked for "yan tan" and "sheep counting" expecting to fin this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2012_November_19#Non_PIE_forms_of_sheep_counting but it came up neither time as a result. This seems to be a glitch. μηδείς (talk) 01:36, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Questions about problems with the search function are best directed at WP:VPT or WP:Help Desk depending on the type of question or if you have enough info, file a bug report via bugzilla, as the search function is wikipedia wide and baring a glitch in the set up of the search box, there's little we can do about it. In this particular case, I'm pretty sure the problem is simply that the index has not updated recently. Per Help:Searching#Delay in updating the search index, the search index should update about every day, and if it's more then 2 days since an update this is likely a problem worth reporting. The archive page has existed since 24 November so it's probably been more then 2 days. However a quick look finds Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Search list not updating it's already been reported albeit with no comments yet. (Although I'm a bit surprised the search engine doesn't find the main RD page if it was last updated 22 November.) Nil Einne (talk) 04:27, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Whoops I just remembered my comment above was a bit stupid, the search archive function only searches the archives by design so will not find stuff in the main RD. Nil Einne (talk) 12:29, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've searched it again, and it's comed up, so don't worry. There seems just to be some sorta lag period. I can deal with that (although others may be confused). μηδείς (talk) 05:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes per the discussion in VPT the index updated about 2 days or so. The lag shouldn't normally be so high at most about 2 days which means it should generally be found by the time the discussion has disappeared from the main RD page it was on. However it's not clear from the VPT discussion why the index suddenly took so long to update or if the problem was fixed or it just updated again for some reason. Nil Einne (talk) 12:39, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Ref Desk contributor User:Franamax has died

Just wanted to let everyone know. See Wikipedia:Deceased_Wikipedians#Franamax_.28Franamax.29. StuRat (talk) 22:11, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Vale, Franamax. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:33, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Dammit. Terrible news. We only corresponded a few times, but I'll certainly miss his cheerful contributions. Matt Deres (talk) 02:55, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

We should all be as well remembered. μηδείς (talk) 05:39, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yikes. That is indeed bad news, and by definition, it's now too late to express my appreciation for all the good work he did here. —Steve Summit (talk) 13:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

What a shame. My condolences to Franamax's family and friends. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Franamax was wished a long, natural life by Cuddlyable3 who considered Franamax to be a mean bully. Sic transit gloria Wikipedi. SkylonS (talk) 11:08, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

request for proof independent countries are independent because they've not voted in favor of palestinian observership

I've closed this again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#With_all_the_due_respect.2C_can_we_say_that_these_countries_are_not_completely_independent.3F. A "question" that begins with "with all due respect" and asks for proof of good faith from nations that have supported Israel is a request for opinion and debate and nothing else. Please don't reopen it without consensus. μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm okay with the closing, though I think the replies did a good job of answering the objective portion of the question. Matt Deres (talk) 04:21, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

The same question could be asked about countries that DID vote in favor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Either your reading comprehension is lacking, or mine is. Where is the question asking for a "proof of good faith"? It's asking a legitimate question about the independence of certain small UN member states, triggered by the fact that they voted a small minority position that was, however, advocated by a power that has major influence in these countries. And the answers are generally useful, too. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:06, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

That kind of US-bashing question needs to be countered with a question of why so many other nations fell in line behind that terrorist base like little green tin soldiers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:53, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Feel free to ask such a question yourself. Also feel free to not complain when it's immediately hatted. Getting into such rhetoric back here is just as inappropriate as doing it out there. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 18:45, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I already did raise that issue. And in any case, closing it was just fine. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:07, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Neptunekh94 removing questions

Can someone tell the user that it's not OK to replace answered questions with completely new questions, or to remove them at all? Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 05:09, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

This seems to be in good fiath, I have tried to explain and have restored both neptune's new question and the previous answer. μηδείς (talk) 05:23, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Jack, I said good fiath. I didn't mean to. But I typed it, and it stands. μηδείς (talk) 05:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

This thread isn't about me, and I can't imagine why you'd go off track to make it about me. Thanks for your restoration anyway. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:38, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Neptunekh__ users have been known to ask questions that indeed seem to emanate from the outer solar system. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Are they the planet colour guy? Some of the behaviour seems quite similar. Though, to be fair, there have been a few users with similar behaviour and I have no specific reason to think they're all the same person, so it well be coincidental. Matt Deres (talk) 16:32, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm just saying there have been multiple Neptunekh__ users. I don't know that any of them are blocked. My guess is that the user forgets their password and creates a new user ID. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:51, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I knew about the multiple Neptunekh accounts, I was referring to this user's habits of continuing questions on individual talk pages in a particular way that struck a memory with me. The planet colour guy started that way and ISTR another account that was obsessed with certain animation programs and voice actors/actresses that did the same. Matt Deres (talk) 17:11, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

It does sound familiar, maybe from some time back. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm reminded of the Nintendo questions person, too, but that's just speculation. Mingmingla (talk) 17:55, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

I have some doubts the Neptukekh is the same person as planet colour guy. AFAIK, planet colour guy was linked to Freewayguy. Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 63#Planet colour guy. There was some evidence based on questions asked and IPs that they lived in or had a strong connection to the US [2]. Based on questions and comments Neptunekh seems to live in Canada or at least has a strong connection to there. While it's not impossible both are true, it seems strange someone would change from one to the other particularly since IIRC Planet colour guy never made much attempt to hide who they were under multiple aliases. Also I can't remember Planetcolourguy being particularly interested in actors etc. Neptukekh does remind me more of the seccond person Matt Deres mentioned who is the person who claimed to be blind and that their 'friend' was 'hacking' their connection. IIRC and a quick check at the history Special:Contributions/204.112.104.172 Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 79#WordGirl/Justin Bieber concurs with what Matt Deres said, that they had an interest in voice actors and appeared to be from Canada and had a habit of asking questions on the users talk page. However Neptunekh has been on wikipedia since before that editor was blocked and their interests even far back don't really seem that similar, Neptukekh's interest seem a fair amount more mature. Nil Einne (talk) 11:06, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

User:Neptunekh, User:Neptunekh2, User:Neptunekh94 are either the same person or someone pretending to be the same person (British Canadian, autographs, NeptunekhXX name). OsmanRF34 (talk) 00:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty much a given. And although they haven't declared these as alternate accounts, which is a rule violation, it's about as obvious as the nose on its face. Weird character, but not necessarily blockable. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

AFAIK, per the Wikipedia:Sock puppetry (and a quick read confirms with my understanding), linking alternative accounts isn't required just strongly encouraged. In other words, provided you aren't doing something with the alternative accounts that is in violating with policy, failing to link them isn't going to get you blocked i.e. it can't be called a 'rule violation'. Failing to link accounts can cause problems when your edits come under scrutiny. Nil Einne (talk) 11:11, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

If so, then there's no known problem. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Not unless you figure that multiple questions of rather intricate detail that might be better suited to a specialist forum for autograph hunters is a problem. Dismas|^(talk) 13:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

six days only?

I notice the miscellaneous desk is archiving rather quickly, with only six days active at this point and hardly that many questions. I thought we were going to go to seven days for all desks? Given I cannot change this myself, can someone either lengthen the age-til-archiving or explain why it's a problem? Thanks. (And I do appreciate the work involved!) μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Funny, I just yesterday and today independently asked the following at User talk:Ummit, who is in charge of the bot:

The math reference desk for 28 November was archived on 01:16, 2 December 2012 while discussions of 28 November threads were still going on. That caused the most recent edits to not show up in the reference desk's history. This was way too soon to be archiving. Please reset the bot for a lag of at least a week. Thanks.

and

What I don't understand is why the things that have been archived remain on the unarchived page for a few more days. (I don't know anything about computer site management, so I apologize if I'm asking about something that should be obvious to me.) But it seems to me that load time of the refdesk page is not going to be held down by archiving something while leaving it on the refdesk page. For example, right now the November archives for the math desk go through Nov. 29, yet November 27, 28, and 29 are still on the math refdesk. And when somebody posts something on a Nov. 28 thread, the post shows up on both the Nov. 28 section of the refdesk and the Nov. 28 section of the archives, but does not show up in the "history" section of changes to the refdesk. So someone like me who checks the history section for recent changes is misled into thinking that no recent changes have been made to a Nov. 28 thread of interest.

You can see his replies on his talk page. Duoduoduo (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

To clarify, there are sort of two questions here:

1. What's the right size/date range to keep each desk archived to, and
2. What are the reasons (if any) for leaving an archived page transcluded onto the main page for a few days?

(I wasn't sure I knew the answer to (2), but now I might be remembering: while an archived-but-transcluded day doesn't help with the load time of the page while viewing, it does help with the load time while editing.)

For reference, the current archiving intervals were set down after this talk page debate, with also this later followup. —Steve Summit (talk) 05:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

One of the suggestions made in that discussion about archiving intervals was that a date could be archived 3, or 4, days after it has last been edited. If technically feasible, I think that's a good idea. Otherwise, once a date has been archived and transcluded, the refdesk's edit history doesn't show when someone has just edited an ongoing discussion. Duoduoduo (talk) 13:49, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Steve, is it technically feasible to archive a date's refdesk section after 4 days but no earlier than 3 days after the last post to any of the threads on that date's section? Duoduoduo (talk) 15:22, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Not with the current RD-archiving bot.

One bot that does work that way is MiszaBot (a widely-used bot that archives, among other things, this talk page). —Steve Summit (talk) 03:24, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Removed hat

I have removed a hat here: [3]. While I agree that the tenor of many of the responses was incorrect for the reference desk, some people hatted did provide references to back up their (in my opinion) incorrectly toned responses. As I have stated before in different terms, it is not appropriate to hat or shut down discussion in these cases. The correct response when faced with a bad answer to a question is to refute the bad answer with better sources or with more rational interpretations of those sources, not to stifle the discussion. We combat ignorance with knowledge, not with making people shut up. --Jayron32 18:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

If you always have to refute bad answers we won't hat any answer. Medeis won't be happy with this. OsmanRF34 (talk) 18:15, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying that we never hat or remove anything. What I am saying is that this specific kind of thing is not how we hat things. Merely being wrong is not, in itself, enough of a reason to remove it. --Jayron32 18:30, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah, yes, so now I should go back and talk about what stuck-up jerks Brits are and quote some blog and link to the article arrogant so I can claim my debating "refuting" on a totally non-encyclopedic topic is "referenced"? Or how bout I ask the OP why he hangs out with stupid people? Such "refutation" is debate, not answering a valid question, and is expressly against the policy quoted when that nonsense was hatted. "Why are the people I meet stupid?" is simply not a reference desk topic and the answers are worse. Hey, but we're all bored and maybe this will help the ratings, so why close it. μηδείς (talk) 18:42, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't help to set up strawmen to knock down here, Medeis. You know that the scenario that you outline is not what is being proposed. If people ask questions with bad assumptions, or give answers without references or rational responses, the proper action is to provide references and draw rational, dispassionate conclusions from those references. No one has proposed what you are above. So, you can quit acting like people who object to your hats do so because they want people to behave badly. Instead, hatting is not the best response to this sort of bad behavior, the best response is to provide references with dispassionate, well reasoned conclusions. --Jayron32 19:18, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Seeing the gravitas with which Jayron the Administrator addresses the issue of what is a correct response when one is faced with a bad answer, dare one still ask whether Jayron is amenable to well sourced refutation of what Jayron posts, or is such impertinence to be stifled? SkylonS (talk) 10:22, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

You're the only person talking about stifling things, and impertinence. What Jayron wrote bore no relationship to either of those things. Maybe you should read it again. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 10:54, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I read Jayron's post again. "Not to stifle discussion" it says. Yupp, just the same as I read the first time. Now there are 3 of us all talking about stifling things but no visible answer from Jayron. I worry about your interest JackofOz because I saw your declaration that you would "fight to the death" for free speech on a Ref. desk, and I would hate for that to happen. SkylonS (talk) 11:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

And that was my point. Jayron is saying that we do NOT stifle discussion, but "refute the bad answer with better sources or with more rational interpretations of those sources". This thread seems overloaded with strawmen, for some odd reason. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 12:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Stifle discussion by hatting: bad.

Refute bad arguments with better ones: good.

Setting up strawmen: bad.

—Steve Summit (talk) 13:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

SkylonS (talk · contribs) - A fake newbie is not good either. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Especially, come to think of it, if the fake newbie is a sock of a blocked user. Hmm. —Steve Summit (talk) 02:41, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Reference Desk Etiquette

Is there any appropriate method that I can use to promote one of my old threads to today's section so that someone else besides the person who originally tried but failed to help me can attempt to resolve my original inquiry?

BCG999 (talk) 18:25, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

It would be no problem as such, just restate the question and provide a link to the old one. μηδείς (talk) 18:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I disagree -- did you look at that question? If BCG999 can restate the question clearly in no more than one or two paragraphs, go ahead and try again. Otherwise there is no point in cluttering up the desk with a restatement of a question that nobody can understand. Looie496 (talk) 19:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

No, I wasn't about to go searching for what post the OP was referring to, which is why I said "no problem as such". Of course certain questions are themselves problematic. I also took the OP's comment of an "old thread" to mean one that had been archived, which is why I said provide a link. If it's still live it shouldn't be reposted. μηδείς (talk) 20:44, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Generally speaking, if a thread is still on the RD, there's no acceptance of any need to 'promote' it. If no one has successfully answered, there's a good chance promoting is not going to make much difference. If you wich to clarify some aspect, clarifying it in situ is usually acceptable. Reasking may sometimes also be okay, particularly in TLDR situations provided your new version is sufficiently better and you mention the previous question. Similarly, even once a question has left the RD, if it's just recent posting it again without significant changes is often frowned upon. If you need to clarify or reword it, asking it again would generally be acceptable (while linking to the older question) because there's a fair chance it may no longer be see. If it's been several weeks or months, it may be okay if you link to the previous question, to ask it again even without rewording but if you find you need to do this more then once it's likely time to give up. Similarly if you often find yourself wanting to reask your questions after several weeks or months you likely need to consider whether your actually likely to get a better answer. Nil Einne (talk) 20:40, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Another removal

I removed a daft non-question that has no place here. Hoping others concur, --Viennese Waltz 19:14, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, technically it is a question. And try to have a little sympathy for those folks slithering around west Texas. The abundance of heat and the lack of water can make 'em plum loco. (That's cowboyspeak for "daft"). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

• concur. Daftness most egregious. --Jayron32 21:46, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

what action re legal and medical advice all in one

The last question at the bottom of this thread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Miscellaneous#drug_screening_and_prescription_pain_medication_abuse involves a medical and legal question that I don't think we should answer, given the risks both of not acting on one hand and of making a false accusation on the other. As a ref desk editor I would like to hat, or, in this case remove the question. As a person, I would like to say seek legal advice if you have evidence of actual self-harm and do nothing that might get someone denied treatment that he needs by making accusations on suspicions that may be unfounded. This is a tuffy. μηδείς (talk) 20:46, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't think we need to either hat or remove the question. We can simply tell the OP that it's beyond the brief of the Ref Desk to get into it at all, and leave it at that. Not every question that doesn't get the response the OP may have hoped for is deserving of hatting or removal. Those actions are for extreme cases, and we're supposed to see extreme cases very infrequently.

It's only a "tuffy" if one assumes we have any responsibility in the matter. We don't. Bottom line is that we're not even responsible for the lives of others who are around us or are known to us personally, let alone around or known to our OPs. We might care, but that doesn't mean we have any right or responsibility to get involved just because someone asked a question. It's essentially a moral question (What should I do?) and that's not something a reference desk should be involving itself in at all.

If one cares enough as a person, one is free to get in touch with the OP privately outside the ref desk. But that would also be an extreme response. We may be unpaid volunteers here, but that doesn't mean we don't practice professional detachment. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:15, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, then I will tell him what I am tempted to tell him. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you could go to Bubba73's talk page and ask him what his question was about. He's been here a lot longer than you have. Don't treat him like a jerk. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:12, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

What in the world are you talking about treating anyone like a jerk? Did you read my response to him? Why would I even discuss this here and not remove the question if I didn't think it was in good faith or wasn't concerned? Please do get back to me. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I can't speak for Bugs, but there does seem to be a bit of a disconnect between your obvious desire to be helpful to the OP (I've read your response) and your talk of removing the question. The two actions seem to be a somewhat ill-matched pair. Whatever purpose the removal of the question might have had, it would not have demonstrated helpfulness on the part of the ref desk towards the OP. More likely the opposite. Maybe Bugs is picking up on that. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 07:02, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I have asked Bubba73 to come here and discuss. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:57, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

It's very simple. I am not sure if the question should not be removed, but if it is not, I have a response and have made it. I don't think its problematic (unless the question itself is) and think it's clearly enough expressed that it doesn't need further parsing here. Bubba can always contact me, but as far as I am concerned this matter has been addressed. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

New NeptuneKH94 sockpuppet nonsense

Isn't this User:Venustar84 the same person who keeps asking about autographs and erasing posts? Seems to be at it again. See this post, the original one at the misc ref desk, the fact that the post was erased at the miscellaneous desk, and the new user's user page with planetary-number name citing his autograph collection? μηδείς (talk) 02:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Down the hall, third door on the left. --Jayron32 04:47, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Unless any of these Venus and Neptune "alternate accounts" are currently blocked, I doubt a checkuser would give an SPI the time of day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:52, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I mostly agree with BB. Per our current policy (or my understanding of it), nothing's likely to happen unless one of the accounts is blocked. Presuming this is NeptureKH94 again, their habit of creating new accounts may be annoying but for better or worse isn't forbidden unless they are doing something which itself is forbidden. You could perhaps argue they are trying to avoid scrutiny, but really the best first instance here would be ask then why they feel the need to create so many accounts. If their questions and behaviour on the RD is getting too annoying, again it would be best to approach them about it. I believe some attempts were made to approach them about the deleting questions bit, but I'm not sure if there has been any general approach. Now if they refuse to change and we come to a consensus to topic ban them from the RD and they deny some or all of the accounts are theirs or we see another account which we suspect is theirs, then a SPI would likely be useful but otherwise there's most likely no point. As is stands, this case isn't likely to get permission for a checkuser so all a SPI is likely to say is it's probably all them based on behavioural evidence (presuming the case isn't rejected outright) but nothing is going to happen. Nil Einne (talk) 16:04, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Looking more carefully I noticed one of the accounts does have a block log, including a one year block [4]. However, at least from the accounts shown so far, there doesn't seem to have been any editing while blocked. This does further reenforce the idea the editor may be attempting to avoid scrunity so I'm going to suggest they stick with one account. Nil Einne (talk) 16:17, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

BTW the block summary here [5] has some informative discussions about this editor. The last link doesn't work, it's here Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive714#Neptunekh2. Their RD issues has had some minor discussion before but the main reason for the block was mainspace competence issues including copyvios, poor categorisation behaviour and creating lots of stubs which they then ask people to expand on the help desk. Their mainspace contribs seem to have been short and a quick look suggests they're mostly categorisations (including creating some new cats). So I doubt copyvio or creating poor article problems are reoccuring but it may be helpful to check out their categorisation to see if it's been helpful or they're reverting to the same poor behaviour. Nil Einne (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The repeated deletion of answered questions and conversations on other people's talk pages is problematic (see such an action more recent than this thread) and it's been explained to the user by me at User talk:Neptunekh94 and by Jack elsewhere that it shouldn't be done. I think an indefinite (but conditionally temporary) block of the user at both the most recent Neptune and Venus accounts suggesting he stick to one account and to be removed immediately once he acknowledges he understands he's not to delete material once it has been responded to would do a whole lot of good. I am putting a final warning on the two recent pages given his knowledge of being blocked, his warnings by Jack and me, and his creation of a new account immediately after those warnings. μηδείς (talk) 18:03, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I've changed my user accounts many time because I have moved many times and I keep forgetting passwords.Venustar84 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:00, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

When people in RL use many different aliases, others have a funny habit of suspecting their motives. Just sayin'. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I will be sticking to this account/username. Don't worry. Venustar84 (talk) 02:44, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Closure of posts

I would like to ask the admin who keeps closing questions to step forward and say "I do close the posts", so I can rush Jeffrey Dahmer on him. Not really, just a joke, but why are posts closed? why? Keeeith (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

I suspect without checking this is primarily μηδείς who is not an admin but is noted for frequently and sometimes controversially closing posts. In this particular instance I can't say I fault them. You've recently been asking a lot of questions which are one or a combination of questions not suitable for the RD (i.e. personal advice questions that we can't plausibly answer with a reference like whether you left too many 'voice mail' messages for the governor general) or which you should be able to find with a simple search or possibly even reading our article (like repeated questions about dual citizenship policies of various countries, at least one of which you asked again after already being given the answer a few weeks ago) or questions based on supported assertations (like the one about murder and suicide) or questions which don't actually seem to be questions but just intended to tell us how bad Philipp Bouhler or Nazis are. Now if you'd only ask one or two of these, probably no one would care, but given that this is most of many contributions to the RD in the last few days, it seems I'm not the only one you're annoying or in fact are making think you're a troll. Nil Einne (talk) 13:46, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I've changed my mind and will stop asking not needed questions, but I can assure you that I'm not a troll. Thank you. Keeeith (talk) 13:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)