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== August 2009 ==
== August 2009 ==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mary Toft/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Lucy poems/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hepatorenal syndrome/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles Stewart (Canadian politician)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tropical Storm Faxai (2007)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Siward, Earl of Northumbria/archive1}}

Revision as of 02:00, 3 August 2009

August 2009

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [1].

Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907

Nominator(s): Crum375 (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The article went through FAC recently, where it was tweaked and improved with the much-appreciated help of several editors with FA expertise. Hopefully it is now ready. Thanks, Crum375 (talk) 20:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the comment and all the help. Regarding access dates, my own rule is to include accessdate on any online citation which is not a reliable news site. In the case of news sites, they have a publication date, and the main issue there (and elsewhere) is link rot, which is very frustrating. Almost every couple of days a link either dies or goes into a subscription-only mode. I have just re-run the link checker and fixed the broken links, so we are OK for the moment. Some links have been picked up by archive.org, but many haven't, so it's an ongoing battle. Thanks again, Crum375 (talk) 23:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I think this is a really nice article, I would be pleased to see it reach "featured article" status. Harlem675 08:15, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Nicely written. Just a few niggles:
  • "new owners/operators"—is there an alternative to the slash? I think MoS says to try to minimise, especially when it's not a toggle situation. There's another slashed couplet further down.
  • I hate them too, but I can't think of a way to get rid of them without either losing information (e.g. drop "operators"), or making it more cumbersome (e.g. "owners and operators"). Any suggestion is more than welcome. (The other instance further down is "passenger/journalist", and there is also one "and/or", for a total of three slashes in the main text.) Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"And" would surely be the answer. Would anyone thing owners and operators were different?Or simply "ExcelAir"? Tony (talk) 06:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think your last suggestion is best, since "and" makes a long sentence even longer. Using plain "ExcelAir", as you suggest, is also a compromise since it adds repetition and provides slightly less information, but on the whole it may be best, so I put it in. Crum375 (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I normally ask for items to be delinked, but here, BST could do with one, if there's a useful, focused page at hand.
  • BST is simply linked (to UTC-3) in the lead, for brevity. Then, when it first appears in the body, it is presented as "BST (Brazil Standard Time)". A footnote goes on to explain: "All times mentioned in this article are Brazil Standard Time, UTC-3, unless otherwise noted." All subsequent occurrences of BST are unlinked. Are you suggesting a different strategy? Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sure Tony (talk) 06:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am sorry for not following. Does "sure" mean the BST presentation/linking strategy is OK as it is, or do you think it needs modification? If the latter, can you elaborate? Crum375 (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have changed the first instance in the body to your order (acronym second). The problem with doing the full expansion in the lead is that the lead sentences are very complex already, and adding a full acronym expansion there with those extra words, for something which is of trivial significance, reduces legibility for no real gain. Instead, it's simply wiki-linked in that lead sentence, and has the full expansion (and an explanatory footnote) where it's first mentioned in the body, where there is more "space". But having said that, if others here think the full acronym should be expanded in the lead sentence, I'll defer to their judgment. Crum375 (talk) 21:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Embraer jet, despite sustaining serious damage to the left horizontal stabilizer and left winglet, was able to continue flying, though its autopilot disengaged and it required an unusual amount of force on the yoke to keep the wings level." Didn't like that sentence much: two contrastives in "despite" and "though". "sustaining" could be removed.
  • "Immediately after the Embraer's emergency landing at the Cachimbo air base, BAF and Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (ANAC) officials detained and interviewed its flight crew.[14] The officials also removed the two "black boxes"—Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Flight Data Recorder (FDR)—from the Embraer, and sent them to São José dos Campos, São Paulo, and eventually Ottawa, Canada, for analysis." But perhaps this? "Immediately after the Embraer's emergency landing at the Cachimbo air base, BAF and Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil (ANAC) officials detained and interviewed its flight crew,[14] and three days later removed the two "black boxes" (the Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder), sending them to São José dos Campos, São Paulo and eventually Ottawa, Canada, for analysis." Unsure. And possibly "later" instead of "eventually", which implies a delay.
  • I believe the Embraer's boxes were sent to São Paulo immediately, not after three days. I have changed it to the following, to eliminate the perception of a delay: "The officials also removed the two 'black boxes'—Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) and Flight Data Recorder (FDR)—from the Embraer, and sent them to São José dos Campos, São Paulo, and from there to Ottawa, Canada for analysis." Is it any better? Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • charged by Brazilian Federal Police with "endangering an aircraft", a charge that carries a penalty of ... — do check for repetitions like this; possibly ", which carries ..."?
  • Can you check that every abbreviation is used enough to bother the readers thus? I see that Cockpit Voice Recorder is spelled out after I've coded CVR from a previous section. Is it worth it?
  • I have removed the expanded form of CVR in the "Recommendation" section. In the case of other abbreviations, such as "FDR", they are defined not just for usage within the article text, but also for possible use inside the references or footnotes. Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "state of manufacture" × 2 in the same sentence. Please audit for this type of thing.
  • Here is the full sentence: The NTSB, in accordance with the provisions of ICAO Annex 13, participated in the investigation representing the state of manufacture of the Boeing, state of registry and operator of the Embraer, and state of manufacture of the Honeywell avionics equipment installed in both planes.[2] The goal of this paragraph is to explain the legal connections of the NTSB to the accident, prioritized by importance. We need to get across that the NTSB was legally the SOM of the Boeing, SOR of the Embraer and its operators, and SOM of the Honeywell avionics on both the Boeing and the Embraer. The connection to the two aircraft is mentioned first, because it is the most important, and within that, SOM is more important than SOR. Then the (less important) avionics is mentioned, which applies to both aircraft. If we somehow combined the two concepts, e.g. "SOM of the Boeing and the Honeywell avionics on both aircraft", it would have three drawbacks: it would lose the logical presentation order (aircraft first, then equipment); it would refer to the Embraer before it's defined in that context; and it would (arguably) be overall more cumbersome. I am open to suggestions, however. Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Tony (talk) 06:35, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possible to merge a few choppy little paras?
  • I have combined a few more. As I see it, para "choppiness" is a balance between separating distinct ideas and creating visual clutter. For example, in the "Embraer flight and communication sequence" section, there is a chronological description of events, and lumping too many of them into a single paragraph would be confusing and reduce legibility. If you have any specific paras which you feel can be merged with no harm, let me know or feel free to fix them. Crum375 (talk) 14:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tony (talk) 11:13, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for several image concerns as a whole:

  • File:H4-BRS.jpg: File:DOD-H4.pdf is gone; please supply the link to the page where the document is hosted to allow verification that this extract is from American federal material.
    • The original site where it was hosted in 2006 is no longer there. I have kept the original high resolution PDF file, though, which is clearly marked as U.S. Fed. Gov. material. I can email the file to anyone interested (it's 4.3 MB). There was also a discussion thread with Steve Smith about it in the previous FAC. Crum375 (talk) 05:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, I would put it that the original authors are the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency.[2] Some sites with the Enroute Charts.[3][4] Do you still have the original url (web.archive.org might have archived the link)? Failing that, please format the source properly with details using {{Cite journal}}, {{Cite book}}, or provide the full title, publisher, date, author (if any specific), and document number (if any) instead of the filename. Jappalang (talk) 06:23, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have removed the redlink from the source and added all available publication info, using the {{citation}} template (since it's not a book or a journal). I did this for both this image as well as the H4-Teres extract below. The PDF file, which is a high resolution digital version of the Enroute High Altitude chart, has the following on the information side panel: "(c) Copyright 2006 by the United States Government. No copyright claimed under Title 17 U.S.C. DOD Flight Information Publication. Enroute High Altitude Caribbean and South America. H3-H4." I can't find the original URL where it was hosted. Although you could well be right that the NGIA produced it, there is nothing on the chart to indicate that (it just says "DOD" generically). Crum375 (talk) 13:08, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awaiting feedback; other Images are appropriately licensed or verifiably in the public domain. Jappalang (talk) 05:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Well written and informative. Covers all the main aspects of the event. My only complaint would be to merge some of the very short paragraphs, particularly in the lower mid sections. Dr. Blofeld White cat 10:10, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for the support. I hate visual clutter too, but I try to keep separate ideas physically separate. Can you list specific sentences that you feel can be merged without forcing disjointed ideas together? Crum375 (talk) 11:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Once I stumbled on this and nominated for the GA. And I see it's as deserving of the FA promotion than ever. igordebraga ≠ 04:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [5].

Mary Toft

Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Who could resist the charms of an 18th-century woman who...erm...well, I'll leave it to you to read exactly what she did, only today she probably would be paid lots of money for doing it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comment: Wonderful queasy subject. Just a few odd points at present:- Various smallish concerns have been addressed and I am happy to support. I'd love to see it on the front page! Brianboulton (talk) 22:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overuse of quoted material - I'm particularly concerned by the 180+ word blockquote near the beginning of the article. Most of this, I think, could be paraphrased with just the odd word or phrase quoted directly
The quote is well out of any copyright claim, but it exists as a contemporary introduction to Toft, and her story. Although the article would seem to be a biography, its more about the hoax and the subsequent scandal. I think quotes are important in this regard, certainly in my mind they help me to better understand the mindset of the day. Just as the public first read about the story 280-odd years ago, the modern viewer reads the same curious report. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
I am half-convinced by this reasoning. If no other editor is concerned about the extent of the direct quotes, I'll say no more. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caption for the Cuniculari image is way, way too long, and contrary to WP:CAPTION
I've reduced it slightly. The caption contains text that I could find no other place for in the article, I thought it better in the caption as the reader can compare it with Hogarth's illustration. I can also remove the 'blasphemous parody' bit, but I need the descriptions of the Tofts to remain there. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
The reduction isn't really apparent. I find the overblown caption distracting – why exactly can't you find a place in the text for this material? According to WP:CAPTION, a caption is "a short text message"; also: "More than three lines in a caption may be distracting". We are further told: "Do not tell the whole story in the caption." I really think that this needs addressing. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
The only real place I can put a physical description of Toft is at the point where she is introduced as the protagonist, in 'Account'. The problem for me is that if I do so, I have to use St. Andre's description - and he hasn't yet been introduced. I feel its better to use that description once St. Andre has been introduced to the reader, and especially so alongside an image of both her, and her husband (and St. Andre for that matter, who is also in the image). There are three sentences in the caption, and I don't believe that anything is lost by having that information there - in fact I think it being there makes the article easier to read. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Have a look now - I've shortened it considerably. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I saw several sentences that could be interpreted as editorial opinion, for example: "The timing of Toft's confession could hardly have been worse for St. André, ..."
St. André had staked his professional reputation on the affair, the subsequent disgrace I feel removes any hint of editorial opinion here - if he had waited a few days, and not published his account, he could very well have escaped relatively unscathed as several other surgeons did (Manningham escaped by the skin of his teeth). Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Something like "The timing of Toft's confession was very awkward for St. André, who had staked his professional reputation on the affair" would, in my view, be neutral. "Could hardly have been worse" reads like POV. I can live with other slightly POV-ish wording, but I believe this one has to be softened. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
How about this? I've tried to keep it short (the 'more fanciful' part refers partly to Maubray's The Female Physician and his Sooterkin theory). Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll give it more attention later, but thanks for brightening my day. Oh, and there is a dablink that needs fixing. Brianboulton (talk) 11:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the link - I'd left it there as I don't know which Henry Fox it is. Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:48, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have no other issues with the article other than the above, and will be happy to support when these are resolved. Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a few minor changes but the pages you link give no guidance for the description of drawings and paintings. Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Thanks, that's much better, but a bit more work is needed still. Drawings and paintings use the same rules as other illustrations typically (unless the art itself is the topic). Phrases that should be removed from the alt text, because they can't be verified simply by looking at the images: "Toft", "Methodist", "satirise the story", "Frenchman", "of the doctor's earlier life". Phrases that could be removed in the interest of brevity (see 2nd example in WP:ALT #Flawed and better examples): "A coloured portrait of a", "An portrait of a", "An engraving showing", "A drawing of a". Typos: "An sequence". Eubulides (talk) 20:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about now? Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that's better, and I struck the phrases you fixed. How about the remaining phrases? Also, it might help to give a few more details of some of these delightful illustrations, e.g., something like this for St. André, "Three-quarters portrait of a middle-aged man in an 18th century red and blue frock coat with a black tricorn hat under an arm. He wears a white wig and ruffled shirt, and gazes sadly downwards with his hands slightly raised." Eubulides (talk) 23:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about this? I'm afraid I can't go into too much detail on the second Hogarth image, that would require an article of its own (as many of Hogarth's illustrations do). Parrot of Doom (talk) 12:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Better and better. I agree about the detail. I still see two phrases that cannot easily be verified by a non-expert who can see only the image, and which therefore need rephrasing or removal: "the State Crown of George I", "Methodist". Less importantly, perhaps "Frenchman" should be "French surgeon" (since the visible caption in the image says that)? Eubulides (talk) 01:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed them Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, and thanks for doing all that. Eubulides (talk) 18:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed 'Frenchman' to 'French surgeon' Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review File:Nathaniel st andre.jpg - I couldn't get the source on this to work. Notice that the license says "This applies to the United States, Australia, the European Union and those countries with a copyright term of life of the author plus 70 years" but the author is unknown. If we can't locate the author, we should change the license to PD-1923 and establish that the image was published before 1923. (I've worked on the rest of the images and they are all fine now.) Awadewit (talk) 18:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Click the edit button on the image description and use the url there - for some reason it won't work if you click it. No idea why. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - I also fixed the licensing. Awadewit (talk) 20:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments Toft is always a fun story! I'm excited we have such a good article on her!

Prose, part 1 - The lead and "Account" section need to be copyedited. Here are some examples of why:

  • I think the lead can be better - it is weighted down with detail right now - just tell us the essentials of the story. Not who sent letters to whom.

  • Local surgeon John Howard was called to investigate, and upon delivering several pieces of rabbits wrote letters to several people, some of which came to the attention of Nathaniel St. André, surgeon to the Royal Household of King George I of Great Britain. - This sentence is awkward.
Ok, how does this read? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Already a mother, several months earlier she had become pregnant, but as a peasant in 18th-century England she had no choice but to continue working in the fields. - Is the clause about her already being a mother necessary? It seems a bit awkwardly attached.
I think so - (IMO) some readers might assume that motherhood was unknown to her. I think its important people understand the modern perception that she did it for money and attention, and not because she was mentally scarred by the miscarriage. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Toft complained of painful complications early on, including in August the expulsion from her body of various pieces of flesh, one "as big as my arm" (possibly an abnormality of the developing placenta causing the embryo to stop developing, and the ejection of clots and flesh). - Almost a run-on.
This has been edited down a few times, but I'm no physician and am not certain which parts of the medical description I can remove. Can you offer any help? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the version I rewrote: Early in August, she expelled several pieces of flesh, one "as big as my arm". This may have been the result of an abnormality of the developing placenta, which caused the embryo to stop developing and blood clots and flesh to be ejected. - I just don't like "expelled" - any thoughts on that? Awadewit (talk) 20:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about discharged or egested? Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if that is much better. Choose what you think is best. Awadewit (talk) 02:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • She sent the pieces to John Howard, a man-midwife of thirty years experience, who lived in Guildford - Is this "she" Ann Toft?
Replaced 'she' with 'Ann Toft' Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • He wrote several letters to Davenant, notifying him of progress in the case, some of which came to the attention of Nathaniel St. André, since 1723 a Swiss surgeon to the Royal Household. - Almost a run-on
How about this? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "investigate" recurs throughout the article. Could another word occasionally be used?
I never notice these things until they're pointed out to me. You're quite right, so I've replaced several. Some uses weren't quite correct anyway. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Prose, part 2 - There are a few places that need further explanation.

  • The pictorial satirist and social critic William Hogarth was notably critical of the gullibility of both the Methodist Church, and the medical profession. - The Methodist Church is suddenly introduced at this point in the lead and the point is never explained in the article.
Hogarths criticism of the Church isn't directly related to this story (more to the Cock Lane ghost) so I've deleted that. Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maubray was a proponent of Maternal impression, and also warned pregnant women that over-familiarity with household pets could cause their children to resemble those pets. - I think the article should explain what maternal impression is, as the idea is really bound up with this story.
How about if I re-word the sentence to remove the 'and also', to join the theory and his warning? Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I still think we need to explain the theory. Clearly, Toft was relying on this theory when she made up her story. Awadewit (talk) 20:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can say that. None of the sources I used state in certain terms exactly how Toft's story matured. Bondeson goes furthest, giving possible explanations, but then casting doubt on each. Toft was an illiterate 18th-century woman, I doubt she or her peers would have known of The Female Physician. I think it more likely that Maubray latched onto the story as proof of his own crackpot theories. The best I could do would probably be to paraphrase Bondeson's work, but I'm slightly uncomfortable doing that. Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't suggest adding that explicit connection to the article. However, this idea (not necessarily Maubray's specific theory) was widely available and known during the 18th century - it was actually quite influential. It turns up in a lot of literature, particularly in chapbooks for the poor, for example. Anyway, I really think that we should not allude to theories like this, which are clearly relevant to the topic of the article, without explaining them. All it would take is a sentence. Awadewit (talk) 23:38, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How about this? You can change 'widely held' to 'common' or 'popular' if you like. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • St. André therefore desperately wanted the two to attend Toft; their Whig affiliations and medical knowledge would elevate his status as both doctor, and philosopher - The Whig reference is not really explained to a reader unfamiliar with 18th-century politics.
I'll see what I can do about that Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok I added a note on this. What do you think? Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could you add something into the article itself about the Whigs being the ruling party and that is why his status would have been improved? Awadewit (talk) 20:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How does this look? Its short and perhaps slightly clumsy, but I think that to expand further on politics would be straying off topic for this article (I have included a link elsewhere to Grub Street, another I'm working on, that article contains quite a lot of relevant political info). Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comprehensiveness and/or structure:

  • This article is ostensibly a biography - should it have sections about what is known of Mary Toft's life? Right now, everything is about the hoax.
I'll address the above points later, but the story of Mary Toft is pretty much the hoax - she was a peasant woman in 18th century England, little else is known about her. I do recall some information on a family tree, but the only salient information I think I could add is her illiteracy (her confessions are like text-speak). Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:31, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just wanted to make sure. Awadewit (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to supporting this article soon. Awadewit (talk) 17:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - (of course, there will be things) Third paragraph of "Aftermath" could be split into two. The first, second, and third sentences of the fourth paragraph in that section seem not to go together. Perhaps put together a linking sentence at the beginning and then list events that happened to her. The page kinda just dies with Pope. It seems a little odd that Pope ends it although his is dated earlier than the others. You need to find some kind of conclusion or way to summarize to end it at the last piece of contemporary statement. I don't know how, but I am sure someone like Malleus can come up with an idea if you can't think of one. Ottava Rima (talk) 04:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
How does this look re the three sentences? Unfortunately I'm not sure how to end it quite as you suggest - I'd like to write something like "Pope aptly summarised the affair with the following verse" but I'm unsure if that's suitable. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find a critic who praises Pope's lines, then you could end like that. Be glad I like you - "a rudimentary answer to this question is suggested by one of the most brilliant and witty satires of the Mary Toft affair" from here. Also, here are some other sources I found: 1 and 2. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:40, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I had a think about how to do this, and decided the best way would be to add a short section detailing the general piss-taking that Toft received. I've integrated the ballad into that. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:31, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support No idea how much of it is accurate, but it on good faith. This was a fun read, and educated me. Would be good to have on the front page for pure novelty if nothing else. If there's a snag I don't much like all the red links, and not sure how many of them are likely ever to get an article. Otherwise, great job! Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I intend to create articles for each - Sooterkin will most certainly be one. Nearly everything in the article is verifiable online, you can see much of the original documentation here Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:21, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting; I'm going to put this in Culture and society, but if others think it belongs in Health and medicine, it can be moved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [6].

The Lucy poems

Nominator(s): Kafka Liz, Ottava Rima, Ceoil, Awadewit


Nominating on behalf of Kafka Liz, who is off wiki for a while. We nomed this article a few months back but it went down in flames for a number of reasons. It has recieved a few detailed reviews since then and benefited from several combs by all involved. Thanks to Ricardiana and Fowler&fowler especially for so much insight, time and effort. Other than that, looking forward to engaging with other editor's suggestions and comments. Ceoil (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ealdgyth. Ceoil (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is not that we don't know, it is that it is a deliberate ambiguity in the poem. Note the sentence in the article: "Similarly, no insight can be gained from determining the exact geographical location of the "springs of Dove"; in his youth, Wordsworth had visited springs of that name in Derbyshire, Patterdale and Yorkshire." Knowing this, what do you think we should do? Awadewit (talk) 00:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The explanatory footnote is good, in my eyes. If you wish, you might unlink the amiguous link in prose, and link each specific River Dove mention to their respective article. See what I mean here. Of course, that raises its own issues. It's totally up to you. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There was an interesting post on the sub-article talk a while back[7], worth pondering. I might ping Wetman on this. Ceoil (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm very close to supporting this. It's well written and exhaustively researched. I have a few nitpicky items which I've posted on the article's talk page, because they don't seem important enough to oppose the FAC over.

There is, however, one exception: The tenses shift regularly, from "Wordsworth characterised..." to "Wordsworth complains...". (There are numerous other examples as well, involving critics and others.) I feel strongly that the tenses should be standardised before I can vote to support. Scartol • Tok 13:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Almost everything on this list has been resolved, the tense issue among them. Awadewit (talk) 15:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Sorry for the delay in my response! Scartol • Tok 22:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support this piece of beautifully crafted prose with just one comment:

  • "The expiration of the lease in Alfoxton soon provided an opportunity for the two friends to live even closer." The previous para talks of the two living within walking distance of each other; accordingly, we do not know who lived at Alfoxton (which has not previously been mentioned). Also, I expected Alfoxton to be a town or village and was surprised to discover it was a building. Suggest this read "The expiration of the Wordsworth's lease of Alfoxton House soon provided an opportunity for the two friends to live even closer." hamiltonstone (talk) 01:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "The expiration of Wordsworth's [[Alfoxton House]] lease soon provided an opportunity for the two friends to live together." to clarify. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS I've trimmed the length of the first caption, but it still winds and wraps awful bad. Can the pic be a little larger? Or can some of the information be relocated into the main text? Same for the other captions: tiny pics and one-to-three-word lines. Bad look. See the Palmer pic. I recommend possible combinations of three measures, as hinted at above: trim, relocate, enlarge. Why, for example, do we need "Wordworth's" in the Palmer caption? I'm trimming it now, but more needs to be done. Tony (talk) 06:51, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PPS I presume that in the title, lower-case "p" is appropriate. You don't immediately learn whether the title for the collection is Wordsworth's. My trimming of the Palmer caption neglected to insert "The". Should it be there? Tony (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the edits. I've trimmed the lead caption, and inserted a 'The' in the text for the Palmer image. Ceoil (talk) 11:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Explanatory note - "The Lucy poems" or "The Lucy Poems" is used by scholars when referring to the grouping. "Lucy poem" is a more casual reference to poetry about the Lucy themes. Rather subtle and the latter is mostly used in comparisons with other works. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:12, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've shortened some of the captions even further. Awadewit (talk) 18:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As a fix to this, I would suggest that all of the short titles be provided without ellipses. Many of the poems are known by the short titles, so it wouldn't be a problem to have them used after the first instance (with full titles in the subheadings, of course). Ottava Rima (talk) 01:37, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I'm on a really old computer though this weekend, and ctl F is not working for me. Can get to it about 15 hours, after my beauty sleep and a short drive. Ceoil (talk) 01:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I trust y'all can fix this minor issue later (don't have a brawl!) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:49, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [8].

Hepatorenal syndrome

Nominator(s): Samir 07:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Meets all criteria in my opinion. The article recently went through WP:GAR where many additions were made. I invited many of our medical types and non-medical types to look over the text over the past month. All images are free; it was a challenge for me to find the TIPS image. I look forward to everyone's comments -- Samir 07:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ok. I have placed ALT text on the schematics as: "Diagram: portal hypertension leads to splanchnic vasoconstriction, which decreases effective cirulatory volume. This leads to ascites due to renal sodium avidity and HRS due to renal vasoconstriction" and "Diagram: ascites, diuretic-resistant ascites and HRS are a spectrum. All occur in portal hypertension. Diuretic-resistance occurs with splanchnic vasodilation. When it progresses to renal vasoconstriction, HRS occurs." It is a little lengthy but explains the two images well. I have added the text: "Two part stained slide of altered cells of the liver on top labelled as alcoholic cirrhosis and cells of the kidney on the bottom labelled as being normal". Thoughts? Should the schematic ALT texts be shortened? -- Samir 18:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a basic test that medical articles should pass, which I call the "Johnny test". Mom: "The doctor says that your uncle has something called hepatorenal syndrome." Johnny: What's that? Let me look it up on Wikipedia." Can Johnny get a useful answer? To some degree yes, but there's too much jargon. The first paragraph of the lead, at least, should give Johnny an overview he can understand, without jargon. How about something like this:


I'm not an expert and probably got some things wrong here: I'm mainly trying to illustrate the level I believe the intro to a medical FA should aim for. Looie496 (talk) 18:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You're right, needs some tweaking. Working on it, need a little but not much time. Thanks -- Samir 03:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, how does the lead read now? I think it is very good personally -- Samir 06:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great, concise and informative but easy to understand. Looie496 (talk) 02:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment this is an excellent and comprehensive article, but I agree with the above that the prose needs simplifying. For example, the phrase 'in the setting of' appears 8 times by my count, and sounds like doctor-speak in a way that may be off-putting to laypeople. As a minor aside, the two diagrams have jpeg jaggies; convert to SVG? Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: sorry it has taken me a week to come and comment on this excellent article. It covers all the important aspects and I cannot detect any omissions or factual problems. I was still hoping that the following issues could be addressed:
    • There's a fair number of primary sources, and I'm not entirely sure if each of these is backed up by a secondary source affirming their relative prominence in the evidence food chain.
    • The word "Type" as in "Type 1" is capitalised. Could you clarify if this is in keeping with the WP:MOS (can't seem to find the relevant point).
    • Clearly, if you have HRS, you'd like to be in Barcelona. Is there a source confirming that this seems to be the world capital of ascites/HRS currently? JFW | T@lk 11:31, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hi JFW -- yes I agree we are top heavy on the primary cites. I think we reference all of the major review articles. I will tighten the citations -- need a bit of time but not too long. The "Type 1" vs. "type 1" convention is not standardized in the literature. Couldn't find anything in WP:MEDMOS. The portal hypertensive basic research, the database work on portal hypertensive complications, and the terlipressin data are all from Barcelona. The midodrine/octreotide work was from Italy (Padua) and the TIPS work is from Toronto. MARS work and the transplant data are from a number of centres. -- Samir 04:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • To follow-up: (1) primary sources are now backed by one of the major review articles as secondary sources; (2) "type" has been changed to lowercase as the majority of review articles have it lowercase; (3) I can't find a reference for Barcelona as the major centre for HRS research, probably best if we do not reference that imo -- Samir 05:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Support, clearly ready for FA. JFW | T@lk 23:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. From "Signs and symptoms": "The urine produced by individuals with HRS has a very low concentration of sodium, and typically does not contain cellular material when analyzed by microscopy. Detailed criteria for the diagnosis of HRS have been defined based on laboratory data and the clinical circumstances of the affected individual." These features are neither signs nor symptoms.
  2. From "Causes", paragraph 2: "iatrogenic precipitants of HRS include the aggressive use of diuretic medications". Is this correct? Isn't this a cause of hypovolaemia?
  3. From "Diagnosis", paragraph 2: "treatment with 1.5 litres of intravenous normal saline". Doesn't saline cause worsening ascites and oedema?
  4. From "Diagnosis", paragraph 3: " there is impairment of the ability of the renal tubules to concentrate urine in ATN, leading to urine sodium measurements that are much higher than in HRS". In ATN, tubules are unable to concentrate urine. Also, the urine sodium in ATN is high; higher than in HRS. However is it correct that the impaired concentration leads to high urinary sodium?
  5. I like the diagrams in the "Pathophysiology" section.
  6. Regarding the photo in the "Prevention" section, it may be helpful to say that this is an endoscopic view of the inside of the oesophagus.
  7. From "Prevention", paragraph 1: "removal of ascitic fluid may improve renal function if it decreases the pressure on the renal veins." Are you sure it's the veins, not the arteries?

Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:46, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Axl. Thanks very much for looking things over for the article.
  1. For signs and symptoms -- Rewritten. I have removed the urinary findings as they are rightly not signs and symptoms (and are mentioned elsewhere). I also re-wrote the last line to make the point that signs and symptoms do not make the diagnosis of HRS
  2. Causes para 2 -- yes diuretic medications are a common trigger for the hemodynamic changes in cirrhotics that lead to HRS
  3. Diagnosis para 2 -- yes the way to distinguish HRS from pre-renal failure is to "force" euvolemia by giving 1.5 L of NS to an affected individual (in pre-renal failure, the renal failure would improve and U Na would rise)
  4. Diagnosis para 3 -- re-written. Agree, I worded it wrong and it was confusing before. Hopefully it reads better now.
  5. Prevention photo -- added reference to esophagus to caption
  6. Prevention -- yes large volume paracentesis is supposed to decrease pressure on the renal veins (arterial pressure would not be affected) leading to improved renal function. This is classic teaching handed down from Sheila Sherlock's original text on liver diseases, but there has been little work evaluating it in the recent literature. -- Samir 17:16, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Samir, thanks for clarifying (and educating me!). I support the application for FA status. Axl ¤ [Talk] 17:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I will begin now to take a look and likely make some straightforward copyediting changes as I go. Please feel free to revert any that inadvertently change the meaning. I will note queries below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wow, I am impressed - you've navigated the tightrope between medical exactness and plain english very very well! I was reduced to minor nitpicky things. It is comprehensive and I can't see any reason not to Support Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:07, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem. Just for the future, when you upload images like this one, could you point your links to the exact flickr image instead of the photostream and upload the images to Commons rather than Wikipedia? Thanks, NW (Talk) 15:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Full support with Comments - What on earth does this mean, "The minor criteria are laboratory in nature"? And here, "Some viral infections of the liver, including hepatitis B and hepatitis C can also lead to inflammation of the glomerulus of the kidney", as far as I can tell, the reference only refers to chronic hepatitis B virus infections. And this, I think, is a mixed metaphor "Contributions by Murray Epstein cemented splanchnic vasodilation and renal vasoconstriction as hallmarks of the syndrome"— but no big deal. Graham Colm Talk 14:29, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Graham, I rewrote the two sentences in a clearer manner [9] [10] and added the reference to a nice 2001 review of renal diseases in hepatitis C. [11] Thanks -- Samir 01:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [12].

Charles Stewart (Canadian politician)

See Charles Stewart (premier)
Nominator(s): Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 19:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This is a boring article about a boring man who did some boring things. I'm bothering with it only because I'm trying to make Premiers of Alberta into a featured topic. On the upside, the article is quite short. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 19:27, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Charles_Stewart.jpg - It is unclear how this images is PD Fasach Nua (talk) 21:07, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per the tag, it's in the public domain because its creator died more than 50 years ago (in 1938, to be exact). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 21:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At least, that's why it's in the public domain in Canada. It's in the public domain in the United States because it was in the public domain in Canada as of January 1, 1996. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 21:17, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Another finely written article. I really only have two concerns:
  • The description of Stewart's relationship with UFA as being "frosty" seemed a bit odd. It's stated that he was a member of UFA, opposed their politicization, but that he still worked well with them after, and that UFA refused to run a candidate against him, or attack his government. Suddenly, as a federal minister, his relationship seems much worse, and full of ill will. There appears to be a gap here where the relationship turned sour. Or, perhaps, a little clarification that his relationship with the Farmers' government deteriorated upon becoming a federal minister?
  • His post-political career seems mighty thin. Is there nothing that can be said of his participation with the organizations he chaired? Or any private business ventures? Resolute 01:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • To your first point, good point. Does this help? Part of the problem is that there's no source that comprehensively covers his relationship with the UFA as Premier and as federal cabinet minister: Jaques and Thomas don't deal with his federal career in any detail, while Foster and Wardhaugh don't say much about his career as Premier. Reading between the lines, I think he felt a little betrayed that the UFA sought to replace his government after he'd been so accommodating towards them. To your second point, I haven't been able to find anything, and at this point I'm not sure where to look (I'm almost certain it would have to be in primary sources of some kind). Note that by the time he left politics he was close to seventy; I surmise that he wasn't all that active post-retirement, though that's just a guess. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 01:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think on the first point, it's the word "remained" that I object to. It implies a degradation of a relationship that isn't explained beforehand. Probably just changing it to "his relationship with the UFA was frosty..." As to the second, I can't imagine the needle in a haystack that searching through newspapers would be, with the possible exception of checking after the date of his death for an obit that might add more. It is an odd section though. In short, it says "Stewart sat on two councils then died" in the first paragraph, while the second is a one sentence rehash of the entire article. Now THAT is summary style!  ;) Resolute 03:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've replaced "remained" with "were", and inserted one more sentence (literally the only one I could find in any of my sources) in the section on his later life. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 03:41, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on sources: all sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 12:27, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not happy yet. Examples from the top:

  • MOSLINK recommends that major countries such as Canada/ian not be linked.
  • Fixed.
  • as his replacement. And another causality that is wrongly used as intransitive: "the UFA politicized during Stewart's premiership". (was policitized?)
  • Fixed.
  • Consider a new sentence for "When Sifton ...". I'm picking up a slightly tendency to overuse semicolons where a stop might normally be used. I say this even though I'm a supporter of semicolon use. See "; even so".
  • I have been known to average more than one semicolon per sentence; I'll do a cull.
  • "Unable to match the UFA's appeal to rural voters, Stewart was defeated at the polls and resigned as premier." Does that mean he was personally defeated in his electorate, or his government was defeated? Isn't resignation as premier a foregone conclusion in either case?
  • Clarified that it was his government that was defeated. And no, resignation as Premier is not foregone - see Canadian Prime Minister William Lyon MacKenzie King's decision to remain Prime Minister after losing the 1925 election, for example. In a Westminster Parliamentary system, the Premier remains Premier until he/she either resigns or is defeated in a parliamentary confidence vote. While it's customary to opt to resign after losing an election (the assumption often being that defeat in a confidence vote would be imminent), it's not automatic. Moreover, it was still less a foregone conclusion in this case, since there was thought that Stewart might lead the new UFA government (which I didn't think warranted a mention in the lead, but which is covered quite thoroughly later one).
  • "an agreement that transferred control of Alberta's natural resources from Ottawa to the provincial government"—silliest thing the federal government EVER did.
  • Sorry, I'm feeling dim - I'm rereading this, but I'm not sure that I see the problem.
It was a meta-comment: Alberta hogs the lion's share of oil-shale revenue, which many people feel should be shared more equitably through the dominion.
  • "in 1935, so too was Stewart"—clarify here that he lost his seat.
  • Who was Macdonald? Suddenly he bounds into the text ...
  • Hamiltonstone addressed this.
  • Causality treated awkwardly again: "After marrying Sneath, he converted to her Church of England faith.". Sounds forcible.
  • Not certain that I agree here.
Sorry, I misread it as "converted her to". It's fine.
  • Ref 1 repeated six times in a row in one para, having made five consecutive appearances in the previous para. Then 3, 3, 3. Can you attend to these repetitions throughout? Better one ref number at para's end, unless there are particularly contentious statements during the para that need to be specifically marked. (But they're mostly trivial.)
  • My own view is (obviously) in line with Hamiltonstone's. I think dense referencing helps guard against the tendency for new material of uncertain provenance being added. Using a single reference per paragraph makes it easy for unreferenced material to be added to that paragraph while appearing to be supported by the reference at paragraph's end. Since reviewers are divided on this question, I'll hold off on making any change until consensus develops.
Dense referencing is no such guard against subsequent insertions that are not attributable to the source. So sentences 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 have a [1], [1], [1], [1], [1], [1], and senctence 2 has no ref? You still have to check periodically, and as a FA you'd have it on your watchlist. What the density does do is clutter the text and irritate the reader. I strongly suggest that you ration the boring repetitions of the ref number to one or two, placed possibly at the end of one of the more important sentences during the para, and at the end (usually, one at the end is preferable, unless it's a long para or has a contentious statement within it). This is a signal to the reader that everything in the para is attributable to that source, as a default. Please have a look at a few other FAs to see how it's done. Like overlinking, over referencing makes the text look unprofessional. WP's editors are expected to exercise judgement here, in the normal practice of academic/research text, rather than slavishly covering their asses by plastering numbers after every single sentence.
  • "in which he defeated Conservative William John Blair handily"—the last word is colloquial. "easily defeated".
  • Fixed.

Needs an independent copy-edit throughout. Referencing needs scrutiny for tedious reps. Tony (talk) 14:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've arranged for a copyedit from User:Roux; hopefully it will meet with your approval. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 14:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments leaning to support

  • Excellent scope, structure and good general style.
  • The range of sources seems a little narrow for someone who appears to have been quite a high profile figure, but it may represent all the sound scholarly material available.
  • It does. For context, during this period Alberta's population was well under a million, so Stewart headed the government of an entity that, population-wise, was the size of a small city. Moreover, provincial premiers during this era, in contrast to now, were figures of relatively minor importance, since it was only the advent of the welfare state (during which government spending on areas of provincial responsibility, such as education and health, increased radically) that elevated them to effective full partners in Confederation. He has never been the subject of a book-length biography, and the material available on his premiership is in line with comparable figures. I was surprised not to find more on his federal role, but I've done a thorough survey of the material available about the King ministry and Stewart barely figures in most of it. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 14:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've done some copyediting in early parts, but have to stop now - I only hope they are improvements rather than the opposite. I'm not of the same view as Tony, though: I favour dense referencing, even if it is the same ref. If the article gets sliced and diced, that way the refs stay with the material they source - not so likely to be the case if one has one cite at the end of the para. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your help. Your work definitely improved the article, though it added a semicolon to an already semicolon-dense piece of work. I might revert your change in wording from "insurgent Liberal" to "rival" as it pertains to Boyle, since the latter wording implies to me a greater relationship between Stewart and Boyle than actually existed. I'm mulling it over. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 14:36, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reveting that is fine. Other points:
  • I copyedited the intro to railways para, but it has a problem - the rest of the para doesn't actually explicitly mention Stewart's role. The people clamoured for their railways, then a bunch of business stuff happened. Where is Stewart in this? Also in same section "drainage of northern areas" lacks context. Are we talking swamps, snow melt, sewerage for towns? Is this readily (and briefly) able to be rephrased for more clarity?
  • To the first point, assuming you're talking about the first paragraph of "Party division", it's intended to set the stage for the rest of the section. The Liberals of 1917 were a house divided for reasons essentially unrelated to Stewart, and those reasons need to be explained if his Premiership is to be understood (his minor role in the railway scandal is covered earlier, under "Earlier political career"). To the second, the wikilinked article states that "Many agricultural soils need drainage to improve production or to manage water supplies", which is what we're talking about here (I presume that snow melt would be the major cause, along with rain). I could specify "agricultural drainage", if you think that would help. Otherwise, I'm open to alternative wordings. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 05:34, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The problem is the first para after the heading 'public works'. The railways stuff just isn't linked to Stweart, other than saying it occurred during his premiership. Unless it somehow actually involved him, it probably isn't notable for this article, and if did involve him, we should hear about how. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, sorry, that should have been obvious. I've inserted his name in there to add some clarity to the connection, but ultimately any action of the government is attributable to the premier, even if he's not specifically mentioned. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know when Stewart joined UFA?
  • "the UFA was not satisfied with the government's record: in 1918, it found that.." The "it found that" sounds odd in this particular context. "it claimed that", or "it argued that" might be better, depending on the detail.
  • "Though he emphatically denied that there would be an election in the spring of 1921 (the last one had been held in June 1917, and four years was the normal life of a legislature in Canada), Stewart eventually called one for July 19". Huh? July isn't in spring - this sounds like it was right on schedule. What have i missed?
  • "Lakeland College historian Franklin Foster, in his biography of John Edward Brownlee,..." This is the first mention of Brownlee, so we need to know who he is (ie. why would this be relevant to Stewart?) As this will lengthen the sentence, I suggest a full stop before "Lakeland College historian..."
  • Nice ending.
  • It's better, but I still see things that need tweaking, apart from the over-referencing. (I removed a few from the top, and now I see Cite Errors in the Notes: sorry, can you fix? And was there some way of doing it better?)
    • "Newly-politicized" – see MoS on hyphens.
  • Somebody seems to have gotten this. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist)
    • "It has been my fight ever since I became a minister to see that the farmers of the province were having a square deal," he remarked, – MoS requires the comma to be after the closing quotation marks (unless the comma is actually in the source.
    • Bit unusual not to put "p." or "pp." plus space, before the page numbers in the Notes. I support I can live with it.
    • "As MLA" table: a reason to repeat "Turnour N.A." for each one? It's kind of crowded already.
    • Link to "Jasper—Edson". You'd put it out of its misery by moving it to a new title with an en dash. The em dash is wrong, and looks very odd.
    • "Born in Ontario, he had moved west for economic opportunity, become an important political voice in an emerging province, and then gone to Ottawa to be that province's national voice. As Mackenzie King eulogized him, "in more respects than one, Mr. Stewart's career mirrored the development of Canada itself."—By the time you get to "gone", you've lost the sense of "had", don't you agree? I think here the "had" needs to be repeated twice. But on a larger structural scale, the last, short para doesn't seem to belong here: it's not about the title (Post-political life), but is rather a summary of his entire career – better in the lead, if at all. Why not insert Mackenzie King's statement in the lead, too? But I don't think we should have to go to the physical source to work out what King meant: what were these several respects? If you have it at hand, please consider explicating them in a brief list within the sentence.
  • I thought the last para was a bit short, so i'm happy with the suggestion about giving it slightly more detail. But as to it being in the wrong place, i don't agree. I think a lot of WP articles, including high-quality ones, suffer from a lack of a sense of an ending - something particularly appropriate in bios. Take the last para away and one loses the poetry of the ending, and a great quote from King. And I think the King quote really has added meaning coming after the other rather unkind opinions we are provided, that King expressed in his diary - an effect that would be lost were this material moved to the lead. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Hamiltonstone about the paragraph's location, for essentially his/her reasons. In addition, the quote's from a eulogy, which it does make some sense to place in the same part of the article as the death. As for what the respects were, that's what I was trying to get at with the first paragraph of the sentence: Stewart was born in one of Confederation's original provinces, moved west at a time when encouraging western immigration was among the federal government's major priorities, took the leadership of Alberta when it was emerging as important, and joined the federal government where he played a role in placing it on the same plane, constitutionally, as the other provinces (with regards to natural resources). Admittedly, this relies on the reader being somewhat acquainted with Canadian history. I could spell all of this out, and it would expand the paragraph, but it might be a bit much for something that's only tangentially related. Thoughts? Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 16:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think this will be worthy of promotion when fixed. Tony (talk) 09:20, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support and comments A nice article about a boring man, but it wouldn't be FAC without a few nitpicks (:
  • came west to Alberta where are you? I'd prefer went
  • the pair would have eight children maybe the pair would eventually have eight children? - you can ignore this
  • Could you check that every "however" has a useful function and isn't just padding?
  • I had the same problem interpreting the final paragraph. Would changing the order of the two sentences help, so we can see the context first?
I shall think about Charlie when I need to sleep... Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:44, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for your comments, and I'm glad to have cured your insomnia. I've changed "came" to the more perspective-neutral "moved", and removed one of the howevers. I'm going to need to think more about the last paragraph. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 15:59, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've reworked the last paragraph, but I'm not really crazy about the result. Thoughts from all who have expressed views on the subject (and indeed from anyone else) welcome. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 21:55, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [13].

Tropical Storm Faxai (2007)

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meet FA criteria. Although this is a relatively short article, it's comprehensive of the entire storm, including the large difference between warning centers. All thoughts and comments are welcome. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:14, 3 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment- I like this article pretty much, but there is one thing that I can see right now that might cause some problems. When you do the difference among warning centers, you say: The Japan Meteorological Agency uses 10-minute sustained winds, while the Joint Typhoon Warning Center uses 1-minute sustained winds.[12] The conversion factor between the two is 1.14.[13] JMA's peak intensity for Faxai was 100 km/h (65 mph) 10-minute sustained, or 120 km/h (75 mph) 1-minute sustained.[2][13] The JTWC's peak intensity for Faxai was 75 km/h (45 mph) 1-minute sustained, or 65 km/h (40 mph) 10-minute sustained.[14][13]. That seems good, but with the conversions between 10 and 1-min winds are the problem. The JMA only reports in 10-min winds and the JTWC only reports in 1-min winds so would that be OR? --Anhamirak 02:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
→ "This policy does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources from which it is derived." –Juliancolton | Talk 02:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks--Anhamirak 02:30, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This was my only problem, so support. (By the way, is this just our second WPac FAC?) --Anhamirak 02:32, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No; we have Typhoon Tip, Typhoon Pongsona, Typhoon Paka, and Tropical Storm Vamei. –Juliancolton | Talk 02:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support Anhamirak; the quick reply from JC; and the source check Ealdgyth. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the image review, I'm a bit confused as to what I need to do exactly for the track map though. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 00:35, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think NuclearWarfare meant to tag the image for relicense to CC-BY-3.0, which I did. --an odd name 11:29, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, ok, thanks AnOddName. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 12:19, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, AnOddName got it. Sorry I missed this earlier, but thanks for doing that for me. NW (Talk) 02:28, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, since I made that pic, I switched it to the proper license ({{PD-self}}). Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 20:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Theres nothing missing from the MH, Impact or Preps and it looks good.Jason Rees (talk) 21:09, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looked over it, and it looks fine to me on the basis of the FA criteria. Darren23 (Contribs) 01:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, see belowComments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • "A Japan Airlines flight heading to Narita Airport"
  • "The storm traveled towards the northwest under"
  • Link and maybe spell out UTC on its first appearance in prose.
  • "The JTWC also began issuing advisories on Faxai"-->The JTWC also issued advisories on Faxai
  • "Around that time, the JMA upgraded Faxai to a severe tropical storm with winds reaching 95 km/h (60 mph 10-minute sustained)." The noun + -ing construction is awkward; see this excellent guide on how to fix it.
  • "In the following advisory issued by the JTWC, however, they upgraded the depression to a tropical storm based on the development of a well-defined central dense overcast." Why "however"? Is this a stark contrast to what might be expected?
  • No link for "sustained winds"?
  • "All Nippon Airways cancelled all day flights between Tokyo and the Izu Islands"
  • "Areas around Tokyo were notified about heavy rains" "about"-->of the
  • "Residents were advised to stay indoors during the storm, especially after sunset, avoid possible flying debris." Is there a missing word? "especially after sunset, avoid possible flying debris" sounds strange.
  • Spell out JST
  • "The rainfall in Miyakejima came close to surpassing the record daily rainfall for October 27." "came close to surpassing"-->almost surpassed
  • "Damages from cyclone totaled to "
  • "Three crew members had neck injures, one of whom also was cut in her thigh."-->Three crew members sustained neck injures, and one was also cut in her thigh. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but "Differences among warning centers" seems to be too small. It either needs some of the information about the differences moved down, or to just have the heading removed and be part of the previous section. I say this simply because it aesthetically puts forth a breach between two sections that seem to be close together. Two or three sentences from the last paragraph of the previous section could be pulled down if you want to preserve the "Differences" section. Also, the line "took off from Hangzhou Xiaoshan International Airport and was heading to Narita International Airport," could simply be put "Airport, heading to Narita International Airport,". The "and" distracts from the purpose of the sentence. "was hit in the head" By what? The woman? Ottava Rima (talk) 18:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not thrilled with the prose. OK now; I've made a few little tweaks; do watch your omission of "to" or other little grammatical words in long sentences in which two clauses are joined by "and"—here, the fix was grammatical to convey the causality more smoothly. If you're to continue to present nominations, can you take steps to tighten it up, and/or to work with good writers on articles?

  • Which ENGVAR is it? I see "travelled" and "traveled".
  • "One woman sustained serious injures, and five others received minor injuries."—No male was injured?
  • Probably remove "also" in the lead, as redundant, and join the two sentences with a semicolon ("injuries; the plane").
  • "($1.5 million USD)." Is that the correct placement of the currency signifier? You can probably dispense with "US" as the international default—check MOSNUM. And the D is definitely redundant. Why link it? And there it is further down, linked as well ...
  • "Three crew members sustained neck injures, and one was also cut in her thigh."—last clause a bit weird (sounds like chicken for lunch).
  • "esidents were advised to stay indoors during the storm, especially after sunset, and avoid possible flying debris." Probably "to" before "avoid". Tony (talk) 03:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, 1a. The prose quality is fine, but it isn't "engaging, even brilliant". Rather, it's quite dull. It's researched from a handful of meteorological reports, most or all of which should be considered primary sources. From a brief search in ProQuest Newspapers, this storm doesn't appear to have made news an any English-language sources other than a blurb in London's Independent. As such, I'm not even convinced that it meets notability guidelines for having its own article, unless you can produce evidence that secondary sources, English or otherwise, covered it. --Andy Walsh (talk) 18:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure how they could be considered primary sources to be honest; it's not like the storm self-published. That said, the article definitely meets notability requirements, both by WP:WPTC and Wikipedia-wide standards, but notability issues are irrelevant to FAC. I don't think there's really anything we can do about its dullness. Personally, I find the article fascinating, but to each his own. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • They are primary sources because they are first-hand data written by people who are paid to record it. By nature, limited prose can be written from them, and no analysis, interpretation, or critical commentary is possible. This is where the dullness comes from—we have essentially a weather report in article form. It's short because no English-language media covered it. To compare, would you accept an article about a crime that was written entirely from the police reports or court documents? No. It would be dry and, likely, not comprehensive. --Andy Walsh (talk) 18:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Last time i checked the Independent and Bloomberg were English-language media so that takes out "It's short because no English-language media covered it." Also as JC said it passes all the notability critera for WP with secondry sources. Jason Rees (talk) 18:43, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was hyperbole. I acknowledged The Independent above; the blurb is 62 words. I'm still not convinced this even meets general WP notability requirements. And Julian, notability is indeed relevant at FAC. From the criteria page: "In addition to meeting the requirements for all Wikipedia articles, it has the following attributes." --Andy Walsh (talk) 19:19, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The storm is notable, it killed one person and caused $1.5 million in damages. It definitely has enough sources to make it notable. Since notability is not your primary concern, can you clarify on what your primary concern (quibble in this case) with the article is? Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quibble? At any rate, my primary concern is that the sources are almost entirely primary, making this little more than a re-hash of weather reports. As such, it's lacking any analysis, interpretation of data and events, or commentary. Also, I can't take your word for it that the storm is notable. For these two reasons, secondary sources are needed to balance out all the primary sources. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:14, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out in response to Laser brain's snide attacks on my support on my talk page, FAC is not about notability concerns. Therefore, mentioning notability at FAC is inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
← I'm genuinely confused. Staff writers at news agencies are paid to cover news events. Does that make the Associated Press a primary source? –Juliancolton | Talk 22:04, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's no matter, I've withdrawn my opposition. Have fun. --Andy Walsh (talk) 22:06, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • PS Although I'm not opposing, I do note that this article is on the small side for a FA. I urge those in the storm project to identify more meaty storms for working up to nomination. Tony (talk) 09:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with comment: After my and others' actionable concerns have been addressed, I'm fairly certain this meets the FA criteria. I sympathize with Andy's (Laser brain's) comments to a degree. Notability and whether a certain article "deserves" to be an FA are valid but messy issues that have arisen several times. However, the truth of the matter is that bare bones meteorology (basically what this article is) is not interesting for many, and when you aren't interested, the article won't engage you no matter how well-written it is. Although "brilliant" prose is part of the criteria, if there's nothing that can be done to address the problem, then we just have to accept that and make the article as good as we can in all other respects. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:54, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somewhat-involved support - I feel Dabomb87 hit the proverbial nail on the head. Granted, I'm familiar with the text to an extent where I an unable to identify any issues, but I'm confident it meets the criteria. –Juliancolton | Talk 02:45, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 02:00, 3 August 2009 [15].

Siward, Earl of Northumbria

Nominator(s): Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This article has received quite a lot of work, and I think it's ready for FA status. Most of the preparation was done several months ago, though then I held off nominating for a variety of reasons. I am satisfied the important points about this figure's life are now covered in reasonable depth, while the article has benefitted from the copy-editing and review talents of several other users, most notably Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs), Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) and Hamiltonstone (talk · contribs). You will note that the interesting but dubious saga-material about this figure has been included but not incorporated into the article by placement in text boxes. This is a good solution to the problem this poses, while it follows a growing convention in mainstream history writing to make use of such boxes (after the manner of Norman Davies) for such purposes. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review:

  • File:Edward the Confessor 1042 1066.jpg is in the public domain one way or another, but my thought is that as a reproduction of what is effectively a two dimensional work it should be tagged differently, as User:PHGCOM may not have had any rights to it in the first place to release into the public domain.
  • Disagree with image review. The object is not two-dimensional. I had an image of a 4000 year-old shallow bas relief rejected as not PD-old because it was deemed to be 3-D and therefore the photographer's copyright, which seems bizarre, but technically the photo is the uploader's copyright to dispose of. jimfbleak (talk) 09:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The question is whether the threshold of creativity is met in photographing a work. For that purpose, I can't see how either a coin or a shallow bas relief would be considered as three dimensional. Do you happen to have a link to the discussion where this occurred? Anyway, it's public domain one way or another, so this isn't a huge deal, but I'd like to make sure the tagging's done right. Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 17:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:EmpireNorth.JPG is derived from File:Cnut 1014 1035.jpg, which is tagged as being in the public domain in all jurisdictions in which copyright term is life of author plus seventy years, but the file has no information on the lifespan of the author (it's also unclear whether William R. Shepherd is the cartographer of that map, or the editor of the atlas, or what). Steve Smith (talk) (formerly Sarcasticidealist) 07:27, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although the concern has been stricken, the explanation that Shepherd died in 1934 and scrapes the 70 year pma is not correct. Shepherd is American and the atlas is an American publication; by US copyrights, publication date is the primary criteria. Luckily, the map in question was published at least as early as 1911 (allowing hosting on Wikipedia). A German company (its country of origin) holds the copyright, but they have never identified authorship, hence allowing the assertion of {{Anonymous-EU}}. Jappalang (talk) 01:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Comments (minor: expect to switch to support)Support

  • This article has developed well, since its already good standard when I reviewed it at GAN.
  • That is a fabulous "sources and background" section.
  • 1) Should "Uhtred the Bold" be wikilinked to Uhtred of Bamburgh?
  • 2)...that Siward's attack may be interpreted in the context of royal aggression". Can this be more explicit in some way - is the point that Siward's attack may have been an action undertaken on behalf of his king against a rebellious Eadulf? My point is to go beyond saying "in the context of" and explain that Siward was siding with one against the other - if I have read this correctly, of course!
  • 3)"The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle relates that Siward had to call up reinforcements, but despite this, King Edward was successful..." The phrase "but despite this" here leads us to expect that, despite using reinforcements, Siward was unsuccessful. Better I think would be: "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle relates that, although Siward had to call up reinforcements, the campaign against Earl Godwine was successful and led to his temporary banishment."
  • 4)"dating to 1053 x 1055". I'm not familiar with this symbol - what is being denoted here, a date range?
  • 5)"...Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, recension D:" There's that word again :-) Have you considered using the word "version", but wikilinking it to the entry on recension?
  • 6)The very last para of this section on the "Expedition against the Scots" seems out of place (the one beginning "The Annals of Lindisfarne and Durham, written in the early 12th-century..."). This seems a discussion of the event that belongs near the start of the section, rather than after the analysis that precedes it. But I may be wrong.
  • 7)"Siward died more than a decade before the death of Edward the Confessor, but despite this the Domesday Book recorded ..." I'm afraid as an ignorant person, I didn't get why this was "despite" anything. Something to do with chronology of events?
  • 8)I work on two different computer monitors. On one the text in the text boxes is small but (just) readable; on the other it is literally too tiny to form legible letters. Add to that the possibility of a vision-impaired (not blind) user, and I wonder if something can be done about the text box character size? I realise this may create a layout issue, particularly for the long passage under "Emergence and rise to power under Cnut", and it may be that that passage would be best edited in some way. It is a colourful story, but not the shortest of extracts.
  • Really enjoyable article, thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) Wikipedia article take their names after certain conventions. In articles of this nature and time period, these are hardly ever the best for the text of articles, thus I find it that I mostly use redirects or pipes. "Uhtred the Bold" is his nickname and probably how he is best known. Maybe that article should be renamed, maybe it shouldn't, but I just thought it made more sense to call him Uhtred the Bold in this Northumbrian context than "Uhtred of Bamburgh". Not a biggie though.
  • I musn't have made myself clear. I am happy with Uhtred the Bold, it just wasn't wikilinked at all. Don't want you to change the name in the article, piping is good. I just wanted a link. I ran a search and didn't find it earlier in the article. Did I miss one? hamiltonstone (talk) 00:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2) reworded
  • 3) reworded. The "despite this" was used for "despite having needed to call up reinforcements, Siward's side still won"
  • 4) this "x" is used by historians to indicate that something cannot be dated to a specific year. Here "1053 x 1055" means [dates to] some point between 1053 and 1055 [inclusive].
  • 5) Recension is the standard terminology in relation to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. It is less ambiguous than "version". Actually, rendering it "version" might be thought misleading. I think if someone's gonna ponder the point, rather than just skim over it, it is worth learning the meaning of the word. Learning the English language is after all a life-long experience. While I don't ever support making things unnecessarily obscure, the rough meaning of "version" will surely be picked up from the context.
  • 6) I will rework this later, probably using a new source (Aird, Normans and St Cuthbert)
  • 7) The Domeday book records property owners and the values of property 1) on the day of King Edwards death and 2) in 1086. Thus, if Siward died ten years before Edward, he wasn't alive on the day of Edward's death. I added the date 1066 to make the contradiction clearer
  • 8) Adjusted. Had to merge two paragraphs, but this worked out ok.
  • Cheers for the comments. I drop a note here when I'm done with 6). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, done. I think I've addressed the remaining points. Take a look and judge for thyself. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Support - Much improved. The article currently has many problems. The largest being poor phrasing and organisation. Explanations throughout the article seem confusing and badly ordered.
    • The Lead: Is confusing, concentrates too much on naming, and doesn't mention Siwards legacy or connection with York. It also fails to emphasise Siward's power as a man who ruled much of England and was capable of defeating kings. Looking at individual sections:
Siward or Sigurd (Old English: Sigeweard) was an earl in 11th-century northern England. The Old Norse nickname Digri ("the Stout") and Latin translation Grossus ("the Fat") are given to him by near-contemporary texts.[1] The English name Siward or Sigeweard was cognate to the single Old Norse name written variously as Sigvarðr and Sigurðr.
Far too much detail on naming for the lead. The last sentence is not needed, and if Grossus is a translation of Digri, why do we need two different English translations?
Siward's origins and early life, covered by some saga-like tales, is obscure to historians.
Mixed tenses and do we need this at all? it tells us almost nothing.
Probably of Scandinavian origin, perhaps a member of Earl Ulf's kindred,
We have no idea who Earl Ulf is, and he doesn't seem important anyway. Just confuses.
Siward emerged as a powerful regional strongman in England during the reign of Cnut (1016–1035). Cnut was a Scandinavian ruler who conquered England in the 1010s, and Siward was one of the many Scandinavians who came to England in the aftermath of that conquest.
This information is presented back to front, which again confuses the reader. FIRST say Siward came to England with Cnut, then say how he became a strongman. Also, why not say that Cnut is "King Canute"? He is still far better known by this name.
By 1033 Siward was in control of what is now Yorkshire, governing southern Northumbria as earl on Cnut's behalf. Siward's entrenched his position in northern England by marrying Ælfflæd, the daughter of Ealdred, Earl of Bamburgh.
Again, confusing. Would be better as: "..Siward was in control of southern Northumbria, that is, present-day Yorkshire, governing as earl on Cnut's behalf."
After killing a different Earl of Bamburgh in 1041, Siward gained control of all Northumbria. He exerted his power in support of Kings Harthacnut and Edward, assisting them with vital military support and counsel.
"a different Earl of Bambrugh"? That just adds to confusion. "Ealdred's successor as Earl of Bamburgh" would be better. Or "a subsequent Earl of Bambrugh". Also "support" is used twice in the last sentence. Also the sentence doesn't explain who Kings Harthacnut and Edward were - ie. successor Kings of England after Canute. they could be kings of other countries, as written.
    • Sources and background. Should be split. Sources section is too long and impenetrable, and will put people off reading the rest of the article. The background section itself needs re-organising into a more logical sequence. At the moment it is bitty, jumping from subject to subject in no chronological order, and interspersing explanations of what a thegn and ealdorman was.
    • Ancestry. Far too long and confusing. Less is more here. All it needs is the boxed text, a brief explanation and mention of the fact that some others had similar ancestral claims.
    • Career under Cnut, Harold and Harthacnut. Starts with a long recount of a story, which is already in box text and which you admit is fanciful. This needs to be cut. The section on Eril of Lathr is very confusing and over-long. The rest of the historical account also needs a lot of work, copy-editing and making it clearer. Names are often dropped in without explanation of who they are or what their importance is. And important events are not sufficiently explained. An example is:
Cnut died in 1035, while his son Harthacnut remained in Scandinavia. As Harthacnut was geographically unable to take the crown for himself in good time, Harold Harefoot was able to take the kingdom for himself. Although he successfully resisted trouble from the exiled sons of Ethelred the Unready — Alfred Ætheling and Edward (later known as King Edward the Confessor) — Harold died just as Harthacnut was preparing an invasion.[43] Harthacnut reigned in England only two years before he himself died and was peacefully succeeded by Edward in 1042.[44] Frank Barlow speculated on Siward's position during this period, guessing that Siward assumed "a position of benevolent or prudent neutrality".
This does not say how long Harefoot was in control or the date of Harthacnut's take-over. The passage could be better written something like "When Cnut died in 1035, there were a number of rival claimants for his throne. These included his son, Hathacnut, and the nobleman Harold Harefoot, as well as Alfred Ætheling and Edward (later, King Edward the Confessor), the exiled sons of Ethelred the Unready. Isolated in Scandinavia, Harthacnut was unable to prevent Harold Harefoot seizing the crown for himself, however Harefoot died in ....etc.
    • Another example: The section "Expedition against the Scots" has this passage:
The origin of Siward's conflict with the Scots is unclear. According to the Libellus de Exordio, in 1039 or 1040—a year before Siward attacked and killed Eadulf—the Scottish king Donnchad mac Crínáin attacked northern Northumbria and besieged Durham. Within a year, Mac Bethad had deposed killed (sic) Donnchad.
Is Eadulf the Scottish king, or Donnchad mac Crínáin? In fact Eadulf was last mentioned two full sections above this one. Introducing him here, without his title or any context is very confusing. If there is a linkage between the killing of the Duke of Bamburgh and the Scottish invasion, it should be spelled out. Again if Mac bethad killed the person who attacked Northumbria, why is this a reason to attack him? It is unclear.
The Lead: Is confusing, concentrates too much on naming, and doesn't mention Siwards legacy or connection with York. It also fails to emphasise Siward's power as a man who ruled much of England and was capable of defeating kings. Looking at individual sections:
This is valid I think. I've reworked it, though I don't know how you want me to fit York in. I can't think of a way. :(
We have no idea who Earl Ulf is, and he doesn't seem important anyway. Just confuses
Earl Ulf is introduced in the text. The article summary in the lead links him. And yes, he is important as his kin-group is the strongest one in Denmark after Cnut's own, and indeed his descendants (as pointed out in the text) ruled Denmark after Cnut. :)
Far too much detail on naming for the lead. The last sentence is not needed, and if Grossus is a translation of Digri, why do we need two different English translations
Hmm ... the normal translations of both words aren't identical, but I think it's fair to say that Grossus here means "stout" more than "corpulent", so I've merged the translations to avoid the possible confusion you rightly point out.
Mixed tenses and do we need this at all? it tells us almost nothing.
Don't see that. Yes, I wouldn't have written it in if we didn't.
This information is presented back to front, which again confuses the reader. FIRST say Siward came to England with Cnut, then say how he became a strongman. Also, why not say that Cnut is "King Canute"? He is still far better known by this name.
We don't know that Siward came to England with Cnut. His first appearance in reliable sources comes when he is already a regional strongman. Put King Canute in brackets btw.
"a different Earl of Bambrugh"? That just adds to confusion. "Ealdred's successor as Earl of Bamburgh" would be better. Or "a subsequent Earl of Bambrugh". Also "support" is used twice in the last sentence. Also the sentence doesn't explain who Kings Harthacnut and Edward were - ie. successor Kings of England after Canute. they could be kings of other countries, as written.
Yep, I agree. Fixed this.
Sources and background. Should be split. Sources section is too long and impenetrable, and will put people off reading the rest of the article. The background section itself needs re-organising into a more logical sequence. At the moment it is bitty, jumping from subject to subject in no chronological order, and interspersing explanations of what a thegn and ealdorman was.
I split this. I don't see the problem with the sources section. Could you elaborate? The explanations of earl and thegn are there because another reviewer asked me to put them there. I don't really know what to do; removing it might cause the other reviewer displeasure. I think the order in the background section is otherwise fine and logical: one para for England of the time and one specific to Northumbria. That makes sense ... no?
Ancestry. Far too long and confusing. Less is more here. All it needs is the boxed text, a brief explanation and mention of the fact that some others had similar ancestral claims.
OK. Trimmed it.
Career under Cnut, Harold and Harthacnut. Starts with a long recount of a story, which is already in box text and which you admit is fanciful. This needs to be cut. The section on Eril of Lathr is very confusing and over-long.
I've put most of the in-article stuff here into the footnote.
The rest of the historical account also needs a lot of work, copy-editing and making it clearer. Names are often dropped in without explanation of who they are or what their importance is. And important events are not sufficiently explained. An example is: ... This does not say how long Harefoot was in control or the date of Harthacnut's take-over. The passage could be better written something like "When Cnut died in 1035, there were a number of rival claimants for his throne. These included his son, Hathacnut, and the nobleman Harold Harefoot, as well as Alfred Ætheling and Edward (later, King Edward the Confessor), the exiled sons of Ethelred the Unready. Isolated in Scandinavia, Harthacnut was unable to prevent Harold Harefoot seizing the crown for himself, however Harefoot died in ....etc.
I've fixed this a little, and incorporated your suggested rephrasing. Regarding name dropping ... what names to you feel need more detail to be helpful?
Is Eadulf the Scottish king, or Donnchad mac Crínáin? In fact Eadulf was last mentioned two full sections above this one. Introducing him here, without his title or any context is very confusing. If there is a linkage between the killing of the Duke of Bamburgh and the Scottish invasion, it should be spelled out. Again if Mac bethad killed the person who attacked Northumbria, why is this a reason to attack him? It is unclear.
There is no known linkage between the two events. This suggestive [subliminal] style--common in historical writing-- is one I'm fond of, works better if you follow the story. It was quite easy to change this though, and I have done so. This should be a more explicit read now.
Why is Saint Olave's Church, York, referred to in the article, without explanation as "Galmanho"?
Usually a church has two names, one of the saint and one of the place. E.g. St Paul's Cathedral is also London Cathedral (though that's ambiguous now). Should have just written "St Olaf's at Galmanho", which is what I've done now.
Thanks for the comments. Anything else? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The changes you've made so far are a big improvement. Some issues remain though. I haven't time to do a thorough run through now. I will get back with more detailed responses, hopefully tomorrow. Xandar 23:49, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are still quite a few problems with the prose. I may make a few smaller corrections myself, rather than list everything here, and you can see what you make of them. As to my read through:
Lead
It might be useful to add something like: "Several historic sites in the English city of York have connections with Siward."
Sources
"non-representative" - why not "unrepresentative"?
"annalistic" Confusing word. Why not "annal-style"?
"compilations of John of Worcester (compiled between 1124 and 1140)," Compiled used twice.
Background
"Beginning in the reign of Cnut, and lasting through Harold Harefoot and Harthacnut into the reign of Edward the Confessor, Siward's career in northern England spanned the reigns of four different monarchs." Would read better as something like: "Siward's career in northern England spanned the reigns of four different monarchs. It began during the reign of Cnut, and lasted through those of Harold Harefoot and Harthacnut into the early years of Edward the Confessor."
"poor hereditary links to the West Saxon royal house". "weak" links might be better.
"In England, it fell to a handful of newly promoted "ealdormen" or "earls".[12] An ealdorman was an Anglo-Saxon official who ruled a territory, usually a shire or group of shires, on behalf of the king. The term was, by Cnut's reign, interchangeable with the Scandinavian word earl, which supplanted the former by the end of the 11th-century." Too much digression to explain word-meaning breaks up the narrative of this passage. I would suggest:
"In England, it fell to a handful of newly promoted "ealdormen" or "earls ".[12] An ealdorman was an Anglo-Saxon official who ruled a territory, usually a shire or group of shires, on behalf of the king. The term was, by Cnut's reign, interchangeable with the Scandinavian word earl, which supplanted the former by the end of the 11th-century"
"(though there were other earls)" This bracket phrase is ugly and probably unnecessary.
Ancestry
"Historians generally claim Siward to be of Scandinavian origin, something supported by the Vita Ædwardi Regis which says Siward was "[called] Digri in the Danish tongue" (Danica lingua Digara)" Better to say "which states that" rather than "which says".
Career under Cnut, Harold and Harthacnut
"There is little known about Siward's arrival in England," This is very vague. Why not put the more specific; "The exact date of Siward's arrival in England is unknown."
Xandar 02:56, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! All good suggestions, and I have implemented them. I did add "and context" to "The exact date of Siward's arrival in England is unknown", as more than just date was meant, and the next piece about the Vita Waldevi wouldn't make sense otherwise. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:26, 7 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good. I think we've dealt with most of these points. I've also made some clean-up edits to the article - which is actually easier than listing all the points here. Whilst doing this I noticed two very vague sentences:
In the English affairs under Edward the Confessor section: "Besides the help of their retinues, this act was carried out on the "advise" of the three earls." I'm not sure what this means? The retinues were the armies? We already know they joined in the attack. "advise"?? Does this mean "advice". or something else? Why the quotation marks?
In the Death and legacy section: "This, or something else about Siward's career, made the Anglo-Saxonist Frank Stenton declare him "not a statesman, but a Danish warrior of the primitive type." Again very vague. If there is no connection its probably best not to try to force a link with the previous passage, and just use Stenton as a summing up. Xandar 23:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. The advice part was there because the ASC says Edward carried this action out on their advice. I suppose it isn't necessary, so I removed it. I followed your second suggestion too. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:59, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Well I think that concludes my concerns with this article. It is certainly improved enough for me to withdraw my objection and support. Xandar 23:45, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for improving the article! Let me know if you can think of more ways to improve the article.Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the 1st cut. Still needs work, I'm afraid. Alt text should describe only appearance, and should not say anything that's not immediately verifiable by a non-expert sighted reader who's looking only at the image. For the first image File:Death of Earl Siward (cropped).jpg for example, the current alt text says "Face of Earl Siward from Smetham's 1861 painting" (my italics), but almost none of this alt text describes the appearance of the image. Only the italicized word talks about visual appearance. This italicized word should be kept and the rest of the alt text replaced with text that talks only about visual appearance. For more, please see WP:ALT #Flawed and better examples (especially the 3rd example). Eubulides (talk) 22:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, that's much better, but it still needs work. File:Death of Earl Siward (cropped).jpg has alt text "A bearded man wearing a helmet", which is OK but a bit terse for the lead image. How about "Head and shoulders of bearded man in the gloom, wearing a medieval helmet"? The alt text for the 2nd image, Image:EmpireNorth.JPG focuses on unimportant visual details "red color" while omitting the most important gist of the image: namely, where were Cnut's dominions? The alt text for the 3rd image doesn't say that it's a copper coin, which is the first thing you see. The alt text for Image:Death of Earl Siward (Smetham).jpg contains details like "Smetham's 1861" which are not visually apparent, and words like "painting" which aren't needed. Could you please have another go? Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments, leaning toward supporting. It's looking good on a surface reading. A couple things:
    • "The region however was more fragmented than this might indicate." Quite an ambiguous "this"; I'm not sure what you're referring to. You have a bit of a penchant for "this", but the others are mostly clear.
    • Should the long quotation in the "Career under Cnut, Harold and Harthacnut" section begin with "[A]fter"?
--Andy Walsh (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I think the logic of the point Bolton was making (namely, that the picture often given of two ealdorman controlling the whole region is wrong) was being followed more closely than the article text. I've adjusted here.
  • Is this something that is done? I gotta be honest, never noticed that. Good device! Yes, as you can probably guess, "a" is in lower case because I started quoting the text midway through a sentence.
  • I'll watch out for "this" in future. Writing takes longer than reading, so the writer and reader operate in a different time-zones. I thought I sorted most of such repetitions when I warped into the reader time-zone, but I didn't catch a proliferation of thises. Is this particularly noticeable? ;) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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