Talk:Kosovo

According to CIA Factbook, Population

Ethnic groups: Albanians 92%, other (Serb, Bosniak, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Ashkali, Egyptian) 8% (2008) [3] --12:45, 27 November 2011

Kosovo's third official language\

Kosovo's third official language is English. On the page only Albanian and Serbian is shown as official language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memedhe (talk • contribs) 20:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you have an official source for this? Bazonka (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Article 5 of the constitution: "The official languages in the Republic of Kosovo are Albanian and Serbian." bobrayner (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

And bullet 2: "2. Turkish, Bosnian and Roma languages have the status of official languages at the municipal level or will be in official use at all levels as provided by law. " Stevetauber (talk) 22:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Every document in Kosovo is written all three languages. ID card, Passport, bills etc. Road names, company info is written in all 3 languages, warning signs etc. You can register your company in all three forms Sh.p.k , OLK, LLC etc. all goverment sites are written in three languages etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Memedhe (talk • contribs) 22:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The officialdom of language lies within a constitution or statute. In light of the fact that there is no permanent significant English speaking population in Kosovo there is little chance of it being named, just as it has no local population to serve. From having lived in Greece for 22 years of my life, I recall 99% of road signs and documents being published in Greek and English (including my driving licence since that is where I passed back in 1987) but this is more for international-friendly circumstmaces (Greek on top in yellow, then English in white to avoid all confusion), just as the pilot on the plane speaks in English when telling the cabin crew to take their seats for landing, even if the operator is Montenegro Airlines. In Europe you'll find English is only official in Malta. --Vrhunski (talk) 19:20, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

British Passports are also in French as well as English, it doesn't mean that French is an official language of the UK. English is used in Kosovo at International level and Business level because the English language is an international and business language, not because it is an official language of Kosovo. IJA (talk) 23:08, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2015

Author-editor recommends addition to sources of internationally recognized balanced work with translated essays from all sides.

• Buckley, William Joseph, ed. (2000) Kosovo: Contending Voices on Balkan Interventions Grand Rapids/Cambridge: Eerdmans.

Tarzan155 (talk) 00:38, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 03:03, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Redundant note

Somebody just tried to add that boilerplate Kosovo-note to the article. People, I'm sure we've discussed this before, that template is obviously only for other articles that deal with Kosovo in passing, not this main article. Everything that note does is already said right at the top of the article lead. Besides, it wasn't even used properly; there was no "status" text anchor that linked to it, so it was technically quite useless too. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:09, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; it's redundant. However, there are still a few redundant transclusions of that template on other pages, which have been left behind since its biggest fan stopped editing. bobrayner (talk) 21:58, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Kudos

I was doing some research for my job, which included learning more about the history of Kosovo from the breakup of Yugoslavia to present. I found this article to be quite well-written and informative. I just wanted to congratulate those you who have worked hard on the article, including resolving disputes, and to tell you that your sustained efforts are appreciated. Good job! -- Mark D Worthen PsyD 21:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Categorisation

Reliable sources (example) say that Kosovo is a country in Europe. We shouldn't even need to worry about sourcing for such an obvious statement. Why, then, do some editors insist on removing Category:Countries in Europe? Eventually, articles on Kosovo will be brought in line with what reliable sources say, but FkpCascais' reverts make this a very slow and difficult process. bobrayner (talk) 18:40, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

• Kosovo is i) a country (government, territory, armed forces, institutions, etc ...) , ii) geographically located in Europe, ii) recognized as a country by 82% of the European Union countries and iii) recognized by 56% of UN countries . The lack of recognition by some countries does not undo the existence. Do China, Israel or Taiwan not exist, because some countries do not recognize them? Let us get serious. Bottom line: Kosovo exists as a country (by all criteria of the definition) and is a reality. 95.90.184.124 (talk)

• It seems like some people feel that being diplomatically recognised by every other country in the world is a prerequisite for being defined as a country, but it's not so. If it was neither the People's Republic of China, the Republic of China (Taiwan) or Israel would be countries. Kosovo is a sovereign state by all normal definitions of it, and thus a country, whether some people like it or not. So I strongly suggest FkpCascais, now blocked user Muffi and everyone else who is removing the category and all mention of Kosovo being a country stop their reverts. Thomas.W ^talk 20:47, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Build wider consensus first, threaten users later. I suggest that. FkpCascais (talk) 20:52, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Saying current Kosovo is sovereign is challenging per se (is there a consensus from the past to include the link sovereign state in the lead of this article that I missed?). Also, comparing Kosovo, which is considered independent roughly just by half countries of the world, and still territory of Serbia by other half, is far from being comparable to the mentioned cases of Israel, PR China or Taiwan. FkpCascais (talk) 21:06, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

We need to keep a NPOV on this subject. So basically, by this argumentation, would you gentleman oppose adding as well the Category:Statistical regions of Serbia, Category:Historical regions in Serbia and Category:Autonomous regions? Perhaps also Category:Autonomous provinces of Serbia? FkpCascais (talk) 21:15, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

And WP:NPOV starts by saying "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.". I personally don't give a rat's arse about whether the country-category or other mention of Kosovo having the status as a country is in the article or not, but reliable sources regard Kosovo as a country, which is what matters. So since many reliable sources regard Kosovo as a country, and a large number of countries, particularly in Europe where Kosovo is situated, have recognised Kosovo as a sovereign country, you and the others cannot remove all mention of it, without violating WP:NPOV. Period. Thomas.W ^talk 22:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't give an arse about European countries neither your "period", understand sir? So while you don't show a willingness to fairly archive consensus, the clearly tendentious category will be removed. Period. FkpCascais (talk) 01:36, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Here are two sources saying it is a province: Until 2008 the province was administered by the UN (it finished the text also talking about the "province"), and we have In 2007, the UN issued the Ahtisaari Plan, which suggested "supervised independence" for the province. ... I can go on... There are clearly diffenrent views on this subject, so your agressivness is useless, cause this is a clear case where WP:UNDUE applies. So if you getleman want to include that much one point of view (of the independence), so some of the other categories I mentioned in my earlier comment should be added as well. It is up to you gentleman. FkpCascais (talk) 01:50, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Roughly half of world doesn't recognise the independence of Kosovo and still regards it as Serbian province under UN/interim administration, so in order to archive neutrality over this issue, we must either present both sides, or be careful and only present the undisputed facts. If the countries are European, I see no connection to it, I honestly didn't understand that argument. FkpCascais (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

A lot of reliable sources say also that Kosovo is not a country in Europe. You cannot just ignore some sources that you dont like. Kosovo is disputed, its not even a UN member, and it must be treated like that. You must be neutral here, everyone. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 11:59, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

To everybody, there are numerous as yet unmentioned problems with the category for countries in Europe. I will address those specified in the summaries.

• One states in its first part: Regardless if a country is partially recognised or not, it is still a country. This is in tune to arguments posted above stating that Kosovo meets all the criteria to be sovereign regardless who does not recognise. I confess that to these points I cannot comment, however, if that is correct then the category should also include Lugansk People's Republic, Donetsk People's Republic, the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, and if you define them as Europe, South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
• Then the same summary mentions: for example Cyprus or Armenia which both lack recognition. I am sorry but there is absolutely no way in this world Kosovo can be considered similar to Cyprus or Armenia. I would question any editor's WP:COMPETENCE if he cannot distinguish between states that do not have diplomatic relations with others, and states whose sovereignty is disputed. No country refuses to recognise Armenia or Cyprus as a result of either being a breakaway from the state in question, they are merely examples of states involved in internal territorial disputes. If an entity exists with which we can realistically compare the Republic of Kosovo then this would be the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (which lacks a "countries in" listing). Kosovo has fewer diplomatic recognitions than the State of Palestine which stands at 135, yet this too has no "countries in" listing, and therefore Republic of Kosovo has no special status over any other unrecognised territory.
• Another summary is: can't we just follow the sources? http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/kosovo/overview. The World Bank is an institution that happens to recognise the Republic of Kosovo. It is not a paragon of irrefutable reference to what makes a country or not. Besides, the job of an editor is to identify neutral positions in disputes, and having any disputed territory in a "countries in" category violates WP:NPOV. Its absence is by no means an indication that it is recognised as being within the state to claim it. For what it is worth, the State of Palestine is eligible to become a member of the World Bank. Also, when the original editor added the category, he was not going by that source, so it is not a case of following the World Bank website.
• Kosovo is already listed in List of territorial disputes. I have checked several left-hand side entries and no other state has a "countries in" category and this includes Taiwan which is the article for Republic of China, itself having once stood on the UN Security Council. So unless I have missed something, I see no special reason Kosovo outranks the states listed in this post. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 16:11, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe; this article belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it's not rocket science. bobrayner (talk) 22:19, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Although if Oranges Juicy genuinely wants to be consistent, I would point out that other entries in List of territorial disputes generally don't have their own equivalent of {{Kosovo-note}} spammed across hundreds of pages. Oranges Juicy, will you get rid of that too? bobrayner (talk) 22:22, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Those entries are actually not presented in the artices as independent nations in the way your edits tend to be, and that was the reason in first pleace the note was established. However, I will be happy if we rid the Kosovo-note template and return to Serbia/Kosovo formula if you wish. FkpCascais (talk) 23:10, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm lost. What do you mean by {{Kosovo-note}} being "spammed" across hundreds of pages? If it is spam, shouldn't somebody WP:PROD it? If not then perhaps someone more experienced should tell me exactly where the note should and should not be used. Not very long ago I asked an admin but received no response. Anywhere it stands but does not belong I believe we are free to remove it (such as here), and yes I have found it in several places and have even added it, or repaired the link to it when its foundation was already in place such as here. If I am "spamming" I would like this to be explained to me. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

PS. Although no note appears to exist for the other disputed territories, I see the matter is addressed in main space, for instance Ahmed Mohamed Mohamoud (Mohamoud is the current President of Somaliland, a self-declared republic that is internationally recognised as an autonomous region of Somalia.) and President of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (The President of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is the head of state of the self-proclaimed Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (SADR), an exile government based in the refugee camps of Tindouf, Algeria.) to give two examples. So even there editors need to be cautious. On that note I cannot see a way out of this one, either the irritating note has to be in place or we'll have to exercise our fingers and type more. Unless someone knows the solution! --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe; this article belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it's not rocket science. bobrayner (talk) 14:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
• Reliable sources say that Kosovo is not a country in Europe; this article does not belongs in the "Countries in Europe" category; it is really that simple, i agree. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 14:23, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I hope that now you will understand that what you think is not a fact, but only your own opinion. We have sources for both thing. --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 14:24, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Anastan, you have never provided any such source. If you want people to believe you, now would be a good time to provide a source that supports your claims. bobrayner (talk) 15:05, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Anastan, if you followed the thread then that last post to which you replied should have given you a sense of déjà vu. So let me make this response shorter and simpler. Reliable sources also say that it disputed, and disputed territories are treated differently throughout. Of course, if there is something that makes Republic of Kosovo different from Somaliland (see "reliable source"), then please share this with us. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 14:29, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Until there's no longer a dispute over Kosovo's status either way, it shouldn't be placed in the category-in-question. GoodDay (talk) 15:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

• This is tendentious editing. Oranges Juicy cites a source which treats Somaliland as a country, yet somehow twists logic into arguing that the source means we can't categorise a different country. I look forward to uninvolved editors' comments. bobrayner (talk) 15:08, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Oranges Juicy hit the nail on the head with his first comment. You just keep repeating the same line that has already been addressed and even brought up the Kosovo-note which is entirely unrelated to this specific categorisation; if you want to discuss that, start a new discussion.

GoodDay provided an uninvolved editor's comment and now so have I. --Local hero ^talk 15:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

FTR. I very much doubt there is a source that bluntly states "Kosovo is not a country", but the same can be said of all of self-proclaimed states which takes us back to square 1. Concerning Somaliland, sorry if I did not make myself clear but I was not editing tendentiously, I was simply giving an example of how a reliable publisher can refer even to a territory that nobody recognises as a country. For what it's worth I am in no way implying that Somaliland be treated as a sovereign entity and anybody following my edits will have seen that I have even taken exception to its inclusion in a certain list because it has received no diplomatic recognition, ([4]). --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Oranges Juicy, please note that the questions you posed on that list's talk page could well be construed as WP:FORUMSHOPPING since you didn't provide this context for the question, and that the list has just gone through a spate of edit warring (again), including RM's in order to change the name with the objective of 'broadening' its scope (roughly translated as WP:OR). Bringing responses here is misleading WP:SYNTH. I will assume good faith, but you appear to be inadvertently spreading it thin. This discussion is taking place here, on this talk page. The list is proscribed to meeting criteria appropriate to that list alone. Bear in mind, also, that WP:WINARS applies to separate articles. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Iryna (this is separate from the message I wrote to you at my talk). I can assure you that the two issues are individual and I would have edited one the same way as the other regardless. With regards Somaliland (off topic here I know), I am fine with its self-proclaimed status and seeing it treated the same as Kosovo and Western Sahara but in having had no recognitions, I didn't believe it belonged on that article and therefore have proposed either the removal of states with no recognition, or switching article title for clarity. Obviously if that discussion should develop then I will happily cite this talk thread, so far I have found no need. I shall courteously alert involved editors to prove I am not intentionally forum-shaping. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, Oranges Juicy. For the record, as a neutral party, I would like to note that I "!oppose" including Kosovo in the European countries category per WP:NPOV. While I realise that there are arguments on a case to case basis, for the sake of parity across the board, being designated implied sovereign status would demand a review of all break-away states being included in the same category. Unless there is an extraordinarily compelling case for being depicted as a recognised sovereign state, I don't see how we can cherry pick which states of limited recognition should be treated differently. Such decisions could only serve to encourage further subjective pushes, so are we actually following RS or OR? As an encyclopaedic resource, I'd suggest that it isn't up to editors/contributors to make calls that only tertiary sources can.

That being said, however, 100+ sovereign nation-states and a plethora of RS attesting to recognition of Kosovo as being a country in Europe are very compelling arguments therefore, per WP:NPOV I, personally, would be so reticent to remove it from the category that I'd find myself having to "!oppose" its removal. Evaluating the arguments on a case by case basis suggests that, in this case, 'limited recognition' does not apply as being as being as extremely limited as other parallel cases presented here. In that manner, distinguishing between borderline or truly limited recognition doesn't factor into the equation as other states with limited recognition can't even begin to aspire to compete with Kosovo. It would be WP:OR to proscribe is and isn't in such a manner. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

If I could analyse the following comment: 100+ sovereign nation-states and a plethora of RS attesting to recognition of Kosovo as being a country in Europe are very compelling arguments. Well it is an argument, but not that compelling. Without doubt any entity to have recognised Kosovo will unquestionably call it a country, and this in turn will influence "reliable sources". As far as the remaining states are concerned, plus in their relevant media, Kosovo and Metohija is an autonomous Serbian province. The matter here is not the limited recognition but the disputed status, and not just disputed by one country but a good 50-60 who are likely never to recognise Kosovo unless Serbia does first. So this brings us back to the other unrecognised entities, and the one most deserving of any country status is Palestine. Unfortunately there is no middle road with these problems, either a subject does or does not appear on a category, and if it does, there is no way the all-important disputed status can be shown. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 23:55, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Oranges Juicy: Quite. I actually agree with your evaluation. While playing at devil's advocate in the second instance, I'm predisposed to the inclusion of Kosovo in the European countries cat as being OR as I don't see NPOV as actually being the brunt of the issue. My preference would probably be to hold an RfC with regards to the inclusion, but an RfC would bring in neutral, but uninformed, editors/contributors (i.e., POV opinion regardless of GF). As the category is representative of recognised European countries, I would prefer to err on the side of caution, with Kosovo as being a subcat of Serbia. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Irina, you just said what I tried to say in a bit rudimental way in the beginning of this discussion. Since this is such a 50-50 case, representing one POV, which was bobrainers intention by wanting to add that cat, would make us necessarily have to represent the other POV as well. So we can chose going into two ways, one would be to be wise and cautious and only represent acknowledged undisputed facts, and the other would be to represent both views (meaning, adding "country in Europe" cat and "Serbian province" cats). I always defend the option of caution, but editors obviously well informed about the subject but pretending not to know the complexity of the issue make me kind of loose my good faith assumption and treat them like POV-pushers. FkpCascais (talk) 02:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

To feature them in both categories would satisfy NPOV but is blatantly self-contradictory and would create confusion for readers less knowledgeable that happen to stumble across the category pages first. The question of reliable sources calling Kosovo a country is at best clutching at straws to make the desperate point. Irina's argument that 100+ countries recognise is definitely a valid point. Obviously there is no threshold and everything works case by case. On this note she is right that we who have discussed here and at the noticeboard have largely exhausted our points and maybe the whole matter should be placed in the hands of a fresh set of contributors whose areas of interest lie outside Balkan politics. If WP policy should ever state that once recognition reaches the half-way mark with regards all declared states (even those unrecognised, as they still afford recognitions), it won't just be admitting Kosovo to Countries in Europe, but its rewording in the article opening line, its shift within lists to sovereign tables, and the likely removal of the note which features on a number of articles. All I would say here - to any onlooker - is that where Kosovo should go, it would be commendable and wise to take Western Sahara and State of Palestine down the same route. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 12:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@FkpCascais and Oranges Juicy: Well, we've now allowed for this discussion to sit around to the point of stagnation, and no other contributors/editors have joined in, nor has anything been established other than Kosovo still featuring at the top level of European countries. As this is ultimately a categories issue it really can't feature as a top level category and a subcat. This is a category issue which should be referred to the WP:CFD. If it is deemed to be NPOV to enter Kosovo as belonging to both categories, those who predominantly work on cats will end up removing a subcat as being superfluous unless they've actually been involved in the discussion and know what the issues are. It would also allow for fresh, neutral evaluation by experienced Wikipedians. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:33, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

You know the procedure at this stage far better than I do, so by all means go ahead with the necessary arrangements. I will observe whatever the next set of editors decide. I just hope they read the entire discussion here and at the noticeboard, it is long and repetitive I know, but many interesting points are raised. Thanks Iryna. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 17:50, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Both categories seem fair to me. IJA (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Putting it in both categories is not ideal, since it's a return to the bad old days where we present reality and nationalist fiction side-by-side even when they're mutually incompatible. However, I'm concerned about a couple of things:

• FkpCascais removed the category, pretending that it was just something that I personally wanted to add. That is not true; this article has been in the category since 2008.
• Anastan repeatedly claimed to have reliable sources saying that Kosovo isn't a country in Europe. Anastan has refused to provide those sources.

Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe. I recognise that there are several active editors who hold political views which are incompatible with what reliable sources say; sooner or later they will stop reverting, and the rest of us can start repairing articles. bobrayner (talk) 19:35, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Interesting how you consider everything related to assumed independence of Kosovo a reality and the other view as nationalist fiction. You said it all now regarding your inability to deal with this subject objectively. FkpCascais (talk) 19:48, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Reliable sources say that Kosovo is a country in Europe. If your political beliefs are incompatible with what reliable sources say, you have my sympathies, but I would urge you to self-revert tendentious edits like this - removing a category that's been in the article since 2008, with the excuse that it's "under discussion". bobrayner (talk) 19:54, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh poor of me, I am some lunatic with crazy political beliefs... Recognising the complexity of this issue doesn't make me any of that. If Kosovo is a country in Europe (view shared by half world) then it is also a region of Serbia (view shared by other half of world). Not my fault half a world doesn't deal with Kosovo the wa you would like them to do. Category: Disputed territorial and partially recognized states is quite neutral and is already there. FkpCascais (talk) 20:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

The whole point of this conversation is precisely because this is a deeper issue than "reliable sources say Kosovo is a country in Europe". In the first place those are not reliable sources, they are websites of institutions that recognise Kosovo. In the second place, a simple caption from a "reliable source" is in this case grossly WP:UNDUE and an attempt to WP:GAME the system by ignoring the fact that this is a disputed area. No matter even what real reliable sources report, this is about presentation and not the disputing of a fact, and presentation is down to consensus. If Kosovo sits outside of this category, one does not imply that this makes it a province or prefecture or oblast of some other country, not at all, the other categories and the article itself show that Kosovo is among a big group of self-proclaimed states and one that has achieved considerably more success than the vast majority. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 21:25, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

For the record, the category has not featured since 2008, I have gone back as far as this revision which clearly shows the categories as given at the time, nothing remotely suggesting undisputed sovereignty. The category was added in September 2014 and has been the subject of debate since its first removal on 19 May 2015. Curiously, the editor to originally insert the segment had this to say on the matter when I courteously briefed him that I removed it. This is all a departure from the concept that the category was added because of what "reliable sources" are printing. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, this has become awkward, hasn't it. I'm now wary of taking it to CfD without referencing this discussion, but to do so would also be seen as FORUMSHOPPING as I'm now involved. Does anyone think this is worth taking to the WP:DRN and, if so, which editors would be willing to be involved? I'm not sure that I'm even uninvolved enough by this point to write up a decent submission, but would be willing to take a stab at it if there are enough editors with conflicting understandings of what the NPOV approach would be are willing to participate. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The move request

We had a very drawn-out, noteworthy move request which brought the article Republic of Kosovo here. This article is about the country. Period. Kosovo is a "region" in the same way that Denmark is a "region", but Denmark's lead sentence doesn't include that word for the same reason that Kosovo's should not. Red Slash 03:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not concerned about WP:WINARS decisions (i.e., this is circular self-referencing as in one decision about WP:TITLE sets the momentum for the tone of the rest of the article). We also have an article which was moved from several other naming conventions in order to create Novorossiya (confederation). Please explain how that makes it realistic enough to impact on whether it is a sovereign country for the top level category or, worse yet, a candidate for the top level and a subcat for Serbia? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:57, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello Red Slash. As you'll appreciate, I have no issues with number of articles and whether Kosovo as a region and as a republic should take separate articles. I assume that is more down to how much there is to say for one, how much for the other, and whether keeping them on one article really is long and bouncing between one topic and another throughout. All I need to point out is that even if this article's primary subject is the Republic, it would still need to be shown per NPOV that the status is disputed, therefore the mention of "disputed territory" early on and the exclusion of a countries category is consistent with all other self-proclaimed entities. The sovereignty of Denmark is not disputed by any nation. In my case, consistency is my main interest and not whether Kosovo should be treated as a subcat of Serbia. If consensus should be reached whereby the number of recognitions should rule Kosovo a top level entity then I am happy to observe that, but realising that this would apply to the State of Palestine, and possibly Western Sahara depending on the threshold. In addition, the lede would be reworded to be consistent with Denmark (a country), and the Kosovo entry would have to be shifted across numerous articles to reflect a top level presentation. I'd like to point out that despite the edits I made to the article, I truly have no opinion on the question of a threshold and if that figure should be 100 (to give an example), then fine, raise Kosovo and Palestine, leave out Western Sahara, and everything will be within a black and white framework. The one and only issue I would raise there is - now moving onto a new technicality - if or not recognition is limited to the UN. If so, we disclude Cook Islands, Taiwan and Sovereign Military Order, but if they should be included, then it should be realised that the remaining non-recognised states do not recognise Kosovo and this might on a new count bring the total number of potential recognitions slightly below the half-way mark. This is mere conjecture though on how others may wish to tackle the problem. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 10:21, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The article is about the province/country, as it is still disputed/unrecognized. The article lead clarifies the issue, bolding both "Kosovo" and "Republic of Kosovo".--Zoupan 10:50, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

By all definitions of the word "country", Kosovo is a "country". It has i) a very large international recognition (majority of UN countries), ii) a freely elected government, iii) defined borders and authority over most of its territory (army + police), iv) an independent state apparatus (hospitals, schools, institutions), etc... Attempts to oppose the creation of the state of Kosovo by Russia, Serbia and their Allies (China, Greece, etc ...) have failed, therefore I believe it is time for folks still supporting a Serbian-occupied Kosovo to give up. Kosovo already exists as a country, so creating a virtual reality in Wikipedia, as if Kosovo is not a country, only further damages the reputation of this Encyclopedia. Wikipedia is already terribly biased against Kosovo, I do not see a note under every Israel-related article stating that the country is "partially recognized"! So let us leave the people of Kosovo freely choose their status for themselves and accept their free will. Colonialism and external interventions which deny sovereignty to other nations are a pre-18-th century style. 95.90.184.124 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:40, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Well hello IP! Thanks for the observation. Yes Republic of Kosovo meets all the criteria for what defines sovereignty, and is included in List of sovereign states. The problem with going straight for top level listing is that this line of thought would admit every self-proclaimed entity into that list, and this includes Somaliland which has never been recognised by anybody. Per your description, they all have defined borders, many exercise authority over the entire proclaimed territory though all have control over part, and all have the parallel institutions. Though this could be said to have applied to Republic of Kosova in the 1990s. The matter of recognition is a stronger argument by all accounts and there is evidently no threshold, but there is a fundamental difference between Kosovo and Israel which goes beyond the number of countries to recognise Israel. Israel is unrecognised because some states refuse to establish diplomatic relations with her, not because Irsael is disputed by the entity from which she broke away. This was Mandatory Palestine which had been a British mandate. Although Palestinians originally felt they were entitled to the entire region, the State of Palestine only defines Gaza and the West Bank as its territory, so no entity in this world other than Israel lays claim to Tel Aviv, Netanya and Haifa. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:47, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Independence implicitly involves self-proclamation. This is a chicken-egg problem apparently, however many countries more or less self-proclaimed independence, often through painful liberation/indepence wars. Kosovo is special because happened the latest, nevertheless it is not a different country compared to others. 95.90.184.124 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 10:42, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly to every point raised. I'm just not sure about the relevance of Republic of Kosovo having been the latest example. There is one later than that and this is Crimea in 2014 but that as we know was short-lived, and transitional from the start: necessary to avoid the unlawful annexation of territory by one sovereign body from another. But I would have thought if anything that newcomers be placed at the back of the queue rather than be given special priority. That said I know this is not the issue. But on the subject of proclaimed independence, if Kosovo could be joined by at least Palestine and Western Sahara (not for Europe of course, but as Cat:countries-in-XXX) as well as any others (the more the merrier), then I would have no problem whatsoever with the category feature. I assure you of that. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 11:28, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

There are two approaches: i) Using an instance to generalize over other cases (constructive), and ii) using other cases against an instance (devil's advocate). In that aspect, I believe using other non-identical examples against Kosovo is counter-productive. That being said, I believe a constructive editor can be motivated by principles and their generalization towards very similar cases. Personally, I would strongly support you on the addition of Palestine to the list of countries in the relevant categories. As for Western Sahara, I am not an expert on the case and prefer to not provide an opinion. 95.90.184.124 (talk) 11:52, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

That's better than nothing of course. I intend to raise this conversation anyhow on other regional talk pages and I am sure that by the end, a more universal method will emerge. I have posted at Talk:Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic#Western Asian countries but that is by the by since that isn't even a disputed territory, it has been added for some strange reason. Obviously everything in the world of self-proclaimed states is unique to one's own case, so probably no two examples are exactly the same, least of all the one I provided because that by its own actions became defunct within days (so the category would be obsolete there). Essentially, everybody wishes for recognition and the chance to participate within the international community. Where recognition is the importance factor, Kosovo without doubt ranks very highly among disputed territories, and that is the strongest argument for its listing. Once there is more input from uninvolved editors (as is likely to happen), I shall respect the outcome. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 12:12, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I definitely understand the need for a unified standard on categorizations, however I believe your criteria is not the right direction. Being self-proclaimed is perfectly fine, since most countries have a self-proclaimed independence (incl. USA). In that perspective I do not think self-proclamation constitute a reasonable criterion. The only practical criteria I see are i) the country exists, i.e. has sovereignty, government, territory, independence, institutions, etc ... and ii) international recognition. Kosovo fulfills both criteria strongly, therefore I personally think it should be included in all relevant categories of countries without much further discussions. 95.90.184.124 (talk) 12:52, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Well this is why there is no consensus. Obviously with that line of thinking one automatically promotes other states alongside it. I don't think the first part ("sovereignty, government, territory, independence, institutions, etc") is relevant since parallel institutions are necessary in the first place to exist as part of any form of state. The question of how recognised must an entity be is one with no clear guidelines hence this debate. And to be honest, I haven't formed an opinion yet there. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:15, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment IP, however I'm sorry, but it isn't very constructive when one is building an encyclopaedia. We have to be neutral and go one what the references/ sources say and we have conflicting references/ sources. But back to the question at hand; I see no harm in having a category saying that Kosovo is a country in Europe (we have sources to back this up) and also there is no harm in having a category saying that Kosovo is a partially recognised state (we have sources to back this up too). Let's have both categories. Add a category saying that Kosovo is a disputed territory too if you want (we have sources to back this up as well). These are only fucking categories at the end of the day! IJA (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

IJA, your suggestions seem reasonable and reflect the truth. 1) Kosovo is a country and 2) It is partially recognized. I believe it should be included in all relevant lists of countries, given the right clarification of its status whenever necessary (necessary means not spamming the boiler-plate status note on every Kosovo-related article, including sports, food, etc ...). 95.90.184.124 (talk) 14:40, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Oranges Juicy, you've made some claims about categorisation which contradict what the article history says. They're not true. They're false. Would you like to redact them, or is this another line of argument that relies on fiction? bobrayner (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

World Bank source

Hello again Red Slash. Thanks for the citation you added from World Bank. I'd just like to point out that nobody has denied Kosovo's wide recognition or its membership in institutions that accept its proclaimed statehood. Though when providing the source, you removed the disputed territory mention. Acknowledgement of Kosovan statehood from a recognising organisation is not evidence of a non-existent territorial dispute. In fact, it is necessary for a population to declare their region independent in the first place for a territorial dispute to even emerge. I still favour a joint inclusion at top and middle level provided Kosovo does not stand alone over all other partial or unrecognised states. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:05, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I would be in favour of Red Slash. I believe that implanting the term "disputed territory" on the "very first sentence" of this country's introduction has an unnecessarily negative tendency. Furthermore, it is completely redundant because the second sentence already states "While Serbia recognises the Republic's governance of the territory, it still continues to claim it as its own Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija.". In addition, the introduction related to Kosovo is written in a politically-heated and unprofessional language. If one considers the first paragraph on pages of "Germany, USA, etc ..." the first paragraph tells the location, capital, weather, etc ... i.e. facts on the country that relate to general life aspects, not only politics. I recommend to remove any status related political words from the first paragraph, instead we should professionally write something real about the country. The status dispute is unnecessarily repeated in so many places of this article, that having it even on the first sentence suffocates the reader. 95.90.184.124 (talk) 14:54, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure that we should take your opinion as valid here at all, having in mind that you have 0 edits on wiki and day old editing history. Maybe you should go back to your original account... --Ąnαșταη (ταlκ) 14:58, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

@95.90.184.124. So far we have only discussed the category, though if I am to be realistic, should a wider consensus dictate that it becomes as you wish then indeed it would also change the opening line and how we treat Kosovo across other lists and articles. I see your point about wanting to downgrade the political connotations in order to bring the article to the same standard as Germany and the United States. The fact is however that Germany and the United States are not embroiled in any form of territorial dispute and if they had been, they too would have article ledes similar to Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. By presenting a regular first paragraph and introducing all controversy in the second is not only contrary to the criteria of a standard lede but an editor will feel justified in merging it the minute he notices, and that takes you back to the square one. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:15, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Wider consensus has already been reached by the 'majority' (108 or 56%) of UN nations and 82% of European Union states (the continent of this country). This case has not much similarity to the counter-case mentioned, which is recognized by ZERO UN countries. In case you infer consensus to mean 100% recognition by all other countries, I fear that this is not a must requirement, because, as said, neither China, nor Israel are recognized by 100% of other countries. Second, a vast number of other countries have territorial disputes (List of territorial disputes), so having a dispute is not an exclusion criterion neither. I personally see no objective argument against treating Kosovo's article like all other countries. 95.90.184.124 (talk) 15:39, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

95.90.184.124, I realise this thread is long but every point raised here has already been addressed adequately. By consensus I was referring to the wide scope of editors and not the international community. For what it's worth those statistics are out of proportion. I mean Kosovo has received (up to now) 111 diplomatic recognitions regardless of whether territory is claimed or how many are in the UN. The number of states including unrecognised I believe is 206, so a slight majority recognising Kosovo but even that is on the basis of governments representing people. So the "world consensus" which has achieved a majority can be largely attributed to the likes of Iceland, Luxembourg, San Marino, Andorra, Nauru, Monaco, Tuvalu, Brunei, Malta, Vanuatu, Tonga, Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Dominica, Samoa and many others. When you consider that those not to recognise include People's Republic of China, India, Russia, Nigeria, Indonesia, Brazil and Bangladesh then these countries by themselves represent over a half of the world's population before adding the remainder. So I wouldn't base my argument on statistics if I were adamant to support the category. As I've now said on enough occasions, I have never implied that a state should have 100% recognition and I have repeatedly cited that there is no threshold to pass before proclaimed states reach the top level here, it is all down to editorial opinion. China is subject to a dispute between two rival entities PRC (Beijing) and ROC (Taiwan), and the entire world recognises one or the other. So China per se does have 100% recognition. As regards Israel, there is a huge difference between refusing to establish relations with a country and recognising 100% of its territory as belonging to another state. The State of Palestine claims the West Bank and Gaza, not Tel Aviv or Eilat, therefore no country not recognising Israel claims that those cities belong to another country. That is the issue that dictates not only this minor Kosovo-related matter but all others such as what is written in the lede. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 07:20, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry to say it, but your stance against Kosovo is totally ungrounded. Do you think Bangladesh (with all respect) is more "important" than Germany, France or England, because it has a bigger population? Basing your arguments on the sizes of populations if wrong and does not reflect current principles of international relations. Countries might have different populations but have all equal rights in the modern era. For me the situation is clear: Kosovo is a country by all definitional criteria, despite the fact that it is not recognized by 100% of countries (which is not a criterion). As said, territorial disputes are not a criterion to deny the existence of countries (see above list of territorial disputes). Your other example on Israel is superficially manipulated, you forgot that both countries claim the capital of each other (Jerusalem). So finally, I see no more points to discuss with you, because I see no objective reasons against Kosovo's inclusion. I would leave it to other impartial editors to further comment. (Naturally, impartial means not Serbian, ex-Yugoslavian, Greek or Russian, most of whom usually have an anti-Albanian vertigo). 95.90.184.124 (talk) 10:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Once more you fail the comprehend the basic factor. I am not for one minute implying that one country is more imporant than another, I am merely demonstrating how one technicality - in this particular case - of number of states to recognise exceeding 50%, can be easily trumped (for the time being) by the fact that over half the world's population lives somewhere that does not recognise Kosovo. With each new recognition that will start to remedy slightly, I am well aware. Well done on noticing Jerusalem which indeed is claimed by two entities. That makes Jerusalem the subject of a territorial dispute, it does not turn all of Israel into a land that some 80 countries recognise as belonging to another state. Now do you follow? --Oranges Juicy (talk) 12:17, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

• Can't we just comply with WP:V? We have a reliable source saying that Kosovo is a country in Europe. Anastan countered that the category should be removed, claiming that there are many sources which say that Kosovo isn't a country in Europe; but Anastan has refused to provide these sources, and I can't find any. Eventually this article will follow what sources say, rather than Serb nationalist fantasy. bobrayner (talk) 13:04, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back! Much has been discussed in your absence. Yes by all means we can follow WP:V. These confirm that over one third of world countries that represent over half the population recognise the claimed territory as Serbia's territorial integrity in spite of certain publications from organisations affiliated to and composed of bodies to recognise Kosovo. The reliable sources in turn confirm that the region is the subject of a territorial dispute. The remaining arguments which focus on the usual criteria associated with statehood are shared with all other proclaimed states which are not recognised by the state from whom they endeavoured to break away. If you have any difficulties finding these please let me know and I'll gladly help. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 13:22, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Serbia itself does not dispute the territory. Who else is disputing it? And why do they matter? Red Slash 23:58, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

The territory is disputed. Some countries recognise the Republic, others recognise it as an autonomous province of Serbia. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 06:08, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Red Slash.

Oranges Juicy, instead of irrelevant screeds about how a minority of countries "recognise the claimed territory as Serbia's territorial integrity", whatever that means, perhaps you could let us know how many of them say that Kosovo is not a country? If you could provide sources, that would be even better, since at the moment you're opposing the addition of very well sourced content. bobrayner (talk) 00:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

All of the other items at Category:Countries in Europe are sovereign entities whose lands are not disputed by the state from which they broke away. Therefore, country is clearly being used according to a certain definition. The rest of your argument attacks the straw man because I have never stated, "xxx does not call it a country". We have established countless times that Kosovo is very much a country insofar as it has all the emblems and properties of a state: much like Transnistria which is also in Europe and for which there is no source that says it is "not a country". As for the "minority" of states to not recognise Kosovo which represent well over one half of the world's population, perhaps someone can tell me how they can possibly acknowledge Kosovo's sovereignty and Serbia's claim at the same time. As for "perfectly well sourced", again this throws objects at the straw man because all you have provided is an acknowledgement from a recognising organisation which fails to identify the dispute. It is the disputed status which counters the idea that Kosovo should be placed at top level (thus opposing any "country" mention). It is clear that you and some other editors have gone to the extreme of denying the disputed status by demanding sources to that effect. Well, I am not Anastan and I am not going to provide any material, reliable or not. Instead I am going to make you, and all supporters of the category, a once in a lifetime offer. I will add the category myself to the article, once you have successfully nominated International recognition of Kosovo for deletion based on no sources of the dispute and the world's mixed reaction. Should be an easy task given there are "no sources". So when that is done, I will restore the category. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 05:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Can you please Red Slash source that statement that Serbian doesn't dispute the territory? Where did you come up with that? Please see Serbian Ministry of Interior official website. And stop edit-warring. FkpCascais (talk) 02:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@95.90.184.124: Please bear in mind that WP:CALC does not apply to decisions as to whether an entity is considered to be a sovereign country: it isn't a "first past the post" !vote. The burden of proof lies with those introducing any content to pass WP:V and WP:RS. RS tell us that Kosovo is most certainly not unilaterally recognised. The issue has absolutely nothing to do with any single editor's personal view over whether it's right or just. By the same token, we could also pretend that Crimea is not a de facto republic of the RF. Facts on the ground tell us otherwise. This is an encyclopaedic resource, not a wish list for a perfect world. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Evidently none of the aforementioned opinions support that "Kosovo is not a country"? In order to rule Kosovo out, the editors above invent personal definitions on what a state is? There exist no rules such that "Every country must be recognized by Serbia.", or "No country should exist if some other country claims its territory.", or "A country must be recognized by at least X% of world states, and cases where X<56% are not countries." All those artifices are personal definitions of what a country is, aiming to eclipse the fact that Kosovo fulfills the scholarly and internationally accepted criteria for being defined as a Country, such as sovereignty, institutions, territorial control, armed forces, international recognition, etc ... @Irina: Are you not aware that Kosovo is a sovereign country, or do you have another personal definition of sovereignty conflicting the established criteria of the List of sovereign states, which are:

"The dominant customary international law standard of statehood is the declarative theory of statehood that defines the state as a person of international law if it "possess[es] the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population; (b) a defined territory; (c) government; and (d) a capacity to enter into relations with the other states" so long as it was not "obtained by force whether this consists in the employment of arms, in threatening diplomatic representations, or in any other effective coercive measure". Debate exists on the degree to which recognition should be included as a criterion of statehood. The declarative theory of statehood, an example of which can be found in the Montevideo Convention, argues that statehood is purely objective and recognition of a state by other states is irrelevant. On the other end of the spectrum, the constitutive theory of statehood defines a state as a person under international law only if it is recognised as sovereign by other states. For the purposes of this list, included are all states that either: (a) consider themselves sovereign (through a declaration of independence or some other means) and are often regarded as satisfying the declarative theory of statehood, or (b) are recognised as a sovereign state by at least one UN member state". As you see Kosovo fulfills all the above-mentioned criteria. Since the contrary opinions stated in previous messages do not constitute internationally and scholarly defined criteria, but merely personal definitions, then I see no purpose in further arguing whether "Kosovo is not a country". 95.90.184.26 (talk) 23:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Nice of you to return after stating you had nothing more to discuss here. Nobody forced you away and your opinions are most welcome. Thank you also for those terms and conditions on statehood, so let's take everything one by one.

• Evidently none of the aforementioned opinions support that "Kosovo is not a country"
  • Correct. Nobody is basing their opposition to the category on the premise of that one remark. Anastan did produce that comment but has since revised his choice of words to argue that Kosovo is a disputed territory and that is what directly counters the "country" argument, rather than a blunt assertion that "Kosovo is not a country".
• In order to rule Kosovo out, the editors above invent personal definitions on what a state is?
  • Supporters of Kosovo's addition to the category have themselves ruled Kosovo out by failing to produce a reason why it should feature on a category to which all other items are not disputed territories while further failing to remark on why other disputed territories should continue to be excluded from their equivalent category. Meanwhile no disagreeing editor has offered "personal definitions" as to what a state is. The reasoning behind the opposition is not in any way based on what constitutes statehood.
• There exist no rules such that "Every country must be recognized by Serbia.", or "No country should exist if some other country claims its territory. ", or "A country must be recognized by at least X% of world states, and cases where X<56% are not countries. All those artifices are personal definitions of what a country is..."
  • Correct, those artifices are indeed personal definitions but nobody claimed any of that.
• ...aiming to eclipse the fact that Kosovo fulfills the scholarly and internationally accepted criteria for being defined as a Country, such as sovereignty, institutions, territorial control, armed forces, international recognition, etc
  • Nobody aims to eclipse anything - so for the record, please pay attention to this statement by me. Kosovo fulfills every one of the scholarly and internationally accepted criteria to qualify as a country and this means sovereignty, institutions, territorial control, armed forces, defined borders, international recognition, a flag, an anthem, a motto, a government, an agreed currency, a passport and many other things. Satisfied now? By the way, Abkhazia, Republic of China, South Ossetia and North Cyprus also have these things, as did Azawad in 2012. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 23:20, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Nobody, I think, disputes that Kosovo is a sovereign state. And I appreciate your statement towards those ends, Oranges Juicy. No one disputes that there are those who do not recognize Kosovo's sovereignty, at least officially. I think the question is to what degree we should be spotlighting either of those two pieces of information. I intend to file an RfC to get a greater audience, since this doesn't seem to be bringing in a whole heck of a lot of people. Thoughts? Red Slash 07:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@OrangesJuicy: Quite the contrary, I enjoy talking to you guys! To perhaps re-phrase your last claim concisely, you oppose 1) Kosovo's addition to list of countries because its territory is disputed, and 2) You claim other disputed countries which fulfill the statehood criteria should be treated similarly in other respective lists. Regarding 1) Territory dispute is not a criterion for exclusion, and you are wrong on assuming that "all other items [in the list] are not disputed territories", see Cyprus and Northern Cyprus. Furthermore you agreed that Kosovo fulfills all the statehood criteria. Coming to you next point 2) I fully agree to you, if they meet the criteria, other countries (e.g. Palestine, Taiwan (RoC), etc ...) should naturally be added to relevant lists.

@RedSlash: When asking for other opinions, one should be clear to first formally specify the accepted definition criteria of a country, then to check whether Kosovo fulfills. I would propose we avoid that editors provide opinions on the territorial dispute of Kosovo (which is known and accepted), but to check whether any academic sources state that "countries having a territorial dispute should enjoy a discriminated treatment". 95.90.184.26 (talk) 08:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)