Talk:Rabies

Early 2004 comments

As stated in the "mosquito bat" article, bats eats a lot of mosquitos. As stated in the "rabies bat" article, there are numerous types of rabies viruses in bats. I thought that the article about rabies and bats would indicate that during the evolution of bats, the bats were infected by the rabies virus carried by mosquitos, and the bats developed a vaccine for rabies. Bats are carrier of rabies and that they are using the rabies as a biological defense against preditors.

I thought i'd read that David McRae didn't have rabies after all. However the BBC report says he died of it. Did they say it wasn't rabies and then change their mind again?

Mr Macrae did have rabies. The vaccine has to be given preventatively before the symptoms show up. The doctor who he went to see at Ninewells hospital in Dundee, diagnosed it immediately but it was already too late by then as the symptoms had started. They did hope that it was something else... -- Derek Ross

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Hmm, seems like you die if you get a rabies shot:

Current vaccines are relatively painless and are given in your arm, like a flu or tetanus vaccine. Once the symptoms begin, rabies is almost invariably fatal, ...

Could someone fix this please?

You know, I don't read it the same way you do. I think it works. --Dante Alighieri

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The change of the article to say that in unvaccinated humans, untreated rabies is almost always fatal implies that there have been unvaccinated, untreated survivors. I cannot say for certainty that this is not correct and it would be impossible to prove. However, given that there have been only a tiny number of survivors of rabies - only one that I am aware of - after the most intensive care that modern medicine has to offer, and he was horribly brain-damaged, I suspect that an untreated victim has no hope of survival. Can anyone quote me a case of an unvaccinated and untreated human rabies victim who has survived? If not, I think the article should go back to stating that untreated, unvaccinated rabies is thought to be uniformly fatal. That implies that while it might be possible, there are no known cases of survival.

Brian Rock 23:12, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

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Two qualms...

'In vitro' appears to have been misused. Experimentally seems to have been meant. Am I correct?

'Only viruses to travel along nerves...' I seem to remember that at least one herpes type virus does something similar. Chicken pox (herpes zoster, if memory serves) goes dormant and reerupts along nerve tracts, but is then shingles, not chicken pox. And other herpes viruses can do something similar in re dormancy (eg, genital herpes, and I think the 'cold sore' herpes virus).

Does this any of this mean the comment in the article should be changed? ww 15:07, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Accuracy question (Tekinia Corp)

I have removed the following paragraph from the end of the article:

"In August 2004 German Researchers at the pharmecutical company "Tekinia Corp" began experimenting with the Rabies virus to discover whether it could be used in biological warfare. Tekina Corp also announced that over a six year plan it would invest in the research of other viruses such as malaria and mad cow disease to observe whether they could possibly be used in a terrorist attack. The company has made no further comments or announced any findings."

It was added by an anonymous user 221.12.2.174 who at the same time inserted obvious vandalism elsewhere in the article. I have unsuccessfully tried to verify the factual statements. I get zero Google hits on the company name, which seems unlikely for a German pharmecutical company with the resources to do research on biological warfare, not to mention one announcing high-profile projects like this. If anyone has some information supporting what is said, please post it here. Alarm 12:05, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

A Cure?

I don't know if this is the right place to post this but rabbits are not from the rodentia family. This article explains that rodents can catch hydrophoby, yet it lists rabbits as a member of the family(rodentia), that cannot contract this disease. I'm not sure if this counts as a cure/treatment but it might be worth adding to the article. http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/11/24/rabies.ap/

Guess what: if you'd read the entry, you would have seen that it was already inserted! I think we'll now need to wait until the doctors publish which drugs they have used. JFW | T@lk 09:08, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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My aunt told me that rabies is present in the UK now, having being introduced by rats running through the chunnel. Can anyone confirm/refute this? Pakaran (ark a pan) 15:13, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Breaking News

BREAKING NEWS: On 30 December 2004 Jeanna Giese of Wisconsin, aged 15, became the first ever human to survive bat rabies symptoms without absolutely ANY VACCINATION before or after the bite. She survived owing to an experimental treatment protocol of 3 antiviral drugs and deliberate placement into coma. She's not yet well, but supposed to be OK soon. The method is simple and the drugs are affordable, so this shall forever change rabies treatment worldwide. See: http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/01/01/rabies.survivor.ap/index.html

Apparently the method did not get proper prior animal testing and some medical ethic guidelines were probably broken. Anyhow, USA is the country with a culture of risk-taking.

Medical Nobel Prize for the Children's Hospital of Wisconsin personnel seems as inevitable as death used to be after rabies symptoms set on?Pasteur died too early to be awarded the medal and now, after almost 110 years, it could be righted .

There have been five people previously who survived rabies symptoms, but every one of them had immunization before or after the bite.

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So more on this, there appears to be a cure (anti-viral drugs and such), but it must be administered ASAP and is not very successful. Perhaps the first paragraph of Prevention could be changed accordingly. It should state that there is a cure, but it has only once been a success. That is unless Jeanna was not infected in the first place.

As far as the USA being a country of risk-taking, i would contest that. Americans are actually denied experimental treatments for considerable time until they can pass the FDA. The regime given was with FDA-approved drugs, but was a new regimen. So the regimen was experimental, but the drugs were not. I don't believe this qualifies the USA as a risk-taking country, except in terms of the risks of keeping potentially useful drugs off the market. --Kevin L'Huillier 03:55, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

'euthanized' appropriate?

'Since there is no USDA-approved vaccine or quarantine period for skunks, pet skunks are frequently euthanized after accidentally biting a human.'

What is the modern understanding of 'euthanasia'?

the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable disease or in an irreversible coma.

Compact Oxford English Dictionary

the act or practice of killing or permitting the death of hopelessly sick or injured individuals (as persons or domestic animals) in a relatively painless way for reasons of mercy

www.m-w.com

Perhaps historially it referred to an easy or painless death... now it seems more specific, if these entries are any indication.

What is appropriate? I think it should be something emotionally distant, without suggestion of moral judgement. I had tried 'terminated', but this was reverted. Am I making a deal of nothing?

--Withersoever 11:22, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

Euthanasia

I was the one who changed "terminated" to "euthanized" because the Webster's definition for "terminate" does not list an entry for a death whos purpose is for the ending of suffering. Although this is the one and only definition for the word "euthanasia".

Although I don't like the term "put down", it is in Webster's dictionary as "to do away with (as an injured, sick, or aged animal)".

Dismas

Terminated sounds a bit brutal to me, and euthanized seems very euphemised :) I changed it to 'put down', definitely the best choice of words and universally understood in British English. Wasn't sure if it would be similarly used in other forms of english - perhaps not. Worldtraveller 16:56, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Euthanized is a good word. They use it as a more formal alternative to "put down" with pets. Euthanasia probably has different moral significance with most people when used for animals as opposed to people. raptor 12:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

First:

>>In unvaccinated humans, untreated rabies is almost invariably fatal.<<

This sentence does not make much sense. What is treatment? Cold-water pack on your forehead, two pills of placebo twice a day or post-bite vaccination? So I made it read more precise.

Second:

The news about Jeanna Giese must not be hidden inside the bulk of the article! I gave here one line right after the above quoted sentence.

It's hardly 'hidden' - any interested reader can find it, a section entitled 'recently publicised cases' is clear enough. You're right the first bit needed clarification though, I've also tweaked it a bit and hope it is clearer now. Worldtraveller 01:32, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tragedy in Germany: six transplants have rabies

Terrible tragedy looms in Germany: more recent news say all six transplants have rabies now. Added to the article. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4271453.stm

Mentioned in FoxTrot

This article was mentioned in a FoxTrot comic strip (the image) about Wikipedia today (May 7 2005), though it obviously didn't get the same attention that Warthog did as a result [1]. Just thought I'd mention it. --Phoenix-forgotten 17:52, 2005 May 7 (UTC)

Islands

"Many territories, such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, Hawaii, and Guam, are free of rabies"

Given that the United Kingdom is a nation spread across both Great Britain and part of Ireland, and that Ireland is an island, not a nation, this would be better off as "such as the United Kingdom, Republic of Ireland..." or, alternatively, as ""such as Great Britain, Ireland...". Given the choice, and that it's a case of me being a little pedantic, I'd value a second opinion before changing it. Mullet 20:30, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

This isn't actually particularly simple. "Republic of Ireland" is only the official "description" of the state comprising 5/6s of the island of Ireland. The actual name of the state is Ireland (Éire).

I use the term state here rather than nation, as that is a separate matter (nations in that region generally mean England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland).

"Republic of Ireland" is less ambiguous, but rather more awkward a title than "Ireland".

Wikipedia has extensive detail on the history behind all this and the naming issues at the articles Ireland, Éire, Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland, United Kingdom, Home Nations. Happy reading.

Just to make this comment more relevant to the article, I wonder should we mention in the introduction paragraph the areas of the world where rabies is not present - or at least that it's present in much/most of the world?

zoney ♣ talk 21:30, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

--OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 05:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)== Contradiction ==

In November 2004, Jeanna Giese, a 15-year old girl from Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, became one of only six people known to have survived rabies after the onset of symptoms. All of the other five received vaccination before symptoms developed.

It says "six people known to have survived rabies after the onset of symptoms", then it says "all of the other five received vaccination before symptoms developed". Did they have the onset of symptoms or not, or did they receive the vaccine then symtoms developed despite having the vaccine? It is very vague. --ShaunMacPherson 07:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Jeanna Giese: bite, symptoms, vaccine, survival.

other five: bite, vaccine, symptoms, survival. - Nunh-huh 07:11, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Did Jeanna receive vaccines? I thought she was given antiviral medication. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 05:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hydrophobia

Why is rabies also called Hydrophobia? Doesn't that mean 'fear of water'?

This explanation from the Merck Manual states the following: "The spasms can be excruciatingly painful. A slight breeze or an attempt to drink water can trigger the spasms. Thus, a person with rabies cannot drink. For this reason, the disease is sometimes called hydrophobia (fear of water)." --Arcadian 21:10, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a person can develop the spasms (which can cut off breathing) upon just thinking about drinking--as a sort of conditioned reflex. What hastens this is excessive salivation and inability to swallow it. This is why rabid animals may foam at the mouth. Myron 23:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The actual mention of the word 'hydrophobia' in the article seems to be wrong. It implies that 'The production of large quantities of saliva and tears coupled with an inability to speak or swallow are typical during the later stages of the disease' is hydrophobia. Any reasons why I am wrong? Zetetic Apparatchik 18:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Increased Strength? Violent?

Three questions. Is it true that rabies gives the victim bursts of increased strength? Next, why does rabies turn the animal violent? And finally, is it known for humans to suffer from these violent outbursts as seen in other animals (for example do they bite other people)?

I had inserted a small excerpt in the beaver under Beaver Attacks. Rabies appears to embolden, thusly appears to make, the infected host to be stronger, to lunge after other animals/humans. Egberts 09:21, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't increase muscle mass, so it cannot make someone who is infected stronger. It will only make them more aggressive. It is a psychological impression of someone else being stronger than before when you see them be more agressive against others. --OrbitOne ^[Talk|Babel] 05:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Detection & Questions about Incident

Is there a way to tell if a cat has rabies, so that I can not be afraid of approaching that animal? In other words, are there cases where a cat would not show the typical signs of having rabies (agression, drooling, rabid), but still have it? Perhaps in the very early stage of it getting the virus (or maybe even during vaccination)? Also, if a cat is vaccinated, thus showing no signs of having rabies; if you are scratched/bitten by the cat, would you still get rabies? I was recently playing with this neighbourhood cat, (it had a collar and seemed to be either currently domesticated, or WAS domesticated but escaped and is now feral); however, that doesn't really matter, since the cat could STILL have rabies. The cat showed no signs of having rabies (typical signs); I am unaware of other symptoms, so I'm unsure... The cat had accidentally scratched me very slightly; and it was only later that I noticed the skin had a trace amount of blood; as tiny as a paper cut. I'm thinking a scratch of that small magnitude can still deliver rabies? Also, the cat has a habit of taking hold of your hand, and giving it a gentle "gnaw" or bite; sort of in a playful manner. I don't believe any blood was drawn, but some skin was scratched; similar to when a person scratches his own hand with his nails; not enough to draw blood, but still a scratch... Again it was until later had I noticed this, so IF blood was drawn, it may have already healed/been washed off. Based on what I've seen; and the little I know about this particular cat or rabies-symptoms in general, I'm thinking the cat may STILL have rabies (albeit there are no symptoms), and am afraid that his playful bite/gnawing or accidental scratch may have transfered rabies to me. I am also worried about other diseases like cat scratch fever, etc.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.6.222 (talk • contribs)

exceptionally aggressive

Why does Rabies cause infected animals to be exceptionally aggressive? --Abdull 10:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Good question. Presumably because of some combination of pain and confusion caused by delirium? Gzuckier 13:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

According to The Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine, the second stage of clinical rabies in dogs is the excitative stage. Dogs become hypersensitive to external stimuli and react by biting at anything or anyone close to them. This is known as furious rabies. Wild animals with rabies actually lose their natural inhibition of approaching humans, and may appear more friendly than normal. --Joelmills 01:18, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Update- there WAS one human death from raccoon rabies strain.

In Nov 2003 there was one confirmed human death in Virginia and the article is mirrored on CDC's website[2]. A second source from this year [3] states that this was the only one. I changed the sentence that said there were no cases, but I only cited the sources embedded. I don't know how to do footnotes.JeffStickney 01:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and footnoted it. --Joelmills 03:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Dormant Rabies Transmission

I wonder whether rabies can be transmitted when the it is still dormant in the infected animal without any symptons. Suppose a cat is bitten by a rabid dog and is thus infected, how soon the bite of the cat be infectious as well? Immediately? After a couple of hours? Or only after symptons begin to show? I can't find this in the article.

The answer to this is a little more clear in Dog health#Diseases and ailments. A dog or cat with rabies is not infectious until a few days before symptoms appear. It can take months for symptoms to appear after being bitten by a rabid animal. The general rule is that the further away from the brain the bite occurs, the longer it will take to show symptoms. --Joelmills 19:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Does this mean that if someone is bitten by a dog or cat, and the dog or cat does not show any symptom after one or two weeks, the person is free of rabies?

Yes, 10 days is the legal requirement for impoundment of the animal here in Illinois. --Joelmills 02:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Rabies vaccine?

How much does a rabies vaccine cost?Doesn't the government pay for it?

Post-exposure prophylaxis

The distinction between immunoglobulin and vaccine wasn't clear to me, so I added a sentence explaining how the immunoglobulin is administered (1/2 at the site of the bite if possible and 1/2 and a distant site). I think it's also important to point out that immunoglobulin should not be administered to persons who've received pre-esposure vaccination.

I moved the mention of washing the wound to the beginning of the discussion because to emphasize the importance of this.

The mention of domestic animal vaccination was added because that is just as important if not more important at decreasing the death rate of rabies as is post-exposure prophylaxis.

Loupe 21:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Ecological effect

Missing in this article is description of any ecological impact of rabies. An unreliable source just told me that a recent racoon rabies epizootic in northeast Pennsylvania has decimated the racoon population resulting in marked increase in wild turkeys (whose eggs are eaten by racoons). Was there actually an upsurge in racoon infection and did this significantly affect the population in a manner at all comparable to the impact of canine distemper? Myron 10:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Non human animals

Great article, however its rather ironic that in the Transmission by bite section, it says "non-human animals". Yes, I know we are animals, but isn't it rather ironic to say this? Bhaveer 21:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any irony in that statement 64.236.245.243 15:46, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I second the sentiment, all the references to non-humans in place of animals or "human hunters" is just wierd. Is there any chance this could be fixed?

Image of Man Infected

Does anybody else feel scared after looking at the image of the man infected with rabies? --Faraz Parsa 02:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Transmission other than bite

On the Australian bat lyssavirus Wiki, it says "ABLV has caused two human deaths. The first occurred in November 1996 when an animal carer was scratched [which I assume pierced the flesh] by a yellow-bellied sheathtailed bat." is this only related to the ABLV, or can all strands of Lyssavirus be transmitted though scratches? RooZ 18:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Virtually all cases of human rabies are acquired by a bite. But there are rare cases after scratches, abrasions or the licking of open wounds. Human rabies has also been documented after respiratory exposure in a cave with rabid bats in Texas, presumably from aerosolized saliva. And persons have been infected by accidentally aerosolized virus in research laboratories. Loupe 21:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Rash of Vandalism

Anyone have any idea why this article is being vandalized so frequently? no DrGaellon 21:25, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you point out the vandalism? Having read the entire article, I now wonder what is true and what is false...209.83.47.123 22:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Rabies in the United States

Domestic animals constitute only 8% of rabies cases, but are increasing at a rapid rate.[9]

Actually, the incidence of rabies in domestic animals in the US has been fairly constant since about 1985. For example, in 2005, domestic animals accounted for 7.7% of all cases, a 9.2% decrease from the total reported in 2004. Also, the reference (9) for this statement is out of date (1996). I suggest changing to: "Domestic animals constitute approximately 8% of rabies cases"

Ref: Blanton JD, Krebs JW, Hanlon CA, Rupprecht CE. (2005) Rabies surveillance in the United States during 2005. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2006 Dec 15;229(12):1897-911. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=citation&list_uids=17173527&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Loupe 19:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)