Talk:The Holocaust

Transcription for the word "Shoah"

There's a tag requesting a transcription for the word Shoah in the first article. I also think there should be a pronunciation listed. I suggest the IPA transcription /'ʃoʊ.ə/, as that's the one I've heard most often. If there's a more common or accepted pronunciation, that should be added in its place. Aykazeb (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Subjects of the Holocaust

I can see that there was some discussion of it and one resolved issue that (I think) is supposed to broaden the definition, but it doesn't seem that great to me. If you go back in the archives there's some great points which explain why extermination of Jews in particular should be the main topic of the article and I totally agree with it. Where I now have the issue is that at the moment the article defines the Holocaust as the extermination of Jews and Jews only. This is:

a) inconsistent with the page itself, which later does talk about other groups targeted (e.g. LGBTQ people, Roma people, Poles, Russians, etc.),

b) inconsistent with "Holocaust victims" - how can the Holocaust be only about Jews and somehow Holocaust victims be a larger group - it's a major inconsistency between articles.

c) (I'd say, with my knowledge of history) simply not true, as the Nazis targeted more than just one group with their policies, even in the same ways - as in, for example talking about certain groups destroying Germany and mentioning other groups than Jews as being "detrimental" (or said differently), e.g. LGBTQ people

d) feels exclusionary to people whose families and places experienced the Holocaust, but who were not of Jewish origin or did/do not identify with the Jewish identity - e.g. Polish people, whose families have been exterminated, etc.

e) seems historically and societally significant, as it shows hate (and in this case a very extreme form of it) going outside a particular group or its feature to a broader category of people deemed "worse" or otherwise "lesser", especially in the context of this being the top website listed after Googling "Holocaust".

Given that, I'd suggest framing the article in a way that clearly states the predominant impact of antisemitism and antisemitic narratives on the development of the Holocaust, and the fact that it predominantly targeted Jews, while understanding and acknowledging the fact that other groups were deeply affected and also targeted. I'd suggest adding a death toll for these groups and writing in the entry something along the lines of "[...] was the genocide of European Jews, together with other minorities and ethnicities in occupied territories, during World War II.". This could even be done on it's own, leaving the rest of the article focused on Jews, since I believe that way it frames the issue quite accurately.

P.S. I'm new to Wikipedia editing, so pls be understanding if I messed up some terminology or this issue has been settled for good, etc. Chrisludw (talk) 19:31, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

No, no—so much no. I have no idea how/why/what/when this article limited the definition of "The Holocaust" to the persecution of Jews, alone—but I cannot emphasize enough just how dangerous that is. My grandfather's family were Hungarian Jews that were murdered; so my own family are among the Holocaust's Jewish victims.

I have studied and followed the telling of Holocaust stories, since I was a teen in suburban Detroit (1980s). Poles, Jews, Communists, gays, Catholics—it was never just about the Jews (in the US; writing from an American social perspective), until major media projects like the Steven Spielberg film that focused on the Jewish experience and the 6 Million Jews, came out. That story needed to be told, and I'm glad it was told! But, The Holocaust is not taught in American schools—and in the US, we desperately need to not ever forget its scope or truth. To limit Wikipedia's article to only the Jewish experience, is such a disservice to the breadth of the 15 Million taken by Hitler's narrowing focus on ethnic cleansing. To never forget, is to never forget; and to limit the scope of this article, is to re-define the Holocaust. Which is not for wikipedians to do. Ninavizz (talk) 08:12, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes exactly! I totally agree with what you've just written, that was exactly my point. What I did say as well is that I'd agree for it to be mostly about Jews, though I do think it should be a lot broader than it is right now. It's just wrong on so many levels - as in, the article how it is right now. 2A00:F41:5849:DF29:54D3:86A7:28E1:33C4 (talk) 12:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect link or caption

The link from "Ivangorod, Ukraine" points to Ivangorod, Russia. So either the link is wrong(most likely) or the caption is wrong. 2A00:A041:2D23:DC00:46ED:CEA7:93A:6FBB (talk) 23:17, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Article scope redux

I realize this is a subject that gets raised over and over again at this talk page. Editors have decided, based on the preponderance of reliable sources, that the primary topic of "the Holocaust" is the genocide of Jews, rather than being inclusive of all victims of Nazi persecution. Unfortunately, the article itself muddles its own topic and tries to have it both ways.

My concrete proposal is to remove the section "Other victims of Nazi persecution" and instead add a hatnote as follows:

This article is about the genocide of Jews. For other groups of victims, see Mass killings by Nazi Germany.

This scope and title of the proposed new article are inspired by the new book Empire of Destruction: A History of Nazi Mass Killing by Alex J. Kay. It would be a broad concept article that covers this article but also anti-partisan warfare, Romani genocide, nazi-induced famines, German mistreatment of Soviet prisoners of war, murder of political opponents, persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany, etc.

I will start the article if the reception is positive. (t · c) buidhe 09:22, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

 Doing... (t · c) buidhe 03:20, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Woah, I am just now seeing this. Please see my comment above. Where is a decision documented, to limit the scope of this article? I cannot object to that emphatically enough, and will collect whatever scholars I might need to, to support such an objection. Ninavizz (talk) 08:16, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate your boldness, but I firmly believe such matters should first achieve a consensus before being removed, especially if there is not article but a day old stub covering them in a much less exhaustive manner. At least keep those additions until the article you created is sufficiently built up. I'm sorry I didn't voice any objections sooner. Best regards. Andro611 (talk) 10:40, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources

• Holocaust: The Nazi Persecution and Murder of the Jews (Longerich, 2010)
• Histories of the Holocaust (Stone, 2010)
• Why?: Explaining the Holocaust (Hayes, 2017)
• Germany's War and the Holocaust (Bartov, 2013)
• The Oxford Handbook of Holocaust Studies (2012)
• A Companion to the Holocaust (2020)
• Politics, Violence, Memory: The New Social Science of the Holocaust. Cornell University Press. 2023. ISBN 978-1-5017-6676-3.
• Beorn, Waitman Wade (2018). The Holocaust in Eastern Europe: At the Epicenter of the Final Solution. Bloomsbury Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4742-3221-0. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buidhe (talk • contribs) 06:01, 23 April 2023 (UTCC) (UTC)

Removal of UNDUE content

This article needs to be shortened to give readers a concise summary of the topic and to meet Wikipedia guidelines for article length. In addition, there are prominent aspects of the Holocaust that are not currently present in the article.

Nazi human experimentation has its own article and as stated in the edit summary affected only an infintestimal proportion of Holocaust victims, while many experimentation victims were not Jewish. A quick persual of the high quality, recent sources listed at the top of this talk page shows that giving it a unique section is clearly undue weight compared to the coverage in these sources. (t · c) buidhe 03:49, 24 April 2023 (UTC)