Talk:Kyrie Irving

Nationality

Kyrie holds duel citizenship for both America and Australia he was born in Australia and qualified for the Australian natural team he is not just American he wasn't born in America. Regardless of how many years he lived in Australia you've gotta place the facts on his page you can't just dismiss the facts. Australian / American is what is best to fit his info box. He wasn't born on a military base which is considered US Soil he was born on Australian soil there for making him Australian. JMichael22 (talk) 18:32, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Have a read of this thread Talk:Kyrie Irving#Kyrie Irving Nationality. DaHuzyBru (talk) 03:40, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Per earlier threads, the body of the text is sufficient to explain the context of his connection to Australia. Neither the lead nor the infobox is capable of the nuance necessary, and there's no evidence he self-identifies as Australian or Australian-American, so it is wrong to imply that is does by just stating it as so. --Jayron32 04:43, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes I read it and there doesn't seem to have been an official consensus reached just seems like back and forth conversation i believe it takes more to reach consensus. Also he was born on Australian soil there is no way it can be disputed. He is Australian, in cases of Army bases i see those born on them are Americans but that isn't the case here. Kyrie was born in Australia not Anerica. His parents are American but they had their child in Australia making him an Australian of American decent. JMichael22 (talk) 05:25, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

User:Jayron32 he doesn't self-identify as Australian where is that at? Seems like an opinion not fact also here is a source of him returning to Australia for basketball Melbourne-born NBA star Kyrie Irving set to visit Australia for a series of coaching clinics JMichael22 (talk) 05:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Here is source with a direct quote from Kyrie Irving stating "I’m proud to say that I’m an Australian American”. Kyrie Irving to run basketball clinics in Australia. JMichael22 (talk) 05:41, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Here is another source with a direct quote from Kyrie Irving stating "I’m Aussie born and I consider myself an Aussie.” How close Australia really got to luring NBA superstar Kyrie Irving, as Boomers prepare for Team USA JMichael22 (talk) 05:47, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

The thread I referred to has four user's involved – 3 for not having Australian listed, and 1 for having Australian listed. There is a precedent, making you not the first, nor will you be the last, to compulsively add Australian to the infobox and first sentence. With yourself and User:Jayron32 involved, that would make it 4–2. See Bagumba's rationale in that original thread.

Bagumba – any thoughts on the two sources linked above? DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:01, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

There was absolutely no sources used to support the claims to not place Australian. And there should have been in a discussion to support ones claims you need to base a decision on facts by using proper sources not just how one feels on the topic. Iv been apart of many discussions to know sources are required for information to be placed. JMichael22 (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

User:DaHuzyBru the whole 4—2 count is nothing at this point unless you or others can provide the proper sources to support Australian not being placed on his page. There need to be a legitimate reason for his nationality to not represent his home country. JMichael22 (talk) 06:08, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Bagumba's rationale from this time last year – Per MOS:BLPLEAD: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Australia isn't a core part of his notability, and he hasn't played for their national team either. See similar case of Steve Nash being listed as Canadian despite being a dual citizen. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:20, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:PRIMARY there have been no sources to support the nationality stay simple as american. Steve Nash was never a citizen of South Africa it's a different situation also British & Canadian Duel citizenship, regardless British Columbia is part of Canada making him Canadian. Kyrie is from Australia and moved to the U.S. gaining duel citizenship to two different countries. Nash simply has Canadian Citizenship it's a completely different situation. Kyrie is Australian American iv provided the sources to support this claim. There still has been 0 effort on anyone's part to support the defense of not changing it to Australian American. Also please see Wikipedia:Citizenship and nationality JMichael22 (talk) 06:26, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

As WP:PRIMARY is unrelated to nationality, it's not clear what your point is. Nash is a dual citizen listed in his lead sentence as being Canadian; Irving is a dual-citizen as well, it's not "completely different" as you claim. Wikipedia:Citizenship and nationality is a failed proposal with some dubious statements, so I discount its importance.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Another source The greatest sportsman you NEVER knew was Australian JMichael22 (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

The title is "The greatest sportsman you NEVER knew was Australian" because he is generally notable for being American. He was raised in America, plays professionally in America, and played on the US national team. As stated above, MOS:BLPLEAD advises not to list non-relevant nationalities. Nobody disputes that he is a dual citizen; it's just not prominent to his notability, so it is mentioned in the body only. His Australian citizenship was a temporary news item around the 2016 Olympics, noting that he did not choose to play for Australia.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

User:Jayron32 to support that he does acknowledge being Australian Kyrie's official Twitter Account showing one of his locations as Australia JMichael22 (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

National identity is necessary but non sufficient to mention a nationality in the lead. Ultimately, it's an editorial decision if it's relevant or not for the lead. There's usually no issue with it's inclusion in the body.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Consensus can change to list "Australian" in the lead. Feel free to add it is that consensus is reached.—Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia of Kyrie Irving his Australian nationality is part of who he is. It's not up to us or not to say if he's Australian or not. It's up to us to place factual information regarding to him. he is Australian where your born is your base of nationality. He wasn't born in America but had American Parents that is the extension of his American heritage. immigrants come to America everyday to live that doesn't necessarily make them American. They can grow up in America but after being born in another country that doesn't mean they are American because they lived here for 20 years of their 22 year life. User:Bagumba you said "Ultimately, it's an editorial decision if it's relevant or not for the lead". On every page nationality is lead every wrestlers, actors and sports personality leads with nationality. Whomever (born / / ) is an American/Canadian/Australian... Etc is how most pages lead off so what are you referring to as relevant? Because nationality is what someone is made up of it describes someones culture. Base facts show he is Australian of American decent. Why must a consensus be reached on someone's nationality. When in reality we don't have a say or decision making ability in who they are. We just have the freedom to write about them using facts and sources. Not opinions and feelings about someone. Reaching a consensus on nationality of someone is purely absurd. JMichael22 (talk) 20:16, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

It is sufficient to mention any of the above points, with references, in the main part of the article. It's really not important enough for the lead.--Jayron32 20:57, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Then why even mention American? Honestly if Australian shouldn't be placed why should American? JMichael22 (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

In the case of dual citizens, editors decide which ones are relevant to the lead. All edits are subject to consensus, and the area of nationality is no exception. Per WP:GUIDELINE, they are "applied using reason and common sense." WP:NPOV is a major consideration, as articles are not obligated to include everything merely because it is true. Editors have oversight that for a given person, some nationalities that are not core to their notability may be excluded from the lead. They can be placed in the body, like in Irving's case with Australia. Let's see what others have to say about handling of "Australian" for him.—Bagumba (talk) 03:08, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

So, with Ben Simmons being locked into the Australian/American nationality on his Wiki page due to Dual nationality, are the gatekeepera on this page going to relent and allow Irvings nationality to be displayed as American/Australian, since he to is a dual citizen and was actually born in Auatralia (unlike Simmons, who has bo connection to America apart from his Father) Thevetran (talk) 05:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It's all about consensus, not "because another article has it". This is a contentious topic. With Simmons, we came to a compromise regarding the lead. Irving's dual citizenship is mentioned in the prose. The main point that is being made is that it's not integral to his notability, and therefore isn't currently noted in the lead. Perhaps the best course of action for you is to find another topic of interest, instead of being fixated on trivial nationality/citizenship debates. DaHuzyBru (talk) 05:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2021

I'd like to add some information about Kyrie Irving's disappearance from his team. Liferific (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 00:25, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Lakota heritage

I added information about his Lakota heritage as well as adding it to the list of nationalities. His tribe is a sovereign nation and he actively participates in his tribal heritage both publicly during games and privately with events on his reservation, showing both an active interest and identification as Lakota. Therefore it should be included.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 11:23, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

@Oncamera: Additions to the nationality field and the unofficial name in indigenous language have been removed. "Lakota" is not a nationality. – Sabbatino (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

@Sabbatino: How is his name unofficial? Every Lakota person who has a name has it included on their Wikipedia article so it's a standard on this website. He even introduces himself with that name during NBA games. I am restoring his name at the very least.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 12:37, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

That field is about nationality for FIBA eligibility. Irving has played for the US, hence its “American.” As for the other info, seems fine to include if reliably sourced Rikster2 (talk) 12:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

@Rikster2: I'll accept that usage of the info box nationality, which I didn't know so thank you for clarifying. I find it unreasonable that Sabbatino (talk · contribs) removes his Lakota name and removes him from the Lakota people category saying "he's not Lakota" as it's all well sourced that he is. It's a standard on Wikipedia for enrolled members of a Lakota tribe to be included in that category and also a standard for Lakota people to have their names on their pages, especially as it's a name he uses publicly in basketball games.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 12:54, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

The category is fine. The Lakota name is definitely worth including, but it may be a little confusing as presented in the first sentence. As I understand, his name is just “Hela,” not the whole phrase “Hela, Little Mountain”. But that may not be clear to people who only glance at the lead. Can I suggest adding some info about his background into the lead, and working his Lakota name into that context? Zagalejo^^^ 01:57, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

It's standard for Lakota people to have their name included in the opening sentence. I can put quotation marks around the English translation to clarify that it's not the Lakota if it's somehow confusing. If you want to also write a bit that includes his Lakota name and his activism, that would be great although I'm sure some people here might have a problem with that. But again, I don't agree with removing it from the opening sentence in the lead as that's not how it's done for Lakota people here on Wikipedia. That becomes an issue of Native erasure. If people are truly confused by it, they can read his article to learn more as it's sourced in the main body.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 06:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I understand the problem of Native erasure. I just think sometimes you need to balance that concern with readability. Your recent edit does help clarify things. Zagalejo^^^ 15:03, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Just to elaborate: I don’t think we should do anything to suppress information on Kyrie’s Lakota heritage. I just think there’s a tendency (throughout all of Wikipedia) to try to say too much in the very first sentence of an article. Certain bits of information would have more room to breathe in their own sentence. Right now, the lead doesn’t clarify where Kyrie’s Lakota name comes from. People may think it was something he was born with, or a translation of his English name. Some additional context in the lead could help for a smoother reading experience. Just my opinion. Zagalejo^^^ 18:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

I added a third paragraph to the opening lead that summarizes the things he does outside of competing, which includes the philanthropy he does for his Lakota tribe per your suggestion. Again, I do not see a valid reason to remove his Lakota name from the opening sentence, it's the standard on Wikipedia for Lakota people to include this and it's why the Lakota language template exists.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 19:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

OK, thanks! Zagalejo^^^ 23:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2021

Kyrie Irving has a daughter. Azurie Elizabeth Irving. She was born in and lives in Dallas, Texas with her mother, former beauty pageant queen, Andrea Wilson. She's 5, was born on 23rd November, 2015. Her middle name is Elizabeth to honor Kyrie Irving's late mother. KunalSethi98 (talk) 04:33, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Note that some of the info is already at Kyrie Irving#Personal life. However, even if sourced, some might have WP:NOTPUBLICFIGURE concerns, even with what is already in the article.—Bagumba (talk) 05:24, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Shooting guard vs Point guard

Editors keep changing his position to shooting guard (cited) which is getting reverted. He himself acknowledges is his new position per Kyrie Irving tells James Harden, 'You're the point guard, and I'm going to play shooting guard' as Brooklyn Nets settle on roles. Why does it keep getting removed Not per NBA sources if he is the one saying it? Is he not an NBA source?  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 22:25, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

@Oncamera: Irving can claim whatever he wants. The NBA simply lists him as "G" in their reports but that is the case for all guards (G) and forwards (F). Basketball-reference lists him as "point guard". This question should better be asked at WT:NBA, because this situation applies to many players. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:08, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2021

Kyrie Irving is an Australian born American professional basketball player 2001:8003:C930:1D00:B503:491F:7F1A:E3C4 (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Per MOS:BIRTHPLACE, birthplace is typically not mentioned in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 09:35, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Image

Should we replace the current image in the infobox with one that is more vertical? Since almost all the other images used for the other players uses a vertical rectangular image.BigRed606 (talk) 17:37, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2021

Abubakerj (talk) 12:49, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

I want to edit

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Run n Fly (talk) 15:44, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2021

Corey overtime (talk) 02:59, 1 June 2021 (UTC)