Talk:Thomas Jefferson

Slavery section

I boldly made quite a few changes here, including reinserting mention of Kościuszko's will, which I think is too important to exclude. I left in and was constantly at odds with other slaveholders among the "planter elite", but tagged it for citation; I don't think it's true that he was "constantly at odds" with his peers about their slaveholding. Of course I'm willing to have other editors change what I see as fixes. Yopienso (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Have just added two cites for the sentence in question. TJF (again) and Randall, 1994, p.xviii

His early legal studies were often the result of pioneering cases on slavery, divorce and religious freedom that he took on without fee. and ... Jefferson the young lawyer clashed repeatedly with aristocratic Tidewater land speculators and slave owners.. -- Randall.

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Gw', and for your answer above. I'm going to change the exaggerated "constantly at odds" to indicate it was when he was a young lawyer that he clashed with the aristocrats. Otherwise, being in the same sentence with "Jefferson remained opposed to slavery throughout his life," the implication is that throughout his life he was constantly at odds with the planter elite. Such wasn't the case; for all practical purposes, he couldn't beat 'em so he joined 'em. Yopienso (talk) 00:47, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, Jefferson was opposed to the institution of slavery all his life, so the idea that he was "constantly at odds" with other slave owners is no leap of the imagination. Perhaps 'constantly' is overstated, as this would imply that he was going at it with some slave owner every day or week of his life. We can say he 'often clashed with the planter elite', as I'm sure he did, given the DOI draft with its anti-slavery language, all the emancipation legislation he tried to advance in addition to such activity during his lawyer years. And I'm sure he didn't get invited to a lot of "planter elite" parties when he outlawed the international slave trade. As you point out we have a source that notes Jefferson's involvement when he was a lawyer, yes, but you seem to be suggesting that this is the only time any 'clashing' took place. That would seem far from the case. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:08, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

"Constantly at odds with other slave owners" is a big leap of the imagination from silently opposing slavery. (There was discussion a while back about his "thunderous silence," or some such expression.) "Constantly at odds" paints a man in the face of his neighbors and fellows, poking and hounding. I don't find any such record. He flamboyantly opposed slavery in his young lawyer years in marked contrast to his later silence. He seems to fit the typical pattern of the young idealist who becomes the middle-aged pragmatist and eventually an old man resigned to the status quo. Outlawing the international slave trade hindered the domestic institution and trade not a whit; it strengthened them.

Finkelman, on p. 125 of Slavery and the Founders, writes, "From the time he returned from France in 1789 until his death in 1826, Jefferson never took a public position in opposition to slavery, while often supporting the institution." Do we have any RSs that contradict that? Yopienso (talk) 01:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

You're mixing words. "constantly" is consistent with 'opposed all his life'. Regardless if he was "silent" during his eight years as President there is plenty of historical evidence throughout his life that he was at odds with slaveholders in general "elite" or otherwise, including the time during his presidency when he outlawed the slave trade, an institution that remained in operation because of powerful pro-slavery forces who were at odds, i.e.not happy with, Jefferson and his outlawing of the slave trade. In any event I changed the phrase to frequently at odds with other slaveholders, land speculators among the "planter elite" cited, as 'constantly' was perhaps overstating the matter a bit. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:17, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I've revised it again to be consistent with what Randall says. I've also removed what I considered an awkward phrase: "at the center of economic production"; it was strange to have it in quotation marks when we could just rephrase it. This was a vestige from a discussion about what a "slave society" is, IIRC. I removed the assertion that slaves "managed the entire estate" since, with very few exceptions, slaves were workers, not managers; the owners managed the estates and the slaves who did the work. Plus other copyediting. Yopienso (talk) 03:42, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Well enough. Your edit will do but instead of 'manage', we should chose a term that reflects the fact that slaves at Monticello ran almost everything.
Not sure who added the "at the center of economic production" phrase. I have no problems with its revision as that too was an over statement. Article is rife with pov. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:06, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

[Additional : ] Yopienso, you changed 'frequently' to 'repeatedly', yet you had issues with the word 'constantly'. Constantly and repeatedly are virtually identical in meaning. Also, are you expecting a separate citation for each stage of Jefferson's life (DOI language, emancipation legislation, etc, etc) where he was 'at odds' with other slave owners? Instead of picking at these things it would be nice, if you are so inclined, to get help in citing them. I will be doing this later, by myself apparently, as I have to run for now. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:32, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson was not at odds with other slave owners. Ending the slave trade increased the value of domestic slaves. There was little opposition to ending the slave trade. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. So do RS's. Increased vale of slaves is a Finkleman speculation and even if true, wasn't something that materialized anytime soon. Does any one else say this? Is there historical evidence that also confirms this? Also, please give us the RS that says slave owners were all overjoyed with the outlawing of the slave trade and that TJ had no arguments or opposition from other slaveholders and land speculators. Again, the slave trade was widely regarded as a criminal and inhumane activity and to suggest that Jefferson, Congress and everyone else passed the law just to see see an increase in domestic slave value is nonsense. If all they were interested in is profits it would seem to me they wold allow the slave trade to continue. Your notion that Jefferson was not at odds with other slaveholders is not only naive it tells us you don't do much reading. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:03, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

• International v. domestic slave trade

Jenny Bourne Wahl, Professor at Carleton College:

Prices for slaves fluctuated with market conditions as well as with individual characteristics. U.S. slave prices fell around 1800 as the Haitian revolution sparked the movement of slaves into the Southern states. Less than a decade later, slave prices climbed when the international slave trade was banned, cutting off legal external supplies. Interestingly enough, among those who supported the closing of the trans-Atlantic slave trade were several Southern slaveowners. Why this apparent anomaly? Because the resulting reduction in supply drove up the prices of slaves already living in the U.S and, hence, their masters' wealth. . .

• "Constantly" v. "frequently" v. "repeatedly"

These are close, but not exact, synonyms. The first means unceasingly; the second, often; the third, several times. I felt it best to stick with the source, which clearly says he repeatedly clashed with the elite when he was a young lawyer, which is far different from saying he constantly was at odds with them his whole life long. (The source also points out that not only slavery was a source of conflict; adultery and divorce were, too. So we don't really know how many times he clashed with the elite specifically over slavery since many of the records burned up with the Shadwell home. We know about Howell v. Netherland and a few others.

Being at odds with the elite is not the same as opposing slavery. Constantly being at odds with the elite is not the same as opposing slavery his whole life long.

Randall, p. 144:

All his adult life, Thomas Jefferson seems to have tossed and turned in an agony of ambivalence over the dilemma of slavery and freedom. Repeatedly he sought to have public institutions relieve him of the burden of his conscience while he tried to avoid giving offense to his close-knit family and the slaveowning society of his beloved Virginia. He knew slavery was evil, he called it evil and spoke out against it in a series of public forums, but he would only push so far--and then he would fall back on a way of life utterly dependent on slave labor.

• New suggestion for first paragraph of slavery section

We can't have slaves managing Monticello. Not sure if we want all the detail you added since this is about Jefferson and slavery, not about slavery at Monticello.

Over the course of his life, Thomas Jefferson owned about 600 slaves, requiring about 130 at any one time to work at Monticello. Slaves carried out most of the activities on the plantation which included planting, harvesting, cooking, cleaning. Some did highly skilled work as carpenters, blacksmiths, furniture makers, chefs and caretakers. Others worked in the textile factory or sawmill, while others built carriages Jefferson designed or repaired guns and and did other metalwork, some being paid by nearby farmers for work done in Monticello's blacksmith shop.

Yopienso (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Yopienso for the validation on price of slaves increasing after banning the importation of slaves. Gwillhickers, we do not know the motivations of early 19th Century slave owners. Jefferson wanted to control the number of slaves coming into the country to prevent slave rebellion. The Haitian rebellion where the slaves revolted was very violent, and Jefferson humanely did not want this to occur in the United States. Source: [Matthewson (1995), p. 211] Cmguy777 (talk) 01:56, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Yopienso for pointing out that prices of slaves fluctuated and that slave prices fell in 1800 and for noting things like the Haitian revolution which evidently impacted the market also. Also, while the price of slaves went up (immediately? by how much?) its interesting to note that among those who supported the closing of the trans-Atlantic slave trade were several Southern slaveowners. "Several", certainly not 'all', and to assume Jefferson was not at odds with those slave holders and others who wanted the slave trade to exist is foolishness. Again, there is historical evidence that Jefferson was constantly/frequently/repeatedly at odds (take your pick) over slavery with many, not all, slave holders, almost all his life. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Yopienso, One way that the idea of 'Jefferson and slavery' can be 'demonstrated' is by showing how he managed and treated his slaves and how they lived at Monticello. This will give the reader a more clear insight about Jefferson and slavery than the narrow views and leaps to 'conclusions' we sometimes see around here. Besides, there is already plenty of coverage about Jefferson's views, attempts at abolition, silence, etc in the section already.
-- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:50, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

editbreak4

...to assume Jefferson was not at odds with those slave holders and others who wanted the slave trade to exist is foolishness. What is it to assume he was at odds with them? Where is your reliably sourced historical evidence that he was c/f/r at odds with slave holders almost all his life? We've established he fell silent; where's the clashing with slave holders then?

Have already pointed out that there was plenty of reasons why Jefferson was at odds. One RS, Randall, has him at odds as a lawyer. Other RS's show how Jefferson was at odds with pro-slavery forces when they removed his anti-slavery language from the original DOI. When he tried to advance emancipation legislation he was largely opposed there, also, where his bills were defeated. Then there's the slave trade, where you point out that not all slave holders went along with outlawing this. "What is it to assume"? -- Why would you ever not assume? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll leave the amount of detail about slaves' work up to others. Yopienso (talk) 05:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, but at one point there was more speculation and commentary than there were factual details, all the while the section sat there for months with no introduction and zero details about the lives of the actual slaves. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:47, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, Thomas Jefferson and slavery covers Thomas Jefferson's slaves and slave life on Monticello. Up until 1785 Jefferson was public on the subject of slavery. Ferling argues, however, that he was a conservative in the State legislature and the Manumission Law of 1782 was passed while Jefferson was not part of the State legislature. Ferling states that the law would not have passed had Jefferson been in the State legislature since he was a conservative. In other words, Jefferson was at odds with other more liberal slave owners who desired to set their slaves free. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

The current slavery section reads as if Thomas Jefferson were an abolitionist. Jefferson reluctantly freed to slaves in his life time. He bought and sold slaves participating in the domestic slave trade. Here is a suggestion: "When Thomas Jefferson assumed the Presidency he publically denounced southern slave holders. Then through Executive Order he freed all the slaves in the South. There were those who protested, but Jefferson sent in the U.S. miltary to squash the rebellion. Then Southern whites following Jefferson's example made blacks their equals and gave them voting rights and citizenship protecting their civil rights with the Civil Rights Act of 1805. Since then blacks and whites have lived in harmony." Cmguy777 (talk) 06:04, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Jefferson was always opposed to slavery and made many attempts to end it. i.e.He was an abolitionist. You can't just claim he wasn't because he didn't free all of his slaves. There is much much more to consider, but I'm afraid you will have to count past four to understand . And the 'other views' you claim I am not allowing have been and remain in the article. i.e.buying, selling, silence, etc. so please pay attention to what you're saying and stop your childish horn blowing. Getting tired of your false accusations. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Find a good source for the sentence "Jefferson bought and sold slaves" and add it and the cite, as it does seem appropriate info for the section. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I added Joyce Appleby reference that Jefferson sold slaves when he needed money and in daily life he was a practical plantation slave owner. Appleby is a solid source. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Please update the bibliography. We need that info for proper cite. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed Added Appleby and Betts sources. Added informaton on buying slaves. Jefferson rarely bought slaves since his slave women were reproducing slaves and adding to his "capital". Cmguy777 (talk) 20:47, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

 FixedAdded context to isolated statements that did not reflect Jefferson's regard for slaves. Cm' your language was blunt and narrow in its perspective, and I think you know that. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers you are the one that is blunt and narrow in perspective. I resent that you are not allowing differing points of view on slavery in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 07:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : I have only included important context that was long missing in this section. And I see the introduction has been striped away and it starts right in with 'Jefferson relied'. You are trying to turn the section into a political hit piece all over again. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert :I have accurately represented an Appleby reference. You contention is what Appleby is stating, not my edit. You have misrepresented Appleby by adding your own hand picked references that represents Jefferson as an abolitionist. You are making the article extremely biased by not allowing other points of view on Jefferson and slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:36, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Again, I have added content long missing in this section. Once again, the 'other views' you claim I am "not allowing" have been and remain in the article, not only in the Slavery section but the 'Controversy and 'Reputation sections as well. This is horn blowing. Again, you need to pay attention to discussions. You have a habit of ignoring almost everything. It's become sort of obvious you've been reaching for ways to bury Jefferson entirely. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:25, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I've moved the troublesome "repeatedly/frequently/often at odds" up to the lawyer and burgess section, as the source does not focus on cases involving slavery, but on a spectrum of cases on social issues including slavery, divorce, and religious freedom. See pp. xviii and 95 of Randall.

I'm going to go ahead and implement a change I suggested above, because the introduction to the slavery section implies that hundreds of slaves lived at Monticello at the same time. A casual reader would see that opening sentence and the slave list image mentioning 600 slaves and conclude there were always 600 slaves on the plantation, where in actuality there were almost always fewer than 200.

We could almost start the slavery section from scratch to show there were two slaveries TJ and America faced at the turn of the 19th century: the international trade and the domestic trade. (Another two were the legal trade and the illegal trade, but that's not within the scope of a bio on TJ.) TJ's had two opposing responses to slavery in general: a philosophical, humane one, and a pragmatic, plantation-owner one. He was instrumental in stopping the international trade, which did not hurt him or his fellows but made him feel good about himself, while perpetuating the domestic trade. This would make a far better structure than the mish-mash we have now. Yopienso (talk) 06:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Yopienso, you will need to find a RS's that says Jefferson outlawed the slave trade to make himself feel better. I'm sure he did feel better when it was outlawed, as would anyone who made such efforts and succeeded, but this is not something that even approaches the idea that this was Jefferson's only reason. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers you have completely misrepresented Appleby as a source, you twist the wording always to make Jefferson look like an abolitionist, you are in fact extremely biased in your editing. Cmguy777 (talk) 07:10, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson was an abolitionist and there is tons of historical evidence that says so with RS's. Since when did trying to end slavery make someone not an abolitionist? Also, please outline what I have "twisted". All I did was added context to your cherry picked and isolated Appleby comments. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:35, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Appleby does not state Jefferson was an abolitionist. You add words to Appleby's reference that falsely misrepresent Appleby's statements on Jefferson and slavery in order to make Jefferson appear to be an abolitionist. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

You're just kicking up dust. All I did was add context -- sorry it flew in the face of Appleby's isolated comments. It is important to let the readers know about Jefferson's management of slaves. Yes, he "bought and sold" them, but that is how their placement was handled during his time. It would seem you want to construe this into something that portrays Jefferson as some sort of heartless slave merchant who looked at slaves like they were cattle -- and this is far from what established historical facts tell us. Jefferson was very conscientious about slaves lives and rarely, if every split up families. Nearly all the slaves Jefferson ever 'sold' was after he had died, to settle his estate. As much as he had sympathy for slaves his first alegiance was to his family, and so his slaves were sold to help settle his estate and not leave his family a burden, which btw, also assured slaves of ample placement, shelter, food, etc. Goodness, we've counted past four, haven't we? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:52, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

editbreak5

I've made substantial changes to the slavery section again.

• Replaced the topic sentence, which is about TJ and slavery, not about slaves at Monticello.

Insert The topic of Jefferson and slavery revolves around slaves. People. The sentence you stuck at the beginning is statement about what Jefferson relied on, not about slavery, so I will be returning this otherwise isolated comment where it has context. i.e.Not as a lede sentence. Slaves, people, is the topic slavery revolved around -- not what Jefferson "relied on". Is it also your intention to remove how slaves spent their lives? Section needs an intro' that sets the entire scene of Jefferson and slavery. The first isolated comment you stuck in the beginning does not do this. Please pay more mind to composure and writting style. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Paying due heed to composition and writing style, I see the best introduction to the section is a topic sentence that speaks directly to the relationship between TJ and the institution of slavery. You needed to change the title of the section to fit your agenda! The crux of the matter is that Jefferson relied on slavery even though he disliked the idea of human bondage.

• Removed the uncited assertion that slaves didn't do much work during the winter. All activities listed in the intro to the section except agriculture would have continued unabated, and there is a great deal of work involved in storing crops, preparing seed and seedlings, and maintaining equipment in the farming dept.

Insert : That day I read through many sources and for the life of me I can not find that source/page again. It did say "most activities", not all. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• Changed sentence about Christmas to accurately reflect source; fixed citation.

Insert : There was nothing wrong with the sentence or the citation. What are you doing on your end? --- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by, "What are you doing on your end?"

Your version suggested a picture of a cheery Christmas gathering with all the great-aunts and uncles, etc., during a leisurely winter season devoted to R&R. I apologize for being pointy with "families sundered by bondage"; I didn't really intend to leave that in. The very next sentence after the one from the Monticello site you paraphrased is In 1808, Davy Hern traveled all the way to Washington where his wife Fanny worked at the President’s House to be with her for the holidays. Here we don't see the a reunion of extended family, but of husband and wife separated by work assignments. It is misleading to write in a way that suggests otherwise.

Wrt to the citation, if you go to the diff and check footnote #190, you will see it does not go to Monticello.org but to "Editing Thomas Jefferson (section)."

• Reverted back to "As a young lawyer" as per both sources. 1. . . .Jefferson the young lawyer clashed repeatedly with aristocratic Tidewater land speculators and slaveowners. Randall, p. xviii 2. Early in his political career Jefferson took actions that he hoped would end in slavery's abolition....if Jefferson had died in 1785, he would be remembered as an antislavery hero, as "one of the first statesmen anywhere to advocate concrete measures for eradicating slavery." After that time, however, there came a "thundering silence." Jefferson made no public statements on American slavery nor did he take any significant public action to change the course of his state or his nation.

Insert : This is just one source, again there are others that have Jefferson opposed to other slave owners during his life. Apparently you want a cite for every stage of his life that he was in opposition and this is not necessary as the other historical facts in the section support the claim. i.e.His DOI experience, attempts at emancipation, etc. Also, you had issues with the idea of 'constantly' yet you used the word 'repeatedly'. Again, what are you doing?? The second source is wrong, Jefferson did not do nothing during his presidency, he outlawed the slave trade hoping to attack slavery in this way and also spoke out against it at this time as Schulz once pointed out. This was discussed, remember? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The 2 sources are: 1. Randall, 2. Monticello.org. Innumerable more agree, and the citations given clearly say, "Jefferson the young lawyer" and "Early in his political career" and "After that time, there came a thundering silence." You cannot use those sources to say he clashed with the elite throughout his lifetime. (No source I'm aware of agrees with you on this.)

To me, constantly means "without interruption" and repeatedly means "time and again," implying their are lapses between the times.

You are repeating your twisting of Schulz's words. Yes, we discussed this, and the consensus was that TJ spoke out against slavery early in his career but later in his career did not.

• Removed "indulgent" to characterize TJ's attitude and actions toward his slaves and added and cited that he had them flogged as deemed necessary.

Insert : The idea of indulged is backed by the source. Your 'version' is not nearly as accurate and leads the reader into believing that Jefferson did not oppose the use of the whip resorting to it only in exceptional cases and insisted that whipping be only used on arms and legs and there are sources that say so:
He avoided the flogging of slaves, which he believed would “degrade them in their own eyes,” and rarely approved the use of the whip on his plantations. A former Monticello slave, Peter Fossett recalled that “slaves were seldom punished, except for stealing and fighting.” -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

except for stealing and fighting = when he felt punishment was necessary

Also note how TJ's slaves fared when he was not around; that, too, is part of the story and he bore the responsibility for his overseers' actions.

• Restored and condensed final sentence to the end of the section instead of the beginning if the last paragraph. No citation needed, as it recapitulates much of the preceding text.

Insert : Why are you not using this 'policy' in your treatment of Jefferson being at odds all his life?? Again, the idea 'at odds all his life' is supported by the article text. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

TJ wasn't at odds with the Tidewater elite all his life. He was their good friend and neighbor. Yopienso (talk) 00:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The article you refer/linked to doesn't even mention Tidewater. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC) Also, could you go back to using standard, black, text? the red lettering is very difficult to read. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• I also made numerous less important edits. Yopienso (talk) 05:13, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Inert : Yopienso, you actually made a mess out of the section so I am reverting and will make any improvements as needed. If you want to help please discuss before making sweeping reverts to sourced contributions. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The record shows Yopienso has discussed a lot. So, the objection has no basis. The edits were neither sweeping nor unhelpful.Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:10, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

ASW, he made statements on the talk page and then numerous reverts before any response or discussion occurred and for openers stuck an isolated out of context statement at the beginning as an introduction. His statement about flogging left out very important context and he fashioned an excuse to leave an unsourced statement in the section, supported by other text, but did not use this approach regarding Jefferson being at odds with slaveholders most of his life, an idea that is well supported by other text. We can deliberate about what is 'sweeping' but the edits were not very helpful and gave a skewed picture of what really occurred. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I do not have an issue with combining references if both sources ideas are held intact and remaining in the author's syntax. The article needs to present Jefferson neutrally as a slave owner without making judgement or attempting to justify slavery. The readers need to be allowed to make their own assessments of Jefferson. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

The only way readers can "be allowed to make their own assessments of Jefferson" is to provide them with historical context. For some reason you want to blot out the perspective that in spite of slavery, slaves had a home at Monticello and were treated well. They were rarely whipped and only in extreme cases. Seems if you had your way you would portray Jefferson as a cattle driver who whiped and abused slaves every day. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers you make slavery sound like a family trip to Disneyland. I have never stated Jefferson was a cattle driver who whipped and abused his slaves everyday. Your protectionism of Jefferson as a slave owner is astounding. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:00, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Disneyland? This is not only more of your distorted horn-blowing, it's utter crap. I am merely adding long omitted context to the myopic and short-sighted view of slavery we have seen in the past around here. I believe it's called 'balance'. You obviously want to portray Jefferson as a 'slave driver' who had no more regard for his slaves than he did for live-stock. As can easily be demonstrated from numerous RS's, this is far from the case. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC wrt Slavery section

Can we please build a consensus on this page for or against the changes I made yesterday? I have responded in orange to the "inserts" above. To summarize, do we agree or disagree with the following?:

• The section title should be restored to "Slavery."

That has been its title for ages, and was apparently changed to accommodate one editor's idea of what the scope of the section should be. Note that it links to an article titled "Thomas Jefferson and slavery," not "Slaves and slavery."

Agree. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• Wrt to Christmas: During the Christmas season slave families separated by work assignments could take a few days off to reunite and celebrate.

Disagree. Slaves were under slavery 24 hours a day 7 days a week, unless manumitted. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Excuse me, but no one said that slaves were free during Christmas, so once again, this is just horn-blowing. Please respond to what has been written, not to what you wish was written so you can blow a horn. Your activity on this page is becoming less than truthful. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:20, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• TJ spoke out against slavery only at the beginning of his career. He never liked it, but he did not agitate against it in his mature years. Yopienso (talk) 00:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Comment: After 1785 Jefferson was publically silent on domestic slavery. He did speak out against the slave trade while President in 1806. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Find a source for that and put it in. The other issues don't matter much to me. I have added context to the christmas thing from the source but I agree the whole sentence could go, as it is minor, and belongs more in the sub article than here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses; I'm hoping for more.
Christmas was, in fact, a holiday for slaves. The source is this page from Monticello.org; see the last 3 paragraphs. This page isn't a RS in itself, but quotes several reliable sources, particularly in the last half. One source it quotes is Booker T. Washington. The entire piece is here, and is invaluable to us. Being published by the NPS makes it a secondary source, I think. Washington writes of the joys of Christmas and also gives examples of families separated by work assignments being united for the holiday.
Yes, TJ signed the bill outlawing the Atlantic slave trade, but continued to participate in the domestic trade. He did not continue to get in the face of his peers about the basic injustice of slavery itself like he had when he was a young lawyer. Yopienso (talk) 03:17, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes he did. He "got in the face" of those who were opposing legislation to outlaw the slave trade. Jefferson opposed slavery and the slave trade on the same basic set of principles and morals, however he was much more adamant towards the trade because of its inhumane and brutal aspects, and because he detested the sort of people who financed and organized it. His presumed "silence" is largely based on the absence of abolitionist language in his speeches. That's about it. I have already pointed out via RS as to why this occured (i.e.deep political divisions, pro-slavery forces), and also have several times referred to where Jefferson indeed voices his opposition against slavery during his presidency, so it would seem we're just going around in the same circle here. The idea that Jefferson was at odds with other slave owners and land speculators (who needed great numbers of slaves, quickly, they couldn't do this by running around trying to buy them from other planters who needed them), is well established by sources and existing text, also sourced. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:13, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Row row row your "bloat"

First of all let me say that I'm impressed with the current version.. good work! As usual there are a few things to point out:

• The top paragraph describing slave life at Monticello has no relevancy when the article on Monticello has an entire section devoted to slave life. It's out of place and only adding to the article bloat now at almost 15,000 words. This article is not about Monticello slave life; it's about TJ.

• Correction: A much larger part of slave life at Monticello is already in the main TJ and Slavery article: Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#Monticello_slave_life. Brad (talk) 17:15, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

• The infamous weasel words are apparent. "Many", "some" "other" "Long admired" etc.
• TJ frequently referred to his slaves as "my/our people" depending on context in addition to calling them servants.
• Please find more than one source to cite this "600" number that keeps kicking around. Cite it directly after "600".
• If TJ sold slaves when he needed money how come he was heavily in debt when he died? So far in my personal reading I've read about TJ taking loans, rolling over notes and selling his books to the LOC; but not slave selling as a source of income. Brad (talk) 16:54, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

(WP:INDENT)Potential answer: 130 slaves were sold off to pay TJ's debts after he died. That means that Jefferson spent allot of money entertaining people at Monticello. Appleby, a respected source, states that Jefferson sold slaves to pay for his debts. He could not sell all of them since he had to keep slaves to run the Monticello plantation. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:23, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The article currently says: He would sell off or reassign uncooperative slaves from Monticello, and when Jefferson needed money, he also sold slaves. This is not the same thing as his slaves being sold after his death. After his death it wasn't TJ that sold slaves to pay debts; it was the executor of his estate in trust to Martha Jefferson. In order for the article to keep the above quoted passage some reference to TJ selling slaves because he needed money before his death should be presented. Brad (talk) 11:37, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Always can do better

1) aqree, not so much relevancy but as to pertinence/need. Let's make it shorter.

2) meh.

3) not sure it matters

4) More sources are always better

5) He also kept slaves to support himself. So, it would probably just depend on the present need/opportunity. Perhaps, he like GW also had a hard time selling land. His whole planter class was constantly in debt. But I suppose your question is about the source? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:34, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

So far as I can tell the number "600" referencing the number of people that Jefferson held as slaves does not appear as such in the Cohen source text (I found a copy here. The actual number of people that were held in servitude by Jefferson during his lifetime is complicated by the fact that some of them were dower slaves or slaves inherited through other legal means and, as such, Jefferson held these people in trust for other persons. I ran a revisions search for the phrase "600 slaves" to see if the edit summary would give a reason for the number that has since been lost in subsequent edits. What I found is: "The more than 600 slaves who lived at Monticello during Jefferson's lifetime are listed." with "<ref name="Smithsonian"/>" as the reference. The Smithsonian reference has been lost through subsequent edits but it is this link: [:http://si.edu/Exhibitions/Details/Slavery-at-Jefferson%27s-Monticello-Paradox-of-Liberty-4757]. The number of "600" is referenced at the Monticello website: [:http://www.monticello.org/slavery-at-monticello]. Also, the New York Times review of the "Life, Liberty and the Fact of Slavery" exhibit states:

"We enter the show’s 3,000-square-foot space seeing a life-size statue of Jefferson (created by StudioEIS in Brooklyn), standing in front of a red panel on which are inscribed the names (when known) of some 600 slaves who worked on his estates during his lifetime."

Hope this all helps, Shearonink (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks it is helpful. It also highlights another relatively minor detail that maybe slightly misleading in our current text in this section. Jefferson owned other estates besides Monticello. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Shearonink for the research on the number given. It's important that we don't allow this number to be used without context. That some of the slaves were held in trust and not all of that number worked at Monticello. The other estates were Poplar Forest and the one sacked by the British whose name escapes me atm. Simply saying that TJ owned 600 slaves during his lifetime is misleading. Brad (talk) 12:04, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

DYK that slaves actually had lives?

The 'Monticello' section is really about Monticello, yet I think it would be nice if this section briefly mentioned that it was home to Jefferson's slaves. However, brief coverage of the slave's lives and activities reflects how Jefferson treated and managed his slaves and says much more to the reader than any narrow out of context opinion ever will and belongs in the 'Slaves and Slavery' section. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:07, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Unproductive WP:IDHT

Gwillhickers, any "freedoms" allowed under Jefferson were done only at his mercy. These slaves had no rights on their own. There were no laws to protect slaves. The current articles POV is that since Jefferson allowed Christmas celebration for his slaves, therefore, slavery was a good institution. That goes beyond the Jefferson biography attempting to make slavery look like a picnic. By the way, Christ came to earth to give us liberty and freedom (Galatians 5:1). Jefferson's slaves had to celebrate Christmas remaining in bondage. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:01, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, we all know slaves did not have freedom. Again, your simple 2+2 analysis leaves out so much. If Jefferson did not allow slaves to celebrate Christmas you would be howling about that instead. But since he did, all you can do now it seems is blow the usual horn. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe that Wikipedia is suppose to remain neutral on Jefferson and slavery. The article should not in any way condemn Jefferson for owning slaves, however, I believe the current POV is attempting to justify Jefferson's slave ownership. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:17, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Presenting missing historical content/context is neutral. All that is being done with the treatment of slaves and slavery is to show how Jefferson's feelings about slaves and slavery went beyond 'theory' and was something he practiced. Don't know why this is something that upsets you. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not upset Gwillhickers. However, to present slavery in such a light hearted fashion in this article is POV. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:02, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

Now I am being 'Lighthearted'. Slavery needs to be viewed as it was practiced. This is the best way to portray Jefferson and slavery. Pounding the drum that "Jefferson sold slaves" by itself not only is a short-sighted distortion, it deepens racial resentments among the population. Seems this is exactly what some have had in mind in the past -- i.e.keep the masses divided against themselves and too angry to count past four. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwilhickers. Jefferson sold slaves; an uncomfortable truth concerning someone who wrote "All men are created equal". To state Jefferson let his slaves celebrate Christmas, is an attempt to humanize the institution, or trim off the rough edges of slavery. That is POV. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, not to divulge the fact that Jefferson let his slaves celebrate Christmas is POV. It would be the deliberate suppression of a fact in order to present slavery as practiced by TJ as an unremitting horror. He was no Simon Legree (even though some of his overseers came close). Yopienso (talk) 06:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Now that CMguy is quoting bible verses to make a point, his agenda is clear. It's also clear that he continues to derail topics. The question was if Monticello slave life should have mention in the slavery section. Steeringly Brad (talk) 11:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Since the celebration of Christ's birth was brought into the discussion and the article, I felt the need to quote the Bible. Yes, Monticello slave life needs to be mentioned in the slavery section. The POV in mentioning Christmas, lets the reader falsely assume that the slaves had a day off from being slaves. That is not true. That slaves had a one day out of the year off from forced labor was at the mercy of Thomas Jefferson. The reality is that Jefferson's "family" worked under duress of the whip, their children being taken away to work in a nailry, and were imprisoned on Monticello unable to leave and make something of their own lives. Jefferson only freed two of the hundreds of his slaves during his lifetime. No one is picking on Jefferson. He was not the only Viriginia slave owner. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Whoa--this sounds like WP:IDHT. I can't imagine a reader assuming slaves were not still slaves while celebrating Christmas. This is what the source says:

For African-Americans at Monticello, the holiday season represented a time between - a few days when the winter work halted and mirth became the order of the day. The Christmas season came to represent hours when families reunited through visits and when normal routines were set aside. In 1808, Davy Hern traveled all the way to Washington where his wife Fanny worked at the President’s House to be with her for the holidays. Two days before the Christmas of 1813, Bedford Davy, Bartlet, Nace, and Eve set out for Poplar Forest to visit relatives and friends.

Why do you say "one day"? You seem not to realize that free blacks had little opportunity to "make something of their own lives" at that time, or even until the 1960s. TJ, though flawed as a person and of convoluted thought and action on the matter of slavery, gave his slaves a few days off at Christmas, which they greatly appreciated. I'm not sure if much of the section, as mentioned above, may not be bloat. At the very least, this info should be included in the daughter article.Yopienso (talk) 17:01, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: Yopensio, I am sure the slaves greatly appreciated Christmas time off. This article is on Jefferson and slavery, repectfully, not on whether the slaves enjoyed the Christmas holidays. I do not view Jefferson flawed in anyway, he knew exactly what he was doing. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Cmguy, only a certified whacko would think the article is claiming slaves were freed for the Christmas holidays. They were allowed a few days off from their work routines to visit with family they may have been separated from. Sort of like an employer gives now during the holidays; the only difference is slavery. Like it or not there are a lot of writings that confirm Jefferson treated his slaves well as far as slaveholders went. This does not justify slavery; only that he treated and respected his slaves as human beings. Of course when anyone points out these facts we get accused of bias and justifying slavery. Please stop derailing topics with your extremist and alarmist views. Brad (talk) 17:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: Brad, you justified my statement. "Sort of like an employer gives now during the holidays; the only difference is slavery." You just implied that taking time to celebrate Christmas by a modern day worker, who can quit their job at any time and look for better opportunities, is the same as slaves taking time off for Christmas celebration. That is exactly my point, the Christmas statement is attempting to make Jefferson a modern day business man, therefore, slavery is justified. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

My only "agenda" is to ensure that the article is neutral and contains different historical views on Jefferson and slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I added information and references to balance the article in the Slaves and slavery section. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

After looking at it for a few days I agree that some context on slave life under TJ is appropriate for the section. Brad (talk) 15:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Brad. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Ordinance of 1784

The Ordinance of 1784 passed by Congress does not "outlaw" slavery in the territory by 1800. Thomas Jefferson's draft did make the proposal to prohibit slavery by 1800 in the territory, but this was not adopted by Congress. The language of the Ordinance of 1787 prohibit slavery after 1800 but did not emancipate slaves already in the territory. Southern slave owners did not want to the North to have slaves to compete with Southern agriculture states. The balance of the number of slaves states versus non slave states was not changed by the 1787 Ordinance. [Source:Pohlmann-Whisenhunt (2002), pp. 14-15] Cmguy777 Cmguy777 (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson does deserve credit for the 1784 draft to prohibit slavery in the Northwest territories after 1800. However, he was not a Congressman when Congress passed the Ordinance of 1787. Congress had initially rejected Jefferson's 1784 draft ordinance article that prohibited slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:54, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Lede again

An editor has just made changes in the lede, introducing opinion, that replaced the text about Jefferson always being opposed to slavery. The original statement was/is twice sourced and based on established fact. i.e.Lawyer years, DOI language, attempts to advance emancipation legislation, outlawing slave trade, speeches, letters, etc. The claim that Jefferson's views of slavery "changed" is not based on established items like his lawyer years, the DOI language, etc, it is a speculation based on what TJ apparently didn't do. Of course Finkleman was used as the source for this 'opinion'. The other source, Peterson, 1970, pp.300-301 said nothing to this effect. Couldn't view page 298-299. In any event we have been keeping the lede confined to general and established historical facts, not opinions and speculations. We should continue to do so. We've had issues with the lede before, so please discuss any major changes first.-- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

My source says specifically that his views were "complex and changing". The source is a Jefferson biography by a reputable historian. I can easily find, in Jefferson's own writings, countless examples of him expressing support for slavery. When he speaks favorably of it, how can you say he always opposed it? Almost no one of the founding generation "always opposed" slavery, even the non-slaveowners. His own words contradict your claim, and you are in violation of Wikipedia policy by deleting a sourced claim and changing it to a claim that can be easily disproven.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 01:44, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

My sources says he was opposed to slavery all his life. Also, provide one Jefferson letter where Jefferson supports slavery on moral grounds. And when you say Jefferson's own words "contradict" my claim, which words were you referring to? You forgot to say. Don't quite know how you accomplished your last edit, but this passage is now repeated twice: Jefferson was a tobacco planter and owned hundreds of slaves during his lifetime while the statement that TJ was always opposed to slavery is still in the lede. (!) As for "violating" WP policy, this is also something you forgot to delineate. In any event, you are trying to introduce speculation, not established historical fact, reflected by many RS's. I am reverting mostly because your last edit came out buggy, text wise. Please discuss before you engage in an edit war. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:22, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

And there's your trouble--your sources and my sources. This indicates you are not collaborating but pressing your own agenda. Wikipedians have reliable sources that we as a team draw from, giving due weight. Yopienso (talk) 03:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

When I used the phrase my sources it was italicized to emphasize the same thing you are so quick to make issue with me over. I did not initiate the my sources comment so maybe you should have words with the editor who did, unless of course this conflicts with your "agenda". Your words left to me on my talk page were generally well received. Now you have me wondering. Thanks. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I did not take Quark's use of "my sources" to be combative, whereas yours did seem combative to me. I understood Quark to mean, "the sources from which I drew my assertion[s]." Your response seemed divisive, pitting your sources against his. I may have misunderstood either or both of you. You're both right; TJ was anti- and pro-slavery (at least in some sense) at the same time and for his whole life. That's what we must carefully portray: his personal dilemma and the resulting contradictions in his life. Yopienso (talk) 08:53, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is suppose to be neutral on Jefferson and slavery. There are scholars who state Jefferson was anti-slavery and ones who state Jefferson was not anti-slavery. One scholar says Jefferson's views were complex and changing. There is no need to have any edit conficts over sources. Let's get the POV out of this article. The lede needs to be as neutral as possible by allowing differing opinions on Jefferson and slavery. To push one view over the other is POV. The readers can make up their own minds. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:03, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems we have agreement that the claim that Jefferson was always anti-slavery should be altered. The reason I put in the statement I did (that his views were complex and changed over the course of his life), besides the fact that this is a true statement, was to be as non-POV as possible. Should we change back the lede to say that his views were complex and changing or should we just remove any mention of the topic in the lede?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 06:43, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

1. What's confusing this issue is the varying definition of "slavery" and the difference between TJ's theory and his practice. Sometimes wrt to Jefferson "slavery" means the institution itself and the idea of human bondage. Other times it means the economic system under which he labored. Then again, it refers to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The idea of human bondage troubled him, but he could find no remedy for the economy that required it. He could cut England out of their share.

2. Here we have a Monticello.org page beginning, Thomas Jefferson was a consistent opponent of slavery throughout his life. Yet two paragraphs down it says that [After 1785] Jefferson made no public statements on American slavery nor did he take any significant public action to change the course of his state or his nation." The rest of the article attempts to suss out the contradiction.

3. My take is that our article--and therefore the lede--must show that contradiction. Note that the Monticello.org article shows TJ a. Always philosophically opposed the institution of slavery; b. Did not speak out (or write) against domestic slavery after 1785; c. Did not take active steps to abolish slavery in Virginia or the US. We can say he was always anti-slavery so long as we explain in the same section (preferably in the same paragraph) that he owned and worked slaves for his entire adult life. And somewhere we must include that his slaves sometimes suffered brutalities and sometimes enjoyed happy celebrations. Or leave both out in this article since that info's better in "Jefferson and slavery." What we can't do is mention one without the other.

4. Helpful readings that show the contradiction. Poplar Forest site. Paper by a law professor. Yopienso (talk) 07:46, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : The sources you cite here say nothing about Jefferson changing his views about slavery. Below are some key passages taken from these sources that don't come close to supporting any of the notions you're trying to pass off as historical fact.
Poplar Forest : Jefferson’s views on slavery and blacks are complex. At one time he thought blacks were naturally inferior to other races, but later conceded that servitude may have had an impact on their abilities.
Post : Jefferson was no hypocrite when it came to the slavery question – even his most fervent detractors have to admit as much. He loathed slavery – this “great political and moral evil... also from Post: There is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity - Thomas Jefferson letter, 1814. (after 1785)
Again, Jefferson was always opposed to slavery, and you have just provided another source that clearly supports this fact. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

How can you say that he always opposed slavery and his views didn't change when you just posted a claim that his views were complex and changing? I could change the lede to reflect this and cite the source you just gave!Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:24, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that at times the morality of slavery troubled him, but at other times it didn't. At times he argued that slaves were better off as slaves. The big shift occurred during his time in France, which numerous biographies note shifted his philosophy into a more abstract and ethnocentric set of beliefs (most of his explicitly anti-slavery pronouncements occurred before this point). His statements suggest he became more comfortable with the institution, morally and otherwise, after this point. This is the complexity and contradictory nature you refer to.

So should we go ahead and say in the lede that his views were "complex and changed over the course of his life" or maybe "complex and at times contradictory"?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 14:23, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

The lede needs to give enough information on Jefferson and slavery that the reader can establish their own view on Jefferson and slavery. The talk page is not the place to argue for or against anti-slavery. The readers need to understand their are scholars who disagree that Jefferson was anti-slavery. That needs to be in the lede. Finkelman pointed this out. I believe we need to assume that the reader can make thier own opinion whether Jefferson was anti-slavery. Here is a suggestion: "Traditionally Jefferson has been viewed as a life long opponent of slavery, however, modern scholars have debated the contradiction of Jefferson owning slaves and his statement that "All men are created equal". Cmguy777 (talk) 16:16, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : As I've said, the best way to portray Jefferson and slavery is to present the established historical facts. Presenting slave life at e.g.Monticello will give the reader a clear insight not only into the history, but also will expose much of the speculation for what it is. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

My only problem with that suggestion is that he wasn't a life-long opponent of slavery. He certainly was a supporter of it on economic and political grounds. He even seemed to support it on moral grounds (being in the best interests of the slaves) at times after his assignment in France. I think we need to be purposely vague on the issue in the lede because his views were so complex.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 17:29, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Present a RS that says Jefferson 'supported' slavery on any grounds. There are numerous RS's that say he was always opposed. If you find a source that points out that e.g. he did not free all his slaves, that is all you have. Trying to stretch this into something that says that Jefferson no longer opposed, or that he all of the sudden began supportting slavery is speculation at best, with no concrete evidence to support it. There is much historical evidence (i.e.Lawyers years, DOI, emancipation legislation, abolition of slave trade, letters, etc) that clearly outlines Jefferson as an opponent of slavery all his life. I have pointed this out several times now. What do you have that says TJ was not always an opponent of slavery besides someone's speculation? i.e.On what evidence do you base this idea? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:45, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I can find many RS's from reputable historians that say he supported slavery in different ways at different points of his life (mostly after his time in France). I can also find statements from his own writings where he supports slavery on economic and even moral grounds (he thought slavery was good for the slaves). I can find RS's that are easily validated through primary sources and don't make overly-simplistic claims about his views on this matter. Your source is either so wrong that it can easily be disproven (unlikely) or you are taking your own source out of context because you can't believe that he could have supported slavery in any way (far more likely).Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:20, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Interesting claims. I just used two of the very sources that were presented here (Poplar Forest, David Post) that doesn't support your opinion here. Well, at least you acknowledge that RS's support Jefferson's opposition at different points of his life. (i.e.all his life) Any time Jefferson ever 'supported' slavery was in terms of taking care of slaves whom he believed were better off with shelter, clothing, food, etc. This has also been discussed. You are dragging the page through issues we have long talked about before and IMO are moving way too fast and have made numerous oversights (i.e.historical evidence: Jefferson's actions), here on the talk page also, so no doubt there will be more restorations coming up. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:34, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Your citation above said outright that his views were complex and changing! I see here (as elsewhere) that you are excusing his support of slavery when it is indisputable. You did it before when you redefined support for slavery to mean support for the morality of slavery (admitting he supported it in other ways), and you did it here by apparently excusing his support for slavery on the basis that the slaves are better off as slaves. It sounds like here you just said that his support for slavery was justified and so shouldn't count as support. You keep admitting that he supported it!Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:41, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, this is what the sources says: Jefferson’s views on slavery and blacks are complex. At one time he thought blacks were naturally inferior to other races, but later conceded that servitude may have had an impact on their abilities. This is the second time I'm posting this, so evidently you are either incoherent when you encounter opposing views or are just ignoring any evidence that doesn't support your notion. i.e.Evidently there is no talking to you. If you are going to try and replace historical facts backed by RS's with speculation it will be reverted. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Slavery in lede

From the discussion above it appears that a single editor is claiming that Jefferson always opposed slavery, while everyone else agrees that his views were complex, changing, and at times contradictory, and this view is easily sourced. So can we agree that the lede needs to be changed to reflect this? If most editors here agree, I will make the change.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:28, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

If you can show a long line of historical evidence to support your view you will be in luck. And kindly do not speak for "everyone". So far you have not produced one RS that says Jefferson's view on slavery changed. Again, there is much historical evidence at various points in his life that clearly shows him in opposition to slavery. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you are in complete denial that there are other historians that disagree that Jefferson was anti-slavery. I propose to state that Jefferson has traditionally been viewed as a life long foe of slavery. That puts the historical view of Jefferson and slavery in perspective. Then simply state that some modern scholars disagree with this view and state Jefferson was not anti-slavery. The reader then can understand that modern scholars are reassessing Jefferson and slavery. If there is a reliable source that states Jefferson's views are complex, changing, and contradictory, then the lede needs to reflect this opinion. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

On the contrary, I am keenly aware of the other 'views', so much so that I can tell you they are not based on a long line of established historical fact. Numerous RS's say Jefferson opposed slavery all his life, including a source (Poplar Forest) that Yopienso just brought to the discussion. This is all based on Jefferson's actions. i.e.lawyers years, DOI language, emancipation legislation, slave trade, letters, speeches, etc. Everyone has a 'view', but the question you seem to be avoiding is 'are they based on established historical facts?' Historical facts, sourced, belong in the lede and slavery section. Views and speculations with no established historical evidence to back them belong in the reputation section, if anywhere. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:35, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You keep posting a source that says his views were complex and changing, and then claim they were not complex and changing.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 19:38, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You have a reading problem. Again this is what the sources says. Poplar Forest : Jefferson’s views on slavery and blacks are complex. It says nothing about Jefferson changing his views about slavery. Enough of your half baked conjecture. If you make any changes please make sure they involve historical fact and are backed by a RS that says 'Jefferson no longer opposed slavery', in no uncertain terms. And good luck with your 3rr claim. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:57, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you are not the sole judge on the validity of sources and any attempt to do so is ownership of this article. Finkelman, Appleby, and Ferling are some of the most reliable and authentic authorites on Thomas Jefferson. Yet you deny their works simply because you disagree with them or other historians do not support their views. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Rhetoric. If they are as reliable as you claim, present something from them that is based on historical facts. And if there was any basis to this view you would not have to cling to the same couple of sources all the time. Again, there are plenty of RS's, backed by historical evidence, that clearly outlines Jefferson as always being opposed to slavery. No one says you can't use Finkleman, only that speculations from any source be backed by historical facts, so again, you are just horn blowing, with no established historical facts to carry the ball any further for you. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:06, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you have made it clear that you have no interest in presenting anything other than your own personal view Jefferson, no matter how many sources contradict you.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 20:47, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

No source has been presented that establishes Jefferson as not always being an opponent of slavery. Only criticism about his not freeing slaves, silence, etc. have been presented, once again, as we've discussed this before. Views: I have only added context to the stubby isolated claims regarding Jefferson and slaves, their lives and treatment, etc. Historical facts, (i.e.slave life at Monticello), not views. I have repeatedly asserted that the facts, all by themselves, will give the readers a clear picture of Jefferson's involvement with slaves and slavery. I have repeatedly pointed to a long line of established historical facts (ie.Starting with TJ's lawyer years, DOI, on through...) that establish Jefferson as a constant opponent of slavery, backed by numerous sources. And if you would bother to check your facts, I have made numerous concessions regarding my edits to this page, including recently. Next time you should take a long hard review of edit and discussion history before you start talking. It has already been asserted that Jefferson's view of slavery has been criticized for not freeing slaves, his general silence, etc., so it would seem that this is not your primary concern, only that someone reverted some of your undiscussed major editing. Dissenting views about Jefferson are allowed and exist in several sections already. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

TJ wanted to grow slaves; I call that supporting slavery.

T. Jefferson said: "1 know no error more consuming to an estate than that of stocking farms with men almost exclusively. I consider a woman who brings a child every two years as more profitable than the best man of the farm. What she produces is an addition to capital, while his labors disappear in mere consumption." Ibid., 45-46. T. Jefferson's keen awareness of the profit to be derived from the natural increase of his slaves is also shown in his observation that "our families of negroes double in 25 years which is an increase of the capital invested in them, 4. per cent over and above keeping up the original number." --William Cohen, p. 17, footnote 54.

The very fact that he was a slave owner, albeit a conflicted one, shows he supported the institution by his participation, regardless of his moral compunctions. His refusal to execute Kościuszko's will or accept his money in order to free the slaves shows tacit support.

Furthermore, he bought and sold slaves, had them whipped, occasionally turned a blind eye to abusive overseers, and made them work his plantation. He relied on their forced labor for his very living. That, my friend, supports slavery. It gives it a place and enables and perpetuates it.

See Post on the dichotomy:

"Jefferson’s Contradiction. . . liberty and slavery are the twin poles of the American experience,

and Jefferson embodies them both, in extremis." Yopienso (talk) 23:39, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Yopienso, you have only pointed at Jefferson going along with the system of slavery while he was making efforts to end it. There are numerous actions that show Jefferson specifically opposing slavery. He has also made numerous statements specifically opposing slavery e.g."contrary to the laws of nature", an "abomination", etc, etc. It's like you're accusing someone of 'supporting war' because he had to fight in it. Not enough. You would need something to show where a person actually promoted the war on moral grounds. Where Jefferson is concerned, his main contractors can only speculate about what he didn't do and they have to ignore a lifetime of historical evidence to make it sound half believable. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Unstable editing by Quarkgluonsoup

Quarkgluonsoup, you need to slow down, you just jumped in and made one major change after another with no discussions. This is higly provocative and inconsiderate. The rest of us have been moving at a slow and cautioned pace because of past trouble, blocked pages, etc -- yet you come along in complete disregard for this, have ignored past discussions and are editing like you own the page, one major edit after another. Please slow down and go at the pace the rest of us have been moving at. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:11, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Two new sources

The two new sources that Yopienso introduced, Poplar Forest and David Post, actually support the idea that Jefferson remained opposed to slavery all his life.

• Post : Jefferson was no hypocrite when it came to the slavery question – even his most
  fervent detractors have to admit as much. He loathed slavery – this “great political and moral evil.

• Post: There is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige
  of this moral and political depravity - Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, September 1814.

The Polar Forest cite will be useful, as it presents various Jefferson writings, written at different points in his life, which clearly outline Jefferson's opposition to slavery.

• Poplar Forest : His public and private writings throughout his life make it clear that he held the
  institution of slavery to be an abomination, its practice immoral and fundamentally
  inconsistent with his ideas about the natural rights to “life, liberty ....

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:25, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

You are cherry-picking and willfully ignoring the other side of the story. (See above and the ANI page.) What about this from the same document?

And in his role as “elder statesman” in the years following the end of his Presidential term, perched on his mountaintop at Monticello, he turned aside many pleas to lend his considerable prestige to the growing abolitionist movement, preferring, instead, to maintain an enigmatic silence on the question. Yopienso (talk) 23:48, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"ignoring"?? You are ignoring your own sources, along with a life time of historical evidence, backed by many other RS's. This is getting ridiculous. Yes, it is well established Jefferson was generally silent during his presidency -- however, there is still plenty of evidence that shows him opposed to slavery right up until 1820's as I just showed you above. This is coming from the very sources you brought to the discussion claiming his views of slavery "changed", not supported by your sources and which by itself doesn't say much even if true. "Changed" how?. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Finkleman shows how historians have manipultated events or rhetoric to prove Thomas Jefferson was anti-slavery, because Thomas Jefferson is deemed as being perfect without any faults "almost perfect" with the exception of slavery. Saying that Jefferson was anti-slavery is not proving that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson is deemed as being perfect without any faults" --nonsense. No historian has ever claimed that -- certainly no scholar in the last 75 years.Rjensen (talk) 00:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

"Finkleman shows..."? This should say, 'Finkleman claims...' Apparently Cm' is still trying to hold up Finkleman as some sort of special source who can cancel out years of historical evidence and numerous other RS's. Unbelievable. Cm' also fails to say which events were "manipulated". So I suppose we can all assume that Jefferson's lawyers years were all manipulated, his days drafting the DOI were all just one big scheme, his attempts at emancipation were all one big manipulated affair, his outlawing of the slave trade, meaningless, all a manipulated show of events, never mind all his writings and speeches. Bear in mind, Finkleman exposed his complete lack of objectivity when he said "Jefferson hated the negro", which flies in the face of so much historical evidence to the contrary. I would think that any other speculations coming from this individual should be considered in this light. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:51, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is Finkelman's statement, "Thomas Jefferson is certainly the most popular saint of American civil religion...The virtual deification of Jefferson is engrained in the general public, sustained by popular biographers and scholars, supported by the mass media, and bolstered by recent Presidents...Both conservatives and liberals look to Jefferson as an icon and a role model...Jefferson's image would be almost perfect, were it not for slavery." Thomas Jefferson and Antislavery; The Myth Goes On

No one here disputes the argument that "Jefferson's image would be almost perfect, were it not for slavery." I don't think Finkelman has criticized TJ on any other issue. Let me add that "almost perfect" is much too strong for me. I would agree with a statement like this: "Jefferson's image would be very high indeed, were it not for his ownership of slaves." Lots of historians (like Peterson) feel Jefferson blundered badly on some major issues, such as the embargo, the gunships, and preparation for war with Britain. Personally I would add his attacks on judges and the courts. Rjensen (talk) 05:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes I agree completely. I think Jefferson deserves some criticism on the issue of slavery, since he was more accepting of it than most of his day, and even more on his view of blacks, which was one of an unusually strong scientific racism. But these are minor compared to many other actions he took during his career, of which you list a few. It is these that should earn him far more criticism than slavery, yet people are so focused on slavery that they miss this. Finkelman seems to miss this entirely, even claiming that Jefferson helped start the revolution, which he did not. The article reflects this to some extent though needs to do a better job.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 06:17, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

It is encouraging to hear you say these things Q'. Jefferson was born into slavery, opposed it at the age of six. In his adult life, as time when on he realized he was beating a dead horse. He tried to get the ball rolling with the original DOI, but his anti-slavery language was gutted. His attempts at emancipation were also stonewalled. He managed to outlaw the slave trade, only because it did not outlaw domestic slavery. At life's end he left his slaves to be sold with his estate, no doubt (my speculation) because his first allegiance was to his family, not wanting to leave them with his debts. If we can get past all the stigma piled onto slavery it shouldn't be difficult to see these things. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:32, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

My concern for this article had to do with what I perceived was a push for Jefferson as a constant foe of slavery while disregarding other scholars who state that Jefferson was not anti-slavery. Jefferson's embargo clearly led up to tensions between Britain and the U.S., there was corruption in the Postal Service, and Jefferson was historically criticized for his protection of General Wilkinson, involved in the Spanish Conspiracy. As has been mentioned before, the article should not condemn Jefferson for being a slave owner. The scholars viewpoint that Jefferson was not anti-slavery needs to be in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

The degree to which Jefferson can be criticized for slavery is limited, and is mostly due to his strong support for the institution (usually strong by the standards of his day) and his unusually strong (by the standards of his day) racism. Far more criticism can be made against him for far more than slavery. The article shouldn't criticize him much for slavery, but the question of weather he supported the institution isn't a question of values or weather he can be excused but simple historic fact, and of that here is no question what of his support.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 03:38, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

You wrote:

". . .he was more accepting of it than most of his day, and even more on his view of blacks, which was one of an unusually strong scientific racism."

"strong support for the institution (usually [sic Did you mean unusually?] strong by the standards of his day) and his unusually strong (by the standards of his day) racism."

I can't believe TJ was more accepting of slavery that other southerners or that he was more racist. Do you have sources for that? Yopienso (talk) 03:50, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

He owned far more slaves than most slaveowners, partly due to his unusually extravagant lifestyle (which was also why he didn't free any at his death; even the Hemmings children weren't freed but "allowed" to escape and listed as runaways). Even the location of Monticello was an act of unusual cruelty to his slaves, as it was on the top of a hill so construction and maintenance was unusually laborious compared to most other plantations. The few times when he did actually criticize the institution, it was due to the impact of the institution on whites, not any moral problem or concern for slaves. He never even signed on to any emancipation efforts (his rival Alexander Hamilton was a leading figure in the successful effort to end slavery in NY). Most of his anti-slavery actions and writings came before he was radicalized in France. Actually one problem here is that people are assuming that certain views he may have had at one point were held throughout his life, when this certainly isn't true.

As for race, he was an adherent of scientific racism, which makes his racism unusually cold and strong compared to contemporaries. Usually slavery supporters justified it on economic and cultural grounds without trying to justify it on moral grounds or address the question of the well being of the slaves. Jefferson did, which was highly unusual, and he did it with claiming that blacks were so inferior that they were better off as slaves. I noticed many of his writings on blacks have been removed from the article, such as his comparison of blacks to orangutans. These arguments weren't made often at the time by others. If you want to see a slaveowner who was arguably anti-slavery, look a Mason, who went on a tirade at the constitutional convention on the immorality of it and the need to abolish it in the constitution. Yes I have sources for all of this.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 04:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

These arguments do not show TJ to be less liberal on slavery or more racist than other Virginia elite. Holding more slaves certainly doesn't mean he was more accepting of slavery. The suggestion that building on a hilltop was cruelty is ludicrous. Since you have sources that show he was "worse" (a shorthand word) than most, please divulge them. Some time ago we discusses Ira Berlin's slave societies. Virginia planters formed one, and it was not a society of which TJ was the only member. Yopienso (talk) 15:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Yopienso is correct. First we must remember there are scientific differences in race. Jefferson had his views about racial differences, based on simple observation and science, but this by itself does not establish the idea that his feelings were "unusually cold and strong", esp when there is very much evidence to the contrary. Monticello.org, whom I've criticized for their handling of the Hemings issue, offers a wealth of information about Jefferson, slaves and plantation life. There you can see Jefferson's "unusually cold and strong" feelings in action. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:49, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Historical evidence v views

Is there an actual author that goes beyond criticism for, e.g.Jefferson's silence, and actually says that Jefferson (was always/became) pro slavery? If that's the case it would be interesting to see how they can write off a life time of evidence and so (very) many RS's -- and it would be twice as interesting to know on what evidence they are basing this assertion. If it's just a 'view' based on something Jefferson didn't do this is speculation and belongs in the 'Reputation section, regardless if it's Finkleman or 'the Pope' making the claim. There are more than 'views' to consider. Historical evidence is what establishes facts. For Jefferson's views and dealings with slavery there is almost a life time of it. An encyclopedia is supposed to presents facts first and foremost. Any views and speculations about what someone 'should have done' are given mention but are not stated as established facts. A good example: Finkleman said "Jefferson hated the negro". If there were lots of evidence to this effect we could say this, but since it is a speculation with no concrete evidence to support it, it is only a view. We shouldn't be trying to treat 'views and speculations' like they were facts. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:52, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, from what I understand, Finkelman was taking the Jefferson anti-slavery arguements and gave evidence that these arguements were either misleading, false, or in error in order to create a myth that Jefferson was anti-slavery. I would say selling slaves, working slave children, and having the slaves whipped, is evidence Jefferson was pro-slavery. Jefferson himself viewed the increase of slaves as "capital" for his Monticello estate. The reader needs to be given enough information to decide if Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

It's an issue of personal life versus his political views. He wanted to change society in the future by outlawing the slave trade and ending slavery's expansion in the territories. That made him a leading anti-slavery advocate among the main political figures of the day--it's hard to think of an American of his day who was more active in limiting slavery. That was a future vision--for the moment he lived inside the system. Rjensen (talk) 22:07, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: If I am reading your statement correctly Rjensen then Thomas Jefferson in his personal life could have been proslavery, but then in his public life he was anti-slavery. Let's look at his public life. Ferling states that the 1782 Virginia Manumission law passed the legislature because Thomas Jefferson was not in the legislature at that time. While Secretary of State Jefferson and President Washington funded the slave owners in Haiti, not the slaves in rebellion. While Jefferson was President he did not recognize Haiti as an independent state. Then there is the Louisianna purchase that allowed the spread of slavery throughout the entire region. There was no anti-slavery provision by Jefferson attached to the sale of the immense purchase. Banning the slave trade in 1807 was pro slavery in terms of domestic policy since this increased the value of Jefferson's slaves. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Well no. Jefferson was more outspoken against slavery than any president before Lincoln (even JQ Adams) or any other major politician of his day, as in his message to Congress. Foner notes that Lincoln changed over from Clay to Jefferson as he became an enemy of slave expansion in the 1850s. The Southerners had rejected Jefferson as their hero for the same reason. The closing of the slave trade was a top issue for antislavery forces around the world circa 1807 and Jefferson took the lead and succeeded in the US. To call the antislavery leaders hypocrites and dishonest and self-interested was the standard technique of the proslavery elements in those days, and I'm surprised to see the same tactic used today. Rjensen (talk) 05:16, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: Rjensen. No one is denying that Jefferson in his rhetoric was anti-slavery. I believe we can agree on that one. There is no place in this article that states "antislavery leaders" were hypocrites, dishonest, or self interested. I personally do not believe "self-interest" is necessarily a bad thing since that is what drives our capitalist system of supply and demand, speaking only in terms of material products, not slavery. I have noticed you did not address any of the issues I brought up, especially concerning the Louisiana Purchase that expanded slavery. As far as I know there are no proslavery forces in the Wikipedia editors, including myself. What I disagree is being forcefully endoctrinated into the opinion that Jefferson was anti-slavery. You can have your own opinion on Jefferson, but to suggest Finkelman, Ferling, or Appleby as being pro-slavery historians, as far as I know, is not supported in any of their writings. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:15, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: Banning the slave trade was both anti-slavery and pro-slavery. Banning the slave trade was anti-slavery, while the value of domestic slaves increasing was pro-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillickers wrote: "If that's the case it would be interesting to see how they can write off a life time of evidence and so (very) many RS's. . ." Indeed. How can you write off a life time of supporting slavery by:

• Buying slaves
• Forcing slaves to work his plantations
• Posting wanted ads for runaway slaves (Wonder why they ran away from Jefferson's happy plantation?)
• Writing about the usefulness of female slaves who "bring a child every two years"; i.e.--breeding slaves for his own use and/or for sale
• Selling slaves

By being a life-long slaveowner, TJ was supporting slavery. Did you read my post above at 23:39, 20 July 2012 under "Slavery in the lede"?

You are again seizing upon words; you want a RS that says, "TJ was pro-slavery" or "TJ extolled the virtues of slavery" or "TJ worked hard to entrench slavery ever further." The University of Maryland Baltimore County, developing a middle school history program in conjunction with the U.S. Dept. of Education, writes (emphasis added): [Look under the green hat below.]

Yopienso : Yes, Jefferson bought and sold salves. This doesn't mean he didn't oppose slavery on moral and political grounds, as much of the historical evidence clearly reveals to us. This is not a two-dimensional issue. You're saying because he bought/sold slaves he therefore did not oppose slavery. Period. Oh yes, there was that wanted poster. That really undermines Jefferson's life time of efforts trying to abolish slavery. And anyone who's looked into how Jefferson managed his slaves and ran the plantation I believe will see a more clear picture than the one you are trying to present with the usual out of context claims. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:09, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I never said didn't oppose slavery. I've consistently said, as the historical records show, that he both opposed and supported slavery. This is the contradiction and the paradox that makes the TJ/slavery issue so very complex. What we must do is show the contradiction, not try to say he either opposed or supported slavery. Yopienso (talk) 21:23, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Excerpt from UMBC history program including TJ's support of slavery

While Jefferson contributed much to our American historical culture, he often comes under criticism for his support of and participation in the enslavement of African Americans. Jefferson, who called the institution of slavery an abominable crime," was a slaveholder for all of his adult life. Successful in outlawing the international slave trade to Virginia, he was disappointed by the failure of his early efforts to end or restrict slavery, and came to believe that a practicable solution to the problem could not be found in his lifetime. He continued, however, to advocate privately his own emancipation plan, which included a provision for resettling slaves outside the United States. While considering slavery a moral travesty, hideous evil, and clearly at odds with his values of the American Revolution and republican virtue, Jefferson owned several hundred slaves at his home at Monticello and surrounding agricultural farms and businesses. In much of his correspondence to friends and business associates, Jefferson laments the immoral institution of slavery and yet describes how it must continue. Jefferson and many of his peers were afraid that the abolition of slavery would cause violence throughout the South and racial prejudice in the North. They were concerned that agriculture on large farms, long dependent on slave labor, would collapse without a subjugated labor force. While Jefferson defended abolition in the Northwest Territories, he allowed it [sic; apparently referring to slavery] to expand in the Louisiana Territory. As a revolutionary, he attacked slavery. As an elected politician of a divided nation, he defended it. Jefferson's relationship with slavery is certainly riddled with contradiction, both in words and deeds. His words expressed a hatred and disdain for an institution that ran contradictory to the ideals of democracy and human rights; while defending racial inferiority, political indifference, and economic security. His deeds reflected a dedication to righteousness, but only when they were socially popular or relevant to personal or political security. Many questions remain unanswered. Why did Jefferson change his views over time and when his responsibilities to the nation were altered? How did he feel about the African-American and his capabilities, as well as his rights? After studying the many documents presented here, one question might be answered: "Where Did Thomas Jefferson Stand on the Issue of Slavery?" Yopienso (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC) You may have to click on a tab, "Topic Background," on that page. Or, click here for a printer-friendly version. Yopienso (talk) 23:26, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Restored reverts

On advice I have just reversed two major reverts to Quarkgluonsoup edits to two sections. Quarkgluonsoup, please move at a pace other editors can deal with. It is not fair for you to come in and make dozens of major changes where any one editor can only make 3 reverts. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:57, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps "fair" isn't the best word to use here. If somebody's large body of edits is truly objectionable, then more than one editor will jump in to set things straight. What concerns me much more is Quarkgluonsoup's habit of not giving edit summaries. This, combined with the large number of edits at a single time, makes it very difficult for other editors to see what has been changed.--Other Choices (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Amen to that. Yopienso (talk) 03:40, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the diffs it's hard to determine just what was removed or edited. I can say that the word count on the article dropped at least 1000 words which is a good thing. Quarkie needs to learn some etiquette when dealing with controversial articles. Brad (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Can we just make the slavery changes already?

While I don't really care about the slavery dispute, I don't think Gwillickers is going to be convinced of anything. Most editors here agree he was not anti-slavery all his life, so the changes to that effect should be made, to both the lede and the body. Gwillickers is outnumbered and thus won't be able to maintain his view in the article. If he reverts, he can be reported for edit warring again and his reversion can be undone.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 03:33, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Ermm, you care enough about it to start a section and urge action. Please read just above here about etiquette. I'm not OK with saying Gwillickers is outnumbered and then implying that we can just gang up and pounce on him.

About the changes, yes, I think there's a consensus that TJ had conflicted views on slavery. Written and sourced properly, they will not be reverted. Yopienso (talk) 03:43, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Good, this should be done then. The slavery section right now is in really bad shape. I put a POV tag on the section, as its pro-Jefferson and anti-fact bias is quite explicit.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 03:56, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

You didn't make an edit summary, though. Please adopt this useful and cooperative habit. Your failure to do so creates difficulties for your fellow editors. Yopienso (talk) 04:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I apologize. I will start doing that.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 04:49, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate Quarkluonsoup for interest in the Thomas Jefferson article. Since there is disagreement among historians I believe both pro and anti sides need to be addressed in terms of Jefferson and slavery. Gwilhickers wants to choose anti-slavery while Quarkluonsoup wants pro-slavery. Both sides need to be in the article and the reader is the ultimate judge in terms of Jefferson and slavery. Wikipedia is not about endoctrinating the reader to accept this or that point of view. Traditionally Jefferson has been viewed as anti-slavery, but certain modern scholars view that Jefferson was not anti-slavery. That really is all that needs to be said. There is no DNA test, as in the Sally Hemings and Jefferson controversy, that can prove Jefferson was pro or anti slavery. Gwillhickers apparently has allowed anti-slavery sentiment into the article. All I believe is that the reader needs some historical "breathing space" to make their decision whether Jefferson was pro or anti slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I must admit that I am surprised that people are claiming that historians and biographers have argued that he was anti-slavery. I have read Peterson's biography and most of Wood's books and I never came to the conclusion that either thought he was anti-slavery, though both argue (correctly I think) that he should be judged by the standards of his day, not ours. The common view, from what I have read, is that he shouldn't be judged negatively because of slavery (a question of values), not that he was anti-slavery (a question of historical fact). I have read a lot on Jefferson and this is the first time I have heard claims that he is commonly held by historians to be anti-slavery. Most of the time the contradiction people focus on isn't being anti-slavery and owning slaves, but writing the declaration of independence and supposedly being a great champion of liberty while owning slaves. I think the view of editors here is highly skewed on the question of what historians have commonly think, as most modern historians certainly don't think he was anti-slavery.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 05:52, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It appears part of the problem is what is meant by 'anti slavery.' He expressed moral opposition to it as an institution and some political routes for ending it. Yet, he practiced it, while at times expressing some bewilderment and frustration, as how to end it. Because of his racial theories, his main expressed route was deportation. Africans could not really be part of the "United States" but he still didn't end his own involvement and deport them, as it was an infeasible idea (although attractive to many early opponents of the institution of slavery in the United States) and based on speculative theory. The peculiar institution (as practiced) was about race, in the United Sates (as well as economics). In sum, his enlightenment ideals cause him to oppose, his racial ideas caused him to continue the institution and his personal involvement in it (along with his financial investment). Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Continuity problems

I'm not sure where to put this since the conversation has spread all over. But the section as it stands atm needs editing for continuity. It bounces around with entries that aren't quite relevant to where they're placed. Subject wise I picture something like:

• The situation and happenings with TJ's slaves. How they were treated, sold and what they generally did for labor assignments and which were freed in his lifetime then in his will.
• TJ's personal thoughts on the institution of slavery
• TJ's attempts to end the practice via legislation and private words/actions
• Some historical analysis.

Just some initial thoughts anyway. Brad (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Brad. I started working on something in my sandbox but my break from real life responsibilities is drawing to a close. (Plus, it's just not worth the hassle from other editors.) I was thinking:

• Begin by setting the context of Virginia's slave society and the conflict between TJ's daily realities and his soaring Enlightenment ideals. Something like, "As a member of the planter elite in Virginia's slave society, Jefferson relied on slavery for his livelihood. This fact conflicted with his belief in freedom, causing lifelong contradictions between his words and actions in regards to slavery."
• Then briefly describe how his slaves fared, including his wishes, deeds, and what his overseers did.
• Brief historical analysis.

A key point is that this section should be a brief summary that points to the daughter article. Yopienso (talk) 21:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

YES. Please, it is a mess currently. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, I've just made a good-faith effort. I know the last paragraph is too brief and uncited. There may well be other problems, but it's a start. I was aiming for conciseness, leaving details for the daughter article. This is all about collaboration, so I expect changes, but beg for no wholesale revert. Yopienso (talk) 03:49, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. It's a large improvement over the previous version. There are some picky things that need tidying which I'll look into eventually. Brad (talk) 04:17, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

TJ 1820 plan to free all newborn slaves

In 1820 Jefferson worked with the governor of Virginia (his son in law) on a plan to free all the newborn slaves in Virginia and send them to Haiti as free people. At this point Haiti was welcoming freed blacks emigrating from the US -- over 13,000 American free blacks did emigrate there, so there was a core element for TJ's colony. Jefferson considered compulsory manumission and resettlement of newborn slaves to Haiti to be a practical solution to how to abolish slavery in Virginia. TJ wrote to U. S. minister to France Albert Gallatin: "My proposition would be that the holders should give up all born after a certain day, past, present, or to come, that these should be placed under the guardianship of the state, and sent at a proper age to S. Domingo [ie Haiti]. There they are willing to receive them, & the shortness of the passage brings the deportation within the possible means of [Virginia state] taxation aided by charitable contributions." The governor agreed with TJ and called on the legislature to endorse the plan but it refused. We see TJ devising an actual plan to free slaves. See Arthur Scherr, "Light at the End of the Road: Thomas Jefferson's Endorsement of Free Haiti in His Final Years," Journal of Haitian Studies Volume: 15. Issue: 1/2. 2009. pp 203+ online version; for more email rjensen@uic.edu Rjensen (talk) 05:51, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Your link isn't allowing anyone without a subscription to read the article. What is the context of this? What exactly did he do to "work" on this issue? Why would this mean he was anti-slavery, since his main problem with the institution is widely known to be the risk of slave revolt and the effect it was having on whites? Really, I think part of the problem here is that we are working with different definitions of "anti-slavery". It is clear he feared slavery due to the risk of slave uprisings (an almost universal fear in VA through he Civil War), and as much as your link is correct and in context, it provides yet another piece of evidence for this view of his. Notice here he doesn't want to simply free them, but rather to get them out of the country entirely. It is fine if we mention this particular context of his slavery views (his fear of uprisings) but the article currently writes up whatever opposition he had to slavery to compassion towards blacks and a view that is was morally wrong, which is what we today think of it but Jefferson certainly did not. We should differentiate this distinction in the article.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 06:03, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

yes TJ was afraid of a slave revolt. I think that annoys his critics today who seem to celebrate slave revolts despite their huge death tolls. Yes he did have a concrete proposal in 1820 to abolish slavery in Virginia. Yes he told the nation as president that the slave trade was a violation of human rights (he said a law was needed to "withdraw the citizens of the United States from all further participation in those violations of human rights … which the morality, the reputation, and the best of our country have long been eager to proscribe." He got the law and criminalized the international slave trade.) I think the article in question brings up lots of new facts -- and I would be happy to help anyone read it if they email me at rjensen@uic.edu. Rjensen (talk) 06:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Again good points by both of you. I have access to the article and it does raise another wrinkle, namely the playing out of his deportation solution for gradual emancipation. Do you have a suggested edit? And does this belong here or in the daughter article?Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

None of his critics think slave revolts were good. I think, as is common with people who really want to see Jefferson in a certain positive way, Rjensen is reading his own hopes into Jefferson's actions. People want to believe that any actions or words Jefferson did against slavery was due to moral opposition and seeing it the way we see it, making him a visionary and champion of human liberty. This simply warps the historical record, and Jefferson himself, beyond the actual facts and fits them into the image people want to believe of Jefferson. He didn't care about the slaves, and had an unusually strong sense of racism. He really wasn't even that concerned of slave revolts (much like us and global warming, we know it might one day lead to disaster and like talking about it but it never seems urgent enough to cause action). This is another case of cherry picking Jefferson to construct an image people want to believe of him.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 14:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I think RJ is trying to bring the disparate sources into a cohesive whole picture like you are. Don't we have to present the positive and the negative facts? For example, one thing I just tried to correct in the article, is that some of the discussion on this page elides Virginia and the United States. Virginia was 'his country' and slavery was (except the shared issues of the international trade and territorial expansion) a state issue, especially for a state guy like Jefferson (as RJ's source exemplifies). Details like these bring the whole picture (of this complex subject with contradictory currents) into better focus. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC) Also, note that although TJ supported this law, he does not appear to have done it for his slaves -- this goes along with other evidence that Jefferson was a often a theoretical opponent and often an in-practice supporter (hence his in-practice rationalizations). Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Alanscottwalker. Having a one sided view with Jefferson and slavery is misleading for the reader. I do not believe in the forced endoctrination that Jefferson was anti-slavery. The alternative in my opinion is to state that Jefferson is "traditionally" viewed as anti-slavery and that certain modern scholars disagree. If everything is true that Jefferson actually sponsored an initiative to free slave children, I would call that anti-slavery. However, that does not explain Jefferson's silence on domestic slavery as President, his boycott of Haiti, his continued slave ownership while President, and the Louisiana Purchase that spread slavery, or that the value of his slaves increased after signing the ban on the slave trade. As I have stated many times before, let the reader decide if Jefferson was anti-slavery. Wikipedia needs to be neutral, since their is disagreement among scholars. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:14, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Why did Jefferson have to use Albert Gallatin to suggest this initiative to the legislature? Did the legislature know that Jefferson was behind this initiative? Gallatin was actually Swiss born, not from Virginia. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Louisiana Purchase

Regarding the Purchase as a means intended to spread slavery: well no. We know Jefferson's plans in terms of his instructions to his diplomats. TJ above all wanted free navigation of the Mississippi, and perhaps purchase of New Orleans as a suitable port. No one dreamed that Napoleon would offer the whole territory. I believe historians are unanimous in applauding the purchase. Note that anti-slavery northerners like JQ Adams supported it. As for the new lands the compromise of 1820 split it in half with slavery outlawed in the northern half. Rjensen (talk) 06:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson strongly opposed the Missouri Compromise saying that this would be the "death knell of the Union". No one is denying that the Louisiana Purchase was a monetarily valuable land purchase, however, the Indian tribes had no say in the negotiations and all their lands were succeeded to United States authority without any compensation. I am not sure how JQ Adams, an anti-slavery northerner, support of the Lousiana Purchase makes the purchase anti-slavery. Slavery did spread throughout the region and Louisiana was one of the most resistant states during Reconstruction. Why didn't Jefferson by the purchase agreement outlaw slavery in the Louisiana Territory? Cmguy777 (talk) 07:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

there was no "purchase agreement" There was a treaty that had to be ratified by 2/3 of the Senate or Louisiana was lost. Historians are pretty near unanimous that ratification was a very good idea. As for the Indians, their personal behavior included endless warfare, genocide, slavery and torture, so they are not exactly model citizens. Rjensen (talk) 09:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Good points. The thing about the spread of slavery, is TJ, made the rather remarkable argument that its spread would lead to its diminution, because there would be more whites (that were not involved) and fewer slaves by comparison to them. But I wish all editors would REALLY focus on summary in this article because that's the purpose of this section of the article, and having another detailed article on Thomas Jefferson and slavery and a further info article on Louisiana purchase Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:28, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Rjensen, aside from the Indian hostility debate, President Jefferson never advocated that slavery be abolished in the territory and he was strongly against the Missouri Compromise of 1820. Article II of the Constitution gives the President the primary power to negotiate treaties. Jefferson was the primary negotiator of the Louisiana Purchase. Jefferson had every opportunity to speak out against domestic slavery and their was silence. I believe JQ Adams was anti-slavery as U.S. Congressman after the Louisiana purchase. The conservative whites in Louisiana were not exactly "model citizens" in their violence and intimidation tactics toward blacks and white Republicans during Reconstruction. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Monroe negotiated the Louisiana treaty with France not Jefferson or Madison. (transatlantic messages took 2 months each way in those days). It was a land sale. No slaves were bought or sold (slaves already there they belonged to private owners or to Indian tribes and their status did not change.) What the US did about slavery after it purchased Louisiana had no role in the treaty with France and of course was not there--how could it be otherwise? Congress of course ratified treaties and makes the laws, not the president, a Constitutional point TJ knew all about. Rjensen (talk) 23:47, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert:Sec. Monroe or President Jefferson did not desire to have slavery on the agenda. I would call this a land and people sale. Once the land is bought up the people are under the control of the U.S. Congress. I would say Congress ratifies treaties submitted by the President of the United States under Article II of the Constitution. That Jefferson did not make slavery an issue in the Louisiana Purchase would support that he was silent on speaking out against domestic slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:22, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Cm', Re:Missouri Compromise, it's generally well known (or should be) why Jefferson felt the way he did about the M.C.

• By 1820, during the political crisis that resulted in the Missouri Compromise, Jefferson had come to believe that the spread of slavery into the west&—its "diffusion"&—would prove beneficial to the slaves and hasten the end of the institution.
• He feared it {the 'Compromise) could threaten the union and lead to civil war. (insert mine)

Anyone who looks into this history should see that Jefferson's regard for the M.C. is not anything that can be construed as pro-slavery. Esp when there is much historical evidence that corroborates TJ's position on slavery overall. We have gone over all of this before. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: OK. Gwillhickers then you admit that Jefferson did desire to spread slavery into the Louisiana Territory. Slavery did spread into the territory and surprise slavery was not extinguish as an institution, rather became more firmly entrenched. So if laws against stealing are repealed, then people will of course stop stealing. How does that make sense? Cmguy777 (talk) 02:22, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Attention all editors! I've been ragging on QuarkGS to write edit summaries. Things were slow enough here before he arrived I hadn't noticed other editors regularly omit edit summaries. Now, in going to the article history, it's impossible to tell what's been added. Please, everyone, write summaries for your edits. Thanks. Yopienso (talk) 07:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree that more definitive summary is needed from some editors, esp when they are removing lots of sourced information. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

You just made 19 edits to this page in 16 minutes, not a single one of which has an edit summary. Yopienso (talk) 02:15, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Financial situation and slavery

I believe one unrated view that has been overlooked concerning Jefferson and slavery was Jefferson's financial situation. For all practical purposes Jefferson was broke. I believe anyone who has been in finacial dire straights will hold on to anything that has value. I don't know if their are any sources that state this, however, his finacial situation would make Jefferson extremely reluctant to free his slaves, thus not anti-slavery. Who would Jefferson be if he did not have his slaves to his support excessive spending habits? Jefferson's financial situation could be expanded in the slaves and slavery section. This might give better understanding, not an excuse, why Jefferson for the most part did not free his slaves. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

This topic is too complicated to sum up in the slavery section without bloating the section. I have read sources that claim TJ couldn't free his slaves because he was in such debt at the end of his life. Another factor is his concern over providing his daughter Martha and grandchildren security after his death since her marriage to TMR was on rocky ground and there was no income or shelter for her other than Monticello. His slaves could not possibly be considered as supporting his lavish lifestyle. In his retirement years the prices for wheat, tobacco and land were all depressed making any effort expended by his slaves on growing crops a losing operation and TJ went further in debt because the cost of feeding, clothing and sheltering his slaves remained the same even though Monticello was not turning a profit. The War of 1812 further damaged TJ's finances as exports to Britain were suspended during the 1812-1815 period. Periods of drought and then deluges of rain wiped out crops at Poplar Forest and Monticello. The dam that provided power to his gristmill, a source of income, broke and had to be rebuilt at great cost. There's more but I digress. Brad (talk) 21:44, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are many factors to consider. His selling of slaves could be wrapped up with a couple of summary sentences.

• During the final years of Jefferson's life the price for tobacco and other crops fell because of war, drought and other factors, making it impractical to continue paying the living costs of slaves at Monticello. Consequently Jefferson was compelled to sell off his slaves to settle debts and to help provide security for various family members.

Will look into sources. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

No Gwill, what you suggest is also wrong in part. See what I wrote below here. Brad (talk) 00:58, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson did not have to pay his slaves, so in that sense profit did not matter. My point is that Jefferson was 130 slaves in debt after he died, whatever that cost is. His slaves apparently were the only assets he maintained and thus was reluctant to free them. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:24, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Cm' please read what you are responding to. No one said that Jefferson had to "pay his slaves". They were sold for the reasons clearly outlined above. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:11, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

CMguy, you continually believe that slavery was the cause of everything wrong in TJ's life. Jefferson was not "130 slaves in debt" after his death. The 130 slaves were part of his entire estate including Monticello and all property and land holdings. TJ was $100,000 in debt when he died which was an immense sum for the time. TJ did not and could not have sold his slaves to pay his debts after his death...because he was dead! The entirety of his estate was left to his daughter Martha but since women of the era did not have the rights to property an executor (male) was appointed to oversee the estate for her and IIRC it was his grandson TJRandolph. As time passed it was decided to first sell off the 130 slaves and suspend the plantation operation to help pay off some of the debt. It was TJR and Martha who made this decision. But the sale of slaves at depressed prices barely put a dent in the debt. Monticello itself sold for the dismal sum of about $8,000 a few years later. TJR assumed all the debts of TJ's estate after Martha's death and it took him decades to pay it off.

You seem to believe that the sale of slaves solved all of the debt which is entirely wrong. You have a great inability to see past slavery and realize that there were dozens of reasons why TJ didn't free his slaves in his will and the scenario surrounding their eventual sale. Of all of the reading I've done on TJ so far I've concentrated on his retirement years of which you seem to have little knowledge of and continue to beat the slavery drum. You don't show any interest in TJ other than the slavery issue. Brad (talk) 00:41, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Brad. I do have interest in Jefferson as a person and the slavery issue is a source of contention among historians. Slavery affected Jefferson's life from his birth to his death and I believe understandably the institution is worth studying. I never stated that slavery was the "cause of everything that was wrong with Jefferson". If this will help I can give my personal views on Thomas Jefferson. First of all there is nothing we can do to change the past. Thomas Jefferson controlled his own world while historians can only control his legacy reputation. Secondly, I do not judge Jefferson for owning slaves. He did not start slavery and he was not the last slave owner to live. Third, I believe that there needs to be an open forum for discussing Thomas Jefferson and slavery. I don't believe that historians, teachers, or Wikipedia editors should bully their opinion that Jefferson was anti-slavery on the readers or other Wikipedia editors or castigate other scholars who believe Jefferson was not anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:36, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson the abolitionist

Yopienso, the source you just provided above claims Jefferson was an abolitionist.

Thomas Jefferson has achieved fame as a founding father of the United States. He was an accomplished Revolutionary author, foreign diplomat, secretary of state, vice-president, president, inventor, educator, planter, slave owner and abolitionist (bold added)

This will be the second time you have made a claim and provided a source that says the opposite. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The source confirms exactly what I claim: TJ was a slave owner AND abolitionist. Get it? He was both! This is not either/or, it's BOTH.

Please STOP this tiresome arguing. Read what I write. Read the sources. Stop picking and choosing some words while ignoring others. Please do not engage in disruptive editing. Thanks. Yopienso (talk) 21:41, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Fine. Glad to hear you say this. There are those who maintain that Jefferson could not be an abolitionist simply because he was a slave owner. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:01, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

The source is from a middle school essay. That is not a legitimate source for this article. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a resource for middle school teachers developed by the University of Maryland Baltimore County. A Guided Approach to Historical Inquiry in the K-12 Classroom was developed through a partnership between the UMBC Center for History Education (CHE) and Maryland school systems, with support from the United States Department of Education's Teaching American History grant program. Click on the "Topic Background" tab here. But I was not suggesting this be used as a citation in the article, anyway; innumerable sources already cited show TJ was both for and against slavery. Yopienso (talk) 22:54, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

He was "for slavery" only inasmuch as he felt it was necessary for Africans in 18/19th century Virginia, et al in terms of their survival and practical placement. Jefferson was never for slavery on moral and political grounds, that is absolutely clear with many RS's that outline his activities to this end. His 'contradictions' (i.e.selling of slaves to settle estate) are only apparent and are easily explained in the light of all the historical evidence. There is no RS that says Jefferson was for slavery on moral and political grounds. At best, all they do is criticize him and speculate about what he didn't do, or should have done. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:06, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

And perhaps that's exactly what we should say in this situation -- instead of saying anything at all in wikipedia's voice, summarize the sources with a sentence like: "Many scholars acknowledge Jefferson's opposition in principle to slavery while criticizing him for not doing more to live up to his convictions."--Other Choices (talk) 01:59, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

He also supported slavery because slavery supported him. In short, he had a long-time massive conflict of interest on this topic. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:56, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Exactly right, Other Choices and Aswalker. TJ wasn't "for" slavery on moral or political grounds, but on practical and pragmatic grounds. Gwillickers idea that TJ was "for" slavery only for the slaves' sakes is woefully skewed. Yes, he was paternalistic, but he needed them for his very survival. Yopienso (talk) 02:31, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Not quite "exactly". Jefferson was always opposed on a higher level and in practice he made numerous concessions to allow slaves to live like people even though they were "slaves". e.g.Keeping families together, Sundays off, Christmas, allowing them to raise their own chickens, etc. This is why I will be restoring much of the slaves activities that was recently removed from the section. ASW, yes, there was a "massive conflict of interest" but he never waiver on principle and made many efforts to assert it. Yopienso, your version is an acceptable one, however, we should (re)include some of the roles that the actual slaves played as this gives the reader much more insight into Jefferson's relationship with slavery than any of the views ever will. It's late. I will do this tomorrow if someone else hasn't already. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, your points about Jefferson's personal treatment of slaves are well worth discussing on the Thomas Jefferson and slavery article. In my opinion, which is clearly shared by others, they are not necessary for this article, which is getting uncomfortably long. Please work for consensus instead of unilaterally adding more verbiage about Jefferson and slavery to this article.--Other Choices (talk) 06:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The amount of text I added about the actual slaves amounted to only a few sentences and was and is not what has turned the slavery section into a very long section all over again -- now with three sub sections while the section continues to grow at a fast rate -- and with not a lot of discussion beforehand. Once again we need to condense the text and summarize better. We should try to keep the text under one page and give the reader as many important facts as is possible so they are not mislead. While the current version we have now says that Jefferson split up families, this rarely occurred and leads the reader into thinking this was the norm . I see other inaccuracies that need attention. e.g.Southerners were not the only ones who viewed Africans as inferior, this was a common view in those days, shared by most western and other civilizations of the time. Also, at one point the section says Jefferson owned 600 slaves during his life while another passage says he "owned 700 different people at one time or another". He never owned 700 slaves at one time, this was over the course of his life. Section is once again way too long and is filled with skewed claims and inaccuracies. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:14, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

New section on slavery

We have now a new section on TJ and slavery that may prove a useful compromise. Yopienso drafted the part on TJ's ownership of slaves and I drafted a part on his policy positions over the years. Rjensen (talk) 05:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Not bad, however, we need to briefly outline the lives of the slaves, as after all they are the essence of the subject. We can do it with two or three sentences -- and why not? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 06:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I feel that Thomas Jefferson is the essence of this article Rjensen (talk) 07:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Nice idea to split. Good work. Agree with RJ, 600 other individuals, besides TJ, are going to have 600 different experiences. Slave life depended on who you worked with, where you worked, whether you remembered Africa or freedom, and how badly you desired freedom or could accommodate yourself to the indignities or rewards, among multiple other things that make up life and health. Such details, to the extent they can be found belong in the daughter article or in the biographies of individual slaves, or individual plantation articles. A good resource would most recently be the Smithsonian exhibit on 6 slave families but that's their detailed story, and not summary of TJ. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:51, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm very pleased with this progress, and agree with RJ and ASW. Some detail on the life of slaves at Monticello, including Christmas and the many jobs they performed, should be added to the daughter article. Yopienso (talk) 14:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Slow down, please, Quark.

• He expressed some reservation about flogging, once saying it would "degrade them in their own eyes." Why "once"? You're changing the meaning.
• he declined to free any slaves upon his death, though he allowed five to escape, and listed them as runaways This is not true. See the source.
• You've utterly removed the sense of many historians that TJ sowed the philosophical seeds of freedom, despite his own actions. Yopienso (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe the section has been improved, however, there is is minimal effort to put into the article that scholars disagree that Jefferson was a life long foe of slavery. In fact the first sentence states that Jefferson believed slavery was a bad policy. That is not entirely true. Jefferson believed slavery was good for blacks because he viewed them as inferior. The reader in the first paragraph is forced to believe this statement without any point of view from scholars who disagree that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Jefferson never said slavery was "good for blacks", he said they were better off as slaves in America for reasons of their survival and practical placement. This has been pointed out to you several times. Jefferson was ALWAYS opposed to slavery, and again, there is a lifetime of evidence and RS's that say so. This view needs to be restored to the section. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

You make it sound like he was enslaving them out of benevolence. He thought they were better off as slaves because he saw them as little more than animals.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 22:54, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

{E/c}

I forgot to say, even Lincoln, a northerner, was emphatic 100 years later that Negroes were inferior to whites and advocated deportation.

The new section, "Views of slaves and blacks," is great information, but for the sake of brevity in this article, I believe it should be in the daughter article. What do other editors think? Yopienso (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Cmguy, RJensen helpfully split the issue into public and private views and actions. I believe the last paragraph of the "Plantation owner" section should be expanded and cited to highlight the criticism. Try your hand at it! (Succinctly.) Yopienso (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Section needs to be scaled down considerably. It is now the largest section in the biography, over three pages long. Once again, we have undue weight (and other) issues emerging all over again. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:38, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

As stated, Rjensen and Yopienso improved the slavery section. Thanks. Finkelman specifically lists the names of scholars who oppose Jefferson as anti-slavery. I do not believe this has been adequately addressed in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The views on blacks and slaves needs to be in the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

The criticism of Jefferson as not anti-slavery has to do with Jefferson's both public and private life. The plantation owner segment only addresses his private life. As the article currently is written, the reader is forced to conclude that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Correction: The article currently states that there are scholars who view Jefferson as anti-slavery. That is good. I am not sure Finkelman is addressed correctly, since he believed that scholars created a "myth" that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I just redid the slavery section. What comments or concerns do you have about it?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 20:25, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert:As mentioned before, there are scholars who view that Jefferson was not anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

As of right now the section is completely unacceptable because of size concerns. Brad (talk) 21:44, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, apparently Quark does not realize that this is suppose to be a summary, see Wikipedia:Summary style, and stop this foolishness with getting the page locked. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it needs to be condensed, but it needs to be condensed to something that is historically accurate, which it was not before.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Quark, you introduced at least 4 historical errors. I listed them above and corrected them, but you reverted my corrections. What errors do you believe I introduced? Yopienso (talk) 22:57, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I definitely want you to correct any errors I might bring into the article, but you reverted everything instead. My change to the slavery section wasn't supposed to be a final version but the starting point of an effort to condense the many sources into a well-sourced and balanced section. Because of this I didn't delete much of what was there before, but rearranged it. When you revert the entire set of changes, we can't even begin this process.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh, please, Quark. This is a cooperative venture. If you would have introduced condensed material as you should have there is allot less we would all have to work together over. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Fresh bloat

I've just removed a lot of bloat, imperfectly due to time constraints. I've asked Quark not to edit here until he can be more collaborative. Yopienso (talk) 20:37, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't ask me not to edit. Your blanket revision restored a very flawed version. Lets not start an edit war.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 20:46, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Edit warring

For anybody's information, Quarkgluonsoup has reported me for edit warring. Yopienso (talk) 21:24, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Article lock

The article has been locked so that the current dispute can cool off. I think we need to get a couple of facts straight on the topic of Jefferson's views on slavery:

• He had no moral qualms with enslaving blacks, and he saw them as little better than animals. Some editors are spinning this into some perverted form of benevolence or moral concern for them on his part.
• His treatment of his slaves showed how little he cared for their well-being. He beat them, separated them from their families permanently as punishment, freed only a handful, and bought and sold many.
• His concerns on slavery were only on its effects on whites, in particular the risk of slave uprisings and on its ability to corrupt whites.
• His only legislative actions against slavery were the proposal of a law to prohibit slavery in the territories in the 1780s (though it allowed slaves to be brought into them and would have freed none) and his singing of the law that ended the slave trade.
• He undermined other attempts to crack down on slavery (notably as chairman of the committee to revise Virginia's laws), and never joined the many others of his generation to push for emancipation or even manumission (he opposed manumission and almost never did it himself).

I have noticed that the quotes some editors have used to argue that he was against slavery out of moral concerns for blacks either badly distort and decontextualize the quote, or simply use fabricated quotes (I don't think anyone here is acting in bad faith, but that we have a bit of a telephone game effect going on with his quotes). Many of the citations in the slavery section before my changes to that section were badly misquoting the sources. People are conflating opposition to slavery due to the fear of uprisings with his racist belief that blacks were better off enslaved to claim that he opposed slavery out of paternalism and concern for blacks and moral opposition to slavery. This constructs a version of Jefferson that is completely foreign to he Jefferson of history.

What changes do the editors here want to make to the slavery section (besides condensing it)? What is wrong, out of context or unnecessary?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd be pleased to work together with you on this.

• Your first two points above are unhistorical. The section would have to align with Monticello.org's take on TJ and slavery (also here) as well as D.B. Davis's. The 1911 Ency. Brit. is a good source for your angle that Jefferson's anti-slavery sentiments were political and pragmatic. Putting all sources together, he was against slavery both for the good of the Negroes and for the good of the [white] USA. The second footnote in the Enc. Brit. article says, " He owned at one time above 150 slaves. His overseers were under contract never to bleed them; but he manumitted only a few at his death." This was considered humane treatment in that day.
• We will need to remove the word "southern" wrt views on black inferiority; this was the general, not only the regional, view. See my links above (17:09, 23 July 2012) for Lincoln's superiority and advocacy of deportation.
• For brevity's sake, we'll have to remove the list of historians (or tuck them away in a note), the mention of Haiti, and the details of the slaves he freed.
• We'll have to source or remove, ". . .compared with other slave owning Virginians of his day, Jefferson was unusually hostile to the idea of emancipation. . ." If this refers to Edward Coles and Robert Carter, they were the exceptions.
• We'll have to restore and complete my conclusion to the section or craft another conclusion that reiterates the contradictions of the issue.
• We'll have to remove the section, "Views of slaves and blacks".

This list is not comprehensive, but is a starting point. Real life is picking up speed for me, and I'm not sure how much time I will be able to dedicate to helping, but I look forward to a collaborative effort. Yopienso (talk) 01:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

On your points:

• Monitcello.org is the website for the foundation that runs part of his plantation and makes money by selling tours of it. It is a source with a conflicted interest, not an RS. Per wikipedia policy, "academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources." These are secondary sources written by scholars, not websites written by people trying to make money off of the reputation of the individual in question. Monitcello.org shouldn't be used at all because of its vested interest in Jefferson's reputation, and it certainly shouldn't be used when it conflicts with the work of scholars. It is odd that you cite Davis in support of a claim that Jefferson was anti-slavery, as he published a seminal work on the topic that settled whatever doubt was remaining that he was pro-slavery. I don't even see in your link where Davis says Jefferson was anti-slavery. An article from 1911 is too old to use, especially when so much has been written since. You confuse his low opinion of blacks with a concern for their well being.
• It is not true that most of Jefferson's day had a low opinion of blacks. If anything, most did not (don't confuse late 19th century racism with late 18th century racism), and those who did mostly thought it was because of their status as slaves. Jefferson was one of the few of his day to actually argue that they were inferior because of their race.
• I am all for brevity, but we can't have the article portray him as anti-slavery when he was not.
• See my prior comment.
• I am not sure what you want to say.
• We need a section on his view of blacks, or a least integrate the core of it into the larger slavery section.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 02:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, and thanks for your input. I'm responding to your responses in hopes other editors will join the discussion and, with compromise on all sides, we can move forward.

1. In April there was consensus that Monticello.org (but not the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Foundation!) is a RS for this article.

2. Henry Louis Gates (quoting Hume and Kant) and A. Leon Higginbotham (deceased) think blacks were always deemed inferior. I realize they are in all likelihood biased, but they are respected scholars. Shakespeare's Othello shows 16th-century Venice discriminated against "Moors." Look at Julien-Joseph Virey's 1801 illustration. Or consider the Negro's place in the 18th-century's Great Chain of Being. During the Revolution, New Hampshire lumped Negroes with "lunatics and idiots" as exempt from bearing arms. The notion of black inferiority was not peculiar to southern whites. (Maybe we can get rid of these unwieldy links after we've adjusted the article.)

3. We have discussed at great length the paradox of Jefferson's being both anti- and pro-slavery. Davis, in The Problem of Slavery in the Age of Revolution, 1770-1823, writes, ". . .he was one of the first statesmen in any part of the world to advocate concrete measures for restricting and eradicating Negro slavery" (174) and, "The truth was that Jefferson had only a theoretical interest in promoting the cause of abolition" (178). We have also long discussed the difference between his words and actions. You saw fit to remove my line, "This fact conflicted with his Enlightenment ideals, causing lifelong contradictions between his public rhetoric and his daily realities."

4. "See my prior comment." Sorry, I can't make the connection with any statement by you or me.

5. I want to say something to this effect: Some modern historians criticize Jefferson for perpetuating slavery; others praise him for propounding ideals that eventually bore the fruit of freedom for African-American slaves. (The NY Times's review of the Smithsonian exhibit ends, If slavery was, throughout global history, the rule, the exception was the last 200 years of gradual worldwide abolition. And Jefferson, for all his “deplorable entanglement,” helped make it possible.)

6. We certainly need it in the daughter article; consensus here seems to be it's too much for this one. Yopienso (talk) 04:59, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

On your comments:

1. Wikipedia is not a Wikiality, Monticello.org is not an RS, especially when scholarly works contradict it. Odd that you would conclude that it is when you admit that the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Foundation is not, since this is the website for that foundation.

2. Gates was a 20th century poet and Higginbotham was a 20th century judge, so I don't know why that is relevant. You are looking for bits and pieces of the historical record to validate your claim, which is prohibited on Wikipedia as it is original research. The fact is that Jefferson's views on blacks were based on scientific racism, which was rare before the mid 19th century. In any case this is relevant, as this article is not trying to compare his views to others, but to describe his views.

3. There is no paradox in Jefferson being proslavery and antislavery because he wasn't antislavery. There is, however, a paradox due to him writing that "all men are created equal" while being proslavery.

4. OK

5. No serious scholars make that argument, nor would any give him credit for events that happened long after his death.

6. I agree that this article is too long, but it needs to be condensed in a way that makes it historically accurate.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 05:28, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

1. Sorry, I meant the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society. I wasn't involved in that discussion, which I hope you've read. Contradicting a group of editors Dismissing consensus isn't the best way to collaborate. Adding: You would need to discuss this.

2. Gates is a scholar on black culture. Do you remember Pres. Obama's "Beer Summit"?

I see I didn't say in my edit summary that I moved the "Views of slaves and blacks" section to the daughter article. Anyone frustrated at not being able to edit this one could tackle that one. Yopienso (talk) 06:02, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Note Let's not go back to this useless just attack the sources. (It's always blanket statements like 'yours are all bad because their lying or corrupt'). As was discussed, the TJ Foundation is a publisher of high quality secondary and tertiary sources, and it has an expertise on Jefferson and Monticello. Its website (monticello.org) in its history pages is a tertiary source, (although where there are academic papers on it those would be secondary). Secondary sources are what is wanted for detailed information. If there are intractable disputes that cannot be resolved about a particular sentence and a particular source, take it to the reliable sources notice board. (Any sentence in a source should be read in full context both of itself and other sources -- sections do not align with one source as may have been suggested above) I would suggest you guys sandbox it for a few days (if one of you is willing to offer your sandbox) Finally, Jefferson had various clashing moral concerns (many were for whites and the United States) but one of them (perhaps not paramount) was the proper treatment of slaves and Africans (see, eg his letter to his friend where he asked him to keep and protect them). Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

See also, this list of sources TJF/slavery/race Biblio searchAlanscottwalker (talk) 10:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of article-size...

Just ran the Page size utility on the article. Want some stats?

Document statistics:

File size: 543 kB

Prose size (including all HTML code): 123 kB

References (including all HTML code): 22 kB

Wiki text: 170 kB

Prose size (text only): 83 kB (13535 words) "readable prose size"

References (text only): 1501 B

This is what WP:SIZERULE states:

Readable prose size	What to do
> 100kB	Almost certainly should be divided
> 60kB	Probably should be divided (although the scope of a topic can sometimes justify the added reading time)
> 50kB	May need to be divided (likelihood goes up with size)
< 40kB	Length alone does not justify division
< 1kB	If an article or list has remained this size for over a couple of months, consider combining it with a related page. Alternatively, why not fix it by adding more info? See Wikipedia:Stub.

And it seems that this article is somewhere near #660 on the List of Long pages (last I looked it is apparently at #661 at [173,198 bytes]), but not sure how the size is assessed for this grouping: Longest Wikipedia articles. I know I haven't edited this article much lately, but maybe we all should

Think

Think before we add anything more to this article...

Food for thought anyway... Shearonink (talk) 23:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Didn't realize it had been locked (again...that's twice it's gotten full-protection in the past six months?), but for everyone to keep in mind the sheer size of the article would probably be a good thing. This is assuming, of course, that the article does get unlocked... Shearonink (talk) 00:05, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I have been ever vigilant about the size of this article and there are several archived threads about this. Most recently the article has dropped from about 15,000 words which is good progress but naturally this is ignored and pumped up almost constantly. There is a lot of information about TJ still missing from the article that needs to be covered which will only increase that word count unless serious summary style is adhered to in existing sections. Brad (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

{E/c}So our readable prose text size is 83 kB. I looked up Jefferson in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, notorious for long articles. Theirs is, according to my word processor, 8145 words long, with 50525 characters, including notes and a bibliography "Authorities" which are far briefer than our refs, notes, etc. I think that's about 49 kBs. Conclusion: 50 kB of readable text may be a good goal. Yopienso (talk) 00:52, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The trend at WP these days seems to be allowing articles to exceed the 10,000 word limit quite often. Several featured articles are over that by several thousand words. I'm not suggesting that we should abandon the guideline of 10,000 words but with a topic like TJ you have to expect that it will. I've said elsewhere that a realistic goal for this article would fall somewhere around 11-13,000 words. But editors keep ignoring this because spin-off articles don't allow for main-stream grandstanding of their pov. Brad (talk) 18:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Planned proposal on slavery section

Here is a planned proposal on the slavery section. The goal is to get Thomas Jefferson to good article status. The only way for this to occur is for all editors to drop any POV issues, including myself. Here is my proposal that I believe can allow editors to work together with limited edit conflicts. These are suggestions. Once the slavery section is cleaned up, then the next step is to get TJ to GA. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

• Use book or article author references on the slavery section. Gwillhickers may have mentioned this, but Monticello.org does not state who writes their material. The current article appears to not have any Internet sources without author. I believe that is good for the article section on slavery.
• Editors can choose the top 5 book or article sources that would be used in the TJ slavery segment. The segment does not need to be oversourced. Modified: Editors limit the number of citations in the slavery segment. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
• Avoid blanket statements.
• Allow alternative opinions on whether Jefferson was anti-slavery or not anti-slavery.
• Save detailed statements for the Thomas Jefferson and slavery article.

Comments

This section is for comments on the proposal to improve the Thomas Jefferson slavery section. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I would suggest Finkleman and Ferling as two author sources. Other sources could be pro Jefferson as anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:49, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I recommend Bernstein for balance and for addressing the ambiguity and contradictions. Yopienso (talk) 06:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Bernstein would be good. Miller is good for the opening. I believe in keepin the same format, but reducing the size. Rjensen and yourself, Yopienso, did a good job writing the new material. Much of the material that is currently in the article needs to be moved to the Thomas Jefferson and slavery article. Davis is a good source also. The 5 sources was only a suggestion, however, I believe best that the slavery segment not be over sourced. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:46, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The problem isn't the number of sources, but the number of citations. As with other contentious articles, this one has the unpleasant feature of citing nearly every assertion. This is not for the convenience of the reader, nor for scholarship, but because of in-house wrangling. I myself think Monticello.org is reliable for two reasons despite, as Quark points out, its operating a tourist attraction. 1. Look at the board of advisors. 2. Scholarly books contradict each other, too, and may have errors. I don't think it best to use just 5 scholarly books as sources. Even my little papers cite to far more than that. Yopienso (talk) 16:07, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Monticello.org is a website trying to sell tickets to Jefferson's plantation. It has a vested interest in his reputation and is not a scholarly source. We can use it if it doesn't contradict the work of scholars in secondary sources, but when it does (as with its claim that Jefferson was always anti-slavery), the nearly uniform view among scholars that this is not true has to be used. This is a question of historical fact, not whether Jefferson was justified in something. Whenever a secondary source from scholars goes up against something else, the scholarly source always wins, according to Wikipedia policy.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 16:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Yopienso (talk) 16:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

OK. Yopienso, limiting the number of citations is good. Quarkgluonsoup, using an author is best whenever stating that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Both scholar points of view need to be used in the article concerning Jefferson was anti-slavery or not anti-slavery. The reader needs to be given enough information to make their own decisions. I agree that Monticello.org has a vested interest in Thomas Jefferson. I was unware that they sold tickets to visit Monticello. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:40, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

[Insert]: It's an exceedingly weak or irrelevant argument. Museums, in the US, charge admission. It's just as easy to charge to see Simon Lagree, as it is a Saint (perhaps more so). However, the separate point, above, about using and employing secondary sources is correct, policy based, and well reasoned. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that there is a legitimate question about what his exact views on slavery were, (most of this should be addressed in the Jefferson slavery article, not this article) but the issue here are claims that he was always anti-slavery. He can't be always anti-slavery and sometimes pro-slavery, and there isn't really a scholarly dispute whether he was ever pro-slavery in some way. I think this is what is holding up this section. If anything, one solution might be to be as vauge as possible here and to not say anything definitive. Saying he was always anti-slavery is very definitive.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 17:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree Quarkgluonsoup. Jefferson did view slavery as degrading towards white society as he stated in Notes on the State of Virginia and he was different then Southern slave owners in that he publically addressed the subject of domestic slavery until 1785 and that he personally viewed himself as anti-slavery as Ferling as pointed out. He publically addressed the subject of the slave trade until 1807. With that said, Ferling points out the Manumission Law of 1782 was passed while Jefferson was not a member of the Virginia legislature implying that Jefferson was an obstructionist. There are Jefferson's views that blacks were inferior and that freed blacks needed to be deported, rather then be citizens living in a white society. This more then anything may have kept blacks enslaved in the South since Jefferson viewed whites as blacks caretakers. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:42, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Finkleman goes into depth on the manumission issue, and makes it clear that he successfully obstructed it. As chairman of the committee to revise Virginia's laws, Jefferson rejected attempts by the committee members allow voluntary manumission in the revised laws. I think another cause of the confusion here is that people are defining "anti-slavery" in different ways. His record suggested he (like everyone else of his generation) always had some problem with it, but this is not the same as being "anti-slavery".

There were slaveowners who were anti-slavery, such as Ben Franklin and arguably George Mason and George Washington, along with many other smaller figures whom Finkleman discusses. What they usually had in common was that they freed all their slaves at some point, and typically didn't buy and sell them as often as Jefferson did. Most even joined some emancipation group, which Jefferson never did. Jefferson didn't oppose slavery but rather opposed the effects of slavery on whites. The article needs to be clear that this was the basis of what hostility he had to the institution, not that he was concerned for the well being of the slaves. Almost nothing in his written record suggests that he was, and his actions as a slaveholder make it clear that it wasn't a large concern for him.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert:As mentioned before, I believe the article needs to avoid blanket statements such as Jefferson was not anti-slavery or Jefferson was anti-slavery. The slavery segment needs to focus on Jefferson's rhetoric and actions for or against slavery. His obstruction of the Manumission law needs to be mentioned in the article, without specifically stating that this was not an anti-slavery position. The reader is intelligent enough to make up their own minds. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Q', You sound like Finkleman is the only source you've ever read on Jefferson. And your claims are weasel. Didn't sell slaves as much? Jefferson on numerous occasions made it clear he was opposed to slavery for a number of reasons, and many RS's also confirm he was always morally opposed to slavery, always. You've mentioned one reason but twisted it to mean Jefferson was only concerned about whites. As for your comment that Jefferson thought slaves were little more than "animals", this also tells us you don't do much reading and have somehow ignored a lifetime of evidence that clearly shows Jefferson's interaction with slaves and his opposition to slavery. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, there is no need to be an obstructionist editor. Quarkgluonsoup and I were having a good conversation and then you immediately start with your negative comments. Editors need to have the freedom to discuss the article. The goal is to get Jefferson to GA. Nothing has yet been added to the article and your continual accusatory tone in your own arguments does not help resolve the Jefferson and slavery section of this article. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:13, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

"obstructionist editor"?? All I have done was add a small amount of historical context, days ago, the likes of which have been removed mostly. A few days ago I reversed a couple of my reverts hoping Q' would slow down, but that obviously is not his concern, at all. -- "Nothing has yet been added to the article"?? The section is almost four pages long. You're not even rational. And please do not speak to me about my "tone" while the page is being tossed like a salad. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:24, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I was speaking in terms of the talk section not the actual article. If we can keep the rhetoric toned downed just enough, I believe the slavery section will be resolved. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

First sentence test

Here is a first sentence test for the opening of the slavery section:

"From the beginning, Thomas Jefferson, was morally opposed to slavery, and was outspoken in his view that the institution was destructive to society." Cmguy777 (talk) 20:45, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

One problem: he wasn't morally opposed to slavery. How about this:

"Thomas Jefferson's views on slavery were complex--some aspects of it he supported, while others he opposed.

Maybe we should just be vague on this point?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 20:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not disagreeing with that statement, Quarkgluonsoup, yet the reader does not have anytime to make their own decision. Being morally opposed did not mean he did not enjoy the material benefits from slavery. How about this:

Thomas Jefferson, from the beginning, was outspoken in his view that slavery was morally destructive to society. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:44, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

This sentence is similar to Rjensen's statement, but I believe makes sense. He did write in Notes on the State of Virginia, his moral opposition to slavery. Ferling, who is critical of Jefferson, acknowledges this. This does not mean that all of Jefferson's actions were anti-slavery or opinions were anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

When people want to cite his words for showing that he was concerned for blacks or that he had moral issues with slavery, they typically cite that line from Notes on the State of Virginia but they are vague and followed by a long argument about how corrupting it is for whites. Finkleman specially notes how weak this line of argument is, and that any other quotes of his on the morality of slavery are rare or non-existent. We can't take a single vague line of his, read much more into it than there was, and assume that he always thought this way, especially when he never before or after echos this opinion.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:27, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Cm', Q', thank you for making this effort in the midst of all the calamity. IMO we are going to need more than one sentence to open a topic like this one. Below is my suggestion for an intro' to the section, using few details, while equal footing has been given to both camps among historians.

Thomas Jefferson was born into a society that greatly depended on slavery. While his family owned slaves he opposed the practice of slavery in his youth and during his life he made many attempts to end the practice but ultimately failed. Jefferson is considered by many historians to have always been an opponent of slavery while many other historians do not share this view, criticizing him for various inconsistencies.
-- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:29, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

That is good, Gwillhickers, but are we to keep the same format in the current article with three sections? Jefferson, in his enlightenment ideals was attempting to be at the forefront of the slavery question in Virginia. In 1769 he proposed manumission and deportation, unsuccessfully. In 1782, the Virginia legislature liberally manumitted slaves without deportation while Jefferson was not in the legislature. Ferling states that Jefferson wanted to be known as a foe of slavery. I agree that mentioning Jefferson lived in a society of slavery is important. I believe we need to avoid blanket statements and stay with the specifics of what Jefferson actually supported. For example Jefferson supported banning the importation of slaves. This was primarily done to control the slave population and increase the price of tobacco. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:51, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Cm'. Remember we're talking about the intro. The 'specifics' were very general and factual, no 'blanket statements' or views. i.e. Jefferson was born in a slave owing society, he opposed it from the beginning and historians have differing views as to what this amounts to. As we discussed not long ago, regarding the 100's of historians for Jefferson, we need to keep the section summarized with general and neutral historical commentary at the end. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Saying that he was born into a slave society is not telling the reader something they didn't already know, and functions as an attempt to justify Jefferson's pro-slavery views. It thus has the character of something you would find in an essay, not an encyclopedia entry.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Wrong. Many people don't know the first thing about Jefferson, much less the details of his family. If you feel including basic historical content is something that will justify Jefferson dealings with slavery then you no doubt want to remove all historical content. At this point I find it difficult to place much faith in your activity here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:35, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Quarkgluonsoup, in my opinion, mentioning Virginia was a slave society is to give background information that Jefferson was one of many slaveowners, not to justify slavery. There was a slavery economics that I believe is important for the reader to know. Jefferson was anti-slavery for pragmatic economic reasons, as well as moral. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:16, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If by "anti-slavery" you mean "broadly opposed slavery and worked to end it" then Jefferson wasn't anti-slavery, and if by "moral objections" you mean "concern for the blacks", then he had no moral objections to it. He didn't propose a manumission law, he prevented one from being enacted. Finkleman specifically disputes Ferling's claim that Jefferson was known for opposing slavery. Finkleman notes that Ferling doesn't state where he got that claim from, and says that it simply wasn't true. If we mention that Jefferson lived in a slave society, it comes off as apologizing for or justifying him, and the reader is well aware of the fact that Virginia in the late 18th century was a slave society. I agree that we should avoid blanket statements, although claiming that he morally opposed slavery simply isn't historically accurate, and RSs can be used to dispute this claim.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:20, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Q', as I mentioned moral opposition to slavery does not mean that Jefferson opposed the material benefits of slavery. Mentioning that Jefferson's white supremacy and Finkleman's view that Jefferson lacked of concern of blacks needs to be in the article. I agree Jefferson obstructed the 1782 manumission law because there was no deportation requirement. Jefferson did propose the 1769 manumission law that included deportation. Ferling states Jefferson wanted to be known as a foe of slavery. That is not the same as he was known the foe of slavery. Jefferson was an exception because he morally spoke out against slavery. Ferling states that Jefferson suggested to not being committed to the preservation of slavery, i.e. his 1769 manumission proposal. Ferling states that Jefferson, "clamed to be a dedicated foe of slavery." Ferling was not stating that Jefferson was a dedicated foe of slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:47, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

The 1782 law was a different matter. The 1769 manumission law was obstructed by Jefferson, not proposed by him. I noticed that a lot of material in this article comes from William Randall. Both Onuf and Finkleman heavily criticize Randall's biography of Jefferson (see [1], page 199-200, especially footnotes 21 and 22). Finkleman attacks Randall's book for "unrestrained exaggeration and misrepresentation" which has been "thoroughly demolished by serious scholars". According to Onuf, Randall's book "bears a superficial resemblance to a serious work of scholarship" that isn't as much as biography as "a student term paper that has metastasized to grotesque proportions." It looks like the claim that Jefferson proposed a manumission law in 1769 comes from Randall, a claim (per Finkleman and Onuf) which has "no evidence or citation" and "Jefferson never proposed such a design; rather, as chairman of the committee that was charged with revising the law of Virginia, he absolutely refused to allow such a plan, written by others, to be considered by the state's legislature."Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 00:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

There was much concern and debate then about what to do with all of the freed slaves, who if manumitted, would have been largely left to roam around with no shelter, food, etc. Claiming Jefferson was not opposed to slavery on this note is baseless. Jefferson expressed concern for the general welfare of slaves in many other ways, including the way his slaves were treated, a general rule that was practiced. Again, he fought slavery in his lawyers years, while drafting the DOI and during his several attempts at emancipation legislation, not to mention when he outlawed the slave trade, with many RS's that say so. Established evidence. The Finkleman opinion doesn't change this. Also, please do not try to play 'RS cop' by using someone like Finkleman as your badge. If you have a legitimate complaint about a given source, say so, don't give us the 'Finkleman sez' routine. If you also feel monticello.org is not a RS you might want to look at all the items in the Jefferson article that currently use them as a source. There are about sixteen. At this point we need to start thinking about the basics first i.e. the Intro', and section/page length.-- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Q', where does Finkelman state Jefferson obstructed the 1769 manumission law? That is important. Where does Finkelman state Ferling was inaccurate? Gwill', this article needs specific information in order to be neutral. We have been trying to get the first sentence. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

[2], page 199-200, especially footnotes 21 and 22Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 02:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, I thought Jefferson wrote that he had proposed this plan. Mentioning the 1769 plan would be important regarless if Jefferson was for or against. There appears to be controversy whether he actually submitted such a plan. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:00, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't look like there is controversy, but rather a book heavily criticized by scholars made a claim that is factually incorrect. If there is any doubt, it shouldn't be included at all, but ultimately Jefferson stopped other legislators from proposing it.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 04:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you fellows please put this ta'do about the opinion of a couple sources (among hundreds for Jefferson) on hold? First things first please. Cm' we can achieve neutrality by simply including established historical facts. 'Jefferson did this, but didn't do that ... he also did this but failed to to that. Jefferson didn't go to church much and should have cleaned his fingernails more often after Martha died. But since Martha died what was the point? Sally didn't mind. This debate is becoming a blur, so you'll have to bear with me this evening. Your are discussing one minor point, at one point in time, about Jefferson's dealing with an ambiguous piece of legislation that did not address the fate of freed slaves. Trying to inflate this into something that undermines Jefferson's anti-slavery views doesn't even begin to compare to his many attempts to abolish slavery, beginning with the DOI on through to when he outlawed the slave trade. A monumental event. These sort of musings are trivial, highly debatable and distracts from the effort to get basic issues conceded first. i.e. Section intro' and section length. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, are you suggesting that you will block any historical views that state Jefferson is not anti-slavery? If that is so this article will go nowhere. Finkelman stated historians have manipulated historical facts in order to present Jefferson as a foe of slavery. Go ahead Gwillhickers, you and other editors can worship Jefferson, the idol. I will worship Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Block? Idol? Jesus? What are you talking about? This is just more of your horn blowing. Please stop. 'Finkleman sez'. A lot of other historians 'sez' also. You can include his 'view' in the section, however, as I've said, we will have to introduce other views and historical content to set the record straight. We don't want to mislead the readers with isolated out of context speculations from one source, do we? Again, you are trying to use speculations to undermine a life time of established evidence that shows Jefferson opposing slavery throughout his life. It's not working. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, I appreciate your admiration for Thomas Jefferson. However, I was upset that there is a constant attempt to block Finkelman from the article or any other source who viewed that Jefferson was not anti-slavery. Finkelman stated that Jefferson has been deified. That is why I mentioned idol worship. I will make an effort to keep the issue on Jefferson and slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

There has been no attempt to 'block' Finkelman. At the same time using this once source as the basis to your overall view that Jefferson somehow was not an opponent of slavery raises pov issues. You are not using Finkelman, or anyone else, to introduce historical content, you are primarily using this individual to voice speculations about 'inconsistencies'. -- Lets be clear about that major distinction. -- And please be reminded that Finkelman is on record for saying "Jefferson hated the negro". This is a fringe claim and is a big departure from many of the historians who simply feel Jefferson was not a consistent opponent of slavery. Such language exposes Finkelman as anything but an objective historian. Why you chose to cling to this individual is your own personal business, apparently. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:01, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

First sentence test edit 2

OK. I combined the ideas that were given above into two sentences for an introduction. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson was outspoken in his view that slavery was morally destructive to American society. His views on slavery and African Americans are considered complex; many historians viewed that he was always an opponent of slavery, while other historians do not share this view, criticizing him for various inconsistencies."

If you remove the word "morally" and replace "many historians" with "some historians" this could work.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 14:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Not bad, but we still have to 'place' Jefferson in a setting as this is the introduction.

Thomas Jefferson came from a society that largely relied on slavery. Beginning early in his life he was outspoken in his view against slavery feeling it was morally destructive to both the people who were slaves and to American society. His views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians regard Jefferson as an opponent of slavery, while other historians do not share this view, criticizing him for various inconsistencies."
-- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

He was not "outspoken in his view against slavery", and I can actually give a citation to prove that negative. He also said next to nothing on its negative effects on the slaves.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 14:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems inaccurate to pointedly state that Jefferson was "outspoken" against slavery when scholars frequently criticize him for his public silence on the issue in the second half of his life.--Other Choices (talk) 10:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : It would be highly inaccurate to ignore a life time of opposition to slavery because of Jefferson's general silence during his presidency, and it seems a couple of editors are brushing aside the outlawing of the slave trade as if it were nothing. Once again, there are many RS's that have Jefferson opposing slavery right up into his few final years. All you are doing here is picking at inconsistencies and trying to stretch them into something that you hope will overshadow the big picture. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

By all means, we have to give TJ his historical setting. We are writing for the general public, not ourselves, who are obsessed with TJ detail. Some people coming here will know very little about TJ or his times.

"Beginning" has to go, as I've insisted in the past. TJ, as a young lawyer, got in people's faces, but after that he was more nuanced and even, as has been said so often, silent.

You can't prove a negative, Quark; Gwillickers will have to come up with quotes from Jefferson, not quotes from historians, or fall back on "some historians say. . ."

Most important: As Quark has mentioned, we're stumbling on what is meant by anti- and pro-slavery. We can't even agree on what we mean by slavery. As I said a few days ago: What's confusing this issue is the varying definitions of "slavery" and the difference between TJ's theory and his practice. Sometimes wrt to Jefferson "slavery" means the institution itself and the idea of human bondage. Other times it means the economic system under which he labored. Then again, it refers to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The idea of human bondage troubled him, but he could find no remedy for the economy that required it. He could cut England out of their share. Some say writing the DOI was an example of outspokenness against slavery. I think we need to show what he wrote and what he did rather than attach ill-defined tags. Read his Sept. 10, 1814 letter to Thomas Cooper, which contains the famous line, ". . . there is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity." Then show what he sacrificed. (Nothing, right?) Yopienso (talk) 14:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I think this is a good start, but it also shows the danger of simply quoting his lines to prove points that the editors want (this is why Wikipedia policy puts secondary sources by scholars above all other, and prohibits original research). If we were to use the letter to Cooper, we should also use his letter to Cole (they were both written at the same time). In it, he attacked the Haitian revolution, miscegenation, made racist comments and beged Cole not to free his slaves (Jefferson wrote the letter in response to one from Cole, who was freeing his slaves and trying to convince Jefferson to do the same; Jefferson refused to do so, explained why manumission was wrong and begged Cole not to free his slaves either).

Quoting Jefferson and making arguments based off of that is original research and is prohibited on Wikipedia. What we need to be doing is quoting secondary sources by scholars. We also need to agree on what "anti-slavery" means and what "moral opposition to slavery" means. Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 15:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree on all points but one. I linked to that page for the letter for convenience, but was actually looking at it in a Cambridge book edited by Appleby. That quote is in almost all the literature.

Disagree on the interpretation of begging Coles not to free slaves. You didn't mention why, which TJ did. Leaving out part of the facts gives a distorted view. Note that any decent person of the day would have attacked miscegenation. It was illegal everywhere then, and in some places during my lifetime. Yopienso (talk) 15:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You don't have to take my word on Jefferson begging Cole not to free his slaves, read [[3], page 227. What facts do you think this leaves out? Do you have any scholarly sources that say that that "any decent person of the day" would have attacked miscegenation or that it was illegal everywhere then?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I certainly don't have to take your word for it, as I've studied the letter. I know he begs Coles not to free his slaves. Look at section 1346 here for his reasons.

I am mistaken that it was illegal everywhere. It was socially and morally unacceptable to most people. See Anti-miscegenation laws in the United States for details. Yopienso (talk) 16:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You are mistaken, and are assuming that racial views in the late 19th century were the same as those in the late 18th century. Remember, blacks could even vote in some states in the late 18th and early 19th century. The word "miscegenation" wasn't even coined until a half century after Jefferson's day. Do you have any citations that it was unacceptable to most in the late 18th century?Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 16:45, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It's all right there in the article I linked to. Unsurprisingly, clearer, more concise info is available off-Wiki. Here's a list. Here's a book; see pp. 213-214, 358. Yopienso (talk) 22:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

First sentence test edit 3

Hopefully this edit can work. This is the final attempt to get the first sentences into the slavery segement. I have incoorperated prior discussions into three sentences. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia agriculture planter society that economically depended on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, having inherited slaves from his father at an early age, Jefferson viewed that slavery was morally destructive to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as an opponent of slavery, while other scholars do not share this view, having been critical for his various inconsistencies."

BetterQuarkgluonsoup (talk) 16:07, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

How's this?

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as an opponent of slavery, while more recent scholars are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions. Yopienso (talk) 16:25, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Good job Yopienso. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Cmguy's was better. This works if you change "many historians" to "some historians" or keep it and say "while many other historians disagree." Currently, it says "most" historians think he was anti-slavery, and says nothing of those who think he was not anti-slavery, as though none think this.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 16:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Cmguy, I tweaked that while you were commenting, deleting a phrase. What do you think now?

Quark, I'm pretty sure of the "many" and think you missed the change of tense: many have regarded and then more recent are. I intended to show a shifting view. There may be a better way of phrasing that. Yopienso (talk) 16:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

How's this?

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; historians have long regarded Jefferson as a champion of liberty, while more recent scholars are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions.

Or,

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are complex, leaving a legacy of inconsistencies and contradictions. Yopienso (talk) 16:57, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The second is probably the best I have seen suggested here by anyone, including myself.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: This one is good. I am not sure other editors would approve. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:11, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Q' raised a good point. The more recent historians disagree with the other historians. I added disagree. Readers need to be aware that there are scholars who do not agree or "do not share" the view that Jefferson was anti-slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; historians have long regarded Jefferson as a champion of liberty, while more recent scholars disagree and are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions.

This one keeps the subject on slavery, not liberty. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are considered complex; historians have long regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while more recent scholars disagree and are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions.

We need a final agreement. The first two sentences are acceptable for the article. That last sentence needs one more tweak and then we can have editors vote for acceptance. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:29, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I think Yopienso's last suggestion is best. "Scholars" (i.e. as a group) have not thought of Jefferson as "a foe of slavery", nor have they thought of him a "a champion of liberty", which is more a popular conception that waxes and wanes over time and doesn't belong in the slavery section even if it were true.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:23, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes Q'. We can try that one. Here is another version. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; biographers have long regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while more recent scholars disagree and are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions." Cmguy777 (talk) 19:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is the other version from Yopenisio. We can vote on the top two versions. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are complex, leaving a legacy of inconsistencies and contradictions.

Your modification is better than your prior versions (though I would still tweak a word or two), but I think the second one (by Yopenisio) is best, partly due to its briefness.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 19:14, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree. My concern is that other editors may disagree with Y's version, although in my opinion, brief and to the point. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Final two first sentences versions

After discussion and modification two versions of the first sentences in the slavery section of the Thomas Jefferson biography have been completed. Please feel free to vote and/or give opinions on the final versions. All editors may not agree however, the first sentences are the most important in establishing neutrality of the slavery segment. Please do not edit the final versions until conscensus has been reached. Thanks. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Version #1:

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are complex, leaving a legacy of inconsistencies and contradictions.

Version #2:

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; biographers have long regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while more recent scholars disagree and are critical of his inconsistencies and contradictions."

Cmguy777's view: I believe Version #1 is most accurate, however, I believe Verson #2 contains the statement that his biographers regard Jefferson as anti-slavery. Either one is good, however, if any other editors demand that biographers are mentioned, that is fine. I believe each sentence needs to be referenced with an author source. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The big problem with #2 is that it suggests that his biographers as a group considered him anti-slavery, when not all did. It also ignores the fact that historians and other Jefferson scholars have been much more skeptical of these claims than some of his biographers, and suggests that they even these scholars don't necessarily disagree that he was anti-slavery . If we include #2, we would have to expand on it to add context, which goes against the goal of making the section much shorter and opens up more areas of possible disagreement.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 20:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Seems we're leaving our some very basic stuff. Historians, new and old, share differing opinions. There are many prominent modern scholars who do not share the Finklemen view. We've been through this before. Historians needs to be referred to the same way. I see above it is "biographers have long regarded ... " while it is "scholars" who do not share the view. We need to keep the language neutral and the same. . And contradiction is a pov. The so called contradictions are easily explained with historical content. inconsistencies is better and is not a conclusive term as is 'contradiction'. New comers to the debate need to review talk history. Again, we need to keep the language neutral.

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to both slaves and American society. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; Many historians have long regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."

Also, 'section length' still needs to be addressed by some editors. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We can eliminate "contradiction" and keep "inconcistencies". The "historians" versus "scholars" debate is side tracking the overall view there is disagreement concerning Thomas Jefferson viewed as anti-slavery. Why is there a need to add more context, Q'? We need editor consencus. Here is another version. The term American society includes both slaves and slave owners. Economics needs to be in the first sentence. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have long regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies." Cmguy777 (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That is better, but the word "long" should be deleted.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 21:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

American society is not being clear, and it can easily be assumed by the reader that slaves were not part of society because they were slaves. We can include the word 'economically' , remove the word 'long' and should be clear about American society and slaves.

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to both slave and free man alike. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I think we are making progress. The term "long" is ambiguous and undefined. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to American society. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies." Cmguy777 (talk) 21:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Q'. Do we have a reference that Jefferson's enlightenment views on slavery and Africans are complex? Cmguy777 (talk) 21:34, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We have several that say he was always opposed. In any case, we need to be clear. 'American society' can easily be taken to mean 'not slaves' by any given reader, so we need to use definitive language in no uncertain terms.

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to both slave and free man alike. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I can accept that Gwillhickers, for the sake of concensus. I believe if we get a reference that Jefferson's views on slavery and Africans are complex this paragraph is a go for the article. I am not sure how Rjensen would view the paragraph. I believe the paragraph is neutral and allows room for expansion in the article segment on slavery. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Jaffe (1996), Who Were the Founding Fathers? refers to Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia as complex views on slavery and African Americans. Page 209. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Now all we have to do is source the paragraph. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:36, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Virginia planter society was completely dependent on slavery; the non-slaving yeomen weren't part of planter society. Here is how I would tweak the suggested paragraph:

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society that was economically dependent on slavery. Although a (lifelong) slaveowner himself, he believed that slavery was morally unsupportable and harmful to both slave and master. His views on the institution and Africans are the subject of continuing debate. Many scholars have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies.--Other Choices (talk) 22:52, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

That is a good edit, Other Choices, however, I believe your paragraph is essentially stating the same thing with different words. Life long slave owner is not entirely accurate. For eleven years he was the son of a slave owner Peter Jefferson. Your statement "he believed that slavery was morally unsupportable and harmful to both slave and master." could be incoorperated into the paragraph. I like the term "morally unsupportable", but I prefer the use of the word "freeman" over "master". We need to get the references for each sentence in the paragraph. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how we'd source "freeman." If we used "master," then Jefferson's famous phrase "most boisterous passions" is frequently quoted in the secondary sources.--Other Choices (talk) 00:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Final draft paragraph with references

Here is final draft paragraph with added references. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery morally unsupportable to both slave and free man alike. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."" Cmguy777 (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

References

Stylistic point--"largely economically" is awkward. I don't think the "largely" is necessary or even true; I think the Virginia planter society was totally dependent on slavery. (That's why TJ couldn't free his slaves.) If it's generally agreed otherwise, I would say, "in a Virginia planter society economically dependent, for the most part, on slavery."

I think "to both slave and master" is much better than "slave and free man." We can't mitigate the central slave-master relationship; replacing "master" with "free man" isn't tight at all, and suggests all kinds of possibilities. The slave-owning free blacks didn't seem to think slavery was morally unsupportable. Also, "alike" is redundant. (If others prefer "free man," I suggest simply "morally unsupportable to both slave and free.") Yopienso (talk) 00:21, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert : Largely is more accurate, given the debate that involves that issue. There was much trade and commerce throughout Virginia and elsewhere in the south that was not "economically dependent" on slavery. Careful with the pov. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:32, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Yopienso. The term "master" is fine. I suppose slave masters and their children were free. Changes have been made. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery morally unsupportable to both slave and master. His Enlightenment views on the institution and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."" Cmguy777 (talk) 23:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Cm' you keep changing it. Jefferson said slavery was bad for both slave and white society, he didn't limit it to "slave and master". Slave and free man includes the "master", which is sort of a modern day buzz word and smacks of nearsighted academic pov. Also, "morally unsupportable" is vague and unclear. We also need to return 'largely', with 'economically' as to claim Virginia et al was completely dependent on slavery is a highly debatable pov. Whites outnumbered slaves by a high ratio and most did not own slaves and had other skills and trades not requiring slavery. Now it seems we're moving backwards. We need to use neutral and clear language. Your original 'Final draft paragraph with references' immediately above this last version is just fine except for "morally unsupportable". We need to change it to "he believed slavery harmful to both slave and free man alike". It's simple, definitive and neutral. Let's use it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Seems we already know from preceding text he is from Virginia, and that he is an enlightenment thinker. Shorter and less weasel words that Brad really dislikes:

"Like all plantation owners, Thomas Jefferson was dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner, Jefferson wanted the institution to gradually end. His actions and views with regard to slavery and Africans are complex; he has been anaylsed alternatively, as an active foe of slavery, and as an apologist for it.""

Apologist?? That is not exactly a definitive and common term. We need to keep the 'terms' clear and neutral. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:13, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, we can go back to the original final draft. I agree that we can't keepneed to avoid morphing the words, if possible. No time to be timid. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Neutral? You are apparently endeavoring to summarize contrasting views, so summarize them, as contrasting views. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, neutral. The introduction summary has appropriate references that give the readers information that there is division among historians concerning whether Jefferson was either a foe or pro slavery. Quite possibly Jefferson could have been both. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:29, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely dependent on slavery economically. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery was harmful to both slave and free man alike. His Enlightenment views on Africans and the institution of slavery are considered complex. Many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others do not share this view, criticizing various inconsistencies.

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The only issue is that the Howe source stated "slave and master". A freeman could be a slave master A free man is undefined as Yopienso mentioned. We need to stick with the source. As mentioned before, I am against morphing the paragraph words, yet, is their a source that states "freeman" over "master". That may be the a neccessary change unless a reference can be found that states "slave and free man". Cmguy777 (talk) 05:31, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Did the Enlightenment have a view on Africans? We cannot say that, if it is not the case. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson was a spokesperson for the American Enlightenment. Roseburg (2009), The Revolution in Geology from the Renaissance to the Enlightenment, p. 245 states the Thomas Jefferson was a child of the Enlightenment. Are you, Alanscottwalker, saying that Jefferson's rational views on slavery were not part of the Enlightenment? Cmguy777 (talk) 14:54, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Insert: To argue, without a source, that Jefferson's views on slavery were part of the Enlightenment is WP:SYNTH.--Other Choices (talk) 22:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Looks like you guys are overthinking this. When you all die, new editors will come in here and change it, so don't write this thinking it will be set in stone for all eternity. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 14:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE we put allot of work into being as neutral as possible. Not sure where your hostility is coming from. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

You like throwing that word 'hostile' around don't you? Nothing hostile coming from me. --THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE 16:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Were Jefferson's views on Africans part of the Enlightenment thinking or contemporary racism? Cmguy777 (talk) 15:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Contemporary racism. Race and slavery had nothing to do with the Enlightenment. As Finkleman makes clear, there were many slaveowners of his day whose views were more "enlightened" than Jefferson's. I don't think the word "enlightenment" should even be used in the paragraph.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 15:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The Enlightenment would belong further up in the intro, where we mention his intellectual pursuits. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Changes: I removed "Enlightenment" and changed "free man alike" to "master"; added "of slavery". Cmguy777 (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery morally unsupportable to both slave and master. His views on the institution of slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies.""Cmguy777 (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Changed :"morally unsupportable" to "harmful". Cmguy777 (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to both slave and master. His views on the institution of slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, criticizing his inconsistencies."" Cmguy777 (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The second is better, though you should replace "to both slave and master" to "society" and delete "criticizing his inconsistencies or change it to "and others also criticize his inconsistencies". You shouldn't merge the view that criticizes his inconsistencies with the view that doesn't see him as an enemy of slavery. Just about everyone notes and criticizes to some degree his inconsistencies.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

'Society' is not clear in terms of it including slaves and Jefferson didn't limit his concern about the effects of slavery to "masters", and if there is one source that says "slave and master" (only?) then I am sure there are others who don't make such a narrow and selective clam. Why are you continuously removing clear language?? We had a version above that was simple and clear, yet, a couple of editors are still tossing a new version back and forth. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:02, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Second is better but shorten: Strike "economically" as verbiage; strike the rest of the sentence after "harmful". Fine, with Quark's second point. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:23, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

The entire Virignia state was economically dependant on slavery according to Ferling. We have to go by the sources. The source neither states "society" nor "free man alike". We have to go by what the sources state. The last sentence second section is pointing out that there are those who believe TJ is anti-slavery, and those who disagree and view TJ is pro slavery. I could put that other editors disagree and view that Jefferson was not anti-slavery. That goes along more with Finkleman. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

"Thomas Jefferson lived in a Virginia planter society largely economically dependent on slavery. Although a slaveowner himself, he believed slavery harmful to both slave and master. His views on the institution of slavery and Africans are considered complex; many historians have regarded Jefferson as a foe of slavery, while many others disagree, believing Jefferson was not against slavery."" Cmguy777 (talk) 17:52, 26 July 2012 (UTC)" Cmguy777 (talk) 01:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Final decision needed and thanks

Thanks for everyone who helped create the final draft paragraph. We are getting close to unlocking the article. I feel that editors generally accept the paragraph as neutral as can be. A final decision is needed. Jefferson is complex, and I believe the reader can sort out whether Jefferson was pro or anti slavery. I believe he was both. The paragraph is sourced and ready to go into the article. My whole point was to have a neutral opening and then the rest of the slavery segment can fall into place. Once the slavery segment is solved and neutralized, then submit TJ for GA status. Once GA go for that FA status. Let's keep these as goals and I believe we can work around any disagreements. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

There is no doubt in my mind that Jefferson was always opposed to slavery, and perhaps sometimes faltered as a human being caught in the throws of reality. GA status? Take a look at the reference section. FA status? Forget about it, too many web page articles used as sources. Books/pages numbers never chance. Websites come and go and their addresses/pages/content always change, even ones like the Smithsonian and TJF. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:35, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

We have to go by what the sources state. I personally believe Jefferson was both pro and anti slavery. I would not give up hope on GA or FA status. With the exception of the Indian Policy, I am not sure that there would be any other issues that would be controversial. I do not judge Jefferson for being a slave owner. Let's say Jefferson was a dedicated foe of slavery all his life. The issue of Jefferson was not slavery. I believe the issue was that he just could not stand having an African as his fellow citizen. That is what held Jefferson back in advancing democracy. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:24, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense. Jefferson had many close 'Africans' that were part of his extended family, for openers. He interacted with Africans in many capacities and made many efforts to improve their existence while at Monticello and elsewhere. I am sorry but your view is racist and demented. Racist, as you think Jefferson hated (i.e."cant stand") the negro simply because of race, a projection on your part. Demented, as you are only seeing a fragment of the larger picture. I grew out of college while I was in college. How log did it take you? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Jefferson wanted to deport blacks after their freedom because he did not want them to be citizens. Jefferson always demanded deporatation of freed black slaves and he himself wrote that whites and blacks could not share the same country. Black historians have called Jefferson a racist and a white supremacist. The term racism was invented in the 1860's and only popularly used during the 1930's describing Hitler's policy against the Jews. By modern standards Jefferson could be considered a racist. What source states that Jefferson had close black friends? Cmguy777 (talk) 15:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Blocked page, once again

Q' you're a lose cannon. You've come through this page like a bulldozer making numerous major changes/deletions most often without discussion or edit summaries. Looking at recent history it's clear you are almost entirely responsible for and have provoked at least two edit wars that have now resulted in the blocking of the page. And what do we have for all your trouble? -- a section that is almost four pages long that looks like it was thrown together by a high school student with an attitude problem. Once the page is unblocked we need to do a major revert and start over -- with DISCUSSIONS first. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:03, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

If you continue edit warring, you will do yourself no favors.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 19:33, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Like the banner says above here:

Template:Controversial (history)

Please adhere to it. Brad (talk) 19:38, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Quarkgluonsoup, please tread lightly wrt edit warring. As far as I know, you're the only participating editor who has been warned and blocked for edit warring in the past. Please take to heart the message Gwillickers inelegantly expressed. Yopienso (talk) 23:01, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should tread lightly on this.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 23:07, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

No, I mean you should stop blustering about it. Yopienso (talk) 23:37, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

There are two hot button issues with this article; slavery and Sally Hemings. Ouark, you cannot just come in and dick-slap either of these sections without discussion. Disputes here have been going on for at least the past 18 months and it's been a lot of hard work and discussion to get things where they are now. Your tactics are to make substantial changes without discussion and then report people for edit warring when they revert you. That's really annoying underhanded behavior. Knock it off. Brad (talk) 00:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Course of action

In three days we will be facing the same issues so we need a general consensus about how to rebuild the section. Above work has begun on a draft for the intro'. Now we need to come to terms about the bigger picture before we start hacking out all the details and 'views'. Section length. Not long ago many of us concurred to scale these sections down and between the few of us we did it. This is why it's important (and considerate) that editors review page/talk history before they plunge the article into the same problems that were previously resolved. Three to four pages for this one topic presents us with a glaring undue weight issue. -- Gwillhickers (talk)

• I propose no more than one full page. (+ -) -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:06, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you explain what "page count" is? It's a very strange and incomprehensible way to talk about size since users will have their own screen sizes and settings. How about saying 500 words + or - 100? Brad (talk) 00:58, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

For example, the section is currently at 1,602 words. Brad (talk) 01:06, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I have a wide screen, and of course, if I adjust my hardware and/or browser settings I could render a page to include lots of text. However, to make reading easier I use default browser settings (Firefox) for text and a separate window, not the full width of my screen, as I don't want to have to turn my head back and forth when I'm reading and writing. For all practical purposes I would say a page is about, yes, 500 words, more or less. In any case, the section has bloated out, once again, and it needs to be de-bloated. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:14, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

At User:Dr pda/prosesize read about installing or using the tool for realistic judgment of article sizes. Brad (talk) 04:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that's certainly interesting. For my calculations above, I copied and pasted into a word processor and counted there. The directions don't say how to install on Google Chrome. Do you know how? Yopienso (talk) 05:43, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't install to a browser but to your .js page; here's mine User:Brad101/monobook.js. Putting it there means the tool is active all of the time. If you don't want it that way you can simply put the code into the address bar of your browser for the count results. Brad (talk) 17:08, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry; I just realized that it doesn't appear like the script will work with Google Chrome at all but you could certainly try it. Brad (talk) 20:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

About ten days ago the 'Slavery' section looked like this. I did a rough count of about 650 words. We shouldn't try to be too rigid about any particular number but 5 to 6 hundred words seems about right. If a few contributing editors, or anyone, would weigh on this we could go from there. i.e.Historical content, closing with equal weight from both camps among historians. I'm even open to letting ASW and Brad write/draft the section if it can be done in a few days. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems that each time I bring up word counts someone will say not to be rigid on word count. I've never suggested any such thing. When I say 500 words it doesn't mean that it can't be 501 or 100 words higher. Since the section is currently 1,600 words then setting a goal to chop off 1000 words is not unreasonable.

Secondly, the section should be returned to the version that existed before rjenson made his monumental addition without discussion. However, rjenson's work should not simply be wiped out but transferred the main slavery article. It's a good write up despite its size. If we return to the pre-rjenson version, it wasn't far from being finished so the work going on above here to reconstruct the section is time wasted. Brad (talk) 20:44, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Just as long as we can get the section back to a reasonable size with neutral language that would be fine by me also, but now we have to settle on which version to restore -- then, where to go from there. Neutral and brief are the operative themes here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Proposed draft

Here is a proposal for the basic framework for the section. If we can settle on this, we can then nominate two editors to write the section (hoping they will accept).

1st paragraph : Intro', setting, etc..

2nd paragraph : Plantation life, Jefferson's policy towards the treatment of slaves, noting exception to the rule

3rd paragraph : Political involvements. Mention of lawyer years, DOI language, emancipation attempts, and general silence during presidency, selling of slaves to settle estate, etc.

4th paragraph : Neutral, general historical overview, two to four sentences. i.e.brief, for the sake of the stability of this section.

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:46, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I like the current set up, however, an introduction paragraph can be given. We have been working on the first sentence(s) (or introduction paragraph) to establish a neutral tone in the article. I believe Public policy is a better description rather then Political involments. Cmguy777 (talk) 20:13, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

These are not names for subsections, they are general themes for the paragraphs. Section needs to be written like an historical article in an encyclopedia. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Alternative approach

It has been suggested by another editor to simply restore a previous version of the slavery section, one that existed before all the major deletions, additions and changes of the last week. I lean towards writing a good section from the beginning but restoring a previous version seems workable as well. We have less than two days to get organized as a group of editors here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:26, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and the "other editor" who suggested that was you. The prior section had too many problems, and most of what was in it is still in it (very little of it was actually deleted, most was integrated into the current section). The way we should go about it is to condense and modify the current section, as it is currently far more balanced than it was before.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 15:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I like the current subtitles that were made. That depends if the old version has the current subtitles. Also, some of the information in the current section can go into the Thomas Jefferson and slavery article. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:06, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Retrospectively, I am not sure that going back to a previous version would do any good. Let's work with what we have. We have made a neutral first paragraph and I believe the rest of the article can follow this lede. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Either we go back to a previous version and start from there, or introduce a draft and go from there. Also, some editors still have not been clear about section/page length. As we worked for summary and reduction of this section before, it should be about a page long i.e.500-600 words, as again, there are dedicated pages for this subject. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

No, we start from the current version and condense and edit it. We are working on the draft above.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 19:41, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion, however it is inherently problematic. i.e.You hope to take almost four pages of text and condense it into about a page. (!) Do you have any idea how long that will take considering the nit-picking and arrogant attitudes regarding edits? Thanks, but no. We need to get right down to condensing and restore a version that existed before the section took on demonstrable proportions, and work form there. Any vital points introduced by Rj' and others can be included if necessary. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

We can ask a neutral administrator to pick a version that existed before all the abrupt and mostly undiscussed changes. The page, evidently, is watched much, in spite of the relatively low attendance here on the talk page. Shouldn't be difficult to find someone. If it were left up to me I would even pick a version that existed before content was added about the actual lives of slaves -- and please note there was zero mention of slave's lives under Jefferson before. Funny how we see only what we want to see when we're jousting. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, there is no requirement for disussion before making any edits under Wikipedia policy. The current format is good with the three segments. I would not go back any further then this. I don't have any issues with Quargluonsoup's edits. If your intentions are only to get rid of Q's edits, then I am strongly against reverting. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't think any neutral admin would come along and pick a starting point. Although I favor the suggestion of going back, I don't see how it's doable. Looks to me that we're (or you're, since I'm not going to spend much time here) stuck with going forward--actually, not a bad position.

I see no reason to have a section on TJ's views of slaves. Slavery isn't the main point of this article--there's a whole separate article on that--yet it's longer than the section on TJ's interests and activities. The man was a genius, an inventor, architect, seedsman, an extraordinarily intelligent and inquisitive man who excavated an Indian mound and basically introduced the tomato to America, yet we say nothing about that but go on and on about slavery. There's no mention of his hemp crop, either.

Wikipedia policy is WP:BRD, but as this is a controversial article, we have greater constraints, as noted at the top of the page: "Please read the talk page and discuss substantial changes there before making them." Yopienso (talk) 05:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Perception of Negro inferiority

Let's remove the word "southern" in this sentence: "Jefferson shared the common southern paternalistic view that Africans were inferior to whites and needed supervision while in the United States."

Several days ago I provided examples and sources for the fact that this was a general and not regional attitude, starting with Shakespeare. (Search the page for "Othello".) Another editor said the sources represented WP:OR, which is not true. AFAIK, it's general knowledge that Europeans (and hence, Americans) thought Negroes were inferior; I merely supplied examples. Here are some more. The Concept of Negro Inferiority in American Thought. Wm. Wilberforce on the Idea of Negro Inferiority. Wilberforce wrote in 1807, "The advocates for the Slave Trade originally took very high ground; contending that the Negroes were an inferior race of beings." The author of the paper writes, "From their first explorations on the coast of West Africa in the sixteenth century, Englishmen were impressed with their own superiorty over black Africans." And, "In the course of his labors to abolish the slave trade, Wilberforce exposed the sham logic in the idea of Negro inferiority." I'm astonished anyone questions this. Yopienso (talk) 05:02, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I wonder why we use "paternalistic" instead of "racial" in that sentence? "Paternalistic" could go in the next sentence. Also, Jefferson wrote extensively about them, just "shared" seems misleading, so: "Jefferson wrote about and shared the then common racial view that Africans were inferior to whites and needed supervision while in the United States. This paternalism . . ." Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Though Yopienso has a point that it wasn't an exclusively southern attitude, it also wasn't a universal (or nearly so) attitude. The history books are filled with examples of people who did not have this view (Alexander Hamilton, George Washington, John Adams, Abigail Adams, Ben Franklin, and countless less famous people). I don't have a problem with removing "southern" but we have to make clear that it wasn't a universal or necessarily even an overwhelmingly common view. By the late 19th century it was, but we can't confuse late 18th and late 19th century views.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 14:01, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I believe Jefferson viewed blacks as children who needed to be taken care of, that would be paternalism. By modern standards Jefferson could be viewed or called a racist, however, the term racism is a French word created in the 1860's and only popularly used in the U.S. describing Hitler's policy against the Jews. Not all southern society was paternalistic, such as the Methodist and Baptist abolitionists. Many slave holders freed their slaves under the liberal 1782 manumission law that did not require deportation, as Jefferson had wanted. Cmguy777 (talk) 15:16, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Anyone who has looked at the sources I supplied will see this was a nearly universal attitude. Yes, there were individuals who did not concur, but that does not mean the general consensus was not that Negroes were inferior. I know more about Franklin than about TJ, btw, and agree with Prof. Waldstreicher on most points. Also, PBS:Like most people of his period, Franklin initially believed that African slaves and their offspring were inferior to white Europeans and that they couldn't be educated. He began to question his beliefs when he visited a school where young African children were being taught. In 1763, he wrote a letter to an English friend where he stated, "I was on the whole much pleased, and from what I then saw, have conceived a higher opinion of the natural capacities of the black race, than I had ever before entertained. Their apprehension seems as quick, their memory as strong, and their docility in every respect equal to that of white children.") Franklin owned several slaves.

My opinion is that it is important to include the paternalistic attitude. Today, that attitude is viewed with scorn, but actually it was an attitude of concern and responsibility born of what was considered the obvious "fact" that the Negro was inferior, as indeed his position and opportunities were. Yopienso (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

No one suggested using the term racist, but racial. "Race" became an established term in the 17th century in the modern sense, and was used in the 13th century. Also, the suggestion was to move paternalism, a few words away. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I see someone's added Stephen Ambrose to the article. I've avoided quoting him from what I consider a good article in the Smithsonian magazine because he has fallen into such disrepute. In my opinion, that doesn't negate his good work, but I thought he might be a controversial source. Yopienso (talk) 16:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Quark, do not ever again omit words from a direct quote without inserting an ellipsis. I cannot believe you omitted the words, "members of white American society," in good faith. Seems you were deliberately distorting Ambrose's thought. Yopienso (talk) 17:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Quark, time to vigorously edit

Since you're here, would you begin the serious trimming of the entire sections you added. Otherwise, others like me will have to do it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Done.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 15:23, 27 July 2012 (UTC)