Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement

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After a recent request, I added WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at Wikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement/Popular pages.

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the Tool Labs tool. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! Mr.Z-man 02:32, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of several LDS articles that apparently don't meet Wikipedia policy.

This is to inform those who are interested that some LDS articles have been deleted, are being considered for deletion, and may be deleted in the future. It appears that the nominated articles don't meet Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. I have spoken out in defense of all the articles, to no avail. I just wind up having another Wikipedia policy thrown in my face. Many of the 10 articles I created for currently-serving members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy have been nominated. I have a feeling that all articles about Second Quorum members, past and present, will be nominated for deletion as long as they don't meet GNG. Also nominated for deletion is the article about John M. Madsen, an emeritus general authority who is still considered to be serving. I have a feeling that all articles about emeritus general authorities will be nominated for deletion as long as they seem to not meet GNG. Just alerting everyone to this so that, if possible, the articles in question could be focused on to help them meet GNG. I have made it my practice of just leaving one comment on the relevant AfD page, and would encourage others involved in the WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement to comment as well, whatever your position might be on the issue of deletion. I don't intend to engage in debate, so if the consensus doesn't want these articles, there's not much more I can do to save them. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 05:11, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

It would be nice if these articles could be saved, but the deletion nominators do make good points: there are no references outside of closely-related LDS media (e.g. Desert News, New Era, The Ensign). After all, this isn't LDSpedia. I think the only way to save them would be to get third-party refs for at least some of the facts in the articles. These leaders are important to LDS members; not really to the public at large. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:25, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

A user has presented a new argument on this issue that has resulted in one failed deletion motion and no other further deletion motions for articles about Second Quorum of the Seventy members. So the question remains, given the new argument (which can be found here), would it be appropriate to suggest that the deleted articles about currently serving members be restored/recreated? I had thought of just being bold and making such a motion, but given the arguments that were put up against the existence of such articles previously, I wanted to get some feedback on whether it would be wise to make a motion that they be recreated or restored. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 04:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I decided after consideration to go ahead and be bold and leave a message with each administrator that closed the AfD discussions for the articles in question that were deleted. Some have already responded, and steps are being taken to get some kind of consensus as to whether, based on Vojen's new argument (presented here) previously deleted articles about currently serving members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy could be reinstated. We will see what happens as discussion is renewed and as time goes on. In the meantime, anyone is welcome to post feedback here. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Lacking IPA pronunciation in some List of names, places, etc. of TBoM

I've just found "Lamanitish" (servants of Lamoni) in Alma 17:26, that doesn't has its proper pronuntiation, either in the Pronunciation guide of The Book of Mormon or in Wikipedia. There's also a wrong redirection in the search box from "Lamanitish" to "Lamanites" (descendants of Laman). IgnominiouZ (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2014 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by IgnominiouZ (talk • contribs)

Dictionary collaoration proposal

Over at wikisource there is a PD reference source on the Book of Mormon which could be proofread and broken up into separate pages for each entry, maybe making access to such a source more easily available to all. FWIW, the Book of Mormon itself, and the Pearl of Great Price, are similarly available there.

I have nominated the dictionary as a possible collaboration of the month at wikisource:Wikisource talk:Proofread of the Month#A dictionary of the Book of Mormon. Anyone who would be willing to help in this is encouraged to indicate as much there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Melbourne Australia Temple

Hello. Would anyone be interested in improving Melbourne Australia Temple with inlined references? Also, the address would be good. I may be able to take more pictures of the grounds. Please reply on my talkpage if interested. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 02:00, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

LDS Notability Guidelines

Does this group have any notability guidelines? It seems there's been a lot of back and forth recently regarding the notability of Seventies. I suggest the adoption of guidelines similar to the guidelines for the Catholic Church. That said, I don't think the guidelines for the Catholic Church are binding, but if the guidelines genuinely reflect Wikipedia's rules for notability, then there would be less debate about which people qualify and which don't. Just a thought. Vojen (talk) 23:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Goodbye and Hello

Longtime stable editors that have edited topics related to this WikiProject using 208.81.184.4 (talk · contribs) have been migrated (by our benevolent corporate overlords) to now use 155.95.80.242 (talk · contribs). -- 155.95.80.242 (talk) 00:20, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Some discussion on this topic has been moved to User talk:155.95.80.242#Goodbye and Hello, as that is a better location for the discussion.-- 155.95.80.242 (talk) 16:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

New article: William Henry Chamberlin (philosopher)

Hi all,

I've recently started an article on William Henry Chamberlin (philosopher), an LDS scholar and theologian involved in a controversial period of BYU history. However, I am not very familiar with theology, philosophy, or even the LDS movement, and would welcome any additions or improvements in the aim of creating a comprehensive biography that clearly explains the philosophical contributions of Chamberlin, and fairly describes the controversy. Cheers, --Animalparty-- (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Former Latter Day Saints

I'm interested in how to clarify List of former Latter Day Saints. Input is welcome over at Talk:List of former Latter Day Saints#Restart: Criteria for inclusion. ——Rich jj (talk) 14:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Portal badges

I just noticed the following edits[1][2] which affixed to various articles the badges for Portal:Latter-day Saints and Portal:Book of Mormon. I disagree with some of these:

Not related to the Book of Mormon:

• Pioneer Day (Utah)
• The Last Leaf
• Mr. Krueger's Christmas
• The Phone Call
• The Mailbox (film)
• Cipher in the Snow
• Pioneers in Petticoats
• The Windows of Heaven (film)
• The Search for Truth
• List of Latter Day Saint periodicals
• Latter-day Trumpet
• Beehive Standard Weekly

Only marginally related to the Book of Mormon (may occasionally discuss BOM, though not predominantly):

• On the Way Home (film)
• Together Forever (film)
• Man's Search for Happiness
• Interpreter (journal)
• International Journal of Mormon Studies
• Sunstone (magazine)
• Dialogue (journal)
• Gospel Reflector
• Mormon Studies Review
• BYU Studies Quarterly
• Church News
• The Contributor (LDS magazine)
• Woman's Exponent
• Journal of Discourses
• The Seer (periodical)
• Deseret News
• Nauvoo Neighbor
• The Wasp (newspaper)
• The Instructor
• Relief Society Magazine
• Juvenile Instructor
• Improvement Era
• Young Woman's Journal
• The Prophet (newspaper)
• Millennial Star
• Times and Seasons
• Elders' Journal
• Messenger and Advocate
• The Evening and the Morning Star

Plus these edits to the LDS template are related: [3][4]

And this Christian music quote (used on Portal:Christian music) was changed for the first time in 2 years to Praise to the Man. Probably not what they had in mind.

Is this mischief? I may jump in and undo all this, but just in case I'm wrong I'm posting here. ——Rich jj (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I now see that ‎ARTEST4ECHO is already reverting these. ——Rich jj (talk) 15:31, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't attribute mischief when it's easier to recognize a less than well thought-out series of edits from a well intentioned editor. I also reverted several of these. -- 155.95.80.241 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Cool. But why did you restore the BoM portal to The Windows of Heaven, especially since the central scripture in that film is from the Old Testament? — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 19:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't: I restored portal:Latter-day Saints which is a separate portal all together than portal:Book of Mormon. -- 155.95.80.241 (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm not the only person reverting these. I think it was a good faith edit by an IP editor, but I agree they are not appropriate usesage of the articles the badges. -- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 19:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that I should Assume Good Faith. I think the Praise to the Man quote threw me off, since general Christian music isn't particularly known for its praise of Joseph Smith. But in reflection I can even see how that could be in good faith.
Incidentally, the LDS template was taken back to the BOM and LDS badges. Is that desirable to have both relevant portals inserted into the footer, or to use the previous USVA headstone image? ——Rich jj (talk) 20:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Either image is fine with me, but I don't think the BoM portal should be in the template. Yes, the BoM is central to LDS beliefs, but the BoM portal tag doesn't belong on every LDS page, or in the LDS template. Do we include the Holy Bible portal on every article on Christianity? And if we include the BoM portal, should we include the D&C portal and the PoGP portal tags as well (if they exist)? The BoM portal tag should only be included where it is pertinent, and not every article on LDS movement is BoM centric. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 13:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll revert it back to the way it was before July 27, with a link in the talk back here. The recent change has been supported by two different IPs [5][6], so I'm concerned that this change may have been decided somewhere that I haven't seen. ——Rich jj (talk) 15:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I've already reverted it back: the VA symbol of the Angel Moroni works better visually at the smaller size. I also think it is actually more representative than Thorvaldsen's Christus, which isn't inherently Mormon. -- 155.95.80.241 (talk) 15:26, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The Mailbox (film)

Members of this WikiProject and other interested parties may note that an Article for Deletion entry has been created for The Mailbox (film). -- 155.95.80.241 (talk) 17:36, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Articles categorized as templates

Can someone look at an article like Quetzaltenango Guatemala Temple, among others, that are showing up in Category:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement temple templates? These are articles and not templates. Thanks.Vegaswikian (talk) 19:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

They are actually both articles and templates. For example, if you go to the Wiki search engine at the top right of the screen and type in, let us say, Template: LDS Temple\Quetzaltenenango Guatemala Temple, that will take you to the template specific to the Quetzaltenango Guatemala Temple, which has all the information you will see about that temple when you go to List of temples of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, go to dedicated 2010s, and look at #135. So it's both. Does that make sense? I hope so. If not, let me know and I will try again. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Letter to a CES Director for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Letter to a CES Director is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Letter to a CES Director until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Eustress (talk • contribs)

Mormon Youth Symphony and Chorus

If anyone has reliable sources to add to Mormon Youth Symphony and Chorus, please help by adding them. It's been tagged for notability for over six years now. Thanks, Boleyn (talk) 07:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Official Auxiliary Titles

Up until recently the titles for the LDS General Relief society and Young Women and other Axillary were standardized across the leaders. Such as "XXth General President of the Relief Society" and "Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society". However recently User:ChristensenMJ has been changing them to titles such as 15th Relief Society General President.

I understand his desire. The LDS church often refers to them in both formats, however, I am under the impression that "General President of the Relief Society" and "Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" are the official and correct way of doing this. So my question is, shouldn't "XXth General President of the Relief Society" and "First/Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" be the standardized across the board title, so that all pages use the same official LDS title in the infobox.--- ARTEST4ECHO ^(talk) 17:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, not only for initiating the discussion but for all your efforts across WP. I agree completely with efforts to standardize, or provide consistency, across the info or succession boxes. This is what I have been trying to do as I saw a number of edits being made or boxes added. You are right that there are several different usages employed when identifying the assignments/titles. I disagree that the manner of identification provided above is the official way. When providing a source, if one were to view the church's website for a leader's profile (Linda K. Burton) or a talk associated with General Conference/General Women's Meeting (Bonnie L. Oscarson), those sources each use "Young Women General President" and so forth. The auxiliary counselors are not as standardized (in print) and in that instance I think it becomes as much about being succinct or providing ease of reading. To show "Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" can be more direct by showing something such as "XX Counselor, Relief Society General Presidency" or "XX Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency" (with the latter being consistent with the leader profiles or conference-related addresses noted previously). So, those are my thoughts and rationale toward the recent edits. ChristensenMJ (talk) 22:23, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Coming a little late to this discussion, but wanted to put my two cents in. I am basing my comments and thus my opinion on what we should do upon what I observed in the most recent General Conference Ensign and on what I've observed on the Church website. From the Ensign, on page 15, a talk by Linda S. Reeves introduces her as "Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency". On page 56, a talk by Randall L. Ridd introduces him as "Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency." On page 81, a talk by Jean A. Stevens introduces her as "First Counselor in the Primary General Presidency." Talks in the General Women's Meeting introduce each speaker as "[Auxiliary] General President." Tad R. Callister's biography on page 143 introduces him as "Sunday School General President" and the subsequent page introduces his counselors as "First/Second Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency." The biographies for these leaders are much the same. The presidents are referred to as "[Auxiliary] General President" while the counselors are referred to as "First/Second Counselor in the [Auxiliary] Presidency." Since that is the preferred method the Church uses, that should be our method as well. At least, that's my opinion. Other thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 07:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page to add my two cents here. The ordinal numbers in something like "15th Relief Society General President" are descriptive text, and not part of any official title. The LDS Church doesn't use regnal numbers, or anything like that, within official titles to indicate order of historical succession within any particular position. There are however ordinals used in titles that do not indicate historical succession, but instead a form of rank/position/differentiation in the church hierarchy at any one point in time; e.g.: "First Elder" for the President of the Church & "Second Elder" for the Assistant President of the Church (though that usage was discontinued after the death of Joseph and Hyrum); 1st and 2nd Counselors (etc...) in various presidencies; 1st and 2nd Quorums (etc...) of the Seventies. Even at a local level, if there are enough young men to require more one Deacons quorum in a ward, there is a 1st Deacons quorum, 2nd Deacons quorum (etc...). This is the only way I'm aware of that the LDS Church actually uses ordinal numbers in official titles; unfortunately I do not currently have a ref that independently proves this observation. ^—Asterisk*^Splat→ 16:11, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that is really what we are talking about here. It's not the numbering that is at issue. As far as I've seen, when referring to the 1st and 2nd Councilor of an Auxiliary, it's official title is (Using the Relief Society as an example), First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency, not Relief Society First Counselor. The issues is which form is correct.--- ARTEST4ECHO ^(talk) 19:16, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Correct, numbering is not at issue in this discussion. The issue raised also needs to be kept consistent. In the opening comments for this section, an example such as "First/Second Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society" was given as the official way, but the comment above then shows the example as "First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency." Use of "Relief Society First Counselor" noted in the same comment has not been suggested or used. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for misunderstanding what was being asked. The LDS Church's official webpages about General Auxiliaries leadership positions currently list the titles as follows:

• Relief Society General President[7]
• First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency[8]
• Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency[9]
• Young Women General President[10]
• First Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency[11]
• Second Counselor in the Young Women General Presidency[12]
• Primary General President[13]
• First Counselor in the Primary General Presidency[14]
• Second Counselor in the Primary General Presidency[15]
• Sunday School General President[16]
• First Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency[17]
• Second Counselor in the Sunday School General Presidency[18]
• Young Men General President[19]
• First Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency[20]
• Second Counselor in the Young Men General Presidency[21]

I'll have to look at other resources to see if there is consistency to this naming convention in secondary sources. ^—Asterisk*^Splat→ 22:21, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree with those who have suggested that probably the closest thing to formal titles are "General President of the Relief Society" and "1st/2nd Counselor in the general presidency of the Relief Society". I agree would should have consistency across infoboxes etc. for presidency members across all the auxiliaries. As far as I can see, there have been some slight deviations from these standard usages (such as the "First Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency"), but these seem minor and relatively unimportant to me. I doubt that there is an actual "official" title for the counselors that the church has adopted, but I think it's fine if we want to adopt a convention for them for Wikipedia naming purposes. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:49, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• As I stated before, the Church has a particular naming convention (as capably outlined above by AsteriskStarSplat, and that should be the guideline we should follow. ie: [Auxiliary] General President and First/Second Counselor in the [Auxiliary] General Presidency. Any other conventions should be ignored, because that's not the way the Church does it. The sources available bear this out. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:32, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • We don't absolutely have to follow conventions that the LDS Church establishes or prefers. For instance, if secondary sources consistently used a different format, it would make more sense from a Wikipedia standpoint to use what the secondary sources always use. In these cases of the varying titles, the differences are slight—it's really just a difference of word placement—and I can't imagine that it will make a big difference which approach was adopted. (The difference in "General President of the RS" and "RS General President" is essentially equivalent to the difference between "President of the Church" and "Church President". I see nothing wrong with any of these four.) I'd prefer to use whatever is commonest in the secondary sources. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

And that is...what, exactly? I'm not sure what you're proposing. Thanks for clarifying. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't really explicitly propose anything. My overall point is that the differences are so slight that I don't think it matters much which format is selected. But I was kind of awaiting AsteriskStarSplat's survey of secondary sources, since it sounded like he was going to do that eventually. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 07:42, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense. I guess we await for his survey of secondary sources, then? --Jgstokes (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

That's going to take me a a few days; definitely will not be today. ^—Asterisk*^Splat→ 00:55, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Take your time. No need to feel rushed or anything. At the end of the day, it's not a pressing issue that needs immediate attention. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:36, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Jmheer's edits on Mormon cosmology.

In looking over the Mormon cosmology Wikipedia page, I noticed that several edits had been done by a new user named Jmheer. These edits appear to have been well thought out and all explained, but I always worry when a newbie editor makes a series of changes to a single page. It's as if a warning light goes off in my head and my automatic inclination is to revert the page back to where it was before such edits were made. I don't want to do so, however, if all the edits are considered necessary and helpful. So I thought I'd raise the issue for discussion here, then act or not based upon whatever the consensus decides. Mentioning this user by name in this topic will give him/her a chance to come here and defend his/her edits. What worries me is that many of them were tagged with the getting started template thingy that most new users are introduced to. And I don't know if his/her explanations are sufficient. So I wanted to post here and discuss it. Am I being overly protective of the page and unjustly suspicious of this new editor? Or am I justified in feeling this way? Please be honest. I prefer a well-intentioned truth to a kind lie any day of the week. What do you say, fellow Wikipedians? Thanks in advance for discussing this. --Jgstokes (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. They look generally OK to me, though the references provided are not ideal, since they are scriptures (primary sources) rather than secondary sources. But I suppose having those references is better than having no reference at all. Apart from the references, the only content added was the statement, "The earth that God the Father dwelt on as a mortal was not, however, created by Jehovah or subject to his atonement, but existed previously." It's uncited, but I have no objection to it being added as I think such a statement would be uncontroversial to most Mormons doctrinally, however esoteric and removed from everyday religious consideration the topic might be. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I trust your judgment. As long as they look all right to you, as far as I'm concerned, they can remain. I just was a little troubled that a new editor was adding new material without explaining it as thoroughly as he should, and I wondered if the sources cited were all right. Unless anyone has any strenuous objections to this edit, I will consider this matter honorably closed. (Btw, sorry about forgetting to sign my comment above. Added a proper signature to it just barely, but it makes the comments appear out of sync.) --Jgstokes (talk) 03:54, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Here is a little essay I have found helpful in dealing with newcomers. ~Adjwilley (talk) 05:55, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Adjwilley. That was most helpful and informative. I had to cringe at some of the things the article warns against, though, as I have been guilty of some of them in my interactions with newcomers. I will try to remember what I've learned from that article. Thanks again for pointing me to it!--Jgstokes (talk) 06:28, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I tend to reject such statements as you cited above as opinion and having nothing to do with official doctrine of the Church. The entire concept of God having a mortal existence is not well understood and not part of official doctrine for that reason. Gordon B. Hinckley even said he did not think it was taught in the Church. This is not to say that individuals do not offer opinions on the subject or attempt to do so. It is something that I would delete until such time as an editor gave an official reference identifying it as doctrine, which does not exist to my knowledge. --^StormRider 08:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)