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October 2

Country traits of Sark vs. Alderney

Starting with introducing the problem: Lists of countries usually also contain territories which are not independent countries but have some self-administration and other country features (Greenland, American Samoa, Åland,...). For this reason, Guernsey has its own ISO-3166-1 alpha-3 code (GGY), its own top level domain (.gg), its own license plate bode (GBG) etc. - and so, it has an entry in Country codes: G #Guernsey. So far, so good.

Alderney belongs to the Bailiwick of Guernsey as a self-administered sub-jurisdiction. As such it has no ISO-3166-1 code, no top level domain... but it does have its own license plate code on country level, GBA, as recognized by the UNECE in the same way as independent countries, and as Guernsey. For this only reason, Alderney also has an entry in Country codes: A #Alderney.

Sark is another self-administered sub-jurisdiction of Guernsey... and it does not even have a license plate code for the simple reason that it does not allow cars on the island. The only motorised vehicles on the island are tractors which do not need a license plate.

So... is it accurate to say that Sark is a "country" as much and as little as Alderney is... but in contrast to Alderney, it cannot meaningfully be addd to the country code tables, as it does not have any internationally recognized country code? Is the entry situation in the tables optimal as it is? --KnightMove (talk) 09:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Alderney has a licence plate code does not really say anything about the degree of "countryness" of Alderney vs. Sark. The licence plate codes have lived their own life from long before ISO-standards came to life. Licence plate codes that differ from ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes are reserved within the ISO system, but are expected to eventually be removed or replaced with proper ISO codes. Since Sark does not have licence plates, that will not be an issue for them. Alderney and Sark are in exactly the same formal position as constituent parts of the Bailiwick of Guernsey. The historically assigned licence plate code GBA does not change that in any way. --T*U (talk) 09:59, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so far. "Licence plate codes that differ from ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes are reserved within the ISO system, but are expected to eventually be removed or replaced with proper ISO codes." - I don't get it right now - in what way are they reserved? --KnightMove (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That means they are allowed to exist for the time being. 2A00:23D0:482:D001:E578:2121:89F:4D1E (talk) 11:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@KnightMove: 'Reserved' in this context means that even if they are not used in the ISO system (and therefore theoretically could be used for any new entity), they will not be allocated to any other entity until the time they are removed or replaced. --T*U (talk) 12:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For instance, garages got blocks of registration numbers which they used up as they registered the vehicles they sold. They were "reserved" to them, so if, say, an Oxford garage had the block AJO 100A to AJO 199A and registered AJO 150A, the next vehicle to be entered on the register with Oxford County Borough Council would only be AJO 151A if registered by the same garage. In the modern format e.g. AB22XYZ the last three letters are allocated randomly - I don't know how that affects the system. 2A00:23D0:482:D001:E578:2121:89F:4D1E (talk) 12:32, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As an analogy, that is rather far off. The point here is that ISO (voluntarily) do not use some of the codes they 'own' in order to avoid confusion with a different set of codes that is not under their control. --T*U (talk) 13:30, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's not exactly relevant for the question, but at least the ISO uses BRN for Brunei (IOC: Bahrain) or AUS for Australia (UNDP: Austria)?! --KnightMove (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I guess there are lots and lots of examples of conflicting country codes in different contexts. Different international bodies will often have made what they feel is the best coding for them, ignoring ISO (or preceding ISO-coding as in car plates). Just for fun, I checked the International Island Games Association, where both Alderney and Sark are members in their own right. In their result listings, they use ALD for Alderney and SAR for Sark (and GUE for Guernsey and JER for Jersey). None of these actually conflict with any active ISO codes. And it works for them... --T*U (talk) 14:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC) [reply]
CQ:
Status remark
Refers to the island of Sark and reserved at the request of the United Kingdom.
--Error (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A law against charging commission on Treasury bond trades?

American brokerages charge no commission on Treasury bill/note/bond trading. I don't believe they're altruistic, not least because I've never seen them advertise this fact, even as they proclaim no/low commissions on stock and corporate bond trades. So why don't they charge money for Treasury trades, if it's not illegal? Thank you. Imagine Reason (talk) 11:57, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see from [1], in Britain there is a "bid" price which sellers get which is lower than the "offer" price which purchasers have to pay, as in all stock trading. I would imagine America is the same. 31.117.20.68 (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's true for all securities trades. Still other bond trades cost a minimum of $10, and if you consider the size of a minimum Treasuries trade, brokerages are moving a lot of money for free. Imagine Reason (talk) 15:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How did the Third Reich treat racist vigilantes?

No luck finding anything about this on Google Books.

What happened in the mid‐1930s when a German citizen murdered a Jew or a Romani? Did the police ignore it? Did the murderer have to pay 10¢ and spend twenty minutes in jail? What was the penalty (if any) for such unauthorized killing? — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 16:12, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I recall from the recent Ken Burns film about the Holocaust, when vandals attacked Jews, the cops stood by and did nothing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:11, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Presumably, this would have been treated as any murder in the early 30's, before the Nazi seizure of power and specifically the Enabling Act of 1933. During the Kristallnacht of 1938 many Jews were murdered; the authorities did not intervene but in fact cooperated. One would assume that the transformation changing Jews and Romani from German citizens to vermin to be "lawfully" hunted and exterminated was not instantaneous, but required the normal court system to be taken over by Sondergerichte and anti-Nazi judges to be removed and placed by Nazi loyalists.  --Lambiam 09:12, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See also Vigilantes, Brown Shirts, and the Attack on the Rule of Law. Alansplodge (talk) 12:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Josef Hartinger and Moritz Flamm did try to do something. --Error (talk) 15:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

quote

"law is reason unaffected by desire" famously quoted by Aristotle. what is the philosophy behind the quote? Grotesquetruth (talk) 16:56, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Objectivity (philosophy). 136.56.52.157 (talk) 23:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Moral objectivity implies that certain moral rules are universally valid, but this is not implied by Aristotle's statement. His point is, rather, that those who govern should do so in an orderly fashion, according to rules laid down as law, and not by haphazardly following their whimsies. These laws need not be universal but may vary between states. Aristotle is arguing for the rule of law.  --Lambiam 08:46, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
--Lambiam what did he mean by "unaffected by desire"? Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See also, Legalism (Chinese philosophy)? DOR (HK) (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The phrase is from Aristotle's Politics, book 3, chapter 16, which you can read at wikisource in a rather old translation from 1776. You may be able to find more modern translations online or in a library or a book shop. --Wrongfilter (talk) 15:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised no 1 has mentioned conflict of interest and separation from emotional arguments. How bout when Kyle Rittenhouse was found not guilty for killing 2 men and shooting a 3rd, the vast majority of Americans were happy, but, not the family of the 1s he killed? Or how about when someone is killed by the police, while almost everyone else makes the "thank you police for your services" the person's family does not? So, emotional appeals seem to override strongly. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:00, 4 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
I very strongly doubt whether "the vast majority of Americans were happy" about the events or outcome of the Kyle Rittenhouse case. AnonMoos (talk) 08:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
At the time, Biden tweeted, "the verdict in Kenosha will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned, myself included".  --Lambiam 15:02, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, ironically it was very racially divided too. Most White people were happy that Rittenhouse beat the case but most AAs were not. And Wikipedia did give some statistics as to what % of Republicans and Democrats were happy/unhappy about it. So it seems more Republicans were happy about it. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
A source for "Most White people were happy that Rittenhouse beat the case" please. HiLo48 (talk) 00:45, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
From seeing the comments, on Facebook. I'm an active commenter for at least 2 years. For example, every time the news report a police shoots someone, it's an automatic White commenters vs. Black commenters, even more the police-shooting story details is given. So for Rittenhouse, full of White commenters happy about it, reacting like to it, full of Black commenters upset about it, sharing the post in anger, etc. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 10:50, 7 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
What evidence do you have that social media are an accurate cross-section of American opinion? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:51, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Watching Democrats and Republicans arguing against each other back and forth for years. Even on Internet forums. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 22:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
would you explain the portion of what Aristotle meant by "unaffected by desire"? Grotesquetruth (talk) 13:59, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

are there any paradoxical yet pressing socio-legal challenges/issues of the time? any specifics/deliberations on some pressing subject matter in question of interest? Grotesquetruth (talk) 17:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which time? Ours, or Aristotle's (in view of your previous query)? {The poster formerly known as 87.81..230.195} 90.193.128.129 (talk) 20:47, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
as of current. Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Can you think of an example? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does the abortion debate qualify? There, two principles, that of the sanctity of life and that of a woman's right to choose appear to clash.  --Lambiam 08:51, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
would you elaborate as to the contradictory forces in question? Grotesquetruth (talk) 06:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are those who consider abortion to be murder. That is an obvious clash with the concept of sanctity of life. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Abortion Gun control Death penalty States’ Rights Affirmative action DOR (HK) (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from perhaps the last, all those seem particular to one country with less than 5% of the world's population. So the clarification needed is not just when, but where. HiLo48 (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 3

Saints Edern and Edeyrn

Saint

The same image (the name of which refers to the unrelated fr:Saint Herbot) is used to illustrate both Saint Edern and Saint Edeyrn. Wiki tells me

  • Edern = 9th century monk, possibly from Ireland or Wales
  • Edeyrn = 6th century saint from Wales

Both are mentioned as being connected to Lannédern in France. Question: Is this in fact the same saint? Is the image correctly labelled for any of the saints? As I don't have time to delve into this, can someone have a look. Thanks. Deadstar (talk) Deadstar (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The German Wikipedia page, de:Edern (Heiliger), has Edeyrn as a variant of Edern, but the only reference is a broken weblink. Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Edern mentioned here is clearly the same historical or mythological entity as the Edeyrn mentioned here, matching the description in our article Saint Edeyrn.  --Lambiam 15:59, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) According to [2] Saint Edeyrn (feast day 6 January) was a British companion of King Arthur who became a recluse in Armonica, Brittany. This [3] says St Edern was a ninth-century Welsh hermit in Cornouaille, about 15 km from Quimper. This [4] (referenced in the article) says he died and is buried at Lannedern. It also says (in translation): "There exist two possible versions for the life of this saint who was patron, among other communities, of Lannerdern and Plouedern." Acccording to one Celtic legend he mapped out the bounds of his parish sitting on a deer. This [5] gives his saint's day as 30 August. This [6] says the perambulation was at the instigation of his sister Genevieve. 78.141.40.98 (talk) 16:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I did not find dates for Saint Edern in the two sources referenced in Saint Edern. The French Wikipedia also places him in the 9th century, but also without citation. this source about Breton given names does not consider the 9th century as certain.  --Lambiam 16:45, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Breton language br:sant Edern article leads to that archeological society source, so the saint would have step foot on the ground near Quimper, first, in ~894. They are debating regarding him arriving from Ireland or Wales. --Askedonty (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This website gives a feast day for "St EDEYRN (OUEDERN)" as 6 January, so it seems unlikely that they are the same person. It also says that Edeyrn has a church dedicated to him in Brittany, which I haven't tracked down yet. Alansplodge (talk) 18:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Edern, Finistère a statue of the patron saint (Edeyrn, a Welsh missionary of the 7C) riding a stag[7] and Lannédern Parish close fiveby(zero) 20:04, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Riding a stag? the 9th century saint. In the Bulletin above ( a very bad OCR making it hard to decide), the author R.P. Plaine (Dom Plaine, Jean-françois Plaine) introduced his 1892 subject with "Ex?;ll.. neveu de saint Colomba et évêquè en Écosse", - genealogists to decide. There's a lot of confusion --Askedonty (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is said in some ancient documents that the vale of Edeymion had its name on becoming the domain of Edeym, a descendant of Cunedda Wledig, who lived in the former part of the 7th century. His pedigree is thus given in Bonedd y Saint—Edeyrn ab Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd ab Cadwallawn Law Hir ab Einiou Yrth ab Cunedda Wledigf Transactions of the Cymmrodorion. 1822.
Edeymion was actually named after an Edeyrn son of Cunedda Wledig[8][9] and not either of our saints.
Edeyrn, the son of Nudd ab Beli ab Rhun ab Maelgwn Gwynedd, was a bard, who embraced a life of sanctity, and the chapel of Bodedeyrn under Holyhead is dedicated to him. Some pedigrees say that the father of Edeyrn was Beli, omitting Nudd. Festival, Jan. 6. Rees, Rice (1836). An essay on the Welsh saints or the primitive Christians.
Jan. 6 Edeyrn the Bard (also Nov 11) in Sabine Baring-Gould's The Lives of the Saints
We also have Llanedeyrn, which is i think Aurdeyrn or Edeyrn or Faustus son of Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau Aurdeyrn, ap Gwrtheyrn Gwrthenau oi ferch ei hîn, a fu'n Sant yn Llann Edeyrn yng Nghibwyr, lle mae ei Eglwys ef, ag yno y gorwedd: ag efe a wnaeth Gôr yno i drichant Seint, a'r Saeson ai torres yn amser Cadwaladr fendigaid.[10] and and Baring-Gould's Lives of the British Saints

So we definitely have two Welsh saints:

  • Edern, son of Ludd, the Bard, Bodedern (Jan. 6) and Llanedern (Dec. 22), of Arthurian Legend in the Mabinogion
  • Edeyrn son of Vortigern, Llanedeyrn (Aug. 30 or Nov. 11) and associated with the stag

Baring-Gould has the same Edeyrn in Brittany in Edern, Finistère and Lannédern, but still need more work to see if this is a separate 9c saint born in Brittany. fiveby(zero) 22:13, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But why are you associating Edeyrn son of Vortigern with the stag ? I thought the stag was part of the legend of Edern, deceased in Lannédern, Brittany? --Askedonty (talk) 22:30, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)You are right, i was just going to edit that. Baring-Gould associates him with the stag, and includes a stained glass from Plogonnec. We're not sure yet he is correct. fiveby(zero) 22:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see. I see also now, after reading it better, that Jean-François Plaine may be not entirely convinced himself 9C a fully coherent date for a relevant migration in the related era. He may in fact be leaving a freehand to the lawyer who was analysing the tale primarily (in 1776) and perhaps had had access to notarial like data usefull in a datation. --Askedonty (talk) 23:00, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
EDEYRN, 'santo. Non si conoscono ne i genitori ne la vita di E. Infatti, sono necessarie prove piu convincenti per accettare la storia accolta dal Baring-Gould Bibliotheca Sanctorum. 1964.
Baring-Gould has Edeyrn raised by Germanus of Man and died 522, but our (poorly referenced) St Edeyrn's Church has him an associate of Saint Isan, founding 535 and buried in the churchyard.

 Comment: Thank you all for your research! So in short, there should be two separate entries for these two saints as they are not the same. The stag could be for either of them. The articles may benefit from some of the information you all unearthed. Deadstar (talk) 10:21, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At least two, I was hoping for some more comments and for more editors to check my reading of the sources. We have three locations with places names and churches:
We have two genealogies from Bonedd y Saint
  • Edern, son of Ludd
  • Edeyrn son of Vortigern
Saint Edern looks fairly straightforward:
But do you merge the articles on the saint and the Arthurian legend? Saint Edeyrn is complicated, for South Wales we have:
  • the monastery of 300 on the Rhymney (Rein)
  • Baring-Gould's acceptance of parentage from Bonedd y Saint as a child of incest and association Germanus of Man
  • the association with Saint Isan and establishment 535, which is incompatible with above (i haven't found any good evidence for this yet)
for Brittany:
  • the stag legends (whatever article this ends up being should be the only one that links to the image)
  • 9c, from Askedonty's [[11]
  • Baring-Gould's assertion that the saint of South Wales and Brittany are one in the same
Baring-Gould is the most detailed source, but the most definitive, it:Bibliotheca Sanctorum doubts the evidence. But it is not clear if the doubt that the Brittany saint came from Wales after establishing the monastery on the Rymney. fiveby(zero) 14:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tracking down scan of Ezra Stiles manuscript

I'm looking for a scan of the original manuscript "A vocabulary of the Pequot Indians, obtained by Ezra Stiles in 1762 at Groton, Connecticut" / "MS 5 Pequot vocabulary". I have not been able to locate a copy. I have found an academic article that transcribes it, but I'd like to see the original if possible. It might simply be that nobody has digitized it yet. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:38, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, found it. It's in Ezra Stiles Papers, Series V, "Miscellanies", pp. 449-454. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 18:56, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

Andrew Carnegie at Whitman's lecture

Can anyone track down the origin of the claim that Carnegie did not attend Whitman's lecture on Lincoln? The earliest source I found is Jerome Loving's highly reputable Whitman: The Song of Himself (1999), but all of his sources for the claim describe Whitman as having been in attendance, as far as I can tell, including Whitman's published correspondence and Traubel's With Whitman in Camden. Eddie891 Talk Work 02:08, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Loving doesn't say he didn't attend, but did not occupy the box he rented. Kennedy (p. 26-7) has James Russell Lowell, John Burroughs and Charles Eliot Norton in the box to his right, Edmund Clarence Stedman and family opposite, with Carnegie in attendance. I only see two boxes in this interior view of Madison Square Theatre. I know that's a stretch, but Loving cites Kennedy nearby. fiveby(zero) 04:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, that's an interesting point. Loving's statement Pannapacker is cited by Blake (2006) as saying that Carnegie wasn't there [12], so I hadn't considered that possibility. Let me see if I can find anything else on that. Eddie891 Talk Work 13:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Archive has Blake, so you can follow the citations. ""A Tribute from a Poet"". The New York Times. April 15, 1887. has Carnegie in attendance, as does Kaplan. He doesn't cite Loving, but Pannapacker. Pannapacker cites "A Tribute from a Poet". I don't see Pannapacker or Loving citing evidence that he did not attend. Daniel Mark Epstein has a very detailed account in Lincoln and Whitman with more primary sources to examine. fiveby(zero) 14:32, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, corrected Blake. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
here's an 1887 source suggesting Carnegie was unable to attend Eddie891 Talk Work 14:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We may, then, never know, if contemporary sources give contradictory accounts. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Traubel (p. 513) describes Whitman as saying merely "Andrew Carnegie paid $350 for his seat", no commentary about whether he was there. Whitman apparently didn't get Carnegies check until April 20. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at LOC newspapers some have him seated in the pit, while New-York Tribune doesn't list as attending, and with others places his arrival in New York the evening of the 15th. fiveby(zero) 15:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Found the Tribune says that he arrived on the evening of the 15th, was too ill to see anyone. The Sun says much the same. Could you highlight the article describing him seated in the pit? I can't seem to find it. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if Carnegie didn't actually write two checks for $350. There's a letter from Johnston to Whitman implying he needs $350 to secure the venue, i can't remember if it's in Daybooks , Correspondence, or With Walt Whitman. He sends the "Whitman is the great poet of America so far" letter to Johnston with $350 enclosed. Later says somewhere that all the proceeds should go to Whitman, and then Whitman receives a $350 check in a letter from Gilder on the 20th. fiveby(zero) 15:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here's Johnston's letter (March 14, 1887). There's also this one (March 24, 1887) Eddie891 Talk Work 16:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I saw it in WWC II, p. 430, with "I talked with you about Johnston yesterday: well, this will show you the practical nature of his camaraderie. Johnston is always turning up the pennies but spends the pounds with a certain sort of abandon. He is the kind of a man who might play with riches and die poor—though he's mighty comfortable fixed, I should imagine, as things are going now. This letter gives you a little look in on Johnston for one thing—then adds a point or two of history for keeps." fiveby(zero) 16:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In The Correspondence of Whitman vol. 4 p. 85-88, Whitman mentions the check in a few letters, but doesn't provide much more information other than to repeatedly say he got it and was happy. Eddie891 Talk Work 16:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a look at several major bios of Carnegie as well, and two mention it and say he was there (either without citing a source or citing Whitman's letter mentioning it) and the rest don't mention it at all, unfortunately Eddie891 Talk Work 15:06, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Fiveby, for what it's worth, I emailed Loving to ask and he said he was not exactly sure and included the footnote citing the sources we dug up in this discussion now in Walt Whitman's lectures on Abraham Lincoln. Very good work, thanks. I don't think we will find a much better answer than this disagreement between sources... Eddie891 Talk Work 15:44, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Eddie891: Courteous of him to respond. We may never know is always a disappointing result for ref desk questions, but it looks like you are adding some good content to the article. fiveby(zero) 15:11, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

correlation/relationship?

how are legal rights, interests, duty and wrongs correlative of one another in rule of law and their application? Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:50, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One could make a five-dimensional hypercube chart with on axis 1 various legal rights, on axis 2 various interests, on axis 3 various duties, on axis 4 various wrongs, and on axis 5 various jurisdictions. Their interaction, in each of the numerous hypercells, may be different, and the actual application may differ from the written law. Very much in general, confining the question to civil issues, a legal wrong (aka tort) is a violation of an individual's legal rights. The offending party, that is, the party who committed the tortious act, then has the duty to provide an appropriate remedy. The injured party seeking redress should have a genuine interest in the matter (but the onus of establishing that no such interest exists is on the offending party).  --Lambiam 10:11, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
One could almost say, using a loosely deterministic approach, that the only degree of freedom in that system is in the definition of duty. One could also retort it is in the definition of tort, but deciders in the end are only using scales extending from interest to duty as judges are by definition themselves unrelated to tort. Variations among systems can very well be considered as determined by semantics, with no other degree of freedom than outside evolution introduced in poetry and by linguists (usually constraining). --Askedonty (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

quote

Paul Freund once said 'the Court should never be influenced by the weather of the day, but inevitably they will be influenced by the climate of the era'. what does the quote mean with respect to existing national legal frameworks? Grotesquetruth (talk) 09:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The quote is not about frameworks. It is meant to apply equally in all jurisdictions that follow the rule of law, regardless of the specific legal framework.  --Lambiam 10:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
yes but the change in climate would mean that these jurisdictions will have to alter laws that work best in the climate of the jurisdiction? Grotesquetruth (talk) 11:49, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "change in climate" will sometimes be expressed in specific laws (or repeal of specific laws) but may also be expressed extra-legally: in writing, in journalism, at pubs and dinner-parties, on the streets, and today in electronic media. ColinFine (talk) 12:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The literal words, as spoken by Paul A. Freund in 1971, are, "I think a President should try to appoint Justices who are sensitive to the climate of the age, not the weather of the day or the weather of the year, but the climate of the age." He clarified that the climate of the age was one of "increasing sensitivity toward human rights" and "large conceptions of equality under law".[13] In the paraphrase by RBG, "the Court" refers specifically to the Supreme Court.  --Lambiam 14:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second Italian War of Independence

Was Bologna under siege by Austria, albeit briefly, in 1859 ? This concerns the article Eduardo Majeroni, who was reported as being involved in its defence. Doug butler (talk) 11:13, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bologna was in the hands of the Austrian Empire. The siege was carried out by the armies of Cavour and Napolean III. So Majeroni was involved in the attack, not the defence.  --Lambiam 14:30, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Either way, there seems not to have been any sort of siege in Bologna in 1859. Following the Battle of Solferino in the Second Italian War of Independence, the French and Austrians agreed the Villafranca Armistice in June (for which Wikipedia does not have an article). Bologna was the principal city of the Papal States (aka the Papal Legations), which the Austrians were defending on behalf of the Papacy. One of the terms of the armistice was that Austria should evacuate their forces from the Papal States, which they did. There was a liberal uprising against Papal rule in Bologna, and the departure of the Austrians ensured its success. [14] Alansplodge (talk) 20:58, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for clear and succinct answers. We are fortunate to have such a resource as this panel. Doug butler (talk) 21:10, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) This timeline of Bologna in 1859 (in Italian) has more details than you could shake a stick at, but no siege. Alansplodge (talk) 21:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have footnoted it as a strategy rather than a confrontation. I'll leave the Italian text to mu correspondent. Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the idea of globalisation

Has the idea of "globalisation" been fully adjusted to its true meaning? Grotesquetruth (talk) 14:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on what you mean by “globalization”… different people define the term in different ways. Blueboar (talk) 14:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What is, in your view, the "true" meaning?  --Lambiam 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Blueboar (talk) I think the idea is to unify all governments, nationalities in all respects or at least attempt to. Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:44, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the term is not “globalization,” but “one-world government.” The two are unrelated concepts. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Globalization is the reduction of barriers to the movement among economies of goods, services, capital, people, and ideas. It could credibly be credited with generating more wealth, and reducing more poverty, than any development since the on-set of industrial revolution. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(ec)Check Globalization and see if that squares with your theory. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:48, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That some believe one-world government could arise out of globalization does not mean that such politically motivated assertions have any basis in logic. “Coulda, woulda, shoulda,” as my wife says. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:53, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

rule of law

the rule of law implies that the creation of laws, their enforcement, and the relationships among legal rules are themselves legally regulated. what is meant by being "legally regulated" here or who regulates these laws? Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:19, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have to ask: are you getting these questions about law and the rule of law from a textbook or essay paper of some kind? They seem weirdly formulaic, and I feel that some of your later questions (including this one) would be unnecessary if you had followed up our earlier responses with a modest amount of reading around the subject. GenevieveDEon (talk) 18:27, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
oh no, just a subject of interest. here to form better clarity of the area. Grotesquetruth (talk) 18:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"X is legally regulated" means the same as: "X is regulated by law", that is, the law lays down the rules that pertain to X.  --Lambiam 09:54, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(academic title) in residence vs visiting

A scholar-in-residence on a visit to a University, say for four or five days; is that OK? OED has residence in this sense thus: "The fact of living or staying regularly at or in some place for the discharge of special duties, or to comply with some regulation; also, the period during which such stay is required of one. Now freq. in phrase in residence. a.2.a Eccl., with ref. to the presence of incumbents in their benefices, canons in their cathedrals, etc." Wouldn't it take more than a few days to be in-residence? An academic on a short visit is a visiting scholar rather than a scholar-in-residence. Am I right? 2405:201:F00A:206C:E59F:9B36:1107:1963 (talk) 19:26, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One thought: who pays for housing? A visitor may pay her own way, but residency implies lodging is provided. DOR (HK) (talk) 20:56, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Visiting scholars can be in residence for a surprisingly long time. User:Chris Bennett said in the first iteration of his user page (back in 2005) "...lived in London for several years before moving to San Diego, where he has stayed, so far, for about 20 years longer than he expected to when he arrived." He was still a "visiting scholar" at UCSD when he died in 2014. 92.8.223.188 (talk) 18:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. That page of the deceased Wikipedian took me a long way. I guess experts had a hard time trying to maintain a page they majorly contributed to in good shape. Sad.
Calling a professorial short visit to an academic institution 'scholar-in-residence' is not something we see with reputed institutions, I guess. 2405:201:F00A:206C:34C0:13DF:CF18:853E (talk) 08:14, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why didn't Grey receive his BA?

According to our article Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Grey of Fallodon "by January 1884 he had been sent down but allowed to return to sit his final examination. Grey returned in the summer and achieved Third Class honours in Jurisprudence. Though he was entitled to receive a BA, he never received one. He would receive an honorary doctorate of law from Oxford in 1907". I would like to know why he didn't receive his BA, and, given that he was allowed to sit Finals, was he actually sent down or was he in fact rusticated? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grey of Fallodon : being the life of Sir Edward Grey afterwards Viscount Grey of Fallodon by Trevelyan, George Macaulay (1940) p. 20 quotes the "Baliol Balliol minute-book":
Sir Edward Grey, having been repeatedly admonished for idleness, and having shown himself ignorant of the work set him during the vacation as a condition of residence, was sent down, but allowed to come up to pass his examination in June.
The author goes on to say that he "took a Third in Jurisprudence, which, together with his Second in Classical Moderations of three years before, entitled him to a B.A. degree. But he neglected to take it...", perhaps preoccupied with the bird sanctuary at Fallodon which he had established after being sent down. Alansplodge (talk) 11:02, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would question whether he was entitled to the degree if he had really been sent down (expelled from the University), rather than just rusticated (excluded for a limited time). I don't know how things worked in Oxford in the 1880s but when I was at Cambridge in the 1970s there was a rule that you had to be resident in Cambridge for a certain number of days to be eligible for the BA. So, if a similar rule applied, even if he had only been rusticated he would have ha to spend some extra time in residence to compensate for his absence during the rustication. Perhaps evidence that he had passed the exam would be of value even in the absence of a degree. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 14:42, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I was there, there were three "l"'s in "Balliol". Clicking on Alansplodge's link confirms it. 92.8.223.188 (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, a slip of the digit, now corrected. Alansplodge (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It used to be the case that you had to be physically present at a graduation ceremony to get you B.A. Now that is no long necessary.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.1.199 (talk) 05:38, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 5

Turnus's attempted suicide in Bk 10

Unexpectedly, I'm having a hard time finding any significant discussion on the enraged and frustrated Turnus, led away from battle by a specter of Aeneas. JSTOR is less than helpful--but surely there is discussion of this, right? Can you help me (and a student)? Drmies (talk) 01:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find a significant discussion either, but obviously Turnus is not merely frustrated; he feels humiliated, his honour squashed because it looks as if he cowardly avoided the battle – in his despair, overwhelmed by shame, death seems the better choice than living on in shame and dishonour.  --Lambiam 09:13, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be a whole chapter in Vergil's Aeneid and Greek Tragedy: Ritual, Empire, and Intertext (Cambridge University Press) discussing it in the context of Roman ritual. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 14:16, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Duckworth, George E. (February 1940). "Turnus as a Tragic Character". JSTOR 45419502. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) "Turnus AND Tragedy" seems a useful search to find discussion, also "Turnus AND Ajax". fiveby(zero) 14:57, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User talk:Lambiam, fiveby, and 70.67.193.176 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), thank you so much! Fiveby, I saw the Duckworth article but it does not discuss the scene, only one word from it. I saw Ajax as well, but that's going too far for the class. Of course, I also watched the tragedy of Ajax last Tuesday. Drmies (talk) 15:34, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies:, a few more snippets:
  • Mullens, H.G. (January 1939). "The Shape and Pattern of the Tenth Aeneid". JSTOR 45419993. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) cited by Duckworth
  • Benario, Herbert W. (1967). "The Tenth Book of the Aeneid". JSTOR 2935865. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) Turnus ignarus rerum vs. Aeneas rerumque ignarus, and fluctuat (680) and (683)
  • Garstang, J.B. (1950). "The Tragedy of Turnus". JSTOR 1086148. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) just lists as peripeteia in his outline of the tragedy, but no discussion.
Benario does say ...the tenth book of the Aeneid has been more completely ignored than any of it's companions. and Duckworth This passage, it seems to me, deserves more emphasis than is usually accorded to it. Looking through the Vergilius bibliographies "Aeneid: Individual Books 7-12" sections turns up:
  • Quint, David (2001). "The Brothers of Sarpedon: Patterns of Homeric Imitation in Aeneid 10". JSTOR 40236202. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help), a longer discussion (mostly saving for later by Juno, not rage after), but if Ajax is going too far then this might be also.
It doesn't seem to be a popular passage. fiveby(zero) 19:07, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, Fiveby. So who's going to write all this up? ;) Drmies (talk) 20:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

doctrines

how is "due process of law" different from "procedure established by law". Grotesquetruth (talk) 08:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Due process requires handling in accordance with all rules established by law. These rules may or may not define specific procedures to be followed. Hearsay is generally not accepted as evidence. This is a rule, not a procedure. If a court, acting against this rule, allows inadmissible hearsay to be used as evidence, leading to a conviction, the due process rights of the defendant have been violated.  --Lambiam 09:30, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See also substantive due process, and contrast with procedural due process. --Trovatore (talk) 19:39, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eurasia Party Election Results

The Eurasia Party is neo-facist party in russia. It (or it's chairman) is said to have sigificant influence on the policies of Putin, especialy the invations in recent years.

Has it ever participated in elections and how many votes did it achive? 84.143.248.146 (talk) 16:41, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eurasian Economic Integration: Law, Policy and Politics (p. 90) says that in a coalition called "Great Russia - Eurasia Party" it contested the 2003 Russian legislative election but only polled 0.3% of the vote, giving them one solitary seat of 450 in the State Duma. BTW, I'm not sure that a party based on Communism can properly be called Fascist, their ideology is described in our article as National Bolshevism, but they do have some points in common. Alansplodge (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure that's the same group. From ru.wiki article on 2003 elections, the leadership of that coalition doesn't seem to have be linked with Dugin. --Soman (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, more detail in Aleksadr Dugin: A Russian Version of the European Radical Right?, assuming that the "Evraziia party" mentioned in the text is the same as the Eurasia Party under discussion. Alansplodge (talk) 19:50, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 6

Is the Non-Aligned Movement actually a serious organization?

Were the member countries of the Non-Aligned Movement actually non-aligned in practice during the Cold War or was that just for show? I mean Indonesia's Suharto and his regime was completely aligned with the West from the moment he exterminated more than 1 million people in the country and yet he was still elected chair of the organization from 1992 to 1995. And then there was Cuba which did not try to hide the fact that it was allied with the Eastern Bloc. StellarHalo (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Bandung Conference of 1955 was very serious, but as time went on, the Non-Aligned Movement welcomed members like Cuba, whose "non-alignment" was very questionable, and at it least partly took on the character of an alliance of dictators against democracies. It became much less important in world affairs after the end of the cold war, and today it's just another "G" group like the G-77 or whatever, and not the most influential one... AnonMoos (talk) 05:04, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing a drawing of Sybilla of Anjou

Dear reference desk,

Over at Commons we are having a discussion on this depiction of Sybilla of Anjou. A tiny image of the whole page can be found by a Google reverse search.

Does anyone here have an idea what the original source manuscript could be? Felix QW (talk) 09:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a montage using a different scan, or version, than the version shown on Commons. The location of the manuscript could be in Belgium, but the Royal Library of Belgium resource locator does not (,SearchTerms:'comte%20thierry%20de%20flandres',SessionGuid:a3ae67cd-94df-4239-ad4a-8676eee3ddd6,SortField:!n,SortOrder:0,TemplateParams:(Scenario:,Scope:Library,Size:!n,Source:,Support:,UseCompact:!f),UseSpellChecking:!n),sst:4)) return a description similar that the one searched. --Askedonty (talk) 12:43, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note that the probable "S" on Sibylla's dress could be indicative of a personal work very posterior to the event depicted. --Askedonty (talk) 13:32, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The full page which you found by a Google reverse search , although blurred is suggesting that the source has been found worth publishing in a decent and commented reproduction once. We have no indication regarding that publication however except that by the appearance of it, if mainstream it could be dated any time starting from the 1970s.. or later. Regarding the subject itself, and if it is indeed historical per se, the graphical process and the writing could be at the XVIIth century. The manner of shading so casualy distributed with probably ink and pen is improbable before that era. Regarding the writing, see [15] for similarities, 16C and XXc for contrast. Perhaps user User:Card Zero, well versed in such aspects will be willing to confirm. And I had some hard time trying to get at a result worth it but possibly Google unless it was me can be pushed and a little bit schooled - he finally almost complied with Gravelines. Page 16 features a scene taken from the same context - whereas live models feature more probably two pages later - the overall POP value of the tiny image is now shown constrasting with all of its virtues. --Askedonty (talk) 14:02, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm scrutinizing the extended version from the montage. This comes from a Belgian genealogy site, l'Association de famille van Outryve d'Ydewalle, but the site is down and the particular page didn't get archived. But anyway the drawing looks 16th century to me. This is mostly a hunch, but I can make a couple of objective points: the writing has extravagant ascenders and descenders and looks to be quickly scribbled with a quill - the 12th century was all about Carolingian miniscule and I don't know if casual jottings and sketches were made in ink at all - and various parts of the drawing are labelled with arabic numerals. A diagrammatic drawing with labelled parts is a typically 16th century thing, not earlier than that, and Arabic numerals were barely used in Europe before the 15th century (and not at all before the 14th).
The numbers presumably relate to a key to the colors of Thierry's tunic. I also note the date 1146 in the top right, so this drawing must depict Thierry getting ready to depart for the Second Crusade and Sybilla being sworn in as regent in his absence.
Same source?
He's holding a little church. That symbology means something, probably that he paid to build a church or cathedral. It's like the little model town being held by Saint Emidius in Crivelli's painting with the gherkin.
I found a view of the full page! It's somewhere on geni.com, but thus far I can only see it as a preview in Bing. Still, it's evidently taken from a reproduction in a German Dutch book, and the caption (if I squint) gives the source as Brussel, Koninklijke Bibliotheek, so yes, the original should be in the Royal Library of Belgium ... whatever it is.
Possibly something called "Memoriën van Anthonio de Succa" which seems to have been reproduced in 1977.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Must be it. I was just reading "Antoon de Sa.., historiograf van Albrecht en Isabella". Google did not recognize Antonio then yet. --Askedonty (talk) 18:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's available for download (in two volumes): Mémoriaux d'Antoine de Succa - the drawings are all in the back of volume II, and the one we need is on page 156 (of the pdf, not sure what the page is in the book).  Card Zero  (talk) 18:44, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for your investigation and the great contextual background- the two of you are fantastic! I have also ordered myself a copy as an inter-library loan, so maybe I can make a higher resolution scan of the plate than the one on the kikirpa website. Felix QW (talk) 20:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! But those virtual wanderings through enluminated medieval landscapes at the KBR were really worth the experience. Good luck with the plate now. --Askedonty (talk) 22:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Does a petition for divorce need to be sought free of duress?

Lets imagine a courtroom in a family court in some jurisdiction. For simplicity's sake, we'll pretend that the parties are representing themselves, rather than being represented by counsel:

WIFE: "I am petitioning for divorce from my husband."

HUSBAND (to the judge): "My wife doesn't really want this divorce; she loves me, and, were she free to make her own choice, would stay with me. It's just that her parents, who despise me, have threatened to disinherit her unless she leaves me!"

JUDGE (to the wife): "Is this true?"

WIFE: "yes! I love my husband, don't want to leave him if I had the choice, but I can't afford for my parents to cut me out of their will".

(end scene)

Ok. So there's the scene. Now, my question is, how would or should the judge react, and rule on either granting or refusing the divorce petition?

I gather that a marriage needs to be entered into under both parties' genuine free will, in order to be considered legally valid and binding. (The days when parents could legally forcefully choose their child's spouse are generally over, at least in the western world).

Now, a divorce, unlike a marriage, can generally be sought by only one party. BUT does that party need to be seeking the divorce of their own free will, free from duress or "undue influence"? Assuming the situation in the hypothetical courtroom above (where the petitioner was not disputing that a third party was the "driver" for seeking the divorce, and was applying pressure), would any judge see the law as allowing (or even requiring) him or her to reject the divorce petition? Has this question ever arisen? I'd be interested in answers from any western jurisdiction, or even answers on the legal theory.

(Yes, I know that in some jurisdictions, the husband could sue his father-in-law for Alienation of affections, but that's not really my question).

Disclaimer: I am not in this situation, nor do I know anybody who is, ergo this is not a request for legal advice. Post your disagreement if you disagree.

@John M Baker: I know family law is not your specialty, but given that you're a lawyer, I'm still curious if you have any musings to offer. @Neutrality: you, too, have shed light on legal dilemmas here before, so I welcome your thoughts. Others are invited to answer too, obviously. Eliyohub (talk) 09:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You ask three questions. It is not feasible to examine if this highly hypothetical issue has ever arisen in any Western jurisdiction. There are substantial differences in divorce law by country, even when restricting the attention to Western civilizations. In general, though, if the spouses do not agree, the requesting party needs to present a specific ground for the request. For the US, see Grounds for divorce (United States). Duress is not listed.  --Lambiam 18:41, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Grounds for divorce vary by jurisdiction. In the United States, typically the standard is whether there is an "irretrievable breakdown" of the marriage. Often the parties agree that there is an irretrievable breakdown, and if one party says there is and the other says there is not, that is itself evidence suggesting there may be an irretrievable breakdown. But in the scenario you posit, the parties agree that there is no irretrievable breakdown, so it is not clear that the wife would be able to obtain a divorce.
Generally speaking, courts do not look to see whether a party was free of third-party duress when initiating a divorce petition. That would just be one more thing for the parties to fight about, with no apparent benefit to the process. If you look for "divorce" and "duress," you will see thousands of cases, but most of these have to do with whether a settlement agreement between the parties was entered into under duress. John M Baker (talk) 22:18, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

clarity?

can it be said that rights come attached with interests and correspondingly a duty to show respect for the rights of others and that without which the rights become meaningless? Grotesquetruth (talk) 13:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It obviously can be said, since you just said it. But as a question at this ref desk, I find it a long bit off, since it is obviously more of a philosophical question than a factual question. --T*U (talk) 14:01, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My rights are always meaningful… your rights are meaningful until they conflict with my rights. When that happens the result is… politics. Blueboar (talk) 15:10, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
and this conflict takes place when the duty/obligation to show respect towards the right of the other is failed yes? Grotesquetruth (talk) 16:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily “failed”… but when rights conflict, people do tend to see the preservation of their rights as being more important than the preservation of the rights of others. Blueboar (talk) 17:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For various approaches to such issues, see our article Philosophy of law. This specific principle has certainly been argued. The extended principle no rights without duties; no duties without rights was part of the preamble to the provisional rules of the First International, inserted by Karl Marx himself, but also embraced by prominent anarchist Errico Malatesta.[16]  --Lambiam 18:12, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Carolingian languages

I'd like to find a linguistic map of the Carolingian Empire, preferably at its greatest territorial extent, showing the languages/dialects spoken there. I understand that we probably have just an approximate idea of the linguistic situation of that period of time. Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 17:55, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

File:Linguae in Galloromania.svg gives historic boundaries of various language areas that roughly correspond to this time frame.  --Lambiam 18:19, 6 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
File:AlthochdeutscheSprachräume962 Box.jpg gives historic boundaries of language areas farther east that roughly correspond to this time frame. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 16:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 7

Diaz painting

Our article on painter Narcisse Virgilio Díaz is in poor shape, as it is basically a copy of the old 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica entry. I'm trying to verify some of the information and update it, but there's one painting from the entry that is giving me some difficulty. The old entry mentions a painting named Sunset in the Forest (1868) which I can't find. Obviously, it's called by another name now. I have a hunch that it refers to The Edge of the Forest at Les Monts-Girard, Fontainebleau, 1868 because they share the same year and the sun does appear to be setting from the west. But, there are a few other possible candidates, such as Forêt de Fontainebleau (1868) at the Louvre, Fêt de Fontainebleau, enceinte palissadée (1868) at the Musée d'Orsay, and Lichtung im Wald von Fontainebleau (1868) at the Neue Pinakothek. Then again, if the 1911 encyclopedia got the date and the subject wrong, there are two other paintings from 1850 with the word sunset, Common with Stormy Sunset and Cows at Sunset, but I doubt either of those are correct. So, to summarize, I'm looking for whatever Sunset in the Forest (1868) is currently named today. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 01:35, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This dictionary of sales has two sold 1869: Paysage, soleil couchant and Une lisière de bois, au soleil couchant which unfortunately does not match the dimensions of The Edge of the Forest at Les Monts-Girard. fiveby(zero) 22:20, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for at least checking. Viriditas (talk) 23:53, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any logical rebuttal against the main argument of "Famine, Affluence, and Morality"?

Besides moral nihilism, is there any other logical rebuttal against the main moral argument made by Peter Singer in his 1971 essay Famine, Affluence, and Morality? StellarHalo (talk) 02:01, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Objectivism, perhaps, although I personally consider that school of thought to be repugnant. Cullen328 (talk) 06:49, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I take it you mean

If it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought, morally, to do it

as the main moral argument? To find nothing between nihilism and Singer's premise is to simply accept it as an absolute. Maybe moral skepticism as a step up from nihilism to other forms utilitarianism as a step down from "it seems we are all murderers"? Are you looking for more direct rebuttals to the paper such as Arthur's "rights and deserts" and Kekes' "rampant moralism" linked in the article, or some specific aspect such as impartiality? fiveby(zero) 19:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

criminal liability

what is the line of distinction between "common intention" and "common object" in criminal liability? why doesn't an unlawful assembly involve an element of common intention if the common object is clear? Grotesquetruth (talk) 10:03, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why does every question you ask seem like a homework problem? --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 16:12, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
wp:deny
@--Lambiam is this "common intent" an underlying aspect that is assumed to be present upon the furtherance of course of action towards achieving that "common purpose/common object"? Grotesquetruth (talk) 13:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Psychologist author David Joseph Weeks - an encyclop. relevant person?

David Joseph Weeks is the author of the scientific study Eccentrics: The Scientific Investigation and of the book Eccentrics: A Study of Sanity and Strangeness (the German translation has a Wikipedia article, de:Exzentriker: Über das Vergnügen, anders zu sein). David Joseph Weeks argues that many persons who are friendly but just do not worry about unjustified social demands for conformity are much more/better sane than the average person who always tries to satisfy these social demands. In Germany, his book has been discussed widely in the public media. Is he a well-known person in the English-speaking world? Should he be added (as a redlink) to the disambiguation page David Weeks? Thanks in advance, --Himbeerbläuling (talk) 17:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He was well known some time ago. I remember when people were talking about him in the states in the late 1980s just before his first book.[17]. I think it’s likely he also received a second wind after his 1995 book. Weeks is a neuropsychologist, so I’ll ping @Tryptofish for a more informed opinion. Viriditas (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I don't know anything about this. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:08, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Red links should not be the only link in a given entry on a disambiguation page; see MOS:DABRED. If the book is notable (see WP:NBOOK) we could include a stub and have a blue link for an entry in the dab page.  --Lambiam 20:40, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The book is notable as a popular culture oddity (one of the only or few works to explore the phenomenon of eccentricity), but in terms of science, it is considered greatly flawed due to its reliance on self-selection of survey participants, so it isn’t taken as seriously as it should. It’s a shame Weeks didn’t take the criticism he received from the scientific community at large and attempt to reboot the study. Viriditas (talk) 03:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to Viriditas for blueing the link. I think, this may finish the talk thread.--Himbeerbläuling (talk) 14:28, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gun violence in Los Angeles - 1990s

Have there been gangs, many gang-related deaths and shootings in Los Angeles during the '90s? 86.131.222.15 (talk) 22:02, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Crips were founded in 1969 and their bitter rivals, the Bloods, in 1972, so I think it's safe to say there was lots of gang-related mayhem in that decade. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:01, 7 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Interestingly, if you look at the 1992 congressional hearing data,[18] there was a significant drop in black on black gang killings by the 1990s. Most of the mayhem you are referring to peaked in the mid to late 1980s, with 1984 considered the high water mark. I personally recall the impact of the 1992 Watts truce throughout California. Our own article says it "was a major factor in the decline of street violence in the city between the 1990s and 2010s". So really, the kind of violence you are talking about was in the 1980s not the 1990s, and by the time Clinton was elected in the 1992 United States presidential election, scientists were discussing the fall in US crime rates, leading to various theories to explain it, such as the lead–crime hypothesis and the legalized abortion and crime effect. In other words, the 1990s was known for less gang-related deaths and shootings. Viriditas (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I stand (or sit) corrected. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:31, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See The History of Street Gangs in the United States: Their Origins and Transformations (2015). Viriditas (talk) 00:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I asked this because... In the final Father Ted episode called Going to America, Ted was offered a parish in America and was so excited he accepted. Until he learned there were gangs, deaths and shootings there. See the episode fast-forward at 21:43-23:05 on Dailymotion. 86.131.222.15 (talk) 21:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lowest number of homicides in Los Angeles County in the 1990s was 891 in 1999 (highest was 1,944 in 1993). [19] The number of murders in County Galway (the supposed location of Craggy Island) in 1990 was 17. [20] Alansplodge (talk) 11:23, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 8

USA stock market question.

Is it good or bad for the company when the stock market rises or drops? I always think it's the opposite for the user. So if it goes up, that is bad for the company because people are gonna sell and the company loses money. And if it drops, then people are shortly putting money into it. Or is it the same for the user when it drops/rises? 67.165.185.178 (talk) 00:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]

wp:deny
So we're getting and losing the money other people put in / took out, from the stock? 67.165.185.178 (talk) 13:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
I think you're simplifying this too much. Most shareholders usually don't sell every time their stock value goes up; they instead hope it will keep rising. And if a stock drops, sure, some buyers will see it as a buying opportunity, others will panic and sell more. The company will still own some of its own shares. But most of the shares aren't the concern of the company anymore. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 17:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are all white people racist?

I am not white but I have to ask this question since quite a handful of academics especially the "critical race theorists" believe that the answer is yes.

Barbara Applebaum: "All white people are racist or complicit by virtue of benefitting from these privileges, even though these privileges cannot be voluntarily renounced through individual action"

In her book White Fragility, Robin DiAngelo says that "White identity is inherently racist; white people do not exist outside the system of white supremacy."

In her book Privilege Revealed: How Invisible Preference Undermines America, Stephanie Wildman writes that "Whites spend a lot of time trying to convince ourselves and each other that we are not racist. A big step would be for whites to admit that we are racist and then to consider what to do about it."

Derald Sue says that "Seen from this vantage point, Whiteness is an invisible veil that cloaks its racist deleterious effects through individuals, organizations, and society."

Noel Ignatiev of the journal Race Traitor says in page 608 of the book Critical White Studies that "We believe that so long as the white race exists, all movements against what is called 'racism' will fail"

In February 2021, leaked screenshots revealed that Coca Cola's online racism training encourages employees to be "less white"

StellarHalo (talk) 04:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can't tell if this is for real, but don't forget xenophobism. 67.165.185.178 (talk) 08:05, 8 October 2022 (UTC).[reply]
Racism is not limited to white on non-white. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 10:48, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is. If a white person says "I hate black people", it's racist. If a black person says "I hate white people", it's not racist. --Viennese Waltz 12:59, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment works only in countries predominantly populated by whites. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:52, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't. You don't seem to understand. Racism is not just saying that you hate a certain race of people. Racism is a systematic form of oppression that specifically targets marginalised groups. White people are not a marginalised group, even in countries where they form a minority of the population. Ergo, whites cannot be the victims of racism. --Viennese Waltz 16:12, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to one particular definition, you are correct. Most people do not use that definition, I'd venture; they're far more likely to use the definition that existed prior to the power+prejudice formulation, as a synonym for bigotry. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 17:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That definition bears a striking resemblance to the excrement of an adult male bovine. Racism is hatred based on race. End of sentence. Or do you think a single Nazi living in Nairobi could not be described as racist? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:48, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck proving that it's only white-majority countries which have systemic racism. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:09, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you didn't read my last post. Read it again: this has nothing to do with majority ethnicities in particular countries. It is structural. --Viennese Waltz 21:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can accept that racism is systemic, structural, whatever you want to call it. I can't accept that it's an exclusively white-on-non-white situation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
People should not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. The notion of a "white race" is an unscientific monstrosity.  --Lambiam 12:21, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Navy promotions

In Hornblower and the Atropos, Hornblower is made a captain because the Commander-in-Chief is retiring and is allowed to grant three promotions: midshipman to lieutenant, lieutenant to commander and commander to captain. Is this historically accurate? Clarityfiend (talk) 07:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't find anything obvious, but perhaps the answer lies in Commissioned officers' careers in the Royal Navy, 1690–1815, should you have time to peruse it. Hornblower's career is often said to be based on that of Lord Cochrane, but he was promoted to post captain through the normal channels at The Admiralty, a process much delayed by his earlier court marshal for insubordination, in which he was found not guilty but was reprimanded for his behaviour. Alansplodge (talk) 11:11, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The line where Cornwallis on giving up the Channel Command states Don’t you remember what is the last privilege granted a retiring Commander-in-Chief?...I’m allowed three promotions. Midshipman to Lieutenant. Lieutenant to Commander. Commander to Captain comes at the end of Hornblower and the Hotspur In the unfinished Hornblower and the Crisis Mardsen says We have not forgotten Admiral Cornwallis’s recommendation that you should be made post and Barrow There would be no need to find you a ship, Captain...You could be given a command in the Sea Fencibles which would confer post rank
At the time commanders-in-chief on foreign stations had the power of promotion, tho subject to later confirmation by the Admiralty.[21][22] I don't see why this "last privilege" would be needed for foreign commands, but perhaps as a courtesy of the First Lord to give some matching power of patronage to Admirals in the prestigious home waters commands. Morrow John (2018). "Admirals and the Georgian Patronage Network". British Flag Officers in the French Wars 1793-1815., tho an earlier period, has comments on the conflicts and jealousies concerning promotion between the commanders and First Lords. Looks promising if someone can tease the missing pages and citations from google. fiveby(zero) 15:01, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Advancing goals of equity

Is there a potential welfare policy model that advances goals of equity? One that goes beyond or is different from the usual welfare policies or acts in addition to besides the government's role as a provider of well-being? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by Grotesquetruth (talk o contribs) 09:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"... - AnonMoos (talk) 10:18, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@--Lambiam any thoughts on this? Grotesquetruth (talk) 06:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Great Wall of China - Documentary 2007

In this documentary, Geng Zhou was a real-life or fictional character, or maybe modeled after one of Qi Jiguang's soldiers? Moreover, can you find information about the mongol leader Chang Ang and his brother? Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.207.137.162 (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have you find something?

Abrahamic Religions

  • Why did non-Jewish cultures (Gentiles, Hellenic, Romans, Arabic) absorb / modify / accept an "alien" religion? Christianity seems to have applied a minimal filter (eating a pork Schnitzel is permitted), the Quran has added a couple of prophets (Alexander the Great (?) and Mohammed). But, by and large, the narrative of the OT was maintained, with clear divergencies to the Quranic Isa / Jesus.

Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:10, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why does any culture adapt an non-indigenous religion? Why did pagan Europe become Christian? Why was Yahwism adopted by the polytheists of the Middle East? --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 19:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly why Constantine the Great came to adopt Christianity is debated, but he brought it into the mainstream of the Roman Empire. Conversions of later pagan monarchs were often done not out of religious enlightenment, but to open the door to western civilisation, perhaps like former Communist countries applying to join the EU. Alansplodge (talk) 20:21, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was about to say ... a likely answer to the second question is "because the Romans did". The Western Roman Empire collapsed, but the popes and Clovis I and Charlemagne prospered, and hence the Holy Roman Empire, and they had missionaries.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Jewish monotheism and high ethical standards were attractive to many non-Jews in the Roman empire, and there were non-Jewish "God-fearers" who kind of circled around Judaism without converting. Actually converting was a problem for many, since to fully become a Jew, you basically had to abandon your previous ethnicity and adopt the Jewish ethnicity, obey many ritual prohibitions, be circumcised if male, etc. From that point of view, Christianity came to be an alternative to Judaism with many of the same attractive features as Judaism, but without as many barriers to conversion. AnonMoos (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM -- The attitudes of Christians towards Jewish scripture and the attitudes of Muslims toward Jewish scripture are actually dramatically divergent. Christians incorporated Jewish scripture into their own scripture (and often other ancient books written by Jews, what Protestants call the "Apocrypha"), while Muslims give no special authority to Jewish scripture. The traditional Islamic view is that everything necessary to salvation is contained in the Qur'an, and if anything in Jewish (or Christian) scriptures contradicts anything in the Qur'an, then ipso facto they are corrupted. Muhammad learned everything he knew about Judaism and Christianity strictly orally, from Jews and Christians who were apparently not always the most knowledgeable and orthodox in their own faiths, and who did not always distinguish between the Bible and post-biblical writings. That's why we find in the Qur'an that Haman of the Book of Esther assisted the Pharoah of the Book of Exodus to build the Tower of Babel of the Book of Genesis, while King Solomon was mainly an occult magician who talked to ants. AnonMoos (talk) 21:59, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why did non-Jewish cultures (Gentiles, Hellenic, Romans, Arabic) absorb / modify / accept an "alien" religion?

The answer is syncretism. It wasn’t alien at all. Nor was it novel, original, or unique. The Jews themselves adapted the myths, legends, and stories from other cultures before them. Viriditas (talk) 08:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple Launch Rocket System in the Yom Kippur War

I was reading the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System article because I saw this system mentioned on the news[23]. A sentence caught my attention: 

This mindset began to change following the 1973 Yom Kippur War, which saw high loss rates, especially from rear-area weapons like surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), as well as the effective Israeli tactic of hitting such sites with MRLs.

Which Multiple Launch Rocket System did the Israeli forces employ during the Yom Kippur War? Thanks. Helian James (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BM-24. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 18:26, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They also devised a home-grown system based on that, called MAR-290, which fortuitously (for them) entered service in 1973, just in time. Alansplodge (talk) 19:47, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! Thank you both. Helian James (talk) 19:49, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved

Some neck

According to our banjolele article, it has the body of a banjo and the neck of a ukulele. Having read all three articles I am no wiser as to the difference between the necks of a banjo and a ukulele. Can anyone here explain the difference? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

According to Banjo vs. Banjolele (What’s The Difference?), the neck of the ukulele is shorter than that of a banjo. 136.56.52.157 (talk) 21:46, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Most ukuleles have only 12 or 14 frets before the body. Banjos range between 17 and 24 usable frets. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 22:25, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The instrument pictured in the banjolele article seems to have 17.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:48, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The four-string plectrum banjo is said to have 22 frets. Maybe --jpgordon means exclusively: "usable" frets ? --Askedonty (talk) 22:58, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

October 9

Civil / Roman law - idea of good father

Resolved

I have an aspect of a big question: How to act normally as an adult? The person should be respectful, careful so have to pay preventive attention of the surroundings. As I know Romans wrote about an independent individual responsibilities as how "Good father" acts. My guess there should be described roots, mentions and details of "all the diligence of a good father of a family to prevent damage." I found this YT video [24]LAW ON OBLIGATION - DETERIMINATE THING & DILIGENCE OF A GOOD FATHER but it has no sources. I cant find wikipedia article what mention this topic. Thanks. Rodrigo (talk) 08:26, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps start with our article Pater familias. Alansplodge (talk) 10:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the hint @Alansplodge:, I found my track Pater familias >> Bonus pater familias >> Reasonable person. --Rodrigo (talk) 11:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Culture series

Hacker News told me I had to read the Culture series or else, so I got a copy of Consider Phlebas and dived in, and I was not prepared for this. I’ve never read anything by Ian M. Banks before so this style of science fiction is very different than what I’m used to. I’m more of a Remembrance of Earth's Past kind of person so this is hard pill for me to swallow with all the killing and cannibalism. Is it worth it for me to stick it out and continue with the series, or should I just give up and call it a day? I love hard science fiction, but this, I don’t know if I can read about people eating other people. Viriditas (talk) 08:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's hoping she has her toy back

Did Mahtob Mahmoody ever get her Toby Bunny back?2603:7000:8100:F444:412:4DDE:E611:E730 (talk) 10:36, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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