Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film

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Review aggregators discussion

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Review aggregators#Overlink. Editors are invited to comment. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:09, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:The Conjuring (film series)#Requested move 26 August 2018

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:The Conjuring (film series)#Requested move 26 August 2018. Joeyconnick (talk) 05:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)Template:Z48 —Joeyconnick (talk) 05:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Subsection headings

Not sure if other editors have noticed, but it seems like more and more (mainstream) film articles are getting out of control with the number of subsection headings despite minimal content under any given heading. This seems to be a result of an extremely cookie-cutter approach by some editors (possibly stemming in the superhero films, whose articles are the most trafficked). While it may work for a superhero film article that is almost always fleshed-out, it is highly unnecessary to shoehorn subsection headings into articles that barely have any content and has no guarantee of actually growing to fit the structure. So I invite editors to remove such headings where there is insufficient content to warrant them. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 19:24, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

You may be interested in the tangential discussion WT:MOS#RfC on single subsections. --Izno (talk) 21:46, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

TCM.com

Following on from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_70#TCM.com and Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2018_August_19#Template:TCMDb_title (regarding the TCM template being geoblocked in Europe) I have made a proposal to apply Lugnuts' fix. The discussion is at Template_talk:TCMDb_title. Betty Logan (talk) 22:56, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Lupe Vélez → Lupe Velez

The above nomination is at Talk:Lupe Vélez#Requested move 28 August 2018.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Sabu Dastagir → Sabu (actor)

Another name-related nomination is at Talk:Sabu Dastagir#Requested move 27 August 2018.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:39, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Rotten Tomatoes update

Rotten Tomatoes announced here that they will be adding more critics. (There is also news coverage of this update, if you want to read some outside perspectives.) While I do not think this will impact us directly, I do think the continued emphasis on the binary approach of being only positive or negative means that we should continue to pair Metacritic results with this (not that we had a problem doing that anyway). We may also want to be more cognizant of updating RT scores and review counts if reviews will be added for past films. It does seem to mean that the likelihood of a film reaching and staying at 100% will become vanishingly small. The New York Times did say here that the RT "top critics" will be looked at next. As outlined at MOS:FILM#Rotten Tomatoes Top Critics, we do not use this, but depending on the changes, we may want to revisit it. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:04, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Albert Ritz → Al Ritz and Harold Ritz → Harry Ritz

One additional (dual) name-related nomination is at Talk:Albert Ritz#Requested move 23 August 2018.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:18, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Whether to update accessdate

User:Dan56 is asking User:IUpdateRottenTomatoes not to update the retrieved date of a citation to Rotten Tomatoes when updating an RT score. I've never heard of this idea nor have I witnessed it being recommended or practiced. As far as I'm concerned a retrieved date should indicate the date when the information was retrieved, not when the source was first added, especially when it comes to variable information like RT/Metacritic scores and box office revenues because otherwise there would be no way to know how old the information is. Is what Dan56 is advocating something recommended or put in practice? Is there an existing consensus or guideline? Nardog (talk) 06:16, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

This is the opposite of what should be happening, the accessdate definitely should be updated if the data is. What @Dan56 gave as reasoning is that the accessdate indicates "the date that the URL was found to be working", but what the sentence in the template documentation actually says is "the date that the URL was found to be working and to support the text being cited" (emphasis mine). What that says to me is that the date needs to be when you retrieved the actual data that you are citing in the article, so if you update the RT score then the accessdate needs to reflect that RT has changed since the score was last updated. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

The majority of the material--with the exception of the one numerical figure--had been retrieved earlier. Updating an accessdate does not prove how old the information is; it proves when the user revised material in an article to reflect said information. I was not asking them to do anything: My exact words to them were "You do not have to...", and I only made it a point because they had brought it up when I inadvertently reverted that portion of their changes in an edit to an article. I did not mean to start this; I just wanted to undo an inexplicable section-heading change. I have no further interest in this; let IUpdateRottenTomatoes change accessdates as they please. Dan56 (talk) 07:30, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Dan56, I realize you're backing off, but there's another good reason for updating the access date in situations like this. If for some reason, the URL to the reference breaks, an editor can search online archives like Wayback and pull an archived copy from a date closest to the listed access date. Granted, that's less likely to ever be needed for a Rotten Tomatoes reference, but it's another reason to make sure that parameter is updated. --GoneIn60 (talk) 08:55, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, and the accessdate should be a date where all the content attributed to that source was present, not 95% of the content or whatever. We should also assume readers may use the accessdate to think "that was the state of affairs on that date". For example, listing the box office after a month with an old Box Office Mojo accessdate three days into the run would be factually wrong. Many readers know that Box Office Mojo updates daily. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Rfc

If interested, please share your opinion on the Rfc on Character Names in plot summaries. Jauerback^dude?/_dude.

Plot summary of D-Tox

There's an issue about the film D-Tox in the plot summary which is a big summary. The user name Binksternet edit the plot summary of it way too short as it's beyond the 400 word limit as see in this diff and I reverted it back, but it is still very large summary. So we need it to at least shortened to while maintaining the plot summary of that movie without making way too short. BattleshipMan (talk) 07:56, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Looks like this has been attended to. DonIago (talk) 19:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, by NinjaRobotPirate. He shortened the summary down and I did a minor tune up to make it concise and somewhat cleaner. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:47, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Sixteen Candles sequel

There is currently a discussion underway at the Sixteen Candles talk page as to whether information about a proposed sequel should be included in the article. I removed the relevant section, arguing that the sources are several years old, and a Google search found no recent news about it. SummerPhD restored it, arguing that it is still relevant. I'd like some other editor's opinions on this, please. Is there a policy at the Film Project about such things? Thanks. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 16:34, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't think there are any guidelines about this. Considering how many not-quite-upcoming films I've merged to broader articles, I think it is worth keeping details of what was attempted in the past. Sometimes development can take a while, and sometimes news of development seems to pop up occasionally until something finally gets made (or never does). Is it possible to have a sentence about the lack of progress? I know it is not a "sourced" sentence to have, but it feels commonsense enough to say, "There have been no updates on the film's development since" or something along these lines. I don't know how old development news should be to take more drastic measures. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Erik that the info should be kept, providing it's all sourced, of course. There must be dozens and dozens of similar situations of films with planned remakes, sequels, preqels, etc. Just be careful of something like this, which follows the age-old problem of a non-reliable source saying something, which then gets picked up by a reliable source, and before you know it, stays in a WP article for years! Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:34, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your input. I have to say, I've seen plenty of film articles in which information about projected sequels was removed when said film never materialized. It seems pretty clear that there's no consensus about how to handle such situations. How many sequels, remakes, reboots, etc., have been discussed in recent years and then never gained traction? In this case, the idea for the sequel came from Molly Ringwald herself, and was sourced the reliable sources, so that is not an issue. I truly do wonder how long we wait before such claims become stale. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 16:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

It is stale. It just needs to be stated as such in the article. --Gonnym (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the coverage, it looks like it ranges from 2003 to 2008 at the latest (as far as I can tell). Maybe have a summary sentence at the beginning saying that a sequel was discussed from 2003 to 2008, and then get into details? Like 2003 with USA Network working on development, and 2008 with Ringwald still expressing desire for a sequel despite no traction. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:57, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

At the moment the statement doesn't really tells us much. Was there a script? Finance? A shooting date? Or was it just a case of a washed-up star wanting to revive her career with a sequel to her biggest hit? If there was some development then by all means document it, but I don't really see much purpose to the section as it currently stands. Betty Logan (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, there was development as seen here in 2003, but there has been no development-related update since that year. This in 2012 mentions the sequel talk. This and this in 2014 mentions it as well. We would probably remiss to not mention it at all. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:48, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Generally, "interest" in a remake or project comes about when money shows up which is just one step higher than someone merely wanting a remake or project to be done. And to get to the next stage of that interest being published is of course much better than an actor waking up in the morning and thinking of ressusitating their career. We always hear about a project having been in the works since the invention of the clay tablet but few instances ever seem to be known at what times in the past have there been published notices of interest. And it is part of the film making process. And i am certain that for some films the history of the stop and go of money is a significant part of the process. At least WP have not scoured the listings of Craigslist to compile when filmmakers advertise for technical help to help bring their project along.2605:E000:1301:4462:904E:DC75:3814:4202 (talk) 09:10, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Video games and soundtracks by director categories

Hi. You might be interested in this discussion and this one at CfD. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 07:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Unintentional redirect for It – Chapter Two

Please see here for a conversation regarding It: Chapter Two. When entering the title as displayed (It: Chapter Two), you're redirected to the Italian Wikipedia page for "Chapter Two", and myself and another user feel a note needs to be placed on the Italian page. Sock (tock talk) 19:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

That's the weirdest thing I have ever seen on Wikipedia. I think this is a WP:VPT issue quite honestly. Betty Logan (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Betty. You should made a discussion at VPT, because I feel like the article should be living at It: Chapter Two. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 19:50, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

This behavior is a consequence of how interwiki linking works. See WP:NC-COLON. The only way to fix that here is the template {{correct title}}. I would not edit the it.wp page directly, though you can leave a talk page note there and maybe someone there will agree that it is a problem they should do something about. --Izno (talk) 20:08, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Robin Williams

There's a discussion regarding a potential GA/FA push for Robin Williams. The discussion can be found at Talk:Robin Williams#Possible GA/FA push?. Input from project members would be very much appreciated. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:03, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Template:Amazon Video films and documentaries at TfD

Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 15:14, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Starring/film poster

Hi. Please can someone take a second to look at this article with regards to the starring field parameter in the infobox? As far as I can tell, there are only two names on the poster, so these are the only two that should be listed here? Is that correct? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 11:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

The billing block says this: A film by Laura Bispuri, with Albra Rohrwacher and Flonja Kodheli, Lars Eidinger, Luan Jaha, Bruno Shllaku, Ilire Celaj, Drenica Selimaj, Emily Ferratello, Produced by Marta Donzelli [...]. Hope this helps. --Gonnym (talk) 11:44, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The extra-large version here shows the full set of names in the billing block. (Gonnym beat me to it) Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 11:46, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough, I stand corrected. Thanks both. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 12:41, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

FYI to editors that confirmed the billing:
I added the names billed in the film poster to the article's infobox. User:Lugnuts kept deleting them.
His persistent deletions have been recorded in the article's talk page here. Even though I used the film poster to support my inclusion of the actor names, and User:Lugnuts consistently deleted them, he posted an edit warring warning on my talk page. Because of your confirmation of what the poster proves, he has now self-reverted his last deletion of the names (without providing a summary) and restored them to the infobox. However, he has not apologized for accusing me of edit warring when I had used the poster as the source — and he would not allow the names to be included. An editor that doesn't have my mettle is not going to subject her/himself to the intransigence of another editor and will stop trying to contribute to the improvement of this article, or any article in which another editor creates roadblocks. Pyxis Solitary yak 13:28, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Infobox character

I recently reverted the addition of a character infobox to the Falling Down article. I have never seen a film article with a character infobox, and assume there is a policy or consensus against their use. In case this is restored, can someone point me to the guideline or policy on this? Thanks. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 14:15, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

There is no policy or guideline against their use but I agree they are impractical on film articles. Furthermore, the FUR for the image is invalid because it neither illustrates the subject of the article (which is the film) and nor does it facilitate critical commentary. Betty Logan (talk) 14:20, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I think that character infobox would be most appropriate if the section containing it was actually focused on the character to some extent, like what happens with album infoboxes. Right now it is just shoehorned into the "Production" section. Furthermore, I think album sections and their infoboxes are pretty self-contained, where I think it is hard to have a character section and infobox because many different details about the character are scattered throughout the article. Basically, it seems most appropriate to have the character infobox in a standalone article. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 14:45, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I agree with all of this. In the case of Falling Down, this is one editor who seems obsessed with what he perceives as the singular importance of this character. If there is adequate information and sources for the character's importance, though, that would support a stand-alone article, not a section in the film article. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 15:09, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Tried looking for any MoS guideline that deals with multiple infoboxes on a page, but couldn't fine one. My personal opinion is that 1 should be the max in most cases, with exception beings soundtrack albums. --Gonnym (talk) 15:18, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

The character infobox was restored again, and the editor has still not used the talk page. I may need some support over there. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 03:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Start date and age templates for film companies

I've noticed that in some articles for film companies like Paramount Pictures and Universal Pictures, the infoboxes include the {{start date and age}} template in the foundation dates. Is it necessary to list them if possible? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:44, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Also IBM for example, seems appropriate if the company has been around for a long time as their age itself is somewhat notable and worth pointing out. For more recent companies seems trivial. Geraldo Perez (talk) 16:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

I would say not to worry about the precise date in most cases. Just the year would be useful to know roughly how long a company has been around. Even "recent" companies stop becoming recent as time goes by. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:17, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2018 September 6#File:Not Half A Human 2018.webm

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2018 September 6#File:Not Half A Human 2018.webm. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:51, 8 September 2018 (UTC)Template:Z48

Jawani Phir Nahi Ani 2

Would someone mind having a look at the box office section of the above film. It seems excessively detailed and the weight given to this may be WP:UNDUE. It is updated alomst every day. Dom from Paris (talk) 15:45, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

The Departed and The Last Samurai

Can a previously uninvolved editor take a look at the recent edit history of these two articles and intercede on the side of reason? I'm going to step back from editing these two articles for a few days, lest an edit war begin. Thanks. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 01:02, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

The question is being begged. What is there to be resolved but to have others contribute to cinema articles without what appears to be universal unilateral revert of what is contributed and then in the end the changes are made at your behest? A review of the talk page will point this out. The whole point of editing is to bring about the star standard for every article. This is not going to be achieved without proper editing and content development of something such as the plot. A previously existing size advisory was posted on the plot. the plot, like many others was expressed in statements as they appeared in the film instead of general statements thus reducing the word count and making the article more concise. The plot continues to suffers from too much detail when it comes to the matter of its size. The proposed revisions were rejected on the basis that the matter had to be addressed in the talk page. The matter of a previous talk page incident was brought to fore to remind the contributor about actions from the past about thwarting talk page discussion by deleting the discussion. A review of archived teahouse content will show this happened 3 times. The contributor was advised against this action by others. Then when the plot size advisory was posted so that it appeared on the read screen of the article, unilateral piecemeal word reductions were made to reach the WP plot word count guideline. The contributor was reminded that the point of the WP plot size guidelines was not to reduce word count but create a concise plot. One change resulted in a grammatical error that has been corrected. When it was brought to the attention of the other contributor that the matter was under consensus discussion accusations of being an abusive contributor were made. I will not speculate as to why this was done but this same tactic has been used in the past with other contributor's edits. It is not a very cooperative means of encouraging cooperation in the community spirit especially when what is inflicted on others is what others wish to be followed in the process that has been established in WP to resolve article content--consensus. Yet it seems to be that this action of consensus is not applicable to some within the WP community. If there is WP content that shows that parts apply to some and parts do not apply to others then let the entire WP see this. TheoldJacobite is not a new contributor and should know better than to bully through the WP community. This is not a negative statement; it is a statement of fact. I can never change someone's attitude that if they see these actions as aggressive as it is shown that those who feel threatened react in ways that are not very cooperative as if personal territory is being usurped. I was unaware that WP was a personally owned organization. TheOldjacobite may not like what is going on; that is not the point of WP. And maybe TheOldJacobite may have a role in what he himself has described as his own "testiness" and what results. This is not a negative reaction on TheOldJacobit but a statement of fact. A review of ANIs and other boards will show that he has a tendency not to participate in questions being involved that are brought there. That contributor's talk page is restricted from non-registered users communicating. These are not actions that could be included as forms of aggression or being uncooperative within the WP community? WP is not set up to deal with bullies because it puts the bull's eye on you especially when someone has a following. You do not get promoted in WP if you make fellow administrators and higher echelon participants upset.2605:E000:1301:4462:904E:DC75:3814:4202 (talk) 06:04, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Some thoughts: TheOldJacobite reverted these changes to the plot summaries because they made them less clear. For example, in The Last Samurai, Honor has a role in Japanese history - that's background, not plot; Fired by the Winchester, ... - what's the Winchester?; The village is watching kabuki, Algren raises the alarm to the infiltrating ninga and he saves Katsumoto - what ninja? The original does not have those issues. Reverting and suggesting discussion is not aggression, bullying, or a sign that edits to make the summary more concise are unwelcome, it's just WP:BRD. No discussion was deleted from Talk:The Last Samurai, as you suggested, nor from Talk:The Departed. The guidelines suggest an upper limit of 700 words for film summaries. Before any editing took place, the summary was 718 words long: not a big problem, even if that were a hard limit. Perhaps you could try making more moderate changes to plot summaries and, if you're reverted, explain your intentions on the talk page before re-reverting. Starting that discussion with an accusation did not help to establish a consensus. Neither did reverting TheOldJacobite's less extensive copy-edit without then explaining why you thought it was a problem. It's great that you want to help improve plot summaries, but these particular changes have not yet helped. › Mortee _talk 13:18, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the warnings on your talk page, that wouldn't be my own approach - at least if I was feeling calm - but from an outside perspective, reverting their copy edit on The Last Samurai and repeatedly inserting {{plot}} on The Departed does have a disruptive element to it. As the plot summary of The Departed was not beyond the word limit it would be better not to tag it, even if the language can be tightened. The visible warning is off-putting to readers and should be limited to cases that are bad enough that they need attention beyond starting a talk page conversation or making minor edits directly. As with The Last Samurai, I'd suggest trying to be a bit more patient, make changes, see if anyone objects, discuss them if so and, if not, carry on. We all want the same thing in the end, which is a crisp overview of each film's plot. It's entirely possible to work together to get there. › Mortee _talk 13:31, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Seriously, why does anyone waste any time with plot summaries? They are forever getting rewritten. We should have a sandbox mentality about the summaries, in letting newer editors play around with it as long as the changes are not detrimental. Plus I'm sure there is a degree of laziness in a protective editor's wholesale reverting where they can't be bothered to review the differences and only do a partial revert of potentially problematic elements. Editors who tend to "protect" plot summaries should beware; see recent relevant ANI thread here. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:36, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion at The Empire Strikes Back

For those who are interested, there is a move discussion at Talk:The Empire Strikes Back#Requested move 10 September 2018. --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:33, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Some rspoinses--

I think that OldJacobite can answer for himself otherwise what you say he did someone is mere speculation. He has not commented on any detail.

Has the film been seen? Did you listen to the narrator who also is portrayed as the interpretor? Honor is taken directly from his words from the very beginning of the film. That is niot background, that sets the tone for the entire film.

Winchester--The whole reason he needs a job is because the Winchestor Rifle company has fired him. Like anything entered into WP it is all up for development. No one can insert that. Film dialogue says that the company has fired him.>BR>

Ninja--I never contributed the term ninga to the plot. That was pre-existing. If that is what had been standing before then I was willing to accept. Oh, the ninga (it can be a singular or plural term) were the guys crawling over the roof.

Deleted talk page content. Did you look a little further up in another post that includes a link to where TDJ has deleted talk page content on 3 other articles. It is all in the teahouse archive that also includes he being rebuked.

A review of my edits concerning plots continually are reverted by TOJ sometimes with no edit summaries. In fact the first revert this time was not made with an edit summary. I purposely did not complete my edit of the plot intending to see just what would be the reaction of the editor in question because if he is going to continue to automatically revert then why bother getting the job done.

If this is a community and cooperative effort then why not ask questions on the talk page to come to a consensus. Instead there is only a revert and referral to the talk page. I find a question with his edits, ask him to explain the situation and am accused of being a combatent. TOJ changes are moderate? Or are you more willing to give the power of doubt because of senior standing in WP?

I do not bring this forth willy nilly.

suggested, nor from Talk:The Departed. The guidelines suggest an upper limit of 700 words for film summaries. Before any editing took place, the summary was 718 words long: not a big problem, even if that were a hard limit. Perhaps you could try making more moderate changes to plot summaries and, if you're reverted, explain your intentions on the talk page before re-reverting. Starting that discussion with an accusation did not help to establish a consensus. Neither did reverting TheOldJacobite's less extensive copy-edit without then explaining why you thought it was a problem. It's great that you want to help improve plot summaries, but these particular changes have not yet helped. › Mortee _talk 13:18, 10 September 2018 (UTC)