Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Qantas Flight 32

Qantas Flight 32

Qantas Flight 32 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

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Too recent (Essay I know) but also Wikipedia isn't a news site. This is yet to be investigated and will be sometime before a cause of the failure of one engine. Bidgee (talk) 05:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep Its not too recent, already landed. Cause of something not yet know does not mean it is merely news. Its also a important and notable incident/event. --Advanstra (talk) 05:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

(and edited) Advanstra (talk) 16:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It is recent, it happened a few hours ago and the cause will not be known for 6 months or more. Bidgee (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

And 6 months later its ancient history, does it really take that before its considered not news any more--Advanstra (talk) 05:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC) (and edited) Advanstra (talk) 16:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree! Elmao (talk) 10:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —Bidgee (talk) 05:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete It was an uncontained engine failure. Whilst it was the first major incident to befall the A380, it is not serious enough to justify a stand-alone article. Information about the incident could be included in the Airbus A380, Qantas and Singapore Changi Airport articles. I've started discussion on this at Talk:Airbus A380#Incident - 4 Nov 2010. Mjroots (talk) 05:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Its pretty serious for the airline and aircraft - and for Australian Aviation. There are many stand alone articles on less serious airline incidents. I'd support to delete it myself less than everybody in Australia remembers it in a day or two.--Advanstra (talk) 05:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC) (and edited) Advanstra (talk) 16:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete - endorse MJR's statement. - BilCat (talk) 06:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep - There's alot going on withthe incident, and it will take awhile to sort things out. The incident has definitely received "significant media coverge", and has resulted in one airline (so far) grounding its fleet. In the end, I believe there's going to be far too much info to cover in brief entries at the Qantas and A380 pages, not to mention the SIA and Lufthansa pages. This is all better covered in one place. - BilCat (talk) 19:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. It is isn't even an accident. No fatalities, no casualties ... Every little aircraft malfunction does merit an stand-alone article. A mention in the A380 article would be ample. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 06:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 06:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS. Article creation appears to be a premature case of recentism. No prejudice to recreation if anything notable actually comes out of this. --Kinu ^t/_c 06:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Concur. - BilCat (talk) 06:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep I can't see any valid reason for deleting this article. Firstly, it is the first major incident attributed to a specific type of aircraft, and it has now seen the grounding of the type within one airline's fleet. Further, each of the points within WP:NOTNEWS can be easily countered or have no validity given the nature and veracity of the incident. Further, standing practice is that articles for all accidents of a significant nature, regardless of if they are air, plane, sea or rail start within hours of their occurrence, despite the recentisim points raised, and the information within them develops over time. Having the article provides the space for the article to develop over time, and helps to give articles structure and form. Deletion of this article would only seek to create problems down the track. Thewinchester ^(talk) 06:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Use WP:INCUBATION if you want to develop the article over time. Otherwise, it is covered by WP:NOTNEWS presently and does not belong here. This is no special exemption for accidents (and this was not even an accident!). -- Mattinbgn (talk) 06:35, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

If the article is deleted and anyone wants it userfied, I'll be happy to oblige. Mjroots (talk) 06:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to expand further on keep, and cite WP:AIRCRASH as a further reason for keeping the article. Wikipedia:WikiProject Aviation currently meets two of the six criteria for notability, being that this is the First, deadliest, or most significant accident for the type, and Suspension - all or a significant proportion of activities by an airline are suspended, or part or all of their fleet is grounded. The guidelines for Aviation crash notability have been stable since early 2009, and considering the article falls within the guise of that project - I would submit they are the experts on what determines notability for this class of article. Thewinchester ^(talk) 07:40, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Where exactly on WP is it "standing practice is that articles for all accidents of a significant nature, regardless of if they are air, plane, sea or rail start within hours of their occurrence, despite the recentisim points raised, and the information within them develops over time."? To my knowledge, that's not a practice WPAIR/WPAVIATION has ever used. It would be useful to see some written guidelines to that effect, as it would save us a lot of time and effort on the dozens of aviation accident AFDs MJR and I have collectively participated in! - BilCat (talk) 07:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Note to closing admin: Thewinchester (talk · contribs) has !voted (bolded) keep twice. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Delete, textbook NotNews and recentism. I totally disagree that deletion of this would "seek to create problems down the track" - a claim not substantiated with any examples of how it might do so. No hull loss, no crash, no deaths... not notable. StrPby (talk) 06:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Death/crash as an indicator of notability - Are you serious? The lack of deaths or a crash makes an incident not notable? Its notability is virtually assured by the fact that a trans-national investigation involving authorities from at least eight jurisdictions is taking place. Thewinchester ^(talk) 06:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

There's ALWAYS several organisations involved in any incident like this. The airline, the manufacturer, the government air safety bodies of both and those of nations involved. BFD. --Pete (talk) 07:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep It is definitely a serious incident and deserve its own page for the details. Let the page be there. In the mean time, it can be edited as and when the details and investigation results are available. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hkurniawan (talk • contribs) 06:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • AFDs generally run for a week, so there'll be time to improve it and see if it proves to be notable in during that time. - BilCat (talk) 07:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete, From the infobox - "Injuries 0, Fatalities 0". HiLo48 (talk) 07:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Lack of deaths and/or injuries does not necessarily mean a lack of notability. Let's get away from that idea please. Mjroots (talk) 07:15, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• "Injuries 0, Fatalities 0" does not make a case for deleting any article (thank goodness or most of wikipedia deleted), "Injuries 0, Fatalities 0" is a reason for not including it in List of Qantas fatal accidents. oh I am fighting too many edit conflicts. --Advanstra (talk) 07:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually its "Injuries 2, Fatalities 0", but why does this fact so important for AfD anyway?--Advanstra (talk) 05:19, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS - article is clearly premature Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

At what point do you think it is no longer 'clearly premature'?--Advanstra (talk) 08:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, the immediate outcome is irrelevant. To echo what others have said, it's the investigations that will take place and the outcome of the A380 itself. Thenthornthing (talk) 07:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. No fatalities or injuries. A note in the A380 article is needed, but not a whole article! There was a similar incident in August involving a QF B744 and SFO but no article on that one either. Looking at the first incident with the B777, we don't have an article, and only a very fleeting indirect reference in the B777 article. --Pete (talk) 07:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment.Well being a similar incident, the A380 is, at the moment, a much more high profile airplane. Every delay and little incident are being reported. Additionally, unlike that incident, this Qantas one is already having some sources, such as this BBC article, question the safety of A380 project, its impact on Airbus and on Rolls Royce. While I still think it is a little bit to early to create the page, I believe in 24 - 48 hours many similar articles will appear. If this does occur I think the event becomes notable to merrit its own article, until then I'll hold my judgment. Ravendrop (talk) 08:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It's newsworthy - aviation incidents of this nature generally are - but hardly notable enough for a specific article about a scheduled flight where there were no injuries, no hijackings, no great fuss or delay. It's relevant, as other editors agree, to the airline and the aircraft, and possibly to the engine. We'll know more in due course. None of the arguments I've seen here are convincing enough for me to change my mind, and in fact some of the comments appear a little too strident, leading me to suspect that if the accident had happened to a Boeing, as in the two incidents I mentioned above (unrecorded in Wikipedia), the same editors might be urging a different outcome. --Pete (talk) 13:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that we need more time for the full outcome to be determined, though with the announcement by Singapore Airlines 'delaying' their A380 flights on 'the advice of RR' I am much more starting to lean towards the keep side. Above I was merely trying to point out that media attention can have an effect on how notable an incident becomes. See for example the BA flight that landed short at Heathrow in '08 vs. the one that landed short in Italy earlier this year (apologies that I haven't had a chance to link those at the moment). One, because of the airline, location and place type, has its own wikipedia article (justifiably), yet the other doesn't as it occured on a much more common plane, by a not well known operator and in a 'relatively' remote, not high profile area and does not (justifibly) have its own article. This is regardless of the fact that two incidents by themselves, the technical aspects, fatality/injury rate were very similar. Ravendrop (talk) 16:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

In both the incidents you mention, the aircraft crashed. That's worth an article. In this case, the aircraft returned safely to the airport, there were no injuries, an overnight delay, a bit of inconvenience. These things happen to scheduled flights on a regular basis - the recent incident involving a B744 at SFO is a case in point. We don't need an article on the specific flight. It's not going to go down in history as anything out of the ordinary. Where it is noteworthy lies in the connection to the aircraft and the airline. A380 operations have been remarkably incident-free, and of course any Qantas incident is reasonably notable. But QF32 has been delayed and disrupted in the past, and will doubtless be so again in the future. We don't need a distinct article for one instance of a scheduled flight that wasn't very much out of the ordinary. --Pete (talk) 21:31, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• DELETE per WP:AIRCRASH guidelines, this applies as well to all aviation and airlines related articles, Qantas is no exception too! Having said that, since there was an explosion in one of the engines, it should be a wee bit notable enough to add in the parent article of Qantas or Airbus A380. However, as I've said... this article is in itself too weak to stand on its feet per WP:AIRCRASH guidelines. No point pushing and fighting the policy, mate. IF we make this an exception, soon there would be a flood of such articles hanging everywhere on WP. Best and out. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 08:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

To quote the WP:AIRCRASH guidelines -- "As noted in Wikipedia:Notability, a topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." - here are some examples i've found to meet this: Australian media incl ABC, CNN, BBC, newspapers (online versions, the paper versions should have them in a couple of hours, let me know if there not), ATSB website homepage. The Qantas website too. I dont consider theres a need to dissect the whole guideline. I'd consider that a waste of time because because it would only confirm that its notable. --Advanstra (talk) 09:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Suggest you refer to WP:EVENT, which explicates, arguably supersedes, WP:GNG in this situation. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 09:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• @Advanstra: Mate, its best you don't fight as you have been observed to be doing, you will only attract more of the opposite. Work with us towards a solution and if that is not possible, then a compromise. Whatever you do, don't fight. Alright? --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 11:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I didnt consider it to be personal attack as theres nothing specific to yourself. Anyway no attack was intended, but to ease things i will rephrase the comments and make them more readable and neutral.--Advanstra (talk) 12:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:AIRCRASH and WP:NOTNEWS. Not everthing that Qantas does that is reported in the press deserves a WP article. No casualties. Engines fail on aircraft every week. Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:31, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Shouldn't that be Keep per WP:AIRCRASH? This article clearly meets WP:AIRCRASH as follows : Principle 2 : Significant / lasting interest or impact (that is WP:CRYSTAL but so is everything recent on WP). Criteria A4 : Resulting in Grounding of A380s. 5. Suspension - all or part of an airline's fleet are grounded. Buckethed (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, as per Thewinchester. Jonchapple (talk) 09:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep, as all news companies have this on their front page. Also "the first major incident attributed to a specific type of aircraft" << as previously stated. Elmao (talk) 10:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment - you should take a closer look at the WP:NOTNEWS policy. Socrates2008 (Talk) 10:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep I would strongly argue against deletion of this article. It is a very relevant incident (reportedly, the wing itself got penetrated by debris). It had a lucky outcome, but the potential ramifications are huge. Let's keep the article and use it to collect and organize further information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.94.44.4 (talk) 10:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Note: Firstly, I have to apologise if it offends anyone and I hate to say this but whenever an unknown IP editor open their mouth on AfD, I tend to shout sockpuppetry or vote fraud. Best. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 11:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete This absolutely deserves a mention in the A380 article because it is grounding Quantas' fleet, and possibly warrents a mention in the Rolls-Royce Trent 900 article if RR takes any action (redesigned part, grounding the engine, etc), but it doesn't need its own article. -SidewinderX (talk) 11:47, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep I believe that deleting this article is unwarranted. This is currently the most significant incident affecting the A380 (criteria A1 in WP:AIRCRASH) and has caused Qantas to ground its entire A380 fleet (criteria A5). The incident has been reported in Australian, British (eg [1]) and Canadian (eg [2]) media, as well as on newswires (eg [3]) and appears to have triggered significant falls in Airbus and Rolls-Royce shares (according to the Reuters link above) as well as Qantas shares. Failures within commercial jet engines are supposed to be contained within the engine and not allow debris to be ejected from the sides of the engine - whereas QF32 suffered damage to one wing and lost a significant part of the engine cowling. Lack of injuries or fatalities is welcome but does not affect the significance of the incident. --PeterJeremy (talk) 12:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete Classic WP:NOTNEWS. It's worthy of a sentence in the A380 or Qantas article. An airplane made an emergency landing this morning. "Injuries-0, Fatalities-0" pretty well sums it up. Thank God that it didn't become a notable incident. Trust me, by 11 November, this will not be news anymore. Mandsford 13:09, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep This incident has been widely covered in the media, and has resulted in Qantas grounding its entire fleet of A380s. For such a high-profile aircraft, this is likely to be considered a large scale incident at Boeing Airbus, Rolls-Royce and Qantas. This would be like (imagining it occured today) the article on American Airlines Flight 96 being deleted hours after the incident occured. Only two years later, 303 people were killed in Turkish Airlines Flight 981. Only several years into commercial service, and tha A380 has had an incident, and it is my opinion from the reaction from Boeing Airbus and (yes, silly to take the opinion of the media into account) the media, are treating this as though it could be an underlying problem with the design of the aircraft. Therefore, I think this should not be counted as a minor incident, but as one that may be important in future sales of the A380. wackywace 13:48, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but the A380 is an Airbus aircraft, not Boeing. -SidewinderX (talk) 14:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh, silly me. I should know better. Was a bit stressed out when I wrote that. wackywace 16:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• delete per nom. WP:NOTNEWS Justin talk 14:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS is not really an argument in this case - this is not just a random news item that will go away, but meets WP:AIRCRASH etc. Buckethed (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete. The incident does not meet WP:AIRCRASH - which I will quote verbatim - "If the accident or incident matches criteria only in this section, then coverage should normally be on the article about the aircraft or airline" Criteria A1 (first in type) and A5 (grounding) are both in the same section, meaning that this info is more appropriately included in the A-380, RR Trent and Quantas pages, rather than it's own article. And while AIRCRASH is just an essay, it is the only current go-to project specific information for informing on the WP:EFFECT portion of the WP:EVENT Guideline, which is the site-wide consensus backed interpretation of the GNG presumption and WP:NOT#NEWS policy for breaking news type articles, which this clearly is. And while this incident is for obvious reasons getting global coverage, it is far too early to say with any confidence or even proof, that this incident is not a basic violation of NOT#NEWS by meeting the WP:INDEPTH and WP:PERSISTENCE clauses of EVENT. Even in terms of WP:DIVERSE, the case is weak (and no, in depth coverage in sources like the Aviation Herald as well as coverage in the news, does not count as diversity for air incidents.) MickMacNee (talk) 14:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment Actually, WP:AIRCRASH just states that this article more likely to be notable the more sections it covers, and less likely to be notable if it has e.g. two entries in one section. More likely doesn't mean 100%, just as less likely doesn't mean 0%. This article is less likely from that part of WP:AIRCRASH, but from WP:GNG etc, it is clearly notable and deserving of an article.Buckethed (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Look, you and everyone else who does it, really don't help your case at all by simply stating it is 'clearly' notable or 'clearly' meets the GNG at all. I am not going to be swayed by such simple assertion at all, neither is the closer, and if it realy were true, this Afd would not even still be going on. As for your percentage comment, so what? Sliding scale or absolute test, this incident is still at the wrong end of the scale of pre-assumed notability, so if anything, it means you should be making more of an effort to show how it is notable, not simply ignoring the essay and trying a different one or simply repeating blind assertions of notability again. MickMacNee (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - this incident isn't even the "first accident" - BBC: "The closest the airliner has come to a similar incident was in September 2009, when a Singapore Airlines A380 turned around in mid-flight and returned to Paris after one of its four engines failed." Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete Wikinews is thataway. Grsz¹¹ 15:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Strong Keep - I don't care that this is too recent, that Wikipedia is not a news site or whatever, removing the article now will only lead to its reinstatement later as information develops. As it so happens, the nature of Wikipedia means it is one of the best resources in my vast searching of the Internet for researching this type of incident - I immediately came here to read further technical and incident details, knowing there would be a page for this under the usual format Airline_Flight_Number. The article can be expanded later with the results of an investigation, whether they suggest there was a major fault or not. I am just about sick and tired of Wikipedia users reducing themselves to petty arguments over an article on valid topics and users unfamiliar with the site (like me) quoting hundreds of "policies" about what can or cannot be written. I would urge someone to pick fault with the factual information of the article discussed here, because that it is - completely factual. Factual is what Wikipedia does best; I can understand opinion pieces being debatable, but factual information is just that. I wouldn't even consider that article a stub; it is already on the path to being a real encyclopaedia article, unlike most of the other "stubs" on the site. Why don't you spend some time chasing the other articles on Wikipedia which aren't noteworthy and only contain a line or two? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.241.118 (talk) 15:17, 4 November 2010 (UTC) — 86.152.241.118 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • And why don't you learn to assume good faith? We have our policies and guidelines for a reason. If you "don't care" about them, then sorry, I don't see why your !vote should count. Closing admin please note: this is the IP's first edit. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Clearly a notable accident in terms of it being the first for the A380 series - no matter what way one looks at it, it passes WP:N even now, and will easily do so once the investigation is complete. Orderinchaos 15:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Um, I've established above that this isn't the first recorded incident of engine troubles with the A380, see the BBC link provided. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • "certainly the most serious incident that the A380 has experienced since it entered operations", [4], Rolls Ropyce and EADS share prices drop as a result. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 16:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • You could probably down another A380 with the turbulence from that massive WP:VAGUEWAVE. MickMacNee (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. It nearly meets criteria 1 (1st incident; ok maybe its the second) and 5 (the entire Quatas A380 fleet is grounded) It's been a top headline for half a day on the BBC. The a380 is a 'flagship' aircraft and incidents involving it are more notable than with other aircraft.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • That is but an essay, not a guideline. Not to mention, is it really such a surprise that it's top news on the BBC? Incident involves national carrier of a Commonwealth realm; flight originated in London; incident forced landing in a Commonwealth country; engine maker is British. Not all that surprising, imo. Oh, and, you said it yourself: "it's been a top headline". It's a news event, not an encyclopaedic air incident. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:43, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • A1 + A5 <> standalone article. Read the actual essay. MickMacNee (talk) 15:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep Right now, the world is talking about it! We do not want lives to be taken. Take this incident seriously. This is no joke — Preceding unsigned comment added by SinSQ800-805 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • What the hell are you on about? Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:38, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep I see no reason why this should be deleted. --Rat2.Call me Remy 15:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Strong keep - Most engine failures on a modern jetliner are barely worth a footnote. They are no big deal. I believe this one is special though because it appears to have blown a hole through the wing from the pictures (yes, O.R. I know), and is the first major incident for this type of airplane. Regardless of damage, this has caught well over 2000 hits on Google News, and obviously with this number of comments on this page is very significant. If in two months it is decided that it is not noteworthy, then delete it. I say keep it for now. Falconus^{p t c} 15:52, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Sure it's got news hits, because it is news. Wikipedia, however, is not news. Grsz¹¹ 15:53, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - notable, and a developing story: there are suggestions that it might have ramifications for the future sales of Airbus A380s as the Chinese are on the brink of putting in an order and might now reconsider [5] I've done some work to try to build up the article as I think it's a notable event: I came here to Wiki to read more about ti and was disappointed by how undeveloped the article is. It's too early to say it's not notable. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 15:57, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Suggest you visit WP:CRYSTAL – never too early to say it's not notable; always to early to say it is. We should be taking the stance that if it becomes notable, we have an article, not we have an article and delete it if it's decided it's not notable. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 15:59, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I'd say it already is notable - descibed as "potentially life-threatening and extremely rare" by aircraft engineers; Rolls-Royce and EADS share prices fall as aresult of the incident; described as "certainly the most serious incident that the A380 has experienced since it entered operations", and concerns have been voiced that this incident may be due to a "major problem", rather than being maintenance-related. Also at least one person injured on the ground. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 17:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep I think it would pass WP:AIRCRASH. SYSS Mouse (talk) 16:02, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - It starts with WP:AIRCRASH A1 and A5. Although A2 is not satisfied at this time because a directive has not been given from an official body, it is significant that the manufacturers Airbus and Rolls Royce advised Singapore Airlines to conduct "precautionary technical checks", which resulted in them "delaying all flights operating our A380 aircraft". [6] While in due course we'll know more about this, even if these checks are only transitory, it already places the incident into the realm of extraordinary for the A380 and is not something we can ignore in an assessment of notability. On this point I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the original nomination - "too recent" and "sometime before a cause of the failure". In this incident, the cause of failure is not an element of its notability (although it may well turn out to be an additional element of notability if it gives rise to formally meeting WP:AIRCRASH A2). The outcome of the investigation will be important information to add to the article, but key elements of notability have been established without it. My argument is therefore not "let it grow into notability" - in my view it is already notable, even though more details that will get added to the article will come in time. I recognise (and agree with) the essay's note about only meeting criteria in the "Aircraft and airlines" section, however when it's hitting multiple sub-categories amongst other factors (the Airbus/RR recommendation and impact on Singapore Airlines), there is a strong case for having an individual article. -- Rob.au (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • The A criteria are grouped together precisely because meeting more of them over time doesn't increase the incident's notability. Infact, the precautionary checks and notices are meaningless in that regard, they are simply an inevitable and predictable consequence of an A1-criteria meeting engine failure, which is the exact sort of prior topic specific knowledge that the essay already incorporates. MickMacNee (talk) 17:03, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I did not say meeting A2 later would increase its notability. As per my argument above, my view is that notability has been established and retention of the article is justified. The whole point I just made there was that the possibility or not of later meeting A2 was not currently a consideration as to the current notability of the article. The initial reason for nomination was based on us having to wait for an outcome when that's not the critical factor here. -- Rob.au (talk) 17:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • I am not seeing where you argued that notability is established, except by stating it meets one or more of the A-criteria. MickMacNee (talk) 19:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
        • I accept you have a different opinion but my comments are quite clear. Once again, notability is justified due to a combination of WP:AIRCRASH A1, A5 and other factors which in my view are too broad to apply the essay's notation. I note that most editors commenting on this issue are ignoring the fact that the essay is not firmly insisting that coverage must be diverted to aircraft or airline pages, but says "normally". The specific circumstances of this case cutting across multiple factors are the key here. It is also has to be remembered that it is an essay, not a guideline. I felt it unnecessary to previously comment that the article quite obviously passes the WP:GNG test but it seems that this needs to be said. For what it's worth I totally agree with Bongwarrior and Daniel Case's later arguments below. -- Rob.au (talk) 10:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete fail both WP:NOTNEWS and WP:AIRCRASH. The guideline even says "if the accident or incident matches criteria only in this section, then coverage should normally be on the article about the aircraft or airline"—Chris!_c/t 16:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep: Although this is still a very recent incident, and was a major malfunction rather than a crash or loss of the aircraft, it is significant in that it is very unusual for a modern aircraft engine to fail in the way that this has apparently done, and it has resulted in the grounding of all the aircraft of this type. Lynbarn (talk) 17:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Not quite true to say that "all the aircraft of this type" have been grounded: only Qantas has grounded its A380s, and Singapore Airlines is delaying flights on A380s. Other airlines have not said they are grounding their A380s. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 17:27, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm not disagreeing with you, but keep in mind that not all operators use RR engines and this would not imapct those that don't (and yes, this doesn't change the fact that SQ are still flying theirs). -- Rob.au (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • All operators of the A380 powered by RR engines have grounded/'delayed' their fleets. I am of the opinion that Singapore's term 'delayed' is merely a PR move, though they have not provided clear information as to what they mean by the term. The fact that this is clearly an engine issue means that it can be considered all aircraft of the type have been grounded, as the EA engine A380 is a different type. For the record the RR A380 operators are Qantas, Singapore, and Lufthansa (which is substituting an A340 on its normal A380 run to Johannesburg). Ravendrop (talk) 18:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Daily Tele3graph reports this is the 3rd incident on Airbus A380s with this type of engine (I've added it to the article) - ie possibly a major problem is becoming apparent, rather than a one-off incident. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 18:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment for the uninitiated: 1.) Note that there is a difference between aircraft models, SIA and Qantas are both using nearly identical A380-842 model which are powered by RR Trent 972 while Lufthansa is using the A380-841 which has the RR Trent 970. 2.) Both EADS & RR adviced SIA to conduct a more thorough pre-flight checks of the RR Trent 972 engines, which consequently delayed SIA's A380 operating schedule/tempo. Actually, this is more for safety measure than being a PR move, which is usually done unilaterally by the company and does not require any participation or information from the manufacturer themselves. BTW, Lufthansa is not grounding their fleet, only Qantas is at the moment. That is all. --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 18:49, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Mr Rude. Only trying to do something with the article - I seem to be just about the only person adding content. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 18:51, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

NOTE User:Dave1185 has deleted two other people's contibutions - mine included - in his recent edits. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 19:00, 4 November 2010 (UTC) Diffs [diff=prev&oldid=394835306] (mine) and [diff=prev&oldid=394834442] (another IPs). 86.152.23.62 (talk) 19:06, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Please assume good faith, unless you have no idea how many people are editing this page all at once, this becomes a major cause for multiple edit conflict. Besides, it takes time to fix it and you are hell bent on reverting without giving others the chance to explain themselves. What are you? The judge, the prosecutor and executioner all rolled into one??? Cut me some slack while I'm fixing the problem, wil'ya? --Dave ^{♠♣♥♦™№1185©♪♫®} 19:12, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Um, on two separate occasions you have removed other people's edits here. Once might be seen as unfortunate, twice, in the words of Lady Bracknell ... The second was one by me objecting to you heading your comment immediately after my previous one as Comment for the clueless. Not only was that rude, I don't think you were showing much good faith there, removing comments that are critical of you. And in your comments above, describing me as Hell bent on reverting is not exactly assuuming good faith, either. If you insult me and then remove my comments complaining about being insulted, of course I will revert. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 07:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Also, I have just noticed [User_talk:Daniel_Case#Potential_trouble_brewing this by you] on Daniel Case's talk page. You're not assuming much good faith there either are you? You talk about IPs consensus/vote fraud because, horror of horrors, people who aren't part of the Aviation Task Force are daring to express opinions on the article here at this AFD. How about WP:OWN, Dave? I came to the article because I was surprised not to see it in ITN. You have asked for the article to be protected against IP edits. Take a look at the edit summaries. I have doubled the size of that article in the last 24 hours, adding much cited information. What have you added to it? What vandalistic edits have been made to the article by IPs that it needs to be semi-protected? As far as I can see, it is stable and a non-contentious area. The arguments are confined to this page. I would also add that, as I have pointed out above, you have been adding 'unruly comments' at this AFD, not solely the IPs. 86.152.23.62 (talk) 08:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. A number of Keep supporters have given as their reason I see no reason why this should be deleted. While I'm sure those posts were made in good faith, I hope those editors realise soon how illogical and unhelpful such comments are. The have been many reasons for deletion given here. Anyone who truly "sees none" simply isn't looking. You presumably think that there is something wrong with those reasons which you presumably DO see, so please tell us what that is. Otherwise, you are just being rude to those people who HAVE given their good faith reasons for deletion. HiLo48 (talk) 17:44, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete: as per WP:NOTNEWS. A brief mention in the article on the aircraft is all that is needed. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:04, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• KEEP - this article should be kept as a testiment to Airbus' failure as a commercial plane produce. It's their own fault for stealing the idea from McDonnell Douglas! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.168.136.132 (talk) 18:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC) — 89.168.136.132 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Keep Clearly meets the notability guidelines with the sources provided. Lugnuts (talk) 19:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:VAGUEWAVE. MickMacNee (talk) 19:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • WP:VAGUEWAVE in itself is VAGUEWAVE. Lugnuts (talk) 20:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • So what? As long as the closer understands what I meant, which they will, then I honeslty don't think I care. MickMacNee (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
        • The closing nom will then have to take both links to the guidance in context then. Which will result in a keep. Lugnuts (talk) 08:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Firstly, this meets the standard notability guidelines, many sources from major news sites, and so on. Although wikipedia is NOTNEWS, anything notable that occurs will tend to be in the news. I completely agree that general news articles should not be part of wikipedia, but incidents / events / discoveries which are notable in their own right certainly do have a place on Wikipedia. Another point : Qantas Flight 30 exists on wikipedia, and yet (fortunately!) nobody died. I know that the existence of other articles alone cannot be the basis of a 'keep', however that was another example of a non-fatal but significant, notable incident. The basis of this 'keep' is the combination of notability, the fact that this was a very serious failure (in fact, it is just luck that the fragments went through the wing rather than the cabin), and that it has caused Qantas to ground their A380s. This is an unusual, notable event, with significant coverage / notability, and significant effects on the aviation industry and Rolls Royce / Airbus. Buckethed (talk) 19:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • You haven't said at all how this meets the standard notability guidelines (the relevant one being EVENT if you actually want to assert it in a NOT#NEWS case like this, not the GNG, for which anything on Google News would pass if you ignore the fact the nomination is NOT#NEWS). Also, you have asserted that this is a very serious/unusual/notable/significant aviation incident which is worthy of its own article, yet you have completely ignored the one page we have which defines those circumnstances based on actual industry relevant criteria, WP:AIRCRASH. MickMacNee (talk) 19:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Hello again :) Firstly, I asserted that it is a very serious / unusual etc aviation incident, but ignored the page WP:AIRCRASH. Actually, a comment on the article is 'I rarely ever see a failure like this on any engine' from a senior aircraft engineer - so that surely is unusual. Also, from WP:AIRCRASH, the item is notable, as it is verifiably of lasting interest, being the first incident with an A380, being a very unusual incident, and having a significant global impact. This article also clearly meets WP:AIRCRASH as follows : Principle 2 : Significant / lasting interest or impact (that is WP:CRYSTAL but so is everything recent on WP). Criteria A4 : Resulting in Grounding of A380s. 5. Suspension - all or part of an airline's fleet are grounded.

About WP:EVENT, you could argue that it doesn't meet criteria, as it is too new. It is, however, obvious that this will not just be a news spike, but will be covered in more detail later (e.g. later ATSB investigations etc). You could argue that this is both WP:Original Research and WP:CRYSTAL, but if that is the case, it means that nothing that has just happened should be included on Wikipedia, because, to include recent events would not fit WP:EVENT notability due to WP:CRYSTAL. If this logic is used, a mid-air crash between two A380s would also be put up for DELETE / SPEEDY DELETE.... as it doesn't yet meet WP:EVENT in terms of duration (although you could predict it with a WP:CRYSTAL Ball!). Therefore, Strong Keep, and if it gets deleted, I have a local mirror to preserve the good work that people have done once a certain amount of time has passed!.Buckethed (talk) 00:41, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is disputing the content of that ref, but while it is rare and serious, I can guarantee that we do not have a whole separate article on every engine failure like this, it is not something that is considered automaticaly notable on its own. And you should not fall into the trap of assuming that no article means it's not serious, this is false. The relevant point is it being the first on this plane/engine, and AIRCRASH covers the whens/whys/hows on that score pretty well, because these sorts of things have all come up in history before, Aviation didn't begin with the A380, and we know pretty well by now what is of lasting significance or not, or good enough to says so in an essay anyway, eliminating the need for all the guesswork in your rationale (the further coverage of investigations for example is not something that is not accounted for in that essay, and the only thing that matters is what it says when published, not that it just happens, because they always happen). And on that essay, I think you really just need to read it again, because the incident doesn't clearly meet it at all, quite the opposite. And you are just seriously wrong if you think that EVENT precludes any recent events at all, that would be completely opposite to the actual whole point of the Guideline, so again, maybe you should review it one more time. Also, please don't vote multiple times, I've stricken your second one. MickMacNee (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Many people have argued that this is independently notable. Since it is so recent, this is WP:CRYSTAL and inappropriate. If it becomes notable, then we can have an article on it, not before. Being in the news is not notability. --NYKevin @849, i.e. 19:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • but being on front-page news, and everyone knowing about it may be notable. 86.125.184.203 (talk) 19:31, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS as a case of "recentism." No crash, no one killed. Just having some news coverage does not a component failure on a plane something that encyclopedias should have an article about forever. Edison (talk) 19:56, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep Tofutwitch11-Chat -How'd I do? 20:58, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS, this is a victim of recentism and an overeagerness to rush to Wikipedia and flood the parge with excessive detail. We'd never get such detail, or an entire article, on a single engine failure of a de Havilland Comet or a Boeing 747, the only difference is those were historical and past tense while this is a current event. This is uneven coverage, either give the single engine failures of other aircraft the same coverage, or reduce this over-detailing. I witnessed and argued against the same kind of outpourings on the Eurostar Winter 2010 failures, the coverage of was close onto 40 times the size of the 1996 Winter failings while being practically identical in scale and damage, the only difference was overexcited people reading the news and then jamming it up on the wikipedia article by the hundreds on the spur of the moment. Kyteto (talk) 21:16, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

  Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFF is not an argument. The fact that Wikipedia lacks articles about events longer ago doesn't mean we have to delete articles about recent events. -- memset (talk) 21:30, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

You are right in a generic circumstance. However the reason why those articles are missing is by a consensus, it was agreed that these events weren't noteworthy. Those events aren't just missing because the wikipedia lacks them and nobody cared to make them, it was decided that they were simply not worth having as the event of a single engine failure, without other circumstances or events adding to the event, simply was not worth having an article by itself. Kyteto (talk) 21:46, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

The simple fact that a consensus was reached for some other topic can still be no argument for this discussion. What may be more helpful is how the consensus in previous discussions was reached, and if the arguments for it are also applicable in this case.--memset (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

It is a valid argument when the ommission is down to the 'other' incidents not having been notable enough to not have to rely soly on contemporary news reports to write an article on it in 2010. If you can find out the flight number of any old airliner's first major engine failure, and you can show that sources many years later discuss that flight's significance in enough detail to be able to create an entire article on it, and justify its inclusion here on it's own without giving UNDUE weight to the incident, then you can maybe dismiss this argument. You've given no such example here yet, so you cannot simply wave OTHERSTUFF at it and pretend that is a rebuttal at all. MickMacNee (talk) 22:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

• keep, due to extensive coverage in reliable sources. Citing WP:NOTNEWS by itself is not a reason for deletion, it needs to be proven that the event will have no lasting notability. "Too recent" is not an argument (there is no such thing as "recentism"), and WP:AIRCRASH is not a guideline. It is to early to tell if the event has lasting notability or not, therefore the article should not be irreversibly deleted but kept for now. --memset (talk) 21:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • NOT#NEWS is a perfectly valid stand-alone reason for deletion per the deletion policy, and recentism is a well understood concept among most experienced editors, it does exist and it is a real problem, and it's getting worse by the day. What is not a valid argument is claiming that because it's too soon to establish historical notability, you cannot delete it for having no historical notability. Neither is 'keep now, reconsider later'. This is has never ever been part of our inclusion policies at all. MickMacNee (talk) 22:20, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • We don't have "inclusion policies", we don't have to discuss and reach a consensus in order to include an article; instead we have to do this to delete an article. If we cannot determine (prove, reach a consensus) that a topic is not notable (for example, because it is too early to tell), then we keep the article. An no, just waving NOTNEWS is not a valid reason for deletion, the only thing that gets worse by day is that some people believe this. --memset (talk) 23:01, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • Firstly:Wikipedia:Criteria for inclusion. Secondly, you said wave, I said reason, as in Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Reasons for deletion. Thirdly, from those reasons - "content not suitable for an encyclopedia" which includes WP:NOT#NEWS. This is pretty core, top level stuff. MickMacNee (talk) 02:27, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• keep for now First serious failure with the biggest airplane in the world and grounding of a full fleet has resulted in world-wide concern. That gives enough grounds to assume this is not simply over yet; there is a limit to the applicability of not-news if the coverage is very large; we could however reconsider in 1 month or so... L.tak (talk) 21:42, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • "keep for now" has never been a wikipedia policy. If you vote keep, you are effectively stating that as long as our policies don't change in the future, then the article belongs here forever. MickMacNee (talk) 22:24, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
    • Well, forever is a long time. What I wanted to point out is that consensus can change and that increased understanding might lead to me endorsing a delete in time. But everything now points to an event notable to wikipedia. L.tak (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
      • No, the policies on what is and isn't notable can change, but if they don't, then the only way consensus on notability can change over time is if a delete becomes a keep, based on new evidence/sources being uncovered, or rediscovered. If it goes the other way, and over time a keep becomes a delete, then pretty obviously, the first judgement was wrong, and was based on either speculation, assumption, or a misunderstanding of the actual policy, since corrected. MickMacNee (talk) 23:08, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
        • Of course the judgement can change in any direction. Since someone has nominated the article now, we have to decide now whether the topic is going to have lasting notability. Unfortunately, since the event is recent, we have only limited information to make this decision, and have to rely on speculation and assumption (this is a not problem, don't confuse this with the unrelated WP:CRYSTAL policy). It is entirely possible that we will come to a different conclusion when more information is available. However, there is indeed an asymmetry: While a wrong decision not to delete an article can easily be corrected later by nominating it again with new, then available arguments, a wrong decision to delete the article is irreversible. This is why we keep articles by default, and delete them only when we can be sure that the topic is indeed not notable.--memset (talk) 01:00, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
          • I just really don't know where you got these ideas at all, they are so wrong on so many levels. Deletion is not irreversible, that is simply a basic fact, hard-wired into policy. And early Afd's do not need to rest on guesswork, that is again, hard wired in policy. People are perfectly allowed to back up their keep arguments with forward looking sources, or with essays that are based on the experience of past cases, like AIRCRASH, and even on guidelines based on past general experience, like EVENT, but no, guesswork and unsupported speculation/prediction, is completely inadmissable as pure junk science. And the 'keep by default' maxim realy has absolutely nothing to do with not being sure, or it being too early to judge. If the closure thinks that 'we' are not sure, he declares 'no consensus'. Again, this is hard wired into the deletion policy. Once someone closes as keep, that's it, and no, you do not get a second bite of the cherry later on unless actual policy changes, or the original deicision was proven to be incompetent. MickMacNee (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
            • I am not saying you are wrong on very many levels; yet I don't agree with you as on many levels; there is a grey area between black and white. Many people here are admitting they have no crystal ball, but indicate that the info we have now is over the treshold of notability in their judgement. That is not keep by default (please don't tell them they do) as they indicate this is an exceptional case. Furthermore, the basic fact that deletion is not irreversible might be true in theory; however for the average user a once-deleted article can not be used anymore and thus de facto irreversible for many. Also the, once someone closes as keep, that's it might be hard wired; practice shows there are other possibilities (re-noms etc)L.tak (talk) 06:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:AIRCRASH. Not really serious enough to warrant an own article. Content of the article should be condensed to be included as summary in the incident section of the Qantas, A380 and Trent900 articles. --Denniss (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
  • WP:NOTNEWS is not applicable in this case. This article clearly meets WP:AIRCRASH as follows : Principle 2 : Significant / lasting interest or impact (that is WP:CRYSTAL but so is everything recent on WP). Criteria A4 : Resulting in Grounding of A380s. 5. Suspension - all or part of an airline's fleet are grounded. Buckethed (talk) 00:51, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep as per WP:GNG. Guoguo12--Talk--  22:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Merge into Airbus_A380#Notable_incidents. This article meets Wikipedia guidelines for notability; however, as a non-hull-loss, non-fatal incident, it could be adequately summarized within the aircraft model's main entry. byronshock (talk) 22:39, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep It's the first incident involving an A380. It should be maintained on wikipedia. Adzma (talk) 23:26, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Sure. But where are our readers going to look for information? In the A380 article, that's where. I don't see any voices raised here to remove this incident from Wikipedia entirely, merely to remove this article about a specific Qantas flight. It's not an air crash, it's not a fatal accident, nor even causing injuries. It's just a fairly regular occurrence in air transport. The only notability is that it is a rare incident involving the A380, and that's where the information and references belong. In the A380 article. --Pete (talk) 01:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree, but that's what wikilinks and {{main}} are for. This incident deserves its own article, although it will still be mentioned in the A380 article. Guoguo12--Talk--  01:18, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Neutral In a high profile incident like this, someone is always going to create an article and someone else is always going to raise the AfD, that's just the way it works. But having a heated debate just hours after the incident isn't going to be very helpful, there is no need to waste vast quantities of effort in a mad rush to judgement in the heat of the moment. As our esteemed contributor Mjroots points out, give it a week and things will be much clearer. 84.9.38.188 (talk) 00:32, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Esteemed? Me? Mjroots (talk) 06:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:AIRCRASH. What next, a pilot sneezes and we write an article about it. Should be a redirect to the aircraft article, perhaps. --John (talk) 01:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Merge into the Airbus A380 article - failing both WP:NOTNEWS and WP:AIRCRASH are reasons enough that this article should not be standalone - it's not a disaster, nobody died, note it in the right place and shut this thing down! BarkingFish 01:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep per WP:AIRCRASH, notable first incident.Sumbuddi (talk) 02:13, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete WP:NOTNEWS. No one died, no one injured, minor incident in overall scheme of things. F (talk) 02:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep The incident is receiving substantial coverage, such as here from The New York Times and is being treated as a major issue in terms of the reliability of Rolls Royce's Trent 900 / 1000 family of engines. Alansohn (talk) 02:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • And where is the essay/guideline/policy that says that every major issue for an aircraft engine gets its own article on Wikipedia? We do actually have an article on the actual engine, what's stopping us from covering it there? Is it essential to have a whole separate article complete with infobox and other pretty stuff, detailing everything from the number of survivors, the name of the aircraft, and the exact time it landed, to be able to give adequate coverage to the effect this incident had on the engine family? MickMacNee (talk) 03:14, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Infact, let's get real here. That NYT article's basic topic is the failure of the engine and it's possible impact on Rolls Royce. Are you seriously suggesting that there is enough coverage out there on the interwebs to create and sustain the article Rolls-Royce Trent 900 failure of 4 November 2010, and that this would stand the test of time of historical notability and significance, even if in the completely unlikely event that the complete downfall of the company could be traced back to this one failure? Really? In an encyclopoedia? Maybe in Aviation-pedia, possibly, but not Wikipedia. This is a perfect illustration of exactly why the GNG is a presumption, and not a free pass, especially for news events. MickMacNee (talk) 03:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep 120.151.44.67 (talk) 03:28, 5 November 2010 (UTC) — 120.151.44.67 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Strong Keep The first incident of the Airbus A380 should be kept in Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.137.99.162 (talk) 03:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC) — 189.137.99.162 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete..but sometimes articles have enough input to become a standalone article. I haven't seen much input in this one, but I have seen that there has been a lot of coverage in the news, but as much people have said above WP:AIRCRASH should prevail here. So delete and merge the info with Qantas article. Thanks --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 04:18, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Mostly per WP:CHANCE and WP:DEMOLISH. Although deletion may possibly be the correct call down the road, I think the nomination was a little hasty in this case. Not wrong, just a little too quick for my liking. It will be virtually impossible to make a determination one way or the other while the event is still current. I also tend to think that WP:NOTNEWS gets overused slightly; even if something just happened yesterday, that doesn't automatically preclude it from being a notable event. As things stand, I think this has a decent chance for survival, mainly because of the type of aircraft involved and the potential ramifications, but it's probably best to table the issue for now and renominate in a few months, if desired, when we won't have to rely almost exclusively on guesswork. --Bongwarrior (talk) 04:31, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. My opinion on this one was solicited; apparently someone is concerned there is some votestacking being attempted. For now I trust that the usual AfD process will sort that out.

  As for this article, I don't see why we should delete it. It seems to meet criterion A5 at WP:AIRCRASH in a broad way, by forcing the grounding of a fleet of aircraft and raising issues with the engine. It has received more than enough news coverage. If it isn't worthy of its own article over time, we can easily incorporate what has already been written into another article.

  I am mystified at why this was nrominated; it seems some editors feel a need for stricter standards. Well, they can have that —by actually attempting to modify those standards, not setting a precedent at AfD. Daniel Case (talk) 05:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

  • Comment That section is headed If the accident or incident matches criteria only in this section, then coverage should normally be on the article about the aircraft or airline. --John (talk) 06:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep: an accident does not have to have casualties to be notable. The fact that an engine break up into pieces (not just fails and stops working) is very notable. The fact that it occurred on an Airbus A380 with nearly 500 passengers lives at risks certainly makes this notable. The fact that large chunks fell on the ground and could have killed people also makes this accident notable. Victor Victoria (talk) 06:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment Qantas' Airbus A380's carry the similar amount of people as its Boeing 747's, Qantas' 747's have has issues but not every single incident has an article even though peoples lives were at risk. But this should not be about the risk to lives, reporting of assumptions and what could have happened. I can't get over the bad faith from both sides of this AfD but seems to be common. I still feel that we should wait 30 days which is when the ATSB will give more detail but I do feel that notability is now debatable however this article should be moved somewhere for improvements and readded once the cause, effects of the cause (once undoubtedly known) and changes to the aviation industry (it is too soon to make assumptions which is what the media is currently doing). @Daniel Case, a bit of good faith would be nice, I listed this with a reason and I'm sure any other editor here would have done the same. Bidgee (talk) 07:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Merge to Airbus A380, as an important event in the history of this product. As it has some notability, and affects the history of the product, it should be in the product article. 76.66.203.138 (talk) 09:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment: How is QF32 any different in notability from US Airways Flight 1549? Both had engine trouble, both landed safely (albeit the latter in a river), and all passengers and crew on board survived. I don't think we had an AfD debate on the notability of Flight 1549 (correct me if I am wrong) Lcmortensen (mailbox) 09:33, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Hull was written off (WP:AIRCRASH); notable first 100% successful water landing of a wide-body jet. Socrates2008 (Talk) 09:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Two things: a) WP:AIRCRASH does not mention hull loss in the notability criteria for their own articles, and even after that, US1549 was only written off because of the methods used to extract the jet from the river. If no hull loss and no deaths were not notable, the notability of British Airways Flight 9 would be questionable (fills A6 only). b) The Airbus A320 is a narrow-body jet - it only has one aisle. Lcmortensen (mailbox) 11:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• a) "The accident involved hull loss or serious damage to the aircraft or airport.". BA-9 resulted in significant changes to aviation procedures wrt active volcanoes. b) Yes, "widebody" was the incorrect terminology on my part. :-) Socrates2008 (Talk) 11:20, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete WP:AIRCRASH Nicob1984 (talk) 09:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment: People have used WP:AIRCRASH to justify its keeping. Are you using a specific user's rationale? Or if it is your own, what is it? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:21, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment - Since the plane landed with no one killed, and since the company has temporarily grounded its Airbus planes, it does seem like a story that belongs inside the Qantas article. However, maybe this story could be userfied to see if anything major comes of it. Either that, or the OP could stash the info on his computer and wait. But planes have mechanical problems all the time, and unless they crash, it's usually just a news blurb. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - This is the most serious incident ever to happen to Qantas, after the 747 exploding oxygen tank. Do not delete as this is a useful source of awareness for all wikipedia visitors Ceecookie (talk) 10:08, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:ITSUSEFUL. LibStar (talk) 11:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete as per WP:NOTNEWS, no fatalities no injuries, in 2 weeks time won't be even in the news cycle. LibStar (talk) 11:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• So what? A notable event does not mean to have fatalities and to be covered in news for months. Elmao (talk) 12:04, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

• Keep - This is a catastrophic uncontained engine failure that appears to be the A380 equivalent of American Airlines Flight 96. Of particular significance is the damage the failing engine did to the aircraft's control systems. In my view, an important issue will be whether this incident is followed by an A380 equivalent of Turkish Airlines Flight 981. That would be more likely if the incident is treated as the sort of trivial incident that doesn't warrant a Wikipedia article. Bahnfrend (talk) 11:59, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Strong keep clearly meets WP:N, airline grounds the fleet, possible design flaw in the engine itself suspected. How often do modern airliners lose a part of the engine in flight ???--Wikireader41 (talk) 12:15, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Seriously relevent to wikipedia involves the first grounding of the Airbus A380 series and invloved serious damage to left wing, engine + mounting & debris on indonisean islands. I recommend it be kept on the grounds that it is currently in the public eye.Kavs8 (talk) 13:16, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep. Extensive media coverage. More than 5,000 items on Google News. [7] --Edcolins (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - serious incident for the airline; serious incident for the Airbus A380; it's already developed into a huge deal. Plenty of reliable sources. Perhaps it would be worthwhile revisiting in six months or so, but for now I think it should be kept. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 14:45, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Caused damage to control lines to #1 engine & flaps, meaning the A380 landed with control of only 2 of 4 engines. An A380 landing with only 2 engines, faulty flaps and blowing 4 tires is surely notable. Not to mention the two injuries on the ground (but personally I don't think notability should be based on whether a piece of debris hits someone or misses them...). It seems pretty much random chance that debris went one way (into the wing) rather than another (into the hull) which could have had catastrophic consequences. Also a similar incident has occurred just now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11702365 (Qantas 747 operating QF6 returns to Singapore shortly after takeoff due to engine trouble) Bramley (talk) 16:05, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Consequences are unfolding because of this - the BEA is getting involved (I just added a link to the BEA page about this) WhisperToMe (talk) 16:07, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - This events turns out to be more serious than first anticipated. There may be serious systematic faults to the engines. Nisselua (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2010 (UTC)