Talk:Borscht

Svekolnik =/= Kholodnic

Again. Aside from Pohlyobkin's definition of "svekolnik", there is Ushakov's definition, as well as Ozhegov's definition from XX century: Svekolnik word is a word which generally describes a dish - or a soup - made of beet. Therefore, "svekolnik" is not an exact equivalent of "kholodnik".

In this sense, the following passage actually describes a dish which qualies as "svekolnick" genre of foods; despite not being a borscht or a soup, hence the possible confusion between "kholodnick" and "svekolnick".

There is a cold dish coming from Soviet cuisine known in Russia as "Selyodka pod shuboi", literally "herring under furcoat". It is, in a sense, a kholodnick-themed way to serve canned fish "fillet" bits, or a way to de-soup kholodnick. It is made by putting food in layers:

Canned, marinated herring goes in a deep plate/pie-baking tray to form the bottom layer,

Normally, there also is a middle layer made with mashed/grated vegetables like potatoes.

Finally, grated/minced beet mixed with (sour) cream is used to form the top layer, the "furcoat" of fish.

things Ermenrich have removed for being "un-encyclopedic" (and for the lack of links)

I just feel like leaving it here for future re-use, future improvingthe article once i get some proper links:

As for the "borshch" word for hogweed, it's "Borshchevik" nowadays. A shift of perception has happened: nowadays, single "borshchevik" word is associated with a different kind of hogweed, unedible, toxic "Borshchevik Sosnowskogo" kind of hogweed instead of common hogweed.

Quite a thing in Russia to gasp "Borshchevik? It's toxic! Unedible!". But, I can't help rn (at work).

Originally, borscht was cooked with herbal kvass, before the beet kvass soup became popular. In this sense, there are plenty of tart alternatives for beets in borscht – cherries, prunes, strawberries, cranberries et al; with tomatoes being the most popular tart alternative to the beet.

There's literally a chapter on ancient borshchts (pre-beet ones).

As for modern kvass-based soups, okroshka soups are meant to be kvass-based, and thus, a kvass-based borscht may be mistaken for one.

I'll just leave it here for future proving/disproving.

Confusing the origins. And where's the consensus?

Apparently, if you visit archived talk pages with a PC, and use ctrl+f command to find "consensus" word, there will be no proper info on the origins of borscht. Popular modern borscht with beets, on the contrary, is brought too many times. Apparently, TaivoLinguist makes a repetitive error per WP:IDHT, confusing two distantly related entities. As for November 2022, we can clearly see there is a long gap between the original, ancient hogweed borscht and the modern beet "borscht" borscht.

In this sense, borscht is both is and isn't originating in Ukraine or "what now is Ukraine", as its origin seems to be lost in ages

This complication is common for food and drinks. Say, modern beer requires hop to be "beer" beer. Ancient kinds of beer, on the other hand, already existed around 3000 B.C. and counting.

Recommended course of action: remove the "country of origin" bar for borscht just to avoid further confusion. 2A00:1FA0:46E7:C1B6:0:51:E6B3:5901 (talk) 23:54, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

"Consensus" in Wikipedia is not always accompanied by the actual word "consensus" so a simplistic search for the word in order to demonstrate consensus is not always successful (probably only rarely in my long experience here). The consensus, supported by reliable sources (both from Ukrainian and Russian sources) points to Ukraine. In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot, so it is perfectly appropriate that the article on "borscht" focus on the modern beetroot definition of the word. The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading. We could carry that argument forward to the point that "borscht comes from the first time that a woman boiled plant matter mixed with a little meat to make a soup" back in primordial history. Everything comes from something else, there is virtually nothing created ex nihilo. All those things that are called "borsch" (a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup") in Eastern Europe are not what is meant by the English word "borscht". This is the English Wikipedia, after all. Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else. Too many reliable sources to ignore point to the Ukrainian origins of what English speakers know as "borscht". The other things called "borsch" by Europeans in languages that are not English are precedents for "borscht", but they are not what the English word refers to. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 03:39, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Which exactly bar are you talking about? Borscht is not supposed to be an alcoholic beverage ;)

Sure, there is a bar-like resturant in Sochi, Russia, named "Borsch" [sic]. But could you please be more specific? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:26, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be either confused or inconsistent. A note how "borsch" is "a word that in Proto-Slavic basically meant "soup" is not really a thing; instead, there was Proto-Slavic bŭrščǐ, which legit means "hogweed". As for you claim, "In English, "borscht" is made from beetroot"... well beets are merely a novel ingredient for already existing borscht. What do you mean by saying "The argument that "beetroot borscht comes from something else" is misleading"? You appear to disrupt my point by substituting entities, essentially creating straw man arguments. The discussions on beets in borscht you tried to start should be cut short. Apparently, there is WP:IDHT indeed, as well as bias towards beets and beet soups. For example, in one of the archived topics, you have a claim how borscht cannot be Polish because it's "barszcz". I still hope you did not mean to resort to whataboutism with the "is equivalent to saying that Joe Biden was not born in Scranton, Pennsylvania because his ancestors were born somewhere else" analogy. I still hope you mixed things up a bit upon writing "Demanding that pre-borscht varieties of hogweed soup be considered as "confusing" to marking the origin of "borscht" in Ukraine". As for October 2022, there's a chronology on the developing of borscht dishes. "Origin", "Diversification", and only then, "Novel ingredients". Besides, I wouldn't expect a linguist to confuse singular and plural unless there's "the heat of a moment" rush. Same goes to bringing out the idea of mixing beets and meats all of a sudden: that's also a straw man, because I was talking about the hogweed concoction. By the way, not only the ancient fermented hogweed soup/hogweed kvass from the "Origins" section was the first dish to get a name that means borscht, but there's Polish borscht as well, the aforementioned barszcz biały, comes before the "novel ingredients" section era. As for "We could carry that argument", please don't do it. The implications there's only one family of borschts, the beet borscht and its subkinds, would have some validity if there were "Borscht" trademark popular product in question, and its flankers. At this rate I fear I would see a consensus on how soda, a.k.a. fizzy pop originates from Atlanta, Georgia one day, per Coca-cola being the most prominent kind of it, and not Jacob Schweppe's initial invention of water carbonation device; because there would be an argument that referring to Jacob Schweppe would "carry that argument" to the first person to ever taste a water with added sodium in it; not even naturally created carbonated water, but water with sodium. 2A00:1FA0:4817:FB7A:0:B:AC6E:C701 (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You don't really address any of the points I made since you don't seem to understand that this is the English Wikipedia and the primary focus of this article is on what "borscht" means in English and the English-speaking world, not on a history of what various Slavic words for hogweed soup mean in Eastern Europe. Their history can serve as a background for the origins of borscht, but the word "borscht" in English means first and foremost the beetroot soup that originated in Ukraine. Your quibbling about how I used a general English word to cover the various Slavic forms is a red herring. The point isn't the details of Polish or Lithuanian or Czech spelling or the finely tuned reconstructed Proto-Slavic form. The point is that the word "borscht" in English (remember that this is the English Wikipedia) means "beetroot soup". It might have developed from something else in Eastern Europe (remember my comment about nearly everything comes from something else), but the meaning of the word in English isn't that "something else", but is the beetroot soup, therefore stating that its origin is in Ukraine is perfectly correct and unambiguous. You also clearly didn't understand the topic of the comment in which I said that Polish "barszcz" couldn't be the origin of "borscht". That comment, as I remember, was in a context of a discussion of the origin of the word "borscht" and had nothing to do with the origin of the soup. The word "borscht" comes from Yiddish, of course, not Polish (and not Ukrainian either). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 08:54, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

It appears your idea of English-speaking world somehow does not include, well, the world. To this day, people across the world study English as a compulsory subject; and computers are really easy to use now. Simply put, not only a Japanese student "speaking" wasei-eigo can make sense of English texts; but also a child from Bangladesh can access English Wikipedia with a new cheap smartphone and some magic of automatic translation. In fact, I am using a smarty right now as well, with its keyboard being enough to type this. I understand how you are adamant on how borscht is expected to be full of beets, but without the sourness, a beet soup is not a borscht. Answer me this: beet soup is "beet soup", simple as. 2A00:1FA0:46B8:7F5F:0:63:1F63:DC01 (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

You still misunderstand. The word "borscht" in English refers to a beetroot soup, "sourness" is irrelevant. I know that in Eastern European languages there is a great deal of fine-tuned differentiation, but that is for the Eastern European language Wikipediae. It's sort of like the difference between "gulyas" in Hungarian and "goulash" in English. They are quite different things even though the English word is a loanword from Hungarian. I just looked up the word "borscht" in my American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language and found as the very first words following "borscht": "A beet soup served hot or cold, usually with sour cream." There is no mention whatsoever of anything else. That's the full definition. The Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition defines "borsch" as "A Russian [sic] soup of several ingredients, esp. beetroot and cabbage." The English word "borscht" is intimately tied to those good old red beetroots. It doesn't matter if the Polish or Belarusian or Latvian words mean other combinations of ingredients, this is still the English language Wikipedia and the English word "borscht" has a different reference that doesn't necessarily match the words in Slavic languages just as the English word "goulash" has a radically different reference than the word in Hungarian. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Come to think of Bangladesh, there's a grand soup on par with borscht, Thais' tom yum soup. It is "labelled" as something originating from Thailand. If you read more, you'll see how Thai people reserved their metaphorical "rights" to "own" tom yum: they imported lime and started to use its leaves. And modern tom yum just can't be a "proper" tom yum now without dat lime leaf. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly where you get the "failing to get the point" WP:IDHT upgraded to "Wikipedia is not a dictionary]]" WP:DICDEF. Quite a self-explainatory issue: it is a bit odd to reduce the article's content to dictionary reference, isn't it? Guess we can finally agree on what is the actual red herring here. You should add a note to the infobox on the country of origin, whick exactly kind of borscht is meant. As a small extra homework, try googling "borsch" (borsch -borscht) and "borscht", then come back to ask why every picture of borscht has a white blob. 2A00:1FA0:4A5F:52D3:0:46:A90F:6401 (talk) 23:21, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

You're still wandering in the darkness about what "borscht" means to English speakers. Maybe that dollop of sour cream confuses you. This article is about what "borscht" means to the English speaking world (and that doesn't include random anon editors from russia who happen to speak English as a second language and are trying to scrub "Ukraine" from Wikipedia). This article is perfectly fine as it stands--it identifies "borscht" as a primarily beetroot soup, it points to other related sour soups in Eastern Europe that are related to beetroot borscht, it describes the history of beetroot borscht and what is known of the pre-beetroot history of borscht, and it identifies the homeland of beetroot borscht. It's a complete article that traces the Ukrainian origins of what the English-speaking world knows as "borscht". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 01:08, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

This. My mom would cook borshch without adding anything sour, and still refer to the soup as "borshch". 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

In fact, my mother's borshch is so simplified it may be considered to be something vegan. Yet the USSR's "Encyclopedia of Householding" indeed seems to be really loose with the "sourness" part of борщ. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Dear IPv6 anonie, your "posh" style of speech just reeks. It stinks with non-encyclopedical amount of condescendingness. As Russian Wikipedians say, "znachimost ne pokazana", the value's not shown. There are 2 main lines of borscht: beet borscht and tomato borscht. My mom would cook a beet soup without anything tarty or souryu~; still calls it "borshch" to this day. You want to chat on how "borscht" is different from "borshch", be my guest! As for the sour hogweed and bialy borshch you keep advertising here, the closest thing I ever had were ramson (e.g. wild leek, known in Russian as "cheremshah") in picked form and a Maggi cube in my oatmeal. ALSO: you can literally see a tureen of thick borscht without a single drop of anything creamy right here, right on this very article. If you have a problem with the infobox, try designing your own one, because Taivo just had enough. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:37, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Nevertheless, there is a separate infobox on how borscht happens to a piece of cultural heritage, protected by UNESCO as "entry #1862". It is not a big deal to request a mere stylistic edit to temporarily remove the "country of origin" from the first infobox for now, as long as you have another infobox solely designed to remind how borscht is tied to Ukraine by UNESCO. The stylistic problem is, by misattributing a label "Ukrainian" to too many varieties of borscht, one may mess up and fail to tell which exactly kind of borscht is the traditional borscht to care about. The problem is, any tomato soup technically falls into the broad "borscht" category, so it is possible to poke fun at Campbell's canned tomato soup, joking on how Campbell "borrowed" a Ukrainian dish. 2A00:1FA0:4242:703E:0:6A:1618:8201 (talk) 23:16, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You're reaching for the absurd in your desperate russian attempt to scrub "Ukraine" from Wikipedia. Wikipedia's article on "borscht" has been a particular target of putin's wrath. "Temporarily"? Where does that come from? Borscht is not "temporarily" Ukrainian nor is it "temporarily" not Ukrainian. In Wikipedia we do not "temporarily" make an edit just so that you can be happy until you can convince a consensus. You are the one who has to convince a consensus of editors of your position. Until then, the status quo prevails and remains the text in the article. And "tomato soup"? That's another of your baseless and ridiculous arguments to promote the removal of "Ukraine" from Wikipedia. You simply refuse to admit the simple fact that "borscht" in English and the English-speaking world is made with beetroots. Other forms are precursors to borscht or minor variants that are not "borscht" to English speakers. Your anti-Ukrainian crusade is an argument against facts: Reliable sources in various languages (including Russian) overwhelmingly place the origin of borscht in Ukraine and reliable English language sources overwhelmingly place beetroots in borscht. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 05:14, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Back to the original IPv6 anon's question.

1. If I were to ask a for a bowl of borscht and served a bowl of borscht with beets yet without smetana aka sour cream, I would only ask the cook where's dat smetana is at.
2. If I were served anything else known as borscht, such as greenish sorrel borscht - even with sour cream - I would ask "Are sure it's supposed to be my borscht?"
3. And the same point would go to the case of having tomato borscht upon ordering "borscht". I would ask "Are you sure it's my borscht and not someone else's gazpacho?". Ergo: Beets are the least interchangeable ingredient of borscht nowadays. Here you go. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

BTW, IPv6 anon's "cannot say all beer is German in origin" analogy is too weak to be an argument, as people tend to drink beer for the alcohol content, not just hops. Although 0% alc. beer is a fine drink; beer's key ingredient is alcohol, not hops. Boom. Pwned. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:37, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I actually completely agree, you can't put a place of origin on something so old, widespread, and commonplace as Borscht. It would be like trying to place an origin on Tomato Soup or Chicken Soup. It's great to leave the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage infobox up to show the UNESCO has recognised the unique Ukrainian style of this pan-slavic soup, but even UNESCO themselves say that Ukrainian Borscht is just one "national version of borscht consumed in several countries of the region." Also Taivo your argument about the dictionary definition of the word in English actually disproves your point, since no reputable dictionary either offline or online defines Borscht as coming from Ukraine. In fact most English dictionary definitions actually match the Lithuanian style (cold Borscht). Flyingfishee (talk) 12:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Once again, you dive into any triviality to deny the Ukrainian origin of beetroot borscht, the only kind of borscht recognized as "borscht" by the vast majority of the English-speaking world and defined as such by multiple reliable sources from beyond the borders of Ukraine. Even American dictionaries of English from the middle of the 20th century cite the origin of "borscht" as "Little Russia" (aka Ukraine). The type of rhetorical gymnastics is simply amazing. The questions posed by the anon IP from 10 November are perfect in defininig that "borscht" as a soup in the English language is 1) red with beetroot (and only beetroot), and 2) might or might not have smetana. Your argument that other things are also called "borscht" doesn't apply to the meaning of the word in English, but only to other soups called "borsch" in other languages, but not in English. And, again, multiple reliable sources (including Russian-language sources from russia and the Soviet Union) place the origin of beetroot borscht in Ukraine. And your comment, Flyingfishee, that the modern dictionary definitions of "borscht" match Lithuanian cold borscht better ignores the fact that Lithuanian beetroot borscht originated in Ukraine (as do all beetroot borschts per reliable sources) and Ukrainians also eat cold borscht as well as hot. Reheating is not required. It's like saying that airplanes are also found in russia. Airplanes were invented in the US, but they have spread to russia. But that doesn't mean that their origin wasn't in the US. That utterly negates your use of the UNESCO statement to justify the non-Ukrainian origin of beetroot borscht. The statement says that the Ukrainian version is one of several national versions, but it does NOT state that the ultimate origin of beetroot borscht is anywhere other than in Ukraine. Just as there are different national airplane companies, the origin of the airplane is in the US. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 16:40, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

1. I wonder if modern canned tomato soup is indeed a thing from XIX century Ukraine at this point.

2. Lemme try a query... [1], [2], [3] ...

>In fact most English dictionary definitions

Nah, my search engine does not agree with FlyingFishee. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:15, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

3. By the way. I added "tomato borscht" section to Tomato soup article. Could you add the references from this article please? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:42, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

4. "Your" long-patrolled version of the article said "Country: Ukraine". Recently, Hike395 edited it into "Place of origin: Ukraine" while replacing every word "paramether" with "param". Very sneaky, tbqh. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean once again, I have no connection with the anon that started this discussion. Please show me one of those "American dictionaries of English from the middle of the 20th century" which cite the origin of Borscht as being little Russia. Even if this did refer to the Ukraine (rather than the Russian neighbourhoods of NYC or San Francisco, something that would make much more sense in the US context - they are both known across the nation as "Little Russia") the term stopped being used after the collapse of the Russian Empire and the rise of the USSR, so it wouldn't make sense for it to appear in a dictionary in the middle of the 20th century.

Furthermore Lithuanian Borscht does not originate from Ukraine, it originates from Lithuania. Hogweed and Beetroot grow all over the region (even though they are not native to the southern Slavic countries like Ukraine or Romania, they were introduced as an invasive species). What makes you think that Ukraine has a better claim to the origin of Borscht than any other country?

Lastly you can't ignore the UNESCO source. For them to avoid stating a clear origins of Borscht suggests that some of the worlds premier experts in cultural heritage can't be sure on the origin of Borscht, so why should we claim that we know better. Flyingfishee (talk) 00:58, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Webster's Unabridged English Dictionary, 2nd edition, 1934. "Little Russia" was a very common term before WWII for Ukraine (especially in anti-communist circles). It's rather silly to think that it might mean "Brighton Beach" and that the editors of WUED were so ill-informed about a common Eastern European cuisine as to think that it did. Beetroot borsch originated in Ukraine according to nearly every source that actually mentions an origin, whether that source was published in russia or anywhere else. Just because it originated in Ukraine doesn't mean that it never spread out of Ukraine into Lithuania, for example, and that the Lithuanians modified it in some way to make it distinct. Not all sources list the place of origin, but those that do state that it's from Ukraine. That is backed up by numerous references from travellers from centuries ago that talk about the unique beetroot soup of "Ukraine" (calling it by whatever name was current at the time, like "Little Russia"). There are plenty of references in the archives of this Talk Page. Look them up if you doubt me. I'll wait. But even if you don't want to look through the archives, I wonder if you've actually read the article. There are multiple places where the origin of beetroot borscht is mentioned with references. (Hint: it's Ukraine). --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:01, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I wonder if FlyingFishee is actually referring to that Lithuania rather than contemporary small Lituhania. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:47, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the quality of that dictionary can be rated as "D" or "d". Please avoid going WP:DICDEF. Профессор кислых щей (talk) 13:39, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

>rather than the Russian neighbourhoods of NYC or San Francisco

Makes me think of Russian_Hill, San_Francisco. Wouldn't the dictionary you refer to (BTW, give download link!) say "Little Russia in NY/SF"? 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:26, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, until the 18th century much of Ukraine was part of the Grand Duchy of Poland and Lithuania. "Download link"? To a several thousand-page dictionary that is 90 years old? I just pick my copy off my shelf and turn the pages. Well, it weighs about 20 pounds and is about 9 inches thick, so it's a two-handed job to "pick my copy off my shelf". --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 12:56, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy 2023, Taivo! Wish you to get some tupperware-like airtight boxes to store batches of borscht; should it be made of beets, tomatoes or such a rare herb as edible hogweed. I did NOT intend to "scrub" such a sensitive word as Ukraine. I merely wanted to tone down a certain implication on how there's no pristine, genuine borscht outside of modern Ukraine. Besides, various Ukrainians despise beet and only consider tomato soups to be "the borscht" (proofs: [lurkmore.wtf/Борщ]). Anyway, shout out to Amakuha for spreading the info on Jewish adoption of borscht. 109.252.69.187 (talk) 13:42, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Similar issue with Light music

You know, I've been thinking. For some reason, light music is labelled as "mainly British" (thanks to Eric Coates' works), yet a lot of music from USA (Muzak etc.) is really close to the British idea of light music. I can imagine a similar argue. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 10:38, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Once again to Ukraine

An editor is currently engaged in trying to erase Ukraine from the history of borscht. Reliable sources are unequivocal in placing the origin of borscht in the territory of Ukraine. While Ukraine has been part of larger powers down through history, it is important for modern readers to easily identify the location of origins with modern names for places. We tell readers that X was invented in Dnipro, not in "Yekaterinoslav". Thus, we tell our readers that borscht was developed in Ukraine, not in some random location in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or in the Russian Empire. This consensus is long-standing here and is based on reliable sources. TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 02:47, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

• "Place of origin" makes more sense this way, by the way, to me now. Thanks 81.89.66.133 (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
• In fact, ½ of previous edits against "country: Ukraine" can be summed up as "there was no such country back then". However, the novel edit "place of origin: Ukraine" and the explanation on how modern names are used to make identification easier... ...can pretty much ease that tension. Which means, my more-than-a-year itch to edit "country: Ukraine" string has been resolved while staying within the consensus. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 09:55, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh, an a little heads up on Russian naming traditions. In many books, one can see lines like "happened in X (now Y)" (example: Konstantinopol (now Stambul). Yet the opposite "Y (formerly X)" is, should I say, vanishingly rare. In this sense, some people still can be a little salty about "the very idea" to use modern names instead of older ones. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 13:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

So in russia a history of the UN talks about "New Amsterdam (now New York)"? Since the russian army is fighting a 21st century war with mid-20th century tactics and equipment, it makes sense I guess. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 18:40, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Nah, you're bringing up the year of 1987 and plus/minus 35 years around it, not 1664. Well, my history schoolbook used to mention New Amsterdam. "New York (before 1664: New Amsterdam)" is the very "vanishingly rare" exception from my schoolbooks I remember. So hey, you hit the spot. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 06:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Before 20 century Ukraine mean borderland REGION in Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth between Poland and Russia, not a country. Maybe more accurate will be using name Galicia or just whole Eastern Europe, because this soup is also Polish, Russian, Baltic and Jewish.

It’s really stupid that soup it’s used for political purpose of building and identity of 30 years old country by UPA/UON nationalism style stolen from other cultures by people how made Volhynia massacre Polish and Jews genocide.

Maybe to separate 30 years country of Ukraine from centuries history of region of many cultures it’s better to create Ukraine (region) to stop cultural appropriation made by Ukrainian nationalists of this rich multicultural region Joaziela (talk) 11:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

One last time trying to explain something simple to someone who doesn't want to hear simple answers, we use the modern names for places so that our readers can easily identify where things happened. It's not about your anti-Ukrainian Russian propaganda, it's about reader friendliness. It's quite simple, actually. I'm going to ignore you now if you want to continue with this ridiculous rant and persist in refusing to listen. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 12:24, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Could you please go bak to Pretzel Sticks. There's no "country" for borscht, there's "place of origin". 109.252.69.187 (talk) 18:44, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

100% agree with you, that is what all rational people are asking for, link to place of origin- region. This region is borderland region historically between Poland and Russia.

So if you want to put active link, maybe its need to be created Ukraine (region), but don’t put Ukraine country (30 years old), what is linked now.

If it have to be linked to country why not Ukraine SSR or Nazi Ukraine or other Ukraine-like country named in 20 century, before that time it was name for region. There is somewhere some borscht older than one particular country that you forced to link by your propaganda agenda Joaziela (talk) 20:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Your anti-Ukrainian bias is still on full display in your comment. It should be clear to you that "modern" means "today", not 100 years ago. Beet-based red borscht originated in a part of the world that is now part of the independent country of Ukraine. That's all there is to the issue. Your hatred of Ukraine is irrelevant. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 20:58, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

There is no hatred, it’s just objectivism. This is encyclopedia, and it should be universal. You are putting a link to country that in that exact shape survive only 23 years and now (in opinion of minority, no hatred, you are really obsessed and full of propaganda) is smaller of Republic of Crimea, Donetsk People's Republic, Luhansk People's Republic. And what going to happen when it’s break more in West Ukraine and East Ukraine (which one than will be linked then) or maybe conquer some more terrain. History didn’t end and by how it’s go we see this territory is very fluid. In any source you going to look authors mean the Ukraine region, not connected to today country Joaziela (talk) 09:10, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I mean, there WAS a plaque named "country of origin". It has already been removed by replacing it with "region of origin". Should Ukraine split into separate halves... this we fix. But that split would not be really related to borscht. 2A00:1370:81A2:6C08:C0B7:B67E:40EC:6485 (talk) 13:27, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I also think Taivo is full of Propaganda class memes. Not that i blame him or doubt his experise. *Angry Litihanian noises* 109.252.69.187 (talk) 13:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Jewish Borscht

Can some add some photos of the Jewish variations of borscht, please? 2A00:1370:81A2:44EB:7021:6CE4:68C6:3C7E (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Beetenbartsch

There was also an East Prussian German variant of Borscht, named Beetenbartsch. It was a classic of East Prussian cuisine. The main difference to other varieties, as far as I can see, is that the beetroot was steamed seperately, then peeled, grated and mixed with sugar and vinegar, before being added to the soup. And the meat, beef in this case, was cooked in one piece, and only diced when done. I'm 1/4 East Prussian from my paternal grandmother's side BTW, but I'm also totally pro-Ukrainian.31.24.11.129 (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)