Talk:England

• Archive October 2001-January 2006
• Archive Feburary 2006 - October 2006

National Anthem

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN/KING IS NOT THE ENGLISH NATIONAL ANTHEM IT IS THE UNITED KINGDOM'S NATIONAL ANTHEM. LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY IS THE ENGLISH NATIONAL ANTHEM!

Technically I believe both are anthems through common usage - anthems for both the UK and England have never been legislatively defined. 'Land of Hope and Glory' is used at the Commonwealth games to distinguish England from the UK, but again, I believe this is from common usage. Jshiell 11:37, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Cornwall

Discussions about Cornwall moved to Talk:England/Cornwall. Marnanel 18:02, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Re government, Queen and Prime Minister

Why does the infobox have a cell saying that the form of government of England is constitutional monarchy, that England has Queen Elizabeth II as Queen and Tony Blair MP as Prime Minister? England does not exist as a political entity within the UK and has no government of its own (unless we want to consider it a confederation of counties). According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica:

Despite the political, economic, and cultural legacy that has secured the perpetuation of its name, England no longer officially exists as a governmental or political unit—unlike Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland, which all have varying degrees of self-government in domestic affairs.

I think that that cell should be removed, however, the structure of the template does not permit deleting those entries. The template would have to be substituted to e.g. Template:EnglandInfobox and after modification it could be transcluded here. What does everyone else think?--Rudjek 21:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you are absolutely right. Mucky Duck 21:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried and failed to tweak Template:Infobox UK nation into making the 'government' cells optional. I just substituted the template here for now and removed the 'government' cells. We could make a Template:EnglandInfobox like I proposed above, except that would mean we'd have to go through a TFD to get it deleted, and someone around here may be able to fix the UK nation template.--Rudjek 21:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

This article should not be a platform for anglosupremacist views. The Queen is not the Queen of England, she is the Queen of the trination United Kingdom- supposedly a constitutional monarchy. Look to the constitution! Scotlochy

The Act of Union (1707) certainly implies that England not longer exists as a kingdom and therefore does not have a monarch in a technical sense. However, as a constituent country of the Union it can be seen to share the monarch of the union. Also, the Scotland, Wales and NI pages all use the template shown here: surely if one changes all should for consistency? Jshiell 11:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal(s)

I see this article is listed in the category "Articles to be merged", presumably because of the suggestion to merge the section England#Transport with the article Transport in the UK, but there seems to be no discussion as yet. There is an article stub Transport in England. Personally, I would suggest merging the article Transport in England into Transport in the UK but leaving the section here with a reference to Transport in the UK as the main article.
Or have I missed some English "nationalist" issue? --Boson 09:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I proposed the Merge in a previous discussion but it seems to of disappeared. Reason I proposed for a Merge was the lack of information (Although "Air Transport" had been expanded since time of writing) in all transport sections. I proposed the merging with Transport in UK because it had much longer article than Transport in England section. Chaz247 17:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

additional languages...

Possibly I'm missing something here, but how do we resolve the following two sentences with each other: "British law does not recognise any language as being official" and "Unlike Cornish, BSL is an official language of the UK" So, what is "official" and who decides it?

Previous comment added by Js70062 (talk · contribs) 2006-10-27T15:55:28 

As I understand it, BSL was officially recognized as a minority language in 2003. But Cornish appears to have been officially recognized as a minority language in 2002. This is, of course, not what the article says; so more checking is necessary. --Boson 20:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

White Dragon Flag

At present there is a section about a symbol of England which is the White Dragon Flag. I'm inclined to suggest that this flag does not hold enough significance for the main England article. Additionally, I do not believe that the source provided is reliable (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources and you will surely agree), as it's content does not cite it's sources and has multiple (albiet subtle) race-related slurs (hence it's reason for promoting the flag). Unless a more reliable source for this flag can be found, it is not permissable to include mentions of this flag on Wikipedia. Thoughts? Jhamez84 20:40, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

You're correct, that site isn't what would be called a reliable source. I have removed the section. Thanks/wangi 20:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

See also: Talk:England/Archive 2#White Dragon Flag of the English. Thanks/wangi 20:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I very much suspected this was the case. This flag has also appeared on Flag of England article (inserted by the same user), with claims to it being the predecessor to the St. Georges cross. I'll remove this also on the grounds forsaid. Jhamez84 21:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

That would perhaps be the flag of Wessex? JamesAVD 16:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Misspelling

I changed Catherine of Arragon to Catherine of Aragon as there was an extra 'R'. --Xsamix 11:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Do the British find having a Monarchy to be Necessary?

I was wondering if their is any feeling amongst the British people as to whether or not the Monarchy was really all that necessary......is their a strong sense of National pride concerning the Monarchy? Are most of the British indifferent? Are their people who would like to have the Monarchy abolished?

None of this comes up in the article, and I have never heard anything along these lines myself, but I am rather curious about the subject.......

Thank You Mrlopez2681 18:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well first of all remember that Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of the United Kingdom (as well as a number of other countries such as Canada, Australia, Belieze and Jamaica) not of England specifically.

Though there are a few groups who would like the monarchy abolished, none of these have any serious political representation - for example, the only political party to have an MP in Parliament who also are anti-monarchist are RESPECT. Even in this case, their position on the monarchy is a very small part of their policies (to the extent that the Wikipedia article on them doesn't mention it at all). None of the 'big three' parties in the UK are against it.

I think, in general, the majority are fairly indifferent. A recent book review from the Independent, of a Jeremy Paxman book on the monarchy, sums it all up pretty well - see here. --Robdurbar 18:42, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Even if we did abolish the Monarchy we'd just replace it with a Presidency or something similar. Same difference so what's the point. -- Derek Ross | Talk 19:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

in any case, her majesty the quenn is queen of the United Kingdom, and so should not be mentioned on this page. No monarch has held the title of queen of england since before the act of union of 1707. --Chickenfeed9 16:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

England is part of the UK, therefore she is queen of England. TharkunColl 16:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

So is Croydon. Does that make her Queen of Croydon? I think not.86.29.78.52 04:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Very dumb comment. It doesn't matter what piece of land you sit on within Great Britain, the Queen would still rule over it, even though there isn't really any point in having a queen, as we have government. And by the way, the queen could snatch any land you own, no matter where abouts in GB it is. 85.12.80.128 11:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that she is not queen of Croydon? Which statement is more true? TharkunColl 12:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Lol - the queen can only be the monarch of a kingdom/s (Croydon is not a kingdom, but part of one). Therefore she is the queen of the UK and of Canada which are both regarded as royal possessions, but rules over Croydon through the Kingdom of Great Britain. From 1603 until the act of union in 1707 the monarch was king/queen of England and of Scotland - the two countries being in personal union (i.e having the same head of state) but not political union (i.e. still separate countries). This would leave the unusual position of the monarch being able to go to war against themself if they so chose!. The queen could be queen of Croydon separately as well, if Croydon declared independence from the UK government, but retained the queen as head of state I suppose.....Freedom for Croydon! Mammal4 12:00, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Far better than a president, thanks. (God save the Queen) Bilbo B 12:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

All very entertaining, but what on earth does it have to do with this article? Anyway, Croydon was annexed by Poland in 1307 and has never been formally returned, so it is now really a crown posession of the Mayor of Riga via endless chains of primogeniture stretching over millenia. The same thing applies to Washington DC, which really belongs to my male heirs so long as they are catholics. MarkThomas 13:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Map

There's a discussion going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Location_Maps_for_European_countries--_discussion_continues about the use of a new map style and the merits or otherwise of including EU member states on maps for European countries. We could equally apply this to the map for England alone: I've made a first stab at creating an England-within-the-UK map for this page, though I note there are questions about the scale. More than happy for anyone to revert this if they feel it inappropriate; please comment at the link above if you have time. JamesAVD 12:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC) England is as big as Alabama.

Lets make http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Europe_location_ENG.png the offical map? Much better than the current one. The Red Roost3r 23:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Whilst this article has improved somewhat over the last few months, it is still very, very bad. Articles such as our neighbours Scotland and France, and further places such as Japan, and even Bangladesh are vastly superior articles. Certain settlements are also better than England, such as New York City; this is the standard we should be aiming for.

We really need a push from the editting community to bring the England article (and it's daughter articles) upto scratch (something which Scotland has done very well).

There are still basic pieces of info which are needing citation such as England's etymology, and alot of the prose has been hijacked for unencyclopedic means.

If no-one objects, I think that one of the following tags should be provisionally added to the top of the article:

Thoughts/agreement/objections? Jhamez84 13:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Further to this, I am considering founding a WPE, in an effort to mimic the success of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland. Again I'm asking for thoughts. Jhamez84 13:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Go for it; I'm afraid I've lost a lot of interest in contributing to this page but I do agree that it needs a lot of cleaning up. Robdurbar 09:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've set up a WPE, at my userpage for now, but the project page needs polishing up. Feel free to edit it, probably along the lines of Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland. Thanks, RHB 23:08, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Education

I've done a basic summary of the article at Education in England, found on the UK page, but it is by no means complete or well-written. Anyone care to have a crack at it? Thanks RHB 22:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

For reference, Scotland's section is here]. And its big RHB 22:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Citing My Sources- Author

How do I find out who wrote this article? I need to cite my sources. ---Nicole McInyre 11-25-06

No individual wrote it - that's the nature of Wikipedia. If I were you I would just cite Wikipedia. If you want to see who contributed to the article click on the History tab, but most won't have given their real names, anyway. Barnabypage 10:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Border country, a hive of scum and villainy

Border country currently contains the line "This made the Borders into a hive of thieves, outlaws, robbers, cattle plunderers, and the like." - 201.51.221.66 17:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this a problem? Sounds fairly accurate to me (speaking as someone who comes of a Borders family). Jshiell 11:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Nation

The greatest nation in the world. That pretty much sums it all up.

I make no apologies for being pedantic, but England is not a Nation - the English are a nation, as the word nation refers to people, not land. England is a country, or (constituent country). With the opening line stating England is a nation, I feel somewhat embarrassed at the level of literacy our nation are convaying on the international scene. This needs changing. Jhamez84 14:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

is convEying Notreallydavid 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont think its pedantic. There is a certain discrepancy in the way in which the terms "nation" or "country" are understood internationally and how they are used within the UK to refer to Scotland, England, Wales etc all of which are really regions within a country - country usually being synonymous with Nation-state. I cannot imagine that many, if any, of those who so frequently insist that England is a nation would attribute the same status to Texas or Bavaria - both of which have more recent status as a sovereign state while currently forming merely a part of a greater nation-state. siarach 14:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the contact, I've since found a (governmental) source which outlines that England is a country... it's just within another country. Thanks again however, Jhamez84 22:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

This has been a long-running debate on Wikipedia carried out on pages like this one and United Kingdom. Actually, in international law (for example at the UN) "England" meaning the traditional country of England (eg, not Scotland, Wales, or any part of Ireland) is not a country in the sense of international recognition or law now. It is however traditionally identified as a country and hence the oft-confused nature of international nomenclature, where many people, particularly in the US, interchangeably use the words "England", "Britain" and the "UK" with only a vague sense of exactly what each means, but probably all meaning (nowadays) the UK. The truth is that England is a predecessor "old core" nation of a medieval empire "Greater England" which conquered Scotland and Wales and became Great Britain which later transmuted into modern times into the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland to give it the proper UN name.

Perhaps a good foreign analogue for this is Russia, which has had many meanings over the centuries but during Soviet times was often called "Russia" meaning the official UN state of the Soviet Union covering many other "countries" - with "Russia" just being one of them. MarkThomas 23:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

England did not conquer Scotland. siarach 12:38, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Technically, agreed, as it was originally merged by the first Act of Union, but subsequently after the Battle of Culloden Cumberland and his army go into Scotland and effectively occupy and oppress the highlands in particular. The British imperial ruling class of the 19th century certainly regarded Scotland, and treated it, as just another colony. MarkThomas 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

POV. Culloden was the culmination of a British civil war and that battle in particular was fought by a majority of Scots on both sides. Your last statement is untrue although perhaps has some legitimacy with regard to specific Highland/Island regions. Even so the fact remains that England did no conquer Scotland anymore than Scotland conquered England - although given the fact that England ceased to exist under the Scottish royal family in 1707 and that the Scots were disproportionateyl over represented in the new British parliament one could quite happily put forward the latter view ( although i would not). The simple, irrefutable, truth is that in 1707 both England and Scotland ceased to exist as sovereign-states they both merged to form Great Britain. Any other view on the event, such as your own "conquered Scotland..." is simply POV and no supported by the facts. siarach 13:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

You use POV like a dirty word Siarach but it isn't! It's just an opinion, but one borne out by some facts although I won't waste time getting bogged down with it by attempting changes to the article. I was just making a comment above. However, despite your "POV" blunt accusation, I note that you then go on to partly agree with me about Cumberland! Also note Queen Victoria's attitude to the Scots, the Clearances, absentee British landlords, the lowly role of Scottish working class in relation to the English - I could go on. It's difficult not to at least partly agree that England has played an oppressor role towards Scotland, otherwise why the cultural significance of that view, the success of Braveheart the movie, etc, etc? MarkThomas 17:44, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Supposed attitudes following 1707 are irrelevant - the facts surrounding the union are perfectly clear and are not affected by subjective interpretation. siarach 20:20, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Very many historians don't agree with you An Siarach that the facts are so clear-cut. Your fundamentalist view on this is itself POV. I can write clipped abrupt accusatory sentences as well. :-) MarkThomas 20:59, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

My views are a reflection of nothing more than the pure facts, untainted by subjective interpretation or wishful thinking as yours are. Scotland and England were two independent nations which merged in 1707 to form Great Britain - this is fact, your views are not. siarach 22:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

So are you completely certain that 1707 was a voluntary act by the Scottish nation then? MarkThomas 22:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

For example, to quote from the Wikipedia page on the subject:

The Acts of Union were far from universally popular in Scotland, particularly amongst the general population. Many petitions were sent to the Scottish Parliament against union, and there were massive protests in Edinburgh and several other Scottish towns on the day it was passed [citation needed], as threats of widespread civil unrest resulted in the imposition of martial law by the Parliament. Sir George Lockhart of Carnwath, a Jacobite and the only member of the Scottish negotiating team who was not pro-incorporation, noted that `The whole nation appears against the Union'. Sir John Clerk of Penicuik, an ardent pro-unionist and Union negotiator, observed that the treaty was `contrary to the inclinations of at least three-fourths of the Kingdom'. Public opinion against the Treaty as it passed through the Scottish Parliament was voiced through petitions from Scottish localities. Anti-union petitions were received from shires, burghs, presbyteries and parishes. The Convention of Royal Burghs also petitioned against the Union and not one petition in favour of an incorporating union was received by Parliament. On the day the treaty was signed, the carilloner in St Giles Cathedral, Edinburgh, rang the bells in the tune "Why should I be so sad on my wedding day?"[2]

MarkThomas 22:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I quote from An Siarach himself: Your last statement is untrue although perhaps has some legitimacy with regard to specific Highland/Island regions. - does this cast light on An Siarach's ringing certainties?! MarkThomas 22:17, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

No more than it was by the English nation but then that is hardly surprising given the lack of popular democracy at the time. Both parliaments agreed to the union and thus Great Britain was formed. As ive already pointed out the facts concerning the union and subjective interpretations of one nation conquering the other are quite seperate. You can choose to interpet the union any way you wish but the objective fact remains, as ive repeatedly pointed out, that Great Britain was formed by the merging of two nations not by the conquest of one by the other. siarach 22:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

As to your quoting of me i agreed with the possibility of the type of attitude you mentioned but again as ive previously pointed out any attitudes which may have come into being or been present following the union are utterly irrelevant with regards to what the union itself was which was not by any reasonable, objective, stretch of the imagination a conquest of one nation by the other. Ive said it before, il say it again, the facts could not be clearer. The union of parliaments was accepted by both that of Scotland and of England. The creation of Great Britain was voluntary both by Scotland and by England. Attempting to question the legitimacy of the union by bringing innapropriate, and anachronistic, modern concepts of popular democracy and the like only serve to underline how irredeemably subjective your pov on the matter is and particularly so given that the topic is not one which is clouded in any amount of ambiguity or mystery ( regardless of how much certain nationalists might wish it were so). siarach 22:27, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing that the acts of union took place. What's being discussed here is the concept of "conquest" - I agree that means military takeover, but as discussed above, isn't that exactly what followed Culloden? You take an overly simplistic view. 1707 was if not a direct military conquest, very much a purchase of Scotland's aristocracy by the English. If you don't agree, you need to go and fundamentally alter the pages on that. Bet you get short shrift if you try! The fact is that I don't disagree that we English didn't "conquer" you Scots in 1707 but we did plenty of other times. Once you've been hammered enough, it's easier to give in and sign a piece of paper. Scotland was hardly a free agent in the "merger" and the "United Kingdom" has always been a bit of an English propaganda item. And it's rubbish to imply that this is just my personal POV - very many have said so. I think in fact you have a (stroppily defended) POV which is that Scotland was a totally free agent that somehow was never subjugated. This is not the view many people have. Wikipedia should reflect that. Nationalist sentiment is not good guidance for objective history writing. MarkThomas 22:57, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

You raise nothing which i havent already dealt with in previous comments or which is not ultimately self defeating in being demonstrably untrue and illustrative of a subjective, nationalistic, take on history such as "we English didn't "conquer" you Scots in 1707 but we did plenty of other times". Your last statement is significant and one which i happily direct, in a more pertinent direction, back at you. "Nationalist sentiment is not good guidance for objective history writing. " Your above comments are motivated more by the former factor and are far from qualifying as the latter. siarach 23:51, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Scotland was conquered post-Culloden and also it was already a subjected nation with a corrupt ruling class easily out-manouvered and purchased by the English ruling class in 1707. This isn't just my POV, many Scottish and English historians think the same. MarkThomas 07:42, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I really should resist given that ive already pointed out the flaws in your arguments but your culloden argument is so inherently flawed i simply cannot. Scotland had not existed for some 38 years by the time of Culloden and it takes a considerable stretch of a determinedly subjective imagination to look at the occupation of the Scottish highlands by Scottish soldiers of the British army in the aftermath of a British civil war fought between two royal families differentiated by religion as a supposed "conquest". Quite how any event or factor like Culloden or Queen Victorias supposed attitude can retrospectively confer the status of conquered nation upon Scotland despite the reality of 1707 is beyond me and is really quite detached from any rational objective approach to history. siarach 08:47, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Your POV An Siarach. Scotland is a property of England. MarkThomas 09:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

And so it happens - the inevitable switch from the trumpeting of a POV to simple trolling when faced with simple, objective facts which cannot be countered. You have undermined your credibility in quite impressive fashion and i consider that an end to the matter. siarach 13:26, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Nah, just couldn't be bothered to persist trying to have an intelligent conversation about something you visibly don't want to have - eg, if Scotland really freely entered into the Act of Union or was in fact just manouvered into it by dominating England. You simply deny that and go all accusatory if I bring it up, yet very many people believe Scotland was essentially seized by England regardless of the mere legalisms you trumpet. I think you have a deeply held personal POV that Scotland has always been an equal partner, but this is something few others would agree with. Stand by for the immediate mindless accusatory brainstorm that inevitably follows this, pretending to be An Siarach's thought processes. It clearly isn't worth attempting a sensible conversation with you about this. MarkThomas 20:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow - this one dragged on. Sorry Mark, don't agree with you. Reading over what you're saying makes this look like Scottish Nationalist propaganda, in the sense of the Scots justifying why they joined the Union (we didn't do it voluntarily - we were forced - when Scottish aristocracy really screwed over the Scots). This kind of re-writing of history usually serves to just cool English/Scottish relations to push forward for the ultimate goal. Inedpendence.

Let's not forget it was Scotland's king who unified the crowns(eventually) and that ironically, I would say that Scotland currently rules England. That's another whole political hotbed... ;-)White43 12:03, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Siarach. 'Conquest' in its normal sense requires military force, and also the lack of choice for the victim. Neither of these elements were present in 1707. The Parliament of Scotland made a choice. And to say that Culloden resulted in a later 'conquest' strips the word of any sensible meaning. One might as well say that the Young Pretender 'conquered' the north of England before rapidly retreating. (I probably shouldn't say this, but the current nationwide fit of pique that seems likely to stop all celebrations of the 1707 Union saddens me greatly. Angel of Islington 16.28, 12 January 2007 (NZT)

Celtic Britain?

I took the quote someone had about Tacitus' observations from the prehistoric section and put them into a section called Celtic Britain,
Is there not a period of time that should be called this? as opposed to going from prehistoric times to the Roman era,
Please add to this section,
Or if I am crazy, please re-edit —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spettro9 (talk • contribs) 06:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

While I agree that there was a Celtic period, this 'quote' from Tacitus appears not only to be irrelevent to the article but also seems to be someones generalised impression from reading the Annuals of Tacitus rather than a direct quote. I think it should be deleted Mighty Antar 21:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

National Anthem

There seems to be an inconsistency regarding England's national anthem. The infobox has it as "God Save The Queen/King", while the "National Anthem" section states that "England does not have an official designated national anthem". Should the infobox not state "none"?--Michig 19:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I think so. If it is not an 'official designated national anthem' then the infobox should say 'none'. 85.12.80.128 11:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference could be made instead to the 'unofficial' national anthem of the Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 which is played at sporting events such as the Commonwealth Games where England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland compete as separate teams. Aegirthor 01:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Or Land of Hope and Glory at Rugby? It is in danger of getting messy.--Regan123 01:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Land of Hope and Glory is Pomp and Circumstance March No.1 - therefore, no mess. Aegirthor 01:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Except Wikipedia treats them as two seperate articles, Land having the music recycled as it says. Regan123 03:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

So refer to it as Land of Hope and Glory (Music: Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1) Surely there's a convention for referring to similar situations? Aegirthor 11:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Economics

Is England really still big in textiles and shipbuilding? Notreallydavid 16:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No! I've modified this segment - please review. Thanks. MarkThomas 13:03, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Population below poverty line

Population below poverty line 17% (2002 est.) Statistically, Britain is the worst place in the major industrialised nations to be a child, according to a new report produced by Unicef.

Why is this subject avoided ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.9.136.27 (talk) 05:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

That's a subject for a page on the United Kingdom rather than one of its constituent parts. 125.239.215.40 09:02, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Flag_of_England_(bordered).svg —vs— Image:Flag_of_England.svg

Hi - I've been trying to go through various articles and (mainly) templates to see if Image:Flag_of_England_(bordered).svg should replace Image:Flag_of_England.svg - it's very time-consuming as I don't have any special software like popups or know how to program a bot. If anyone does, please could you give me a hand - thanks!! — superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 01:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

DONE — superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Celtic England!??!?!?

There was no such thing. Celtic Britain maybe, but this just looks all wrong. A header and one sentence. England was formed by Anglo-Saxons. Sure, Romano-Britons remained, but it was an Anglo-Saxon overlordship. There was never a Celtic England - this implies England existed as a Celtic state. This should just be removed.White43 11:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

so you're saying that the celts 'exclusively' lived in scotland wales and ireland and never dared venture over the border into england?

Definition of cities, debate?

I'm a bit perplexed by this paragraph under Geography:

The list of England's largest cities is much debated because in English the normal meaning of city is "a continuously built-up urban area"; these are hard to define and various other definitions are preferred by some people to boost the ranking of their own city. However, by any definition London is by far the largest English city and one of the largest and busiest cities in the world. Manchester and Birmingham now vie for second place. A number of other cities, mainly in central and northern England, are of substantial size and influence. These include: Leeds, Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, Bristol, Coventry, Leicester, Nottingham and Hull.

This is confusing and vague, and it implies there is some heated competition between British cities over which is biggest. The 'preferred by some people' is unsourced - I think there's a wiki-specific term for this kind of vague assertion. It doesn't matter what the definition of a city is in the English language as the only important definition here is that as defined by UK law and convention. Besides, there is already a good article on what consititutes a British city and there are two clear definitions;

1. It's been regarded as a city since 'time immemorial' usually because it contains a diocesian cathedral
2. It has been conferred city status by letters patent

Also, Birmingham is England's second largest city. By what definition would Manchester be considered bigger than Birmingham? According to this Birmingham is second with a population of 1,020,589, and Manchester is seventh (removing Edinburgh and Glasgow from the list, naturally) with 448,850. (Also, just look at the cities on Google Earth - Birmingham is vast)

The confusion about the size of Manchester is due, i think, to whether you include Greater Manchester or just the city of Manchester which is much smaller but even so I am very surprised that Manchester is 7th on that list I thought it was third largest. can anyone find another source to confirm this? --Cap 11:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Some mention needs to be made of London's status as a global city as well.

I thought I'd get some feedback on this before ploughing in with an edit, just in case there has been a massive debate on this. I can't see that there has though.

Aegirthor 00:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The West Midlands conurbation is vast, but it isn't all Birmingham. Solihull residents, for example, don't consider themselves to live in Birmingham, and officially they don't. Since we need to be encyclopaedic, surely the only approach when discussing 'cities' is to use official definitions of cities and official city populations, rather than using 'urban area' figures, which could/should be discussed separately.--Michig 11:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, so we just need to get some official UK Government figures for the populations and areas. I'm sure there around somewhere on the Home Office site. Well, they should be. Still, the paragraph needs a total rewrite as it's nowhere near encyclopaedic. I'll post figures if/when I find them... Aegirthor 11:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a long running debate exhaustively analysed for example at Talk:Birmingham, Talk:Manchester and at Second city of the United Kingdom where a small group of pro-Birmingham editors persistently refuse to allow an NPOV edit of the page. The fact is that there is very considerable debate about the pecking order of cities in Britain. The simplistic population count showing Manchester 7th quoted above is a classic example of the absurd over-simplification involved in going on local authority boundary counts, which is the basis of that calculation. Many do believe (particularly the UK government and public authorities as well as many international organisations and companies) that Manchester is Britain's second city. There are many criteria for evaluating second city status, and these include conurbation population, business and commercial significance, numbers of public and private organisational headquarters, transport networks, universities, cultural centres, media outlets and other criteria besides. The main challenges in the pecking order in Britain are for second place after London (contenders: Manchester, Birmingham and possibly Glasgow), third place (contenders: Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham) and fourth (Leeds, Edinburgh, Bristol, Glasgow). MarkThomas 12:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

OK, that clarifies things a bit! Since mention of cities and urbanisation is important in any section on geography, shouldn't it be rewritten in a way to avoid these contentious issues? How much of England is considered an 'urban area'? That should be included, along with the ratio of rural to urban dwellers. The whole 'pecking order' debate can be avoided by referring to England's largest cities as, "England's largest cities and urban areas include [list in alphabetical order]" I don't think that the pecking order is a vital enough piece of information to hijack any mention of urbanisation in England. Aegirthor 23:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I hate to point this out, but the "largest cities" depends completely on whether you're talking about Local Authority populations or urban sub-area populations. For example, the local authority area City of Leeds has over 700,000 people within and is the second largest English local authority, but includes large rural areas and other towns that quite definitely aren't Leeds. Leeds, the urban sub-area, on the other hand has a population of about 450,000. You have the age-old "London" quandary, as the City of London local authority is tiny (so to say by any definition London is by far the largest English city is false if you select local authority areas) and the daftness that is the large Boroughs of Kirklees, East Riding of Yorkshire, Metropolitan Borough of Wirral and Sandwell - none of whom are cities or towns in any meaningful sense; whilst local authorities such as Metropolitan Borough of Dudley, Metropolitan Borough of Wigan, City of Wakefield and others are agglomerations of towns that are simply named after the largest settlement within.

It's also not true to say that continuously built-up urban areas are hard to define. The ONS defines exactly such a thing - they're Urban Sub-Areas. The list of these can be found at List of English cities by population. That list should be compared to List of English districts by population to gain a better understanding of the issues at stake.

The largest 15 Urban Sub-Areas are:

• London
• Birmingham
• Liverpool
• Leeds
• Sheffield
• Bristol
• Manchester
• Leicester
• Coventry
• Kingston upon Hull
• Bradford
• Stoke-on-Trent
• Wolverhampton
• Nottingham
• Plymouth

The largest 15 Local Authority areas are:

• Birmingham
• City of Leeds
• Sheffield
• City of Bradford
• Liverpool
• Manchester
• Bristol
• Kirklees
• Croydon (London Borough)
• Barnet (London Borough)
• East Riding of Yorkshire
• City of Wakefield
• Metropolitan Borough of Wirral
• Metropolitan Borough of Wigan
• Metropolitan Borough of Dudley

I know this all muddies the waters, but hopefully the above should show the extent of the problem, on a purely population size basis. Fingerpuppet 12:19, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

England IS NOT a country

England is a province in Great Britain, not a country. http://geography.about.com/od/politicalgeography/a/englandnot.htm

you are a dickhead, i bet you don't even live here

Okay, whatever. I think a few million people will disagree with you. You've clearly not read this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country

It's not a province, it's a former Kingdom. It's a constituent country now. White43 21:02, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's interesting though because the article calls it a "country" and as we know that tends to imply sovereign state which it of course isn't. MarkThomas 21:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

England is NOT sovereign, so it should NOT be called a country. Why is this a problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.58.190.177 (talk • contribs)

If it's not a country then it doesn't have a capital city so London needs revising. Aroberts 10:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

In what way aroberts? London does make it fairly clear that it's a de-facto capital and has never been formally announced as capital city. This belongs to the mists of the British "constitution"al "arrangements". :-)

Actually, I stand corrected - just checked and that's what it used to say - now it boldly claims in the first line that London is the capital city of England and the UK. Whilst this is of course traditionally correct, it isn't technically - England is not a country in the modern since so it has no constitutional capital - the other capitals, Cardiff and Edinburgh have a similar "traditional capital" status. MarkThomas 11:00, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

But England is a country - that's how the word "country" is used. A country does not have to be a sovereign entity, otherwise Scotland wouldn't be a country either. In any case, since England comprises 83 percent of the population of the UK, which it completely dominates, it seems a bit disingenuous to say that it isn't sovereign. TharkunColl 10:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Read Country - quite true that the concept of "country" does not always imply current sovereignty, but sovereignty is more of a legal international concept than country, and by international legal standards, Scotland, Wales and England are not sovereign. The UK is the sovereign entity. "Disingenuity" has nothing to do with it. MarkThomas 11:02, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

England is not a country, and it shouldn't be called one here. There has to be a way to change that first sentence. How about "England (pronounced IPA: /ˈɪŋglənd/) is an area in north-west Europe and is the largest and most populous constituent country". That sounds more honest and less redundant. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.58.190.177 (talk) 20:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

          how about no? how about, england is a country.

Interesting. A slight improvement on that would be England (pronounced IPA: /ˈɪŋglənd/) is an historic nation-state and (since 1707) constituent country of the United Kingdom and is the largest and most populous constituent country? I think most people know it's in NW Europe and it has the locator map in the infobox to help. We should also emphasise the historic nature of England as a former national state. MarkThomas 21:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I like that, but could we replace nation-state with sovereign nation which is perhaps a touch more specific? --Regan123 21:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Country n. Region; territory of nation. * Nation n. Society united under one government in a State. (Oxford dictionary). Of course England is a Country. 80.192.242.187 23:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

Could England, say, switch to the Euro whilst the remaining part of the U.K. stay with the Pound? If it was a sovereign nation it could. As it isn't, this is an impossibility. Does england vote in any world governing bodies like, oh, I don't know, the United Nations? No, of course not. It would be like Utah decidng to go it alone and design their own money. England may be a former country, but is certainly not one any more.

Insisting that England is a "country" seems like a definite anglophile POV statement. Lighten up...

This whole argument fundamentally ignores the difference between a sovereign and non-sovereign country. It is is the latter case which applies here - at least three of the "constituent countries" of the UK are commonly considered to be (non-sovereign) countries. As to the "world governing bodies" question, I can immediately think of the International Football Association Board, which determines the rules of football ("soccer" to some), where England, Scotland, Wales, and (Northern) Ireland each have 1 vote, and FIFA, representing the other 200-odd football-playing countries of the world, has 4 votes. -- Arwel (talk) 00:58, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually I don't we are ignoring that point Arwel, that's what the debate above centres on. We really do need a new opening sentence. At the moment it is too definite and does not make the sovereignty issue or the historic nation/sovereign state issue clear. MarkThomas 01:09, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Football is so trivial a matter, that it plays no part in this discussion. Great Britain (United Kingdom) is made up of four countries, England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. And London is NOT the largest city in England, like it says in the article. 80.192.242.187 01:47, 21 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

Might be worth you having a read through British Isles (terminology) - the comment above and your recent edit to the article leaves me believing you're not aware of the differences between the terms United Kingdom and Great Britain... Ta/wangi 01:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain hence the sovereign state's name being United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. And London is the biggest city - the City of London is not however. They are two very different things. --Regan123 02:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've just read about it and I am wrong in what I thought! I understood Ireland to have been part of Great Britain and that Northern Ireland had remained so after the separation. You learn something new every day! Whatever will they think of next? 80.192.242.187 02:25, 21 January 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

That's why we have British Isles (terminology). There's quite a long precedent on England, Wales and Scotland for calling them all 'country'. The thing is, the term 'country' is ambiguos, compared to the terms nation/(sovereign) state which are well defined (if misused). Now many definitions can be found to contradict these but they ARE WRONG. This is taken from this book which I own. I'll try and find an online source too. Anyway, according to social sciences - "nation" is a group of people with a shared history and identity based on either ethnic or civic ties; "(sovereign) state" is a collection of institutions that together control a given territory; "country" is a rather vague term referring to the land and peoples of either a nation or a state.

So England=coutnry. The point is, its an unspecific term. Robdurbar 11:52, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

In the commonwealth games england ,scotland,wales and even the isle of man compete seperately and the term used is nations, so you could say england is a nation of the united kingdom.

No! Because a nation is a group of people, not a division of land. It might be worth mentioning that every other respected/major encyclopedia article about England opens with the fact that it is a constituent country of the UK. This was also referenced some time ago in this article and should not have been altered. It is the most technically accurate, and verifiable, (not to mention true), that England is a constituent country. 81.132.6.112 01:47, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The article contains a link to constituent country surely that explains the technicalities.

I just changed the article this morning to emphasis that England is a constituent country, and someone changed it back to saying that it is a country! This really needs to be sorted out because most people's interpretation of country is a sovereign state, which England is not. We have already established that the term country is ambiguous, but not everyone understands the differention between nation, nation state, sovereign state and country; to most people these 4 terms mean the same thing, but during the course of this discussion we have established that they're not. So, rather than argue about what a country really is, let's use a layman explanation of what a country is, then determine if England fits that description. If this means that England is a 'country', then so be it, but I don't think this will end unless we all agree one way or the other. Sjetha 00:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

One of the sources of the United Kingdom article quotes the title of a page on the 10 Downing Stree website: Countries within a country, which would suggest that each Constituent country is exactly that exist within a sovereign nation, the United Kingdom. I agree completely that England should be referred to as a constituent country, not merely a country. If you find another official source (i.e. on a government website or the EU) that says otherwise, then maybe we need to reconsider. --Jatkins 14:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Scotland

I've noticed on the Scotland article editors won't allow the fact box map of Scotland to display the rest of the UK in a shaded colour, making Scotland seem like a separate country outside of the UK. Can editors from here who support union the UK please help make sure that UK country fact boxes keep the rest of the UK shaded in a lighter colour especially with how popular Wikipedia is on the internet now and at a crucial time for union of the UK it's silly and dangerous to the UK for people to push separatist POV on UK articles unless people want to see the future of the UK become like that of the Balkans. Please help keep the UK together for everyone's sakes.

The maps show locations, not connections or affiliations. (One might as well argue that the rest of the EU should be shown in yet another shaded colour.) Also, introducing intermediate levels of colouring could be confusing - there will be Wikipedia readers who don't have the faintest idea where Scotland is, and a simple distinction between Scotland and not-Scotland is the best way to illustrate it for them. Barnabypage 13:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Where in the policies of Wikipedia does it say factbox maps are only for simple location and not for connection or affiliation? The only guidance I can find, on infoboxes generally, says that is exactly what they are for. MarkThomas 15:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Military of England

I suggest a section be included in the article on the military of England like the Scotland article has. Also a new article on the military of England should be created. Somethingoranother 13:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, and where is the information on tourist locations that are popular?--I'll bring the food (Talk - Contribs - My Watchlist) 15:28, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I am against allowing the natural rivalry between Scotland and England to escalate into trying to make each article better than the other. We are not here to outdo each other. Admins have been informed of my concerns of this "wiki-war".Gavin Scott 21:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The England Map on the England page is wrong - its a UK map.

The "England" Map on the England page is wrong?, A UK map is shown, not map of England. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.35.55.16 (talk) 17:57, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Err. This map? [1] That's definitely England, there in green. I'd recognise it anywhere. --Khendon 21:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Country

I have changed the first sentence of this page from 'country' to 'entity', as contrary to popular belief England is an entity, as part of the UK and is in fact not a country alone. --Ash online 12:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted this. This is well trod territory with regards this and other UK articles. The current lead to this article is the result of much discussion and consensus building and shouldn't be changed without discussion. The use of the word country does not imply sovereignty (which is I think what you're driving at here - the UK is the only soverigh country). Take a look at the definintion at Country and Constituent country which explain this difference more clearly. Also take a look at the definition on the government Number 10 webpage [2] which describes constitutent country (countries within country).Mammal4 12:57, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying, and you are correct, however, England is best described as an entity of the UK, since the act of union between England & Scotland in 1707. --Ash online 15:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. Entity is not the best word to use to describe England as it isn't used in common palance to describe geography and isn't going to be understandable to the majority of casual readers. The term country on the other hand, whilst often misused in everyday speech is a term familiar to all and the suble shades of its meaning are well described on wikipedia such that readers can easily find out what the specific geographical/historical/political breakdown of the UK is.

It seems that you are new to editing wikipedia, so maybe are aware of how consensus is built on an article. Generally on established articles such as this it is customary to post suggested changes on the discussion page first and form a consensus opinion especially where changes to the lead section are concerned, so as to avoid an edit war. It is often likley that the specific wording has undergone much discussion/revision by a succession of editors and the result reached through a group decision, and is not the result of a signle careless uninformed edit. I will drop a set of guidelines on your userpage when I have a moment. Take care Mammal4 16:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Flags

Further to the above, I would also like the template, which appears on many pages, such as Market Deeping to be changed, so that it shows the Union flag at the bottom and not St George's cross. Otherwise there is no mention on any of the pages that feature that table that they are part of the UK, as their country, and not England. --Ash online 16:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point. It seems inconsistent to show the map of the UK and the flag of England in the same template. This is the sort of thing that leads to England/UK confusion. In order to avoid this confusion, the UK map should be changed to an England one, or the England flag should be changed to a UK one. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

In order that this be effective, all UK towns would have to the Union Flag in my view. However, it is unlikely that Scots would put up with that, so it looks as though we're going to have to change the map, much to my malcontentedness! Lofty 16:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

just another point...should this discussion be in the talk of Template:Infobox England place —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lofty (talk • contribs) 16:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC).

New Table

I would like to start a debate regarding the use of a new template on various UK settlement pages, to include the union flag at the bottom, unlike the English version (Template:Infobox England place) in the hope that it will increase public awareness of the difference between England and Britain. In order to do this a concensus is necessary and I would therefore appreciate any possible support. A copy of this template can be seen on the Market Deeping page or here is the template itself Template:Infobox England place with UK flag for UK map. Many thanks. --Ash online 17:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

We have templates for England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. I'm not aware of any settlements within the United Kingdom that don't come under one of those categories. Average Earthman 17:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that sticking a union flag on the bottom will particularly help, although in the previously mentioned context of the UK map with a St George's Cross I must agree that the new template Template:Infobox England place with UK flag for UK map makes more sense. it does not make sense to have the place in a UK context, with the St george's flag. Unfortunately it does remove my beloved wiki continuity. Lofty 17:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The most appropriate place for a discussion is probably at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography as this page seems to be watched by the broadest section of UK geography editors Mammal4 08:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Without expressing any view on the matter, I'd just like to point out that Template:Infobox England place with UK flag for UK map has been nominated for deletion. If you wish yo comment on this nomination, go to the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page.  DDStretch  (talk) 17:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Galery

This article is already too long, do we really need this gallery section? What purpose does it serve? You would need hundreds of pictures to show even a snapshot of England. I will remove it tommorow if nobody objects. Luke C 12:57, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I object. The gallery is an increasingly common feature of Wikipedia; For ne it served to stop the main text becoming overpopulated with images, helped to link to articles that otherwise would not be, and help to establish a visual context for readers who may be impaired or of low learning ability (dyslexics, young children, non-English speakers).

I'm going to re-instate the gallery on these grounds. Jhamez84 03:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Template for country articles

There is a recommended template on WP:WPC, where the sections go as follows:

Each section should have a {{main}} below the heading.

The sections are:

• History - A brief outline of the major events in the country's history (about 4 to 6 paragraphs should do), including at least a paragraph on the current events going on there. Link to "History of X".
• Politics - Short overview of the current governmental system, possibly previous forms, some short notes on the parliament. Link to article "Politics of X", and also to "Foreign relations of X".
• (Subdivisions) - Quick overview of the administrative subdivisions of the country. Name the section after the first level of subdivisions (e.g. provinces, states, departments, etc.) and give the English name. Also include overseas possessions. Link to "(subdivisions) of X". This section could also include an overview map of the country. The CIA World Factbook Maps could be used here, but other sources are available.
• Geography - Quick description of the country's main features, climate, . Include link to "Geography of X".
• Economy - Something brief about the country's economy, major industries, bit of economic history, major trade partners, a tad comparison etc. Link to "Economy of X".
• Demographics - Mention the languages spoken, the major religions, some well known properties of the people of X, by which they are known. Link to article "Demographics of X".
• Culture - Give a short summary of the country's specific forms of art (anything from painting to film) and its best known artists. Link to article "Culture of X".
• Miscellaneous topics - a list of links to all the other topics closely related to the country. The four other default CIA subpages should be listed here (communications, transportation, military, foreign relations)
• External links - Links to (official) websites about the country.

Whats the general opinion and moving to this? I think it would cut the article greatly without losing any real content - the history section goes into a fair amount of detail for example, as do other sections. Thanks, RHB ^{Talk - Edits} 20:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone have an opinion on this? RHB ^{Talk - Edits} 01:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I remember editting the England article to conform more with this template when I gave it an overhall last year. I think the article conforms to this guide for the mostpart, but may need a tweak and prune here and there.

My main concerns are the lead section (it is often hijacked by new or anon editors who contribute inappropriate content), the Politics section (it has an overbearing amount of content on English independance and reads as if it is compromised), and the Culture section (which was pathetic in the summertime, but has now overmatured and needs some pruning back.

I think we could do with some leadership to help maintain the England article a little better, and direct new contributions to sister articles such as History of England, Culture of England, Music of England etc. This is something Scotland has been very successful at achieveing.

Bangladesh is a featured country article which may be useful to use as an example. Jhamez84 23:12, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Isle of Man and Channel Islands

Both of these are Crown dependencies that is dependencies of the Crown the clue is in the name, they are nothing to do with england and Somethingoranother could you provide a source stating that England accounts for 98% of the UKs GDP --Barry talk 23:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I've left a comment at Somethingoranother's talk page. Please monitor contributions. Jhamez84 23:57, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps if you don't believe that England accounts for 98% of the UK's GDP you should try working it out for yourself... Somethingoranother 23:59, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Anti England sentiment by editors

I have noticed that a lot of information on this article is regularly being deleted particularly any which presents England in a positive sence. I have also noticed that a lot of this information being deleted on a regular basis is done so by editors who on their talk pages have very pro Celtic statements and their contributions list shows they regularly contribute to Cetlic related articles, which I checked were always contributed to in a positive manner in contrast to their negitive edits of England related articles. Can this Anti-England sentiment from what looks like users who are from Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and Celtic sympathizers in the USA please be stopped and if needs be reported so that further damage to this article cannot be allowed to continue. I fear if left to their own devices they'll cut this article down to nothing more than a stub. Somethingoranother 00:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Such concerns deserve to be taken seriously; but I've just taken a look at some of the back-and-forth in the page's history and I have to say the main difference between your versions and the responses to them by other editors has not been pro- or anti-England POV: the main difference has been encyclopedicity. We are all striving to write something which seems like something a serious and responsible encyclopedia would write. I'm an ardent Anglophile and I'm quite satisfied, looking at most of the reversions your edits have suffered, that their editors were wearing good-faith 'make the wikipedia better' hats, nothing more sinister. Doops | talk 05:09, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I also echo these sentiments. I'm an Anglophile, and have contributed much to get the article upto scratch, but there are strict policies with regards to content inclusion which we all must adhere to. With regards to the text both under this heading, and the above heading, perhaps it may be useful to ask for a peer review to help move the article forwards? Jhamez84 13:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

English did not originate in England. The Anglo-Saxons brought it to the whole east-coast of Britain. In fact, in Aberdeenshire, there is a dialect spoken there called 'Doric' which is said to be the closest dialect in the UK to how the Anglo-Saxons originally would have spoken.

What a random (and wrong) statement! First off, the Anglo Saxons were not one people (the name is a bit of a give away to start with) and spoke a raft of different Germanic language dialects, not English. Secondly, English as we now know it developed from these dialects in England over the subsequent centuries whilst also taking influences from Norse languages, Norman French and the indiginous celtic languages; although related it is distinct from these Anglo Saxon languages. Saying that the Saxons brought English to England makes as much sense as saying we all really speak Proto-Indo-European from which all Indo-European languages are derivedMammal4 15:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

English people

Hello everyone. Was wondering if someone could explain this statement: "It is believed amongst English nationalist circles that the 'natural culture' of England is comprised of legacies of Brythonic tribes of Celts and Anglo-Saxons appearing in waves of gradual migration" Don't understand the inclusion of the word 'nationalist'- how does this interpretation of history/archeology justify the 'nationalist' tag? I gather that there are simply two competing theories in historian circles, and support of one or the other doesn't seem to me to have bearing on political orientation- have I missed something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atillashardermate (talk • contribs) 15:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC).

Agree - this smacks of attacking nationalists for the sake of it. The statement is fact, the English are a result of Anglo-Saxon and Brythonic tribes migrating and intermingling. White43 11:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

GDP and GNP figures for England

Could somebody supply a good reference for the GDP and GNP figures for England?

GDP ? Are you crazy ? The GDP of England means nothing, we should be more preoccupied about the inequality between the people in this country, and our 17% of 'under poverty line'. The UK has the worst rate of child poverty in the European Union – a third of Europe’s poorest children live in the UK.

Through the recent article history you can find this information was previously in the article:

GDP (PPP) 2006

- Total 	$ 1.8 trillion IMF 2006
- Per capita 	$ 35,300 IMF 2006

Now the article says this:

GDP (PPP) 2006 estimate

- Total 	$1.9 trillion (6th)
- Per capita 	$37,482 (5th)

And also adds this:

GDP (nominal) 2006 estimate

- Total 	$2.3 trillion (5th)
- Per capita 	$45,373 (7th)

Though it is far from clear why a nominal figure is at all useful.

Even the earlier "IMF" figures were not provided with an actual reference.

Additionally, the rankings in parenthesis seem misleading, linking as they do to tables of states and/or internationally recognised independent countries, and England is neither of those. When it says "5th" for GDP-PPP per capita, for example, it links to a table where Iceland, not England, is 5th. Robertbyrne 06:03, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

HDI

How come it says in the Infobox that England's HDI fell? I find this hard to believe considering almost all HDIs increase apart from extreme cases like Zimbabwe and North Korea. Could someone please change this. Userofwiki 06:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I checked the HDI for the UK and it also says 9.40 which is also the same figure given for the HDI of England but the difference is it says the UK's HDI increased. I think the HDI given for England isn't actually England's HDI and is taken from the UK's HDI. It seems to conflict that England's HDI says it fell. Userofwiki 06:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

---

London, Largest City in England?

The article states that London is, 'by any definition' Englands largest City. The City of London is clearly NOT the largest City in England. Greater London is NOT a City, as it does NOT have 'City Status'. Wikipedia has conflicting articles on this. Greater London article says Greater London is not a city, London article says City of London is one square mile, yet England article says London is Englands largest city. ? 80.192.242.187 21:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC) JemmyH.

Major city...

... is one of the three most major cities in the world alongside New York City and Tokyo [5] and is a Global City ...

First, this is useless information. Second, the 1991 article/book is a bit outdated for today's reality; and last what does major cities and Global city mean anyway? Why Paris, Sydney, São Paulo, Beijing, L.A., Rome, (and the list go on and on), is not included there? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.175.209.212 (talk) 12:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

have a look at Global city. People in the past have tried to categorise cities by importance, and grade them in some way. There is some stuff in this article about some of these different methods - global city is a term used within this type of study Mammal4 12:53, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

English law

Why is English law only mentioned in passing in this article? Surely the fact that English law played a key role in the history of law worldwide (eg. foundation of US law) is worth a little mention in the introduction, plus its own subsection? -- Mais oui! 11:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

ytgutbsyt

i wantedjust to tell that you need to translate this page in ewery languges that is in the world!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.110.11.158 (talk) 14:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC).

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• Avoid including galleries in articles, as per Wikipedia:Galleries. Common solutions to this problem include moving the gallery to a separate page, like Gallery of England.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 400 miles, use 400 miles, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 400 miles.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), when doing conversions, please use standard abbreviations: for example, miles -> mi, kilometers squared -> km², and pounds -> lb.^[?]
• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), please spell out source units of measurements in text; for example, the Moon is 380,000 kilometres (240,000 mi) from Earth.^[?] Specifically, an example is 38 km.
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• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]
• Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long- consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style.^[?]
• There are a few occurrences of weasel words in this article- please observe WP:AWT. Certain phrases should specify exactly who supports, considers, believes, etc., such a view.
  • it has been
  • arguably
  • might be weasel words, and should be provided with proper citations (if they already do, or are not weasel terms, please strike this comment).^[?]
• Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
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• Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, GazMan7 10:43, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Infobox flag straw poll

Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

i can see a typo

under the heading Anglo-Saxon England it says "mediaeval England" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.153.41.68 (talk) 00:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

British English spelling and usage is preferred in this article, as per the Manual of Style.

— superbfc [ talk | cont ] — 16:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

As has been said above, it is not an error. It is British English and as this article is about England it is perfectly acceptable to use it. Tangerines 23:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

ETHNICITY

why is it necessary to include ethnicity alongside the population when researching english towns and cities. It only appears to be on the english towns and for some reason not scottish, welsh, or irish let alone cities in places such as france and germany which are far more ethnically diverse than England. I just wish the government would stop promoting multiculturalism etc. as we are not the most multicultural place in europe yet propaganda wise it seems we are. Would someone please explain this for me. Thank you from England! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.154.66.62 (talk) 23:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

in and out of power

"the Kingdom of England would fall in and out of power between several West-Saxon and Danish kings." is unidiomatic. I'd rewrite it if I knew what it meant. Does it mean that the kingship of England was held by both west Saxon and Danish kings?