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December 17

Adding brief summaries of articles

In my own work, I have had to edit down hundreds of long Wikipedia articles to just 1 or 2 pages. It would be a shame to let this valuable work go to waste. These executive summaries would be a valuable resource for people who don't have the time or the will to read and digest massive amounts of data. Many users just want to see a really good boiled-down version of the larger article. However, when I tried to submit such a summary, I got a nasty message saying that I was "vandalizing" the edit page and that I would be kicked off Wikipedia if I did it again. What's the deal? I am making a legitimate attempt to improve this site. Who are these people that submit all this content and how do I become one of them? 63.168.218.2 (talk) 00:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Questions about edit Wikipedia should go to the Wikipedia:Help Desk. However, I'll say this: While summaries are good, adding them to the existing article just duplicates content and makes it harder for people that want the detail to find it. The summaries need to go somewhere else where people that want them can find them. Perhaps they could be subpages of articles, or on a different site altogether. If you want to suggest that we include summaries somewhere, do so at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). That said, the lede of an article should be a summary of it, although it should be shorter than 1 or 2 pages in most cases - you might want to try improving the ledes of some articles. --Tango (talk) 00:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

I was going to mention Tango's last point. If any of the articles you summarised are missing ledes, then a summary of the article would probably work there. Other than that, it sounds like the sort of thing which (dare I say it) would be a useful extra project within the WIkimedia collection - Wikipedia's biggest and/or most complex articles summarised. Sort of a bit like what WP simple English does, but with the article content rather than the language use. Grutness...wha? 00:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Depending on how technical they are in their shortened form, they may be suitable for the Simple English Wikipedia. Dismas|^(talk) 05:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

They might also be very usefully translated for non-English editions of Wikipedia, which might not have any version at all of the article (Look on the left-hand side of an article to see which language editions, if any, have articles on the same subject). In one sense the project for a printed paper edition of Wikipedia (Wikipedia 1.0) is partly such a collection of summaries as Grutness describes. See also WP:LEAD for the conventions about the summary paragraphs that usually begin longer articles. ¶ Could you give us an example of what you summarized, and where it was rejected? I can't find one in your list of contributions (but that list may just be from one of several computers you use to edit Wikipedia.) —— Shakescene (talk) 09:43, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The OP mystifies me. They "had to edit down hundreds of Wikipedia articles" in their "own work" whatever that is, which means they did it for a reason. It's nice that the OP regards the results as "valuable work", a "valuable resource and "really good" but only the OP is responsible if the reason was a bad one so that the results have gone to waste. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:12, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Does Steven Seagal wear a toupee?

Does anyone know? Just trying to settle a disagreement. --95.148.108.56 (talk) 01:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to prove a negative - I can't find any credible sources that say he does - but that doesn't conclusively prove that he doesn't. I strongly suggest that whoever is on the "yes, he wears a toupee" side of the debate should present their evidence. We can then examine the quality of that evidence and give you a better idea of whether it's credible or not. SteveBaker (talk) 03:38, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

If you enter ["Steven Seagal" toupee] in google, there are plenty of references, but as you suggest, likely none of them would pass muster with wikipedia, so it may just be groundless gossip. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

What is provable is how his career went into the toilet afer he got himself killed off in Executive Decision.C.B.Lilly 04:43, 17 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Invasion of Iraq

Which countries actually took part in the invasion of Iraq? More specifically, was Spain part of the invasion? There is a disagreement about it on the Iraq War article, and I can't really find any reliable sources that are specific enough on the matter just searching the internet.--Stinging Swarm ^talk 03:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Spain was. The full list is here, midway down infobox. Is there a disagreement about Spain's involvement? I remember distinctly that spain was involved. Wasn't it one of the purported reasons for the Madrid bombings? Shadowjams (talk) 03:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's a cite [1] Shadowjams (talk) 03:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for the cite. An anon is disputing the fact that Spain took part in the invasion, claiming they only joined afterwords. So Spain was removed from the list. There seems to be a bit of unreferenced editing going on to that list, so I don't really trust it as of right now! However, the source you provided will help to resolve it.--Stinging Swarm ^talk 04:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

No, there were no Spanish troops present during the invasion, they began deploying around the middle of July. There were non-combat personnel, including either a field hospital or hospital ship (or both). I'll look for some references.—eric 04:37, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Operation Iraqi Freedom—By the Numbers

(2003, July 11). "AFTER THE WAR; Spaniards on Way To Back U.S. in Iraq." The New York Times. A5.

"The Spanish ship Galacia delivered humanitarian aid and a field hospital to Umm Qasr" Cordesman, A. H. (2003). "8/9 April." The Iraq War: Strategy, tactics, and military lessons. p. 112.

Apparently 200 combat troops were sent to defend Turkey, and around 900 personnel aboard a "hospital ship" (probably Galacia) including some to work on mine clearing and chemical decontamination.—eric 05:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

A Spanish flotilla of three ships and 900 personnel departed Spain in March and arrived in the Northern Arabian Gulf on 8 April. The next day, the amphibious landing ship Galacia sailed up the KAA waterway to Umm Qasr and off-loaded a forty-bed field hospital with fifty-three medical personnel, a biological and chemical decontamination team, and a construction battalion. Cowden, A. (2005). The Naval Institute almanac of the U.S. Navy. pp. 25-6.

—eric 05:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Very helpful, thanks a lot. So it seems they supported the invasion with personnel, but did not directly take part in combat operations. Thanks again.--Stinging Swarm ^talk 20:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Higher education in EU

I've been hearing for some time now that in certain countries of Europe higher education is either free or very cheep. Today I came across a Danish University advertising on Facebook offering free education in English for EU citizens. So is there a catch or do some countries really have free and good higher education ? ~~Xil (talk) 10:03, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, in some countries, at least for undergraduates. For example, in Scotland (see, for example, [2]). Note that in Scotland undergraduate study is free for Scottish students and also for EU students not from the UK - but not for English, Welsh or Northern Irish students. Until the late 1990s, it was free throughout the UK. Warofdreams talk 10:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you know in what other countries I can get free education as a EU citizen ? ~~Xil (talk) 14:30, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

You can find details on page two of the latest edition of Key Data on Higher Education in Europe - basically, in some nations it depends on which institution you want to study at, and which course you are taking. I believe, although I can't find a reference, that in any of those nations which offer free tuition to nationals, they must offer the same to nationals of other EU countries. Warofdreams talk 15:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is true. Higher education in Sweden is completely free for any citizen of the EU. Belisarius (talk) 17:53, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

A nitpick but that doesn't really say it's true. However the fact that in both Sweden and Denmark are offering it, strongly suggests it is mandated otherwise it's a bit odd that they are. I looked for a clear cut ref but couldn't find anything either. Surprisingly neither European Higher Education Area nor Educational policies and initiatives of the European Union seem to mention anything and Bologna process only mentions that fees have sometimes been raised as a result of it however lots of refs mention that EU citizens pay local fees in specific EU countries (obviously if you have no fee for locals then a local fee is no fee), e.g. [3] Top-up fees#How the fees work. I just can't find anything that mentions that this is legislated or where it's legislated. Of course it's often true that EU citizens have to be treated as locals in EU countries Nil Einne (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

In the EU member states have a general obligation to treat citizens of other member states no less favourably than their own citizens, so a specific requirement for one sector (e.g. education) would not be needed. There are a few limited exceptions (for example suffrage, armed service and membership of a diplomatic corps). DuncanHill (talk) 13:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Also Norway - I wrote a bit about that in a reply here: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009_November_18#Free_University_Education. A small catch might be that the Scandinavian countries (where higher education is, in general, tax-financed, like health services are), undergraduate higher education tends to be mostly available in the national language. I know they give language courses to foreign students at least here in Oslo, though. And there's a lot of good graduate (master's) programmes available in English. Jørgen (talk) 08:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

How do you all figure education is "free"? You're paying for it through taxation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually if you're coming from some other EU country I don't think you are Nil Einne (talk) 16:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You're paying taxes to support schooling in your own country, right? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:48, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not the same as paying directly. It's hard to explain why, but...well, it's just not the same. (If you don't understand, that's probably why you'll never have free health care :)) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:13, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The difference is that you pay for it whether you use it or not. That means using it doesn't cost you any more than you would be paying anyway, which is a pretty close to "free". (In the UK we use the phrase "free at the point of use" to describe things like the NHS.) --Tango (talk) 20:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The University on Facebook was advertising undergraduate and graduate courses in English to people of whatever country Facebook thought I was in (It was saying free to Polish, when I was in Estonia, know it has figured out correctly I'm in Latvia). I currently am studying in another country for a fee, which would count as huge in my country, I wouldn't mind trying to transfer, if I found school with as interesting courses or considering free graduate studies. Paying taxes seems to be way smaller burden than paying tuition fee (and let's not forget cost of rent and food). The link to pdf User:Warofdreams posted shows error when I try to open it, so any countries other than Scandinavian ? ~~Xil (talk) 19:38, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It's down for me too, at the moment, but the Google View is working. It mentions Denmark, Estonia, Ireland, Cyprus, Greece, Slovenia and Scotland as completely free, plus Finland, Sweden and public universities in Norway as requiring only a subscription to a student organisation, some students getting free tuition in Latvia, and certain classes of programme in the Czech Republic and Spain as being free. Some other countries are listed further down as having no tuition fees - Hungary, Romania, Malta and some areas of Germany - I'm not clear whether there are other charges which led to them being omitted from the first section of states where study can be regarded as free. Warofdreams talk 20:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I study in Estonia, it most definitely is not completely free. Are you sure they don't mean state funded study places for best students or something like that ? ~~Xil (talk) 03:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

How do I log unto Tagged when it says "service unavailable"?

For several months I had been using the social networking site called TAGGED.COM. But recently, I just discovered that I can neither read my mails nor get across to my friends. Anytime I try to log in, the site shows a "service unavailable" sign. What alternative way can I use to log unto this site?

If you can't even get to their home page, the site is probably down and you won't find an alternative means of access. You'll just have to wait until it's up again, probably in a few hours time. All websites go down every now and then.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:28, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Their home page is up - but perhaps one of the servers behind that is dead. SteveBaker (talk) 20:01, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a website... downforeveryoneorjustme.com - maybe worth checking on there. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 09:13, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Current Lumber Prices

What is an average cost per board foot to a consumer for Honduras Mahogany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arilynmithra (talk • contribs) 14:34, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

This will almost certainly depend on your location. Marco polo (talk) 14:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

The New England area in the USA —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arilynmithra (talk • contribs) 15:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

More specific location. Boston should have a very different price then Bangor. Googlemeister (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Metrowest Massachusetts —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arilynmithra (talk • contribs) 15:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, if you order online, the cost won't vary too much within the United States. This vendor sells Honduran Mahogany for $4.50 per board foot, though the website doesn't discuss shipping charges. Those are unlikely to exceed $3 per board foot, even to Massachusetts, particularly on a large order. That vendor may have a high minimum order, such as 100 board feet. This site sells boards with one straight edge for 15.24 for orders of less than 20 board feet. The shipping cost via UPS ground for an order of 10 board feet would add about $3.50 per board foot. Marco polo (talk) 16:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

December 18

Internet connections in Micronations

If I made a new micronation on water (something like Sealand), how could I get an Internet connection there? 192.103.98.4 (talk) 06:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Satellite uplink. 218.25.32.210 (talk) 07:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

If you were in sight of land, a microwave link would be a pretty good solution. Or IP over Avian Carriers SteveBaker (talk) 13:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

If you're on the cheap and within say 300 km LOS of land you could just try Long-range Wi-Fi [4] [5]. Mind you you'll want to be careful that you don't use too high powered a transmitter or you'll give your neigbours an excuse to invade you. P.S. Before any nitpicks, yes I do appreciate any wifi is a microwave link Nil Einne (talk) 16:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you planning an invasion of Rockall, perhaps, and wanting to edit Wikipedia from there? Deor (talk) 20:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You should take an umbrella with you. Googlemeister (talk) 20:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Winter waves breaking over the islet Rockall in 1943

But where can you get 300km line of sight to land? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

From your 7000m tower (can that be right?). --203.202.43.53 (talk) 02:10, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Based on my calculation, the towers at both ends only need to be about 1767 m tall, assuming that they are of equal height. --173.49.11.197 (talk) 14:33, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

December 19

Rib it.

I asked a serious question recently about whether British POW's continued to receive their Service Pay whilst incarcerated by foreign captors - and received a response (amongst other more intelligent responses)from Baseball saying RIBIT. I am English and have a degree in British English but admit to not knowing what RIBIT means. It sounds like the sound a cartoon animal character such as a grasshopper might make but, being unfamiliar with those characters and sounds I am left at a loss as to Baseball's intentions. Could someone here, perhaps more expert in the vagaries of the Engish Language than myself, please elucidate? Thanks. 92.21.131.118 (talk) 00:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

His response was to a user with "Froggie" as part of the name, and "ribbit" is a common transliteration of the sound a frog makes. Whether the response was supposed to be more than that, only that editor can say. I hope the well-intentioned and useful responses were helpful to you. --LarryMac | Talk 00:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

That, combined with the thought that "to rib" is to make fun of. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:43, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Fine - and thanks for the explanation. But I haven't yet managed to see the "funny" part. 92.8.216.4 (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

A link to the archive might be useful. Your contributions don't have the edit... Vimescarrot (talk) 11:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It's still on the page, just search "British POW". --LarryMac | Talk 11:57, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Welcome to the club 92.8, a lot of people have difficulty in seeing the 'funny' side of Bugs's comments. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Comedy is always a matter of individual taste. I don't find South Park funny, but some others do. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I suppose there's no sense pointing out that people can choose to not watch South Park whereas people on the RefDesk apparently have no choice in whether to be exposed to your humour or not? Matt Deres (talk) 22:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

No one forces either you or me to read anything. It is freely chosen. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You knew what he meant. APL (talk) 01:53, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If Comedy Central somehow starts embedding South Park into the reference desk, then you may use them as an excuse by comparison. APL (talk) 00:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

This discussion doesn't belong here - if you have complaints about an editor, please express them on the "discussion" page for the Ref Desk, where I'm sure you'll get sympathetic treatment. SteveBaker (talk) 02:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

travel from England to France

Considering both convenience and cost, generally what’s the best way to get from London to Caen? The Eurostar via Paris, or to Portsmouth and then by ferry? (Or some other alternative?) —Mathew5000 (talk) 00:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Definitely the Eurostar via Paris is the most convenient route. From what I've been able to find online, ferries between Portsmouth and Ouistreham (Caen's port) take 7 hours just for the crossing. Then there is the 1.5 to 2 hour trip from London Waterloo to Portsmouth, waiting time, and the shuttle bus to take you the 12 miles from the ferry terminal in Ouistreham to the town of Caen. (The shuttle bus runs only during the day time. At night, you face a €40 taxi fare.) This easily adds up to a 10-11 hour trip. The price would be about £87 single without the taxi fare from the port to Caen. Eurostar gets you from London (St. Pancras) to Caen in just over 6 hours, including a transfer by metro between stations in Paris. The price if you need to travel tomorrow would be €228 (£202). However, if you can book a couple of weeks in advance (outside of the Christmas-New Years travel season), the Eurostar/SNCF single fare drops to €65.50 (£58.10). If you are strapped for cash, need to travel soon, and don't mind an 11-hour journey, then you should take the ferry. However, if you are planning your trip in advance, there's no reason not to take the train. (By the way, I compared cheap airfares from Luton to Paris CDG. The total price (including transfers to and from the airports) ends up being similar to the train, but the travel time is more like 8-9 hours because of all the transfers and waiting.) Marco polo (talk) 01:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, absolutely agree. Have made the trip many times and, with a car, the ferry is the best option. But otherwise the train every time. You may find better fares if you book your trip in two sections. (British Rail fares are horrendus. e.g. I came from Montpellier on the south coast of France 1st class to Lille (4 hours). Changed to Eurostar. The second class Eurostar for a one-hour journey was more expensive than the French rail's 4 hour 1st class! Depending on age SNCF have some good Travel Card and discount offers. Check out their site http://www.sncf.fr/en_EN/flash/. Have a great time.Froggie34 (talk) 15:31, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I've done the trip by ferry, and it can be very cheap; the ferry often sells seat-only tickets for around £10 return, and the shuttle bus to Caen is also cheap. It is, as stated above, a long journey. While taking the overnight ferry means you can sleep through it, that's not very comfortable, unless you pay extra for a cabin. I believe that some sort of fast ferry is due on the route from Spring, but I suspect that the prices might be correspondingly higher. Warofdreams talk 18:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks so much for the detailed answers! That will be helpful. —Mathew5000 (talk) 20:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course if you were planning a trip this Christmas [6] [7]... However it's a risk you had whatever method you chose Nil Einne (talk) 12:51, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Mike Krzyzewski

Does coach k wear a toupee? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.136.194.75 (talk) 00:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Just while traveling from England to France. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

By Eurostar or ferry? --Anon, 01:20 UTC, December 19, 2009.

Fire Extinguishers

1. What are the gases available for clean agent type portable fire extinguishers? 2. What are their ODP level? 3. Are they useful for all type fire extinguishers? 4. Has they got any approval EN, BIS etc? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.212.91.246 (talk) 04:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Our articles on fire extinguisher and ozone depletion potential should give you a start on your essay, but you will need to do some more research. Dbfirs 07:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

King Farouk's tortoise?

A recently created article in German Wikipedia states that King Farouk's former pet tortoise died at the age of 270 in Cairo's zoo 2006. This was mentioned in German media the 7th/8th April 2006, e.g. [8]. As I could not find any English source to confirm even any detail of this story, I deem it to be a belated April Fool's hoax to which German media were taken in. Can anyone help with this? --KnightMove (talk) 12:45, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Are the German media somehow unreliable? Why would an english source be needed. What is magical about the English language that its sources are trusted more than sources written in other languages? --Jayron32 19:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not able to do research in Arab, and English is the most-used international language, isn't it? How likely might it be that an event in Egypt is reported by German media, but not by English ones? --KnightMove (talk) 03:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't smell right, that's for sure. According to our article on Darwin's supposed pet tortoise, the oldest tortoise lived to the age of 188, meaning that King Farouk's tortoise magically passed that total by nearly a century with nobody noticing. Of course, that article is then contradicted by our article on longest-lived organisms, though the claim for 250 years in the case of Adwaita has some serious holes in it as well. Any claim to suddenly being the longest lived anything needs serious citations for believability. Matt Deres (talk) 00:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

face skin

Well thats no medical advise i need as such at all. But i would just like to know something realted to the face skin in general. We have the winter season in my country and m afraid always to wash my face with the cold water. i always use a lil bit more warm than the luke warm water. Will that effect my skin and give me wrinkles. Becaue somebody told me to wash face always with the cold water and that keeps the skin wrinkle free. Expect an honest opinion..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.228.59.66 (talk) 14:23, 19 December 2009 (UTC) (Question placed in separate section. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 14:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC))

Can somebody tell me that where my question is moved ? In which seprate section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.228.59.66 (talk) 16:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry it's here! It now has its own title and can be edited separately. Now to answer your question. Cold will tighten and tone the muscles and tissues of the face, and this may be where the idea came from regarding it prevents wrinkles. However, on its own cold water will not adequately clean the face, even if you use soap, and so hotter water is recommended. Some people recommend to clean the face with water as hot as you can stand on your face, but then to splash cold water on the face to tighten the tissues. Personally I think wrinkles are more a product of genetics and environment: if you smoke, for example, you will get wrinkles regardless of what you put on your face. One sure way to get wrinkles is to worry, so do what you think suits your face and stop worrying! --TammyMoet (talk) 16:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Wrinkles are going to come with age, so the only sure method of avoiding them is to to die young and leave a good-looking corpse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanx "TammyMoet". I don know who you are but thanx for the advise. I got it now. I dont smoke though... but there are lot of tensions i have right now regarding my work so i think thats could be the reason and yes i undsnd that as my age would grow i would get wrinkles but who needs the untimely wrinkles. So thanx a lot...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.228.59.66 (talk) 17:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Christmas

Where do the colors red and green come from for Christmas? --70.245.189.217 (talk) 15:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

That was discussed at some length in one of the recent ref desk pages. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you gave a reference to where this discussion is. 87.113.128.40 (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Or the OP could look for it. He won't learn anything if someone else does his work for him. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Or someone could show him how to do it. I typed the words 'christmas red green' into the Reference desk search box and got this result, I hope that helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.109.225.220 (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Name of a footwear

I forgot what it is called. It's something that you wear around your lower legs, sometimes over your boots, and sometimes secured using a strap, that prevents snow, insects, dirt etc. from getting into your boots or pant legs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.49.9.184 (talk) 16:32, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Gaiters. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 18:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --173.49.9.184 (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Could also be puttees. 89.243.188.42 (talk) 20:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

And also Spats. 222.152.174.224 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC).

Do Androids Dream of...

Whilst reading a few questions back about King Farouk's tortoise, I was reminded of a quote printed at the front of some copies of Philip K Dick's book Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. I rememeber it was something about a giant tortoise which was given to a king by Christopher Colombus(?) or something. Anyone know what this is or where I could find out online? Could even shed some light on the above question.91.109.225.220 (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be the quote at [9] (this also appears in some apparent copyright violations of the entire novel online). The tortoise was apparently given by Captain Cook. Warofdreams talk 18:57, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah, see Tu'imalila.91.109.225.220 (talk) 19:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If you are into tortoises then another novel which includes one is À rebours by Huysmans. 89.243.188.42 (talk) 20:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Time to expand the List of fictional turtles (and tortoises). I also added the one from Momo. Felis cheshiri (talk) 12:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It's just Turtles all the way down. SteveBaker (talk) 02:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Underwear

Alright, so I was watching this video, and my eyes couldn't help but be drawn to his undergarments, due to the fact that he made the mistake of wearing white underwear with white clothing, so therefore his underwear showed through the clothing (I can't believe his bandmates said nothing to him about his clothing choice, lol). Me and my friend were discussing what type of underwear he was wearing. She keeps insisting it's a thong, I said it ain't a thong unless it disappears into his ass. So who's right? --24.185.203.231 (talk) 22:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC) Oh, and in case it's too much work to sit through the whole video, you can fast forward to 1:45. --24.185.203.231 (talk) 22:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks like normal Briefs to me. Have to ask...what could he wear under white-clothing that wouldn't be a mistake? Seems of any colour white is the best one to go with (unless you're trying to make the pants stand out more). Similarly were he going 'commando' that video would be, well, not my kind of viewing ny156uk (talk) 23:40, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Nude or black underwear would have been a wiser choice, it would not have shown through (I'm a girl, I should know these things, and so should he, since he was gay), especially considering the material the outfit was made of (looked like spandex or lycra to me). Wearing white underwear with white clothes just highlights the undies, you have no idea how many times I've seen women make that mistake, particularly in the summertime. Of course, if he were going commando, well his bandmates would probably be too busy rolling on the floor laughing to play their instruments. On the other hand, he'd be displaying his glorious God-given assets (I could tell in the video he had a cute ass, among other things), and that would've made the performance much more enjoyable for me ;). --24.185.203.231 (talk) 23:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Ignoring all the other stuff in your post, black underwear and white clothing will do nothing but show the black underwear, especially if the pants/whatever are tight and/or thin. Anyway, that could be considered a thong in a number of instances, but usually is probably not thin enough to be definitively called one. Still, anal floss not a requirement. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 04:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Taking the fabric of the outfit he was wearing into question, you're right about that. Sorry if I was gushing a bit at the end of my last post. :) --24.189.85.202 (talk) 06:30, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be some agreement with 24 that flesh coloured may be better [10] www.ehow.com/how_4464787_look-good-white-pants.html (blacklisted site) although not everyone agrees they're right even if they're writing for the same site www.ehow.com/how_4471780_choose-which-underwear-wear-under.html . I can't offer any much more from personal experience although it did occur to me flesh coloured may work better. According to those refs, black may work if you have fairly dark skin and I can buy that but Freddie Mercury wasn't really that dark so I'm not convinced black underwear would work well with any white fabric. And I'd definitely need stronger convincing that Rupert Grint for example should wear black underwear if he's wearing white. Nil Einne (talk) 15:30, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It might be a two-piece, with a seperate unitard and tights. The "underwear" could be where the two parts overlap. He is wearing the top back to front. 89.242.211.123 (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Home Alone Movies, and real-life

Just watched one of my christmas favourites Home Alone 2 (lost in New York) and got me thinking about how crazy the things the bad-guys get happening to them are. In the spirit of christmas, and appreciating this isn't ideally suited to the refdesk (hoping good-will will let it pass) i'm asking...What would be the likely real impact (healthwise) to an individual based on what they are subjected to (ignoring whether what happens is realistic or not). To get started some things that occur are

• Happens to Marv
• Electricuted with his hands on the taps
• Falling 2 floors (walking through the door)
• Bricks thrown from a 3 story building, hitting head
• Happens to Harry
• Head/hat set on fire, dunks head in bleach
• Bag of tools drops on his head
• Happens to both
• Plumbing pipe (metal) smashes them in the face, knocking them down though a hole to the floor, then drops on them afterwards. ny156uk (talk) 23:36, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

• • Any one of most of the items listed would likely either be fatal or cause devastating injury. This is Three Stooges style / cartoon style violence, where getting a skull-fracturing injury results in an "Ouch!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, yeah I kinda guessed, was hoping to add my comedy-fun home-alone high with a list of 'x broken bones, 2 heart-murmours, 70% burns on scalp etc. etc. rather than a general overall approach (though appreciate not really what the refdesk is for :-)) ny156uk (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Marv is probably dead from any of those. Harry probably has a bad concussion, maybe death. Boy, it would have been a different movie if Marv had just died early on. "We the court rule that the defendant, Kevin McCallister, had many other options to avail himself of before resorting to premeditated murder..." --Mr.98 (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I'm not advocating trying this, I would have thought it very unlikely that someone would die from electrocution in the USA. I've had a number of 240v shocks and am still here - I would think that 110v would make you jump, but is unlikely to kill you. --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:08, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an expert either, but I think it makes a lot of difference whether the "path of least resistance" goes through your heart or spine. Current that goes in one finger and goes out through a different finger on the same hand is a lot less dangerous than current that goes in one hand and out the other. So the kind of electrical accident where you're fiddling with something with your hands and you brush your hand up against both contacts is much more survivable than the kind where you're standing in a bath-tub and touch one conductor of an exposed wire with your hand. APL (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I think Harry would survive the traumas mentioned. It's surprisingly hard to kill somebody from a blow to the head unless the impact occurs in the region of the medulla oblongata (interfering with life support functions) or breaks the skull. The bleach might cause his death from skin cancer in later years, perhaps after early release from prison on the grounds of good behaviour and having shown remorse, which again would have been a very different movie. Felis cheshiri (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Bleach exposure would hardly cause skin cancer? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 14:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

"While the authors suggested that using these cleaning products may significantly increase the cancer risk, this conclusion appears to be hypothetical"... so no, probably not. (There was a recent scare about hydrogen peroxide hair bleach, too.) Felis cheshiri (talk) 16:08, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

With regard to the other methods of death, our article on Electric shock#Issues affecting lethality discusses the likelihood of death arising from this - it appears to suggest that common household electrics are not that likely to kill someone, although it is possible. The article on defenestration doesn't cover the likely effects of falling a couple of stories, but I'd suggest that it would depend on how you land, and on what - it might well lead to broken limbs rather than death. Warofdreams talk 17:13, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

December 20

Celeb question

On page 38 of the most recent edition of The New Yorker, "World Changers," there's one of those myTouch3g ads. Who's the guy with Phil Jackson and Whoopi Goldberg? The ad says his first name is Jesse. I'm sure I ought to know who this guy is, but I have no clue and he appears in a lot of ads. I wish I knew how to provide a link. Thanks. InspectorSands (talk) 04:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

If you're referring to this ad then it is Jesse G. James. Dismas|^(talk) 04:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the same guy. Thanks. Is that show so famous? Never heard of the guy. Feeling old all of a sudden. InspectorSands (talk) 05:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Purely WP:OR here but I know that I can't go for more than a week or two without seeing an WCC shirt or hat. And not just on teenage kids but adults as well. So, yeah, it's popular. Dismas|^(talk) 07:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

That show is kind of popular, but the only reason that guy is famous is because he's married to Sandra Bullock. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Not really. One could easily claim he got to marry Sandra Bullock because he had the famous show first. The show was on the air from June 2002, and Sandra married him on July 16, 2005. He was already somewhat famous even before Monster Garage as he had done numerous motorcycles for many famous people. I probably could have identified him before 2000 on appearance alone. Monster Garage was created with him on is specifically because he was already well known. Now, the Teutul family probably did become famous because of their show, but Jesse James has been well known for quite a while. --Jayron32 21:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Okay, then "famous to some people", because it did not even occur to me that there were two motorcycle shows... Adam Bishop (talk) 22:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Monster Garage was a car show. Jesse James was already well-known for his motorcycle work well before he was ever on that show. Well, as you say, well-known among some people. But both Monster Garage and the Bullock marriage were products of his fame, not causes of it. His primary source of fame is making custom motorcycles for rich people. At least its a craft. Some people are famous for much less. --Jayron32 04:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Car Accident

Our brand new car was recently involved in a front end collision. The damage is relatively minor on the whole but I am wondering whether the damage bill is likely to be greater due to the car being turbocharged. The front mount intercooler has sustained significant damage and as a result, I am left wondering whether there is likely to have been any damage to the relevant pipes to the turbo (likely) and, most significantly, if the engine would be affected. (Possibly turbo as well?)

Also, is there any other damage I should look for in such accidents?

Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added on 06:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not a car mechanic, but my first car had a front-end accident where it skidded on black ice into the back of a car which had a towbar fitted. Despite the only visible damage being a towbar-shaped dent in the bumper, the car was a write-off because the impact had "cracked the sub-frame", which I believe is a part of the chassis. Should be worth getting it checked over professionally. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

If you have insurance, it's best to just let them sort it out. Dismas|^(talk) 11:28, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

@TammyMoet, a subframe is part of what monocoque cars have in place of a chassis the length of the vehicle. --203.202.43.53 (talk) 02:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So now I know! Thanks for telling me - it's been 30 years since that accident and I never knew until now! --TammyMoet (talk) 09:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Dear Questioner, you had two options here: a) go and ask a professional car mechanic b) ask random strangers on the internet. What made you go with option b? DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Option (c) was to take it to Car Talk, where the Magliozzi brothers would have given him a good ribbing for considering option (b). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The intercooler probably needs replaced, then, so sure, it's one more part to fix. Might be more expensive due to this. I doubt you'd get significant engine damage from a minor collision, but the way to know for sure is to get it looked at. Friday (talk) 18:48, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

market structure

Is nestle milk Pak Pakistan a monopolistic or perfect competition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.37.43.52 (talk) 09:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Which teacher gave you this question? :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework.

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Checking monopoly and perfect competition might give you some clues. Grutness...wha? 21:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Australian search details - town/cities,postcodes,region,states

Sorry but I am at a bit of a lose end searching for australian town/cities,postcodes,regions and states as I want to down load the complete excell spread sheet as per below example;but for the whole of Australia

EXAMPLE

Town/city, postcode, region, state

Sussex Inlet,2540, Southcoast, NSW

I notice that you have the information but I cannot find it all together at one point.

Please advise if you can be of help.

Many thanks

Geofmac —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geofmac (talk • contribs) 13:45, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You could download the entire Postcode database from Australia Post here. It's available in CSV. Nanonic (talk) 14:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

porcelain trade marks

what porcelain company used a gold bell as its trade mark?Beanyxxx (talk) 15:24, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

This site (http://www.oldandsold.com/pottery/usa3.shtml) has pages and pages of marks, a bell appears reasonably common so you'd need to look and try find one that matches. On the page I linked there is 'Bellmark Pottery Co, Trenton, N.J" so it could be them. ny156uk (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

first class

On an average flight did anyone actually pay the full $10,000 for a ticket or is everybody an upgrade? Blueframe (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I think the airlines keep this information confidential for competitive reasons (and to not anger all their full-fare-paying First Class passengers), but this chatroom thread has some allegedly knowledgeable people talking about this question. One guy claimed it was an average of 1 full-fare First Class revenue seat per international flight (he probably means transoceanic), and the others have some sort of corporate discount. It's all OR, so take it with a grain of salt; I haven't found any real statistics. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:22, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

A good long time ago I remember a newspaper (Sunday Times I think) showed a seating plan for a particular flight. There was a huge range of fares paid for the same class of seat. It really does pay to shop around.Froggie34 (talk) 18:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

ways of getting into first class

without paying or being a long member of a rewards program? Blueframe (talk) 16:33, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

This is a list of some tips on trying to get upgrades. Mostly you have to pay or use your miles. Not listed in that article: Be an airline employee. They get to fly for close to free, and are seated in First Class if the space is available. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

But if there isn't space in First they may have to make do with a jump seat, which is probably worse than economy/coach. --Tango (talk) 17:38, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Enter a relationship with a member of the cabin crew. Fly on his/her flights. Take holidays together, pay Econ, get on-board upgrade from friendly crew.Froggie34 (talk) 18:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

A rich dumb blonde boards an aeroplane to Las Vegas and the stewardess directs her to her seat at the back of First Class. The blonde protests "I wanna sit in the front row!". "Sorry Miss, your ticket says your seat is not for that row". The blonde exsplodes "Don't you know who I am? I am B___ S____ and I can sit anywhere I want, and if I don't get what I want I'll buy this airline and start by firing your ass...". The stewardess calls the pilot on the intercom: "Sir, we have a problem here. One passenger won't take her seat and regulations say we can't take off until everyone is seated. She seems upset." The pilot replies "Send her to the cockpit and I'll have a word with her". So the blonde, still protesting goes to the cockput. A minute later she emerges and quietly goes to her proper seat. The stewardess calls the pilot again "Sir what did you say to her, she seemed so determined to get her way?". The pilot replied "I told her the front seats go to Chicago." Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

When traffic's heavy and more people want seats than a flight has seats available, an airline will sometimes seek volunteers to be "bumped" off that flight and take another, often with a first-class upgrade and a free ticket coupon thrown in. That happened to me when I was transferring between America West planes in their hub at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas at the same time that the city was hosting a huge COMDEX (computer expo) in October 1991. The downside is that you should be prepared to hang around the airport until the next open flight. (Being Las Vegas, the airport had no pinball machines, only one-armed bandits which held no interest for me.) —— Shakescene (talk) 04:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Being a doctor helps. My brother-in-law always registers for his flights as "Dr So-and-so" rather than "Mr So-and-so", and frequently gets a free upgrade. (Of course the "price" is that you're obliged to help out in a medical emergency if needed.) Mitch Ames (talk) 10:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

My Dad gets the same treatment - he has a PhD in botany! --Tango (talk) 18:22, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

His services could come in handy if a passenger was toting a jet-lagged philodendron. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:40, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Reebok - Irish's edition?

Does Reebok produce an Irish edition for its shoes? I mean, one without the Union Flag?--Quest09 (talk) 19:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You could phone Lifestyle Sports at Dun Laoghaire Shopping Centre, Co. Dublin Tel. 01 2301762 and ask. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 22:23, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Eating Human Faeces

Literature and stories that I have read (especially European literature) seem to have a heavy emphasis on the consumption of human faeces. Sometimes there is a fetishistic/sexual motive for it, a la the drinking of urine and golden showers, but simply the eating of the faeces is often either metaphor or a plot device. For instance, in the 1975 film Salo, eating of feces was meant to be a indictment of the modern food processing regime, so I read. In any case, none of the people who eat faeces in these stories seem to be any worse for the wear. Having not known anyone that has eaten human faeces (I do, however, know a few people that have swallowed urine), I do not know from firsthand experience what the effects of faecal consumption are. What are the risks of eating human faeces? Will it be harmful to just eat some once in a while? Any insights or experience into this matter you may have would be highly appreciated. Torkmann (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Try coprophagy (if it's blue). DuncanHill (talk) 20:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Try it? I think I'll pass, personally... ;-) --Mr.98 (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It did strike me after I wrote it that advising someone to try coprophagy (whatever colour it may be) is something I never expected to have to do. DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

2 Wikipedians 1 Cup anyone?--Jayron32 21:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You can easily catch diseases for one thing. Another risk is bacterial infection. It's also hard on the liver. It's safer if you eat your own, but I wouldn't recommend it either way...... -Pollinosisss (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I remember reading in a survival guide, but can't give a source, that if you are dying of thirst you should definitely drink your urine if you can, as it will help you survive longer, but even if you are dying of starvation you should definitely not eat your faeces as it will do more harm then good. Vespine (talk) 23:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

If what you claim is true, then why is "EAT SHIT AND DIE!" a standard curse? Edison (talk) 01:30, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

In the Bible, the prophet Ezekiel was told by God to bake cakes with man's dung in the sight of Israel, and eat them. God's intention was to show that the sins of Israel were as distasteful as if they were doing so themselves. As it is written : Ezek.4 [1] Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem: [2] And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about. [3] Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel. [4] Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. [5] For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. [6] And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. [7] Therefore thou shalt set thy face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and thine arm shall be uncovered, and thou shalt prophesy against it. [8] And, behold, I will lay bands upon thee, and thou shalt not turn thee from one side to another, till thou hast ended the days of thy siege. [9] Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof. [10] And thy meat which thou shalt eat shall be by weight, twenty shekels a day: from time to time shalt thou eat it. [11] Thou shalt drink also water by measure, the sixth part of an hin: from time to time shalt thou drink. [12] And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. [13] And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them. [14] Then said I, Ah Lord GOD! behold, my soul hath not been polluted: for from my youth up even till now have I not eaten of that which dieth of itself, or is torn in pieces; neither came there abominable flesh into my mouth. [15] Then he said unto me, Lo, I have given thee cow's dung for man's dung, and thou shalt prepare thy bread therewith. [16] Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment: [17] That they may want bread and water, and be astonied one with another, and consume away for their iniquity.

God would protect His prophet from any diseases, but I do not believe He will tell anyone else to do that in this age, since, as with during the childhood of Samuel, and as also predicted in Amos, there is now no open vision, contrary to what a number of charismatics believe. It would not be advisable to dung at all. Why anyone would do so, even if starving, I cannot guess. Although, starving people can be led to desperation, as in the Andes in 1972, and none of us can judge if never in the same position. I understand though that the ancient Romans used to brush their teeth with urine, since it is supposed to be an antiseptic. But if so, why is it also considered grubby ? The Russian.C.B.Lilly 12:59, 21 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Just to be clear, the above Bible passage is about using human dung for cooking fuel, not about eating it. And even then the prophet actually uses cow dung, not human dung.DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

If there is such thing as cannibalism exists, then the smelling or tasting of feces and urine (not eating or drinking) is a lesser degree of abnormality that individual practice for their curiosity and stimulation. At the same time, what people speak in an emotional state or eat and drink in the state of starvation and desperation are exceptions for any conceptual or componential analyses.Couchworthy (talk) 00:58, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales

Does Jimmy Wales contribute personally to editing WP? I would imagine he did to start with but now would do so very rarely. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 21:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Jimbo has an account like anyone else. You can see his contributions, just like you can see yours. Matt Deres (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

EC, Thanks, I was just about to add this link [11] too. So after finding that, the question is; are these edits actually done by Jimmy, or is it more a sock puppet account? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 22:05, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

That's impossible to know for sure, but it's assumed it's actually him. And who knows, he himself might have an alternative account he uses for his actual editing, and just uses that "public account" for pr stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.88.54 (talk) 22:08, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Why would you think it's a sock puppet account? Woogee (talk) 22:06, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It's quite legitimate to have one account for editing and another for 'WikiPolitics' - so long as you don't abuse them, we don't regard that as a bad thing. WP:SOCK makes it clear that we don't regard such things as "Sock Puppets" - even though they fall within the broader definition of Sockpuppet (Internet). Someone with the notoriety of Jimmy would almost certainly do that. With his main account, he seems to mostly edit as a WP:WikiGnome - making small tweaks to articles without adding a whole lot of content - almost all of his edits are to his own Talk: page. But his edits to articles are pretty sporadic - just a few edits per month typically. SteveBaker (talk) 02:36, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think Aaadddaaammm is referring to a shared account which is indeed largely forbidden per Wikipedia:NOSHARE and is more the reverse of sockpuppetry. While shared accounts are allowed when representing the WMF, the user Jimbo Wales is clearly intended to represent Jimbo Wales the person so if it were a shared account it would likely be construed a violation of policy and his editing pattern also gives no reason to believe it's a shared account. Nil Einne (talk) 13:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales already mentioned that his edits would continue as a shared account like other popular user accounts.Couchworthy (talk) 17:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Where did he mention that and what does it mean? What is a "popular user account"? --Tango (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

For example, 'Tango' in that sense is a popular user account because of the nature of contributions in WP. However, whether not it is a shared account or just a patchy nature is difficult to check by just checking the times of its contributions. And to the question, I have to search again the Jimmy Walles’s and his assistants' pages to see where I read that passage. Couchworthy (talk) 20:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

December 21

ACONCAGUA SUMMIT

To whom it may concern, Acancogua is the 2nd highest mountain of the seven summits in the world. It is in Argentina and the highest mountain the in the soutrhern and western hemisphers. I am a South African getting ready for an Acancogua expedition beginning 1/08/10 and hope to summit a couple weeks thereafter. I was wondering how many other South africans have attempted to summit this mountain and whom have actually been successful? Any help would be appreciated in finding an answer to my question. Please e-mail any answers to e-mail address redacted Thanks so much. Larry wollach —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.121.27 (talk) 00:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Have you seen our article Aconcagua? 2. I removed your e-mail address; we answer questions here at the Reference Desk and not through e-mail (see the top of the page). Comet Tuttle (talk) 00:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

So much information on the internet - so why am I not rich?

Compared to a few years ago in the days before people used the internet, I now have quick and mostly free access (eg Google Scholar)to a huge amount of detailed factual information that was previously available in part only to an elite. So why am I not therefore rich/wealthy? 89.242.211.123 (talk) 00:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you expect someone to hand you cash? You have to do something to earn money.Aaronite (talk) 00:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Knowledge, or access to it, =/= money. Certainly, knowledge increases your chances of making a reasonable living, and people tend to reach the "middle class" stage of life much more readily with access to education. However, there are diminishing returns on knowledge. People with no access to education generally do very bad, economically. However, the effect plateaus somewhere around "comfortable middle class" for most people. Becomeing insanely wealthy has little to do with knowing lots of things. It comes from two sources a) Being born to insanely wealthy parents and b) other forms of dumb luck. --Jayron32 00:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd have thought the answer would be "Because everyone else has access to it too". If everyone is rich, then no-one is. Vimescarrot (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

An obvious rejoinder is that not everyone has Internet access. I find the question interesting because it challenges premises like "Knowledge is power". Comet Tuttle (talk) 01:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

The source of that appears to be Francis Bacon (who said it strongly: knowledge in and of itself is power). In 1621 he fell into debt, confessed to corruption, and spent a few days in the Tower of London. He may well have known more about every subject than the guards, but the guards had the advantage of being on the right side of the door and having the keys, so he was powerless to get out. This sort of counter-example is so obvious that I have to wonder what he was really thinking of when he came up with the aphorism. Felis cheshiri (talk) 12:32, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Knowledge alone is not enough - you still need the brainpower to understand and apply that knowledge and the business acumen to turn that understanding into dollars. Also, (as Ref.Desk regulars will readily attest) a vast proportion of the population are incapable of using a search engine effectively. A solid 90% of the questions asked here could easily be answered by searching - and indeed, many of our answers are formed by our volunteers doing exactly that. Yet a third issue is that of knowing that the knowledge exists in the first place. To pick a silly example - if you are a farmer who wishes to get better yields from his crops - but has no idea what "fertilizer" is - or even that fertilizer exists - then he's not going to be able to look up the information about which fertilizers are effective for his crops. Very often people don't know what it is that they don't know. SteveBaker (talk) 02:25, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think a more ominous angle is that SteveBaker's points (except the "brainpower ceiling" implication) can all be fixed by "education" — education can start a person on business acumen, education can teach a person how to use a search engine, education can teach the farmer all about fertilizer and crop yields ... but 89's point is, partially, that education does not seem to be taking place via the Internet, at least in some global and measurable way. The availability of computers to students is waved around like it's a panacea by various organizations — see the OLPC — it's supposed to make great strides against illiteracy in the developed countries and against poverty in the developing world — but maybe the distractions of lolcats and South Park video clips snuff out most of the Internet's potential. All OR of course. Comet Tuttle (talk) 04:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

More OR here, but at least some educated OR. The difference between knowledge and education is pedagogy, that is there is more to making knowledge useful than mere exposure. It's part of the problem with modern "education" trends like charter schools and homeschooling and online education movements. There is something in the way that information is packaged and presented which makes it useful to someone to learn it. There is something in the way that something is taught that helps people to learn it. A huge part of teaching is interaction and feedback and all that is lost with the whole "trying to teach yourself" movement. There is a common misconception that "anyone can teach", which is what drives the "who needs teachers?" thread that runs through the movements I have cited above. Proper education is invaluable in taking information and using it to build knowledge in a student. --Jayron32 04:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I troubled to look at my own illiteracy link, and right at the top a caption claims, World illiteracy halved between 1970 and 2005. Coincidental with the history of the Internet... hmm.... Comet Tuttle (talk) 04:18, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a lot more to the "who needs teachers?" idea than that: see for instance How Children Fail . One important question is the nature of learning: historically, teachers have been regarded as reservoirs of knowledge, whose jobs are to release it into the empty vessels which are children's minds. You mention interaction, quite rightly, but there is still a generally held idea that children have a responsibility (though they may not be enjoying it at all) to pay attention to their teachers, who are the founts of wisdom. This is at odds with the attitude that the child, as the one doing the learning, should be in control of its direction, and that the teacher (or tutor, since having one teacher to many children causes practical difficulties) is the child's assistant and is the one who has the responsibility to pay attention. There's also the question of whether it's possible to learn in a meaningful sense, that is, increase understanding, if one is not enjoying oneself. If not, then obviously understanding can't be imposed on a pupil against his will. If by teaching you mean "presenting information in an attractive way and providing interactive assistance for those who want to gain understanding" then I wholeheartedly agree that this is an improvement over being left to struggle on one's own, but fail to see how this interaction is missing from the forms of education you mentioned - except that it could be, but it could also very easily - more easily - be absent from a traditional school.

I've put this in small, not because I'm being funny, but because it's a can of worms. Felis cheshiri (talk) 13:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course, there are bad teachers. The problem is not that we don't need teachers. Its that we need quality teachers who are properly trained in how people really learn, and how to get the most out of them. There are bad plumbers, but no one argues that we don't need to get a broken pipe fixed. There are bad construction workers, but no one argues that we don't need houses built. And yet, when faced with bad teachers, people say "Well, teacher's are worthless because the kids aren't learning". We need good teachers who do it right, not to eliminate teachers. A teacher who behaves as they do in the first part of your post is not behaving as I describe. The proper teacher packages and presents the knowledge in a way mindful of what it takes to get students to learn and teaches such that they are likely to learn. --Jayron32 15:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

A plumber who installs pipes mindful of what it takes to get householders to have more plumbing will not be a popular plumber. I think teachers, like plumbers, should be optional assistants called in to do a job when and only when wanted; but of course this view causes lengthy arguments. To continue with the enjoyably awkward simile, we all have broken pipes, and are discovering new ones as soon as we get them fixed. Therefore there it's a personal decision how fast to fix them, and there is no external moral imperative to get them fixed at a certain rate, and it certainly isn't up to the plumber to impose this. There's also the matter of academic knowledge being only a subclass of knowledge in general, with no particular right to claim superiority over the rest of knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Felis cheshiri (talk • contribs) 16:12, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

“ There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we do not know we don’t know. ”

-United States Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld

“ Education is an admirable thing. But it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught...It is a very sad thing that nowadays there is so little useless information...In old days books were written by men of letters and read by the public. Nowadays books are written by the public and read by nobody. ”

-Oscar Wilde.

Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:56, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Considering Mr Rumsfeld's 2x2 matrix, I've always wondered what the "unknown knowns" would be? 78.147.27.40 (talk) 00:01, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

If you were the only one who had access to that information, you could pretty easily become rich and wealthy, just via arbitrage. However, you are not—the fact that the information is there at all (in this case), and that you have access to it, means hundreds of millions of people also have access to it. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I wish a philosopher would make a serious study of what the components are that are required to make a fortune. It is more than just knowledge or education - lots of people have those. Doing a top-down analysis would involve something like this: 1) identifying the gap between a) what consumers/buyers need/desire/would-like and b) what is available; 2) of these, identify what it is feasible to supply, 3) supply it. The know-how around 2) and 3) is very well developed. But 1) and 1a) seem very poorly developed - I'm not aware of any textbooks about how to systematically search for business opportunities. (Although the techniques for evaluating potential opportunities after they have been discovered has been standardised). Unless someone can tell me different? 78.147.27.40 (talk) 00:01, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Philosophers are pedagogs (little bit in-depth than the conventional teaching methodology). I also remember that a teacher saying ‘philosophers are along’, which I did not understand what she really meant and nobody asked question. On the comment (though just added), it is difficult to except about the world of truths from philosophers on how one becomes rich or poor. In general however, once productions reached maxims (everything available in a market), and then people just need money to consume. So there is any such dynamism in a market as such one to be extreme (little bit yes). However, their must be enough people to purchase the available expensive goods. So some people have to become rich (even without their knowledge) for just to consume those goods. That is, the real value of the labor as to its supply and demand perhaps less than $50/hour, but the nominal value ample enough to consume those goods.Couchworthy (talk) 02:02, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Which song is this?

Can anybody which song this is, please? Thanks LooseJuice (talk) 01:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Walk This Way — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 02:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Daniel, ( not ) my brother

Does anyone have any idea whether the defender in the Braziilian World Champion Beach Soccer team known as Daniel is the same Daniel who played soccer in New Zealand for, I believe it was the now defunct Knights, of the Hyundai A League competition in Australia ? My understanding is that the NZ Daniel became a NZ citizen, and he may have been a striker. Maybe it is a common name in Brazil. Thanks. The Russian. C.B.Lilly 12:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Neither List of New Zealand Knights FC players nor List of Football Kingz F.C. players list any Daniel from Brazil unfortunately although they may not be complete Nil Einne (talk) 13:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that was quick. I am sure he didn't play for the Phoenix. I wonder if anyone else remembers him. C.B.Lilly 13:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Your memory's wrong - Daniel plays for the 'nix - his full name is Daniel Lins Côrtes. Grutness...wha? 23:46, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

BBC iplayer

If I download a program from the site that is just about to run out, would I still be able to watch it afterward, or would it disappear from my computer at the same time as it does from the internet?

80.47.208.68 (talk) 13:07, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you get the same full allowance that you would get for any other programme, IIRC. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 13:10, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure? I think I've dowloaded programmes and then not been able to watch them after a certain time even though the video file is on my PC, it needs some extra 'key' to be viewed.91.109.247.249 (talk) 19:15, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is a time limit, but it is the same no matter whether you downloaded it as soon as it was added, or was about to be removed, I believe. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 19:38, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Clive Dunn

As I mentioned in commenting on the question about POWs' back pay, my great uncle Willam Hughes was in a German POW camp with Clive Dunn. My father told me that many years ago, Clive Dunn came to New Zealand looking for him, but with no success. How they found that out, I do not know. My great uncle has long since died, but for a number of years I have been trying to get hold of Clive Dunn, to see if he remebers old uncle Bill, having written to and emailed the BBC. I know he lives in Portugal, and have emailed the British Embassy in Lisbon, but have not heard a thing in months. Is there any other way of getting hold of Mr. Dunn, since he will be turning ninety next month, and it would be very interesting to be able to see what he has to say. The Russian.C.B.Lilly 13:20, 21 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

You could always write to his agent. Nanonic (talk) 13:34, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I shall give him a call later tonight. It's about three in the morning here, so mid afternoon in London. C.B.Lilly 14:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher1968 (talk • contribs)

Curiously Clive Dunn's agent's site says he was born in 1922, the Wikipedia article on him says 1920. Hmm? Perhaps you could ask him which is correct if you get to speak to him. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 15:01, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Suit_(clothing)

Hi,

Could you please add the list of countries where it is accepted not to wear a suit for informal meetings (such as in India or Saudi Arabia, where they use to wear something else). Thank you. 81.33.17.110 (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's anything particular about interviews and business meetings -- in Israel, people wear jeans to weddings. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 15:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I do not think there are such attires to informal gatherings in India, otherthan (might be) an implicit demand (expectations) from West on populous leaders (politicians) to be close to their people.Couchworthy (talk) 16:14, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you really meant "informal meetings"? I would dare to say that in most places you can choose what you wear on an informal meeting. ProteanEd (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

This is just a reply to the comment above and not to the OP.

The OP is about informal meetings and you added another point. OP perhaps meant that populous leaders are expected not to wear suit even in informal meetings for just to maintain populous clothing. I agree that this is not important for average citizen. But if you look at this little more, there is something in it (that OP has not detailed). The countries like China and India are an example on these varying expectations. Since the green revolution, China has rapidly adapted the pants. And now, it is nether an issue to Chinese (I think) about whether they should wear pants or suites in formal or informal occasions nor an issue that such expectations could be different. However, this may not that simple in India. They may be more consciousness about what others are thinking about them or are expecting from them.Couchworthy (talk) 18:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't have it in front of me to look this up for you, but the book Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands (redlinked currently, but here's their website) discusses the norms of all major countries, to help international travelers. It discusses the expected attire in different situations, when it's appropriate to bring a gift and what to bring, the typical attitude toward tardiness, etc. etc. I see now there's a 2nd edition, a (paid access) online database, and editions specific to different regions. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, I meant formal meeting and that changed all the meaning of the question... I was thinking about meetings such as political debates, business conference, etc. 77.225.171.63 (talk) 23:42, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

December 22

Recording television to PCs

Is something like this what I need to, say, record a news segment on television and then put it on my computer? 71.213.56.214 (talk) 02:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)