Talk:Axis powers

Wikipedia requires that all content be verifiable, for this reason no country will be listed in the infobox as an Axis power unless independent, reliable sources on the topic of WW2 can be presented explicitly describing them as an Axis power. If you want a country to be included in the infobox, please find sources to support this before opening a discussion.

The Axis was more than 3 countries...

At many points throughout this article, the Axis is treated as if it was just 3 big countries. Whole sections address only the main 3, as if the others - with their cumulative tens of millions of people - did not exist, and even though the section in question could well include at least some of the "minor" Axis countries. Preferably not segregated between "major" and "minor". You must understand just how toxic this division is: when people see "major", they instantly tend to ignore the rest, thinking that only these "major" ones are worth reading about. And...It's not the case. It absolutely isn't. Transylvania1916 (talk) 21:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what the purpose of your post is. Is there anything specific you are proposing? In general terms, yes, Germany, Japan and Italy are way more significant than the others. I don't see a problem recognising that. In fact, WP:DUE and WP:NPOV requires it. DeCausa (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I would like to add Romania's oil to the "Economic resources" section, for starters. But I am somewhat discouraged by the G-I-J exclusivity within the section, and I wouldn't want to put in the work only to have it reverted. I also strongly advise including the "minor" countries in the heading. Transylvania1916 (talk) 21:21, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with mentioning Romanian oil. But, objectively, Romania was not one of the three major Axis powers. So don't go mad - there can't be disproportionate focus on Romania compared to the major 3. DeCausa (talk) 21:33, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Why is this status thing so important? Italy doesn't hold a candle to Romania in terms of contribution to the war (by which I mean both military and in terms of resources). It really just seems to me to be a petty status thing, and this infuriates me to no end...But nevertheless, I will do my best to abide by your recommendation. Transylvania1916 (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

It just reflects what the WP:RS say per WP:DUE. Can you cite a RS that says that Romania was more significant as an Axis power than Italy? DeCausa (talk) 21:41, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I can cite one that argues for parity between the two, but it would definitely be in the minority, so perhaps I shouldn't bother. Romania did become more important within the Axis after the September 1943, and I do have multiple RS publishers stating this. In the article I only used the one published by an university, but I can back it up if need be. Transylvania1916 (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

but it would definitely be in the minority Have you read WP:DUE? I would suggest that's a Wikipedia policy that you need to look at closely. DeCausa (talk) 22:03, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

I will, thanks. Transylvania1916 (talk) 22:15, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey, can I ask you something? Is it a "wild"/"far-fetched" assertion that Romania became the second Axis power in Europe after Italy surrendered in September 1943? I do have multiple RS for this, but even absent these, would it be? The second Axis power in Europe is naturally the sovereign state next in line. And I doubt it could be argued that this wasn't Romania. I struggle to understand why this would be problematic to state. Transylvania1916 (talk) 12:20, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

That is because up until the Italian surrender they were the big three and in fact were the initial signatories to (what was called) the Tripartite Pact. In fact, Ruamian was not at war until 1941. and was only a major ally of Germany for about a year. Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Why segregate the Axis countries to begin with? Honest question. Transylvania1916 (talk) 13:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

To show which one were founding members? Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

And that matters, because? Again: it's a petty and useless status thing, it's not actual contributions to the war effort that matter, it's some arbitrary status. I got 2 sources that explicitly state that Romania was on par with Italy. Both are in English, by British authors. Both of whom are actually specialized on Romania. If one really digs into Romania, one realizes that there's really no reason why Romania shouldn't be considered a major Axis power. But the "standard" works on the Axis - which this article and others stubbornly stick to - treat Romania as an afterthought. They don't really know the extent of Romania's contribution. And when - alas - I try to give Romania due weight, I'm treated like I have a problem... Transylvania1916 (talk) 14:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Well lets see, RS disagree (see wp:undue), most RS count only Itlay as a major axis ally. Slatersteven (talk) 14:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Their lacunae are not an excuse/argument. If something is incomplete, one should complete it. Anyway, how many different RS - that put Romania on par with Italy - do I need? I got 4 already, but I can dig more. Transylvania1916 (talk) 14:37, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

As you yourself say " But the "standard" works on the Axis - which this article and others stubbornly stick to - treat Romania as an afterthought. ", so until the "standard works" say Rumania was major axis power it's a fringe view. By the way, the sources would have to say "major axis power", and not a case of wp:or for a user to draw conclusion based on what RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

The "standard" works are quite antiquated, perhaps one should consider replacing them. At any rate, I got 4 RS which admittedly don't say "major Axis power", but they do explicitly refer to Romania as "on a par with Italy". Specifically, I would suggest a note in the heading, right after the 3 "major" Axis countries are enumerated, which would state: "Although certain sources also consider Romania as a principal ally, on a par with Italy." Transylvania1916 (talk) 14:48, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this, nothing has been said to change that, and until there is I remain opposed. Thre is no point in arguing the same points over and over again. Slatersteven (talk) 14:50, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

So 4 RS - including one published by Cambridge University - are "nothing" to you? I would think that these would worth at least a note. Transylvania1916 (talk) 14:54, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

For the record, these are the sources which state that Romania was on a par with Italy as a major ally: 1 2 3 Transylvania1916 (talk) 15:11, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

The sources listed above -- Can I use them anywhere in this article? As a note at Romania in the infobox? Somewhere in the text? I just don't want them to go to waste. Transylvania1916 (talk) 16:03, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

We already use at least one, you could try reading the article. Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Just... Explain to me. Why aren't these enough for even a note in the heading? Transylvania1916 (talk) 16:12, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

You link to three sources, two of which are actually by the same author, Dennis Deletant, and the third is simply quoting him. That amounts to one source, albeit Deletant is a decent enough one. What exactly is the edit you want to make based on that? It's unclear to me. DeCausa (talk) 16:43, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, I for one would look at the publisher rather than the author. I just added them in the heading, in a parantheses. Transylvania1916 (talk) 16:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

No that's irrelevant. All the sources you've cited present the opinion of one historian - Deletant. Now can you clearly say what the edit is and where it is? Are you still talking about the infobox or something in the body of the article? If it's the infobox then the opinion of one historian obviously isn't enough. If it's to go into the body of the article then that may be a different matter. But I can't tell exactly what you are proposing. DeCausa (talk) 16:53, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

It's in the heading, the very first couple of sentences. Transylvania1916 (talk) 16:55, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I've just found it and reverted it. You mean the lead not the "heading". You can't put the opinion of one historian in the lead like that, especially while you haven't got consensus. The place for it is in the section on Romania and it should begin with something like "Dennis Deletant believes that Romania was..." You'll need to find an appropriate context for it in that section as well. DeCausa (talk) 17:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Deletant is well-versed in Romania. The sources taken as "standard" by the gatekeepers of this article don't even address Romania to any meaningful extent. They wouldn't really know. Transylvania1916 (talk) 17:10, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

And now I've found that it's already in there quoting Deletant. I don't see that there's anything that needs adding. DeCausa (talk) 17:07, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

• As far as I can see what is being argued is that Romania was one of the major axis powers on a par with Germany, Italy, and Japan. Simply none of the texts that lists the Axis powers actually considers it so. Deletant discusses various aspects in which Romania was an important ally to Germany, but this is not the same thing as him saying they were on a par with DE/IT/JP.
  

I agree with De Causa above that neither the lead section nor the infobox are the right places to discuss the views of a single historian about a single Axis country. If anything, there is already too much in these sections and the article is too long and addresses to much that is peripheral to the actual topic of the Axis powers. FOARP (talk) 04:49, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Map

The new map added has some big mistakes, for example the map depicts Austria and Czechoslovakia as part of the Axis, when in reality Austria was annexed into Germany, while Czechoslovakia was split in two, with Czechia being occupied and transformed into the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, while Slovakia became a client state and one of the signatories of the Tripartite Pact.

Also, Indochina is painted blue, even though it was a French colony, and France was on the side of the Allies, while France itself is divided into the free and occupied parts, which wasn't the case in 1939.

It really needs to be fixed. -- 2804:248:FBC0:5B00:C0E1:9D7C:6B2:EA60 (talk) 01:03, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree that the map is somewhat flawed. The flaws are much more obvious when you click on it and view it in detail: random parts of the map coloured with the Axis colour (e.g., a border region between Burma and India) and countries labelled as Axis members (e.g., Iraq) for which there is no source in the article. It should give a specific date (e.g., mid-1942 when the Axis was at its zenith) and be better sourced. Ideally it should be cropped to the Eurasian land mass and territories of Japan where all the Axis members were. FOARP (talk) 10:06, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Article title?

The article title is "Axis powers", however the article covers the entire Axis (and much besides). The infobox has now been changed to "Major Axis powers" and "Other Axis states", which implies that the other states were possibly not "powers". I'm not going to bother with an RM discussion unless other people agree with this, but this has always struck me as a bit inconsistent - was every member of the Axis an "Axis power" or just some of them? I know we typically don't like article-titles that begin with "The" but isn't the real topic here "The Axis"? Right now The Axis redirects to this article anyway, it surely is the WP:PRIMARY topic compared to other potential axes (e.g., Axis of evil). Am I wrong here? FOARP (talk) 09:21, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I am unsure that not being a major power does not still make you not a minor power. Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources for Finland section

Some chapters are unsourced in the Finland section. I don't see anything factually wrong, and I tried sourcing the sentences but I am unable because the article is protected.

Source for United States special diplomatic relationship with Finland, never declared war (page 62) Google Books: K. Piirimäe (2014-09-11). Roosevelt, Churchill, and the Baltic Question: Allied Relations during the Second World War. Springer. ISBN 978-1-137-44234-5. Retrieved 2023-05-01.

Source detailing the Ryti-Ribbentrop Agreement and the end of the Finnish-German relationship (page 6-7): Google Books: Jussi M. Hanhimäki (1997). Containing Coexistence: America, Russia, and the "Finnish Solution". Kent State University Press. ISBN 978-0-87338-558-9. Retrieved 2023-05-01. 91.158.146.53 (talk) 12:29, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Mentioning the Kingdom of Bulgaria as a minor Axis power

In this article I have noticed a failiure to mention The Kingdom of Bulgaria as an Axis power as they have helped both Nazi Germany and Facist Italy to invade Yugoslavia it mensions it here https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/bulgaria#:~:text=In%20early%20March%201941%2C%20Bulgaria,Pirot%20County%20in%20eastern%20Serbia. Thanks for reading Tyroneius Biggums (talk) 01:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

There is an entire section devoted to Bulgaria. Srnec (talk) 01:29, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Sea kingdom Axis powers join

Sea kingdom Axis powers join 182.224.89.144 (talk) 12:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)