User talk:IvanScrooge98

Translation?

Would you be willing to translate a short article on Bianca Bagnarelli into Italian? She is an up-and-coming Italian illustrator, living in Bologna, and it seems a shame to me that her article only appears in English Wikipedia. All the references are current, and two are already in Italian! ubiquity (talk) 13:45, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ubiquity: of course, just as soon as I have some time! I’m sorry for the late reply but I’ve recently been in some trouble and still might not always be able to edit promptly. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ubiquity: looks like I did it :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 11:26, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much! It looks great! ubiquity (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

IPA

Hi. Would you mind adding the Italian IP to the Italian organizations missing IPA here Template:Organized crime groups in Europe? Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: yep, when I have some time to check them out (hopefully soon) ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 09:00, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: did it! イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

Would you mind checking over some of the IPAs I've added. Especially Al Pacino. You can see some others in my contributions. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: done ;) most were perfectly fine. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for all the help. I hope you don't mind if I ask you to look over a few more for me? I've done the families myself Cotroni crime family, Papalia crime family, Musitano crime family, Luppino crime family and Rizzuto crime family, Gotti, but if you could please check it over, also for the families of the Five Families. If you have the time, would you be able to go through the names at Category:Canadian mobsters of Italian descent? I think it would be much quicker than me going through them. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: no problem, I’ll check those too. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC) However, never forget the stress mark and remember [ɛ] and [ɔ] are never unstressed. ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:51, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Yeah, it's always the stresses that I confuse. I've done some more if you can take a look at my contribs. Also, if you want to help with Italian footballer IPAs as you go along, you can see List of Italy national football team captains, followed by the longer list List of Italy international footballers. Obviously the latter list will be a work in progress. Saluti, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 00:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: alright, as soon as I can. Meanwhile, I am going to ask you to please avoid add more yourself because a lot of those had wrong stress and/or length mark, some even lacking the correct IPA letters, and I frankly do not find enough time in this period to constantly go through them to fix them. Hope you understand. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. For Tony Sirico where you said you couldn't find sources? What's your go to source for IPAs? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 14:57, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: I use the DOP and DiPI, linked to at the bottom of Help:IPA/Italian. And since Sirico is a surname I never heard of, I definitely needed a reference to know the correct stress. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:05, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for that. DiPI looks good. Not every name is there but a sizeable amount are; I'll definitely consult this in the future before adding IPA. Although it doesn't seem to show the : stresses? Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:13, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: well, no, it’s based on IPA but it’s not as closely phonetic as the one we use here, so long vowels (occurring in stressed non-final open syllables) are not marked; by the way, the correct symbol is ː, not :. Also, DiPI uses older IPA ligatures for /dz/, /tʃ/ etc., but keep in mind that we transcribe double affricates as /ddz/ rather than /dzdz/. Bye :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I know it's ː I was just too lazy to open up a page to copy and paste it lol. Does Cristian Zaccardo not need a second d for dz? I too am studying - at the University of Toronto - for sciences though, although I did take an intro to English linguistics course which I found very interesting. It didn't focus on stresses too much, mainly just the phonetic alphabet. Being a native English speaker with only a basic understanding of Italian, it is sometimes challenging to identify stresses and ɔ vs o, but I am trying to get more familiar with the concepts; it will take time. I know I'm not qualified to add IPAs myself right now without checking in some way, but when I see something that looks like it might need fixing or something that would improve this project, it'd be a shame to let it go without asking a more qualified person. I guess it's not fair to you to ask for large volumes of IPA checks, but I hope you don't mind a couple here and there as I realize you do a lot for IPA here and probably wouldn't mind doing so if it improves the project we have here; some of the names I brought up did need fixing for some time at their name pages like Maurizio, which also benefited by your fix :). I saw the IPA at Briscola as "o", should it be "ɔ"? Could you also take a quick look at Scopa and Cornicello? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 19:04, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: don’t worry, you are always very kind and as soon as I can I will start it off. Alright, it’s just /dz/ for Zaccardo as it does not follow a vowel, and it’s /ˈbriskola/ as the O is unstressed and thus can never be open-mid. Let me have a look at the other pages. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 19:28, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Mind looking at Frances Nunziata and Anthony Perruzza Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Hey thanks for getting started on the footballers! :) Could you take a look at Charles Ponzi, thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 21:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: sometimes I get some spare time to take a look at those ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 21:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Would you be able to add the Sicilian IPA to Russo? I've also started looking at some of the top criminals in Italy (List of most wanted fugitives in Italy) IPAs on DiPl, however several are not there. This is another smaller list that we could perhaps knock out faster. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:17, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: yep, just as soon as I get some time I will check that list too. ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:29, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I was surprised not to see the Sicilian IPA for Sicily, Catania, Messina, Agrigento and Syracuse, Sicily, if you are able. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 23:08, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I will do that too then. Catania’s one would actually look the same as for Italian though. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi. Could you take a look at John Cabot (confirming his Venetian name from the origins section, and also including the the names in the lead with IPA as we usually do...(born Giovanni Caboto; .....), and his son Sebastian Cabot (explorer). Thanks and have a good weekend. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 03:48, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: done; also the Venetian name should be correct, even though it clearly uses the original Medieval spelling. Have a nice weekend, too! イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:38, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi and Happy Easter. When able, can you please review the changes of [1] and [2]? Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 11:30, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: happy Easter! Actually both ways of transcribing are correct, though in Italian s+consonant clusters are normally considered part of the same syllable (for this reason I usually transcribe as that editor did). However, a syllable followed by s+consonant is phonetically a close syllable, meaning the s belongs to the previous rather than the following one. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:23, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Ok, perhaps you can add both accepted ways. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:43, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: actually it’s the same pronunciation with a slightly different transcription, just as [ˈsotːo] for [ˈsotto]. So having two would mean being redundant. Cheers, イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:41, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Hi there. Could you take a look at Luca Banti, Gianluca Rocchi, Paolo Tagliavento, Massimiliano Irrati, Edoardo Bosio? And also a reminder about List of most wanted fugitives in Italy, unless you're too busy. Thanks. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 16:18, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: oops, you are right, I had forgot after looking at the first articles in the list. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:21, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, eh. Could you also do the family names of Inzerillo Mafia clan and Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan, Lupara bianca, and Category:People murdered by the Sicilian Mafia, Category:People murdered by the 'Ndrangheta, Category:People murdered by the Camorra and subcats? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: no worries, when I can I will. Sorry again for my forgetfulness. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:22, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

No worries at all. Sorry to hit you with all this but I recently created all of the remaining ~60 redlink national team player pages and was hoping you could add the IPAs, you can see all my creations in a row here. No rush at all. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:56, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: I must have done it all. :) I also fixed a little something here and there, mainly due to overlooking. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:52, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi. For 'Ndrina and 'Ndrangheta, wouldn't it make sense to have the Calabrian IPA stated in prose as well as it is Calabrian not Sicilian. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:25, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: the thing is, Central-Southern Calabrian is classified as a Sicilian dialect. However, I could implement the template so that it can show the label Calabrian instead. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 06:49, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Hey, hope you've been well. I was taking another look at Help:IPA/Italian, and I noticed something for "a". It lists the English approximation as "father", but I feel like this is somewhat inaccurate. With the examples given, alto and sarà, but even for something like pasta, I don't think these vowels always sound like the one used in father. The "a" in sarà does sound a little closer to father than the "a" in pasta though, doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "a" sound in Italian sounds more sharp and quick - literally pasta, not like how fahther sounds not pahsta. I think something like bat would be a better approximation, although still not exact. What do you think? Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:10, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: hi! I kind of agree with you, but I think father was chosen because it probably provides a closer approximation in a wider number of accents than bat would do, if we consider /æ/ tensing. Nevertheless, pasta might be a good compromise, I guess, as I have seen elsewhere in help pages. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 06:22, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

How about apple, that seems like the best overall. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:25, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: I think it’s like having bat. Maybe you should start a discussion at the page talk, so to involve users who are better experts of English phonology than us. ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 15:42, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi. Could you add something like the sentence from Stefano "It is a common tendency amongst English-speakers to mispronounce the name Stefano by placing the stress on the penultimate syllable (i.e. /stəˈfɑːnoʊ/), whereas the correct Italian pronunciation places the stress on the first one: [ˈsteːfano]." to Esposito? English-speakers tend to pronounce it like in this video at 0:52. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:32, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: hello! Sure, no problem. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 06:35, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Hey do you have a source for the English pronunciation for Stefano, a user added a tag. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 15:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: I think he did for the whole sentence, i.e. we should find a source stating that the common English pronunciation stresses the A. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 15:36, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'll see if I will be able to find any. Also, that user added some IPAs to Foscari, Vendramin family . Loredan, Dandolo, but didn't use the template or convention. Could you please fix them. Thanks Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 17:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Vaselineeeeeeee: thank you. I will. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:59, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Hey can you put the IPA for Sciòscio (nap.) at Ciocia - I put all the pronunciations in a note, but this one was missing. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 04:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi! This may be outside the realm of something you might want to do, but I was hoping you could translate a page for me, but it may take some time. I recently finished overhauling the page of Tommaso Buscetta using it.wiki as a template, and I'm pretty happy with it as it was terribly sourced before. I then turned to Bernardo Provenzano and Salvatore Riina, both of which are undersourced and have a refimprove banner. I looked at Provenzano first, having to add a rewrite banner, I fixed up the early life section, however the rest of the article is pretty bad chronologically and pov speaking, and trying to crossreference with it.wiki is proving to be a difficult task for me. Riina's article isn't terrible as it at least chronologically in order, Provenzano's is just a mess. Would it be possible for you, at your own pace, translate the sections Anni sessanta, Anni settanta, Anni ottanta, Anni novanta, Anni 2000, Anni 2010 (using your judgement which parts and sources to keep from en.wiki)? Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 01:00, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi Vaselineeeeeeee! I may do that, but I am a little busy these days and don’t get the time to do consistent edits like those you are proposing. I will let you know as soon as I do, though. ;) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:22, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Hey, I haven't seen you around in a while—hope everything's okay. Just letting you know that I recently had some time to overhaul Provenzano's page, so it's done. Un presto buon Natale a te! Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 22:04, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Catania's Influence on Adelaide

I thought I would bring the discussion regarding the Catania article here; I'm not saying that this information isn't valuable at all (I should not have removed the section entirely), but I don't think that it should be its own section altogether. Perhaps it could be worked into the Geography or History section? No other city articles have their influence on other city layouts in their own section, so I think their precedence should be followed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.193.1.4 (talk) 19:00, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

No problem, maybe I sounded too harsh. I was thinking about making it a substection, too, but I didn’t dare to place it elsewhere. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 20:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

About italian IPA references

​​Hi IvanScrooge98, I pinged you on a discussion about a recent case of sockpuppeting and related removal of relevant sources.Various waves of sockpuppets are reiteratedly changing italian IPA transcriptions and in certain cases they are also removing the references that confirm the version they are not happy with. You can see the concerned SPI cases here and here. Summarising, before reverting all the edits made by those socks, we wanted to be sure that the dictionary given as reference is a reliable source and if there is more alternative sources to further confirm the current version. Please note that in most cases the only available source has been added by another sockpuppet group related to ZenZung. As mentioned in the discussion where I pinged you from, the discussed source is dipinoline.it. Your comment on this subject would be very appreciated. Horst Hof (talk) 14:38, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: yes, I had noticed but haven’t had the time to leave a reply until now. :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 15:33, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Ukiyo-e

RE: this: the "point" is that IPA gives a pronunciation that those who do not know language-specific spelling systems can use; many mistakenly pronounce ukiyo-e as "you-kee-oh-eh". The IPA you gave is problematic as (a) it includes pitch marks—pitch varies widely across Japan; (b) it is overspecific, giving very precise pronunciation when it is only supposed to be a general pronunciation guide (one generalized so that it can be applied easily to either an English or Japanese pronunciation). The articles does not fall under linguistics, and the IPA you gave does not serve a purpose appropriate to the target audience. It was moved from the opening line as many complain that parentheticals—particularly lengthy ones—disrupt the openings of too many articles.

Please keep in mind that this is a FA, and a lot of thought and effort has been put into its presentation. If a "Why would anyone do this?" sort of question comes to you with such an article, you might want to find out first. As you can see, these decisions weren't arbitrary. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: ehm, I don’t think it is overspecific at all, it just follows the help page it links to, where one can get all the explanations they need. I understand not having it in the lead, but why leaving a “pronunciation” note that looks like simple syllabification of the term? Also, there is plenty of articles with IPA for names and terms one may not be familiar with, regardless of their topic. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 09:17, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

"why leaving a “pronunciation” note that looks like simple syllabification of the term?"—I just explained that.

"I don’t think it is overspecific at all"—for the purpose, yes, it is ridiculously so—particularly the pitch marks. It is meant to give the reader a very generalized pronunciation guide that can be mapped to either Japanese or whatever English dialect they happen to speak. If you dislike this, then the onus is on you to demonstrate why this may be inappropriate, and why a more hairsplitting IPA representation would be more helpful to the target reader.

"there is plenty of articles with IPA for names and terms one may not be familiar with, regardless of their topic"—as there is for Ukiyo-e. What are you saying?

The English "pronunciations" are all inappropriate—this has been discussed before, and it has been found that there is no "standard" English pronunciation of ukiyo-e in any dialect. Some sources stress the final syllable, others the penultimate, etc, etc.

There are also accessibility issues with moving the pronuciation to an endnote.

Please understand, we have been through this, and the pronunication is presented the way it is for a reason. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:36, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Please also remember that a source can be required for an IPA, particularly as in this case where there is a dispute. WP:OR arriving at one editor's preferred option using a Wikipedia help page as a source is not acceptable.SovalValtos (talk) 03:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: I was saying there is plenty of articles with IPA transcriptions and IMHO this one does not look any more specific than the others. Also, my point was: the average reader would look at /u.ki.yo.e/ and think: “Wow, thanks for hyphenating the word for me” rather than understand they are not supposed to pronounce a Y-sound at the begininnig, while having a [Japanese, as the word is Japanese] IPA linking to a page which explains it all is pretty different. Thus, where was this whole thing discussed? I’d like to try and change the consensus because I strongly think this option is not helpful at all. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:51, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

And @SovalValtos: don’t worry, I do have a reference for that. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:52, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Found it. No consensus and not even an actual talk: just a question and a reply. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:12, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

It was discussed at WP:JAPAN and a couple of other locations, as well as the problem of "having a source" for the pronunciation. Different sources give different pronunciations, as you yourself have already demonstrated with the two sources you've given. Other sources have the stress on the penultimate, and other sources give British pronunciations. wikt:浮世絵 gives two separate pitch patterns (both sourced) for the Tokyo dialect alone. The sources don't agree, so we provide a pronunciation guide that doesn't conflict with the sources and reaches the widest possible audience for the intended purpose.

"the average reader would look at /u.ki.yo.e/ and think: “Wow, thanks for hyphenating the word for me”"—uh ... no. Why would they do that?

"I was saying there is plenty of articles with IPA transcriptions and IMHO this one does not look any more specific than the others."—I honestly have no clue what you're trying to express here. Ukiyo-e has IPA, and what does "specific" have to do with the discussion?

You also will want to keep in mind that there is a large number of editors who are trying to get IPA banaished from article leads in general—such discussions happen at WP:MOS somewhat frequently. These are supposed to be merely simple pronunciation guides, but being overly pedantic with them makes them less accessible, which gives these people more fuel for their campaign. They've successfully removed the IPA from quite a number of articles already. Please don't contribute to this mess and make our articles less informative and helpful to our readers. Anyone who wants a precise phonetic representation can find [ɯ̟ᵝkʲijo̞e̞] at wikt:浮世絵#Japanese—the pronunciation guide given serves another purpose and far broader audience. Please show some respect for that. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: whatever; I just tried to say I’m pretty sure the average reader will not think they are reading a pronunciation transcription when they see that, so I find it useless, rather than a simplification. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:38, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: just noticed it is actually using IPA now. A step forward. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:41, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

It was always IPA, just with a typo.

"I’m pretty sure the average reader will not think they are reading a pronunciation transcription"—why? What else are they supposed to interpret the slashes as (here or anywhere else on Wikipedia)? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 23:19, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

@Curly Turkey: a typo that made it look like anything but IPA. At least now we have a proper phonemic transcription. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 05:41, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

y is IPA—it was just the wrong character, and a really obvious and easy-to-make mistake (one I've corrected myself elsewhere). If that one character were the whole issue, then none of this would ever have happened. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

March 2019

Please do not add or change content, as you did at Renato Cesarini, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. A wikipedia help page is not a reliable source SovalValtos (talk) 05:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@SovalValtos: references are always from the two websites at the bottom of Help:IPA/Italian, which I constantly browse; I simply did not bother to put single citations for all the IPAs I was asked to add. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@SovalValtos: as you can see here, it is perfectly fine to adapt IPAs to the help (actually, we are always supposed to do that, considering they were thought to match). イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:10, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

@SovalValtos: WP:Don't template the regulars. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 12:38, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Expertise needed

Hi IvanScrooge98, would you be so kind to dedicate a bit of your time to check the following diffs (this and this)? I was about to fix the edits the IPA-disruptor did as unlogged IP during the last weeks and found these edits where no source is given and to be honest I'm not able to assess if the change is correct or not. If you confirm that these changes do not comply with Help:IPA/Italian, I will systematically revert them as soon as I will find that again in the future. Thanks in advance. Horst Hof (talk) 08:35, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: yes, they were definitely disruptive, insisting on negating syntactic gemination. Thank you a lot, too bad edits like these are so frequent. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi again IvanScrooge98, I'm here to ask your help again. The IPA-disruptor is back and this time targeted the articles dedicated to Alighiero Noschese and Giorgio Scerbanenco. As concerns the first one, their edit seems acceptable, I checked the sources they provided in the edit summary and seem to confirm their version, thus I added the sources accordingly. On the other hand, the edit they made at the second article seems the same situation that you called syntactic gemination, would you be so kind to spend a bit of your time to check that? I also noticed that the transcription of the first name Giorgio differs from what dipionline.it states in the third symbol (o vs. ɔ) thus it will possibly need to be fixed too. Sorry for bothering again with this story and thanks again for your kind help. Horst Hof (talk) 07:11, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: I usually edit according to DOP, which is more conservative and therefore only allows [ˈdʒordʒo]; for the same reason, Noschese is only given there as [noˈskeːse], while DiPI also features [noˈskeːze]. Regarding Scerbanenco, it starts with /ʃ/, which is always double after a vowel in Italian (so not really a case of syntactic gemination, as it is triggered both at word boundaries and inside a word). As soon as I can, I will fix those bothersome edits. Thank you. :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: oh, by the way, this even contains the symbol ⟨⁺⟩ which means just what I was telling you, so that user is even citing the sources wrong. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:24, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your comments. I hope you have nothing against if, from time to time, I will ask you for a comment on this topic, since this story doesn't seem to be getting closer to an end. Cheers and thanks again. Horst Hof (talk) 08:01, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: don't worry, hopefully all of us won’t just have to keep correcting them. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:07, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi IvanScrooge98, thanks for helping me in reverting sock's edits as you did at Agustín Calleri and others. In the meantime I found more possible vandalic edits at Zucchetti, Zuccarello and Zucca (aperitif), where an anonymous user removed parts of IPA transcription and you were the last user to edit those articles. Would you be so kind to have a check if it is worthwhile to revert them? Thanks in advance, Horst Hof (talk) 08:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: thank you for promptly reporting this! Technically, both pronunciations are equally possible, and those with /ts/ are actually the most traditional ones. So yes, edits like these should be reverted. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:21, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you, and invitation!

		The Linguistic Barnstar
		For assisting me in recent times and offering advice, as well as the work you do in general for linguistics here. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

	Hello, IvanScrooge98. You are invited to join WikiProject Linguistics, a WikiProject and resource dedicated to improving Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to Linguistics. Please check out the project, and if interested feel free to join by adding your name to the member list. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

No good

I'm sorry to have to say that I very strongly object to whet you did here. To me, that (including the removel of good sources) is nothing less that destructive editing. We are supposed to make it easier, not harder , for readers of English who do not know Swedish, to learn relevant facts. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: I don’t see what you are talking about and why you are being so harsh. First, I removed nothing and second, I did that to avoid having too many commas, but it’s also perfectly fine to me the way it is now. Have a nice day. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 16:55, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I am only going by what the edit history shows. Between two edits, both yours, both of the well-sourced English exonyms disappeared. Look for yourself! If somehow I'm wrong, I apologize. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: are you serious? Disappeared? You can see for yourself I simply moved them to a footnote; you could as well (as you did) place them back where they used to be or start a discussion on where they are supposed to stay. Anyway I am not going to discuss this any longer. Things are just fine now. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:07, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Disappeared from the lead, is what I obviously meant. Please do not remove any well-sourced exonyms from the lead of any article. I appreciate pronunciations being kept in footnotes (as a rule), but not bolded, well-sourced exonyms that have been in place for a long time. Dalecarlia redirects to Dalarna. It is normal then to have that exonym bolded in the lead. Again, I apologize for being harsh & making you so irritated. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:16, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Possible?

Hello again! Please explain your addition of the word "possible" here. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:45, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: oh gosh, I just meant alternative alongside Dalarna, which is so widely used it is the title of the article itself. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 21:49, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Alternatively and possible have widely different meanings. That's why I asked. Wikipedia normally does not mention possible exonyms. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:35, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Non-stop Italian IPA disruptive edits

Hi IvanScrooge98, please, would you be so kind to cast an eyeball to this and this? It seems that the IPA disruptor is back after a short break. Comments? Horst Hof (talk) 09:32, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

@Horst Hof: I really don’t know what to think of this, (s)he even reverted their own disruptive edits. Though it might be the same coming back. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Naples lead sentence

Hi, Sorry for reverting your reversion, but you must agree that the leading sentence is MUCH better the way I edited.
There is no rule that says that the first sentence of an article should be completely unreadable. "Everybody does it" is absolutely not an excuse to make Wikipedia worse. Please ignore what "everybody does" and instead do what you think is best for the reader.
That, in fact, is the only rule that every editor should follow.
All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 00:44, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@Jorge Stolfi: “you must agree that the leading sentence is MUCH better the way I edited”. Well, I really don’t, I simply try to be as consistent as possible with other articles. But we can reach a compromise: I shall move most of that to a side note, as I did here, of course keeping the official and native names in the very lead. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:30, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

A side note is certainly better than putting all names and their pronuciations in a huge parenthesis between subject and verb.
However, please reconsider the question of "consistency". What good is it, really? Do you think any reader will be annoyed if the lead sentence of that article is MORE readable than that of most other articles?
Many irrational and counterproductive things, some of them bordering on unconscious vandalism, are done to poor Wikipedia for no better reason than "other editors have been doing that". If you track down the origin of any such bad convention, it is never a widely debated proposal with clear cost/benefit analysis. It is always someone started doing that to hundreds of articles, and then other editors mistook that thing for a Wikipedia rule and started doing the same.
Those bloated parentheses, for example, started when someone thought it would be nice to add the pronunciation to the head as it is done in dictionaries -- disregarding the real rule "Wikipedia is not a dictionary". Then other started to "improve" those pronunciation guides by adding etymology, Then came the "names in other languages", each with their pronuciations. The editor from Mongolia saw the name in Napulitano and in Greek, and naturally assumed that the name in Mongolian should be there too. And the guy from Taiwan saw that the Chinese name was in simplfied characters, and could not let it pass without adding the traditional characters too, and the gwoyeu romatzyh to balance the pinyin. And...
Which is even harder to forgive if one observes that in dictionaries the structure of each entry is "word [pronc & stuff], [category]: equivalent word", i.e. a line of a table, not a sentence. Whereas the lead of a Wikipedia article is "subject (long parenthesis) predicate", which was supposed to be a grammatical sentence...
All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 08:17, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Pinging for the above.

@Jorge Stolfi: I totally agree with you regarding the addition of non-native languages, I’d be the first kicking the Chinese name for Naples away from the article, but I’m in favor of keeping the native and historical names of a place. Where they are most welcome, of course. Thank you for your politeness. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:24, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I do agree that the native names should be given, even in the first paragraph. However, I see no reason why they (and their pronunciations!) have to be inserted in the same parentheses as the English pronunciation, rather than in a separate, well-formed sentence. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

@Jorge Stolfi: maybe because they have been judged side information (or information that could be easily shortened) in contrast to the introducing sentences of the article. Just guessing though. Regards, イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:39, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Indic Script

Please do not add any Indic script, to any of our India related articles, as you did at Gujarat, as this contravenes WP:NOINDICSCRIPT - Thank you - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

In ref to your edit summary here, that policy came to be because of ethnic warring between Indian editors in articles which had more than one Indian language terms in the lead. For example, in multi-lingual film articles, people used to fight for their chosen term to be displayed before. Similarly for historical empires too. Now there's a blanket ban . - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: oh my gosh, now I see why that only applies for Indian languages. Anyway, thank you for correcting me and explaining the policy. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 15:29, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Few years ago, I tried to add an "Indic" term which got reverted. Since then I enforce this policy with an "Iron" Fist. "Irony" ain't it? . Nice chatting with you. Regards - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

You are most welcome

Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Syllabic consonants

You need to watch them. Sequences such as *[mn̩] are impossible in both English and German. This edit, for instance, contains 3 mistakes: the IPA should read ⟨ˈ|b|r|eɪ|m|ə|n⟩, ⟨ˈ|b|r|ɛ|m|ə|n⟩ and ⟨ˈʃtatɡəˌmaɪndə ˈbʁeːmən⟩. In German, /ˈbʁeːmən/ reduces only to [ˈbʁeːm̩] and [ˈbʁeːm], neither of which are allowed in formal speech (at least not when you use them consistently).

See also [3]. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

tm̩ is also impossible. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

And so is ŋn̩. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:09, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Also, leːɐ̯ˈkuːzn̩ isn't the same as leːɐˈkuːzn̩. The former has three syllables, whereas the latter has four. The difference between [ɐ̯] and [ɐ] is phonemic in German. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 05:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I am very sorry; nonetheless, regarding [tm̩], the help page uses Atem as an example for [m̩]. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 06:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. Großem is a better example than these two (and it's not wrong). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 08:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

We use syllabic consonants in English (German, Danish, etc.) to facilitate pronunciation. There's very little reason to enunciate [ə] before [m, n, l] where a lengthened [mː, nː, lː] (conventionally transcribed [m̩, n̩, l̩]) are sufficient for these sequences to be understood for what they are: underlying /əm, ən, əl/. Germanic schwas already have a large allophonic variation (unless there's an additional phonemic /ɐ/ in the language, in which case the variation is somewhat smaller) and so it's no wonder that speakers of English, German, Danish etc. are ready to treat postconsonantal [mː, nː, lː] as /əm, ən, əl/. But [m̩, n̩, l̩] aren't used when realizing them instead of [əm, ən, əl] makes the pronunciation more difficult. In Atem, you have an alveolar (or dental) stop that would have to be nasally released into a bilabial nasal. I'm pretty sure that natives would consider that to be a speech defect and would describe it as pronouncing Ap'm instead of Atem. (but word-final instances of /t/ can assimilate to word-initial /p, b, t, k/ in German, just like in English. That's a different phenomenon though). Syllabic nasals following non-syllabic nasals of different place of articulation are a no-no as well, at least in those languages. I can't imagine a native speaker of German say [ˈbʁeːmn̩] and [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋn̩ˌboːlə]. The outcome of that would probably sound somewhat like Breb'n and Feuerzag'nbowle, with denasalized voiced stops. On the other hand though, [ˈbʁeːm̩] and [ˈbʁeːm] are perfectly fine (as long as we're not talking about formal speech), but I'm not sure whether Feuerzangenbowle can be pronounced as anything other than [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋənˌboːlə] (maybe [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋəmˌboːlə], with an assimilated /n/). Perhaps [ˈfɔʏɐtsaŋ̍ˌboːlə] is also fine, but I'm not sure about that. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

English

I have a question for you.

Do you know the rules of phonetics? Do you take into account the pronunciations of native speakers? Do you have or use the 3rd Edition of Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & the 18th Edition of Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary?

You do a very good job adding phonetics to these articles, but some of your post are in question, especially if it's related to English pronunciations. In the future, I will add & edit the source if it's related to the 3rd Edition of Longman Pronunciation Dictionary & 18th Edition of Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary.

If you have any questions about English pronunciations, you can ask one of the following users because they know & speak English majority of their lives: Kbb2, Dbfirs, Nardog, Wolfdog & myself included.

NKM1974 (talk) 08:41, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

@NKM1974: I know them, I just add IPA according to the sources I consult, which unfortunately often report different pronunciations from yours. In any case, if something is referenced, you should not remove it altogether, or at least please change the references if you also change the IPA. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 09:24, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

I wonder how they know we "know & speak English majority of their lives" (not to mention how wonderful it would be if that was something that made someone an expert in English phonetics and phonology). Nardog (talk) 11:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Hyvinge

You corrected the pronunciation of the Swedish name of Hyvinkää, Hyvinge, to contain a long y and tone 2. Do you have a source for this? I have always heard it pronounced with a short y (by both native and non-native speakers, locals and non-locals of Hyvinkää alike), in addition to which Finland Swedish does not distinguish between tone 1 and tone 2, so that addition also seems dubious. Qwerty12302 (talk | contributions) 12:08, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

@Qwerty12302: gosh, I’m sorry. I had changed the trabscription because it didn’t match the system used at Help:IPA/Swedish, but I have to admit I was so lazy I didn’t look up any source. I’m going to retranscribe it. Meanwhile, can you find any references? イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:32, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

@Qwerty12302: I don't know whether the first vowel is long or short, but if the pronunciation of that name is established in Stockholm Swedish as having the second toneme then that's how we need to write it. Doing otherwise would (or at least could) be a violation of WP:NPOV and the tonemic system is very easily convertible to the stress one: all you need to do is to treat ⟨²⟩ as synonymous with ⟨ˈ⟩. All dictionaries that provide pronunciation of Swedish words provide the Stockholm one, which is the most neutral Swedish pronunciation. It's also only logical to assume that most learners of Swedish learn Stockholm Swedish, just as most learners of Danish learn Copenhagen Danish and most learners of German learn Hannover German (if you can call the latter that way, you know what I mean). Now, whether they bother to learn to correctly produce the tonemes (and whether they succeed in that) is another story. We shouldn't make that choice for them. One of the most important roles of the IPA transcription of Swedish and Norwegian is to provide the information on tonemes and retroflex consonants. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:20, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment

The community has made it clear that use of certain four letter words is not automatically precluded as violations of our civility policy. That said, edit summaries are not a casual interaction on a talk page between a couple of editors who might know each other and know what types of language are mutually acceptable, they are prominently in the history of every article and likely to be read not just by the editor who has been corrected or reverted, but all other editors working on the article who might view the wording usage differently. It's my opinion that no action needs to be taken in terms of removal of any of the edit summaries but I thought you would want to know that some others feel it was worth bringing to your attention.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:02, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: I guess you are referring to a few summaries of mine when reverting persistent disruptive edits on IPA transcriptions. I am very sorry for letting myself get carried away. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 13:25, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

IvanScrooge98, Thanks for that response. I have gotten carried away myself, so know how it can happen. As an aside, I thought it might be better to drop this note to you in an email so it wasn't quite so prominent but I don't think you have email enabled. Of course, no editor is required to have email enabled and I suspect some do not because they don't want to be contacted that way but it's something you might consider. S Philbrick(Talk) 13:40, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Beowulf in Old English

Hi, I would like to query your recent edits to Beowulf and Beowulf (hero).

• Use of wynn in Old English: Bēoƿulf: I think w is preferable in line with Help:IPA/Old English. Wynn does not display on all devices and, according to wynn, has not been used in transliterating Old English since the early twentieth century.
• Bēoƿulf in infoboxes: I don't think this is necessary. I would prefer Bēowulf, but the macron over the e is a feature of modern texts rather than the manuscript. Have modern reliable sources used Bēoƿulf or Bēowulf as the title of the poem?
• PS: I am not an expert on Old English.TSventon (talk) 13:54, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@TSventon: oh, I’m not an expert either, I just tried to make the leads of the two pages a little more consistent with each other. I think the simple W-spelling is fine then. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:29, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that using the language templates is an improvement. I have now changed wynn to w. Are you happy for me to remove Bēowulf from the infoboxes? For example Alfred the Great doesn't have an Old Emglish version of his name in the infobox. Do you use Help:IPA/Old English to find an IPA equivalent of the Old English?TSventon (talk) 14:59, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

@TSventon: I think we should have Old English in the infobox, though I have no idea whether there is a specific policy about that. I often check IPA helps to make sure the symbols used in transcriptions match the ones on the linked page, but usually don’t dare to add IPA based on just those pages without prior knowledge on a language's phonetics. For example, I wouldn’t know where stress normally falls in Old English words. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 15:25, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

OK, leave the infoboxes then. I am glad to have found your talk page, a lot of editors with an interest in linguistics seem to have visited it. TSventon (talk) 09:31, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Question about the way you reference

I've noticed (mostly on Cameron Boyce, which is on my watchlist) that you add a number using the ref parameter when you use cite templates, and I was curious as to why? (I really took note of it because most references you've added have been edited by someone else to standardize the date (matching it to MDY in other references) and removing that parameter at the same time.) But I don't see people use that parameter often (even for the special harv reason) so I was curious as to why you use it, I guess. - Purplewowies (talk) 16:54, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Purplewowies: oh, you must be mistaking me someone else, I guess. I actually wondered the same thing when I saw that parameter, as I definitely never used it. I’ll check what it means, who added it and why. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Alright, seems it is an anchor ID you may use to repeat the citation, if I got it right, though it does not look really useful in our case. It was used by Scp1206 (talk · contribs) :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:57, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh! Whoops! I mistook the edit where you did something else that happened to highlight that reference in the diff (because it moved) as if you'd been the one to add it, even though I went past your user page on the way here and thought to myself "I don't remember that the time I clicked onto this person briefly last time. That'll teach me to look more closely at what's actually going on in an edit, particularly during the afternoon slump. Heh. - Purplewowies (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

@Purplewowies: hahaha, no worries really. We both found out something new. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 19:58, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I was using the template because I’m a bit inexperienced. I’m really sorry if that’s the wrong way to do it. I’ve just been adding any important info I’ve found. Again, I’m really sorry if I’ve done anything wrong. Scp1206 (talk) 01:47, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Scp1206: it’s fine, we just wanted to understand. Do not worry. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:36, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

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IPA at S.L. Benfica

Are you certain of the changes you made? SLBedit (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@SLBedit: I am. the relative help shows nasal dipthongs are only marked on the vocalic part, and per Portuguese phonology post-vocalic /b/ is realized as [β] in European Portuguese. ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:15, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Actually, now that I think of it, is [spɔɾ] even possible? Should it not be [ɨʃˈpɔɾ] instead? イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:21, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

The s is pronounced as se in semáforo. The or sound is different from the one in sport because we don't pronounce the t. SLBedit (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

We don't stress the "e" in the "s". SLBedit (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@SLBedit: oh, I thought you would add an epenthetic vowel at the beginning, as in Spanish, since /s/ + consonant never occurs at the start of a Portuguese word. Thanks a lot anyways. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:41, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

We read the s just like in English. Why the β? These sources ([4] [5]) show b. SLBedit (talk) 18:43, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@SLBedit: yeah, I checked those too, but they simply represent phonemic transcriptions rather than phonetic ones, meaning since [β] and [b] do not contrast and are variants of a single phoneme, they are always transcribed /b/ no matter what. Same goes for [ð] and [d], for instance. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Priberam reads sport (with English pronunciation) as ceporte. (We don't pronounce te.) SLBedit (talk) 18:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay, means we should add one symbol to the transcription. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:50, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Michelle Hunziker (pronunciation)

Dear Ivan,

Thanks for your comments, I will continue in Italian for simplicity.

Devo dissentire su quanto da te testé esposto in cronologia («in standard pronunciation only [e] and [o] are possible») in quanto affatto confacente al vero. Il ragionamento è fallace e Basta un qualsiasi buon dizionario - che sia di pronunzia, meglio; ma anche generico - ove è possibile ritrovare innumerevoli esempli codificati con quei i fonemi (detti "gergalmente" aperti) ovverosia /ɔ/ ed. /ɛ/ ; non a caso molteplici sostantivi omografi si differenziano semanticamente proprio per tali differenze vocaliche. Aggiungo inoltre, e faccio notare, come nel caso di specie non si stia analizzando un termine proprio della lingua italiana, bensì un cognome di nazionalità straniera, il che affievolisce oltremodo il ragionamento. Cordialità BOSS.mattia (talk) 23:09, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Pwr dimorar vicini al tema, Guardati su un "buon" dizionario...ad es. Alchermes, Arciere, bandiera, carriera... [...] son facilmente reperibili.

A disposizione BOSS.mattia (talk) 23:24, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

@BOSS.mattia: assolutamente vero, mi riferivo infatti alla pronuncia di E ed O in sillabe atone, come nel caso di Hunziker appunto, e come spiegato nella stessa pagina di aiuto verso la quale punta {{IPA-it}}. Credo per questo che sia fuorviante aggiungere [ˈhuntsikɛr] come possibile pronuncia, per quanto essendo un nome straniero ed essendo la sillaba con E in ultima posizione in una parola sdrucciola sia facile che questa tenda ad aprirsi. Ma se non vado errato qualcosa del genere è spiegato all’articolo Italian phonology, consultabile da chi si trova sulla pagine Help:IPA/Italian. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 08:25, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

in realtà, la "tendenza" cui fai menzione non giustifica la rimozione di tale pronunzia in voce, infatti, ciò che parimenti (e forse di più conta) è la codificazione e contemplazione di casi analoghi nei dizionari e grammatiche e altresì l' uso; su quest'ultimo infatti, nella pressoché assoluta maggioranza dei casi - lei stessa inclusa, mi pare - utilizzi la pronuncia con la "e aperta" /ɛ/ ;) Quindi, a mio avviso andrebbero quantomeno inserite ambedue --BOSS.mattia (talk) 17:49, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

@BOSS.mattia: ciò che la giustifica è infatti, come dicevo, quanto scritto nella pagina d’aiuto: /ɛ/ ed /ɔ/ sono solo toniche. Perché sia accettabile la trascrizione con la vocale medioaperta allora andrebbe modificata tale dicitura. Ti suggerisco di aprire una discussione all’apposita pagina, dimostrando che nella pronuncia standard è possibile avere [ɛ] ed [ɔ] atone in taluni forestierismi (ripeto, le pronunce, come suppongo quella della signora Hunziker, più o meno marcate da una cadenza regionale non sono di norma rappresentate; diverso sarebbe se, per esempio, lei pronunciasse il proprio nome spostandone l’accento su un’altra sillaba, il che avrebbe ricadute anche sulla pronuncia standard). イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:05, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

in realtà ciò che sto cercando di veicolare è che questo è un progetto Wikipedia e non un mero testo teorico, pertanto le scelte, implicazioni e conseguenze fattuali dell'uso da parte dei locutori non viene trascurato, bensì considerato e ponderato. Se noi ci si basasse sulla mera teoria, non avrebbe senso: punto 1. Parlare di pronunzia della lingua italiana, dacché tale e quale dimora solo nei manuali e invero alcuna regione o area collima con la medesima (di fatto: la si studia la dizione corretta, altrimenti alcun italiano la parlerebbe nativamente; con tutte le remore del caso poiché, anche chi di "dizione" ne mastica es. Teatro, cinema, tv... di rado la applica sempre e comunque "alla lettera"); punto 2. Si dà una rappresentazione fallace e assai ristretta (élitaria, mi siera passi il termine) della realtà, a detrimento della o delle pronunce realmente esistenti in italiano e fattualmente impiegate. ; punto 3. Viene meno il principio wikipediano e, parimenti - giusto per far un paragone - implicherebbe il celarsi gli occhi (e non solo) riguardo all'italiano neo-standard: se cosi fosse, stando alla tua rigida definizione, wikipedia dovrebbe essere totalmente riscritta poiche intrisa di quegli elementi e caratteristiche del neostandard, ch'altro non sono se non le mere applicazioni, usi e mutamenti d'una lingua fluida, viva e in continuo e costante evoluzione. Considerati tutti gli elementi testé proposto, consiglio una dedita riflessione in merito, prima di giungere anzitempo ad una conclusione ("personale")... si contempli la reciprocità della mutualità.. A disposizione BOSS.mattia (talk) 22:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

@BOSS.mattia: non sto affrettando le conclusioni, la questione è semplicemente che le trascrizioni fonetiche che puntano ad una pagina di aiuto ad essa devono rifarsi affinché siano comprensibili ai lettori che masticano poco o per nulla l’Alfabeto Fonetico. Perciò ti sto dicendo che non ho nulla in contrario ad una trascrizione del tipo [ˈhuntsikɛr] una volta che si è discusso e cambiata la guida in modo da ammetterne una simile, ma non prima. Rispetto ad altri usi “neo-standard” la questione è dunque alquanto diversa. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

One of your ...

... pronunciation thingies would come in handy, and is well needed for the regular reader of English, at the top of the lead here. I don't know how to do them properly, as you do. With English phonetics the word is pronounced like Bee-ellbow. Have a look? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

PS put it after the first mention of the word, and don't bother with -ätten. Thx. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: sure. Do you have any reference we can list for the English pronunciation? You know, just in case it is removed or anything. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 11:59, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

No, sorry, none other than my fluent Swedish. Only a Swede who thinks it's wrong would remove it, and since it's accurate as described, I doubt that would happen. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: don’t worry. I also added Swedish for the alternative name; btw, I think in this case the IPA is short enough to just be kept outside a note. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:18, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Well done! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Sorry

I misread your edit in the Giacomo Agostini article. Sorry about that.Orsoni (talk) 18:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

@Orsoni: no worries. I noticed you didn’t revert it anymore and I understood you had done it by mistake. :D イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 18:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

IPA

Thanks for the corrections to my IPA. I do know that [k] and [c] are different -- stupid error. --Macrakis (talk) 18:50, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

@Macrakis: you are welcome :) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 19:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for IPA on Canzo

Saluti, fratello~ I wanted to thank you and tell you how pleasantly surprised was to see how you filled out my tag for a Cáenz local dialect IPA on Canzo. I would have NEVER expected that anytime soon! Where did you learn such an apparently obscure dialect? Is this native as you know Lombard, or do you study local dialects as well? I absolutely adore and am fascinated by local dialects and want them to be preserved. :( Please link me any good resources you know to learn about them, do you read any books or sites about this kind of thing? Thank you again.~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 21:27, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sigehelmus: you are welcome! It feels good to be appreciated, but actually there has been a little of a ‘fight’ over the pronunciation (see the page history) also involving a user from Canzo. Apparently, the local dialect does not feature nasalization as Milanese or Western Brianzoeu (my dialect) do. And [kaːnts] would not fit the related IPA help, so I left a broader trabscription. When I saw the “needed” tag I thought I could reinstate the Canzés pronunciation using {{IPA-all}}, which is what I did. So basically it’s about two native Lombard speakers rather than books or anything about it. I actually wish there were any complete resources on the topic, of which I am very fond too. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 21:39, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Ahhh I see, I think I remember how I can relate to such conflict. :( It is interesting and I hope your transcription stays. Do you think you could try local transcriptions for every village with an article in this region, is that a goal of yours? I must confess, for my transcriptions I tend to rely on automatic sites band my limited self knowledge haha. I am glad I met someone else who seems to be similar to me here too. Also one more question: Can you tell me a sentence in the dialect you were born with? Like any casual sentence, how you were raised. That would be very fascinating and I wish I was born with my own - an ancient, distinctive one anyway. :)~Sıgehelmus♗_(Tøk) 21:48, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

@Sigehelmus: not really a goal, even though I sometimes provide the IPA for local names in Italy if I am sure of how I should transcribe it. As we have pointed out, it is difficult to do so without a reliable, possibly academic, source (looking forward to finding any someday). Well, I could tell you that semm anmò al camp di cent pertegh (a phrase loosely translating to “we still have a long way to go”) when it comes to Italian regional languages. ;) イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 07:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Nuremberg

"[ɐ̯] either everywhere or nowhere" is a false choice. No reputable source, apart from JIPA, uses [ɐ̯] after the short vowels. You may think that [ɐ̯] and the uvular approximant are similar because you're mistaking [ɐ̯] for "any non-syllabic central-to-back vowel", which it's not. German [ɐ̯] is [ɐ̯] or simply [a̯]. In German, /Vr/ is either vocalized or not, and the vocalization in this case is a replacement of the consonantal variety of /r/ with an open (not mid) central (not back) unrounded vowel. If the vowel is too close or too back, you're mishearing a uvular approximant for a vowel.

[aɐ̯] and [aːɐ̯] do not exist in German. These are either [aː] and [aː] (homophonous), [aʁ] and [aːʁ] (distinguished by length), [aʁ] and [aː] (distinguished by length and the presence vs. absence of [ʁ]) or [a(ː)ʁ] and [a(ː)ʁ] (again homophonous, with an approximant after the vowel but both vowels having variable length). It's a bad practice to write [aɐ̯].

The vocalization of /r/ in Standard German is variable after short vowels and mandatory after long vowels (perhaps excluding /aː/, but only sometimes). "[ɐ̯] nowhere" is a non-option. See [6] and especially the comments (click on "Show Comments" below the article), which show that [ɔɐ̯] might also be a controversial transcription ([ɔ] is articulated close to the uvular position, so producing [ʁ] after it is just a matter of unrounding your lips and slightly constricting the back of your tongue, rather than unrounding your lips and moving the tongue to the open central position where German /a/ resides.

I agree that this is something we should discuss on Help talk:IPA/Standard German. Actually there already is a discussion about this, here. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 09:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: I understand what you’re saying, but what I am suggesting is to be consistent with the transcription of syllable-final /r/ for vocalizing varieties, considering there seems to be variation (also implying, maybe explaining it in a note, that ⟨aɐ̯⟩ and ⟨aːɐ̯⟩ may actually be either of the realizations above); imagine if, e.g., for French phonemic /ʁ/ we didn’t always use the same symbol and instead chose to list [ʁ], [ʁ̞], [χ] and [χ˕] (afaik French uvular R tends to an approximant in syllable coda); we don’t because it just wouldn’t be practical for readers and because each realization is perfectly predictable based on the environment. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Still, I thank you for your recent edit on the help. It is useful to set a standard to follow. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 10:09, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, there is variation, but the uvular approximant seems to be the norm in careful speech, especially after close and mid vowels, but probably more so after the back ones than the front ones. It's in line with using [ɛː] as a vowel separate from [eː]. And again, no source (except for the JIPA article, to the best of my knowledge) writes /Vr/ (where "V" stands for a short vowel) as [Vɐ̯].

Could you revisit your edits in which you changed [ʁ] to [ɐ̯] and undo those changes to match the guide? They weren't really changes of [ʁ] to [ɐ̯] per help as the guide was ambiguous. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:45, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Kbb2: yes, I will try to review a bit when I can. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 11:52, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, that'd be much appreciated. The rule "don't write [ɐ̯] after short vowels" is a bit tricky in some cases (e.g. zerstören really is [tsɛɐ̯ˈʃtøːʁən] in careful speech, in ordinary speech it's [tsɐˈʃtøːʁən]). I'll list those exceptions in the guide. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 11:59, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

The rule is about /ɛr/ being vocalized to [ɛɐ̯] in unstressed prefixes er-, her-, ver- and zer-, as in SpVgg Greuther Fürth. The vocalization also occurs when there's another /r/ after /Vr/ (where V, again, stands for a short vowel), as in Dürrröhrsdorf-Dittersbach. The pronunciation [ˈdʏɐ̯ʁøːɐ̯sˌdɔʁf] (phonemically /ˈdʏr.røːrs.ˌdɔrf/) occurs because the sequence [ʁ.ʁ] is banned from occuring word-internally in Standard German (unless you speak with a Swiss accent - but that's not the Standard German we're talking about here). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 12:48, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

as agreed

You do realise that "as agreed" is a meaningless edit summary if you don't point to where the agreement was made. SpinningSpark 13:55, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

@Spinningspark: you are right, I’m sorry; I rushed a bit and didn’t link, but it started at Nuremberg as you see above and Kbb2 decided to be more specific in the help, so he edited it and now we are settling the transcriptions accordingly. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Your signature

Ruby is a bad idea. It gratuitously increases the height of the line that contains the signature. Nardog (talk) 15:27, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: Sorry. I will provide to edit it as soon as possible. ∼イヴァンスクルージ九十八（IvanScrooge98）_{（会話（ｔａｌｋ））} 15:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, but the ruby above the talk link is still affecting the line height. Nardog (talk) 08:38, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Apropos of nothing, whoever told you to change your signature misinterpreted Wikipedia:Signatures#Non-Latin usernames. It "encourages" those with non-Latin usernames to include a Latin rendition in their signatures, but it doesn't say you can't substitute a non-Latin name in your signature if you already have a Latin username. Otherwise Aeusoes1 (sorry to throw you under the bus!) and others would have to change their signatures. I'm not a fan of customized signatures, period, but just saying™ they were mistaken. Nardog (talk) 15:22, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

September 2019

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. --Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 07:15, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

How to ping

Just so you know, this doesn't fire off a notification to Ardalazzagal. A notification will be sent only if a link to a user page is included in a new line preceding a signature. See Help:Notifications and Help:Fixing failed pings. Nardog (talk) 19:12, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

A word of advice

I stayed away from the ANI thread partly because I have been staying away from all ANI threads of late, and partly because I know very little about Germanic languages that any linguist who happens to come from an English-speaking country wouldn't know and I hate when laymen attempt to adjudicate issues with editors making certain kinds of contents with Seems fine to me- or Doesn't seem fine to me-type rationales and I didn't want to be a hypocrite.

But it does seem like a large number of editors in this topic have a problem with your edits. So I'm going to give you a bit of advice (call it a "warning" if you so choose, I guess): stop doing what you've been doing. There was no consensus to topic ban you at ANI, but that is not the same as there being consensus that you did nothing wrong. I have seen editors repeatedly take "no consensus to topic ban" as an indication that they had not been in the wrong, and it didn't end well.[7]

Take my advice or leave it, but you really, really should do the former.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:39, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Hijiri88: thanks for the advice! But don’t worry, I’ll take the question very seriously from now on, and only proceed with editing when I know what I’m doing. I’ll be careful. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:26, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Japanese pronunciation of sashimi

Checking the background of the Japanese pronunciation given in the sashimi article, I discovered that you were the one to introduce the current transcription in 2015, changing [saɕimiꜜ] to [saɕi̥mi] ([8]). What was your reason for this change? Libhye (talk) 14:04, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Libhye: gosh, totally forgot about thay edit. I thought it was wrong, and I apologize for editing the transcription without properly checking the phonetics (e.g. vowel devoicing does not occur before nasals). 2019 me would have undone that, as [saɕimiꜜ] is definitely the correct one. Sorry again. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:09, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

@Libhye: regarding this, would you mind changing the note at Help:IPA/Japanese, citing your source? Thanks. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:49, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

IPA for Finnish cities

Hello. Please do not add IPA based on the pronunciation of Sweden for the Swedish names of cities in Finland. There is a Swedish standard pronunciation in both Sweden and Finland, we should not mix these just as we would impose the Madrid pronunciation on all IPA related to Latin America or RP on all IPA related to the US. Jeppiz (talk) 10:16, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: actually, I agree we should keep them separate, but the help does not currently support IPA for Finland Swedish. A discussion right on this topic has recently been opened and if you joined in it would be very much appreciated. Thank you. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 10:21, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

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Cut-and-paste move from Ro, Emilia–Romagna to Ro, Emilia-Romagna

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give a page a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into another page with a different name. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

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Help:IPA/Piedmontese

The reason for the change is not written down because when I click save change it saves it without asking me for the reason. I don't see why the schematic way I use, in which the local allophone is placed next to its standard counterpart, should be useless. The Help:IPA/ pages for other Romance languages such as Venetian, Emilian, Neapolitan, and Catalan are organised in this way. I understand that this system can be considered messy, but so is putting all allophones in a single note. If you don't like this organisation and prefer to indicate the local variants in the notes then wouldn't it be better to apply a note for each standard phoneme and in that note put all the local variants, but only of the standard sound? Also, why did you only use this for vowels, while for consonants you didn't do the same and indicate the allophones present in the non-standard dialect in a column below? Shack76 (talk) 13:50, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

@Shack76: it is general practice on Wikipedia to try to keep these columns as simple as they can be, since they are used to help readers, and a single column generally refers to one dialect or a precise group thereof (see Help:IPA/Emilian-Romagnol, where it was decided to list every sound in a separate row to avoid confusion, and specify the dialects in the notes); regarding Piedmontese vowels, while every phoneme may be realized very differently from the central dialects, the variation in sound is much less broad and it is enough to list, for example, [i] once instead of having it in two other places when it’s the same symbol and sound; or, there is no need to use two different symbols for [ə] and [ɐ], being those close realizations of the same vowel (it is enough to use [ə] in our help and the notes will clarify that it might be lower for some): this is different from certain consonants that have whole other realizations or even phonemic nature, and as such are worth listing (of course, in separate rows to avoid confusion, as I said before).

Now, if you edit from desktop mode, you should have a field to fill called “edit summary”: that is where you are supposed to specify the details of your changes; if you edit from mobile, it appears right above the preview as you proceed before saving your edits. Hope this was helpful. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

IPA pour les Nuls

Scusa ma avevo tolto una parte di "Zitti e buoni" (Italian: [ˈtsitti e bˈbwɔːni, -tj e -], perché non capivo il “tj e”: probabile che anche uno che ha studiato linguistica (come me) non afferi l’alternativa. Pensavo fosse un refuso o vandalismo. Adesso ho imparato una cosa, dunque grazie.--Arorae (talk) 20:01, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

@Arorae: sì, è pratica direi assodata nelle trascrizioni IPA su Wikipedia usare il trattino per indicare l’omissione di una parte già indicata, così da evitare di affollare troppo la sezione iniziale. In effetti però si potrebbe proporre di inserirlo nelle guide a cui puntano i template (Help:IPA/Italian ecc.). E figurati ;) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Requesting some article expansion help

Greetings,

Came across your recent edit to article related to Georgia (country). I was looking for some proactive help in a chronological merging

Coastal and port cities on Black Sea coast (list) (to create an interactive map further for the article) from some one who is acquaint/ interested in Black Sea region. Pl. visit the section list and help out if you find interested.

Thanks and warm regards

I am looking for article expansion volunteers, can you help? (talk) 07:30, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

@Bookku: sorry, I am not really interested, at least not at the moment. I might hop in later on, though. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 09:38, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

You moved my cite tag

Hello! I do not understand this. What needs a source is the allegation that French songs are to be called chansons in the English language. That's on the talk page. I'm asking you kindly to place the tag again where my intention is clearer. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: hi, I must have misinterpreted your intentions. Still, I have already provided the article with reference for the pronunciation, the Oxford definition for the term should be enough to say that chanson is at least used in English to refer to French songs. Whether that is the predominant (and title-worthy) denomination or not, I’ll admit that is possibly another question. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 09:46, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

OK thanks. We'll leave it for the move request or deletion request which seems inevitable. I am so unused to doing such things that I haven't even learned the spiffy abbreviations yet. Best wishes, --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:32, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Berlinguer

Ho chiesto se bastava che ci fosse l'IPA dei nomi e dei cognomi alle relative voci e mi è stato detto di no. Provvedo a ripristinare l'IPA agli altri membri della famiglia.--Carnby (talk) 17:10, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: sì, è decisamente più pratico averlo direttamente in pagina piuttosto che obbligare il lettore a cercarlo altrove. Ancor di più se c’è un file audio, che risulta più facile seguire attraverso una trascrizione. Comunque se non sbaglio ho già provveduto io a ripristinarlo dove ho visto essere stato rimosso. :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:00, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

Dutch tense vowels before /r/

Jeugdjournaal features the native /u/, not the non-native /uː/. The latter cannot occur before /r/ as the native /u/ is already lengthened (or, rather, it retains its original "long" length that has since been lost in other positions, same with /i/ and /y/) in that position. Can you read Dutch? If so, I advise you to read this paper. Sol505000 (talk) 11:42, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I see your point, even though I don't speak Dutch. But in that case this should be specified in the help, where [iː, uː, yː] are currently reserved to /iː, uː, yː/ in loanwords. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:54, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The more often I come back to that guide, the more I want to WP:NUKEIT, to be honest. Sol505000 (talk) 11:56, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: Btw, I have nothing against that, considering you have a source. But I think it's better to open a discussion just to make sure we actually reach a consensus; I'll be the first to support a change. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Irish language?

Hi, Ivan. I'm just wondering how familiar you are with the Irish language? You've been making a lot of changes to IPA pronunciations of Irish-language names lately, but don't display or mention any particular knowledge of Irish on your user page. Irish orthography and pronunciation are entirely different to English, and I just want to be sure that you're aware of those differences, as the changes you're making are to text that has been present, unchallenged, for quite a while in most cases. Regards, Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

@Bastun: hi! I am simply going through the transcriptions to make sure they match Help:IPA/Irish, the help {{IPA-ga}} links to. I am not a speaker of Irish but I am generally aware of the sound-to-spelling correspondences. Many of the transcriptions I have edited lacked stress marks, slender/broad distinction and such, or were plain wrong. Of course that doesn't mean I won't make any mistakes, but it's no better to leave old and/or unsourced IPAs that don't add up – I try to double-check them as much as possible; if I come across any dubious ones, I'll definitely template them. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello Ivan. I'm not sure that all of your changes to those Irish articles/templates are necessarily improvements. Or consistent with convention and WP:IMOS. In terms of:

• Adding "respell" templates to supplement existing "IPA" templates, has exacerbated existing issues. (Like this change which suggest that Páidí is pronounced the same as Paddy. When it is not. Páidí is pronounced "PAW-dee". Not "PAD-ee".)
• Rearranging article leads (to focus more on templates that clarify pronunciation over those that clarify meaning) has exaggerated existing issues changes. (Like this change which changes the text to read/imply that "the red quarter" is the village's official name. When it is not.)

Separately I would note that this edit/request seems to be based on the assumption that the average Wikipedian (reader or editor) is familiar enough with complex phonetical notation to the extent that they can readily read, identify and fix errors in that notation. I don't think most can or do. And, personally I would question the value in adding yet more complex phonetical notation devices to the top of dozens and dozens of articles. That adds MOS:LEADCLUTTER which is not balanced by value/information that is discernible to a high-percentage (if not a majority) of readers.

In short: Personally I would question the cost/risk/benefit of your current project/approach. Guliolopez (talk) 12:21, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

@Guliolopez: Hi! I see your points, but I don't quite agree.

First of all, {{respell}} is specifically designed to provide an easier alternative to English IPA: in the case of Páidí, /ˈpædi/ is exactly the way one pronounces paddy (corresponding to PAD-ee, see Help:IPA/English and Help:Pronunciation respelling key; so if you remove the latter claiming it to be wrong, the same applies to its IPA counterpart. Which means it either needs to be marked as dubious/needing a ref or to be deleted as well.

Second of all, I understand the problem with moving the "official" designation afterwards, I will reword the lead. The thing is it is best to provide the pronunciation of a term or name right after its spelling, considering a phonetic transcription is sort of a different way to write that word down (and, at least in my experience here, the order things are usually arranged is name-[transliteration]-pronunciation-translation, which the {{Irish place name}} template does not allow). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:38, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Måneskin

Ho notato che hai annullato la mia modifica alla pronuncia dei Måneskin; dato che quella non è certo la pronuncia italiana più comune, come si può sistemare la faccenda? Io /ˈmɔneskin/ l'ho sentito solo da Gabriele Corsi durante la telecronaca dell'ESC 2021 (e Malgioglio faceva fatica a adeguarsi); tutte le altre volte che sono stati nominati (tante) sono sempre stati /ˈmaneskin/; certo se poi parliamo dell'originale danese è un'altra cosa, ma non è questo il punto.--Carnby (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: uhm, in effetti non ci ho pensato molto annullandola – ho la tendenza a essere più prescrittivo che descrittivo. È effettivamente ancora molto comune la pronuncia con /a/, ha senso tenerla, ma personalmente la menzionerei solo dopo quella, pur meno usata, più “standardizzata” in quanto regolare adattamento della pronuncia danese (come nel caso di un qualsiasi forestierismo del tipo déjà-vu, che prevederebbe una /y/ più spesso sostituita da /u/). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:57, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done--Carnby (talk) 19:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Allungamento vocale dittonghi

Ho notato che hai tolto il crono [ː] da Che vuoi? Canepari trascrive [VˑV] (semicrono), Camilli e Fiorelli [VːV] (ma [VV] nel corpo della parola), senza nessuna distinzione tra quelli che sono tradizionalmente definiti «dittonghi discendenti» (eroi) e «ïati» (eroe). Questo a maggior ragione se si considera la metrica poetica: in fine di verso vuoi sarebbe bisillabo.--Carnby (talk) 19:54, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: interessante. La mia modifica si rifà al fatto che i dittonghi discendenti li abbiamo sempre trascritti brevi per semplicità (in linea con quanto detto alla pagina di aiuto, cioè che le vocali si allungano se toniche in sillabe aperte in corpo di parola). Non so se abbia molto senso tenere conto della metrica poetica, che mi risulti nel parlato regolare (anche standard) vuoi è un monosillabo. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:01, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Effettivamente la metrica poetica c'entra il giusto; comunque anche in prosa nei manuali attendibili di fonetica italiana (Canepari, Camilli & Fiorelli) un certo allungamento (semicrono o crono) è sempre presente in quella posizione: [eˈrɔːe] ed [eˈrɔːi] oppure [eˈrɔˑe] ed [eˈrɔˑi] (con possibilità di dieresi o sineresi, più comune).--Carnby (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: sì sì, mi rendo conto che la tendenza all’allungamento c’è, però che ciò foneticamente comporti una dieresi oppure no, e che valga la pena di segnalarlo nelle trascrizioni su Wikipedia forse è un altro paio di maniche. Lo riportano proprio come hai fatto tu, cioè equiparando appieno iati come /ɔe/ a dittonghi come /ɔi/? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:29, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Certamente, sia Camilli & Fiorelli sia Canepari equiparano (foneticamente) appieno quelli che in grammatica tradizionale sono noti come «ïati» e «dittonghi discendenti» stabilendo che la distinzione tradizionale è puramente teorica (e non vale, come ho detto, neppure in metrica poetica). Domani, con più calma, posso farti degli esempi puntuali tratti dai manuali.--Carnby (talk) 20:39, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: buono a sapersi. Credo allora sia più opportuno discutere (o piuttosto, chiarire) la cosa a Help talk:IPA/Italian, specificando ulteriormente la nota sul prolungamento e modificando i “dittonghi” tonici finali nelle trascrizioni che puntano all’aiuto. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:46, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Prima di aprire una discussione su Help talk:IPA/Italian (ho notato che non c'è neppure consenso su /s.C/, il che è notissimo a chi ha un po' di infarinatura fonologica italiana) vorrei sapere su quali testi, se ci sono, ci si basa per stabilire la differenza tra [eˈrɔː.e] (trisillabo) ed [eˈrɔi̯] (bisillabo) sotto l'aspetto puramente fonetico intendo. Poi il mio inglese è un po' arrugginito e dubito di poter riuscire a condurre una discussione in inglese su un tema così spinoso, dato che un po' tutti si sentono in grado di parlare di fonetica e fonologia italiana (con testi assolutamente non attendibili come quello che ho perfino studiato all'univeristà di Marina Nespor, che al massimo può essere considerato l'analisi di una variante settentrionale d'italiano, non certo dell'italiano standard!).--Carnby (talk) 08:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: non saprei, quello che so è che appunto i dittonghi li abbiamo convenzionalmente sempre trascritti brevi, in linea con quanto dice la nota sul fatto che le vocali si allungano in sillabe toniche aperte in corpo di parola (intendendo la seconda parte del dittongo come l’elemento che “chiude” la sillaba e quindi la mantiene “breve”, anche se è quella finale). Ti consiglio davvero di chiedere chiarimenti lì in quanto purtroppo non dispongo dei testi citati e perciò non ti sono granché d’aiuto per quanto concerne l’analisi strettamente fonetica dei vari gruppi vocalici. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 09:48, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Forse è meglio per il momento lasciare tutto com'è; dovrei trovare il tempo di trascrivere i testi di Camilli e Fiorelli e Canepari e impostare un discorso strutturato in inglese.--Carnby (talk) 07:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Cecilia

Vorrei solo dirti che la quattordicesima edizione del Jones trascrive Cecilia come [sɪˈsɪljə, səˈs-, -ˈsiː-, -lɪə], mentre Wiktionary la trascrive /sɛˈsiːli.ə/. Suppongo che quella /i/ sia per dire che può essere pronunciato /j/ o /ɪ/, ma la prima sillaba?--Carnby (talk) 08:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: la variante in /ɛ/ l’ho tolta perché non sembra attestata (Wiktionary non cita fonti). L’alternanza fra [ə] e [ɪ] atono generalmente la sottintendiamo con /ɪ/ (vedi la nota #33; qualche anno fa la trascrivevamo con lo pseudo-IPA ⟨ᵻ⟩). ;) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Ho corretto la trascrizione di Wiktionary.--Carnby (talk) 07:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Palermo

Ho tolto da Palermo quello strano nome locale Palìaimmu e quell'ancora più strana trascrizione IPA [paˈliːaɪmmʊ] e ho messo le forme che si trovano sul DETI di Tagliavini e Cappello (fonte attendibile): Palièmmu, Palèimmu e Palèrmu. Se ti senti di arrischiare una trascrizione IPA, fai pure (ma non so se convenga).--Carnby (talk) 07:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: grazie, hai fatto benissimo. Ho giusto tolto l’accento grafico dove di regola non si usa in siciliano. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Elsa Morante

Hey Ivan,

Following up on this edit, can you complete the IPA for Elsa Morante?

Thanks,

François Robere (talk) 13:33, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

@François Robere: hi! The IPA is actually complete: the hyphen stands for the following part being identical to the one already provided, in an alternative transcription. So instead of having [ˈelsa moˈrante, ˈɛlsa moˈrante] we stick to [ˈelsa moˈrante, ˈɛl-] to avoid cluttering the lead section. Hope I’ve been clear enough! :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Interesting! I didn't know that, thanks. I find it mildly confusing, but if it's legit then it's legit. Cheers! François Robere (talk) 13:55, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Stress marks in transcriptions of German phrases

Hello. You tend to put too many stress marks in IPA transcriptions of German phrases. German, like English, deaccents many words in running speech, including unreduced syllables. My understanding is that Sag ihr, ich lass sie grüßen is pronounced SAG ihr, ich lass sie GRÜSSEN, with two primary stresses and reduced forms of ihr and sie. Heute Abend wollen wir tanzen geh'n too seems to have only two primary stresses: heute ABEND wollen wir TANZEN geh'n (again, with a reduced wir). Maybe "wollen" is stressed too, I'm not sure about that. And a neutral rendering of Du hast mich so fasziniert doesn't include a stress on "mich". It's likely on "hast": du HAST mich so FASZINIERT (with a reduced du).

The answer to your question on how to indentify a secondarily stressed syllable in Swedish is here, in case you haven't read my reply already. The short answer is: look for long vowels, gemination and lowered mid front vowels. If those three things are absent, we're talking about an unstressed syllable. Sol505000 (talk) 12:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: thanks a lot regarding Swedish, I had kinda figured that out but I had no source to rely on. :)

I understand German deaccents many words, but I have a question about vowel reduction ([dʊ], [dɪ], etc.): are these realizations considered part of a standard neutral pronunciation or rather something common in everyday speech but lax compared to a standard pronunciation? Because in that case I don’t think we should go that far in regular transcriptions on Wikipedia. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

You need to understand that transcriptions found in pronunciation dictionaries of German are pretty much a fabrication. Nobody talks like that, not even politicians or TV personalities. In particular, the schwa-assimilated forms are not the most formal kind of pronunciation, which does include the schwa. The word graben 'to dig' is pronounced [ˈɡʁaːbən] or perhaps [ˈɡʁaːˌbɛn] in most formal German and [ˈɡʁaːbm̩] in normal speech, with the /b/ being nasally released into the syllabic bilabial nasal. The transcription ⟨ˈɡʁaːbn̩⟩ found in dictionaries doesn't correspond to any common pronunciation. If a native speaker attempts to actually say [ˈɡʁaːbn̩], forcing his lips open at the end he'll likely end up saying [ˈɡʁaːbən], with a very short schwa (=oral release of the /b/). In any case, the distinction is non-phonemic and there's probably a certain amount of free variation between [ˈɡʁaːbən] and [ˈɡʁaːbm̩] for all speakers, except those that never use syllabic consonants (as in Luxembourg, areas of Germany close to the border with Luxembourg, Switzerland and maybe some other areas as well). The alleged diphthong ⟨aːɐ̯⟩ is also not a diphthong at all but simply an open central [äː] that stems from earlier /aːr/. The words ja and Jahr are perfect homophones in areas with r-vocalization.

The length mark transcribed in the word-final position in non-compound words (or in originally unstressed syllables of parts of compound words, you know what I mean), found in Krech et al. is at least partially a falsehood. The length may or may not be retained there. This is reflected in transcriptions found in Duden's Das Aussprachewörterbuch. In the case of the weak forms of du, die, sie, etc. you need to remember that there's no tense-lax contrast in this position, as lax vowels are normally only permitted in the word-internal position before consonants. Unstressed function words are an exception to the rule, and they're also not preceded by a glottal stop. See Kohler 1999. The only problem is identifying where the weak forms are used, which something I myself am struggling with. Sol505000 (talk) 14:33, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I see where you’re coming from. The thing is we do this with a lot of IPA transcriptions for various languages: we try to keep them as regular as possible for the readers not to be confused with different levels of speech, so we normally stick to a standard (or, in the case of German, three standards) and don’t use colloquial or overly phonetic transcriptions when the article they are used in is not about that. Take for instance Italian: we use the prescribed standard for pronunciation even though only educated people use it regularly among native speakers, and we do that because it would be too complicated to list the various regional and colloquial possibilities; the French transcription is more phonemic than it is phonetic: it doesn’t even use the length mark (except for the /ɛː/ phoneme) when stressed closed syllables are usually elongated in a number of cases; and so on. So I think using transcriptions that step more or less away from a prescribed standard should be proposed beforehand on the dedicated talks, more than anything for the sake of readers. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:39, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

We're already transcribing the shortening of /iː yː uː eː øː oː aː/ in appropriate contexts, following pronunciation dictionaries. The laxing to [ɪ ʏ ʊ] in unstressed function words is not described by Kohler as colloquial. He says that the recording is in a colloquial style. The accent he describes is Northern Standard German. I cannot imagine a fluent speaker who consistently says [diː ˈzɔnə] (cf. English the sun as [ðiː ˈsʌn] theeee sun). It'd sound ridiculous. We want our readers to sound natural and fluent, not robotic and non-native. And I think you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who'd describe the laxed variants of die, sie and du to be "colloquial", as long as the vowel remains in the general close front/back area and is not reduced all the way to a schwa. Sol505000 (talk) 16:24, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I’ll say it in other words: we should find a way of transcribing certain words that we all agree on, to avoid having readers come across [diː] on one page and [dɪ] in another, in identical instances (I have always used [diː] in these cases because that seems to be how the word is always transcribed here). So I totally get your point, but mine still stands: for one standard, we should stick to one kind of transcription all the way across the project, and at the moment, that transcription seems to be different from the one you’re proposing (which yes, I had mistakenly understood as a colloquialism and I apologize). That’s why I’m prompting you to raise the question on Help talk:IPA/Standard German so that we reach a general consensus outside of my talk page. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

(Or alternatively, you could change all the various instances that use {{IPA-de}} and leave a notice on the page). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:38, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I can do that, but the guide doesn't really tell us whether we should transcribe weak forms or not. I do transcribe them, as not doing so makes German stand out from the rest of Germanic languages, in which unstressed articles almost always have short vowels.

I don't know whether I can reliably distinguish all of the unstressed instances of die etc. and not mistake them for a stressed die, or the other way around. Transcribing weak forms of function words does admittedly add a layer of complexity to the transcription system. Sol505000 (talk) 16:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: again, it’s not about the guide itself, it’s just that it’s the best place to talk about this, simply for consensus reasons, and for coherence among the various transcriptions once it’s clear how we’re supposed to act with certain words. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:58, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

The weak form of für is [fʏɐ̯], with a vocalized /r/. Nobody says [fʏʁ] in Northern SG. Sol505000 (talk) 11:52, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I explained why you shouldn't use that transcription. If you disagree, please take it to the help talk, the reference for both editors and readers. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm replying to the edit summary which suggests that [fʏʁ] is a possible weak form in Northern SG. That is false. There's [fyːʁ] (with a long vowel), used in rare circumstances as the strong form. The normal pronunciation is [fyːɐ̯] in the case of the strong form and [fʏɐ̯] in the case of the weak form. Sol505000 (talk) 12:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I totally understood your point. Still I'm no longer talking about the actual realization, but the transcription. As I already said, a reader would be confused so please if you really want, suggest a change in the guide by opening a discussion. I have nothing else to say in this regard. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:33, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough, it's about time I opened a thread there. Sol505000 (talk) 12:58, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Maureen Wroblewitz

Hello. Help improve and copy edit. Thanks you. Kolpb (talk) 09:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Kolpb: there seems to be nothing to copy edit though. I wonder why you went for me specifically, that looks very random (XD). Best, 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 10:23, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Never mind, apparently it is random. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 10:34, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 16

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Rock 'n' Roll Kids, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Paul Harrington.

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Duden (ancora sui dittonghi discendenti)

Ho controllato per caso il Duden Aussprachewörterbuch (ed. 6) e ho trovato la seguente trascrizione del cognome italiano Mattei: [matˈtɛːi̯]. Basterà per uan discussione in inglese sulla lunghezza dei dittonghi discendenti?--Carnby (talk) 06:44, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@Carnby: uhm, non saprei. Per quanto fonte essenziale per le pronunce in tedesco, non so possa valere come riferimento anche nelle trascrizioni relative ad altre lingue. Però tu mettici anche quella, tentar non nuoce – quelle italiane le hai se non ricordo male, giusto? 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:40, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

3RR reminder

Hi, I'd just like to remind you that you've hit three reverts on Belarus in the Junior Eurovision Song Contest; I think it's better to sort this out on the talk page instead. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Opinion

Hi there! I think the points received and the para about the song's performance in the contest should stay in the Eurovision song articles since they have something to do with the song itself. The points awarded by Romania in the contest, for example, don't have anything to do with the song itself, and that's why they're also not included. Regards, Cartoon network freak (talk) 04:57, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cartoon network freak: I absolutely disagree; otherwise what would be the point of specific “[COUNTRY] in the Eurovision Song Contest [YEAR]” articles when almost every single thing (from the very beginning, the selection process etc.) is repeated in the article about the song? It is enough to summarize the total of points awarded (maybe with a few relevant countries if needed) alongside the resulting position in a sentence.

Also, if we really want to do that, we should do it with every entry in the history of the contest, while currently the minority of these articles don’t list the whole voting results obtained, since they can be found at pages dedicated to that year’s ESC or the country’s contest performance.

Cheers, 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:48, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

IvanScrooge, I appreciate your goal of consistency within these articles, but this authoritative attitude is not very constructive nor does it build a sense of community between us Eurovision editors. I understand that you don't like these tables being in the song articles, but they aren't new editions that you're reverting and your removal was objected to by more than one editor. if we really want to do that, we should do it with every entry in the history of the contest < this is true, but not a reason to not have the tables. Perhaps in the long run it doesn't make sense to have them, but let's discuss that on the project page. I would urge you to discuss these types of things if your bold edit is objected to instead of staging an edit summary argument. We're all volunteers! Let's make sure we value each other and the time people put into this! Grk1011 (talk) 14:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Grk1011: you are right, sometimes I get a little carried away, especially when I am making bulk edits (you can see I have lately been copyediting the entries one by one). I appreciate that you guys tried to provide a close insight to those songs, but again, they are songs and the article should focus on that rather than the whole history of [Romania] at the contest in that specific year, which one can thoroughly consult at the dedicated page (and if it doesn’t exist, it can be created by separating the appropriate sections). I think we really should focus on the song content, staging, release and such, summarizing the details more closely associated with the competition. If there really is a need for it, I will soon open a discussion. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:26, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

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Secondary stress

This edit summary makes no sense. Either there are defined circumstances where the syllable is analyzed as bearing the secondary stress, or there are not. Stormvind is a compound noun, made up of storm and vind, each stressed on the first and only syllable. In compounds, this is converted into secondary stress in the case of the less stressed part. Sol505000 (talk) 13:47, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: it’s what we conventionally do with Swedish transcriptions (also, I doubt there is any difference in pronunciation between a two-syllable compound and a regular two-syllable noun with toneme 2, but regardless, this should be documented before changing IPAs). No need for a lesson every time, thanks. I’ll revert your edits and again, bring these things up in more appropriate spaces. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 13:55, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

There's no consensus to do this, and Riad (2014) transcribes secondary stress(es) (yes, there may be more than one secondary stress) in all types of compounds. The marking is phonological, above all else (AFAICS). Sol505000 (talk) 14:05, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Sol505000: I have said countless times my talk page is no place to discuss these things. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 14:13, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Help

Someone reverted the ESC 2022 map to its original version. 212.117.1.186 (talk) 15:05, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

This should be pointed at out at Commons:File talk:ESC 2022 Map.svg. However, I’m sure someone will promptly revert it to its updated version. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I did that, let’s wait and see. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

IPA for Lisboa

Hello. Since you added a syllable break to liʒˈβoɐ, would it be correct to add one to βɐ̃jˈfikɐ (βɐ̃jˈfi.kɐ)? SLBedit (talk) 19:41, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@SLBedit: hi! It would be correct, but it’s not really needed; it is customary in IPA transcriptions on Wikipedia (outside of language-specific articles) to use the syllable break symbol where it is useful for the average reader, i.e. where it makes it clear that two vowels are in hiatus instead of forming a diphthong. In [βɐ̃jˈfi.kɐ], you would unnecessarily remark that [i] and [k] don’t belong in the same syllable. Hope I’ve been clear! ;) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:12, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to the WikiProject!

Hi! I saw you added your name to the members list. Thank you for all the many contributions you've made so far, you're like one of the most active people now. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 23:35, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

ESC 2022 pages

Stop adding years until we know the full list of participating countries! Thank you. 009988aaabbbccc (talk) 07:22, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

@009988aaabbbccc: as you can see this time we already have a couple of mainspace articles to link (instead of just redirects). I suggest either you or I finally open a discussion somewhere. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:47, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Today we will finally get the list, EBU, announced that, so you can keep them. 009988aaabbbccc (talk) 09:37, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022 (October 31)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Dan arndt was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022 and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
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Dan arndt (talk) 01:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello, IvanScrooge98! Having an article declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Dan arndt (talk) 01:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Dan arndt: I understand that it may be WP:TOOSOON (that’s probably the main reason why I started it as a draft), but I don’t get why half of your comment is about the need to source the country’s 2022 participation: there are four sources about 2022, out of the seven total. The other three are of course related to the “Background” section, which is usual in this type of articles and which I mimicked from Montenegro in the Eurovision Song Contest 2019. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 06:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Help:IPA/Sicilian

Ciao Visti ca sì parranti talianu. Ti dispiacissi mutivàrimi 'n lingua siciliana u picchì dâ rimuzziuni dî migghiurìi ca jìi a jùnciri. Nni ḍḍa pàggina foru scrivuti na para di nisattizzi ca nun ponu siri manutinuti ncapu a na wikipàggina.

Per questo vorrei esortarti a dimostrarmi di saper parlare, scrivere o quanto meno comprendere la lingua siciliana. Altrimenti qualsiasi reverted revision su contenuti di questo tipo risulta ex se arbitraria e priva di fondamento logico.

È per questo che vorrei che tu ripristinassi la mia modifica o che quantomeno adducessi gli argomenti esatti che dimostrino l'inesattezza delle mie affermazioni fonetico-ortografiche sul siciliano. Scorpios90 (talk) 18:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Scorpios90: allora, chiariamo una cosa prima di tutto: non c’è assolutamente bisogno di essere parlanti madrelingua per conoscere più o meno approfonditamente la fonologia di un idioma; bisogna aver studiato o (come nel mio caso) essere appassionati di linguistica e anzi, è più verosimile che un parlante nativo non sappia assolutamente fare un’analisi del proprio sistema fonologico a meno di non avere gli strumenti per farlo. Nella mia revisione riporto ad esempio che in alcune varietà (es. quelle dell’agrigentino) le consonanti sorde sonorizzano se precedute da nasale (es. muntagna pronunciato con [d] e non [t]) – tu l’hai rimosso o perché non sei della zona oppure perché pur essendolo non percepisci la /t/ di muntagna diversa da quella di tempu (in cui a sua volta sonorizzeresti /p/ – [ˈt(ʰ)ɛmbʊ]). Per quanto riguarda la /r/, al momento non ricordo se avessi usato il simbolo in maniera convenzionale o se mi fossi basato su qualche fonte che effettivamente riportava la pronuncia (anche) alveolare della consonante, ma credo la seconda (visto il link) – vedo di recuperarla non appena riesco. In ogni caso, tieni a mente che questa è una pagina di aiuto verso cui puntano delle trascrizioni: queste devono dunque corrispondere ai simboli che il lettore trova qui. Se cambi arbitrariamente il simbolo da r a ʐ, poi dovresti verificare che {{IPA-scn}} non sia mai usato con il primo simbolo (per questo è opportuno aprire una discussione prima). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Scorpios90: ah, e per quanto riguarda l’ortografia mi sono basato sulle voci in scn.wiktionary (eccetto per la D retroflessa che ho riportato con il punto come raccomanda la Cadèmia Siciliana). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: sulla tua primissima affermazione devo redarguirti, dato il caso che la lingua siciliana rientra tra quelle lingue parlate, vive e attive, che però non gode di un sistema ortografico accettato o usato, in primis dai propri locutori.

Proprio a tal riguardo, nulla vieta ai non madrelingua siciliani di potersi appassionare o erudirsi nella conoscenza fonologia di una o più varietà siciliane, ciò non toglie che fin quando non verrà divulgata una ampia e completa descrizione grammaticale della lingua siciliana, dubito che tale diffusione di conoscenza sarà così capillare o adeguata, se non appunto andando e vivendo in loco per imparare la lingua sul campo tra i suoi parlanti nativi.

Premesso questo, provo ad entrare nel merito della questione. La pagina di cui si sta dibattendo qui si chiama "Help:IPA/Sicilian" con ciò alludendo al fatto che si tratti di un vademecum afferente alla fonologia della lingua siciliana.

Non penso che ci sia da precisare cosa sia la lingua siciliana e quando si parla invece dei suoi dialetti, ma mi pare giusto il caso di denotare che la fonologia siciliana può variare con estrema facilità tra un comune e l'altro (anche distanti meno di 10 chilometri), con ciò comportando che la fonetica dell'agrigentino non rispecchierà per certo quella di altre località, oppure ne rispecchierà alcune caratteristiche per evoluzioni non strettamente correlate.

Venendo quindi a scn.wiktionary viene da sé - pi cu' si dichiara canuscituri dâ lingua - ca si tratta di nu pruggettu scrivutu chî pedi ca si miritassi, pi prima cosa, na riscrittura tutali dâ ntirfacci utenti ca è rimpinzata di termini italianizzati o dialettalismi della parte occidentale dell'Isola (magari per via del fatto che i locutori orientali vi hanno preso poco o nessuna parte?!). Attendibilità veramente esigua anche nel progetto scn.wikipedia. Tra l'altro anche i template delle coniugazioni su en.wiktionary rappresentano in modo abbastanza impreciso la consistenza della lingua o dei dialetti siciliani.

Se poi quanto fin qui scritto non è sufficiente a corroborare la validità delle mie modifiche, vengo a dire che parole come avvucatu possono essere considerate buone solo se prese all'interno di una fonologia dialettale, laddove il raddoppiamento fonosintattico di -vv- produce nella ordinaria fonetica siciliana un nesso -bb- (cfr. avventum -> abbentu), conseguenzialmente la grafia (e in questo caso la pronuncia) corretta è da individuarsi in abbucatu. Nel dialetto catanese della lingua siciliana, ad esempio, nomi come Sarbaturi diventano (attraverso l'eufonesi data dall'italiano) Sarvaturi, laddove la scarsa pronuncia della r trasforma poi il nome abbreviato in Savvu. Cosa dovremmo riportare allora tra le svariate pronunce/grafie di "Sarbu", "Savvu", "Savvo", "Sarvu"?

È proprio grazie ad un dibattito condotto internamente a Cademia Siciliana (senza e accentata, come successivamente è stato deciso) se ho acquisito una majuri cunzapivulizza dû sicilianu, che mi aiuta nella ricerca quotidiana circa il significato di questa o di quella parola e che mi porta ad acquisire un lessico adeguato alla complessità dei ragionamenti.

Le inesattezze sulla lingua siciliana vengono purtroppo costantemente perpetrate anche per il webbe, a cominciare da siciliani nostalgici della lingua e delle culture "estinguende" che però difficilmente godono di una alfabetizzazione adeguata per poter affrontare certi temi (anche meramente lessicografici).

Ecco perché avrei gradito che le mie modifiche venissero tutt'al più integrate, invece che essere rimosse.

Sempre sulla base della Proposta ortografica di Cademia Siciliana ci sono svariati temi che porterebbero ad infiniti dibattiti, come ad esempio l'espunzione delle d rotacizzate dall'ortografia, cosicché lo standard (proposto) dùcici sia la forma più inclusiva (ed etimologicamengte coerente) tra le tante e permetta di includere anche le varianti dialettali dùrici e rùrici.

Quindi il lavoro e il tempo che si impiega a scrivere di queste cose è sicuramente lodevole, lo diventa un po' meno quando uno si ritrova rimossi dei contenuti senza dei validi e solidi argomenti che legittimino tale revisione. Una cosa è certa, se si vogliono anche includere pronunce come quelle del Dialetto Siciliano Occidentale direi che questa non è la pagina adatta su cui discuterne, né su cui presentare al mondo tali informazioni. E, pi chiùdiri stu discursu, non soltanto in questa pagina non sono presentati altri suoni dialettali inesistenti nella lingua siciliana ma, è proprio la fonologia qui rappresentata che si presentava inadeguata alla sua effettiva portata divulgativa.

Scorpios90 (talk) 21:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Scorpios90: mi sono un po’ perso in questa risposta lunghissima di cui non colgo sinceramente il punto e che mi sembra deviare parecchio dal discorso che stavo facendo. Ci sono stati fior di glottologi tedeschi che a malapena parlavano l’italiano, e che se non fosse stato per loro gli studi seri sulle lingue d’Italia li avremmo iniziati a vedere molto più tardi. Ciò detto, leggerò il tuo messaggio con calma domattina ma semplicemente il discorso è questo: ho cercato di attenermi alla grafia il più possibile neutrale in quanto non esiste (ancora) uno standard per il siciliano come per l’italiano – che una pronuncia di riferimento ce l’ha. Siccome questa pagina ha lo scopo pratico di spiegare ai lettori le pronunce che hanno trovato trascritte nel progetto (magari una in catanese, una in trapanese e una in siracusano), mi pare ovvio che nei limiti del possibile si debba tentare di essere inclusivi. Salutamu. (E, ripeto, dovresti prima aprire una discussione alla pagina di dovere se vuoi proporre una pronuncia uniformata sulla pagina in questione). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 21:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Warning

You have done many edits to change the articles references and structure for the worse. Please be aware, I know what I'm doing cause I'm very familiar with Eurovision-related topics because I wrote many GA articles. Feel free to improve but don't revert my edits and delete important references. If you continue with your disruption, then I will have to search for a third person to mediate this whole situation. Thank you and good day/evening!--Lorik17 (talk) 19:41, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@Iaof2017: how are they for the worse? You even repeated the lead sentence in the background section and the refs are more than enough like that. And regarding the language syntax, something I recently learned too is that voice synthesis systems will be able to carefully switch to an Albanian pronunciation for impaired readers if left that way. So please revert at least those parts, or I will. Thanks! 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:22, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Never mind, just did. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:38, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: the lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important content, in other words the main parts of the article's body are summarized in the lead.--Lorik17 (talk) 21:04, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

The fact that it is going to be the eighteenth participation is not among the most important content of the article if you ask me. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 21:25, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Though it will be changed sooner or later, when I'll nominate the article for GA status. Lorik17 (talk) 21:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Alright, keep taking it personally until then. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 21:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

If you continue this way I will report you. Lorik17 (talk) 07:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Iaof2017: you seem to act like you own the articles on Albania in Eurovision, which neither of us does. Please make some constructive argument or criticism instead of threatening a report whenever you get reverted. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:39, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Again, feel free to improve in a constructive way. I've never claimed that the mentioned articles are my property and Wikipedia is, however, a free encyclopedia, where everyone can make improvements to increase quality. As I said above, I'm quite familiar with the article's theme and I tend toward to upgrade those article to pass good article status. I advise you to have a look at criteria if you're interested, and please do not replace "quality" and "more" reliable references over social media as you did here [9] and many many other times.--Lorik17 (talk) 12:17, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

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Cristoforo Majorana

Hello Ivan! I'm wondering if you can help with what appear to be issues with the dating in this article.
The work in the gallery is dated circa 1470 and French, Italian, and Spanish Wikipedia seem to be attributing works to him in the 1470s, possibly meaning he was active earlier than 1480? -- 2A02:C7F:38FC:A300:FCF5:BBA1:D2CD:894F (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Christmas Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		I wanted to give you a barnstar, but I wasn't sure for what. You've made a lot of good edits across Wikipedia, from fixing CS1 params to writing all the ESC 2022 participation articles. You totally deserve an award for all of that! Merry Christmas! ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:06, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: thank you so much!! Have a lovely holiday season too! 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 12:28, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

	The Original Barnstar
	I know we didn't agreed on some little things but I still want to award you this order for your tireless and great contributions in articles related to Eurovision. Keep going mate :) Iaof2017 (talk) 12:34, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Kallsruh

Hi, Ivan. As you suggested, I opened a new discussion in the talk page of the Infobox German place. Let's see if anybody replies. --Caramelize donorz (talk) 22:43, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@Caramelize donorz: thanks! Sorry if I seemed a bit pigheaded :) 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 23:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Do not worry, I was the same ;) I replied to you in the main discussion. --Caramelize donorz (talk) 10:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 9

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Spain in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page El Periódico.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:57, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Why 28 January is wrong?

As we know, EMA Freš 2022 is the Slovene national selection for ESC22, and I gave an article which shows that the final will be on Friday, 28 January, this article is newer and probably more precise that the calendar of the official site of the ESC... So please tell me what's wrong? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adir David (talk • contribs) 17:57, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

@Adir David: EMA Freš is the first phase, dedicated to selecting newcomers for the competition proper, which is EMA plain and simple. The dates for the EMA finals are yet to be known. :) See for yourself at Slovenia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:14, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Culturebox (January 17)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by S0091 was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

• If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:Culturebox and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
• If you now believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to Draft:Culturebox, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{Db-g7}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
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S0091 (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Editing

Hey, just saw that you reverted my edits on several Eurovision pages (e.g. Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022 and Slovenia in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022) because I was "removing templates" and "changing tenses to the past", this is something that confused me a bit because I did check several times to make sure every tense complies with the timeline of the events. The reason why I removed some of the templates might be because I tried replacing some of the sentences you wrote with texts taken from previous years' pages for better summarization and consistency, as had always been the case of my editing from day one. Another thing that's confusing is that you thanked my edits in Ukraine in the Eurovision Song Contest 2022 when I was essentially undergoing the same editing procedure for the two aforementioned articles. Just wanted to clarify these issues here because I think this is something that we have to get consensus on in order to prevent any future editing wars. LWL12345 (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@LWL12345: you’re right, I thanked you on the page about Ukraine, because it mostly looked like an expansion. While I reverted you on the other two for the reason you mentioned, i.e. the removal of templates and change of tenses to mimic older articles: pluperfect only makes sense when the rest of the article is in the past tense since the contest is over, while language templates are useful if voice synthesis devices are used to read an article (so they should also be implemented in older articles rather than being removed from here). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I got what you mean, and in that sense I'm going to do the major cleanups only after a certain event took place. Again, just wanted to make it clear to you to avoid further conflicts. LWL12345 (talk) 03:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Yeah remember this? If you're going to keep blatantly removing my edits without giving a proper reason I'm going to bring this up on the noticeboard. LWL12345 (talk) 07:40, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@LWL12345: the reason is you always change the tenses and other stuff by taking it from articles about past editions. Let's keep things consistent anong 2022 Eurovision articles. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Then what I would suggest is to correct the tenses without having to overwrite everything once again. I'm currently in the process of gradually cleaning up all countries' articles for 2022 in the format of previous years' ones (better to be consistent with Eurovision articles of +20 years instead of just a single year), but it will take some time because I'm just awaiting the appropriate timing to do so. LWL12345 (talk) 08:09, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@LWL12345: I had already corrected them when I had created the article, that is the point. You shouldn’t blindly overwrite things that have already been adjusted, otherwise don’t be surprised if one bulk-reverts your edits. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:54, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: "Blindly overwriting" in this scenario means directly copying and pasting without any amendments to the corresponding event, which clearly isn't the case from an objective view. My emphasis on this discussion isn't even on tense but more on the overall flow of these articles including sentence structures, sub-headers etc. that you've removed. Since you wanted consistency, this goes back to my argument of the bracketed sentence in my previous message. LWL12345 (talk) 09:44, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@LWL12345: fair enough, we definitely should work on older articles too. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 09:53, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Mello 2022

Hey, can you check the talk page of the article? —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 22:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@Dimsar01: I just replied ;) btw, I suggest you leave a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision so that interested users are more likely to chime in. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 22:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Hey again, since I'm not entirely sure, do we have to wait a week before implementing any changes (to let everyone have a chance to tell their opinion)? —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 16:21, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@Dimsar01: hey there! I usually let at least a few days go by just in case, don’t really know if there is a minimum. In this case consensus seems unlikely to change (5/5 agree), so I think we can already start the conversion, you decide. But if you are patient enough and are fine without rushing, I can lend a hand in one of the next days. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:41, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: I have time now and if it's okay I can do it now. By the way, there isn't a quick way to increment all the label/data parameter numbers on the infobox by 4 right? 😂 —Dimsar01 ^Talk ⌚→ 16:49, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@Dimsar01: I don’t think I’m following you in the latter part. 😅 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 17:40, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@Dimsar01: oh I got it now hahah. Certain users run bots for repetitive tasks like that, maybe you can ask at Wikipedia:Bot requests. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 17:42, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Karlsruhe

Hi IvanScrooge98,

I'm a bit astonished why you reverted my deletion of Kallsruh here. The name of this city in German is spelled "Karlsruhe". There may exist a dialect South Franconian German. However, as for all dialects, a spoken dialect exists but not a written one. I mean, each sequence of letters is just fancy and imagination – why "Kallsruh", why not "Kallsru", "Kalsru", "Kallsruu" or something else? (Giving the dialect name in IPA is something else...) So "Kallsruh" is not a name, it is a pronunciation presumed by user MinerB40. And I additionally it needs a source. Therefore I removed that.

(An additional problem is that the pronunciation of "Kallsruh" is only understandable for German readers, because in German the "h" is usually employed to prolongate a vocal, but not in English.)

--Cyfal (talk) 11:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: alright, I guess we are mixing two different issues. First off, of course the standard German spelling is Karlsruhe, no doubt about that. As for Kallsruh, we should understand (and we definitely need a source at this point) whether it is simply a rough transcription of the local pronunciation when speaking Standard German (as if one would spell Dublin as Dooblin to mimic the local accent) or the actual name in the local South Franconian dialect, which may or may not have one or more standardized/generalized spelling systems (it’s not accurate at all to say that “all dialects” lack a written form, and even then we would need to clarify what you mean by “dialect”). So if it’s the first case, we should only provide IPA (if any); if it’s the second case, we should keep it since it is the local name, unless of course no systematic spelling rules are followed and/or it’s simply Standard German rules being bent for the purpose (and again opt for another type of transcription, provided we have a source). 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi IvanScrooge98,

thank you for your quick answer. You are right, for the brevity of my argumentation I said above dialects lack a written form, but that's not true for all of them. However, being a native German (although not an expert for the South Franconian dialect), I'm quite shure that for the South Franconian dialect no "standard" written form exists. For me it's quite obvious that "Kallsruh" is a transcription of the South Franconian pronunciation that uses the Standard German written language rules, thus not appropriate in the English Wikipedia – independent of whether this is is an actual word of the South Franconian language/dialect, or just the South Franconian pronunciation of "Karlsruhe".

In the meantime, I found now per Google search that there are some Karlsruhe dialect poets; e.g. Harald Hurst. Here (click on "Leseprobe") is some text from one of his books – this also uses the Standard German written language rules to give the pronunciation of the Karlsruhe dialect. Of course this is somewhat original research of mine, I can't prove that this is not an existing "standard written form of South Franconian". But I'm shure that this book is the same case as if some poet from Dublin writes "Dooblin".

Unfortunaly I haven't got an answer on User talk:MinerB40.

--Cyfal (talk) 16:06, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: thanks for your reply, very much on point. I just noticed the Palatine German Wikipedia uses this spelling, so the Franconian name/spelling might not be too far off. Still, in order to be sure we would need a source containing a summary on the orthography, pronunciation or something along those lines. Until we find one I agree it’s best not to include anything. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 16:21, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, IvanScrooge98. Did I understand you correctly that I can delete the Kallsruh again? Which I just did – otherwise don't hesitate to revert me again, I will not complain! --Cyfal (talk) 16:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: absolutely! 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 17:30, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: @IvanScrooge98:Hi, I just became aware of your discussion. One editor mentioned the fact that the Palatine German Wikipedia mentions the South Franconian spelling. One does not even have to go that far, as even the normal German Wikipedia mentions this in the introduction. I surely do not count as a reference, but I was born in Karlsruhe and live here (again) – in the local dialect it is indeed Kallsruh. To be honest though, even as a local, I would not be irritated if the local spelling was missing in the article. To me it’s not an issue worth arguing about.--Catflap08 (talk) 17:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Catflap08. I have no doubt that when speaking local dialect, you're saying something that sounds like ​IPA: [ˈk​ɐls​ʀuː] and I have no doubt, that if you would spell that in German, you would write "Kallsruh". However, my problem is that "Kallsruh" is not an "official" spelling and that it is not an understandable hint about the pronunciation for English-speaking readers.

Greetings to Karlsruhe (a lovely city, I visited it several times on weekends) --Cyfal (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: that IPA transcription looks great! That could very well replace the spelling if you could find a source to back it up. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:55, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Cyfal: I do not want to drag this on even further, but since German is only the de facto and not de jure official language in Germany, my guess would be that to find an official South Franconian spelling is close to be impossible.--Catflap08 (talk) 21:01, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Catflap08: hi! The fact that you testify as a native speaker is actually helpful. As Cyfal said, we would still have to make sure whether that spelling is not (only) merely based on Standard German. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 18:54, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

To be honest most English-speaking readers would, if they study the German language, be confronted with the standard German version. Standard German is only spoken on TV and maybe the Hanover area – some would even argue about that though. In most urban areas, such as Karlsruhe, one would at least make an effort to speak standard German – at least when speaking to someone who is not from the area or to whom German is not the first language. As an alternative the local spelling of Karlsruhe could be mentioned somewhere else in the article? But, I agree to the average English-speaking reader whether the spelling is Karlsruhe or Kallsruh does not make that much a difference. In real life some people simply drop the h and the e in Karlsruhe and emphasise the u. But again it’s by no means anything one should argue about.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Catflap08: you’re right, the thing is it’s practice to include local and/or historical names in articles about locations. It’s a matter of completeness, nothing else. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 19:50, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Oaky, yes the dialect spoken in Karlsruhe itself is considered to be South Franconian in which it is Kallsruh … I mean in the end we are talking about a dialect. I do admire though that both of you do want to get it right – a solution might be what the (standard) German Wikipedia mentions? It does mention the dialect.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Catflap08: no, that “in the end we are talking about a dialect” hurts me 😭 in any case, the point is no longer whether that is the local name (which we have basically ascertained with your help), but whether Kallsruh is the “proper” way to spell it. Don’t worry, I’m sure we’ll find a source sooner or later. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:09, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@IvanScrooge98: Oh no. I do admire dialects! My father speaks a Sudeten German dialect, my mother is Scottish – so I am familiar with Scots which is more than just a mere dialect, I was brought up in Karlsruhe with more or less standard German and learned the local dialect from my classmates at school. Apart from the German Wikipedia and the Palatine German Wikipedia I cannot think of any other reference. The Alemannic Wikipedia for instance – Alemannic dialects are already spoken a few kilometres south of Karlsruhe - spells it Karlsrueh. There is no South Franconian Wikipedia that I know of. There does exist a local Wikipedia, but it does not enter the dialect territory. Sorry If I cannot be of any more help.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

@Catflap08: you have been of great help instead! Thank you! 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 20:44, 13 February 2022 (UTC)