User talk:PaxEquilibrium

Please post new messages to the bottom of my talk page. I will respond at your talk page unless you request otherwise. Thank you. Design copied from User:Duja.

Archives 24 August 2005 – 1 January 2006 1 January 2006 –

Medieval Bosniachood

There are sourced claims of Bosniakhood of people you removed from this article http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Bosniaks&diff=71101922&oldid=70751197

you can find sources here http://geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bosniak (talk • contribs) 02:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Your provacation

Your provacation is tellen to other users your karakter. You are not interest for Kosovo article but to diskriminet the users witch dont know so well english. Thate is all what you whant, this is part of your dirty games. I know thate the Kosovo article is full of serbian propagander but I dont wont to lose my time with you . My target is to make the minro for neutral users. And I have maked You all, cane not presante ONE UN DOCUMENT in witch is tanding "KOSOVO IS PART OF SERBIA". By, by loser— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.105.244 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The rest of Kosovo article is mytologie beacose the head of the article is starting with mytologie UN dont accept thate Kosovo is part of Serbia. I dont know why, I dont to know only one think I know the UN members have forgetit this name Serbia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.105.244 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea how am I provoking you. No, I am not particularely interested in the Kosovo article - and I share discrimination for no one. I don't play dirty games. The Kosovo article is not full of Serbian propaganda - everyone has agreed to that version. I am neutral, you can talk to me about anythin', mate. I can't present one UN document saying "Kosovo is part of Serbia", just like I can't find a single UN document saying "Vojvodina is part of Serbia". What makes me a loser? What do you percisely mean by "mythology"? UN members haven't forgotten it - Kosovo is officially a part of independent Serbia. --PaxEquilibrium 23:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

HRE

You have changet your user name to complicet thinks like Serbia in Balkan or what is your target???— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.105.244 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Serbia really did complicate things in the Balkans a lot, didn't it? :) --PaxEquilibrium 23:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

People trying to speak English

Nevertheless, Join my project: WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina. Pozdrav, Kseferovic 03:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Name Change

Why? I liked the old one. It suited you. Davu.leon 13:04, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

He can't change it back, even if he tried. Someone else took his username and I guess is also Montenegrin because he is editing Montenegro-related articles. Crna Gora 18:00, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

In a good way. It was just a little confusing seeing someone else talking in the same articulate and reasoned idiom, expounding the same views, until I realised what had happened. Davu.leon 09:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I know this isn't the place to post this, but I just wanted to say that reading your posts from the last week or two has greatly increased my respect for you. (Not saying that there was none before.) Living in Kosovo, it's very easy to have a slanted view on anyone who supports Serbian policy, but, although I disagree with many of your viewpoints, I find you to be consistently civil and reasonable. I hope that more people like you will be involved in contentious articles in the future, especially as we move towards a final status that is sure to anger at least one side of the debate, and that, regardless of our differences, we'll be able to reach a compromise without reverting to (virtual) fighting. Basically keep it up, you're doing a good job. Davu.leon 21:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right, policy isn't exactly the right word. Let's just say that your natural sympathies seem to lie more often on the Serbian side, as mine would on the Albanian. And as for the views on which I disagree, don't worry, you'll hear plenty from me when they come up ;) Davu.leon 15:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

HRE active again

What the... OK, what's happening here? Are you editing Wikipedia as HolyRomanEmperor? Did you register the acc or somebody else did? --Dijxtra 19:57, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's no matter to you, but to people who don't know that you changed usernames it does matter since they'll think it's you. I'm blocking the guy ASAP. --Dijxtra 20:35, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not a polity, it's just that you claimed to been a target of impersonation before, and you don't know who edits under your old username. It could well be the same person which took your identity last time, don't you think? I think we're better off by blocking in this case. --Dijxtra 20:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure about the same identity.
There are some changes in attitudes, previously unthinkable that HRE would write something like this. Maybe I'm wrong, but have such a feeling. Kubura 13:42, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Odgovor

Pa znam da albanski korisnici optužuju Krisa da je Srbin, a još kad sam video tu reč, pomislio sam da su u pravu. :)) Što se Banata tiče, u vreme Turaka Srbi su bili najbrojniji narod u Banatu, s tim da su Srbi kompaktno naseljavali zapadni Banat, Rumuni istočni, dok je srednji Banat (sa Temišvarom) imao mešano srpsko-rumunsko stanovništvo, ali su Srbi preovlađivali. E sad otkud srednji Banat većinski Rumunski? Rumuni su se malo širili seobom, malo se mešali sa Srbima, pa se deo Srba porumunio, pored toga se i mnogo Nemaca naselilo u srednji Banat, pa su ih Rumuni posle drugog svetskog rata proterali, pa se naselilo onda tu još Rumuna, itd... PANONIAN (talk) 21:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Answer about my statement

Hello my friend! Please don't categorise the question of Trianon as an ancient historical event. I don't want to restore the border of Greater-Hungary. It will be unfair and wronger than the current borders. But the current borders are also bad and unfair. I live in Senta. Watch out for its demographics, please. As you can see mre then 80% of the inhabitants are Hungarian, and the remaining 20% is not only Serb. The situation is very similar in Kanjiža, Ada, Bačka Topola etc. We don't need to speak in Serbian because in most of the shops the trader knows to speak on the majority language. The other problem is the rising of the Serb extreme nationalism. Most of the settlers who have come from Republika Srpska, Slavonia causing problems because of the wars they have anti-"minority" sentiments and use violence against Hungarians. After the seccession of Montengro their number is growing and after the future independence of Kosovo there will much more chauvinist inhabitants. Just think about it. They escape from Kosovo just because they can't stand the Montenegrin an Albanian authoroties. This is my "short" answer about my point of view. If you want to know mre about it we should talk. I've always enjoyed to speak with someone who has moderate political views. Hey I am an idealist to! :) And also a war-efugee. What kind of idealism do you support? HunTheGoaT 21:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh sorry!:( My English is still not good enough. I've written that I am a war refugee, but I had thought that means to oppose wars. Sorry I'm was stupid. No I'm not a war refugee. Can I speak Hungarian everywhere in Vojvodina? Maybe in fairy tales. In the reality there is always some Serbs who want to hit me when he hears that I am speaking in Hungarian. The second problem is that I and many of my friends cannot speak Serbian well. Because the mode of Serbian language's education is very bad. On Serbian language lessons we learn more about the Serbian history than about the language itself. And the lections are mostly in somekind of ancient slavic language. It's not a joke. We sometimes read stories in pre-Vuk Karadžić Serbian language or in Macedonian. That's not very usefull. The education mode should be changed. Now I know the meaning of word war refugee and I became sad when I read it in the dictionary:( So you may have bad things in your memory when someone is talking about the Yugoslav wars. Why have you become a war refugee?HunTheGoaT 22:

Headline text

sdfsfsdfsd14, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't understand these pdfsdfsdfeople. Why they use there national sentiments to discriminate other. I like to be Magyar as you can see on my userpage. I like our nations literature the Hungarian poems are sdfsdfewrwoielfknosidoiweeflkjdsifoweiflkjflsdfsd

fsd fs dfsidjfiweoijfolidjfokweflkw owiefoiweoiwe owie owierwejfoid dfgjdfpo gpdfoig0erijgooidfh goidf gofdi jgodfijgodf jrbi de jebio sde the worlds more rythmic ones. And Hungarian is the language of vowel harmony as linguists say. My mothertoungh is one of the beutyful langueges in the world. I love my etnicity but this is not a reason to hate others. We shouldn't use our nationality to discriminate other cultures. In my opinio nall cultures are nice in their own way. So I am against cultural globalisation but I support the idea of coproductive nations. Can I ask where do you live now?HunTheGoaT 17:55, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Both of us live in the world. But in which city, town of village where you have a house or a flat. Where is the computer that you make your articles. With that computer you can connect with the whole world. But WHERE is it? This is just a simple friendly question that the people usually ask from each other. OK if you don't want to answer it that is your problem.

HunTheGoaT 18:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes of course you've answered it. I'm just a student at the moment so unfortunatly the school takes all my time and I've got no time for writing a lot of article but if I write one watch out for that please. I am intrested in your oppinion about them because you looks like a kind and a calm person whose statements are real valuable.HunTheGoaT 19:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Montenegro

I'm assuming you are the same guy I was having a debate about Montenegran identity? Here is my response:

Wait, wait, wait... Please re-read the list that I gave you - and tell me, would it be wrong to Consider Montenegrins Croats (or at least by origin). Just tell me that (and as I recall you supported 1's words of all Bosnian are ethnic Croats).

As I recall, I merely pointed to the observation that such a claim was probably a debased one & that in place of the word "all", the author meant "most". In the case of the notion that "most Bosnians were ethnic Croat", I would not find it a radical thing to say that. Having said that, I reiterate that such debates are usually devoid of academic value and subject to political manipulations. I would also consider such claims personally as having ambiguous meaning, what does it mean for a whole people to be ethnic <insert nationality here>, beyond a sense of cultural kinship?

Serb state control over the territory or control by a Serbian elite? What on earth are you talking about? The greater part of Montenegro speaks the root Serbian language - East Herzegovinian dialect, spoken also in Republika Srpska and West Serbia (and Dubrovnik). Dubrovnik, Herzegovina and parts of Dalmatia speak the same Croatian dialect. I have roots from Eastern Herzegovina and plenty of family in Dubrovnik (which incidently has alot of Croats from Herzegovina). Trust me on this one.

What I mean by state control is that throughout history smaller cultures/nations can seem non-existent, subsumed by a larger neighbour. Such is the case with the Macedonians and Slovenians, Bosnjiaks and Montenegrans.

The smaller part speaks an indiginous Kosovar Zetan dialect of the Serbo-Croat. Historicly, the Serbian language has been official in the constitution of 1910; and all Montenegrin works were written strictly in that language. the existence of similar or common language does not preclude separate identity as is the case with the Fins & Swedes for example. There's a problem here - Finnish is a lot more different than Swedish - and Finns don't call their language "Swedish language", but "Finnish" instead.

Again, under foreign state control, the dominant powers language would be imposed and considering the similarity of the languages, the process would be seemless. Just as you claimed that the independence movement has strong support from todays govt institutions, so too the unitarists campaign during WW1, and the first Jugoslavia would have had a free hand to foster assimilation into the Serbian identity.

There isn't a strong Montenegrin nationality today - with every census, more and more montenegrins opt Serbian nationality instead of Montenegrin and more and more montenegrins opt the Montenegrin language and the Montenegrin Orthodox Church, rather than the Serbian language or the Serbian Orthodox Church. The only strong Montenegrin national identity exists within the current nationalistic regime and the minority of the so-called "docleano-montenegrins", which belong to a radical group that's pro-Croat orientated, support Greater Croatian nationalist ideology, xenophoby and found quasi-historical research centers such as the "Doclean Academy of Sciences and Arts". Extremists don't deserve mention.

Yet, there is a strong enough Montenegran nationality for them to reclaim their independence in 2006 and is certainly not a case of doing it solely for economic reasons. Down near Cetinje, after the result was known, a minority of Montenegran nationalist were singing derogatory songs about Serbs and equating them to Chetniks. The WW2 attrocities from the war between Montengran Nationalists and Greater Serb Chetniks are still remembered by some.

To equate the Montenegran Independence movement as some orphan of Croat nationalism (through the history of Red Croatia) goes counter to some pertinent facts. For starters, the Montenegrans had independence pre-Jugoslavia Mk1. 40% odd declare Montenegran ethnicity at the last census. Montenegro has declared independence in 2006.

In WWII - what on earth are you talking about? The so-called "Kingdom of Montenegro" was ruled by a fascist Italian Axis puppet-regime that based itself upon the extermination of Jews, Romas and the Serbian element in Montenegro.

So was the Serbia under Milan Nedic and NDH under Ante Pavelic. Does that invalidate the notions of Serb and Croat nationalities or states?

Anyone declaring openly a Serb - was dispatched to Jasenovac, Kotor or elsewhere. In 1941 the people of Montenegro raised a Chetnik rebellion, which almost managed to overthrough the Governor's regime. With the help of the Ustasha armed forces (not many montenegrins decided to collaborate and fight), Governor Sekula Drljevic either slaughtered the Chetniks or fought-off the minority to the Royal Independent State of Croatia and/or to the Kingdom of Serbia. His next move was to eradicate anyone whatsoever related to the Chetniks and/or anything Serbian, when his Ustasha, Italian and other collaborationist corps ethnicly cleansed over 10% of Montenegro's population.

Are you are aware that disparate chetnik units collaborated with either Ustasha, German Nazis or Italian Fascists? So much so that the allies stop sending them aid. The Montenegran Chetniks were merely carrying out the plan to create Greater Serbia and to that end collaborated with fascists. Here's a link on the nature of such collaboration; http://www.vojska.net/eng/world-war-2/montenegro/chetniks/

Point is that a fascist government does not invalidate a national identity.

The fascistoid regime retreated to Zagreb, where it founded a Government in Exile after the Axis forces introduced martial control and were subsequently expelled by the Partisans; drafting there a constitution and re-writing the Montenegrin national anthem so that it could evade mentioning anything Serbian. In 1945, the People's Assembly of Montenegro declared In Montenegro live only the purest of Serbs, however, Tito responded by Montenegrins are Serbs, different from other Serbs, and a dark period of history came until it was formalized in 1946 that all Montenegrins, no matter of origin accept the Montenegrin nationality - naturally, only Serbs accepted this on large scale. It is not until 1974 that the Serbian element in Montenegro was eradicated, when the Communists mass-burned several Churches, including the personal endowment of Njegos himself.

It is a flaw to denote Montenegran Independence as some sort of Fascist invention. The same notion was tried with Croatdom despite it's rich history - hence I take any such notion with skepticism. The 1974 constituion was an attempt to short circuit the ongoing battle between fedaralists and unitarits adn formalise the equality of nations concept which was the foundation of the Partisan movement. Otherwise you would not have a Croatia or Bosnia or Macedonia Or Crnagora for fear of the Greater Serbia politics of the 1st Jugoslavia.

Whilst I concede that there may be some credence to the historical and cultural kinship you bring up, I think the notion of ethnic origin of a whole people is flawed, subject to misinterpretation and goes counter to modern day reality. croatian_quoll 07:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the map of the 1954 linguistic census. It was made by Croat and international experts: "The Grammatics of the Croatian or Serbian language". The pink colour show the shtokavian iekavian speakers - of whome the vast majority speaks the east Herzegovina dialect - most/all of them were ethnic Serbs (except for Dubrovnik Croats - although that again turns down to their ol' controversy of once being Serbs).

What is iekavian? I was under the impression that there are only three standards of the Stokavian dialect, ikavian (Dalmatian and on the Islands), ijekavian (nominally associated with Croatian and used in parts of Slavonia, BiH, Dubrovnik, considered the pure standard by purists of the Croatian language), and ekavian (nominally associated with Serbian and dominant in Serbia, and also associated withthe Kajkavian dialect). I have never heard of half ikavian or ijekavian. I take the map with a grain of salt as I would anything that came from the 1954 Novi Sad agreement, because of the alleged duress from Communist authorities involved. The conference was a political attempt to artificially unify the Croatian and Serbian languages. croatian_quoll 06:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

You note Serbian state control - just problem is, there was no such. Serbia was created in the 19th century - while Montenegro practicly never ceased to exist (really formed in the late 17th century - drawing origins from even the early 16th). Compare the Montenegrins to Dalmatians - Dalmatians are nowdays assimilated into the Croatian national being.

Apart from the Serbian empire of the 14th century, you have the fragile state of Rascia which often was subjugated by the Bulgar and Byzantine states, and in periods of neighbours influence declining, Rascia would expand to include parts of BiH and Crnagora where after a certain time, Serbian princes established themselves. Dalmatian wasn't a nationality (unless you are referring to Roman/Illyrian inhabitants prior to the arrival of the Croats), It was geographic reference stemming from the name of the Roman prefecture. That geographic reference exists today. Dalmatia was the territory where the White Croats formed their state. Furthermore, there never was an indigenous Dalmatian independence movement. Autonomists were either local Serbs or Italians that sought union with their respective neighbours. Monenegro on the other hand has an indigenous population (that is not to preclude Serbs as a constituent nation of Montenegro), that voted for independence. croatian_quoll 06:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Comparison between Milan and Ante or Sekule, who were real leaders cannot be done.

I think the differentiation you make is artificial. Both Ante and Milan lobbied their political masters (Hitler) in order to curry favour. Both had their own forces in addition to occupation forces (German or Italian). In the NDH, the black legion had to move base from Mostar to Sarajevo b/c Mostar was in Italian sphere of influence and the Italians did not want an elite Croatian force there. Both had parts of their country carved out and given to a neighbour. Both were under the delusion that they were acting in their country's best interest (i.e. their collaboration was born out of existential reasons).croatian_quoll 06:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

There were many reasons for the 2006 Montenegrin seccession. And they were good reasons. But the truth behind it cannot stay hidden. Milo Djukanovich (who was unarguably a Serbian nationalist and descendent of those very same Chetniks) used/fueled Montenegrin nationalism to save himself from jail. While the top government's official have political immunity, Republican do not - and he is the most wanted man in Italy, not to mention his other henious crimes.

I find it hard to believe that 55% of Montenegro's population voted for independence b/c of Government propaganda motivated to keep Djukanovich out of jail (I don't question the possibility of the motivation, but I question it's relevance and relation to what the voters wanted and that was an independent Montenegro). 70 odd years of Jugoslavia and promotion of Jugoslavian nationality and barely 15% of the population considered themselves Jugoslav. Yet in Montenegro, you have 43%+ calling themselves Montenegran.croatian_quoll 06:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use "Greater Serb" - the actual term is POV.

The term is NPOV. It describes the ideology of appending all territory considered historically or ethnically Serbian to the current Serb boundaries. It is no different or no more POV than Greater Germany, Greater Albania, Greater Croatia etc.

Despite the Red Croatia theory and historical reference, and those who support it, there is a Montenegran nation that has more in common with the Herzegovinans (Croats and Serbs) and the Croatians in Dalmatia. And this nation voted overwhelmingly for independence whereas the autochonous Serbs voted against it. croatian_quoll 06:14, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Check out the new reorder of the Balkans. The West sees this as the solution to the Balkan Question. While Croatia would receive a south-western Croatian-populated part of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Montenegro are seen as "United Serb States" together with a part of the Croatian coastline at Prevlaka and the northern part of Kos-met; while the greater part of Metohija and Kosovo would become part of a greater Albania, together with most northwestern Macedonia

Certainly interesting but highly unlikely - especially in light of the Montenegrans voting for independence and likely independence for Kosovo. The prevlaka and Posavina issue also seems problemmatic. Is there a source outside the Njegos website that has any information on this?

---

With this - unfortunately my Cyrillic is a little rusty. :-) Well, there is no real clear definition of the difference between dialect and language. However, the unification of the Croatian and Serbian languages into Serbo-Croat was also political as was it's unravelling. It followed the pan-slavic groups and attempts to subvert Austro-Hungarian Hegemony via the vehicle of South Slav unity for some, an expansion of the Serb state for others. An example of this was the 1954 Novi Sad conference which tried to Serbianise the Croat language and in effect created one standard, as well the political repercussions including the Croatian Spring. But Croatian and Serbian, despite large sections of commonality are disparate languages in terms of their historical and cultural development (Croatian being more diverse - ca, kaj, sto - whereas in Serbian one standard seems to dominate), and differs in terms of the use of neologisms.

Is Serbo-Croat still an official language of any country / institution? If not, then does it not make it a dead language? :-)

I think it is true that Dioclea and even Bosnia would at times take over territory of Rascia. It's certainly the case that Dioclea was firmly in the Serbia sphere or orbit from about the 12th century? onwards. But the ethnic/national reality of today suggests that there was an underlying national identity that was overshadowed by the bigger neighbour to the north east. THe same applied to Bosnjiaks. The term more Montenegrins was for a state union with Serbia - how is this determined and what does it mean exactly? What is defined as Montenegran - those Serbs that have a strong Montenegran regional idenity, or those of the Montenegran nation, separate from Serbs? Has this type of national question ever been asked in a poll? If it is a poll question, then I can see big issues with the research design.

Milan Nedic had a government (see [[1]]), albeit a puppet one, and was in charge of day to day affairs, including the concentration camps such as Banjaca and the persecution of Jews and Roma. No different to the Petain government of Vinchy France. The Pavelic government, like the Nedic government was an unelected minority group imposed by Germany/Italy. The question of influence is a red herring - Ante and Milan were both collaborationists, with the supposed existential concern for their people, both took part in the machinations that resulted in persecutions and ultimately both caused their peoples great harm. If there was a difference, it would be in the view of the first Jugoslavia and their perception of it's makeup (federalist vs unitarist) or even association with it (independence vs maintenance).

The point about the Serbian medieval state is that it's history along with the SPC were the vehicles for perpetuation of an identity identity (initially elite based until the modern era of popular based nationalism). Thus, the interpretation of that state has an important influence in shaping modern national movenments - the same applies to the Croat medieval state, although Croatia was never entirely conquered by the Turks and perpetuity was ensured through state institutions and the existence of Croatia as a Hungarian/Hasburg crown land, initial as a whole and later as a triune kingdom.

I think you can sum up the likes of Djukanovic (and Milosevic) into one word - "careerist". However, there is one crucial difference b/w him and Milosevic - Milosevic tried to hang onto power no matter what. Djukanovic has won his elections, including the last which was free and fair (don't know about previous elections). And even after winning power, he has decided to retire (incidently, do you know why he retired?). What does the ICTY want him for? - the attack on Dubrovnik?

The fact that the head of state and head of the MPS are Serbs does complicate things. But doesn't preclude the existence of an Montenegran "ethnicity".

I am still interested in the New Balkan draft. DO you know where the Njegos site sourced it's information. Cheers, croatian_quoll 02:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Shkodër

Hi Pax, I see you've been having issues at the Shkodër article. Do you need any assistance? --Tekleni 15:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it. Interestingly, the dispute seems to be about languages - if you check the revision histories of Korçë, Sarandë, Himarë, Gjirokastër etc, you'll see quite a bit of edit warring over the names; they seem to consider it Greek irredentist claims to Albania. That's odd considering Albanian nationalists are claiming territory form almost all their neighbors. Also, sorry for changing my username (Special:Log/renameuser) in the middle of the discussion - I followed your example! --Tekleni 18:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Arpagjiki

Yes I'm aware that it was a plain removal. But that part of the article had no connection whatsoever with Albanian language, and because of that it deserved to be deleted. Thanks for the welcoming message by the way! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arpagjiki (talk • contribs) 14:02, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

There was a socalled chechen-albanian-english dictionary, the words that it contained had no meaning with english language. It's obvious that it was wirtten by some retarded guy who maybe thought that he had discovered america :P. These kind of things shouldn't be tolerated here in wikipedia! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arpagjiki (talk • contribs) 07:44, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Constitution of Croatia

The text in question was changed in 1997 or so. The original 1990 version ran as I quoted, check it here. --Elephantus 04:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I was born in Trebinje but lived there only until the age of 6, then we went to Dubrovnik (Ragusan is my name here!!). Since 1982 I have lived with my wife in England. But my sister tells me it is typical autumn for Herzegovina (she is in Trebinje now). But I am still Balkanite at heart! :) Ragusan 23:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Serbs of Mostar

You want to help me out with this? I'd really appreciate it :) --estavisti 01:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:

I'm from Montenegro. My mom is from Berane while my dad is from Podgorica. Emperor of Europe 15:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, no. I'm Muslim. How about you? (the clan thing) Emperor of Europe 16:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello!!!

I just got back to Wikipedia, but I don't understand why you mean I was furious. Are you saying that because of my high anti-Islamic sentiment? Or, you may have another reason, which I don’t know. --Pjetër Bogdani III 03:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It’s not that I hate Muslims or something... I respect their right to observe their religion but I don’t believe it is right for them to destroy our culture. You understand. I am not against Muslims who deal with their own affairs but I am against those who direct all their deeds against Christianity and/or Western Civilization.--Pjetër Bogdani III 01:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

And by the way I am really eager to find out why you called me furious…--Pjetër Bogdani III 01:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand you. I have a lot of Muslim friends and I am OK with Albanian Muslims because they are oriented towards the nation and not the religion. It's their right to practice the faith if they want... But, I strongly disagree with what Ottomans for example did. Saudi Arabia, for instance, is fine for me because they don't bother anybody with their faith. But Iran is doing the contrary...--Pjetër Bogdani III 04:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Time Range of Serbdom as the official ideology of Montenegro

I wish I knew the answer, but,I don't. Nevertheless, in our quest to find out, I would make a distinction between Serbdom as an officially adopted state ideology and Serbdom being existent as only one of competing ideologies. Momisan 03:27, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I still don't quite understand your question. It looks like now you are asking: "When is the first time when terms 'Serb' and 'Orthodox' were equated. My answer to this is: the term 'Serb' is a moving target, i.e. its meaning to Montenegrin people changed through history. Montenegrins refered in the 'dark ages' to muslims as 'Turks' and to orthodox as 'Serbs'. In my opinion, this is due to the organisation of Otoman Empire in 'milets', each milet refering to a separate religion. Milet means 'narod', therefore narod = Orthodox = Serb. Montenegrins considered themselves as a part of 'Orthodox milet', but, they called their particular group Montenegrins. In short, my answer would be, roughly from the time Otoman Empire conquered present-day Montenegro onwards. Momisan 01:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"As far as I understood, the theory holds that Montenegrins have falsly been Serbs just because of their religion, is that true?" Some people, like Radoslav Rotkovic, might come close to your interpretation. However, it all comes down to what was the definition of the term 'Serb' at a particular point in time. I would think that in the 18th century and earlier, 'Serb' = 'Orthodox', for the reasons I pointed out above. Montenegrins considered themselves as a distinctive group belonging to wider Serbian=Orthodox people. As they were uneducated people, whatever the Church promoted was a gospel. 19th century is a different story as it is a century of nationalist ideology in general. As you pointed out, the Ilirian/Great Serbian ideology of national liberation was developed and there is an obvious inconsistency in the way the term 'Serb' was used as it was now sometimes used for all three major religions ("lepo, lipo, ljepo i lijepo, latice su istoga cvijeta" - said Njegos. If you like, the term for Montenegrins meant similar thing to the present term Yugoslav. The next crucial moment in history is, of course, the rude awakening of 1918. The Montenegrins were not shown respect, the worst thing you can do if you understand their ethics. Furthermore, they finally had a chance to get to know the people from Serbia from direct contact and they realised they are actually diferent. As someone , was it Lincoln, said "You cannot fool all people all the time"... To sumarise, regardless of which angle you look from, Montenegrins always considered themselves a distinctive and separate group of people. They also understood they belonged to a larger family of the people language of which they could understand. You can call that larger group 'Serbs' , 'Slavs', 'Yugoslavs', take your pick. In political terms, they wanted unification with their fellow Slavs, but, only on equal terms and with mutual respect, as their ethical code commands. After a century of trying, they realised it is never going to work. Now, how about turning it all upside down, can you give me a brief run-down of the evolution of the term "Serb', as seen from the point of view of Serbia, through history?Momisan 13:31, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I forgot to emphasise, in 19th century the term Serb for Montenegrins meant similar thing to the present term Yugoslav not to the present term Serb, which excludes non-Orthodox people.Momisan 01:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

My question was: What was the meaning/definition of the term Serb as seen from say Dositej, Garasanin, Vuk, Cvijic, Ljotic, Seselj, Karadzic etc. Did it change? Momisan 01:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes I meant Radovan :-). As you know, Hitler was an Austrian, doesn't change the fact that Germans followed him. Only Radovan was born and bred Serb from Montenegro, not a Montenegrin. Thank God there is a distinction there. Anyway, you can't ignore the dark side of history as irrelevant. Cvijic is someone I would like to study more, but, his works seem to be rare as hens teeth on the net :-( Momisan 13:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Claims of distinct languages

There have been many claims on Wikipedia that some dialect of a language is a separate language, as part of nationalist aspirations of residents of some region, who want to be a separate country. The United States were indeed separate and equal states before forming the United States. When the Confederate States sought to dissolve their union with the United States in 1861, very curiously, there was no claim put forward at all that they spoke a separate language, even though anyone could instantly recognize their speech as different from that of a northerner, in accent, in grammar, and in vocabulary. The Southern speaker uses a familiar plural pronoun, "Y'all," short for "You all," as in "Do y'all need some help? And "help" would have been pronounced like "hep." Instead of "This farm" they might say "This here farm," pronounced like "Thishear famm." This is likely due to African influences in the Southern speech. Someone from Boston, on the other hand, like President Kennedy, would pronounce "I parked the car on the Harvard yard and went to Africa" as "I pahked the cah on the Hahvahd yahd and went to Afriker." Because of these differences in American speech, it is not a compelling argument for separate languages in other countries when someone says that in a few sentences one can tell whether someone is from one or another region of former Yugoslavia. In a few sentences, one can tell if someone grew up in Chicago or in a suburb of the city, or if they grew up in Brooklyn versus Queens or Manhattan in New York. Regards. Edison 15:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No, but lowland Scotland claims to have a non-English dialect separate language: Scots language.--Tekleni 15:21, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

ZAVNOs in Serbia and Slovenia

Hi there, history-man, could you fill up the gaps here:

• Slovenia -
• Croatia - ZAVNOH
• BiH - ZAVNOBIH
• Serbia -
• Montenegro - ZAVNOCG
• Macedonia - ASNOM

I just can't seem to find the last two and that makes me nervous... --Dijxtra 19:37, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I found "Antifašistička skupština narodnog oslobođenja Srbije"... and for Slovenia, I guess you wouldn't know. --Dijxtra 20:17, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Jesi siguran za ASNOS? Jerbo, google ne zna nista o tome... --Dijxtra 15:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Aha, bez A je. Dakle, samo SNOS. Oodlicno. --Dijxtra 15:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ha, usporedi sam: [2], [3]. --Dijxtra 09:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Heya Pt2.

Thanks for the warm welcome man Zlatko 20:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Assume Good Faith

A fundamental principle of Wikipedia is to assume good faith and you have not done so. Secondly, there should be no links to disambiguation pages as per WP:D. Bosnia and Bosnian are all disambiguation pages and should not be linked to. In my edits, I changed

1. Bosnia to Bosnia (region) [4] which is the right choice given the date of the subject in question.
2. Bosnian to Bosniak [5] since the Bosnians article talks about the current citizens of Bosnia and Hertzogovina, which includes both ethnic Bosnians (Bosniaks), Serbians and Croations. Since the sentence also includes a link to Serbian, to distinguish, the link should be Bosniak as done. I will be reverting your change, so there are no links to disambiguation pages as per policy. Regards, -- Jeff3000 19:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You should also read WP:DPL. Regards, -- Jeff3000 19:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Find a better way to word the sentence to mark the subtleties, but don't link to disambiguation pages. -- Jeff3000 19:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Also from the Bosniaks page (which by the way is not disputed) it states:

"The term Bosnian is somewhat imprecise in this context, as it is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnic origin (i.e. not only Bosniaks, but also Serbs, Croats or any other group in the country)."

and

"The earliest (genetic) roots of the Bosniak people can be traced back to the ancient populations that expanded into the Balkans following the Last Glacial Maximum 21 thousand years ago."

-- Jeff3000 19:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, after re-reading the Bosnians and Bosniaks pages, I don't believe that there is an inherent POV being implied, and think that the links are the correct ones for someone with no understanding to understand the situation in the best possible way. If you feel strongly, go and change the links, but just don't link to dab pages. -- Jeff3000 14:09, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Because Bosnians article refers the citizens of the current country. -- Jeff3000 23:31, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your accusations of POV and I personally feel there is no POV implied, but if you feel strongly, go ahead and change the links. At the same time, please stop bothering me; it might sound bad, but I've spend enough time reading the articles, and to my mind there is nothing wrong, and more importantly it's not that important to me. Regards, -- Jeff3000

Once again, I believe the Bosniaks article is better than the Bosnians article which includes Croat and Serbian ethnic groups. This is my final comment on the issue, check my contributions to find the links. -- Jeff3000 00:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Farewell Milo

I don't have any wested interests in Milo,however, I think it is a loss if he leaves politics at this stage. What is your opinion? Momisan 02:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, was not online a while. Indeed it was for work that I came to England in 1982, I had qualifications in English, movement was free and easy for us in Yugoslavia and I landed a job at a London based advertising company. I now live 40 miles outside of the nasty city! Of course I still have family in Dubrovnik, Trebinje, Kotor and most of the rest in Zagreb, with one or two in Rijeka. You are free to ask, I keep no secrets! :) Ragusan 11:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh good Heavens no that was not the reason Pax, I was gone well before the problems happened, I served in the army first in Backa Topola and finally in Strumica (Macedonia), I had very good friends from all over the former Yugoslavia including two room-mates both muslim, we all kept in touch for years after our service and I am still in contact with 90% of them now - to us, the war is as though it never happened. A lad called Halid served with me in Strumica, he is from Srebrenica; whilst the massacres happened, he sat at home, nobody forced him out, nobody bothered him - he was not selected by the Bosnian Serbs for expulsion/death as he had no links to the Muslim rebels; equally my nephews today are the same. Trebinje had little to worry about during the conflict but one of them was living in Tuzla at the time, he (is Croat by declaration) too had no fears and all from having kept out of politics. I am glad to say that my whole family is largely outside of the problems, one reason I have never called myself a Croat even though in the eyes of most people, that is what I should be. Ragusan 22:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

All hail Romania!

"All hail Romania! (if you're still there!!!) --HolyRomanEmperor 13:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)"

Imaš nekih saznanja gdje se čovjek nalazi? Čovjek ko da je u zemlju propo... Luka Jačov 19:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy = Pax

Gift

Nerazumin sto si ti meni narparvio na user page. Vec je tako bilo prije. Nemam poja ocemu pricas. Moguce je da si to napravio prije ali ja sam mislio da mi je to napravio neki iz Zagreba Nikola.Jagoda 1 22:47, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Re:

Pa koliko ja znam Srbi, Hrvati i Slovenci su bili priznati kao narodi pre komunizma, dok su za vreme komunizma priznata još tri - Makedonci, Crnogorci i Muslimani. Ja se dobro sećam da sam u osnovnoj školi učio da Jugoslavija ima 6 naroda (kojima je Jugoslavija matična država), dok su narodnosti (koje su imale matičnu državu izvan Jugoslavije) bili Albanci, Mađari, Slovaci, itd, itd. Dakle, u bivšoj SFRJ su se koristila upravo ta dva pojma - narodi i narodnosti, i potpuno je jasno šta je koji označavao, pa prema tome nema svrhe da sad "izmišljamo" pojmove "nacija" i "etnička grupa" koji se tada nisu koristili. PANONIAN (talk) 01:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Znas nesto od ovome?

Nikola Tesla... He refused to receive the Nobel prize which he had to share with T.A. Edison. In 1942 the American Supreme Court decided that Tesla invented the Radio, not Marconi. Vidim da i jos danas kazu da je Marconi izumio radio, jadan je "nas" narod kad i ono sto su izumili nije njima dano. Dalo se Taljanu i jos dan danas Taljani slavu tog Marconija. Kakva je to pravda, kako niste to javili na site Tesla i Marconi. This is important a ne odakle je on... origin itd.

PS Ajede reci kako ti znas pricat i pisat Makedonski???...reci razumis malo, malo ...jedva i ja njih razumin mozda 20-40%. Ajde sto sviras da znas taj jezik hahaha a Slovenski jos gore...da si rekao Polish 1 ali in njih je tesko razumit 30%

Jedan Zidov is Gruzije se meni javio na Wiki pa to me iznenadilo..razumi i pise perfektno Srbo-Croat...covjek je legenda..a ja sam uvijek mislio da nas jezik je mali jezik i nije nesto special. God Speed

Ti jesi HRE zar ne Jagoda 1 03:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC) javi se na moj talk..

Unspecified source for Image:CroatianSerbs.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:CroatianSerbs.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be a justification explaining why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the file also doesn't have a copyright tag, then one should be added. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then the {{GFDL-self}} tag can be used to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media meets the criteria at Wikipedia:Fair use, use a tag such as {{fairusein|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Wikipedia:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Nilfanion (talk) 08:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

All hail Romania!

"All hail Romania! (if you're still there!!!) --HolyRomanEmperor 13:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)"

Imaš nekih saznanja gdje se čovjek nalazi? Čovjek ko da je u zemlju propo... Luka Jačov 19:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Holy = Pax

Pojmovi

Pa ne sumnjam da ćeš u različitoj literaturi pronaći pojmove "etničke grupe" i "nacije", ali u SFRJ su se zvanično koristili pojmovi "narodi" i "narodnosti". To su bile službene definicije statusa neke grupe. PANONIAN (talk) 01:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Barnstar

Pah, that reply was the worst kind of waffle. And it was slightly incivil. But if you're awarding me the barnstar for deleting 12,000 useless pages, then that's OK ;) – Gurch 12:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

On Kubura discussion

What's this Paxy on Kubbies discussion????? You say Croatia wanted to rule Serbia WHAT A JOKE..kad je to bilo??? kad smo bili zajedno u Persia mozda a ne u modern history... Yugoslavia ended because Serbia wanted to rule all of Yugoslavia. Slovenia and Croats had no say so they wanted out. Nobody would stand for Greater Serbia under the banner Yugoslavia in the 90s and that Milosevic rule. Serbia didn't have to attack Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia...Serbs just needed to give equal rights to all the people of Yugoslavia. Serbia is to blame..i don't see how anybody else is. Why was Macedonia able to gain independence without problems? Croatia and Bosnia was more of a loss to Serbs that's why they attacked. Croatia has NEVER wanted to rule Serbia bet that mate...but has Serbia wanted to rule Croatia??? ...YES..and you know it

Wake up..sram te bilo. Pa zna i svaka budala zasto je bio rat. Kako su Rusi pustili Ukraine i nisu se tukli???. Kako su Grci pustili Makedoniju i nisu se tukli???

Jagoda 1 03:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

PS Zasto nisi uzeo ime "Holy Roman Emperor 2006" svak te zna kao HRE..steta di si prominio ime. Ali nije vazno Paxy moj mili.

Slusas onog Srpskog pjevaca Keba? Pravi si Keba hahaha Jagoda 1 06:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hej

I hope that your comment was sarcasm. Look at the messages above (on my discussion page) where you wrote: "Thank you for inviting me". I asked you to join. (The only thing that is missing is the coat of arms in your invitation). Thanks, Vseferović 21:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hej Slaveni

Ajde zapevaj... "Hej Slaveni jos ste zivi......dok za narod srce bije .....zivi zivi duh slavenski"

Who wrote the song?

Jagoda 1 06:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

You are formally re-invited to the WikiProject BiH

File:Bosnia and Herzegovina Coats of Arms.svg

I, Vernes, invite you, HRE, to join my project. Knowing your great reputation, I believe you will be able to contribute a lot to the project. Please reply. Thank you, (This is sarcasm from me, and I believe it is sarcasm fro yourself, too).

P.S. do not forget to sign, I thought the message was left by Thunderman. Vseferović 21:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Mapa

Da, to je bila prvobitna granica sa Albanijom koja je važila do 1926 kada je uspostavljena sadašnja. Znam takođe da su i delovi Bosne proglasili ujedinjenje sa Srbijom, ali mapu sam bazirao na mapi iz knjige "Nestajanje Srba" (Tomislav Bogavac, Niš, 1994). Međutim nisam siguran da li je vlada Srbije prihvatila odluku o ujedinjenju delova Bosne sa Srbijom. Znam da je prihvatila odluke Crne Gore i Vojvodine, ali (sad pričam po sećanju), mislim da sam čitao da nije prihvatila odluke naroda iz Bosne da se političari u Zagrebu ne bi zbog toga bunili i da tako i Zagreb lakše pristane na ujedinjenje sa Srbijom. PANONIAN (talk) 23:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Kosovo

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above.

For edit warring, personal attacks, and other disruption, PerfectStorm/C-c-c-c is banned from editing Wikipedia for one year. For edit warring and incivility, Bormalagurski is banned from editing Wikipedia from one year. For edit warring and disruptive use of sockpuppets, Dardanv under any username or IP, is banned from editing Wikipedia for one month.

Hipi Zhdripi is limited to his one named account, Hipi Zhdripi. All edits by Hipi Zhdripi under another account or an IP address shall be treated as edits by a banned user.

Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso are banned for one year from editing articles related to Kosovo. Relation to Kosovo is to be interpreted broadly so as to prevent gaming. Either may be banned from any related non-article page for disruptive editing. All articles related to Kosovo are put on Article probation to allow more swift dealing with disruption. Editors of Kosovo and related articles who engage in edit warring, incivility, original research, or other disruptive editing, may be banned for an appropriate period of time, in extreme cases indefinitely.

ChrisO is warned not to engage in edit warring, and to engage in only calm discussion and dispute resolution when in conflict. He is instructed not to use the administrative rollback tool in content disputes and encouraged to develop the ability and practice of assisting users who are having trouble understanding and applying Wikipedia policies in doing so. .

Dardanv, Ferick, Laughing Man, Osli73, and Tonycdp are placed on Probation for one year. Each may be banned from any page or set of pages for disruptive edits, such as edit warring or incivility.

Ilir pz, Hipi Zhdripi, Vezaso, Dardanv, Ferick, Laughing Man, Osli73, and Tonycdp are placed on standard revert parole for one year. Each is limited to one revert per article per week, excepting obvious vandalism. Further, each is required to discuss any content reversions on the article's talk page.

For the Arbitration Committee. Arbitration Committee Clerk, 03:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I did because it was the old const. of montenegro... i thought it needs to be the current one--Albanian since Stone Age 22:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Bokelji

E izvini, ali trenutno stvarno nemam vremena da sređujem taj članak. Imam već dosta stvari koje sam planirao da uradim, a ne mogu da uradim ni njih, jer umesto toga radim ono što nisam planirao, već što mi drugi ubace na watch listu. :) Pokušaj sam da središ taj članak, jer ja stvarno sada nemam vremena. PANONIAN (talk) 01:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Music

I hate indie rock. User:Mig11's favorite bands were all indie or something like that. See My favorite genres of music. You will than understand why. --Aeternus 09:01, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel so honoured, that you guys are so "interested" and worried about my music-taste. --Mig11 10:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but a translation made by each of us will not be proved as neutral. --Aeternus 18:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Noah30

Hello. My intention was not to be unfriendly, it is sad if you have interpreted it that way. I wanted to write to you but did not have time. Wish you a wonderful Sunday.--Noah30 14:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

OK! I am sorry! It said that Montenegro is part of Yugoslavia, that's why I got confused!--Albanian since Stone Age 18:20, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Const.

Yes, I see that there should be new constitutions now. I can assure you that Kosovo is preparing its constitution that will define it as an independent republic, and this will be ready by March 2007. By the way, the constitutions of Serbia and Montenegro indeed seem to have some huge mistakes.--Albanian since Stone Age 19:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Claiming someone else's land...--Albanian since Stone Age 20:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that Kosovo will be independent and there is no need to mention it in the new Serbian constitution. Then, you will have to write a new constitution without Kosovo.--Albanian since Stone Age 20:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right about 1990 const., but I'll never forget that under this constitution, Serbia drove out of their home one million people that were supposed to be her citizens with equal rights. This is why Albanians are seeking independence for Kosovo, because they do not trust any Serbian law… By the way, laws in Serbia are fair de jure, but not de facto… I don’t understand how this can happen! Or, those guys ruling Serbia are always doing the contrary of what law says.--Albanian since Stone Age 21:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Sorry

Hey, no problem! I don't mind at all. Cheers, —Khoikhoi 03:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: your question

you asked me if I am from both Canada and Croatia. I could not find a tag that says Canadian Citizen, but yes born in Croatia and now a citizen of Canada, currently residing in Vietnam. Do yo mind if I ask how did you manage to find my user name and why you decided to write to me? Is it in any official capacity? Did I inadvertantly do something wrong? Anyway while I am askig questions, tell me how would you refer to medieval currency used in Dubrovnik? And how would you wite about it if expresing a sum of money? Obviously the wiki manual of style US$ for example might be a bit unusual for non existant currencies? What do yo think? P jeric 04:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Answer again

Hi! I know it. But ask "grandmaster" PANNONIAN about the question. HunTheGoaT 21:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

He have written the montenegrin langue in the babel-bar too. HunTheGoaT 21:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey listen my friend! I don't want to imagine nothing. What are you talking about? I am not intrested in questions like the Montenegrin language is different than Serbian. I think not even Croatian is different. A Serb in Kosovo. Those Serbs will come here and they will cause nothing just problems. Just imagine those who you had been talikng about previously are in a better situation than the minorities in China or people in North Korea. It is not a silly thing? Serbs have already attacked me in the street because they had heard me speaking Hungarian. If I were not lucky, they may kill me. So please don't talk about the harmony. The only reason of this "harmony" that in Kosovo Albanians and Serbians attack each other, in Croatia Serbians and Croatians do the same. The only reason of this "peace" is that Hungarians don't attack Serbians. We are the majority in Senta but we do not attack the Serb minority. The minority is aggressive with us. So ask this pro-Tito, pro-partisan PANNONIAN about his statements. He is intrested in problems in Montenegro because I am realy not. I want to settle down in Hungary. I want to escape from this fake-international-multiethnical and ideal "harmony". I don't want to be a soldier who fights for Kosovo. I hate Serbia, I hate Vojvodina, I hate Senta. I prefer Vajdaság and Zenta. But what I realy love is Hungary and EU. So please don't tell me about these silly barbarian South Slavic conflicts. I think that the Croatians, Montenegrins and Serbs are the same. Most of them loves that they can hate each other. That is a shame, because they are brothers. And the last thing: Kosovo is an Albanian territory not Serbian. Sorry for the phrase but I realy shit on it. Enough answer? It was just a joke to write that Montenegrin as a different language. Good night my friend. If you have any more questions about my statements, please ask. HunTheGoaT 22:43, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Serbia is not my country. I don't hate Zenta just the name Senta. 27% have voted fo the SRS and 12% have voted for DSS. The first is an extremist the second is a moderate natinoalist party. So 39% of voters have nationalistic zeals. This is nearly the half of Serbian voters. And the opposing 61% including not only Serbs. So I have a good reason to fear. I am a Hungarian in my language gyűlölni means to hate, utálni means to dislike. I just dislike Serbia.HunTheGoaT 17:34, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Witch questions are that I did not answered? My country is Vojvodina, not Serbia. Vojvodina is the part of the Republic of Serbia but iu is not Serbia. Anyway I do not recognise Serbia as my homeland. I live here because I must.HunTheGoaT 18:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL, mister Hun, I do not believe that it is what they teach you in that Grammar School. For your information, Vojvodina was known under name Serbia (Rascia) from the 15th century onward (check this map from 1590 where Vojvodina is mentioned exactly under this name: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Rascia_Banat01.jpg and there are more similar maps of course). Also, do not forget that between 1849 and 1860 Vojvodina was known as "Voivodship of Serbia". It is well known who and why invented the "story" that Vojvodina was not Serbia in the past, but that "story" is nothing else instead of wishful thinking. PANONIAN (talk) 02:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• 1. Vojvodina is the Autonomous Province of Serbia. But it is not Serbia itself. In Vojvodina what people usualy call Serbia is Central-Serbia.

See above. :) PANONIAN (talk) 02:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• 2. The 88% of Kosovo's population is Albanian. The Serbian government hasn't got power in Kosovo. Kosovo is going to become a totaly independent state and I think it will be merged into Albania.
• 3. I don't like the Serbian society itself. I don't like the lifestyle in Serbia(also in Vojvodina). This society has negative effects on all people. I feel the influences on myself but my personality is fighting agains this influence.
• 4. The leader of the DSS, the Serbian PM itself declare himself as a moderate nationalist. DSS is not a realy negative party but it divides the democratic parties. Their greatest political rival is not the SRS but the DS.
• I forgot the SPS's 8%. 27+8 is 35. Anyway extreme nationalism is very popular in Serbia. If we add the DSS's 12% the total nationalist(including the moderates) voters are around 47%. That's a big problem.

HunTheGoaT 19:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi! You didn't say any wrong thing. I am just very tired, you konw. I am still a pupil and I haven't got enough freetime. I'll answer you tomorrow. Sorry.

HunTheGoaT 19:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC) Hi! Sorry but I can't discuss with you. Because PANNONIAN is one of the people who I had written about in your oppinion role. And he always boykots my edits on Wikipedia. He is always says that Vojvodina is just the land of Serbs. Vojvidina is the country of people who lives there and not belongs to one nation. Thx! P.S.:And Belgrade was a Hungarian territory in the past. But does it counts now?HunTheGoaT 17:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No mister Hun, I never said that Vojvodina belong only to Serbs. It belong to all its citizens as it is written in its statute. I simply do not want to tolerate people who all the time want to push their POV that only Serbs are evil and that Serbs are always guilty. And by the way, mister Hun, can you talk about people about anything else instead about me? PANONIAN (talk) 03:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

And two more things: 1. Vojvodina is not a country, and 2. Budapest was a Ottoman territory in the past. Does it counts now, mister Hun? :))) PANONIAN (talk) 03:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Wikiprojects

Because, I suspect, most of them are started up by napaljeni klinci with no appetite to do any actual work. They are joined by a multitude of people who seem to join and never look at the project page again, so what's the point? I only stayed on Wikiproject Serbia, because that one has a prospective future, especially if it becomes pan-Serb (Srbija, RS, CG) project. --estavisti 21:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Belgrade

You may be interested in Belgrade's FA nom. Please do not vote in favour simply because it is an article about Belgrade, but rather on the article's merits. If you feel that it is not good enough, please vote against. --estavisti 05:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Thought you might want to know...

User:Thunderman has been blocked. (This is regarding the issues of the BiH Wikiproject). He was a sockpuppet of User:Hahahahibo. Thanks Vseferović 01:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Boka i Kosovo

Pa ja u zadnje vreme baš i nemam vremena da radim i na srpskoj Vikipediji, a ništa te ne sprečava da sam popraviš tamo šta misliš da treba. Što se tiče te mape Kosova iz 1999, ona uopšte nije tačna. Ja sam već nacrtao tačnu etničku kartu Kosova sa popisa 1991: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kosovo_ethnic.png a verodostojnost moje karte se lako može proveriti na ovom sajtu gde imaš podatke sa popisa 1991 za sve opštine u Srbiji: http://www.anem.org.yu/mape/index-en.htm PANONIAN (talk) 15:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Dakle samo za primer, u opštini Istok je po popisu iz 1991 bilo samo 12.70% Srba i Crnogoraca, dok ona mapa koja navodno prikazuje stanje iz 1999 pokazuje da su Srbi bili većina u toj opštini, da ne pominjemo i da pokazuje da su Srbi bili većina u Prizrenu, što je smešno. PANONIAN (talk) 15:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Mapa u članku Serbs of Croatia je tačna, ali ova koja pokazuje Kosovo nije. Evo ti tačna etnička mapa Kosova koja pokazuje etničku većinu po naseljima: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Serbia12.jpg Inače, ne znam poreklo i pravni status te mape, pa je ne možemo koristiti na Vikipediji, ubacio sam je samo da je vidiš. PANONIAN (talk) 01:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey (thanks)

Kind of... What do you think my chances are? I would say I am qualified since I try to put in neutral points of view and know the English language really well, but tell me the process. Are you an admin? Vseferović 00:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I never had any trouble with Croatians, but I did have tons of trouble with some users (huge conflict(s)). That would cause much trouble. But we have cooled it down in the past few months. Vseferović 00:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC) --PaxEquilibrium 00:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll think about it. Thanks for the suggestion. My main issue is that, while I was still a young user, many of my edits are under my IP address. I may need some time to get more edits, looking at the fact that I was/have been focusing on the Bonsian Wikipedia, returning just recently. Vseferović 03:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Site

E znam da postoji sajt sa tekstom DAI (čitao sam ga ranije), ali se ne sećam adrese. Probaj preko google search da ga nađeš. PANONIAN (talk) 15:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry pal...

Pa Paxe, nisam mislo da ispane kao uvreda. Samo sam htio da pojasnim moj pogled da nisam fundamentalista i da mogu sa svim suradjivati. Ja licno ne znam kako se karakterizujes, mozda jugoslaven, hrvat,... jos jednom izvini ako je ispalo kao uvreda. Hvala, Vseferović 16:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo

Hello. Well, I considered Kosovo to a past conflict because the Kosovo war ended in 1999 after the NATO airstrikes forced the Kumanovo agreement and the end of military belligerence. However, I don't consider it to be past conflict. It is conceivable that war could start again but the situation in Kosovo has dramatically changed for the betterment of the vast majority of Kosovars in the past 7 years.

Anyway, as towards your question, I think independence is the only real option, if only from a practical sense. There are 2 million Kosovar Albanians and they will not accept anything less than independence, compared to a couple thousand Kosovar Serbs that sadly will probably leave Kosovo by en large if they haven't already. I think the option that will cause the most conflict is if Kosovo gets greater autonomy with the possibility future independence. Anti-UN feelings will increase significantly, as they have over the past few years after they were welcomed as liberators in 1999. Widescale rioting could occur and the situation will most likely become violent (against both Serbs, Roma and United Nations personnel). If Kosovo does indeed get full independence (as its smaller cousin to the west did recently), their should be financial concessions made to Serbia in the form of help with the "ethnically" Serbian IDP's. The agreement will probably also stipulate the Kosovo can never join any form of Pan-Albanian union aka Pan-Albania. If all this happens, it will probably encourage separatists in Republika Srpska to try and join Serbia, so this will have to addressed in any agreeement in order to consolidate BiH. What are your thoughts on the past conflict / current discussions?--Thomas.macmillan 16:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• I will respond in full later, but just to clarify, when I referred to Kosovo's smaller cousin to the west I was speaking of Montenegro.--Thomas.macmillan 20:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Apologies for not responding. I simply haven't had enough time to sit down and write a thorough enough response and continue with my wiki duties. I am a university student and my break is forthcoming, so I will respond after a week or so.--Thomas.macmillan 01:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

DAI

"Nema nigdje, za sada cu ostaviti da su stanovnici Rashke, Bosne, Travunije, Zahumlja i Paganije bili Hrvati."

Pa znaš kako, mislim da sam negde čitao da je Porfirogenit prvo napisao da su Srbi naselili sve te zemlje, a onda je to isto napisao za Hrvate, odnosno odeljak njegovog rada koji se odnosi na Srbe je u velikoj meri identičan odeljku koji se odnosi na Hrvate. Dokaz više da smo svi jedan narod. :))) PANONIAN (talk) 02:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Prvi put cujem...ali javi meni ako saznas vise...volim historiju. Jagoda 1 21:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Hey

Odgovorio sam ti na mojem talk-pageu. Nisam vise opce aktivan na Wikipediji jer nemam net doma, a ni vremena. Jakiša Tomić 17:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Afrika paprika

I have no intrest in unblocking this user due to relentless disruption and other things, but you are welcome to ask another admin or bring up a post about it on AN/I. Thanks for asking me about it, though. Hope you understand. // Pilotguy (Cleared to land) 21:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No intrests right now on that, but keep me posted on how it goes. // Pilotguy (Cleared to land)

Klot

Imao sam prepirku sa Panonianom o asimilaciji, i onda sam na brzinu sastavio skicu zašto je teško postati (pravi) Srbin (Zašto je asimilacioni potencijal Srba nizak?).

• 1. Orthodoxism- treba li da objašnjavam?
• 2. Cyrillic alphabet- pogledaj novi ustav o pismu
• 3. Celebration- postoji podatak da je bivša SRJ u vrhu neke liste sa blizu najviše slavljeničkih (neradnih) dana. Koliko se samo slavilo 29.Novembar posle raspada bivše SFRJ? A podatke o efektivnom radu posle tih terevenki ne možeš naći ni pod tačkom razno.
• 4. Gun- to je stariji brat onog "jebeš Bosanca bez ćakije" inače karakteristično za još neke balkanske narode.
• 5. Xenophobia- nivo nepoverenja i sumnjičavosti prema strancima i manjinama (raznih vrsta) je vrlo visok - do bola. Kako bi ti okarakterisao izjavu bivšeg ministra zdravlja Obrena Joksimovića datu još dok je DSS participirala u Đinđićevoj vladi da "jedan Mađar ne može biti direktor zdravstvene ustanove". Koji bi tu sveopšti potres bio kad bi na primer Margit Savović (primer šanta jer nije domorotka ali sad ne mogu da se setim neke druge opštepoznate osobe da je član manjine (čak i jezičke) a i da je upletena koliko-toliko u politiku) postavili za ministricu (sic!) odbrane. Pre nekoliko godina u Finskoj je postavljena žena za ministra odbrane i to još iz redova Švedske manjine. Koje sve uvrede nije pretrpela Ivana Dulić-Marković od srpske štampe samo zato što ... I nikom ništa.

I pošto je to bio frket prostim izvrćanjem se dobije klot tj. karakteristike Srpstva.

Ako smatraš da bi trebali dopuniti još s nečim slobodno dopuni, nije pet sveta krava samo me je asocirao na f.p. of W. Bendeguz 22:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Nije baš ravno sve do Bosne, jer pravi Srbin ni poraz ne priznaje. Pogledaj samo od boja na Kosovu pa do današnjih dana svi porazi su pretvarani u pobede kroz deseterce. Tu ne postoji mea culpa, jer to je znak slabosti. Zato je potreban jedan Bošnjak, da potpiše haške otpremnice i nizašta drugo. A u "nekad bilo danas više nema" tip odgovora (po želji overen sa još prco mater ako lažem) ne verujem, jer vuk dlaku menja, ali ćud nikad. Bendeguz 22:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Adoption

Congratulations!

Congratulations on your recent adoption, PaxEquilibrium, and welcome to Wikipedia! I saw that you have expressed an interest in being adopted by an experienced editor. Being an experienced editor myself, I accepted your request. Whether you want to learn about wiki markup, find something to do, or just talk to somebody, I'm the person to see about it - just leave a message on my Rat235478683. Remember, I am willing to help you and make your time here more enjoyable. Feel free to ask me any questions you might have, and remember to "be BOLD!"- I'm here to help you; no question is a stupid one. In the mean time, here are some pages that you might find helpful, in case you haven't already gotten the offical welcoming:

• What adoption is all about and how it will affect you.
• The five pillars of Wikipedia
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome and congratulations! 

Istria

Sorry, I failed to understand your statement :( --TheFEARgod (Ч) 23:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Baranja

Pa već smo o Baranji pričali. Ona je samo privremeno bila pod upravom narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta za Vojvodinu dok se ne utvrde granice između republika. PANONIAN (talk) 23:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey

I'm doing fine, thanks for asking. Yes I live in Croatia now and studying Croatian. How are you doing? Everything okey? I read the postings in your poll it is very interesting, you probably know me by now and that I cant restrain myself to get involved in this kind of stuff. Thanks for the invite, I will take part of this the next time I find time for wikipedia, sadly not today. Haha I dident get insultet. Croatia is great, although I think Sweden is the best. But I cant compare Sweden and the Balkans, since I love both. Btw where did you find the whole list of Serbian spiritual sites in Kosovo? Take care - Litany 19:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Tribe/clan terminology

Hi, I see some substantial editing in the article 'Serb clans'/'Serb clans of Montenegro. And because most of them were done by you, I write my comment here. Since I see that there are some problems editing this article I would suggest the following:

1.1. there needs to be drawn an agreement on the terminology. I was suggesting using native terms (my arguments are explained in the discussion page next to the article). I would not call it 'serbianization' since such a practice exists in English language where it is better using native terms to avoid misunderstanding (for instance - Yakuza, instead of Japanese mafia and mafia itself).

1.2. I can understand the wish of using terms 'tribe' and 'clan' and 'brotherhood' (again see my objections to all those in the discussion page). But in case these English terms are used, their usage should be somehow in consistance with the traditional English usage of these terms (please see the relevant Wikipedia articles for that). In short, tribe is an assumed collection of somehow related people outside state system. Tribe refers more to political organisation than to kinship. Clan is a group of people who believe to be descendants of a common ancestor (sometimes mythical and not always human) usually the whole line of the ancestors cannot be reproduced. A lineage is a group of people who believe to be descendants of a specific person in history and usually can trace the whole line down from that particular person. Both, clan and lineage refer more to kinship than to politics. Now, you will notice that in this context 'pleme' corresponds better to 'tribe' and 'bratstvo' - to either 'clan' or 'lineage'. Certainly 'clan' cannot be used to translate 'pleme' since members of one 'pleme' can be descendents of totally unrelated persons who arrived and settled down in a territory of a pleme on different times and from different areas. 'Brotherhood' on the contrary is usually a religious or otherwise in English means a fictive kinship and therefore does not fit in Montenegrin case.

2. In order to avoid nationalistic outbursts (of the kind - 'they don't know what they really are' or 'historically they were not Montenegrins' etc) I would suggest re-orienting this article into a territorially-bound. That would mean - this article should be about the plemena/bratstva or tribes/clans on the territory of the current Montenegro. In this way we could do away with many problems and improve clarity of the article. By the way - that would mean that also analogous Albanian social institutions should be mentioned. That might also mean that the reference to plemena and bratstva who once were a historic reality in other territories but who have no substantial meaning in current Montenegro, can be safely excluded from the article. Perhaps there is a necessity to divide the article into one which would be more history oriented and would talk about all the 'ancestral clans' and one which would deal with the territory of current Montenegro. With regards --Bezvardis 22:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Bormalagurski

Why do you keep deleting Boris' userpage? This is only done for users that have been blocked indefinately and will never edit Wikipedia again. Boris has the right to come back in a year, and no matter how long that seems to you, it still doesn't give you the right to remove material from HIS page. An infobox about the block is now added on top, and the page should be left untouched, just like any user that hasn't been blocked indefinately. --Svetislav Jovanović 05:48, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you... How dare you remove Boris' name from the WikiProject Serbia list of Participants? He CREATED the project, and you just remove his name! You know, he was one of the only ones that wanted to help during your problem with the hoax, and I know that he felt really bad about what happened, but now you're behaiving like such a traitor and pain in the ass. Now go report me for a personal attack, but I don't care... --Svetislav Jovanović 03:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello again.

Hey Pax. If you're inviting me to chime in on your poll, I'd love to, but it'll take me a few days to collect my thoughts - kind of busy at the moment. As for where I live, I'm currently in Pristina, and I've been here since late June, but I'm Irish by birth. Kosovo is the first Balkan country (province, whatever,) I've spent any real time in, but I hope to get a chance to see some of Serbia next year. Maybe after the snow melts, I'm told Belgrade is really nice in summer. Davu.leon 16:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of us here, weirdly. One of the major guys in the electricity business here is Irish. (No relation to me. Which is good since judging by the power cuts he isn't doing a really good job. ;) Davu.leon 09:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Edits

I don't like to edit articles as it might start an edit war. I don't want to get involved in that. I much prefer to discuss on discussion page to see and learn more about what people really think. From what i see here on Wiki ...some views/theories are so much more different to what you read in books. Very interesting. I have learnt a fair bit just by talking to people in particular User: Panonian. In my view books are POV of the author and where he/she is from, not always truth. I could write a book on anything and any view, doesn't make it truth, hence when someone lists sources as back up to comments here on Wiki I sometimes laugh.

You have 8,000 edits......that's heaps. I will need a lifetime to get to that.

Jagoda 1 21:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

9,000 I TO SVE STO IMA VEZE SA BALKANU I BALKANCIMA HAHA. DOBRO, ALI JOS PISE NA TVOJ USER PAGE DA GOVORIS MAKEDONSKI. OK RAZUMIS OVO "KAJ SE..UTRE SABALJ"

Jagoda 1 02:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Re:Constitution

Hello.

The constitution of the Republic of Macedonia is basically the same from 1991, but with slight modifications. Take a look at this (in Macedonian) or this (in English). Feel free to ask further. Cheers, Bomac 00:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Поздрав, Bomac 00:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I couldn't find a version of 1974. This is an article in mk.wiki about constitutions of R. Macedonia. Bomac 11:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting

By impressed what do you mean? I prefer the Latin script but I am neither attacking nor against the Cyrillic script. Bosnia did use the extinct script of Bosancica. I did not understand your "P.S." comment. Vseferović 03:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Clan terminology (2)

I don't understand what you mean by cited terminology. I don't see any substantial sources cited in the article aprat from what I have mentioned and PRECISELY because they are inconsistent in translation AND some authors do not translate (for instance M.A.Durham) these terms, I suggested to use the native terms (in consistence with Durham). Translation of pleme as clan is: a) only one of versions (minority by that) in English language literature b) a clear mistake on the part of these sources (which often tend to be written by non-English speaking authors as I understand and which tend to use clan and tribe interchangeably) c) misleading for people familiar with the terms

Secondly, people today live in many different parts of the world. Many clansmen for instance live in Australia or the US. This could be a matter for another as yet not performed historic research to establish these ties. However this should not be the basis for calling them 'Australian clans' (as they have their own) or something like that. At the same time there is a heated debate in Montenegro as you know on national identity and it cannot be solved in any manner. So some people will continue believing a part of people in Montenegro are Serbs, some - that they are Montenegrins, and some - that they are Slavonised Illirians etc. This article also cannot resolve this controversy and it would be better to stay away from the politics. Therefore I suggested to stick to the present political territory as I believe such a policy can free from unnecessary political struggle.--Bezvardis 09:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey...

I understand my comments about one year ago, but I am not saying I am against Cyrillic. I'll be honest I do not prefer it, but hey if you use it it's ok with me. What's happening with you today. I have a day off. Greetings, Vseferović 17:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, the reason Bosnians do not like Cyrillic is due to its affiliation to Serbia culture. As you know, the war was between Bosnia, Serbia, and Croatia so now we are all trying to further separate from one another. Bosnia is trying to change its culture as are Serbia and Croatia. Within the culture is language and everyone is attempting to change it as much as possible, in order to be different from the other. Bosnia, Croatia, and Serbia have issues that are not resolved. The easiest thing that should have occurred was the implementation of the "Yugoslav" people. Everyone should have been forced to be called Yugoslavian. If uprisings had been to come up, then it would have been subdued by the government and soon by our generation. Everyone would have called themselves Yugoslavian. There would have been a less likely chance for war. Thanks and greetings, Vseferović 18:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Ovo si dobro napisao PAMETNOJagoda 1 02:25, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Radovane, delijo

All Karadzici come from "Serbian" tribe Drobnjak. Just ask.Momisan 13:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Independent_State_of_Croatia#Population

Can you reference this section? It's not that I don't believe to the figures, it's just that it would be nice to have references. Thanks. --Dijxtra 16:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

???

Hey, I was wondering why did you want to be adopted. My only guess is that you did it just for the heck of it. Am I right? Pozdrav, Vseferović 22:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

ur contribs

If u ask me, they're ok, but at this moment I'm not (at least yet;) qualified to make that statement. I agree with u on most historical issues if that's of any significance. Cheers User:NeroN_BG

ANSWER

Ok,ne slazem se sa tobom ,vezano za Kotromanice .istoriska je cinjenica da su Kotromanici bili pravoslavci koji su priznavali papu kao vrhovnu vlast,a ne SPC.Kasnije su naslednici prihvatili islam,kralj Tvrtko I je poslao Kosacu u Kosovsku bitku,koji je komandovao trecinom srpske vojske,sto je veoma znacajno.Znam da su Srbija i Srbi trn u oku mnogima,pa ako ima neki problem obrati se srpskim administratorima.Promeni ako mislis da bi trebalo to vezano za Tvrtka.... User:bg007 U pravu si,proverio sam i izvinjavam se!tacno je da su u pocetku bili pravoslavci,a sta su onda bili ako nisu Srbi,pa cak i kad su promenili veru.po toj logici pravolavci danas u Bosni nisu Srbi,katolici nisu Hrvati,...Pozdrav! Pa naravno da Bugara nema u Bosni,to sva deca u evropskim osnovnim skolama znaju.BTW Bugari uopste nisu slovenskog porekla ,nego turskog.Samo su uzeli tradiciju,kulturu Slovena.Proveri!Pa dobra,sta su onda pravoslavci i katolici u Bosni?Izgleda da su svi bili Srbi pravoslavni,pa da su vremenom prelazili u katolicizam i u islam.Sta su Dalmatinci poreklom,razlikuju se od kontinentalnih Hrvata po svemu.Prezimena su im drugacija(gle cuda ista kao i u Srbiji,CG i Istocnoj Hercegovini,cak i fizicki drugacije izgledaju od severnjaka.Vatikan je poceo da sprovodi ideju ,da su pravoslavni samo Srbi,katolici samo Hrvati.Zasto?Zato sto su tada u Austro-Ugarskoj i Turskoj,po popisu ziveli Srbi-katolici,ali ne i Hrvati-pravoslavci.Naravno do pocetka proslog veka Muslimani su se izjasnjava ili kao Turci ili kao Srbi muslimanske veroispovesti. To bi moglo da se uzme za pretpostavku,zaista, dosli su iz Bugarske.Tamanili su ih svi od Nemanjica do Ugara.Kog su porekla uopste bili Bogumili?Cini mi se da su vrsena nega genetska ispitivanja Srba,Hrvata i Bosnjaka i da je nedvosmisleno utvrdjeno da je genetska struktura gotova identicna.Naravno to su pocetna ispitivanja, a napredak tehnologije ce nam sigurno dati tacne odgovore i resiti nedumice ,pa i istorijske zagonetke.Vreme pred nama ce nam sigurno dati odgovore.Pozdrav prijatelju!

Red Croatia Pamplet

Interesting bit of information. But I question whether it constitutes Greater Croatia - it looks more like an attempt at Greater Montenegro with land claims on Croatia, BiH, Serbia and Albania, with close regional ties to Croatia that would play the role of a benefactor and counterweight against Greater Serbia. Think along the lines of British and Russian support for Serbia. Also the closer ties it proposes is similar to the stabilisation pact of EU/NATO for the region (minus Serbia).

Also, do you have any credible sources for the claim that Tudjman wanted a Croatian Orthodox Church in Montenegro? - this sounds far fetched too me (certainly if there was to be one it would be in Croatia?). Sounds more like an attempt by disgruintled nationalist Serb elements in Montenegro to undermine the legitimacy of Montenegran independence by painting a conspircay theory of Croatian involvement - almost as good as the Vatican and fourth reich conspiracy theories. iruka 02:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC) (it's Marinko - changed alias from Croquoll to Iruka (dolphin in Japanese)

Hi Pax (HRE), how are you? I am still around, all though dont edit much anymore. In reference to the above Crvena Hrvatska pamphlet you have been posting around, i am quite familiar with it. It isnt a pamphlet from Brkovic as far as i know, rather a scare campaign by the pro-serb parties to scare off voters from voting for an independant Montenegro. The idea was to say if you believe in a Nezavisna Crna Gora, then it could be swallowed up by our evil northern neighbours - the Croats. Its all politics as far as i know. Anyway, whats new with you? Uvouvo 04:01, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha, it is a pity, and a laugh :) Anyway, your right, i have seen that map used. What i meant is that pamphlet was put together for political purposes. Uvouvo 22:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The above comment by user Uvouvo does make sense. In any case, if Montenegro wants to go it alone, it needs support from the EU and neighbours like Croatia to act as a counterweight against the influence of Serbia. Judging by comments made by Dodik in BiH and Tomislav Nikolic, the dream of a Greater Serbia still exists as a distraction to the social and economic reforms Serbia must undergo, so the fear of Serbia would be legitimate on the part of the Montenegrans.

As for Greater Croatia including parts of Serbia, this certainly is fantasy only entertained by a very small minority. It appears that Tudjman had no pretension and any form of Greater Croatia (before BiH declared independence) would have only restored the boundaries of the Banovina Hrvatska or just included Western Herzegovina. After that, Croat influence in BiH was merely for geo-political reasons, and once BiH had stabilised and was no longer see as a source of potential instability, the Racan government stopped the previous HDZ govt's policy of funding the Herceg-Bosnia entity. iruka 01:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your input!

Thank you for taking part in my RfA. The RfA was not successful, mostly because I did a pretty bad job of presenting myself. I'll run again sometime in the next few months, in the hopes that some will reconsider.

In the meantime, one of the projects I'm working on is A Wikimedia Administrator's Handbook. This is a wikibook how-to guide intended to help new administrators learn the ropes, as well as to simply "demystify" what adminship entails. If you are an administrator, please help out with writing it, particularly on the technical aspects of the tools. Both administrators and non-administrators are welcome to help link in and sort all of the various policies regarding the use of these tools on wikipedia in particular (as well as other projects: for example, I have almost no experience with how things work on wiktionary or wikinews). Users who are neither familiar with policy or the sysop tools could be of great help by asking questions about anything that's unclear. The goal is to get everything together in one place, with a narrative form designed to anticipate the reader's next question.

A second project, related but not entailed, is a book on wikimedia in general, with a history of how various policies evolved over time, interesting trivia (e.g., what the heck was "wikimoney" about?), and a history of how the wikimedia foundation itself came about and the larger issues that occurred during its history (such as the infamous "Spanish Fork").

Again, thanks for your input on the RfA, and thanks in advance for any help you might be able to provide for the handbook. --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 14:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The "other" project

Yup, that's really a book that should be written, and written by us (the wikimedians), before it gets written by some crusty academic looking to dismiss our efforts. Sure, we screw up sometimes, but when you look at what we've accomplished, only a fool would shake a stick at it.

I made an outline for the book a month or two ago here, but I've been too tied up with other projects since then to make a serious try at working on it and asking for contributors. With Jimbo going semi-emeritus now, I think we'd better start getting this stuff down (wiki style!) before the beginnings are forgotten, because sooner or later we're not going to have all that many of the "first generation" still here and interested in talking.

I'm not part of the first generation, and frankly I'm more than a bit daunted by the prospect of asking the first gen people to tell their story, but perhaps if we got the story started and asked them to correct us?

Anything I can do to help make this happen, I'll do. Please stay in touch! --SB_Johnny|^talk|_books 22:26, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

jag

kao djete su uvjek govorili da sam sladak kao Jagoda..pa tako su me zvali Jagoda i jos me zovu to familja i prijatelji. Jagoda je moj nadimak Jagoda 1 02:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC PS Ajde javi se na Makedonski malo haha Jagoda 1 02:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Constitution of Serbia

COUNTRIES RUSH TO INCLUDE KOSOVO IN THEIR CONSTITUTIONS, AFTER SERBIA 'S MOVE

After Serbia included Kosovo in its constitution, other countries from the region have declared their intentions to do the same. They point out that they are doing this in line with their good neighborly relations policies. The governments of Albania, Bosnia, Croatia and Hungary have made it clear they are planning to adopt new constitutions which mention Kosovo in their preamble. They say they must stand by Serbia, just as they did in the original Battle of Kosovo in 1389.

A Croatian government official said "We fought in that battle together with the Serbs, we lost in that battle together with the Serbs and we should remember that battle together with the Serbs." A Hungarian representative echoed him, saying, "Hungarian soldiers fought and lost side by side with Serbian soldiers." A Bosnian government spokesperson said, "If King Tvrtko would be alive today, he would be very proud of us." Albanian representatives stressed, "Teodor II Muzaka didn't give his life in vain in Kosovo, we Albanians realize, just as our Balkan neighbours, that it was an important loss." Commenting on these moves, a Serbian official said, "Both Prince Lazar's body and his head would be turning in his grave, if he knew that his Balkan war buddies' sacrifices were not being respected. By including Kosovo in their constitutions they show that this lost medieval battle is as important to them as it is to us." When asked whether "the fact that the Serbs were on the winning side (the Turks), too, complicates the situation?" the official answered, "It doesn't matter if Vuk Brankovic fought with the winners, what matters is that a Serbian prince (Lazar) led the losers!"

The government of Kosovo plans to include Kosovo in the new constitution, too. When asked by SEE Online whether that was necessary, a spokesperson replied, "Duh! We lost in that battle, too! We not only lost, but we hosted the battle. We are so proud we hosted that bloodbath, that we will mention it in our constitution more than one time." He reminded us that another battle had been lost in Kosovo by Janosh Hunyadi (in 1448), and that this doubles the responsibility of Hungary to include Kosovo in its constitution. Albania’s responsibility would have been double, too, if the Serb forces didn't interrupt Gjergj Kastrioti - Skenderbeg, in his way to assist Hunyadi in losing the battle to the Turks.

A Turkish government official said, "We can't express the regret we feel that we won those battles. This makes it impossible for us to include Kosovo in our constitution. In fact, this is making us reconsider the motives behind the Serbs' decisions to help us win those two battles." He added, however, that Turkey plans to include other battlefields in its constitution. "The Albanians kicked our butts in no less than 27 medieval battles! We just have to include those battlefields in our constitution, and Kruja will be first in the list." He said, they also plan to include Austria in the preamble, because, "one of our most glorious losses was at Vienna."

France has declared that they want to commemorate the Battle of Waterloo in their new constitution, even though it is not a medieval battle. A French official pointed out, "Everyone is remembering their Waterloos, and we have to remember our Waterloo, too. And, our Waterloo is Waterloo, Belgium."

A member of the European Medieval Association said they are thrilled with the decisions of these countries to include medieval battlefields in their constitutions. According to her, "In no way should Serbia, or any other country, be seen as having a medieval mindset, if it includes the site of a medieval battle in its constitution." She adds, "You have to know where you lost your medieval battles! And what better way is there than by mentioning them in your constitution?!"

In the meantime, a local entrepreneur in Prishtina, Kosovo, has begun selling ready made constitutions which include Kosovo in them, where all you have to do is fill in the name of your country. "With the surge in demand for new constitutions with Kosovo in them, I figured I have to work on the supply side." The Kosovar government, on the other hand, has enabled a feature in its website through which you can automatically "Add Kosovo to your constitution" with just a click of the mouse for only 25$.

SEE Online asked some Kosovar citizens about this. A library worker expressed complete shock that somebody was asking her opinion about the matter. She says "I can't think of any good reason why should anyone ask us Kosovars whether they should include Kosovo in their constitution or no! Seriously. Can you think of one?!" A shopkeeper shows similar surprise: "When has anyone asked us whether we want Kosovo in their constitutions?! Anyway, how is that going to affect my daily business here in Kosovo?"

Disclaimer: All characters and statements are entirely fictitious and any similarity with real characters or statements is completely coincidental.

posted by --Albanian since Stone Age 04:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

This is where I got it from [6]. It sounded funny to me so I just wanted to share it.--Albanian since Stone Age 15:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I fixed it. However, it's just the same text.--Albanian since Stone Age 20:12, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hercegovina

I realised while editing Herzegovina that we don't have an article on Stefan Vukčić Kosača. Perhaps you'd be the person to knock something up? :-) --estavisti 11:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Slavic Ancestry Userbox Template

First of all, this is the 1st time I'm replying to someone, and I'm not sure if the reply should be written here or in my talk page, so I apologize in advance if I made a mistake :)

I believe we actually have three SAME-TYPE templates ;) I wasn't aware of the existence of your template, and this is the first template that I came across: User:Brendel/Userboxes/User Slavic

I didn't like it much, so I decided to freshen it up by adding a picture of Slavic countries in the ID box. I wasn't aware that users were obliged to use template userboxes, as opposed to creating their own, but if that is the case, I'll change/delete mine to be in compliance with the rules.

However, I must admit that I still prefer my solution to yours - while Pan-Slavic flag was approved as the official flag of all Slavic nations more than one century ago, I have a feeling that it's slightly outdated and obsolete, and that its colours fail to represent and include those Slavic countries whose flags sport other colours (Ukraine, Bulgaria, Poland, Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro, etc.). For that reason, I believe that the map of Slavic-language-speaking countries is a better way to represent Slavdom, since it includes all the countries where a Slavic language is spoken.

Pozdrav! :)

- Dugouha 13:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

By saying that the map was obsolete, I was merely expressing my opinion. Of course it is still in use, and it is officially as legit as the map, it's just that I like the map better. Matter of personal tastes :)

As for your comment about the map, I'm not sure I got it right. What do you mean by "is it logical?" And which countries should the map represent if not those in which Slavs hold relative or absolute majority?

Thinking now... you might be referring to those countries in which Slavic immigrants are numerous, yet fail to represent majority (e.g. USA, Australia, Canada, etc.)... Well, they might feel left out, true, but I'd like to remind you (them?) that the stress here is on ancestry and the map shows those countries which their ancestors most probably came from. Heck, I'm one of those minority Slavs, and I don't feel left out ;)

Finally, the remark about Russia's Siberia and Far East is apparently totally irrelevant, as it is obvious that the map is cut off for the purpose of space economy, and that by including Russia's European part, it implicitly includes the whole territorry of Russia.

Anyway, the bottom line is that we seem to be bickering about matters of personal taste, which is futile per se - k'o što ono kažu, svijetu je teško ugoditi. A i dosta je bilo svađe među Slovenima (posebno balkanskim) zbog kojekakvih gluposti i bez ove naše prepirke :)

If your userbox hasn't already been set as default/template Slavic Ancestry userbox, maybe we could make a poll or something, to see which one other users prefer. If it has been set as a template, then it's fine by me - I'll change my page to make it rules-compliant, after all, you're here longer than I am, and I'm sure you know the ropes better than I do :)

Just let me know what to do.

Sve najbolje!

- Dugouha 00:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

p.s. seems I entered an extra character when replying, and it messed up my subtitle formatting. It's fixed now, sorry about that :)

- Dugouha 00:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Look at this

Names of Battle of Kosovo in different languages. If you know something else, please add it. I will answear your poll toworrow, and I'm looking forward to it. Best regards - Litany 18:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hvala!

Kako ide? Hope it's all good! Thanks for visiting my page. Doviđenja! The RSJ ^¿Qué? 00:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Izvini, ne znam Bunjevački :) - The RSJ ^¿Qué? 01:16, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Questions

You support the independence of Montenegro - but it's not jeoperdized. It's nice that you feel enthusiastic about a country's sovereignity - but what's the purpose if there's no reason?

Also, how's in Saudi Arabia? --PaxEquilibrium 20:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late answer. I think I just forgot to edit my userpage in a long time, that's why its still there. Thanks for telling me. I'll see if I should keep it there or not.

As for Saudi Arabia, life is well uh... different you might say. Army surrounds lots of things and quite boring for me living here. --Petrovic-Njegos 06:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Greetings

Greetings to you too! Your articles seem quite good and NPOV to me, but I must say I'm interested in history, but just that - I don't have any deep knowledge, my field of education is law:) So I can't actually contribute much, I just further educate myself and translate some articles to Serbian wiki. Best regards, Velimir85 19:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to the Military history WikiProject!

Hi, and welcome to the Military history WikiProject! As you may have guessed, we're a group of editors working to improve Wikipedia's coverage of topics related to military history.

A few features that you might find helpful:

• Our navigation box points to most of the useful pages within the project.
• The announcement and open task box is updated very frequently. You can watchlist it if you're interested; or, you can add it directly to your user page by including {{WPMILHIST Announcements}} there.
• Most important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is highly recommended that you watchlist it.
• We've developed a number of guidelines for article structure and content, template use, categorization, and other issues that you may find useful.
• The project's monthly newsletter will normally be delivered as a link, but several other formats are available.

There are a variety of interesting things to do within the project; you're free to participate however much—and wherever—you'd like:

• Additional reviewers for the military history peer review and A-Class review processes are always needed!
• Our requests page has extensive lists of requested articles, images, maps, and translations.
• All project members are invited to help with this fortnight's project collaboration.
• We have a number of task forces that focus on specific topics, nations, periods, and conflicts.
• The assessment department is working on rating the quality of every military history article in Wikipedia.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask one of the project coordinators, or any experienced member of the project, and we'll be happy to help you. Again, welcome! We look forward to seeing you around! Kirill Lokshin 19:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Possessive, not Obsessive

Dunno, I respect your enthusiasm and energy, however, your texts ARE fairly single-sided. Also, I can understand how you feel when someone starts to edit "your baby", we all are a bit possesive, for sure. However, we have to accept that there are other people with, perhaps, opposite opinion. Also, little bit of self-criticism (like every good communist;-) goes a long way.

As for Sideshow Bob, I had a look only at his edits on Grand Duke Mirko Petrovic, and I pretty much agree with them. I think we should all remove any nationalist labelling (Serb, Montenegrin etc.), as it doesn't really add any value to the text and it is clearly pretentious and with an agenda behind it. As long as you are persisting in keeping these labels (as in Serbian cyrillic etc.) I cannot but see you as a nationalist. Anyway, it's much more colourfull on Wikipedia with you and CG around. I trully appreciate what you have done. Momisan.

Balkan military history task force

Hi there. I see you joined up to the task force. I have made some suggestions at the talk page of the task force: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Balkan military history task force#How to organize this task force. If you want come and discuss the proposals. Kyriakos 08:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You from Yuga, Serbia?

We need information on the exact day the Yugoslav war ended with Nato, was it June 11 or 10th? How is life ther? I spent some time in Croatia as a student, I understand your language, not much difference, i think yuga was one great country.

10 June 1999. Life's horrible. Just horrible. No comment... and I'm from Yuga, but not Serbia. :) --PaxEquilibrium 11:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I there, i had to take some classes in zagred some time ago, but that was after war, why did macedonia ever separate, i mean, exceltp slovenia, (partially) all other 5 republics stink and are going nowhere... So, you are sure june 10th was the end, i recall official signing was june 11th? Final bomb was on that day? So what's wrong in yuga, you guys can not go travel much? what part of yuga u from?

Macedonia firstly supported Milosevic, but Macedonian nationalism and fear of the growing Serbian nationalism kicked in. It wanted, in the likehood of Slovenia, to be "free". Yes, June 10th was the end of it. I'm fro Croatia's Frontier, but I'm now in Belgrade. And no, we don't travel at all (actually, depends what you consider by "travel" :) --PaxEquilibrium 23:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

??

pa....

jel ti to stvarno?! pravi hrvatski vracas na pogresni?! --VKokielov 01:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

kada izigravas ples s persiranjem, izgleda sizofrenicno. --VKokielov 00:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Translation: When you dance around with "ti/vi" (tu/vous), it looks schizophrenic. --VKokielov 00:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I would be very careful what I say about me. Not only have I edited Wikipedia, less than five hundred times in the past four months -- how much of that has been interaction with users? -- but, also, it so happens that the only one I bump into is you. Only you. That should tell you something. As should your failed RfAs, and the fact that Serbs from Serbian Wiki voted against you. --VKokielov 00:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"altogether with other weird edits of yours (like on Jakov's user page, which altogether you in anger, totally against WP:Civil, justify like someone just threw a nuke at you [when it was just introducing in Wikipedia's policy]) have been completely unconstructive to this Project. " What are you talking about? If you mean the "it looks strange" bit -- of course it looks strange. He writes "Croatia is first" and then goes and tells me that he barely has time for EN. It doesn't take any time to register. You know that. --VKokielov 00:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You deliberately misrepresent what I say. I don't know what to do. First of all, no Croat voted for you. Second of all, the Serbs who are most prominent on Sr::Wiki voted against you. Now, as regards your complaints against me, I will repeat myself. It is striking that you are the ONLY ONE THAT notices. Is it, mayhap, because you are the only one I brush shoulders with? I'm not talking about my rightness or wrongness, now -- only about your reaction to it. --VKokielov 00:39, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

That's right. The others haven't the leisure I have in confronting you; they have a turf to defend. I don't.

Please don't switch between "ti" and "vi" capriciously, or do any of the other things you keep doing -- like using "thou" in ordinary English speech. It impresses no one, and if you think it does, then you've misread people terribly. --VKokielov 00:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Question2

I live in Saudi Arabia with my parents.--Petrovic-Njegos 05:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Bulgaria

For your information, the "Macedonians" started to consider themselves as "Macedonians" after decades of serbian terror. This is all a serbian lie to tear off these lands from Bulgaria. If you admit that in the past this population used to be Bulgarian, in what reasons you claim that nowadays it all of a sudden became Macedonian??? Now the government in Skopie is trying to prove that Samuil, Gotse Deltchev, Nikola Vaptsarov and so on and so on are Macedonians, which is simply ABSURD. If there was a Macedonian ethnos i think it would have had heros, not invent them from our history.

It would be far better for the population of the Reopublic of Macedonia to finally join Bulgaria. From economic point of view, it is better for you, not for us; from politikal point of view, the percentage of the Albanians which now constitutes about 40% of the population there will greatly decrease and you will not have problems with them.

I heard for the stupid and insulting campaign of a Dutch deputy for recognition of Macedonian minority here, perhaps your statement has something to do with it... --Gligan 07:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. There were Slavs all over the Balkan Peninsular before the arrival of the Bulgars. The founder of Old Great Bulgaria, khan Kubrat had five sons, who after his death moved in different directions. One part of the Bulgars lead by Asparukh settled down in what is now northern Bulgaria and southern Romania; one part of them under Kuber settled in what is now Macedonia, but they were not so strong, and bacame vasslas of the Byzantines, but when khan Krum captured Sofia and the lands between the two states they naturally united.

Our nation was established as a union between Bulgars and Slavs, so it is natural that we wanted to liberate all the Slavs from the Byzantines; and the Slavs themselves wanted to join Bulgaria which was in their eyes the mother country. Some of the Slavs (the serbs) refused to do so (I guess they were bribed by the Byzantines, but no one can be sure about these reasons), while the Slavs to the east of Belgrade (including the lands of modern Macedonia) accepted Bulgaria as a state of their own; their never tried to establish states of their own because they were integral part of our society. Even under the Turkisk rule, when there was not a strong centre or an Emperor in Preslav or Tarnovo, when there were almost no Bulgarian institutions those population remained Bulgarian, they never stated themselves as Macedonians until the serbs started interfering from the 19th century onwards.

I hope you are wise enough to think neutrally and logically on what I wrote above and you will reach the same conclusions. --Gligan 09:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, in the late Middle Ages, the serbs did not claim that these lands (Macedonia) are theirs, they did not claim that the population there was Serb or Macedonian; this began from the 19th century. Macedonia was the heart of thier realm, because there were not so big and developped cities in Rashka or Duklja such as the newly conquerred Skopie (their new capital), Ohrid or Nis. My nationalism (as well as nationalism as a whole) is perhaps backward nowadays because it leads to conflicts. I understand this very well. We cannot take back Macedonia by force, but this does not mean that there is no chance. The local population should be persuaded, it should be allowed to read books about their history without censureship by their government. A society cannot live in a great lie forever. You agree that for instance Samuil was Bulgarian Emperor, but why then the government in Skopie persistently insists on its theory??? Because they are seeking ways to support these lies, otherwise the Macedonians themselves would like to join Bulgaria. This is why I am writting some nationalistic statement, I simply want the people to think on this and discover the truth (if they want to).

If the Macedonian population was ready to really have its own seperate country, they should say something like this: Samuil (or whoever Bulgarian heroe they consider Macedonian) was a Bulgarian, yes our lands were once Bulgarian but we now feel that it would be better to be independent. But instead what do they say??? Our Macedonian state was liberated from Bulgarian yoke under our great Emperor Samuil, Gotse Deltsev and Yane Sandanski fought for the liberation of Macedonia; so this shows that they are trying to prove something which is wrong, and this thing is that they are not Macedonians, they remain Bulgarians genetically and they do not want to admit it. --Gligan 15:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The Macedonian lands joined Bulgaria in the middle of the 9th century, never heard of Serbs there before that time. It is true that the Macedonian government admits Samuil proclaimed himself as Czar of the Bulgarians; but it claims that this step was only to gain international recognition and he remains Macedonian ruler nonetheless, which is of course nonesense. He was not proclaimed emperor until the death of the last Czar of the former dinasty Roman in 997.

I am glad to talk with so smart person.:):):) --Gligan 19:02, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It was interesting for me to learn this. But the Serbs left these lands and they were settled by Bulgarian Slavs and the following situation occurs: the same as in the Crusade Campaigns, they were trying to reconquer (in the 14th century) lands which no longer belonged to the serbs for five centuries, which were already Bulgarian. The Serbs held these lands for less the 30 years until thier empire desintegrated and did not have time to repopulate them with Serbs; so under the Ottoman rule the population there remained mostly Bulgarian, as it is now ;)

I hope that I will not insult you with this question; but why do you think it would be better for Macedonia not to join Bulgaria? :):);) --Gligan 16:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, under joining I mean incorporation of Macedonia into Bulgaria (forming one state called Bulgaria with three historical regions Moesia, Thrace and Macedonia) , and under "better" I mean for the population of Macedonia.

The Macedonian lands remained in a state called Serbia for 30 years; they were conquered by the Turks much later, but then they consisted of numerous independent feudal states of Valkashin, Uglesha or Simeon, while the territories of the Serbian Kingdom remained to the northwest : ) --Gligan 18:40, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. By Constitution Bulgaria is not exactly the state of the Bulgarians but the state of all its citizens no matter of their origin, religion or believes. We even do not have an official religion, we are traditionally Orthodox Christians but nowhere in the Constitution is written that it is the official religion of the country (which I personaly don't like). As far as the national recognition is concerned, I can only guess, because after all I am only 19 and still do not understand the whole politics of our government. But in my opinion the vast majority of the current Macedonian population will be officially recognised as Bulgarian. The problem would be that some people would not wish to call themselves Bulgarians and will think us for occupators, but these I think would be minority and with the time they will understand that there are no Macedonians (at least their children). I fear this will be a difficult process, as it was when Macedonia was conquered by the serbs in 1913. I doubt that it would be an official recognition of the Macedionian ethnics, but people can still consider themselves as Macedonians if they want to because in our country is allowed to consider youself as a Marsian if you wish; but with the time this number will steadily decrease as they read books or watch films on the theme and they will regain their Bulgarian indentity. After all, it is an honour to be Bulgarian ; ) The Albanians and the other peoples of Macedonia will remain, of course, Albanians, Roma or Turks; but there will not be a recognised national minority because both the Albanians and the Turks will constitite less than 10% of the population of the enlarged state.

It would be better for the peoples of the both countries to stand together because it would be easier to withstand the national interests, which I think are one and the same for Bulgaria and Macedonia. An important point is that it would not be necessary for Macedonia go through the long and very difficult way to the European Union.

No, the serbs will not like this at all :):):) --Gligan 19:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you are right, this is why the unification should not took place suddenly but only on condition that the Macedonian population realise what the situation is (I mean when they finally they find their Bulgarian indentity). This might happen in 20, 50, 100 years or not at all. When we discuss this matter with friends, they often say that time will come when the Albanians will become majority in Macedonia and then the Macedonians themselves will want to join us. They also say that we shall gradually show them through the media who they are. One of them even told me that the most popular tv program in Macedonia is the Bulgarian Planeta TV (which I doubt). --Gligan 20:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

nationalities

Don't say foolish things. I don't know the difference between Croats and Serbs. I know only where you cast your lots, and how your own side reacts to you. You can't help it. I still don't know why. Even in what you just wrote -- "I am Serbia and you're Croatia". --VKokielov 00:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Pardon -- "I'm the Serb and you're Croatia". Wonderful slip-in. congratulations. --VKokielov 00:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh -- I see how ir goes. You're poor Dubrovnik or Vukovar, and I'm mean old Yugoslavia.

I'm tired of this crap. From now on, when you address me, do it in English -- and do it like a human being. I'll address you only in English also. If you can comply with that simple precept, we'll get along just fine. --VKokielov 00:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

all right

So I've been accused of being strange myself. Not once. Sometimes because I'm a foreigner.

I know what you mean to do. I understand you. I even believe you're honest about it. But you're going about it the wrong way. Please take it firsthand. I was raised to laughter, and not once. I was raised to laughter -- and I should have been. There are certain norms of behavior with which human beings must comply. These norms aren't absolute, and they vary from place to place, but the thing to remember whenever you break them is that the human being on the other end of the line (or internet connection, perhaps) may read something very different from what you wrote. --VKokielov 00:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe you and I can find a common language. Let's promise each other, instead of addressing each other in English, that we will not talk about these Balkan topics. If you have something against what I wrote, ask someone to talk to me -- I'll do the same with you. God knows neither of us are short friends here, and we have a few in common. Deal? --VKokielov 00:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Oprosti to o sizofreniji. Meni je hrvatski sasvim u redu -- nije tu stvar u hrvatskom. Stvar je u tome sto si vise puta presao s jednog nacina obracanja na drugi, pa to me zbunilo, kao sto su neke druge stvari koje si radio -- kao naprimjer to besprekidno bacanje teksta koje si izvodio (mada naravno na samom pocetku). Dopustimo da smo mi iz istoka burni ljudi i da ne znamo, kad dodemo na Internet, kako se treba ponasati. Ako ti i ja mozemo utemeljiti primirje medu nama, bit ce obojici dobro, jer ja kao stranac stvarno nemam pojma. (Kao sto sam rekao -- zato drzim se daleko i nikad ne vodim napad) --VKokielov 01:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Nemam drugih rjesenja. I nemoj da se stavljas na zrtvu -- to je ono najgore u tebi sto svi mi tko ne slazemo se s tobom volimo najmanje. Ti nisi zrtva, nego vrlo dobro obavjesten sidjeljak -- opet kazem, to izlazi iz komentarija na tvom RfAu, od administratora na wiki:sr, wiki:hr, i wiki:bs. --VKokielov 01:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Trebam to kvalificirati. Mi smo svi tko ucestvujemo u ovim svadama, svi smo sidjeljaci -- ali bogme ne znam zasto ti pretendiras na neutralnost kada neutralnosti tu nema. Razlika medu tobom i Dujom ili Joyem jeste -- ili barem bila je do ovog proljeca -- da su oni dosta daleki od tih samih svada. Ali ipak, oni ne stavljaju "sh" predlozke na stranu i ne brane ono sto ne mogu dokazati. Dijxtra, koji stavlja taj "sh", izgleda da vjeruje u to -- dobro njemu. Ja se s tim ne slazem. Ne treba zivjeti u proslosti. Ali ni Dijxtra se ne pravi na jednog neutralnog i nevinog. --VKokielov 01:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

User talk:PaxEquilibrium/VKokielov babble

Dobro -- kad ne razumijes, ne vazi. Inace nikad necemo doci do primirja. Sto je na kraju krajeva nas cilj, zar ne? Ako, naravno, neces da me zgazis? :D --VKokielov 01:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Nemoj da moju ljubav prema Izraelu nazivas nacionalizmom. Ja pod nacionalizmom razumijem fasizam. Ono sto ja ispitujem prema Izraelu, ili sto Hrvati ispitaju prema Hrvatskoj -- to nije fasizam; to je ljubav naroda koji te je odgojio i u kojem si odrastao, a koji te branio. --VKokielov 01:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

crnogorac?!

a ja mislio da si hrvatski srbin? --VKokielov 02:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ma kakvi da je on Hrvatski Srbin. On je Hrvatski Crnogorac a živi u Beogradu. On je rođen u Karlovecu, ali je rasta u Crnu Goru. Njegovo majka je iz Cetinja. Malo dođe porijeklo Paštrovića i Grbalja. Crna Gora 02:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ovo postaje samo malo iritantnim. Necu vise diskutirati. Ako ne mozes uzet na lice i najmanji udarac, i to onaj za koji sam ja spreman uzeti odgovornost -- necu s tobom nista imati. Nisi ti s neba pao. --VKokielov 14:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Đe si brate sokole!

Zdravo Pax-e. Izvini što nijesam odavno napisao pismu tebi. E vala sam kazao VKokielov da više ne provocira Crnogorci na Vikipediju.

Kako ide s tvojim doprinosima. Viđio sam da sada imaš preko 9.000 doprinosi. Bravo!

E vala je žalostno što Milo nije više naš Premijer. E, dobro si reka što Milo više neće da bude Premijer Crne Gore.

Viđim da se još zbavljaš sa istorijom Hrvatske. Oću da budem ka ti, dobar istoričar na Vikipediju.

Prijatno Pax-e i nemoj da nikad prestaneš s tvojem dobro radnje na Vikipediju.

PS, Što je Boris Malagurski blokiran od oba Engleski i Srpski Vikipedije. I možeš li da mi malo pomogneš sa Crnogorskom Vikipedijom (ja sam napravio testna vikipedija prije mjesec dana) Crna Gora 02:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

A bit of help please

Can you please help me with dealing with the User:GiorgioOrsini, the one you pointed it out to me on my talk page? He keeps vandalising(simply removes content from) List of Croatians and I don't know what to do, who to contact, etc. Thanks in advance. --Factanista 21:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Ragusan???

I have replied to your message on my Talk page. --Slowking Man 10:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

?

ne razumijem kako covjek koji je prezivio rat moze razgovarati kao sto ti. Nadam se da ovo poredenje te nece opet uvrijediti, ali ti govoris kao Dalai Lama u okolnostima koje ga najvise mrze i ne zele.

Ako si bio u SFRJ, onda si citao Anne Frank's diary. Razdijelenje toga s ovim je moderna greska -- kao i greska jeste mislenje da, ako bi se dvojica strana obmjenile, da ne bi nam Jevrejima ili vam Krscanima pod arapskom hegemonijom bilo osam sto put gore nego sto je njima pod nama. --VKokielov 16:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Stavit cu za tebe objasnenje moga oca, koje je on meni uvijek stavljao na sto, da bih ga razumio: "nije moguce drzati se od strane u ratu. Moras izabrati stranu. I pazi, ako izaberes pogresnu stranu, tebe nitko nece postovati, jer niko ne voli izdajnika." --VKokielov 16:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ne znam. Mozda si u pravu. Ali, kao sto je u slucaju i s Jevrejima -- ovo nije prvi rat. I nece biti posljednji, ukoliko se sve ne preobrati o ne postave s glave na nogu. Tesko je tu pricati o osjecajima uopce, a kad pricas o miru (kao sto sam ja neko vrijeme), pocinju na te ispod obrva gledati. --VKokielov 21:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A sto je treba mrzit? Zasto nije moguce samo zanemariti? Ostaviti na stranu? Zasto ne pustiti svakoga da ide svojim putem? Negodovanje i mrznja su razliciti pojmovi. --VKokielov 23:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"Ne. Koju god naciju odaberem, neko - gdje god bio, ali uvijek neko - ce me mrziti zbog toga sto odabrah; tako da je poprilicno svejedno. I opet, kako mogu da se solidarisem s onim protivu cega nastupam istovremeno (mislim na politicke odredbe). Pa hajde, ici cu tvojim rjecima :) - ti si Jevrejin, i Jevreji gdje god da su u svijetu (pa cak - ne, pogotovo sada kada imaju svoju drzavu) ce uvijek osjecati vrlo jaku pripadnost jednih drugima, i tako mislim da ti jednostavno to ne mozes razumijeti. Kod mene ("nas"), to je zaista neprimenjivo." Pogodio si u tacku. To ti je istina. Istina, i velika zalost. --VKokielov 23:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Please!

Be advised not to leave offensive and meaningless messages on my talk pages!

List of Croatians

Please see Wikipedia:Vandalism. Your edits of plain removal are classified as vandalism according to Wikipedia's policy and are not allowed. Please refer to defining your edits, as you may be blocked for further activities in the likehood of your latest contributions. --PaxEquilibrium 23:37, 18 November 2006 --GiorgioOrsini 16:07, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

List of Croatians & Vandalism

These are not offensive messages, but a re excerpts taken from the Wikipedia:Vandalism policy page, which deals with these things. Also, the removal of warnings is a no-no, especially when they're justified, like in this case. You may get an extended block, as it seems as if you're hiding that which you're doing. --PaxEquilibrium 17:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

My further advice to you - please stay away from my talk page and do not tutor me or threaten me with blocks!--GiorgioOrsini 01:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

stvoreni da mrzimo

Ovdje prestupas granicu koju ne smijes prestupiti. Prije nego se upustis u tu diskusiju, moras prvo opredjeliti sto mislis pod onome sto si rekao. Da li to znaci da nema nista u zivotu osim ove emocije? To je potpuna neistina. Ja volim svoje roditelje i umro bih za njih -- kako bi oni umrjeli i za mene. Jesam li spreman umrjeti za Arapa? Kad tone u vodi, valjda, jesam -- jer on u taj trenutak vise nije Arap, nego covjek kao sto sam ja. Ali onda moram da se pitam: tone li on u vodi, ili pak samo se cini na to? Sto se mene tice, ja bih volio da kazem: ja cu ga spasiti prvo, a pitati potom. To bismo svi voljeli da kazemo. Ali nemam sumnje da bih ga ostavio da tone ako bi to znacilo da cu spasti svoje roditelje - s kojom god zaloscu on tonuo.

Ovo je u nama ljudima od trenutka kada smo rodeni. Mudrost je u tome da razumijes to, i primis stanje stvari onakvo kakvo jeste. Ja smatram da treba da ljudi razumiju: mrznja medu plemenima ne postoji. To je jos jedna gromka izmislica -- jos jedan primjerak praha u oci. Ono sto je natjeralo te vojnike da ubijaju, da tjeraju, da siluju, to nije mrznja, nego oholost -- prljava oholost s dodatkom odsustva savjesti. Danasnji ljudi, svojom vecinom, nemaju savjesti; savjest nije upucena njima. Pa i oduvijek tako bilo -- i u Njemackoj 1940h, i u Angliji 1900h kada su djecu bestidno ganjali po fabricima da rade dane od dvadeset i cetiri sata bez prekida. Razlika medu tim vremenom i nasim jeste, da je taj skup ljudi koji je to poricao i koji je u tome vidio svu gadnost koja je zracila odande, taj skup je u to vrijeme imao dobro osjecanje za ono sto se jos tada moglo zvati "covjeske vrline." Sada te vrline se priblizavaju sve vise do nestanka, a svjest o njima je vecim dijelom vece izgubljena. Mislim, naravno, na spremnost zrtvovati za one koji su ti bliski -- a jedna od stvari koje ces morati zrtvovati -- nema sumnja o tome -- jeste komfortan zivot, bez neprijatelja i zlozelatelja. --VKokielov 23:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

etnicko pripadanje nema nimalo veze s time. Sam si rekao za to. Znaci treba odgovor traziti drugdje -- jere ocigledno je u pitanju nesto sto je povezano s etniconscu, ali ne identicno njoj. --VKokielov 01:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

da ga poznajem? naravno bih ga prvog spasio. Da ne poznajem obojicu, ne mogu obecati nista. -VKokielov 21:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Nisam uvjeren da ona druga vrsta postoji. da, naravno, pod tom zastavom svasta se radi, ali se nikad ne zna sto je stampano pod odjelom, ako me razumijes. --VKokielov 00:36, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Eastern Slavonija, Western Srijem, Baranja

When was this region, de jure part of a Serbian state? iruka 00:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In response:

• the Serbian Kingdom (Syrmian) for which you must be referring to the Lower Srijem (below Danube) as the Upper Srijem was ruled by a Hungarian Ugrin Csák;
• the Serbian Empire - I'm assuming you are referring to that of emperor Dusan - the boundary of which was at the Drava and Danube rivers & as such did not include Baranya, Srijem or Slavonija;
• the Duchy of Syrmium; the Serbian Dukedom; the Dukedom of Serbia and Tamis Banate; - most of these entities were merely adminstrative provinces of the Hungarian kingdom which at times involved some measure of autonomy to reflect the high migration of Serbs to the region. However, in most cases, they did not include Western Srijem, and Eastern Slavonia, nor Eastern Srijem since the treaty of Karlowitz as these areas were part of the crown land of Croatia and the triume Kingdom of Croatia - however the Serbian Voivodship did include Baranya;
• the Kingdom of Serbia - In wikipedia it mentions that Srijem joined the kingdom of Serbia on Nov 24 1918, but the map only shows eastern Srijem. There is a problem with this b/c at the same time, the territories were part of the State of the Croats, Serbs & Slovenes that declared independence from Austria-Hungary?;
• the Serb-Hungarian Baranya-Baja Republic - a disputed territory between Hungary & Kingdom of Serbs Croat and Slovenes that did not include Srijem or Slavonia;
• the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes - drawing a long bow here aren't we? By that rational, all of Vojvodina, Sandzak etc was de jure part of Croatia;
• Kingdom of Yugoslavia - same point as for the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes;
• Autonomous Province of Vojvodina (in the Republic of Serbia)- Srijem, Baranya or Eastern Slavonia not part of this entity;
• the Serbian Autonomous Region of eastern Slavonia, croatian Baranya and western Syrmium and the Republic of Serbian Frontier - they are not dejure recognised entities and existed as self-proclaimed republics and as a result of a military campaign. These regions were reintegrated into Croatia by the UN as part of the Dayton accords and were explicitly recognised as an integral part of the republic of Croatia.

So in conclusion, there was never a de-jure internationally recognised Serb state that was composed of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja and Srijem. Serbian Autonomous Region of eastern Slavonia, croatian Baranya and western Syrmium was merely a vehicle for Milosevic's regime's attempt at a land grab for the oil fields in Eastern Slavonia. As Milovan Djilas stated in an interview I saw in the early 1990's, the AVNOJ boundaries between SR Serbia and SR Croatia were drawn on the basis of ethnic delineation. Thus SR Serbia got Eastern Srijem, whilst Croatia was compensated with Istria. iruka 03:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

You are trolling? no? ;) Apart from the fact that Croatia-Slavonia was one crownland (of which Syrmia was a part off), and that prior to being reunited, it had previously existed as one entity as the kingdom of Croatia within Hungary and before this as part the Kingdom of Croatia under various stages of the Trpirmir dynasty. This continuity in terms of integralness to the various Croat states over the ages and Croat demographic was why Western Srijem remained part of SR Croatia, and Eastern Srijem was given to the SR Serbia by virtue of the Serbian demographic there, as alluded to by Milovan Djilas's comments. iruka 14:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Upper Srijem was ruled by a Hungarian Ugrin Csák and the lands were reincorporated into the Kingdom of Hungary and subsequently the Slavonia crownland that often changed hands between Hungary and Croatia. Speculation over his effective control is neither here nor there. iruka 14:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

...it was a part of the Serbian state, but was never a de-jure internationally recognised Croat state that was composed of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja and Srijem. :)))

Touche! :) But you miss the obvious Republic of Croatia recognised in 1992 that comprised the territory of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja and Srijem. ; )

Putting aside Baranja; Eastern Slavonia & Western Srijem was internationally recognised as part of King Tomislav's & Kresimir IV's Croatia. It was part of a crownland (initially Croatia then as Croatia-Slavonia) recognised as a title by the nobility of Europe. It was also part of the autonomous Banovina Croatia within the first Yugoslavia; NDH; and the Peoples Republic of Croatia and Socialist Republic of Croatia in the Second Yugoslavia. Thus you have a relationship between Eastern Slavonia/Western Srijem & Croat state, with interruptions, spanning over a thousand years. iruka 15:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Like I said, the original reason was to storm Croatia through those territories, but in the end it ended to historical territorial aspirations. Ethnic definition? The Yugoslav republics were formed by neither historical nor ethnic definitions, or a combination of the two. I hope you're not referring to the Ustasha Axis Independent State of Croatia that contained eastern Syrmium.

The modern boundaries of Croatia and BiH was largely formed by the treaty of Karlowitz which roled back the Ottoman Turks gains in Europe. The triune kingdom of Croatia included Eastern Srijem - I believe this was the basis for it's inclusion in the NDH? Ethnically, as stated earlier, and per Milovan Djilas's revelations, the AVNOJ boundary between SR Croatia & SR Serbia was drawn in 1945 on ethnic lines. Even 50 years later, Croats still held a relative majority in the area that constituted the self declared Serb autonomous region of Eastern Slavonia and Baranja and Srijem. Any historical claim was overshadowed by the demographic reality and the stronger historical connection with various iterations of Croat statehood. As for places around Knin (Kraljevski Nin) and Petrova Gora (King Petar Svacic) - the historical Croatian connection is obvious. To claim the AVNOJ boundaries do not resonate historical and ethnic realities would involve an oversight of these strong facts to the contrary. iruka 15:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are no speculations. In the time Hungary ruled Slavonia directly from 1225 to 1467, this one time it was in Serbian hands. --PaxEquilibrium 14:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe such a notion is erroneous - "...Hungarian influence was stronger in the north of Croatia (Slavonia)..." in terms of granting land, only the king could do that - but he was king of Croatia 'and' Hungary. "...In 1222, the powerful Croatian nobility forced King Andrew II to issue the Golden Bull, a charter limiting royal authority. Every year he had to convene an assemly (sabor)of the armed nobility and hear complaints and requests, and the nobility had the right to resist if he did not respect their privelages." (Ivo Goldstein, history of Croatia, p22). Hardly what you call direct rule - sourced from a historian of Jewish extraction - hardly a nationalist. Furthermore, from the same source, "...in 1273 in Zagreb, the first sabor of 'All Slavonia' (today this region is Croatia north of the mountain of Gvozd (also known as Petrova Gora) and the Sava river). The nobility voted for various legal regulations and were clearly ambitious to rule alongside the king in accordance with the 1222 charter. The ban approved the assembly's conclusions." iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that having a separate ban in Slavonia was a sign of continuity of the Kingdom of Croatia because a Slavonian ban existed in the Croatian kingdom which had bans in a few different areas. Indeed, Petar Kresimir IV organised the Pannoanian Croats (in modern day Slavonia and northern Bosnia) into his kingdom peacefully by taking on the ban of Slavonia and future king of Croatia Dmitar Zvonimir as his adviser. iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, the Arpad house died out in 1301 and it was the King of Naples from the French house of Anjou that acquired the Hungary-Croatia throne. After Louis's death, there was anarchy & civil war in Croatia over accession, with some nobles ruling in their own right and others gathering around Tvrtko of Bosnia. iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

''That's what I've been trying to tell you - western Syrmia (most eastern Slavonia) weren't a part of the Croat medieval state.

Eastern Slavonia and Western Srijem at different times were part of the medieval dukedom of the Pannonian Croats, whose control was only interrupted for brief periods by the Byzantium or Bulgar empires. This region later become the Slavonia ban's part of the Kingdom of Croatia, and was part of the rule of King Tomislav, Kresimir IV and Dmitar Zvonimir (himself ban of Slavonia prior to accession to the throne). iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

That's just like the Greater Serbian demands for Krajina (although Greater Croat demands in this case, won).

Greater Croatia? Such a notion ignores the fact that the region collectively was closely associated to Croatia historically (through the Socialist Republic Croatia, People's Republic of Croatia, Banovina of Croatia (exclusive of Baranja), Independent State of Croatia, Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia and Slavonia (1867 - 1918) (exclusive of Baranja), Kingdom of Slavonia (exclusive of Baranja) & Kingdom of Croatia (exclusive of Baranja). Furthermore there was a strong ethnical link with the ethnic makeup just before the 1990's war containing a relative majority of Croats; it was composed of 90,454 (47%) Croats, 61,492 (32%) Serbs, and 40,217 (21%) others. iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Why mention 1992? I already mentioned 1939 being the first time, so there's no need to mention all the latter you mentioned. Over a thousand years? I think you're slightly overestimating. Then again, with interruptions, there are also centuries-old relationships with the Serb state. :)

The 1939 Banovina Hrvatska did not contain Baranja, but incorporated much of Srijem.

With the exception of Baranja (most closely associated with Magyar history and ethnicity), any tenuous association with adjoining Serb populated areas within the Hungarian kingdom under the guise of municipa autonomy is overshadowed by it's legal, historical connection with the Croatian crown via such agreements as Pacta Conventa, the various Golden Bull, and the two variations of the Nagodba agreements, which governed it large Croat population as well as significant numbers of Serbs, Germans and Magyars. iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course they weren't. For differents part of the country different years were used (1878, 1910, 1918, 1939, 1941) and they were semi-ethnical - for example, trying to grasp one nation, but totally leaving large chunks of the other nation in that "nation-state" of that state (supporting a single ethnic group - such was evident in the Croatian case; or Slovene). --PaxEquilibrium 16:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Marinko"

By your rationale, ethnic borders could never be achieved because any border proposal would disadvantage some group. I think the Partisans achieved a fair balance. The 1945 AVNOJ border between Eastern part of the SR Croatia and Vojvodina of SR Serbia, was actually drawn on an ethnic basis that largely coincided with historical ones. With regard the large Serb populations in Lika, Kordun and Banija, they largely remained in Croatia because it was historically, geographically and economically an integral part of Croatia, contained a large number of Croats, and was not readily linked to Serbia because of the decision to restore the territory entity of Bosnia & Herzegovina in it's Ottoman/Austria-Hungary borders and served as a tampon zone b/c of the role BiH played in nationalist Croat/Serb visions. Serbia got to keep Eastern Srijem, Banat and Backa, Sandzak and Kosovo. Montenegro got the coastline from Boka Kotor to Budva. Croatia got Istra and Baranja. So every group had some gain and something to complain about.

At the risk of contradicting the fact of my response on the subject, it's a shame the subject of borders dominates the region. Had SR Serbia focused on democratic and economic reforms rather than the military acquisition of the SR Croatia's oil fields (Slavonia) and tourist city of Dubrovnik , it would not find itself in the position it finds itself today - minus Montengrans and Kosovars as partners; and among the bottom of Europes economic ladder; and the subject of political parody over the mention in it's new constitution the site of a medieval battlefield. iruka 10:06, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Factanista

Factanista ima potpuno pravo sto govori. Nije bas sve 50/50 na Wiki. Neki imaju vise prava i i to stalno minjaju Wiki kako ono hoce.

Jedno Pitanje..kako je on moga izbrisat sve sto je pisalo na njegov discussion page? Ja sam to isto mislio jednom radit ali ti se reko da nemogu to ja brisat ako neman tvoj ok.. cak sve je copyright pod Wiki i nista se nebrise...ali on je sve izbrisao.

Ja ga ne tuzim ..samo pitan jeli moguce ..jer i ja bi tako sve izbrisao pa se vise ne vratio.

Dosta je i meni bilo od nekih poput Giovanni itd... Jagoda 1 02:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser confusion

In regards to Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Ragusan, I hope I cleared up some confusion on your part by adding that explanation from UninvitedCompany (talk · contribs), a checkuser. Cheers, Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 03:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Re:

здраво! Извини за овако спор одговор на твоју поруку. Пишем на српском јер видим да ти је сх матерњи језик. Што се тиче национализма и википедије и мог одласка и доласка......... Не знам шта да ти кажем, јер било каква тема у том правцу захтева дуго разлагање, а ово није место за то. У једној реченици, не могу да смислим било какав облик национализма, а нажалост тога има свуда, било да је српска, хрватска, словеначка или босанска википедија. Неки људи из дотичних држава као да нису сити ратовања па би хтели још и још увек млате неку већ испрану националну реторику. То је био једини разлок мог привременог одласка са српске Википедије. На њу сам се вратила, али избегавам чланке које су на онај или овај начин везане за ратове, политику, религију и такозвани патриотизам на тлу бивше СФРЈ. Бљак...  ;)

Хвала за звездицу!!! :) Поздрављам те!

п.с. Одакле си?

Svetlana Miljkovic 07:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Smoking

A prije li si opazio... :))) Hvala. Jakiša Tomić 08:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Petition

I open a petition here. --PaxEquilibrium 19:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I Dunno

I sed i think so, but im not sure. Uno, dont quote me on that.

THE MILJAKINATOR 05:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey!

Pa ti si HolyRomanEmperor! :)tj. bivshi HRE. Sad znam ko si ti :) Otkud PaksEkvilibrijum?

Nije samo bio u pitanju BMalagurski ili kako mu je vec bilo prezime.. Vec chinjenica da su chlanci koje je ON pisao ostali (i dan danas). Ima jedan chlanak koji je on napisao, i koji josh eto stoji tako na srpskoj vikipediji, a kao da ga je Mitevic pisao u ondashnje ratno hushkachko vreme.. Stoga, nije on kriv shto je tako lud, vec shto ga je celokupna zajednica, tj. wiki community, podrzhala u toj ludosti..

Shta ima po Beogradu? :)

Svetlana Miljkovic 10:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Mapa Vojvodine

Naprotiv, mapa Militargrenze je netačna. To sam već davno proverio. Granica Vojvodstva Srbije i Kraljevine Slavonije je bila kod Iloka. PANONIAN (talk) 17:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey!

You've heard Albanians complaining that they don't have rights? Or you've heard Macedonians complaining about the rights of Albanians in Macedonia?

If the first, I can tell you one thing (let me put it in Serbocroatian): Даш му прст, а он хоће читаву руку. That is the simpliest way of explaining that situation.

If the second, it is a result of the first (the quote in Serbocroatian). Regards, Bomac 18:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard about the "Yugoslav Serbo-Macedonian Alliance...". Also, there weren't any such attempts of "removing" Albanians through the Constitution.

You made me curious about this. Do you have any links? Thanks in advance, Bomac 19:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

AVNOJ Borders of the SFRJ Republics

The visual effect of the examples you have provided would change if you included Vojvodina & Kosovo which whilst enjoying autonomy were still part of SR Serbia. It would also change if you used the Triune Kingdom or the NDH instead of the Banovina.

Regarding BiH, the decision made to not include parts of BiH in either Serbia, whose claim was compromised by the Chetnik activities against Bosnjiaks (Muslims), a key interest group for Tito and the fact that most Serbs resided in Western Bosnia, difficult to link to SR Serbia; or Croatia who had a strong claim becuase of practical application (Herzegovina adjoins Dalmatia) and history but compromised by the NDH's activities, and the Muslims notion that Bosnia is indivisible. There was also the fact that many territories in Bosnia were heavily mixed and would require a population swap - an untenable position. The potential exception would have been Herzegovina where the populations were less mixed.

Note that what I wanted to show by my example was that it was not only Serbs who had people outside it's respective 'motherland' albeit in the Serbs case it was more pronounced - many Bosnjiaks resided in Serbia and Montengro, many Croats in BiH & Vojvodina, many Albanians in Serbia and Macedonia, many Hungarians in Serbia.

With regard to Slavonia, the association with the Croatian (read here Trpirmir, Arpad, Anjou, Hasburg dynasties) kings and the triune kingdom, Banovina, NDH and Socialist Croat federal republics merely reinforce the historical link and correspond to the ethnic reality of the region. Hence to conclude that Eastern Slavonia and Western Srijem, indeed the whole of Slavonia as a part of Republic of Croatia resulting from that continuity, as strange and detrimental to Serbia, is itself strange and does not factor in the continuity mentioned above.

I also think it is important to remember that the so-called gains and losses by the Republics often reflected either ethnic reality, historical links or both (albeit with a heavy bias towards more modern history); and these two criteria often reflected economic and geographical viability of the republics. Thus Bosnia was too mixed to split. Regarding the Lika, Kordun & Banija Serbs, to remove that area from Croatia would not only cut the historical continuity the area had within various iterations of the Croatian state, but undermine the geographical continuity and economic viability of both entities, as was demonstrated in the case of the short lived SAO Krajina.

Regarding the loss of Montenegro, it depends on how you view it - one could view it as loss of a Serbian land, or the reinstatement of Montenegran independence taken away from them in the early 1900's.

Out of curiosity, how would you have redrawn the AVNOJ boundaries? What would have been the criteria? iruka 07:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

• Wasn't alot of the Kosovo tension over a referendum promised circa 1945 then reneged by Tito over whether it would be included in Yugoslavia or Albania?
• Re Kosovo autonomy, I can understand how in most respects except for monetary, foreign and military functions, the region was self-governing; but Vojvodina had a majority of Serbs - if it was the case that Vojvodina was assuming a status of almost a republic, then it would have had to be supported by Serbs?
• The notion that Serbs were without an effective motherland is a claytons one. The goal of a unitary state resembled a Greater Serbia in effect under the hegemonic influence of the largest ethnic group, the Serbs. The goal of preserving and codifying federalism resembled quasi-independence for the Croats and Slovenes. Hence the idea of cultural autonomy model you suggested would not work given the end games in mind. The European experience has shown that the best model for preserving national is achieved through a nation state that accomodates minority rights, and wider issues within regional frameworks such as the EU and UN (despite their flaws).
• I disagree with your notion that Croatia could only function once the Serbs left - I believed that Croatia could have functioned with their Serbian population, had the Serbs not allowed themselves to be manipulated by Serbia - a folly they have dearly paid for. Serbs functioned well within the structures of the Kingdom of Croatia the Triune Kingdom of Dalmatia, Croatia & Slavonia, holding the position of vice-ban. They operated well within the Banovina and the Croatian Republics in the Second Yugoslavia. The reason for this is because they were more closely linked with their Croatian kin because of shared historical experiences such as the reformation, revolutions etc, exposure to same institutions and eduction, integrated economic systems (the whole of Lika, Kordun, Banija, Northern Dalmatia and Zagreb are one economic entity). This commonality was stronger for most of the time, than some epheral national consciousness with Serbs everywhere. But unfortunately, scaremongering, rural backwardness and political opportunism won out in the end. Despite this, Croatia still functions with a sizable Serb minority today. iruka 16:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Little question

Do you know why Estavist and PANONIAN both claim to be leaving Wikipedia... on the same day?? It seems like the number of us former-YU editors is dwindling. All of a sudden, I may be second-closest to being admin someday :P. (Heaven help us if that actually happened...)

Also, sorry about the King Petar Krešimir article. Unfortunately, I don't have access to many printed sources as I live in Canada. Trekking over to the Croatian library in my area for Wikipedia's sake would quickly result in me failing school, which is why I don't contribute very in-depth info. Regards. --Thewanderer 22:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Bosniakophobia should be given a chance

Some Serbs that Bosniakophobia is not an English word? Well, Serbophobia is also NOT an English word. It's not located in English dictionary. In the beginning, Serbophobia returned only 2 matches at Google. When Serbs introduced this word to Wikipedia, thanks to thousands of scrapper pages, Google now returns close to 3,000 matches (all copies of Wikipedia content). Serbophobia was also nominated for deletion etc, but nobody deleted it. Bosniakophobia should also NOT be deleted. Bosniak 07:16, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Bosniak, one illegitimate article doesn't warrant another. I agree, the Serbophobia and Croatophobia are both dubious articles, just as is Bosniakophobia, Anti-Bosniak sentiment and other such made-up, politically motivated articles. Drop the whole nationalist blame-game and spend your time on something constructive instead!Regards Osli73 12:42, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Kosovar (the User)

PaxEquilibrium, you wrote a message in my talk page. I wrote a short message back below your message. I also send you some greetings in the Talk:Kosovo page. Take care and I hope I am not taking too much of your time. Yours, Kosovar 19:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue IX - November 2006

The November 2006 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 22:59, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Afrika paprika

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I've blocked both IPs. You're welcome to file a request for checkuer if you'd like, otherwise, no further action is necessary. —Pilotguy (push to talk) 21:11, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed your report from WP:PAIN - not because it wasn't personal attacks, but because someone got to the IP address and blocked it already :) Shell ^babelfish 16:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

You too?

Eh, you left too? I tried to leave, but I am too notorious wikiholic (as Duja said), and since I do not have job, the ways to spend my free time would be too limited without Wikipedia. :) I hope you will come back too. PANONIAN (talk) 02:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't wish talking to people with mental illusions

TThis includes you, a war criminal defending editor and denier of serb beast crimes.

I don't know wether user Duja has mobilized serb nationalist for this ridiculous vote, or if these supposedly non-serbian voters actually are serbs hiding behind wikipedia accounts. No matter what, you are all voting for the removal of a page listing devilish people - and in doing so you do not less than support them! Some call this page POV just because it lists? It's unbelievable - well it wasn't me or any other editor that killed the children or women which earned the criminals a place on the list of serb criminals. Becasue of your scandalous denial and the belief that commited war crimes should be hidden away and forgotten, your deeds will be answered with consequences. I'm sure these consequences allready are present in your lifes to an extent - how can anyone who votes for denial feel good inside their damaged souls? But like I said time will catch up with anyone who does so. Truth always prevails and those who work against it will regret it deeply with time. The moral equivalence that wikipedia's extremely amateuristic writers are trying to follow is horrible, being neutral does not apply when it comes to choosing between the evil and good side, anyone who thinks so automatically has chosen the evil side. Being equivalent in the Bosnian "war" (aggression!), is like being neutral and equivalent to the Holocaust of Jews. We are talking about peaceful human beings killed by humans possesed by evil forces - and you are neutral?, well keep on dreaming..neutral is the last thing you are. I and every peace loving man or women whish you no good, for people like you are the reason of war and misery, sorry but that is the truth - it's an evil path you have choosen for yourselves. My suggestion to you is to try to save yourselves before it is to late and you will regret all your bad acts. (This will probably be removed sooner than I wrote it, obviously another example of denial and injustice) Ancient Land of Bosoni

POV?

"This is an incomplete list of people, with Serb ethnicity, who have been accused of war crimes and attrocities commited during sgovernmental military campaigns, mainly carried out in Bosnia between 1992-1995, on civilian Bosniaks and warprisoners of both Croat and Bosniak ethnicity." No where does it say that every Serbian is a war criminal. It points out those who are currently hiding, being tried, or have been sentenced. How is it POV? Greetings, Vseferović 21:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

That statement was not there when this subject was introduced to me. I do not agree with that statement, however, now there is nothing wrong with the artilce. It is as neutral as it can be. Thanks, Vseferović 21:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course the other two articles will show up. However as far as I can see there are only a few Bosnian Muslim leaders indicted of those 2-3 were jailed, the rest let go. This is according to the articles List of ICTY Former Yugoslavia War criminals. (Bosniaks have done some attocities, but ona a much lower scale, look at the Serbian attack on Srebrenica for example) Thank you, Vseferović 21:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Response

I understand, however, I did not make the list. We may have to remove some people and add others if the article is kept. And yes, we have to define a war criminal. To answer your question, Draza Mihajlovic, in my opinion, is a war criminal considering that in every school in Yugoslavia students learned that he was a criminal. He was fascist and fascists are not welcomed in this world. If you would like you can play "Devil's advocate" and say “why the fascist ideology would be bad?” Well, today's society defines it is a bad ideology. (I thought you were for the SFRJ ideologies and nation) Thanks, Vseferović 22:53, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

He was a Cetnik leader, which automatically defines him as fascist. They were the ones who hand in hand fought with the Germans during the Second World War, meaning they agreed with the Nazi ideas. They carried out many missions for the Nazi's during WWII. He was tried by the OZNA and the SFRJ.

The English article has a lot of POV, but these to sentences provided some interesting detail overlooked by the English article:

• Sa svojim trupama se na početku borio protiv Njemačkog okupatora, dok je kasnije četnički pokret počeo otvoreno surađivati sa okupatorom u borbi protiv jugoslovenskih partizana. Odsjek zaštite Naroda (OZNA), 12. marta 1946, uhapsio je Dražu Mihajlovića.

Thanks, Vseferović 01:11, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Protection

You're welcome. If you ever want your page unprotected, just let me know. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Your recent edits

You made this edit on User:Factanista. Please review WP:SOCK and do not make further such edits. You need to file a checkuser request to confirm if the user is indeed a sockpuppet; otherwise such edits can be considered as disruption. Regards, — Nearly Headless Nick ^{L} 06:14, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Odgovor

I find it interesting that you changed your opinion considering that you seem to be one of the users for SFRJ. However, it seems that now you are defending Cetnik ideoloy. I do not understand your viewpoint. Nothing good can come out of the Cetniks and the Ustase unless one supports the nationalism in those countries. A true Yugoslavian actually detests the work of Draza Mihajlovic. I mean he was a Cetnik and worked against Yugo. That is enough for me, since no one unless they are Cetnik or Ustase, can they say that Yugo was a horrible country. It is actually positive that Tito removed their freedom. Thanks, Vseferović 22:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Personal Information

For posting personally idenitifying information [7], I have indfefinitely blocked you from editing. An indefinite block need not mean you will not be unblocked. But There is no excuse for posting personally identifying information anywhere on Wikipedia, without that person's consent. Should I find this to be the case, I will remove your block and apologize.--MONGO 19:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I must say I have no idea what you're talking about. What personal information? When, why? What are you talking about? No apology needed - just let me see if you had any reason to ban me in the first place. ;) --PaxEquilibrium 20:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

One of the funniest things is that I do not know personal information of any User whatsoever. :) --PaxEquilibrium 20:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Searching around, it seems that I posted around personal information about a user called Pschemp. This is very, very weird to me - I've seen the talk page of him/her right several seconds ago for the first time in my life - and have never met him/her ever before. I really do not understand... --PaxEquilibrium 21:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Come on, own up, apoligize and say you'll never do it again (assuming you did not do it and unless this was a tactic to get a permablock so that you can retire :p).--Euthymios 21:11, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Read below. :) --PaxEquilibrium 21:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

LOL, sorry about that. BTW if you haven't left WP then why don't you revert your userpage?--Euthymios 21:28, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

To make a long story short, there was odd sequence of events involving Wikipedia:Oversight which led to the block, which I have now removed. I apologize for the inconvenience. Best, Mackensen (talk) 21:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I am blocked again. --PaxEquilibrium 11:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, it very much does appear that way. I hope you don't have to go through anymore of that! semper fi — Moe 21:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

My guess as to what happened

At 12:54 (UTC) today, you made an edit to WP:ANI, which added to the bottom of the page a notice of Pschemp's alleged real name and contact details in a special box. Immediately under it, you added the following:

== Afrika paprika == [[Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of Afrika paprika]]. All self-confirmed and evident. He has been banned - but that ban gave no effect as he kept returning for all these weeks (months?). --[[User:PaxEquilibrium|PaxEquilibrium]] 12:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The next edit, at 12:56, was from User:BusterD, and carried the edit summary:

(→User:Jaakko Sivonen - deleted user info)

I didn't see it at the time, but saw MONGO's note to Pschemp, just before I went to dinner. I looked at the diff, and saw that the personal info had been deleted in the very next edit. I sent an e-mail to the oversight mailing list from this page — the best way to do it, as it gets the entry permanently removed without drawing extra attention to it first. I did wonder if PaxEquilibrium might be innocent. The user who has been posting that info in the last few days normally put it in the edit summary as well, and used IPs or newly-created accounts. I wondered if PaxEquilibrium had copied that info, and then accidentally pasted it into a genuine post, or if the software bug which sometimes causes an old edit to be reinstated when a new edit is made had struck again (which would mean that that info had been posted and then reverted in previous edits to the noticeboard shortly before PaxEquilibrium made his post.

I was going to post to the noticeboard after dinner, suggesting that PaxEquilibrium might be innocent and a glitch in the system might be responsible. However, when I got back to my computer, I found that the info had been oversighted, and Mackensen had unblocked PaxEquilibrium. I endorse the unblocking (though I also endorse the original blocking, as that's an emergency security measure that we take while investigating the posting of personal information).

Since PaxEquilibrium's post has been oversighted, the next post looks as if BusterD posted the good part of PaxEquilibrium's post, whereas in fact he really removed the bad part.

Hope that makes things clear. AnnH ♫ 21:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I was blocked by an autoblock by MONGO. Could someone please lift the autoblock? --PaxEquilibrium 11:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be lifted now. Sarah Ewart 11:20, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm the accidental culprit in this. I apologize to anyone affected by my poorly worded communication to MONGO. I had sent a personal email and associated diff which looked strange to MONGO because of the database blanking removing the vandal's tracks. My intention was ask MONGO to offer an administrator's view of the database blanking, which related to a bad vandal I had warned and then was really quickly squashed by an admin. I had no argument with that appropriate action and didn't want to raise any chat on a public talk because I didn't understand the action.

My curiosity about how admin tools work and my poor communication skills were the contributing factors, and I sincerely am sorry for any inconveniences I was involved in causing. BusterD 15:30, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Until reading on this talk page about the terrible mess I caused I was unaware of this page and now know where to turn when I see activity of such a damaging kind. WP Admins were all over this situation in minutes. I had been innocently reading my watchlist, saw the inappropriate posting, and made what I judged the correct change, then warned the user. Before I could report the activity, virtually all database records of this incidents were deleted from my user view. I saw my contributions wiped off, and sensed this was how the pedia dealt with those risks, and then used a back channel to ask an admin I trust for perspective. MONGO misinterpreted my email as a notification and call to action, and MONGO wasted no time protecting the community. That's my first-hand view of what happened. BusterD 15:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Montenegrin Demographic data

Why did you delete my entry? I have put source, but you still delete it. Can you explain this? Please check history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demographic_history_of_Montenegro&action=history -Ego and his own 14:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Did you notice my entry in Source section: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Demographic_history_of_Montenegro&diff=89608035&oldid=87219276 -Ego and his own 15:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You are working here as POV pusher, as you didn't use same rule to other parts of article. This document show that ethnicity of people that lived in Montenegro at that time are called Montenegrin and document author is ruler of Montenegro at that time, if that is not official I really don't know what it is. You have there the source section and all data that you need to find it. It is printed in Belgrade, Published by CID Podgorica 1999. year -"Acts collection of Petar I Petrovic" -Ego and his own 15:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Statement by the Ruler of Montenegro that in Montenegro lives Montenegrin people is not demographic data? And the statement that in Montenegro lives Serbs are Demographic data? Can you explain this? Also explain where are sources in that form and details that you have asked for other statements on this page? -Ego and his own 16:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is that reference about that? Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics -Ego and his own 17:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Button

Oh, no, you didn't do anything bad, I understand that I had forgotton to complete a page move for over 20 minutes and had broken the other half of the joke, I understand your motive :) semper fi — Moe 17:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: COC

The Church was manned by World War II Nazies... and the sole reason of its existence was to wholesomely assimilate an ethnic group... mostly dealt with forceful subjection. --PaxEquilibrium 15:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So write it like that. With this - I agree. Plantago 15:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

POV article

PaxEquilibrium, I see that you have retired but as you have previously been active on some Balkan-related articles so I though I would ask for your time on the Srebrenica massacre article. While no one is disputing the the massacre as such, the numbers killed or that it was a case of Genocide, some of the Bosniak editors are very adamant about using wording, choice of text and sources which provide a very POV article. Attempts to NPOV the article/text (always referenced and explained on the Talk page) are met with quite a bit of aggressiveness. As I'm presently the only non-Bosniak editor active on the article it's an uphill struggle. Your presence would be much appreciated.KarlXII 13:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Pax, sorry if I was unclear above. I invited you to the Srebrenica massacre page to act as a second opinion on the ongoing discussions there. Right now it is very polarized and I'd like some fresh editors to the article to maybe calm things down.KarlXII 12:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Archont Petar

Can you please repeat all that at Talk:Archont Petar? :) Also add some paragraph breaks to help readability. --Joy [shallot] 00:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Good morning Pax (or maybe it's evening or afternoon where you are, but whatever). How come you put a "welcome" template on my talk page? I've been an editor for ages, and got a welcome message ages ago. But still, it is nice to meet a good editor such as youself. Keep up the good work. Bye. - Ivan K 01:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Re:Critics

Yes, you have a very good point. I'm am truely sorry for what I have done but I just hate it when people act so stupid and don't know anything on the subject, and yet, they contribute to it anyway by putting their false information on it.

I sort of disagree with you about my Montenegrin. I truely do understand it and know how to write it, but I am writing in non-stop English that I am forgetting some words and how to phrase out the words.

Yes, I do have pride in my Montenegrindom, but my actions have led me to downgrade that pride on wikipedia. From now on, I am neutral on many matters. If I know about a topic and write about it, I want people to agree me, not to go against me.

Also, I am terribly sorry for critisizing you for being a "Serb nationalist and using too many pro-Serb sources" when I know you try to stay neutral. I just had this bad hunch that you may be at it "again" while reviewing the talk page on the Duklja article.

You and anyone else may critisize me all you want and I will stop critizising you and any other person. And yes, I can get pissed off very easily at times, but I let it go until I really get ticked when the person who is pissing me off does it constantly.

Well, I see that you're making great hunches on these sockpuppets, though I wouldn't want to go too far with this. Well, anyways, I just wanted to clear things. Thanks again. Bye. --Crna Gora 02:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Jezici

Hrvatski je skoro uveden kao službeni u Vojvodini (pre nekih 5-6 godina koliko se sećam), a dotle je bilo samo 5 službenih jezika. Bivši srpsko-hrvatski je oko 1990 jednostavno preimenovan u srpski, a hrvatski je desetak godina kasnije uveden kao nov službeni jezik. Što se tiče ustava, Vojvodina je između 1974 i 1990 imala ustav, predsednika, ministarstva, itd, odnosno imala je sve što i tadašnje republike, samo se nije zvala republikom već pokrajinom, a tada je bilo 5 službenih jezika, dakle umesto sadašnjeg srpskog i hrvatskog bio je srpsko-hrvatski. E sad, možda bih o periodu 1974-1990 i mogao nešto napisati u članku Politics of Vojvodina, ali pošto sam sada zauzet drugim stvarima, to će morati da sačeka da nađem više vremena. PANONIAN (talk) 03:46, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Nisam imao vremena da ti ranije odgovorim, ali što se službenih jezika tiče, partizani jesu koristili proglase na raznim jezicima, ali Vojvodina nije zvanično formirana pre 1945, pa se o njenim službenim jezicima i ne može govoriti pre 1945. E sad, da li su svih 5 jezika postali službeni baš 1945 ili je neki dodat tek kasnije, to ne znam. Za ustav Srbije iz 1990 znam šta je pisao o jeziku, ali službeni jezici Vojvodine bili su definisani statutom Vojvodine a ne ustavom Srbije. PANONIAN (talk) 22:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Rudjer Boskovic

I see I maybe got tangled into things I shouldn't have meddled with. You see, I was always taught that Rudjer Boskovic was a Serb, but I realize that he is considered a Croat. I apologize for complicating things, I was only writing what I thought was right. I won't edit that article anymore... --GOD OF JUSTICE 21:00, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Rudjer Boscovich had a Croatian father and Italian mother. He was born in Croatia. That would make him Croatian and part Italian. He has no blood or birth link to Serbia. Just Serb propaganda.

God Speed Jagoda 1 22:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

He had no blood or birth link to Serbia... well, except his father's humongous interest in Serbia and the its Churches and Monasteries... He wasn't born in Croatia - he was born in Ragusa. As for who his father really was - he indeed converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism (perhaps), but we all today learn that he was Croat - and so that should it be. The minor less significant Serbian claim should also be mentioned, but only as such. --PaxEquilibrium 21:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Are people born in Monaco called French???? Paxi, people of Ragusa were Croats just like you have French in Monaco. Religion and interests is not a factor in someones origin. His father could well have been a Bosniak. I too love the pyramids does that make me Egyptian? Does your love of the Dalmatian dog make you Croatian?

Rudjer Boscovich. He was known as Croat-Italian.

Nobody can change that fact as we know it and have always known it.

Ivo Andric also loved the Serbian culture etc... but his origin was Croatian. It's called respect. Croats and Serbs have always found eachother interesting. Now to get onto your band wagon..Tesla was a Vlach by origin but some say Serb..in the end he said he was Serb and that's what we should write.

This topic has no end..and to tell ya the truth it's areal sick topic. We all know the truth yet someone wants to keep bending it into some SerbPov. Jagoda 1 04:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

007

////007 u Crnoj Gori. Cujem prvi put ali vidim da se spomije ...trebamo vidit film. 007 in Montenegro.

Jagoda 1 00:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Nisam to znao da je Bond poceo karijeru u Crnoj Gori. Drago mi je to znati sad jer ja volim te filmove ali nisam gledao sve (ima ih dosta, preko 20 haha). Znam da se pricalo da se taj James Bond "based on some true to life Serbian secret agent." Neznam jeli taj Srbin bio za KGB ili nesto drugo..

Kako mogu dati zvezdu User "God of Justice"...zaboravio sam.

God Speed

Jagoda 1 22:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Mislio sam i tebi dati jednu zvezdu ali sam je povuko/obrisao. Vidim da tvoj User page nema vise nista jer mozda ti tako volis. Znam da si imao prije dosta tih zvezda. Popov je Bond ..izgleda tako, veruj meni bice i film jednog dana o tom Popovu, mora biti. Cuo sam da ce biti film od Josipu Brozu - Titi, Stallone i De Nero radu dva razlicita filma od njemu. Volio Titu ili ne, covek nije bio tolko los, Tito se borio protiv nacifasisma i moze se slobodno reci on je donekle i zaustavio to u Evropi. Svak ima dobru i slabu stranu ali to je Titina dobra strana.

Opet makedonski pisi kad tolko dobro razumes i znas hahahaa Jagoda 1 00:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

CG Wiki

I've started up a CG Wiki at cgwiki.elwiki.com (it'll become a seperate website once it gets 10 articles, and it's for free). If you would like, you can join it (you can become a bureaucrat and a SysOp), though I will need extreeeeeeme heeeeeeeeelp!!!!!!!. And, it's written in the Montenegrin language as intended. Think about it and if yes, come join and help out. Please, just do follow the rules of the Montenegrin language on the wiki when contributing. Bye. --Crna Gora 04:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Call him Pixie

Tvoje novo ime je PIXIE Jagoda 1 04:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Napiso sam ti nesto na User:Crna Gora i User:God of Justice. Pogledaj njihov Talk. Jagoda 1 04:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Your User page

Your User page is already unprotected. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

?

Pixie, Cuo sam negde prije kad si bio User:HRE da ti nisi pravi Srbin (po krvi). Ja sam mislio da su tvoji roditelji poreklom pola Srbi pola Hrvati ali zive u Srbiji. Prvi put cujem da nisi ni jedno ni drugo, nego nesto trece. Izvini ali odakle su tvoji roditelji? Volio bi to znati. Moji su iz Perast/Tivat Montenegro (yes you were right about EG M and me). Govori se da smo Hrvati iz Bosne dosli u Boku preko 500 godina. Obo dvoje su Catolici ali nije to bas 100% da smo Hrvati. Neki drugi govore da smo mi pravi Crnogorci naselili Boku. Moguce je da smo promenili veru kad smo dosli u Boku itd... A i prica ima da smo dosli sa Slavenima na Balkan u 7 stoljece i bili izmedu prvima na Jadranu. Kome verovati, i ko zna 100%? Jos jedno u Australiji sam ucio jezik u Hrvatskoj skoli jer ovde nema bas puno Crno Goraca i Srba. Pa eto mesam jedno i drugo kad pisem.

U vezi Tesle...to je stara vest..pa covek je 100% Vlach..znam da je imao Orthodox veru ali milsim da su njegovi tu veru preuzeli nekoloko generacija prije njega. AAaa ko zna to 100%. Znam da je Tesla sam govorio da je Vlach u nekim tekstima, on je znao to. Ali bio je Srbin na kraju i tako se zna po svetu. Ta istorija je glupa stvar ako idemo tolko back in time svi smo isti iz Afrike hahaha. Na Wiki je pre pisalo da je Vlach i ja sam pitao da se stavi jer se to zna o njemu, ali isto tako da se rece da je Srbin u njegov lifetime. Ancestry je druga prica to je Vlach , a sto je on, to je 100% Srbin. Razumes... Jagoda 1 22:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Pa cito sam prije u knjigama - nema nesto na web o tome a i nismam nikad ni trazio. Yuga je mesana - niko nezna odakle su celi narod bivse Yuge. Biraj Iran, Persia, Russia, Poland...ko zna???? Sve su neke verzije ali nista nije sigurno. Trebao bi ti pronaci odakle su tvoji. Mozda si Madjar ili Rumun haha Njavaznije da te razumem...ti si nas.

Jagoda 1 21:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't retire. Wikipedia needs you!

Oi man, don't retire from editing. You're a great editor as you always engage in discussion, and you're always neutral and objective. Wikipedia needs good editors like yourself, to help counter fools like the one who just posted the above message. - King Ivan 07:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

His message just got removed, and also was removed on (I think) all pages he put it on. - King Ivan 08:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

socks

Sorry about that -- after I changed to the checkuser template, I realized that the sockpuppet was not blocked. I have added the {{sockpuppetcheckuser}} template to all the IPs in the RFCU, should I change all of the IP socks to the more generic (unconfirmed) {{sockpuppet}} template? // Laughing Man 21:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I just found the appropriate template {{sockpuppetCheckuser-nb}} -- I'll go through all IPs when I get a chance and update to the appropriate template. // Laughing Man 21:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey

I've just noticed the barnstar... Thanks a lot! --FlavrSavr 00:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Obrisani članci

Članke Anti-Bosniak sentiment, Anti-Croatian sentiment i Serbophobia je obrisao Duja, pa moraš njega pitati zašto. Što se tiče novog nicka koji mi predlažeš, radije bih ostao pri starom, jer me svi znaju pod tim. :) PANONIAN (talk) 02:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Boka

Haven't heard of it before - I assume it centres around Hrvati from Boka? Do you have any information about it? Cheers, iruka 15:57, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Zanimljivo - ja sumnjam da Hrvati iz boke sampo hoce cuvati identitet, i tako i Srbi; a Srpski partije mislim vidim ovo kao orude da oslabi cvrstu ruku Crnoogorci nacionalisti ima na zemlu? iruka 16:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It's easily explined

It is easily explained: when I log off I loose an IP I was occupying, than somebody else might log on with that same IP, and the other way round. I already told you, ther can be a big number of people using the same IP one at the time.
89.172.18.8 00:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Census data

"Have You got census data for the years '48, '61 & '81 for Vojvodina?"

Pa ima sve to u Demographic history of Vojvodina. PANONIAN (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Mislim da u tom članku imaš u spoljnim linkovima link do sajta sa rezultatima ostalih popisa. I kako konkretno misliš da uklopim članke o izborima? PANONIAN (talk) 02:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Izvini, zaboravio sam da ti odgovorim, pa vidim da su ti članci o izborima stavljeni u odgovarajuće kategorije, tako da je to dovoljno da neko može da ih pronađe. PANONIAN (talk) 03:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

.

So does this mean you're not retired? I'll get around to the Stefan Nemanja article soon.--Hurricane Angel 10:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding vandalism on my talkpage

Hey Pax! How are you? Yes, someone has recentlly vandalized my talkpage. Lately some with different IP-adress has been harrasing me with some unbelivable accusations, that I'm a sockpuppet for KarlXII and Osli73 and that I'm a chetnik, I'm a serb, I'm hateful person and so on. Look for yourself: [8] [9] [10] [11]. This must be some really poor person who can't find rest in his life. If he was smart he could see for exampel that I have never edited on the Srebrenica massacre article for exampel. I've only spoken a few times with Osli73 and KarlXII since they are from Sweden. This vandalizer just won't get it but I won't start a discussion with him. I will never lower myself that far. I could guess that he is from Bosnia since he called my something with "pizdune" and I know that KarlXII and Osli73 have had some fights on the Srebrenica article. He could check that I have an IP-adress from Croatia and they an have IP-adresses from Sweden, but hey... Merry Christmass - Litany 23:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Please visit my userpage. Thank you. --Crna Gora 16:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey...

Milo je "on the run again" sa njegovima pričama. Što bi neko njega ubijo. Jednostavno grijeh... On kaže da je to planirano ali to je samo priča. Niko u BiH je toliko bitan da bi bio ubijen. Lol. Da li si vidio onu poruku? (prijevod moj). Pozdrav, Vseferović 22:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Highly unlikely that such a feat would occur. I mean what is there to gain. Another, maybe even "worse", candidate would rise and continue with the path. Looking at the facts there is no great gain from an assassination. I do not see how the outside world could gain anything. It is a pure farce in which the common man is brought into. The only thing that I dislike in Dodik is his exaggerated belief in RS separation. It is impossible for it to occur, considering that every party in BiH needs the other, otherwise there would be no corruption! They all rely on each other. It is sad. The only "multi-ethnical" party that is trying to rise (but is getting opposition from all ‘’’three sides’’’) is the SzBiH (Stranka za BiH). Those people are trying to unite BiH. Thanks, Vseferović 22:53, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue X - December 2006

The December 2006 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 23:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

My editor review of YOU

I apologize if I was too harsh, but I think someone opening themselves up for review by posting at editor review wants that, and I don't think I was more harsh on you than other editors I have reviewed, so please, do not take it personally. Thanks for the explanation why your user talk is so high. And though policy is policy, citing and quoting it isn't perhaps always the best way to handle situations. Even the policy tag at the top say there may be exceptions, and some users may not fully understand them or may have never read them and some can be quite difficult to understand how the application of them can go. Dealing with controversial topics should always require someone who is willing to explain softly, no matter how many times or to whom. I think everyone could take a lesson from that. Again, I hope you do stick around for Wikipedia's sake and even if you do take a break, you return. --MECU≈talk 21:34, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

re: !

I don't know what to do anymore. Maybe add part of the "controversey" section back, but in a smaller paragraph, something like this maybe:

"Boscovich is widely believed to have been half Croat due to certain observations, such as his father's birthplace of Orahov Do, and evidence in which he affirms his connections with his Croatian identity[10]. In writings to his sister Anica, he told her he had not forgotten the Croatian language.[11]. Also when he was in Vienna in 1757[12], he spotted Croatian soldiers going to the battlefields of the Seven Year's War, he immediately rode out to see them, wishing them 'Godspeed' in Croatian.[13]."

Maybe it could be put at the end of the "nationality" paragraph?

--Jesuislafete 21:44, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Re. Wikipedia:WikiProject Montenegro

Hi. Yes, I've been quite inactive in mainspace editing lately, not just Montenegrin topics. However, I created this (still unfinished) table of Montenegrin municipalities here, and I've also started the table of international recognition of Montenegro here under my previous account. Gotta get back to work soon, thanks for the reminder. Regards,--Húsönd 13:54, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Moral

"This user is a war refugee, utopian, globalist, internationalist, idealist, anti-nationalist and cosmopolitan" and gone. It's funny. Utopian, globalist, internationalist, idealist, anti-nationalist cosmopolitism is incompatible with reality. -Ashley Pomeroy 20:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, (but in English)

Hvala ti mnogo. Normalno i tebi ako ga slavis. The admin team is asking me to write only in English if I want to become an administrator. I tried to become one, but they said I needed more edits. So, I withdrew my application, considering that many votes opposing votes were coming from administrators. Pozdrav, Vseferović 18:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey man

Happy new year to you too! Yes, I heard about that, it is good news. I think it is rather a shame that all of the rest of the ex-YU states cannot enter at the same time :( - Francis Tyers · 23:54, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think you can be that much worse than Romania and Bulgaria :) - Francis Tyers · 10:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

wikiproject

As a member of WikiProject Serbia, you should be aware that the project as well as Portal:Serbia is being considered for deletion. If you have the time, please comment on what you feel should be done with the project and the portal. Thank you. // Laughing Man 01:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

COPY/PASTE

HEY PIXIE, HOPE YOU DON'T MIND I USED YOUR GOOD-BYE TO WIKI MESSAGE..AS A BASE FOR MINE. GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS YA MY FRIENDJagoda 1 03:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Kubura

Could you please summate this request so that the presiding CheckUser will have a clearer idea as to it's basis? On behalf of Requests for CheckUser, ✎ Peter M Dodge ( Talk to Me • Neutrality Project ) 21:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Nenad Bjelica

Hi HRE, Checking the edit history, I realised you were the first person to add that this player is of Serbian ethnicity. I believe that Bjelica is generally a Serbian surname but you provided no verifiable reference for this particular person's ethnic origin. As it has been removed several times, I would like to defuse any source of revert wars as much as possible. Regards, Asterion^talk 10:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

---

IF HE WAS SERB MAYBE HIS NAME WOULD BE BELICA ... BJELICA WOULD BE CROAT... CROATS SAY BJELI AND SERBS SAY BELI FOR WHITE ....

i THINK HE'S CROATIAN. Jagoda 1 03:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

---

E MOJ PIXIE,

STO JE PREZIME? 1/4 O COVEKA PO KRVI I MANJE. JEDNO PREZIME NE ZNACI TVOJA NACIJA I ODAKLE SI. SVAK PUT KAD SE NEKO ZENI NOVA KRV DOLAZI U TU FAMILIJU. AKO JE BJELICA SRPSKO PREZIME IPAK SE DANAS NALAZI U HRVATSKOJ I TOLIKO SE MISALO SA HRVATIMA DA SU ONI DANAS VISE HRVATI NEGO SRBI. TAJ NENAD BJELICA IMA JOS 3 DRUGA PREZIMNA U SADASNJOJ FAMILJI...MOZAD SU SVA TRI HRVATSKA. STO JE MAJKA NJEGOVA I STO JE BRE OD OCA MAJKA???

PRIJE NEGO NEKOG ZOVES SRBINA, PRIJE PITAJ KOJA SU DRUGA 3 PREZIMENA BILI U NJEGOVOJ FAMILJI. PO TOME SE MOZE NESTO RECI U VEZI COVEKA I ODAKLE JE POREKLU. NEZNAM PUNO O ISTORIJI NASEG NARAODA ALI MISLIM DA SU DOSTA SE IZMISALI I IMAH JEDNIH I DRUGIH SVUDA A DA NE GOVORIM U BOSNI. BOSNA JE CHORBA I TO GUSTA I VRUCA CORBA.

HRVATI GOVORE BJELI A SRBI BELI, TO TI JE CRVSTI DOKAZ DA JE BJELICA PREZIME POREKLU HRVATSKO I PISE SE NA HRVATSKOM. DA JE SRPSKO ONDA BI SE ZVAO BELICA. TO JE LOGIKA MOJ PIXIE.

IVANOVIC IMA PO SRBIJE PUNO ALI SU SVI HRVATI JEDNOM BILI, JER TO PREZIME JE CISTO HRVATSKO..ISTO TAKO JOVANOVIC PO HRVATSKOJ, TO JE SRPSKO POREKLU...IZMESALO SE TO.

PA JA SAM CRNOGORAC ..NEKI GOVORE DA SMO HRVATI POREKLU..A KO ZNA 100%

BILO BI BOLJE DA SMO SVI YUGOSLAV I DA NE POSTOJU SVE TE MALE NACIJE HAHAA.

ZA MENE PREZIMENA KOJA IMAJU IC NA KRAJU SU SVA SRPSKO-HRVATSKA ALISU SVE SAD MESANI PO DRUGIM NACIJAMA I TESKO JE RECI ODAKLE SU 100% (CRO OR SRB)..SAMO LOGIKA (BJEL - BEL)...SAD OVA PREZIMENA KAO BJELICA SU MOZDA IZ CESKE ILI TAKO NESTO A MOZDA IME JE POSTALO PO NEKOM NIKU. KO ZNA MOJ PIXIE////

Jagoda 1 21:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

PIXIE, NERAZUMEM TEBE PIXIE. STO BRE PRICAS? SVI SRBI KAZU BELO AND HRVATI BJELO/BIJELO. BIO SAM U YUGI DOSTA GODINA DA TO ZNAM 100%. DA IMA NEKIH DALMATINACA KOJI GOVORE BILI I NEKE DRUGE VERZIJE...ALI PRAVA REC JE BJELI PO HRVATSKOM A BELI PO SRPSKOM. HRVATI KORISTE SLOVO J VISE U RECI.

BEOGRAD = WHITE CITY.

NISMA SIGURAN OD ONO DRUGO STO PISES. JELI GOVORIS DA 20% NARODA U JEDNOJ I DRUGOJ DRZAVI SU MESAVINA ALI SE NEPRIZNAJE..PA TO ZNAM..PA U BOKI JE TO ISTINA, VERUJEM DA JE TO I PO DRUGIM MESTIMA PO YUGI.

AJDE BRE SAM ZNAS DA JE SRBIN JOVAN A HRVAT IVAN..PA TO SE UVEK ZNALO.. U MOJOJ CRNOJ GORI IVAN JE POPULARNO JER DOSTA DECE SU POREKLU BILI HRAVTI, ONI KOJI SU SE ZVALI JOVAN SU POREKLU BILI SRBI...PA TO SE ZNA.

ps JA VERUJEM DA JE SVE MESANO TOLIKO DA SE NIJEDAN NAROD BIVESE YUGE ISTICE KAO CIST. YUGA SE MESALA DOSTA ZADNJIH 500 GODINA.

Jagoda 1 02:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok Pixie, vidim to sto govoris. No problem. Nisam profesor tog jezika. Eto samo znam po onom sto sam vidio u zivotu i sto sam cito u knjigama.

Jos jedno. Moze se reci da svi Srbi za manje od 50 godina ce samo pisat i citat latinicu...cirilica je na "way out". Pa moji roditelji i dam danas tesko je citaju, a ja pogotovo jer sam roden u Australiji.

Pa ja sam ti reko 100 puta ja jesam Crno Gorac i govorim Crno Gorski. Mesam malo Dalmatinski ponekad jer u Australji vecina Jugevica jesu iz tog kraja pa iz nam ih dosta i pricam sa njim na naskin. Da sam Srbin haha pa sto nisu Crno Gorci svi Srbi po tvome..haha Nema veze sto sam ..nigde ne pise sto sam..samo pise da sam Slavic a to je otvoreno pitanje o sto sam ja.

Ivan je Hrvatsko a Jovan Srpsko.

Jagoda 1 21:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC) PIXIE,.. PA NISAM NIKAD REKO DA SAM HRVAT NEGO DAS SU MOJI MOZDA POREKLU HRVATI JER SA OBE STRANE FAMILJE MI SMO KATOLICI I IZ 2 MESTA U BOKI U KOJIMA SU BILI VECINA TAKO ZVANI HRVATI...I TO UVEK SMO KATOLICI BILI PO VERI.PA NEKI TO GOVORE STALNO U BOKI OD NAMA I U NEKE KNJIGE BAS PISE OD NASEM PREZIMENU KAO DA PREPADA HRVATSKOJ, JEDNE I DRUGE STRANE. NIJE CUDNO JER BOKA JE BILA JEDNOM DIO HRVATSKE PA RAZUMEM TO MISLJENJE O NAMA.

DANAS JA SAM CRNO GORSKI AUSTRALAC, MOJI SU IZ CRNE GORE POREKLU. JA NEMA BAS NEKE VEZE SA HRVATSKOM ALI ME INTERESIRA NJIHOV NAROD. I RAZUM ZASTO IMAJU NEKU MRZNJU ZA SRBE. ETO TAKO VISE SIMPATISEM HRVATE, BLIZI SU MENI ..PA I ZNAM IH DOSTA U AUSTRALIJI KAO DOBRI LJUDI.

NEPRIZNAJEM IME IVAN KAO SRPSKO..SAM CES VIDITI AKO JE SRBIN IVAN MOGUCE JE DA IMA NEKOG HRVATA U FAMILJI POREKLU..VECINA ...NE SVI..SIGURNO NEKI I VOLE TO IME.. U VEZI JOVAN MOZDA SI UPRAVU.

ZIVIO MOJ PIXIE

Jagoda 1 02:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

LPD

Thanks for the information on LPD. Cheers :) iruka 17:00, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Montewiki

OK,we can try making something out of that site, but my idea was a request for official version of Wiki. The only problem is, as I stated before, lack of people willing to put in some time and effort into that project. We have enough Montenegrins here to win a vote, but most of them are inactive or hardly active at all. Hopefully,it is going to work out somehow, even though things don't look that great at the moment. Thanks for the support, by the way... Cheers. Sideshow Bob 20:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Earth

I am from planet Earth.:)--Bendeguz 22:05, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

HELP

Pixie, Na Australian Wikipedians..nemam pojma ko me stavio tamo, ja nisam . Ali Pise jagoda user i talk niko drugi nema talk na toj listi

jeli mozes popravit ti gresku za mene ili izbrisi me iz tog. treba da samo pise moje ime a ne usertalk page isto

a ko nije tesko brisi jedno i drugo

Hvala Jagoda 1 02:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

PIXIE,

PRVO.. PA NEZNAM ZASTO PISE MOJE IME DVA PUTA...DRUGI IMAJU SAMO JEDAN PUT. NEKO JE NAPRAVIO GRESKU. POGLEDAJ PA MI JAVI ..TI ZNAS VISE O TOME..JA NEMAM POJMA KAO SE TO FIXI. TREBA IZBRISAT USER TALK JAGODA1.

DRUGO... U VEZI BOKI. NISAM 100%SUGURAN KAD JE TO BILO ALI SAM CUO DA JE BILA DIJO VENECIJE U ISTO VREME KAD JE DALMACIJA..PO TOME NAROD JE BIO POZNAT KAO VENETIAN CROATS A NE SRBIAN OR MN. U TO VREME KNJIGE PISU O HRAVTIMA U BOKI. PA TOME ZNAM O MOJOJ FAMILJI JER SMO BILI U MORNARICI U BOKI, I PRICA SE O HRVATIMA KOJI SU SLUZILI TU. TE NEKE TRADICIJE I CISTO PISE DA SU BILI HRVATI.

SAD RAZUMEM DA TI JE OVO KRIVO JER SI TI MOZDA CITO NEKU DRUGU VERZIJU. JA SAMO IDEM NA ONO STO LOCAL NAROD KAZE. PRICE I ONO STO PISE U KNJIGAMA. RAZUMEM DA TO IMAS NEKO DRUGO MISLJENJE NA TO. NO PROBLEM.

VREME NEGDE PRIJE WW1..SAD KAD NISAM SIGURAN..ONO VREME PRIJE. NIJE NI SAMO JEDAN PUT..CUO SAM DA JE BOKA SKORO BILA DIO DALMACIJE NAKON WW2 ALI TITO NIJE DAO. MODA JER U TO VREME NIJE BAS BILO HRVATA VECINA KAO PRE WW1.

BAS ME BRIGA OD TOME. BOKA JE SAD CRNOGORSKA ..NICIJA DRUGA ..JEL TAKO? NEKO NA WIKI MI JE REKO DA SU HRVATI ISELILI BOKU 1911 U MASI.

ps MOLIM NAPRAVI MI ONO PRVO PITANJE...TI ZNAS O TOME VISE.

Jagoda 1 21:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

ok Pixie, ima mnogo verzija istorije Boke depending ko je pise. Izgleda da ja i ti citamo nesto totalno drugce. Bokelji su poznati kao Hrvati ali negde sam cito da neko kaze da su to bili Srbi...pa neznam ni ja koga verovati. Nebi reko da su to Ustaske price, mnogo ljudi se osjecaju poreklom Hrvati iz Boke ili se osjecaju samo Bokelji kao nacija. Pa pre smo pricali o ovom..depending on the town..moji su iz Perast/Tivat to je totalno Katolicko i moguce Hrvatsko bilo..druga mesta me ne brigaju. Znam za to i sigurno nisu jedina dva u Boki Kotorskoj. Pa User Panonian je sam to prizno. Mesano je ali se posle 1911 manje i mnaje Hrvate nalaze tu i pogotovo posle 1991. On je pokazo neki graf.

Ej jesi vido sa onu gresku..Please fix if you can.

Jagoda 1 02:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

stop your shit!

Stop writing bullshit on my talk page! Spread your spam and gossip somewhere else. I don’t know in what kind of mental state you are and what kind of drugs you take before opening my talk page and I frankly don’t care what you think or what you do. But I guess you must have the most boring life in this earth, since you don’t have nothing else to do, bur write such garbage every time you open my talk page. Get mature! --just a happy girl :) 10:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I said: STOP spreading your gossip and spam on my talk page. And don’t do so, like you don’t understand what I mean! Don’t stick your nose everywhere. If I would have any problem with Panonian or any other user here, I would solve them by my self. I don’t need your help. And you are personally attacking me; your comments are absolutely silly. Write your comments on my talk page, just if they have something to do with the articles of this encyclopedia. This is not a chat room! If you need someone to talk, or argue, there are a plenty of chat rooms in the internet. This is not the first time that you are spreading your gossip on my talk page, without anybody asking you anything. I don’t care about your personal opinion about my persona and I never did. I ignored your provocations until now. And I will ignore from now on any comment coming from your side. You are just someone who is trying to create conflicts between users in this encyclopedia. --just a happy girl :) 18:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard

Sorry, the debate has closed. --Doc^g 20:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

another sock?

PE, Just wanted you to be aware that another anonymous editor is exhibiting similar behavior (as well as same ISP). This could be a coincidence, but I believe since the articles he disrupts most frequently are sprotected, it is likely he will be moving to other articles. See 89.172.199.6, 89.172.201.73. // Laughing Man 21:09, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Education in Serbia

Pogledaj ovo kad budes imao vremena:Talk:Education in Serbia.

Andrija 23:29, 10 January 2007

Boka 1

During the Slavic migration in the sixth and seventh centuries, Croats settled along the Adriatic coast from Istia to Albania, regions as far north as the Drava River, as far west as Sulta, and as far east as the Drina. The oldest historical account from those times, written by a priest of Duclea (Pop Dukljanin), mentions Red Croatia, a region which included Boka. Red Croatia united with White (Western) Croatia into a single Croatian state as early as the middle of the tenth century.

By mid-twelfth century, the town of Kotor started to thrive as a maritime trade center, establishing ties with nearby Dubrovnik. The Catholic cathedral of St. Triphon (Sv. Trifun) dates back to 1166 and was built with the help of maritime traders. Many new towns were springing up along the shores of the sound. The town of Kotor continued to grow in size and influence, and it increasingly attracted various tradesmen like goldsmiths, blacksmiths, and tailors, among others. Kotor's ship building industry was also well known.

In 1371 Kotor came under the protection of the Croatian-Hungarian king, Ljudevit the Great. Ljudevit was the most powerful ruler of the Adriatic region at the time, forcing out Venice from the eastern side of the Adriatic region. After his death, Bosnian king Stjepan Tvrtko I. Kotormanic, who was of Croatian ethnicity, attempted to impose his rule on Kotor. He succeeded to gain only parts of the bay including the town of Kotor. However, his rule did not leave a lasting impact in the town or region. The Bosnian rulers are remembered mostly for founding the town of Herceg Novi on the western side of Boka. After Tvrtko's death in 1391, and until 1420, Kotor was, like Dubrovnik, an independent city-state.

The period of Venetian rule over Kotor and Boka started in 1420 and lasted, with a few interruptions, until 1797. It was a period of numerous wars and permanent insecurity on both land and the sea. By the end of the fifteenth century, Turks had conqured the lands of Boka's hinterland, including some lands on the north west side of Boka. For the ensuing 200 years, the sound was thus divided between the Venetians and the Turks. During that time, the population, power, and significance of Kotor decreased dramatically, turning Kotor into one of the most devastated and most pillaged cities in the bay. After the Austro-Venetian war against the Turkish Empire (1715-1718), Venice was able to expand its territories into Dalmatia even further. She took complete control over Boka sound once again, and her rule lasted until the fall of Venice in 1797.

On August 24th, 1798 a Croat from Lika, general Matija Rukavina, marched alongside Austrian troops into Kotor. Rukavina entered Kotor in the name of the Croatian-Hungarian king, convincing the Croats of Boka to accept the Habsburg rule.

In the midst of the Napoleonic wars, after the Austrian defeat at Austerlitz, Austria was forced to turn over Boka to the French. With the fall of Dubrovnik republic in 1808, Boka once again became territorially connected with the rest of Dalmatia.

In their six years of rule, the French introduced an array of innovations. The most important of these probably being democratization and the abolishment of all aristocratic privileges.

In 1807, the Croatian parliament (Sabor) again requested that Dalmatia, of which Boka was now a part of, must be reunited with Croatia and Slavonia. This request would constantly resurface until unification in the latter part of the century.

After the fall of Napoleon in 1813 and while awaiting the final peace settlement, two strong fractions had emerged in Boka. A union with Montenegro was supported by Orthodox villagers living in the hills above the sound who had settled there during Turkish rule. A numerically greater, pro-Austrian faction enjoyed support from predominantly Croatian Cathlic coastal cities. The final decision came at the all-important Vienna Congress of 1814, in which Austria was confirmed as the successor of all the territories of the Venetian and Dubrovnik republics. The Kingdom of Dalmatia was formed, with its capital in Zadar, and Boka became part of the Austrian state. The second Austrian rule was to last for 104 years, until 1918.

In the 1830's, the so called Illyrian Renewal, or the Croatian national revival movement, swept Boka as well. Long after the national homogenization of Boka's minority Serbs, Boka's Croats finally started to unite under their Croatian national identity. Croatian tricolors were displayed on all ships as well as in all of Boka's towns alongside the official Austrian flag.

At the assembly in 1861, it had been decided that all citizens of Boka, Croats and Serbs alike, unconditionally support the unification of Boka and all of Dalmatia with Croatia proper. Representatives of Boka in Dalmatia's Sabor at the time, three Croats and a Serb, and all members of the People's Party, supported unification with Croatia.

Responding to greater-Serbian tendencies, the People's Party gradually shifted its ideological orientation from South-Slavism to Croatianism in the 1870's when it became the majority party in Dalmatia's Sabor. The final break between the Croats and the Serbs came after the occupation of Bosnia-Hercegovina by the Austro-Hungarian empire in 1878. The Croats supported occupation because it reunited Bosnia-Hercegovinian Croats with the rest of the Croatian nation, while the Serbs vehemently opposed it, because it ran counter to greater-Serbian claims to Bosnia.

In the second half of the nineteenth century Boka experienced an economic revival. The number of affluent Croatian families increased quite dramatically. Also maritime trade regained much of its former glory by 1870.

Sharing the fate of the rest of Croatia, Boka became part of the Kingdom of Sebs, Croats, and Slovenes after World War I. Thus started the most difficult period in Boka's history - the period in which the greater-Serbian politicians would attempt, and largely succeed, to assume full control of one of Croatia's most beautiful regions.

POZOR! In 1910, Croatian Catholics made up 69% of the total population of the town of Kotor, 70% in Herceg Novi, and 95% in Tivat. In 1991, Croat share in the total population in the same towns was only 7%, 2%, 23% respectively.

Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Boka 2

An International Symposium "SOUTHEASTERN EUROPE 1918-1995"

Publisher: Croatian Heritage Foundation & Croatian Information Centre For the Publisher: Ante Beljo Expert Counsellor: Dr. sc. Dragutin Pavlicevic Editor: Aleksander Ravlic Graphic Design: Gorana Benic - Hudin Printed by: TARGA Copies Printed: 2000 ISBN 953-6525-05-4

IMPRESSUM

CONTENTS

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Prof. dr. Josip Pecaric member of Croatian Academy of Arts and Science; member the General Council of the Croatian Frater organization "Bokeljska mornarica 809" Tekstilno-tehnoloski fakultet, Pierottieva 6 10 000 Zagreb CROATIA

CROATS OF BOKA KOTORSKA FROM 1918 UNTIL TODAY

1. THE CURRENT STATUS OF CROATIANS IN BOKA KOTORSKA From the beginning of the Serbian aggression against Croatia in 1991 until today, the status of Croatians in Boka Kotorska has been characterized by various kinds of pressure. The most respected Croatian families in Tivat have received threatening letters in which the following, among other things, are written:

"If you do not leave on time, the night will swallow your children and family. Hurry to the summons of Mr. Tudjman to Croatia, because there are more Serbian centuries-old homes there than there are of you." (The letter was published by independent Montenegrin media.)

For this reason, Croatians of Boka have been moving to Croatia, while from Tivat alone, there have been over 300 Croatians (7 medical specialists among them) who have moved to Croatia. In effect, what has happened is a continuation, if not a completion, of the ethnic cleansing of Boka Kotorska since the existence of Yugoslavia. The census of 1910 (the last census carried out during the Austro-Hungarian Empire) and the census of 1991 (the last census in Yugoslavia) reveal that ethnic cleansing is truly in effect. The total population almost doubled from 33,400 in 1910 to 61,440 in 1991, while at the same time the number of Croatians has decreased three times (from 13,500 in 1910 to 4,910 in 1991.

However, only one part of the population emigrated. The other half was subjected to constant pressure to change nationality. This is why we have separated "Yugoslavians and others" in the tables presenting the national structure of Boka Kotorska and Montenegro. The reason is obvious: only Croatians in Montenegro had reasons to declare themselves as such in the census of 1991.

According to data of the Catholic Church of Boka, today there are approximately 12,000 Catholics. Thus, we have a paradoxical situation with more Catholic-Yugoslavians in Boka than Croatians.

The demographic picture of Boka Kotorska, however, has changed dramatically since 1991, not only because of the exodus of Croatians, but also because of the great influx of Serbians, namely, the Yugoslav Navy has made Boka its naval base and Serbians from eastern Herzegovina and Croatia have settled there - SERBIANIZATION is in full effect in Boka. It is not surprising that of the 1,000 refugees who departed from Croatia after "Oluja", 200 settled in Tivat. For this purpose, an initiative for a "census of empty houses" was set in motion by the Podgorica "Pobjeda" at the beginning of August so as to "take care of the people of "Krajina" in Montenegro". Thanks to the Montenegrin independent media, as well as the attitude of the municipal organizations of the Social Democratic Party and the Liberal Union, the attempt at the so-called "humane confiscation" of empty Croatian houses was somewhat thwarted but not completely stopped.

GRAF 1

Percentage of Croatian Catholics in the population of towns (1910.) and imunicipalities (1991) of Boka kotorska.

2. DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN BOKA FROM 1910 UNTIL 1991. When we say Boka Kotorska, we understand this to be the Boka Kotorska Bay. The coastal belt of Boka Kotorska-Budva-Spic was, however, in the Austro-Hungarian Empire administratively included into one district with its center in Kotor. The censuses carried out convey religious rather than ethnic affiliation. While it is clear that the Catholics are essentially Croatian people, it is difficult to distinguish the Montenegrin and Serbian people among the Orthodox inhabitants. It is not difficult to note certain regularities in the displacement of the population in 1910. The Orthodox majority in the entire district was the result of colonization in higher mountainous regions, as for example, the Boka Kotorska hinterland and the region of Pastrovici, in which the people of the Orthodox faith are practically the only inhabitants. They also make up the majority on the Lustica Peninsula and in the agricultural Grbalj parish. In larger towns, the Orthodox population in 1910 and earlier was only noted in Risan. The remaining town settlements : Kotor, Perast, Tivat, Dobrota, Prcanj, Herceg-Novi and Budva had a Catholic, that is, Croatian majority. Distinct Catholic regions were the Vrmac Peninsula in Boka Kotorska and the southern part of Spic from Sutomor to the border towards Montenegro. (see pict. 1)

We may justifiably calculate that the situation was similar at the time of the creation of the first Yugoslavia and from that moment, the influence of Greater Serbian politics was of crucial significance to the demographic changes in Boka. Graph 1 displays how this was reflected in the population censuses in the second Yugoslavia in the entire number of inhabitants and Graphs 2 and 3 in Montenegro in percentages.

GRAF 2

The national structure of Boka kotorska (1991).

The annexation of Boka to Montenegro did not follow until 1945 when federal units of the new Yugoslavia were established ( during the war the terms used were: Montenegro and Boka Kotorska, that is, Montenegrins and the people of Boka). The census of 1948 was characterized by great pressure on the population to declare themselves Montenegrin. There is, however, a characteristic fact seen in Graph 3 showing that the number of Serbians and Croatians in Montenegro was the same in 1948, while in 1991 there were 9 times more Serbians. Also, Graphs 1 and 3, show how the number of Croatians was reduced with respect to the population as a whole and in part in percentages.

3. GREATER SERBIAN POLITICS AND BOKA KOTORSKA Boka Kotorska was the first of all Croatian lands to be inflicted by Greater-Serbian politics. Objective and subjective reasons exist.

Objective reasons lie in the fact that Boka Kotorska is the most southern of all Croatian lands.

Subjective reasons lie in two great Serbian complexes.

1. The sea is a generally known Serbian complex. From the time of the Nemanjic Dynasty until today, whenever they were in a position to do so, Serbians have executed genocide upon the people who were obstacles to their access to the sea. 2. The Croatian cultural heritage is a Serbian complex which was best manifested in the war when they systematically destroyed all cultural monuments of the Croatian people. The symbol of this both here and in the world is Dubrovnik.

The culturocide, however, which is being carried out against the Croatian people holds one more component which may be seen in the attempt to usurp the cultural heritage of the Croats of Boka Kotorska, namely, it is the Boka Kotorska coastal settlements which were primarily inhabited by Croatians and which were the hub of maritime affairs. For centuries, this promoted strong development of the territory and the inhabitants were the bearers of a culture which attained an enviable level. This culture was particularly important to the Croatian people. Let us emphasize that the oldest Croatian Cathedral dating back to 1166, is St. Tripun’s Cathedral in Kotor or Our Lady of Skrpelja, the magnificent church, the shrine to the Holy Virgin erected on an artificial island across from Perast which was built by the inhabitants of that town. The church houses the life’s work of the greatest Croatian baroque painter who was born in Perast - Tripo Kokolja. Testimony to the greatness of the Croatian people’s heritage may found in official Montenegrin sources, which state that 40% of the republic’s immovable heritage and 66% of the republic’s movable heritage is located in Boka Kotorska. Clearly, one may conclude that today over 50% of Montenegro’s cultural wealth belongs to the Croatian people. More precisely, the Croatian people of Boka are heirs to this wealth.

GRAF 3

Nacional stucture in Montenegro (1991)

After his visit to the Catholic parishes in Boka and Montenegro, Monsignor Ratko Peric, the Bishop of the Mostar-Duvno and Trebinje-Mrkanj dioceses, said: "It takes more courage to be Croatian there than it does to be Catholic". In effect, his comment is indirectly talking about the goal of Greater Serbian politics in respect to the Serbian usurpation of the Croatian cultural heritage of Boka. Serbians need non-Croatian Catholics to ensure the painless seizure of the heritage which is primarily situated in Catholic churches. Eventually, with the completion of ethnic cleansing in Boka and the disappearance of Croatian Catholics, the Kotor Diocese would no longer be a part of the Church for Croatians. Yugoslav Catholics would rapidly become, first, Montenegrin Catholics and then Serbian Catholics. In other words, Montenegro would first swallow Boka and then Serbia would swallow Montenegro. Moreover, while Montenegrins are, for Croatians, those who are taking away their land and their cultural heritage (something which is truly being witnessed by our people), the reality is that Montenegrins are also victims of Greater Serbian politics. Namely, they are doing the dirty work for Serbians in the same way they were drawn into the attack on Dubrovnik with the same scenario. They are not aware that they are working against themselves because by unjustly claiming the so-called Nemanjici Bay, they are giving an added motive to their own Serbianization.

MAP

By taking over Boka, Greater-Serbian politics is working in three basic directions:

1. the elimination of national consciousness of Croatians in Boka; 2. memoricide upon the Croatian people as a whole, that is, erasing Boka and the Croatian people in Boka from the minds of Croatians in Croatia. 3. territorial separation of Boka from Croatia.

The elimination of national consciousness was first carried out by the so-called "Bokism" and then by " Yugoslavianism". In the previous century, Serbians spoke to Croatians in Boka about "togetherness:" We are all "Bokans" and nothing else", they would say. Then they proceeded to divide them into Serbians and Catholics! Thus, Croatians were denied their Croatianism, whereas Serbianism was not touched because their faith is Serbian! At that time they were successful, especially in the creation of the first and second Yugoslavias when some Croatians found salvation by declaring themselves to be "Bokan" (and later Yugoslav) rather than Serb or Montenegrin! But in both circumstances, the Serbians achieved what they had wanted: for the Croatians to cease to exist because, severed from their people, they are condemned to become that which the Serbs want them to become, condemned to give the Serbs the great cultural heritage of the Croatian people of Boka as dowry.

There are many examples that display how successfully memoricide was carried out upon the Croatian people as a whole with respect to Boka, the Croatian people and the great Croatian cultural heritage in Boka. The effect of this memoricide can still be felt in Croatia although I believe that many more people today know about Boka and its meaning to the Croatian people than they did several years ago. Three to four years ago, I was appalled by the fact that many Croatian politicians and cultural workers did not know that Boka Kotorska was the "Bay of Croatian Saints". Namely, of the six Croatian Saints and canons, three are from Boka (St. Leopold Bogdan Mandic, sainted Ozana of Kotor and sainted Gracija of Mula). The only Croatian Pope, Siksto V, is also from Boka. I was also appalled to discover that many Croatians of Boka did not know this either.

From the very beginning, the territorial separation of Boka from Croatia has been a major goal. This can be seen in the Vidovdan Constitution of 1921 in which the division of states into administrative regions was proposed. The division would be carried out by a parliamentary decision at the government’s suggestion. If this is not accomplished, a shortened legal procedure is predicted and should this not succeed the King would pass a statute in which the district of Boka Kotorska would fall under the Zeta administrative region. One can see how such crucial decisions were determined in advance and it is immediately clear that neither the first nor the second circumstance occurred, rather the third, which ensured the separation of Boka Kotorska from her mother country. In all future changes, including the Banovina (Ban’s dominion) of Croatia, Boka remained outside Croatian borders. When the HSS (Croatian Peasant Party) gained the most votes in seven Boka municipalities at the elections of 1939, Croatians in Boka expected that the Boka Kotorska Bay would enter the Banovina. Since the Cvetkovic-Macek Agreement did not define the borders, representatives of Boka Croats went to the HSS headquarters in Zagreb asking for the border to be on Trojica, behind Kotor. A correction of the border, however, was never accomplished due to the war and the arrangement of the first Yugoslavia.

Boka did not enter into the Independent State of Croatia in 1941. It was after the fall of Italy in 1943 when Boka formally entered into this structure, but it was, however, the German army which entered Boka rather than Croatian armed forces. In Boka, people believe that the reason for this was that Don Ivo Stijepcevic, a well-known Croatian historian, requested this. It is ironic that Don Ivo was imprisoned after the war by those whom he had aided by this act.

On the other hand, the "Boka " syndrome was in effect turning those Croatians in Boka into partisans. During the war, the term Montenegro and Boka Kotorska was used, whereas at the second meeting of "ZAVNOCG i Boka" (Territorial Anti-Fascist Council of the National Liberation for Montenegro and Boka), which took place on June 14, 1944, the name was changed to "CASNO" (Montenegrin Anti-Fascist Assembly for National Liberation). By the end of the year the term "and Boka" was erased from the title of the republic as well, although many organizations kept to the original name even several years after the war. This was clearly a simple consequence of the fact that Boka had been wrenched from its mother country. This enabled great pressure to be placed upon the Croatians of Boka. In this way, many well-respected Croatians in Boka were killed, among them priests: Don Ivo Brajnovic, Don Gracija Sablic and Don Djuro Perusina.

There were 17 Croatian culture clubs in Boka in the first Yugoslavia and the Croatians joined their mother country in joy (the thousandth anniversary of King Tomislav was celebrated magnificently in Boka and a stone plaque was placed on the Cathedral in Kotor commemorating the event) and in sorrow (a Boka navy unit took part in Stjepan Radic’s funeral). In the second Yugoslavia, however, all of this was destroyed in the two years following the war. In 1948, Croatians were faced with great pressure to declare themselves Montenegrin. Those among them who were in the Communist Party received party orders to do so. Not even three years had passed since the erasing of the term "and Boka". In those three years, many well-respected Croatians were imprisoned, with or without trial, and loss of employment was a standard occurrence.

This was usually accompanied by the label "clericalist". Pressure continued during the entire existence of the second Yugoslavia resulting in the demographic changes we have mentioned.

4. CROATIA AND BOKA KOTORSKA The confiscation of Croatian houses, threatening letters and a case of arson in Donja Lastva by Tivat (the owner of the house in question was a Croatian Dejan Brkan), have made the situation in Tivat very explosive. This was reported to the Minister of Internal Affairs by a delegation from the Liberal Union of Montenegro. It is clear why the Montenegrin opposition did this and why they are supporting Croatians in Boka: by fighting for the Croatians, they are fighting for themselves and for the independence of Montenegro and its European orientation. To the Croatians of Boka, its Serbianization means losing their homeland, but to the Montenegrins it is a battle TO BE OR NOT TO BE . They are fighting for the survival of their nation.

Unfortunately, the Montenegrin opposition is not powerful enough to significantly alter the situation. This is why the question of what the Croatian nation can do is extremely important.

Clearly, it is Croatia’s duty, according to its Constitution, to report on the current situation in Tivat and the entire Boka region to all relevant factors to the world. However, that is not enough.

In its political program, Croatia must begin with the fact that Boka Kotorska is one of Croatia’s most important interests. That this is truly so we may conclude from the following three facts:

1. The overwhelming Croatian cultural heritage in Boka. In fact, by destroying our heritage, the Serbs have raised the level of awareness of Croats with respect to the significance of their cultural heritage. 2. Boka is the Bay of Croatian Saints. Is it necessary, particularly now after the visit of the Holy Father to Zagreb, to emphasize what Catholicism and the Bay of Croatian Saints means to the Croatian people and the Croatian nation. 3. According to the Croatian Constitution, Croatia is obliged to take care of all Croatians outside Croatia, therefore the Croatians of Boka Kotorska.

Thus, because Boka Kotorska is one of Croatia’s significant interests, Croatia cannot accept that it be a part of a state such as today’s SR Yugoslavia - a state in which Croatians and other peoples are subjected to culturocide and genocide.

Naturally, the Croatian army will not cross Croatian borders (unless Croatia is attacked), regardless of the fact that demographic movements in Knin and Boka have been very similar in this century and that with the completion of ethnic cleansing in Boka, they would be entirely the same.

All these reasons show how it is of vital interest to Croatia that Montenegro become an independent state, as are the other republics of the former Yugoslavia. We are hopeful that Croatia will succeed in convincing its allies of this fact and that they will become more active in aiding the Montenegrin opposition in its battle for freedom and the independence of Montenegro. Montenegro, separated from Serbia, would surely turn towards Europe, and in this way Boka Kotorska, this Bay of Croatian Saints, would, together with Montenegro, be where it belongs - in Europe. European Montenegro is a guarantee for everything Croatian in Boka Kotorska and it is the Croatian part of Montenegro which is exactly the ticket to affiliation to the Western world. Today’s situation, i.e. Serbian Montenegro, represents the feeding of the Greater Serbian appetite and ensures the continuation of Greater Serbian politics, which alone is a constant threat to vital Croatian interests. Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Boka 3

Pixie, Pa dobro. Evo nesto sto sam cito na net. Vidim da se spominje Croatia i Boka u istom textu. Ima mnogo ovakivih artikla na net. Kako sam ti reko pre..depends who writes the stuff. Milsim da tvoj take je vise Serbian pov a moj vise sit on the fence type. Sve jedno ..Boka je sad dio Crne Gore a ne Srbije ni Hrvatske. Jagoda 1 22:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hvala za ono drugo

Boka 4

Pixie, Moji roditelji su takozvani Bokelji. Na Wikipedia pise da taj narod prepada Srbima. Od kad to? Prvi put cujem ovo. Kad vec pricas o gluposti i laz na net, pogledaj ovaj Wikipedia article na Bokelji pa reci meni ako nije ovo cisto Srb Pov. Ovo je neko editiro u laz i neku propagandu da Boka postane dio Srbije i Srpskog naroda. Otvoreno se govori da Bokelji imaju svoju tradiciju a ne Srpsku ni Hrvatsku. Ali ako se ikome pripada onda Bokelji su blizi Hrvatima ne samo po krvi nego po tradiciji jer Boka je naseljana sa Hrvatima najprije. Tako Hrvatska istorija kaze Red/White Croatia.

U vezi oprostaj, nema na cemu..nisam te nikad uvredio niti sam ovaj put. Logika ti sama kaze da sam ja upravu. Pa moji roditelji su ziva istina a ne neka Beogradska knjiga.

Budi fair Bokelji nisu bili Srbi. Sigurno da neki Srbi se mozda zovu to ali nisu aktualni Bokelji po tradiciji naseljenika.

Jagoda 1 02:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

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Wikipedia Quote: The Bokelj or Bokez (Бокељ, Бокез) people (pl. Бокељи, Bokelji, or Бокези, Bokezi) are the inhabitants of the Boka Kotorska (hence the name) and adjacent regions (near the towns of Kotor, Tivat, Herceg Novi, Risan, Perast). They're Serbs, Montenegrins and others. Most are Eastern Orthodox, while some are Roman Catholics who are claimed to be the autochthonous ancestors of Boka.

The Bokelj designation is regional. While a great part of Orthodox population and even some Catholics (conversion) originate from Montenegro, a part of the Roman Catholic population is ancestral and autochthonous; but they have kept the slava, a typical Serbian tradition.

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POV

Pixie, Quote You: "Let's trim the history: in the beginning of the 7th century, the Bay of Kotor was a part of the Byzantine Empire - but as soon as the Serbs & other Slavs came,"

This info is from a Serbian book. If the book was neutral it would list the other Slavs and perhaps include Croats who argue they came in equal numbers to Boka if not larger. Clear Serb POV.

Jagoda 1 02:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC) Need i go on?????

Jagoda 1 02:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

turci

A ima li veze kada su se mijesali -- 900 ili 1500? Ustvari, odkud ti znas da li su se mijesali ili da nisu? Ljudi ziveci jedni pored drugih, ako ne poduzmu koraka da se ne mijesaju, obicno se mijesaju. Pa nisu valjda svi Jevreji jednake boje koze! A da si vidio americke crnce, polovica kojih je od lividnih majstora sto nisu manje do silovali svoje ropkinje. Ono sto se cuva je jedro drustva, stavljajuci izvesan odpor asimilaciji i cuvajuci stroj. --VKokielov 18:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Ja znam razliku. Zasto se kacas na rijeci? Mi sad govorimo o slavenstvu - pa i da su Albanci ili Crnci, nisu potpuno Slaveni. --VKokielov 01:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Budva

Pa tehnički gledano, Budva i nije deo Boke. Budva je ranije bila pod istom upravom kao Boka, ali geografski nije deo Boke. PANONIAN (talk) 16:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

O kakvoj promenjenoj mapi Boke pričaš? Što se tiče Bunjevaca, u redu, vidim gde si našao taj naziv, što opet ne znači da taj naziv ima širu primenu u engleskom, a pogotovo nije dobro da u jednom istom članku koristimo oba naziva, i Bunjevac i Bunyev - to će totalno zbuniti čitaoce. PANONIAN (talk) 17:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Hm, pa ja ne znam da li su granice opštine Budva ranije bile drugačije. Moguće je da neko računa Budvu u Boku samo zato što je za vreme Austro-Ugarske bila pod istom upravom kao Boka. PANONIAN (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

re: grandfather

The family of my grandfather was not from Montenegro, for at least as anyone can remember; instead, the family has lived on Pelješac. I've heard my mother say how her father (my grandfather) said he was probably related to one Katarina Kosić or Ozana Kotorka (1493-1565) because of his last name. There was also a reference to some old yearbook or birth registrar that said something about migrating from Krivošije, but I at this point I can't remember exactly what the source was. I could check with her if you really want to know.

If I recall correctly, this refers to an insinuation by User:Igor, during one of the earliest Wikipedia discussions about the nationality of the Bokelji. I didn't really look back at that discussion much (because this was just one in a long line of little flamewars incited by that character); if you think that anything should be changed about that, please let me know. --Joy [shallot] 21:16, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

reply

Sorry for taking so long to reply, but Happy Holidays to you too Pax :) semper fi — Moe 21:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

EU & others

Thank you. A happy new year to you, and I hope you'll get in the EU, soon! ;-) bogdan 22:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Mesta

Pixie, My mother is from Tivat. My father is from Perast. Both born just prior to 1945 there. I got most of my info about the people of Boka from my grand-dad...he would go on on and on about Boka and the people there. Both sides of the family are catholic and had some priests/dons in the family over the years. It's not 100% Known when we arrived to Boka. With first wave or 500 years ago. some evidence for both. In those towns Croats were majority when my parents were there. Maritime books of Boka mention us as Venetian - Croatian - even Perastinian too No mention of us being Serbian in origin

Jagoda 1 21:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, pa reko sam ti I said just prior... ok ti bas treba ..dad 1942 mum 1944. They came Australia 1965.

Why would you say i was so lucky? In what way? Maybe you mean life is better here...

)

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OK PIXIE,

ZDRAVO..Jagoda 1 21:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

wHAT THE?

I don't know why you think Montenegro was fascist/nazi after WW2. I don't think you ever visited the place when it was part of Yugoslavia. You could have stayed and made some sort of living there.

Tell me about yourself Pixie. You're Albanian in origin right?? Jagoda 1 21:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, don't get your point. You're trying to say Orthodox people had it tough under nazi rule, guess what so did the catholics, anyone who opposed them. Never really looked at occupation of Monetnegro during ww2, you must mean we were under the Nazis, tell ya the truth iam not sure. I don't like modern history.

Sure, i have told you about me and my family. You should do the same back ok...

My guess is if you have Albanian blood the Kosovo issue must be tearing you apart. Jagoda 1 02:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

status?

Can you please update your userpage to reflect your current status -- other editors might not be aware that you are still active. Thanks :) // Laughing Man 18:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

User:BOSNA_U_SRCU_SRBIJA_U_KURCU's name

Hi. I'm trying to see if User:BOSNA U SRCU SRBIJA U KURCU's user name violates Wikipedia:Username. I don't speak the language. User:Laughing Man suggested I ask you. Please see User talk:EarthPerson#Re: translation and User:BOSNA U SRCU SRBIJA U KURCU's pages for background. Thanks. --EarthPerson 18:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I've got the translation, submited it to WP:RFCN and it's already been blocked. Thanks. --EarthPerson 19:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Your retirement notice

I've taken the liberty of removing the retirement notice from your user page, as you appear to have rejoined us. Sandstein 16:00, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Bocans

Patience, young grasshopper. I don't even know where to start with Bokelji. Quite frankly, I'd rather improve the Croats of Boka Kotorska article first. I'm not quite sure where the Bokelji article is going/where it should go, but it has all sorts of problems. I'll give it a shot, but don't expect anything too quickly. --Thewanderer 22:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

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The best way to improve Wikipedia is not to read it. When i read that Bokelji are of Serb tradition i fell of my chair.

Jagoda 1 02:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC) PS Pixie zdravo legendo. Vise nemogu da citam nepravdu na ovom sajtu.

Jagoda 1 02:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Voj

Pixie, opet ubacivas neki Serb Pov. Vojvodina ima i Madjara i Hrvata dosta ..ne samo Srba. Pa Monica Seles je Madjarka koja je iz Vojvodine ali na kraju se zvala Yugoslav i Serb posle..

Nemoj bre da pricas neke gluposti da u Vojvodini su samo Srbi. Polako.

Pitanje reci pravo sto si ti? Jagoda 1 21:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Pa ono drugo zna svak. Isto... Ima Taljana 20 miliona u Brazilu, ima 9 miliona Poljaka u Americi... Pa znas da Francuski fudbalski tim rjetko ima pravog Francuza u njemu. U Mundial 98 milsim da je samo bio jedan ili dva, Dugary i Petit...ostali su Zidane Alzirac, Bartez i Pires Spanjolac itd...

Jagoda 1 21:51, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Sokci i Bunjevci su majority Hrvati. Nezmam zasto na Vojvodina population oni se broje kao neki drugi narod. Zna i glup covek da su to Hrvati. Nisu drugce nego Istrians Dalmatians itd..Hrvati imaju mnogo branches de narod je unique, svoj dialect i tradiciju. Jagoda 1 22:01, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Pa dorbro Pixie, ne razumes me. U Vojvodini ima majority takozvani Srba ali nije 100% sigurno da su to pravi Srbi poreklu po krvi. Moze se reci da ima majority narod u Voj koji se osjecaju ili zovu sebe Srbi ali na kraju mozda nisu Srbi poreklu ni po krvi. Eto samo se tako zovu. Milsim u tom mestu ima i Hrvata i Madjara koje se danas zovu Srbi...to je sigurno. Godinama se vec mesaju tu. Pogledaj mene ja sam Australac, Roditelji su CrnoGorci i mi se svi brojimo kao CrnoGorci. Mi imamo Hrvatske krvi ali to se ne broji u statistiki ni i Australiji ni u Crnoj Gori danas. Ista stvar u Vojvodini danas ima Hrvata i Madjara koji su postali Srbi po statistiki. Razumes me. To je normalno, zenu druge nacije i kad produ 50-100 godina i vise zivota tamo, kog je briga za onu staru nacionalnost. Sad ima nekih koji se jos zovu Hrvati i Madjari posle 50-100 i vise godina, ali to je retko. Sto se zovu ono koji su isli tamo ima 400 godina? Sigurno Srbi.

Pa Srbi su aktivni na Wiki i vise nego drugi iz Bivse Yuge. 30,000 je malo, milsim da je User Panonian itd napravio preko 100,000..treba brojiti hitovi, discussions itd.... Ne govorim protiv Pane, samo kazem kao example (ja i ti ga znamo). sam on kaze da mu je ovo poso, pa sam promisli kolko vremena je on na Wiki. Vidim dosta Srba na Wiki i pogotovo oko articles de se prica o Hrvatima i Hrvatskoj..vidim da Hrvati na drugu ruku nisu tako aktivni na Srpskim articles. Pa normalno vidis da Srbi vise zele da menjaju stvari na Wiki...

Nisam 100% siguran ali milsim da je jednom u Vojvodini bilo vise madjara nego Srba, i znam da su dosta Hrvata tamo isli. Tako sam cuo pricu, verzija haha. Mozda ti znas vise.

Jagoda 1 02:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:Hostname

responder to talk page post

I wouldn't say I'm adding it to a lot of IP addresses ... nowadays I add it primarily to those anon-IPs who I've warned about vandalism where the hostname resolution is potentially informative. In the past I went through a period where I was interested in where anon-IPs were coming from and I added to a significant number of anon-IPs who edited articles that I watched. Do you see a problem with how I've used the template? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Response for "Milosevic=Great Support?"

Your point is clear, but other parties that ran for elections throughout those years were not much better than Milosevic's. For example Vuk Draskovic's SPO, Seseljs radicals (I think it was SRS), and even the more seemingly moderate parties had democratic ambitions as fas as Serbia was concerned but in regards to Kosovo they seemed to be following a similar ideology. When you take into account the involvement of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts in the academic arena, and how much moral justification the "Memorandum" drafted by its members, gave not only to people like Milosevic but others who followed a similar violent approach, it will be clearer that after he was elected (forcefully or deceivingly) generally he enjoyed wide support for certain aspects of his policies, especially those relating to Kosovo. Also, the Serbian press was almost entirely a tool for propagating the false arguments in that document, as such serving the purpose of the campaigns that its producers were determined to implement. This type of thinking enjoyed wide support, and in that sense Milosevic's party only differed in terms of its methods. He happened to be the one willing to further his policies and he was not even significantly hindered in putting such "scientific" pretext into practice. I honestly do not mean to undermine the sacrifice of a few independent minds that were also active at that time in Serbia, but unfortunately that is what it was. Bardylis 03:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

In terms of the data you provided, and assuming that the figures are accurate, I can agree with you. But regardless of this he did enjoy great support for some of his policies for reasons I tried to explain above. People may not have been willing to elect him, but when he was elected others' political agendas were not in any significant conflict with his for certain things. He did enjoy good support in those terms. I just do not know that it is realistic to judge from the election figures only, because we are talking in terms of what he did and to what extent people supported that. Bardylis 13:08, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Afrika paprika (2)

Hey, I know that exact same feeling. I've protected your userpage, extended his block to two months, protected his talk page & redirected it to his userpage. All good? BTW, what do you mean by "This IP address resolved to National Bank of Croatia as of 21 December 2006, 02:34 (UTC)"? Am I blocking a bank (i.e. a public IP?) or just him? (like his house?) Khoikhoi 09:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Carosovans

Pixie, Who are the Carasovans???

After a time people take up the origin of where they live. Magyars are linked to Vojvodina in many ways still today...bit like Italians with Istra....Serbs with Kosovo...population has fallen in favour of other ethinic groups but the connection with that land will never fade...too much history.

I have heard of Molise Croats, about 50,000 who are of Croat origin living in Italy for the past 500 years or so. I only learnt that few months ago, never knew before. You would think thousands more would have migrated to Itlay and took up Italian last names. I think nearly all Croat last names got Italinaised but in Molise it seems they kept old traditions ...not sure why that place was preserved and is known even today as being Croat.

I don't think the edits matter, what i was trying to say was Serbs tend to get more involved in edits about Balkans, far more than Croats do. Who cares???

All of the former Yugoslavia is mixed...i strongly believe that most Bosniaks are in fact majority Croats who converted to Muslims when Turks came to Balkans..a smaller number are Serbs ..and and even smaller number unknown but yes could well be the so called other Slavs called Bosniaks. Bosnians have a country now and it would be silly to divide the people as being Croat or Serb in origin, they feel Bosnian Bosniak and good luck to them. Nothing wrong with that and I agree that is their nationality now. Ancient history ois ancient history. Sure many Serbs in eg. Dalmatia are today Croats and Croats in Vojvodina became Serb...it happens over time.

Some say Croats are Serbs are the same people, same tribe ..logic would tell you that they were close as they share the same settlement pattern into Europe, same time, both from Persia etc.........I read somewhere that some Iranian study was done on this and proven but was burnt by Yugo govt as they wanted people to think they were all Slavs and not Persian in origin. The link between Croats and Serbs is a touchy subject, very unpopular with some people who continue to argue that their is no link...I think their is a link.

Jagoda 1 21:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, A name like Mulsimovic, Hadzibegovic etc...show me a clear Turk influnce on a Slav name. It clearly shows a name was converted from a Croat/Serb name eg Begic/Begovic to part Turkish. I don't know 100% but it's logical to think when Croats and Serbs took up the Muslim faith, way of life...they took up the new names too, they were influneced by the Turks who occupied them in Bosnia. Some Bosnian people say today that wasn't the case and they were always muslim, always Bosniak and have no link with Croats or Serbs etc... I beg to differ, that might be the case for a small number but most of them would have been converted from Croats and Serbs into Bosniak muslims.

In my view the Slavs had no religion ..we took up religion in 7th Century. By chance if Serbs and Croats both took up the same religion, bet you wouldn't have this hatred today..in the end it's only religion that devides the two, rest are minor things.

Enough about Vojvodina...

Jagoda 1 02:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedian Bots

Nope, sorry. Khoikhoi 05:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Paganinas

So, Pax. Did you check my sources about the ethnic origin of Narentines? Of course: not. You're to busy fighting your little private war on the Wiki. Have a nice day.
83.131.49.21 11:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Do not worry, I am searching it with another user. You're making it hard however, as you're not fulfilling your own part of the "bargain" and obeying Wikipedia's rules. But don't worry, obviously unlike you - word is a lot more important to me. --PaxEquilibrium 14:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so I don't have the honour too? Thanx. Can you remind me of the word I gave and break? And what Wikipedia's rules do I break, please (just do not begin with this Afrika Paprika thing again)?
89.172.14.160 17:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - that was an unintentional personal attack - but you indeed have broken the very limits of "trollishness" and even the Free Wikipedia has its own limitations. I'm sorry, but I will have to do it again - as it has been proven a hundred times before that you're indeed a sock of Afrika paprika. Deceit, deceit and deceit (aside almost every other type of disruption: edit warring, vandalism, personal insults, sock-puppeteering and other trolling). --PaxEquilibrium 20:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Pax. I'm so glad that you finaly got rid of that nasty paprika-troll. Now, I hope, you will have more time to look into my sources about the ethnic origin of Narentines. You don't quite need to write a dissertation, you know. Cheers.
89.172.12.25 19:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice try (ya know; when I said: "Keep trying, you might even fool someone some day", I wasn't really serious). --PaxEquilibrium 18:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I was ironic too, cause we both know that you don't care about the historical facts. But as long as you and I know the truth, it feels good seeing you pushing the idea even you don't believe in. So pathetic. See you around.
PS Oh, so much about "keeping your promise".
89.172.11.239 09:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Good call

to redirect Bokelji.--Hadžija 16:46, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks. :) --PaxEquilibrium 22:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrin Wikipedia 2

I have started up a second proposal on the Montenegrin Wikipedia, I think it should be time to restart it. If you want to vote, the link is: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Montenegrin_2

Thanks again. --Crna Gora 06:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Pax

I'd just like to bring this to your attention - Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Hahahihihoho. I'm having a lot of trouble with a sock (User:Alkalada) of User:Hahahihihoho. I'm telling you this because, since you're a better editor than I am, maybe you'll get a response from admins, or you might be able to deal with him yourself. I'd appreciate any help. —KingIvan 11:58, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah...

Thanks, honestly I did not know that. Jagoda -> for some reason gives me a feminine connotation. Hopefully i did not offend him. Anyways, how did you know that? Pozdrav, Vseferović 00:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XI - January 2007

The January 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 21:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Burno reagovanje?

"Zaista pre-burno reagujes u nekim slucajevima (kada razgovaras s Kuburom i Marinkom)"

• Ne sećam se uopšte o čemu sam pričao sa Kuburom, ali očigledno je da me Marinko zajebava, pa kako treba da reagujem? Koji mi kurac priča o Karadžiću i Mladiću kad ja nemam nikakve veze sa njima? Ja članke o Karadžiću i Mladiću niti sam čitao, niti me zanimaju, niti imam nameru da bilo šta u njima menjam, a to što on mene povezuje sa Karadžićem i Mladićem samo zato što sam Srbin smatram velikom uvredom. I o čemu ja onda sa njim mogu razgovarati? PANONIAN (talk) 21:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Serb Politics Info

Hello, I saw your posts on Marinko's talk page, and I was wondering if what you posted is considered 'common knowledge' or if you could direct me to some sources which would contain such information, such as books (hopefully English sources, but if not, then in Serbian), which you consider least biased/subjective and most informative/neutral with regard to Serbian politics of the 90s. Thanks for your time, Stop The Lies 01:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

Thank you very much :) Stop The Lies 22:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

I know you probably don't have time, but just in case you do, could you point out any book distributers which would have this book available for online/mail order? Because I'm having a real hard time finding anything online. Stop The Lies 22:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_Lies

RE: Sock Puppet

Ah.. that'll be User:Nikola Smolenski then. I'm afraid I wrote a mildly insulting reply to his post on Talk:Kosovo. It's damned difficult to remain level-headed all the time, I guess. Any idea who I'm supposed to be a sock puppet of? Davu.leon 18:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to investigate if you'd like: I'm back in Ireland for a little while, so my IP will have changed, (if I understand it right). Other than that all my posts have been made from Pristina, where I was researching a documentary. I may have made a post from Tirana, but I think it was signed in as davu.leon. I'm pretty sure I haven't posted without signing in ever, and I try to always sign my posts. I think my first post was 14:30, 29 August 2006, on Talk:Kosovo War, but I'm not entirely sure on that one. My posts are recognisable by frequent over-wordiness and an ocassionally supercillious tone, and I generally post with a slight pro-Albanian bias. (Seems slight to me anyway, probably not to some.) Anyway, if you need any other information, (other than my home address, which I don't really want to post on Wikipedia,) please ask and I'll happily supply it. Hope you're keeping well in the New Year, and good to see you haven't totally dissappeared from Wikipedia, my friend :) Davu.leon 19:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Believe me when I say I know the history of the UCK far better than most people you will ever come across. (As I don't think you're likely to be talking to them yourself.) And I would not class them as a terrorist group. Seccesionist guerillas who employed violence against the mechanisms of the state, yes, with some members who were no more than criminals, yes. But not terrorists. I would compare them to the original IRA, who, in the war of independence, used guerilla tactics against the Emglish, as opposed to the modern, provisional IRA, who are terrorists. This is an opinion I have come to after a lot of research and thought, but I know it's not universally shared. I understand how your own personal refusal of violence conflicts with the UCK's mehods of attaining freedom, so I'm not going to argue with you because I think it's just one area where we'll have to agree to disagree. Tomato, tomato and all that. :) Davu.leon 08:10, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Response for "Milosevic=Great Support?2"

What you explain about Milosevic, which by the way it is absolutely true, does not diminish the obvoiusness of Serbia's continuity of ethnic cleansing policies in Kosovo mainly prior to Second World War and during 90's. Simply put, what Milosevic did was nothing new, when you consider the previous colonisation policies of others like him before the first and second world war. The entire political attitude of Serbia revolves around the same ideology when it comes to Kosovo. It is not realistic to put the whole weight on one person, when in fact as it pertains to Kosovo (because the original context of this conversation was not about the political career of Milosevic) various Serbian party leaders differ little in their perspective. I guess the question is not whether Milosevic had enough support to be elected, but the fact that he had enough support to implement some operations or whatever you want to call them (that were planned before he came to power) on the issue of Kosovo's ethnic Albanians. This is not conspiracy, it is documented history. Bardylis 20:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Double Redirects

Someone has moved Differences between standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian to a different article name. I wouldn't really have a problem with a move as long as it's moved to a more "correct" title, but it seems that a double redirect has been created and I don't know how to fix it. I was wondering if you or anyone you know could fix it. Thanks. —KingIvan 15:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I have fixed your little problem. --Crna Gora 19:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Crnogorski Jezik

Vidio sam tvoju poruku na stranici Kseferovića, pa sam samo htio da ti pokažem da POSTOJI osoba na Wikipediji koja govori Crnogorski kao maternji jezik :). Trenutno pokušavam da aktiviram jednu grupu entuzijasta koja je radila na test projektu odvojeno od nas. Sa povećanim brojem eventualnih saradnika povećavaju se šanse da nam odobre prijedlog. Ti si, na moju žalost, odlučio da budeš neutralan. Ipak, i dalje se nadam da ćeš bar malo pomoći ako uspijemo da dobijemo zvaničnu Crnogorsku Wikipediju.Pozdrav. Sideshow Bob 18:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Re.Crna Gora

Hi. I unprotected CrnaGora's talk page now, as his anger might have decreased. By the way, it sounds kinda strange that both of you claim to have left Wikipedia when you're still actively editing it. ;-) Regards, Húsönd 15:37, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

RE: Serb Montenegro

Fair enough, I don't have a huge familiarity with the Serbian Radical Party, or with Balkan politics in general (which I'm aware is a very complicated topic). It seems to me that the big question is whether the concept of "Serb Montenegro" is an actual part of the party's programme, or just a personal idea of the politician (Tomislav Nikolić) who the article credits with its invention. If it's not part of the party's manifesto/programme, then the argument for deletion is much stronger. Walton monarchist89 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (By the way, how come your userpage describes you as inactive, but you're still contributing? Might be a good idea to change the userpage, as it confused me at first.) Walton monarchist89 19:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Sockpuppets

I have mentioned all and I mean all of my sockpuppets on my user page. --Crna Gora 00:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

What other accounts are yout talking about? May I take a guess at which one you are talking about, Olaf Eriksson. I did meet him once in Montenegro at the Faculty of Philosophy at Nikšić while taking a tour. I was talking to him and invited him to join wikipedia. Oddly enough, he knew a good amount of English. While I was talking to him over the phone, I was telling him about how unfair Wikipedia was to me, so, I guess that's what makes it seem like Olaf is me, but he is not. He decided to leave because of his studies, they were piling up, and so you know. Just wanted to clear that up. Have any other questions for me, just ask. Bye. --Crna Gora 21:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

To tell you the truth, I can't sometimes tell whether a user is a sockpuppet. Some I actatually managed to figure out in a second, for example: Bormalagurski (sock: C-c-c-c), Jamal Curtis, I think also a sockpuppet of Bormalagurski, the Afrika Paprika case, the guy just kept coming back, now that was annoying, for you mostly. But, who did you mean then if it wasn't Olaf? --Crna Gora 23:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Jagoda 1 and Evergreen Montenegro1 are obviously socks, yes, but they are definetely not my socks. Can I point this out: Jagoda 1 seemed to talk in Serbian (ekavian) rather than Croatian, Montenegrin or at least Ijekavian and he calls himself a Montenegrin and especially in Australia. Since there are more Croats than Serbs in Australia, don't you think he would write in ijekavian or at least in Croatian. Odd, wouldn't you say. --Crna Gora 23:43, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok...

He added himself to the list. I want you to understand this.

If he is a sockpuppet then he does not deserve to be on the Project or Wikipedia at all. Please do not hold me accountable for any wrong doings that WikiProject BiH members commit. I just recently noticed the uproar against him. (Via long conversations...) Thanks, Vseferović 22:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

ugh!

Prestani da me napadas. Ja bih rekao, "iritiras", kad bih dijelio ovdasnji osjecaj za humor. Ne maram da mi se pojavljas na stranici i stavljas bezvezna pitanja kad nemam pojma o cemu ti to nastavljas. Koju sam korisnicu stranu redio? I jebiga, sto spada u vandalizam?

Ili si opet odlucio da me metas kao najprvi i najbolji metak?

--VKokielov 00:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Majku mu. Eto ti pun spisak, radi s njim sto god hoces:

User: contributions for VKokielov

--VKokielov 00:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Tebe zanima zasto sam uklonio link "Save Srpska" na hrvatskoj wikipedii s Borisove stranice? Mogao si to reci direktno; i, kad bi to rekao, ja bih ti odgovorio da on toga zasluzuje. Vise puta smo rekli sto on kvari odnose izmedu Srba i Hrvata svojim provokacijama. Ja sam uklonio jednu od tih provokacija, pogotovu sada kad nije vec s nama ili gotovo nije. --VKokielov 19:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Debate with Pannonian

That regime was elected by the majority of the people. Milosevic was never elected by the majority of the people.

Do you mean majority as in the majority of the electorate (includingtose that exercised their right not to vote), or the majority of those that voted?

You may even compare this to the rest of the "big dudes" (Milo Djukanovic, Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic, Janez Drnovsek,...) who indeed got the majority of the votes of the people at times. :)

Yeah but this lot didn't get bombed by NATO. Take out the common thread that was Milosevic & a conflict most likely would have been averted. Milosevic bit more than he could chew.

Excuse my cynicism, but the anti-war movement had little support until NATO started bombing. iruka 08:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC) Quite the contrary. The NATO bombing affirmed Milosevic's position, and the "anti-war movement" as you call it weakened very much. It caused a bizarre "coalition government" of all 3 major political parties that had nothing in common (of which one was even democratic) to unite under the flag of Milosevic. NATO (British) even recorded that their bombings did nothing but place Slobodan Milosevic in power.

Not my most constructive remark, as it was a tangental debate to the core issue of the article. I think your analysis is incompleted - you are right about the bombing strengthening Milosevic for the duration of the bombing i.e. the short term. But in the medium to long term it appears to be correlated to his downfall. He was out of office after about a year & in the Hague within 2? Contrast this to the four years Milosevic was in power after the events of 1995. There were also mass demonstrations once the bombing stopped [12]. iruka 07:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, thanx for the link to the election results - certainly made for interesting reading. iruka 07:23, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Not sure how that would work, surely you would need 50% of those that voted for the final round of Presidential elections?

I think it's the same acorss most of the world. I have to confess, I find such a system encourages apathy & do not favor such a system. I prefer what we have in Australia - compulsory voting. At least the result you get a reflective of all of societies opinion. I also don't understand why one needs multiple rounds at a presidential election. In Australia, we have Preferential voting which translates into a two-party preferred ballot. That is, when you vote in your electorate (we have an electoral system, but the same voting system could apply to the presidential elections of Europe), you preference the candidates from 1 (1st choice) through to however many candidates there are (usually 5-7). That way, if your 1st choice does not get enough primary votes, then your vote goes to your second choice - after this process, if 2nd choice is not in top 2 for votes, then your vote goes to 3rd choice & process continues, until there are two candidates only, with your vote still being counted. In the context of a presidential election, you would only have one round & thus saving the public money spent on a second round. iruka 01:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

2. I wouldn't class an arms embargo during a war or conditions placed on membership of international institutions as sanctions, nor put them in the same category as tomahawk missiles. Sending diplomats in place of state leaders to Tudjman's funeral is certainly a rebuff, but again, in terms of degree, not the same as a bombing campaign.

3. What you say could equally be valid. It's difficult to attribute causality in either analysis. I'm just looking at the correlations and inferring some causality from that.

w.r.r Crvena Hrvatska, I see it analogous to having separate articles for a broader geo-political entities & it's sub-parts e.g. separate article on the USA & California for example. The example you cited concerns diaparate communities living in the same area, a different thing altogether.

Thanks for the map, certainly is interesting and contrasting to the current maps of GS incorporating RS & parts of Croatia. Do know anything about a secret deal between Stojanovic? & Pavelic? post WW2. Is that map reflective of that deal? iruka 00:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was Stojadinovic? I can't remember the exact name, but I think he was the Chetnik leader/representative after Mihailovic, and negotiated future boundaries of both states with Pavelic. This happened in the 1950's or 1960's? I remember reading about it in a thesis on the states role in promulgating nationalism & the creation of insurgent groups. iruka 01:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Might not have been chetnik - some sort of political leader - Stojadinovic certainly sounds familiar in this regard.

Seeing that both Pavelic & Stojadinovic were both in Argentina, it might have been them. I can't find where I read it, but I do recall reading that a Serb & Croat representative negotiated a possible solution to the territorial aspect of the Croat-Serb national question. This was post WW2 & in a country outside of the then Jugoslavija. Other than this, I don't have any more informatin - sorry. iruka 08:07, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:MILHIST Coordinator Elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator selection process is starting. We are looking to elect seven coordinators to serve for the next six months; if you are interested in running, please sign up here by February 11!

Delivered by grafikbot 11:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Odgovor

Pitaj one koji me ogovaraju. Ne znam šta tačno pričaju o meni (ako pričaju) niti se previše uzbuđujem oko toga. --Pockey 18:08, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

?

Sad postaje zanimljivo.

Napisi mi na vkokielov at gmail dot com ako neces javno odgovarati.

Ko je rekao da sam rasista? Ja gotovo ni ne diram politiku na ovoj Wikipedii. Ako je neko to rekao, morao je da bude neko iz starih mojih prijatelja. Jel moze da se vrte ovdje? --VKokielov 03:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ako je to bio Boris, znaj da je on ljut na mene, jer nekako misli da sam ga izdao. Ali znaj isto i da se Boris vrlo lose ponio glede Svetlane prije neku godinu dana. Njegovo ponasanje i na engleskoj, i na hrvatskoj wiki smo vec dotukli do smrti na srpskoj wiki, s zakljuckom da se trebamo cuvati od njega. Jesi li vidio onaj mali edit koji je Milos u svoje vrijeme uklonio?

Obrati paznju, ako ces, da nisam dirnuo taj "Save Srpska" link nigdje osim na hrvatskoj. I to s dobrih razloga. --VKokielov 03:31, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Sto se tice tog posta...ne znam kako je sta, ali meni se cini da sam to napisao kad je dragi suradnik optuzio Joya da je srpski nacionalista. --VKokielov 03:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Ako mi i dalje nastavljamo razgovarati mimo jedan druga, onda nikad necemo sporazumjeti. Ono sto kazes znaci da je Milos rasista, da je Roberta rasista, itd itp. Ne vjerujem u to. Milos je promjenio njegovo stranicu jer mu je bilo pogrdno i neprijatno sto boris, kao admin na srpskoj wiki, sere po hrvatskoj. Jer Milos neguje odnose s hrvatskom wiki. A ja sam uklonio Save Srpska, jer nije bilo Borisa da to vrati, i bolje je da nema izgleda ko da su Hrvati podrzali covjeka koji je njima protivan. Jer "save Srpska" je primjeta srpskog nacionalizma, a srpski nacionalizam je neprijatan Hrvatima.

Jel jasnije? --VKokielov 15:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Response to Last Election Results, etc.

The Kosovo question should be drawn upon not the "hypothesis" but the fact that Albanians suffered. I do not think that it is even morally right to surpass common sense and seek help in numbers. That is where you will find the naughtiness of the statistics indeed, because it is not fun comparing the number of dead people to support an argument. But when one is forced to surpass common sense by weird statements from another planet that you hear, one has no other alternative.

Let's put things into perspective and be fair so that we do not have to compare the number of dead people:

1. Kosovo Albanians who were the weaker party of the conflict, were under oppression from the Serbian regime. The oppression included the following:

1.1. If you do not collaborate with the current regime's program to assimilate you and gradually take the power and status away from you say good bye to your job. True story: it happened all around me including my family. Of course on the other hand there were also "honest" Albanians (as they were called by Serbs) who kept their jobs regardlessly and bent to oppressor's demands.

1.2. If you do not learn more Serbian history and remove all Albanian history from schools, say good bye to your school.

1.3. If you say good bye to your job, do not use the german mark for your transactions; use the screwed up dinar instead and accept the screwed up government. Private business thrived with use of german marks instead.

1.4. If you say good bye to your school and you go to a parallel school in somebody's house, beware of the police in the streets, especially if you are a teacher. Your home is also not such a safe place in the case of the latter. You can expect some psychological and physical torture.

1.5. A regular civilian? You are OK but not if you are the wrong nationality - Albanian that is - and the police happens to stop you. You can expect some interrogation without any reasonable pretext, and possible psychological or physical torture.

All this was done systematically to include the whole population, except the Serbian minority in Kosovo and others who collaborated. If you were Albanian you were generally treated as inferior by Serbs, not to mention the denigrating term "Shiptari" used by Serbs to refer to Albanians.

This was the long-term slower suffering of generations, including mine.

The applied methods were fueled by the "Memorandum" of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts to systematically achieve the goal it advocated as early as 80's.

2. Serbian forces enter villages in Kosovo and start attacking houses and razing them to the ground. Serbia has all the military means and power, Kosovo has only the armed Albanian population with minimal means to defend. Serbian forces start applying the systematic ethnic cleansing (Serb. etnicko ciscenje) of the Albanian population. This included the following:

2.1. Burn the villages, massacre as many as possible, decrease the number of Albanians.

2.2. Expel as many as possible to the neighbouring regions, mainly Albania.

And the following that did not go according to plan:

2.3. Close the border not to allow them to return when the operation is completed. Get a record of the remaining minority population. Make them Serbian citizens and assimilate them over time until they are no longer a threat. Colonize the region with inhabitants from Serbia.

The applied operations were prepared plans for over decades, and they had been applied systematically in the past.

This was the short-term tragic suffering.

3. When we talk about the suffering of the Serbs firstly, we should understand that it was the result of what happened to Albanians on a systematic scale and secondly, that during this conflict there was never a systematic plan for ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Albanians for two simple reasons:

3.1. There existed no plan endorsed by Kosovo's parallel Albanian government (LDK) to do so, especially seeing that the major concern was freedom from oppression. Needless to say no such a goal as changing the demographic composition of the Serbian population systematically was ever close to mind for the suppressed parallel Albanian government.

3.2. Kosovo's parallel government had no military means to even pursue any such goals even if they had existed. To be more precise Kosovar Albanians had no army period. Basically, the KLA were the aspiring army of a future Kosovo.

---

The current smaller number of Serbs in Kosovo was small before the conflict too. So both figures are close enough, if they are to serve a common argument anyway. But I do not think that is the point. Again, numbers, numbers, numbers... we are surpassing common sense here again. Kosovo Albanians simply had the determination and the natural precondition to disassociate from Serbia. Serbia did not know how to deal with this from the beginning until the end, and lost the case. This started by adopting a domination policy that worked in favor of enduring Albanians until the issue was internationalized and ended by use of force that again with much unfortunate sacrifice on the Albanian side worked in favor of Albanians who resisted the Serbian forces with minimal military means and gained the needed sympathy and support. I think this is the main point, if we want to argue over numbers just for the heck of it.

When you mention the shielding of Serbian people from extinction and this being used as a pretext to bring Kosovo under control by stripping it of its autonomy, you should understand that very often statistics of any existing atrocities against Kosovo Serbs were deliberately blown out of proportions to serve a purpose. Think of the case "Martinoviq", mentioned in the "Memorandum" drafted by the Serbian Academy of Arts and Sciences. This case was used over and over to stir the whole matter, to a point that a meeting had to be called by the Serbian government to discuss the issue. What was the reason? To force the idea into people's minds that Albanians are a danger and to accelerate some action against them. Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts had already embarked in a campaign to prove this case, and as such they were not strangers to manipulation of figures and false claims to achieve their goal as defined in the "Memorandum".

Another thing: about the Greater Albanian issue you mention... I am not sure how this was practically perceived in the past. Perhaps during the conflict in Kosovo such ambitions were more dominant in the Albanian population, because of all the sentiments and everything but nowadays the face of politics has changed. It is no longer the same song. Albania is more concerned about its economy and Kosovo is concerned about independence first and ultimately its economy. I think both sides would be primarily concerned more with practical reasons when it comes to the idea of a possible unification. On one hand how would this affect Albania's integrity and economy and on the other hand, how would this affect Kosovo's integrity and economy. I am not sure that patriotism is preceding pragmatism in today's politics. It's more like an internationalized homogeny of the whole region.

I do not understand the fear of the people you have met. This is entirely subjective anyway, but Kosovo poses no risk to Serbia. And Serbs probably know well that as long as Kosovo is independent Albanians do not even want to hear about Serbia. Of course both regions would have to cooperate economically to survive anyway.

I do not understand your argument about Montenegrins. Why would you punish Montenegro for something that was done by Serbia? Frankly, I do not think that punishment is really relevant in this subject anyway. The ones who should be punished are criminals.

In case you misunderstood my argument about how Serbs were directly involved only serves me to counteract the arguments that tend to shift the cause of the whole problem on one person only - Milosevic. And I counteract it that way because it is simply inaccurate to claim something like that. Blaming someone does no give me any pleasure to be honest with you, but it is only truthful to say that there is more to it than just Milosevic, and to explain how.

---

It is not that Serbia has to be punished by making Kosovo independent, but that Albanians have to be rewarded with freedom for their long-term endurance of oppression and struggle and wisdom I must say by doing so. We saw what would happen when you leave it to Serbia to decide. It had its turn. It didn't work. So what is next? Go back to the way it was? Do you think they even tried to build trust among Albanians? Do you think Albanians feel comfortable being part of Serbia? No more than Kosovar Serbs feel comfortable being part of Albania. That is why Kosovo should be an independent region under international supervision. Neither Albania nor Serbia - Kosovo.

No, Kosovo does not pose a risk in the way you explain. It is formally part of Serbia, but it is not governed by it, and currently it is as if Kosovo is not part of Serbia anyway. How does the lack of control of Serbia over Kosovo pose a risk to Serbia? The only concern can be the Serbian minority in Kosovo, and that is the only risk for which there should be preventive measures. But Serbia itself as a region is not at risk from Kosovo, also because it is under UN (soon EU) and under peacekeeping forces. Bardylis 15:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

It is not really a matter of historical sufferings being taken as an argument for independence, but that such analysis helps explain why certain things are possible and others not. What has a positive outcome with perhaps little tension and what has negative consequences with a real possible conflict. So perhaps you can tell me what would happen if Kosovo was absorbed within Serbia by totally disregarding Kosovar Albanians, what would happen if Kosovo united with Albania by totally disregarding Kosovar Serbs, and what would happen if Kosovo simply became an independent region under international supervision. Which one do you think has more negative consequences and as such is less likely to solve the problem? Which one is more likely to happen given the current situation, considering the fact that Albanians have proved to be able to govern independently from Serbia and that self-determination was evident right from the beginning of Serbia's domination policy, when Albanians formed a parallel system. Bardylis 15:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Could not be friendlier You are actually making what I explain sound like a stereotypic point of view similar to the ones Serbian politicians hold. But actually it is very truthful and pragmatic. Starts from reality and develops from there. I couldn't be more idiot-friendly (I am not saying this with sarcasm to insult you... don't misunderstand).

Kosovo seceding Well, if for argument sake you say Sanxhak or Sumadija is seceding maybe, I would think that is a real problem for Serbia's integrity. But with Kosovo it is a little different, because it has been almost independently governed from Serbia for quite a while now. If the idea of an independent Kosovo sounds outlandish to you, the idea of a Serbia where Kosovo only exists in memory is no less outlandish. You see what I mean? They are both relatively new concepts. Only, one is more likely to happen and the other is less likely to happen, because it already failed. Of course something in the middle is also an option, but definitely something more fair than before.

Something in between "the pre-1989 autonomy was far too much;" ...and Serbia's domination policy began. Ethnic cleansing of Albanians started. NATO intervened. Peacekeeping forces entered. Diplomacy resumed and... "...that's why (the Serbian government) claims the middle is the best solution (as neither extreme points would be re-introduced and balance would be restored)." Really? Like what? No independence but more than autonomy or... the initial autonomy that was far too much or... less than autonomy?

Freedom I personally experienced or tasted freedom for the first time since the conflict started when KFOR entered my city and I could walk to my friend's place without the fear of getting killed. So you see... Albanians, such as myself, got addicted to that feeling. So, yes constitutions and laws are written on paper and their enforcement does translate into freedom for citizens. The current one that Serbia has? I do not know man. I don't think it is good for Albanians.

Serbia's main problem Serbia's main problem is Serbia itself, only Serbs have not yet realized it. If something as likely as Kosovo's independence is Serbia's main problem... wow... I wonder what its REAL problems are. I feel compelled to inform you that probability is not entirely on Serbia's side on this one.

UN screwed up UN screwed up and is losing nothing. Serbia may be losing control of Kosovo. Is it relevant who screwed up? Referring back to the punishment mentality you mentioned, no one can punish you more than you can punish yourself with lack of wisdom. It is general and it applies to everyone.

Determination In the original context I was referring to the LDK government during tensions in Kosovo, managing to operate as a parallel (although illegal) government, despite oppression. That government represented, not to exaggerate, almost all Albanians. That shows you how determined Albanians were. Now it is a a bit different because of all the corruption going on, that many Albanians are not happy with. What can I say. It is too bad that it is happening. I hope things get better when the status is settled and economy improves. Serbia is no stranger to corruption and immature politicians either.

Two extreme options The two extreme options I put there just to demonstrate to you where the middle is as you seemed to be too carried away trying to explain that historical sufferings can not be taken as an argument. Within that context I tried to explain how analysis of historical references can help to explain why certain things are possible and others not. What has a positive outcome with perhaps little tension and what has negative consequences with a real possible conflict. So I took two extreme examples and one that is more likely to demonstrate it. Of course other likely examples are also applicable, some of which you have already mentioned.

National minority National minority? Yeah. As far as I know Albanians are also not a minority but a constituent nation. It works the same way with English, Spaniards, Germans, Poles, Russians, etc. and it just depends where they live I guess. Since Kosovo is only formally part of Serbia and under actual international administration, within this unique unsettled region Serbs do not form majority. Take for example elections in Kosovo: Serbs from Serbia, that would otherwise form the majority if that were the case, do not participate in elections right? So as far as Kosovo is concerned they do not form a majority. Bardylis 02:53, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

OK?

Tung

p.s. "What does not kill me, makes me stronger." -- Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols, 1888

So what is the difference between the initial centralized autonomy that was far too much, and "less than independence more than autonomy"? The first was rejected because it seemed too much and the latter is a conscious decision as a result of a compromise. Bardylis 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the statistics showing a growth of the Albanian population in Kosovo in the not-too-distant future and the slower pace of natality in Serbia, is what made Serbian politicians in the 70-80's first consider some form of higher status for Kosovo as an option. Another practical political consideration. Bardylis 16:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was referring to the following: "The initial autonomy wasn't too much. It was too little (probably). It is the latter 1970s-1980s centralized Pristina autonomy that proved to be far too much." I should have said the latter instead of the initial. I made the correction below:

So what is the difference between the latter centralized autonomy that was far too much, and "less than independence more than autonomy"? The first was rejected because it seemed too much and the latter is a conscious decision as a result of a compromise. Bardylis 16:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sure you liked the news today. :) Bardylis 23:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

In year 2070 there may be a war between humans and machines and we may be living underground. :) But the good news is the proposal from Ahtisari was a positive start. Let's see what future brings. I am getting a bit tired from this conversation and it is taking me a lotta time. Otherwise, it was a pleasure. Thanks. Bardylis 05:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Internationally-imposed is the key word here, and I agree. Nonetheless, elements like de-centralization, securing Serbian and other non-Albanian communities, preserving religious sites, maintaining the territorial integrity of Kosovo, basically form the core of the document proposed by Ahtisari. Given these elements, which lean more towards Kosovo population's self-determination with reduced influence from Serbia, I do not think that refuting it altogether will be an option. There will have to be a compromise of some sort. But yes, it is true what you say about Balkaners and I am not offended. Balkan itself is a Turkish word meaning honey and blood. The place of sweetness and sorrow... bittersweet reality so to speak. But you come from around there also, don't you?

Honestly, despite all these conversations, soon society world-wide (we are talking global now) will be facing some significant problems that won't spare this restless bittersweet region either. Think environment and other things that still sound like science fiction to some but they are more real than ever before. The Balkan mentality never allowed poeple to see things from the global perspective, while it is the crucial understanding, because global decisions will always affect the small decisions of the small reality in that area. Soon our ancient mentality will be modernized by a global and more prominent problem. Bardylis 17:08, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Random Smiley Award

For your contributions to Wikipedia and humanity in general, you are hereby granted the coveted Random Smiley Award
originated by Pedia-I
(Explanation and Disclaimer)

--TomasBat (Talk) 13:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

poreklom

Mene ne zanima ko je sta "poreklom". Mene zanima ko sto jeste, jer na Netu nista drugo ne vazi. Ono, Joy je Hrvat po svim priznacima. Stavi "hr-x" na userpageu. Naravno da mozes shvatiti bar toliku apstrakciju, da se ne moze covjek optuziti za pristrasnost svojoj vlastitoj strani! Joy brani interese Hrvata, stoga je Hrvat. Ako zastupa umjerenost, to mu ide na dobro, it's to his credit! Zar ne mozes toga razumijeti kako treba? He steps out as a Croat to restrain the Croat nationalists -- hence he deserves praise, not the scowls that Croats like to throw at him all the time. And that praise is not for restraining Croat nationalists as they are, but for serving the interests of Croats by defending their good name without resorting to trickery and slander. --VKokielov 18:26, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

da?

Pa na Wikipediji ne postoje "strane" kojoj pripadaju pripadnici odredjenih etnickih grupa. :) --PaxEquilibrium 19:24, 1 February 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:VKokielov"

Jer si bas tako siguran u to?

Da to bi, ne bi ti imao posla. --VKokielov 20:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

:)

"Pa, eto - mozda ti ne vidis zasto - ali ova recenica mi izgleda izuzetno odvratno (da ne kazem ogavno). Joy nikada ne bi trebalo da bude hvaljen tako/zbog toga, vec iskljucivo zbog njegove vrhunske neutralnosti. Joy je majstor, pa tu i nema mjesta za neke bizarne "ekstra pluseve", jer ne postoji ocjena veca od 5-ice (tj. 10). :) --PaxEquilibrium 18:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)" Ne samo da vidim zasto, nego sam napisao te rijeci da vidim kako ces ti odreagirati. Medutim svega srca vjerujem u to. Ti i ljudi koji misle slicno tebi po nekom razlogu probate shvatiti sve to odvojeno od covjeske strasti i osjetljivosti. To je krajnje pogresno, pogotovu sto si ti, kao i sam kazes, stradao u posljednjem ratu. Ta ne mozes ti sve ljude suditi jednako, i -- pazi ovo sad: niko ne voli izdajnika. Imajuci to u glavi -- necemo sada ulaziti u motive Joyevog ponasanja, ali ja iskreno vjerujem da je on posten -- moras priznati da i Joy ima prijatelja, i rodaka, i poznanika, i svi gore navedeni ljudi, ili bar vecina njih, danas se gadaju od onoga sto ti zoves "neutralnim pristupom." Znaci Joy, ukoliko ipak proba biti neutralan, a pri tome da je svjestan svoga okruzenja i svojeg privrzenstva, stavi se u sasvim nezgodan polozaj. I stavljam mu zvjezdu za dalekoglednost i razboritost, kad zna odluciti, kao sto sam opet kazes, rodoljube od nevaljalaca.

Namjere ne bivaju djelomicno zle, djelomicno dobre. Ako vec je namjera, onda je voljna; a kad je voljna, onda se i ne dijeli, ukoliko covjek s kojim imas posla nije blesav sizofrenik. --VKokielov 20:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Dobro, dobro, dosta od mene.  :) --VKokielov 05:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Bog dao da bude. --VKokielov 22:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Dobar si.  ;) --VKokielov 03:09, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

source on Živković?

Živkovićeva kritika na račun DS... No source? Kumdjole 20:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

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copy

You are mistaken I did not. Would you like a I P Number check? No problem because I'd prefer to be above any doubt so just ask Buffadren 09:15, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Hiya, Friend, I have no problem with you knowing my identity and my IP number will clearly show it oh too clearly., However there are some people out there that I really don't want to know because they will claim because of my position IP number I am biased , So since this is between you and I i'd prefer to keep your enquiry between us. When you get your answer I trust you will be happy for me to delete the trace of your request.. Hope you are okay with that....just that there are guys here that are a menace I did copy some things like images from his site, thats all. No connection....just when you get it I know you say..hey I'm cool with that...just do me a favour...don't publicise it....its nice to be private here.... B Buffadren 10:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I did, or maybe I don't understand it ? People copy tags and boxes from other people the whole time. His matched some of what I wanted so I just copied and pasted them, It was simple. Is that your question ? Buffadren 11:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment

I'm not "falling" for anything... I declined to get involved. By the way, can you link the discussion on WP:AN/I where he was community banned? If that is the case the template on the userpage needs to be changed so it is clear he is banned. Right, now I have to assume he is just indefinitely blocked...--Isotope23 22:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

sockpuppet template

I think the previous template was good enough -- the new one you added seems to be for temporarily blocks with the "welcome to return message", but Afrika has been blocked indefinitely. // Laughing Man 23:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

It also conveniently gives links to suspected/confirmed sock categories we have. If anything, we can subst the template and change "suspected or confirmed" to "confirmed", if that was your intention? I'll update the page for now since I'm not sure if you're around anymore :) // Laughing Man 23:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Afrika paprika

Hi, I don't recall participating in such discussions in order to have the user blocked, I think what happened is it was requested over IRC, and so I reviewed the block and extended it to indefinite. My recommendation to you is to check the noticeboard archives around that time to see if there were any such discussions. —Pilotguy push to talk 02:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I was just getting back to this... I see no evidence of a WP:BAN of the editor in question, just an indefinite block of his account as well as several blocks of his other accounts for doing the same thing he was originally indefinitely blocked for. That is different than a WP:BAN.--Isotope23 13:14, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

University of Pristina

Pogledaj ovu diskusiju [13] i ukljuci se ako mozes. Andrija.b 19:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Brotherhood and Unity

I have never had the "independence banner" although I do support it :-) It doesn't clash with brotherhood and unity at all. After all, Montenegro is a brotherhood and unity country! Momisan 04:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

English people have a saying: "where is a will, there is a way...". Perhaps we will learn our lessons one day.Momisan 05:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

DOS - SDP

E, ne sećam se baš ko je tada imao koliko mesta u parlamentu. Probaj to naći na nekom sajtu preko google search. PANONIAN (talk) 10:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Military History elections

The Military history WikiProject coordinator election has begun. We will be selecting seven coordinators to serve for the next six months from a pool of sixteen candidates. Please vote here by February 25!

Delivered by grafikbot 14:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Zdravo Pixie

Ostavio sam Wiki jer ima previse nerealnog naroda ..pravu se kao neki watchdog, radu standover tactics, bullying over other users. I ja mogu brisati moj komentar, jer nesvida se meni sto sam napisao. Free to edit. Neznam zasto si mene optuzio kao neka budala...stvarno nerazumem te...mislio sam da si moj friend. Tvoj post nije fair i sad stoji tu bas da ga drugi vidi pa mislu da ono sto si reko.. da krijem, mislit ce da je to neka istina. Ja ne krijem nista..sve sam ti reko...odakle su moji roditelji a ti nikad nisi reko odakle su tvoji...pa ti sam krijes vise nego ja. ja sam otvoren na sve.

Zdravo moj Pixie :( Jagoda 1 22:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie,

BRISEM DA JE UREDNIJE. Pa znam za history itd....proslismo preko toga pre i vise puta....+ kako Panonian kaze "pa ko ima vremena da cita history, ja nemam" tako da se moze lepo uredit User Talk page da barem izgleda bolje. Neke komentare i bolje brisat ako se moze, pre dugo izgleda i manje zanimjlivo za one druge usere koji citaju prvi put..pa ako citaju. Bolje skratit ako se moze. Nemam sto kriti..pa na kraju vecina mojih edita na history su jer sam neko krivo slovo napiso npr.. Cran a trebao sam pisati Crna..pa popravim to = mnogo history edits.

Bio sam u San Diego USA kod nekih koji su iz Perasta po reklu kao moji. Bio sam u San Fran isto i vidio onaj Alkatraz. Gledao sam imali nasih koji su bili u Alkatrazu. Istrazivam nesto otome...mozda ti znas.

U vezi Afrike Paprike, zasto ga mrzite? Nisam ga nikad cito (nesto malo) ali ima svak pravo da pise na Wiki. Ako se tebi to ne svida onda nemoj citati. Nemilsim da covek bas nema pojma odnicemu, govori sto on veruje...bilo to sto je istina ili ne. On veruje to. Treba po malo mu dokazat. Pa ja i ti smo dosta se gurali, pa na kraju sam i ja naucijo nesto od tebe. Ovo blokiranje itd...je samo mrznja....pricajte.

Jeli mene neko prijavio Adminu? Jeli tamo mi govoris da pristanem...

Jagoda 1 02:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok Pixie, C Ya ...Sigurno uvrede nisu Ok Jagoda 1 22:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, Precrtati neke reci???, evo tek sam sad primjetio to da se moze - nisam nikad ni bas vidio da se moze. Vidio sam pre ali mislio sam da to Admin radi ako se nesto slabo prica itd... OK Zasto precrtat?? Bolje je izbrisat i ponovo 100% corect napisat. Urednije. Drugo nezam sto da ti odgovorim...Archive?? Znam za to ali neznam ga napravit haha Stvarno.

Ja ovaj Wiki koristim ali nisam 100% siguran na sve te options. Pa jam molio User: Panonian da mi stavi CrnoGorsku zastavu na moj user page. Nisam ja computer man haha Ucime se pomalo...

Pa ti Nisi odgovorio na moj Alkatraz pitanje...ajde Pixie ja i ti smo kao dva brata..isti smo haha

God Bless Jagoda 1 02:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok Pixie, I have taken you words on board. I will try to answer one day..right now I don't have the time to be honest. I want to leave Wiki as of today and if i do re visit i will try to do as you said.

God Speed to you Jagoda 1 21:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Pixie, ostavi moje comete vani koje sam briso ok. Molim te ok. Ostavi kako je.

Jagoda 1 22:26, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

another possible sock/obvious troll

PE,

You're pretty good at noticing trends, and I believe that this editor (CroDome) is exhibiting behavior that leads me to believe it might be related to the Afrika paprika case. Can you please investigate, as I feel you have had the most experience dealing with him, and might be able to determine whether it's worth it to pursue a CheckUser?

Thanks, // Laughing Man 01:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the response I just to wanted to give you a heads up, I've posted my thoughts on the discussion page, and I agree with your conclusion of why the account was created, and because of that reason, I thought it might be him :) // Laughing Man 18:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, long time, no hear :) What kept me from retiring was the vandalism or misinformation to articles I use to look stuff up for. I'm fine, how are you? — Moe 02:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear your frustrated :( The only advice I can give you for retiring (like you want) is to not look at the history of your userpage if he is actively vandalizing it. Responsible users/admins will revert and block the socks whenever they start to show up, so theres no reason for you to stress. I have similar trouble whenever I try to retire or the like, my page was vandalized 7 times within the first 24 hours of me trying to leave. Thats when your most vulnerable and thats when vandals seek to attack you. My advice would to be just to stay away from the history page as much as possible. But if you have to look at the history, don't look at what the vandal said, because it will most likely make you upset (I should know, the weirdest vandalism to my userpage was a vandal saying I masturbated with a gerbil up my anus or something like that.) Just ignore them, they aren't worth stressing over. — Moe 16:13, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

R.E, People I admire

It's not so much that I "like" them, but each of them has a certain quality that I admire. With Alexander and Julius Caesar, I admire them for their skills at creating huge empires, and I can see how that can be contradictory, as I am opposed to modern imperialism (and no, I can't really explain it myself - I'm strange like that :). I guess maybe my admiration of ancient warlords started because I used to play a lot of Age of Empires. The other folks have good points and bad points, for example, Arafat I admire for his unrelenting passion for helping his people - although, he has done some bad deeds. I usually don't support war, but I'm of the opinion that sometimes violence is necessary to force change, hence my support of Cuban/Argentine/Bolivian revolutionary, Che Guevara (I don't think I mentioned him on my user page). In the whole Palestinian-Israeli conflict, I believe that the Palestinians were treated unjustly in the creation of Israel, and the refugees and their descendants are still being treated unfairly by not being allowed to return home, so you'll usually find me supporting the Palestinians on issues relating to the conflict. On another sort of related topic, now that Chris Cornell has left Audioslave, maybe Rage Against the Machine will get back together for good, and I can bang my head to some new revolutionary beats by them - yes, it's true; I am an angsty teen ;) —KingIvan 04:18, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Help needed

Hi! For a change, I need your help. :) Could you lend me a hand with putting all Serbian parliamentary parties which have *EITHER* more than one seat in the National Assembly *OR* are affiliated with a European political party into the correct columns in Table of political parties in Europe by pancontinental organisation? —Nightstallion (?) 09:00, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Saradnik/Suradnik

Saradnik used to be much more prevalent, however, recently more and more people are starting to use 'suradnik' or the prefix 'su' in general. I would say that both are accepted in Montenegro, we are not fanatics :-) Momisan 05:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The word is borrowed, in both versions, period. Someone I know, refered to the language used by politicians in the Oz as parliament english. Well, this is parliament Serbian/Croatian. It is not a word common people use often. As such, it was imported to the Montenegrin language by learned people, who depending on where they spent their student years, Zagreb or Belgrade, used one version or the other. That was 19th century. In the 20th century, whatever mass media was prevalent, and in Montenegro it was of course Belgrade, dictated the current fashion. The point is, the common people do not think of this word as theirs, so it can change as the "fashion" changes. Momisan 22:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so it is about what I did :-) Because, both versions are currently in use. Sorry, you might not like it, but, it is a fact. There is no right or wrong answer here, both are correct as far as Montenegrins go.Momisan 02:13, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

You are factually wrong on pretty much every statement you have made. The rest is just plain labelling, typical play-the-man-not-the-ball. I don't see this discussion going anywhere so I would apreciate if you spare me from now on. Thanks, Momisan 02:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I believe using su instead of sa is legitimate in the Montenegrin language. "Vidji vraga su sedam binjisah, su dva maca a su dvije krune." (from Gorski Vijenac). I don't know Jevrem Brkovic personally, however, calling him scum of the earth is hardly NPOV. He is an intelectual, didn't commit or even enticed any war or other crimes. His views might be controversial but that is hardly the excuse for you to use such a language. Momisan 23:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, so you admit su is used in Montenegrin :) Good. But, its "archaic", like the whole Montenegrin language. Lets replace it all with the "modern" one, Serbian of course. Following your logic, Croatian is also archaic, because it also uses su. But, Montenegrin is part of the Serbian language you say, that gives you the right to "purify" it from all those "anomalies" and "archaisms". Boy, if you could only burn all those books from Njegos and Marko Miljanov, and just get rid of those pesky words!! And now, you are turning into a proper language policemen and have the audacity to accuse me, why am I using it. I must have an agenda, conspiracy:) I don't know, it comes naturally to me, from my mother tongue (100% Montenegrin). Teachers didn't do a good job on me I suppose ;) You can find suradnik in Monitor and other newspapers, I am not going to spend my time answering your infantile questions. Language is a living thing, my friend. It is also democratic. Every person has their choice how they want to talk. Our task is to accurately record the facts, and the fact is that suradnik 'is in use. I am not a language fanatic either. I am sure my language proposal was saradnik/suradnik, not just suradnik. I expect you to check this and then come back to me with an apology, if you want to continue the conversation. As for Jevrem, you have your opinion, I have mine, I don't see either likely to change so lets stop talking about that. That is more than enough information for you, please spare me from your ruminations for a while ;-) PS: Who are you working for? :) Regards, Momisan 00:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Age of Mythology

Hey, I used to own that game as well. Did you find it very, very easy compared with Age of Empires and Age of Empires II? I thought Age of mythology was somewhat lacking when compared others in the "Age of" series. —KingIvan 06:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Please use English

I noticed that you have posted comments on an article or user discussion page in a language other than English. When on the English-language Wikipedia, please always use English, no matter to whom you are addressing your comments. This is because comments should be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, please provide a translation of the comments. For more details, see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. —Psychonaut 13:56, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

hERE U GO

OK PIXIE, THANKS FOR THE INSIGHT ON KOSOVO. FOR ME I HAVE LITTLE INTEREST IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD TO TELL YA THE TRUTH 1 I LIVE AND WAS BORN IN AUSTRALIA. 2 MY PARENTS ARE BOTH FROM MONTENEGRO.

TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY I KNOW ALBANIANS CLAIM KOSOVO AS BEING THEIRS EVEN BEFORE SERBS/SLAVS SETTLED IT. I KNOW KOSOVO IS VERY IMPORTANT TO SERBS IN HISTORY VS THE TURKS ETC...

I THINK BOTHS SIDES NEED TO SWALLOW SOME PRIDE AND LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER UNDER A SERBIAN FLAG AND A PERHAPS A KOSOVO STATE WITH ALBANIAN POWER. WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER WAR LIKE IN BOSNIA. I THINK THE WORLD HAS HAD ENOUGH OF US BALAKAN PEOPLE FIGHTING OVER LAND. IN THE END TO ME IT'S JUST A NAME OF A COUNRTY...NOBODY IS TAKING AWAY YOUR ANCESTRY/RELIGION ETC...ALBANIANS CAN BE ALABANIAN LIVING IN SERBIA, BUT KOSOVO BEING PART OF ALBANIA AND NOT SERBIA IS ANOTEHR STORY AND IN MY VIEW IS POINTLESS. I LIVE IN AUSTRALIA YET IAM VERY PROUD OF MY MONTENEGRIN HERITAGE, WHY CAN'T THE ALABANIANS DO THE SAME IN SERBIA...INDEPENDENCE ISN'T NEEDED OR IS IT??? I MIGHT BE WRONG.

GOD SPEED TO ALL SIDES

OVER AND OUT FOR ME Jagoda 1 22:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Vojvodina parties

Pitaš me za koju partiju bih glasao ili šta? Ja na izbore više ne izlazim a neću još dugo dok se u Srbiji ne pojavi neka normalna politička snaga, a o gotovo svim sadašnjim političarima koji vode ili žele da vode Srbiju mislim da treba da se ubiju i spasu Srbiju. Toliko o politici. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 00:02, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Pa govorio sam o realnim političkim snagama koje imaju nekog uticaja. Što se tiče pokrajinske vlade, nju čine DS, LSV, SVM i PSS. Inače ne vidim baš da se ova država kreće u dobrom smeru - danas sam u socijalnom čekao sat vremena samo da bih dobio informaciju gde i kako da napravim novu zdravstvenu knjižicu, da ne pominjem da su po tom novom zakonu zamislili da ja uopšte i ne treba da imam zdravstvenu zaštitu - po njima bih trebalo da crknem ako se razbolim. Eto, i za koga onda da glasam? Glasaću za onog ko bude ukinuo ovaj robovlasnički zakon o radu, obezbedio mi posao, obezbedio mi pravo na zdravstvenu zaštitu i poboljšao uslove lečenja u bolnici, a sadašnje političare boli ona stvar da se time bave. Uostalom sama činjenica što su ti političari živi je dokaz da rade za mafiju i da prave zakone koji odgovaraju isključivo mafiji, jer da rade drugačije mafija bi ih odavno ubila. Slika i prilika društva u kojem živimo. E, bolje me ne pitaj ništa o politici, jer ništa lepo ni o kome iz te oblasti ne možeš čuti od mene. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

PSS je ušao u vojvođansku vladu vrlo jednostavno: pre zadnjih izbora vladu su činile DS, LSV i SVM, ali pošto su te tri partije na zadnjim izborima zajedno osvojile manje od 50% glasova, uključile su u vladu i PSS da bi imale parlamentarnu većinu. Prosta matematika. :)) PANONIAN (talk) 00:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:Igor Mandić

Sorry, I don't know anything about him (except what a simple Google search provides), but there's a little more information on the Croatian Wikipedia which I linked to.

Anyways, sorry if I don't reply sometimes. I'm sort of a lone wolf on Wikipedia these days. --Thewanderer 03:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No worries mate

Yes, I too admire Tito a lot more than Gotovina. And I can understand how someone who was a victim would probably be upset at first glance of my admiration of both men. But I think if people take the time to talk about my reasons for it (just like you did), then they'll understand me, even if they still don't agree with me. I personally admire your inquisitive nature - it shows that you like to fully understand a person or subject before making a judgment, so please keep it up. Thank you for your time. —KingIvan 06:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment

What does this comment mean [14]?
"...Southern Dalmatia Serb"?Kubura 13:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I answered your comment

I answered your comment on my talk page here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bosniak#Attempts_to_discredit_User:Psychonaut

Cheers.Bosniak 01:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

A reply

Some of your messages were getting into spam. Kubura 08:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

re :)

I don't think so, or at least I don't remember :) --Joy [shallot] 16:32, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:Note

May I ask where did you find that quote? I tried looking for it on Google and the only thing I found was two links pointing to Wikipedia talk pages where it is again you who is posted the very same quote. And yes I would like you to remind you as well that Wikipedia's policy is verifiability. The quote you posted cannot be verified while we have quote from 1911. Encyclopedia Britannica which says: Boscovich's father was a Croat and his mother was Italian.[15] Tar-Elenion 15:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Also I forgot to add. The "importance" of Boscovich to Serbian astronimical society is completely irrelevant to all of this. By the same logic we should add that Nikola Tesla was a Croat since he is of "immense importance" to scientific community in Croatia. And unlike Boscovich he at least had some connection with Croatia. Tar-Elenion 15:58, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Re:Reply

So in other words you can not verify this. Let's go back at the Wikipedia verifiability policiy, shall we? Now as for Nikola Tesla we at least have him saying anything connected to Croatia and he was at least born in what is today Croatia, we can verify that. What is Boscovich's connection with Serbia? We have absolutly zero references by him, we have zero references by neutral sources (I think we should definately agree that contemporary ex-yugoslavian source on similar issues are not "neutral") and we have zero scientific arguments that would support it. Draw your own conclusion. Tar-Elenion 16:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry PaxEquilibrium but you did not verify your claims. Let me put it this way: I can provide you at least a dozen sources stating Nikola Tesla is a Croat, does that means he was a Croat? Now let's take a look at the Serbian source about Boscovich, what is the difference? Tar-Elenion 16:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You say "his father was connected to Serbia". In what sense exactly? That he traveled through Ottoman Empire territory that was once Serbia? I am sorry but you don't make sense. Tar-Elenion 16:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

He didn't just wrote about Orthodox monastaries but in general of all Christian buildings and places of worship. He made several notes about poor condition of Catholic churches in the area he was travelling. Tar-Elenion 17:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

"Yes... so?" Exactly my point. :) Tar-Elenion 17:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The last question should have been made by me. Tar-Elenion 18:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Re: Petar II Petrovic-Njegos

You've made your point. I will revert my edit to save you time. --Crna Gora 19:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue XII - February 2007

The February 2007 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

Delivered by grafikbot 16:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Ter-Elenion

Tar-Elenion's IP address is most definitely [Special:Contributions/89.172.231.115 89.172.231.115] (see this revert on Slavicca Ecclestone).

This has also attracted much of my attention to connect User:Tar-Elenion and User:Afrika paprika, a very violent troll who's been trolling for a year or so (creating hordes of sockpuppets, like User:Factanista for instance). It is not only that Tar-Elenion shares exactly the same interests like Afrika's armada (or more precisely, with those of Factanista), and I became especially suspicious when I saw the 89.172 AOL. Afrika paprika has never ever stopped trolling since the day he came to Wikipedia on 5 July 2006. For this whole time, he has been creating hordes of sockpuppet and constantly kept blatantly trolling, editing other user's userpages and posting violent personal attacks (aside from the fact that about 90% of his +1,000 edits were revert edit-warring). He then switched to anons after he got tired of socks. He has never given and vouched never ever to do so - and very interestingly, when 2007 came (after alluding that he already made a new account), he vanished into thin air. This is about the same time that Tar-Elenion shows up.

I don't want to share bad faith, and there is a greater possibility that Tar isn't Afrika, but I just thought you should know (P.S. - mostly because of his IP confusion). --PaxEquilibrium 21:45, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Another Wikipedian wrote a messeage to him and referred to him as afrika [16] this could be a sign that he infact is Afrika Paprika Paulcicero 23:36, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You should also look through that users (User:GreaterCroatia) edits and you will notice that he hasnt mady any useful contributions, all his edits are pov-vandalism Paulcicero 23:52, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have questions regarding possible sockpuppetry, you are free to open a request for checkuser. -- tariqabjotu 05:39, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Care to explain your actions?

I am not revert-warring, I am not trolling and I am certainly not anyone's sockpuppet. So what exactly is your problem? Tar-Elenion 14:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not been "heavily revert-warring" and you can see that through my special contributions [17]. And I have deleted the "sockpuppetry case" because it was proven to be totally false and because the templates totally messed up my page. I will bring this matter to WP:ANI if you continue, my tolerance for this kind of behaviour is zero degree. Tar-Elenion 16:09, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I have been involved in revert-war on Slavica Ecclestone which I have admitted and that is why I have asked the page to be protected which was accepeted. The dispute on Roger Boscovich was anything but revert-war on my side, more a content dispute where Nikola failed to provide any verifiable source for his claims. These two cases can hardly be justification for your gross and very mean choice of words: "you have been revert-warring heavily". I am sure you had a few such disputes in the past, shall we conclude that you "revert-war heavily" too? And no, that was not a threat, it is a course of action I will take if you and Paulcicero contintunue with these false accusations. I am sure there is some rule on Wikipedia which says you cannot just go around accusing people they have sockpuppets and/or are sockpuppets of someone else. Tar-Elenion 17:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

How did I offended you?

I see that you have reported me accusing me of being a sockpuppet (again). Tell me, did I offended you in some way? I am not revert-warring, I am not offending anyone and I have never said anything against anyone. I am like any other decent member contributing as best I can. I simply don't understand your obsession of you and Paulcicero proving I am someone's sockpuppet. You say I was silent after your last post to me and said this is evidence. Evidence to what? I want to have this ridiculous dispute behind me and you accuse me so. Why are you so malevolent towards me? Tar-Elenion 20:25, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Well yes I am worried, I was worried the last time Paulcicero accused me too. I don't know what this checkuser means and how it conducts it's investigation or how reliable it is. I am also worried because I also checked my IP and it says 89.172.194.247 which means I have the same ISP like the anonymous person you associated me and also like most sockpuppets of the banned user you refer as Afrika paprika (Severina song?). Tar-Elenion 21:10, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

So what if this checkuser mistakes my IP as being connected to the other IP's? This would mean I would get blocked!! What then, is there any way I could appeal to this? Perhaps by email? And if this happens is there any chance I could prove I am not this person? Did such cases occur in the past? Tar-Elenion 21:41, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Milo

same magnitude of Slobodan Milosevic. I must desagree. Besides, that was not about war crimes, or about presidency affair. Its an allegation for cooperating with tobacco smuglerers. I know what kind of person he is and what a criminal he is, but encyclopedian writing has sertain styles.

You undid the wrong edit. You undid my last edit, but i think that wanted to leave that one, but undo the one before. --Milan Tešović 21:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

did he achieve that much wealth through criminal activities? What wealth? He ownes one apartment in which he and his family live. Nothing else. He probably has lots of many in foreign banks, but are no proofs. That is why you cant name him tycoon in second or third sentence of the article.

sex-slave trafficking ...is a speculation, and it looks to me nothing but that. Who knows...

weapons dealing to the eastern extremist armed forces. -now that is foolish . No such thing.

Stealing cows? Croatia, at the time ruled by neo-nazists (right wing extremists finding Ustaše a role-model) were commiting a genocide over Serbs. See War in Croatia, here misnamed Indepence war (since it wasnt about croatian independence from Yugoslavia)

This is not about for or against Milo, I just tought that that fact should find its place in some other part of the article.

Do you speak Serbian? Fin trening engleskog --Milan Tešović 00:41, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you really support Milo and his DPS CG?. No and I never did. Not when he was with Bulatovic, nor when they split up. After the split up everyone was of with Milo, or with Momo (Bulatovic) - no undesided, no one in between - a binary choise. Exept for me. I could stand them. --Milan Tešović 02:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. how can you even ask me that? dont you read what i say? read again

Podgorica Civic Assembly has proclaimed Stjepan Mesic honorary citizen. So what?

I know what "options" there are. I live there (see my user page). Also check out what percentage did Djukanoc and Bulatobiv have on the parlament and presidential elections in 1997 and 1998. They were both one party, they broke up and booom - two parties that were ones one party have 80-90% voters "together". That is called two party system (like so called Democrats and so called Republicans in the US). --Milan Tešović 14:20, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

p.s. Achive this page. Its terribly huuuugee.

Userpage

Hope you don't mind if I responded to the request at Khoikhoi's talkpage :-) --Domitius 00:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

R.E

I still admire some of his qualities, but in light of some of the crimes he has (allegedly?) committed, and the fact that he cannot compare the slightest with Alexander and the others, I felt it was time to remove him. —KingIvan 10:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ијекавски

Разлике у језику словенских племена у вријеме сеоба биле су скоро незнатне, мада су се неки "дијалекти" - будући словенски језици - већ почели развијати. Чакавско нарјечје икавског изговора најстарији је језик Хрвата, према мишљењу Шафарика и Добровског. Вук Караџић чакавски назива "правим хрватским", а за кајкавски сматра да је словеначки дијалекат који је кроатизован. Тако су сматрали и многи словеначки филолози и лингвисти у раздобљу романтизма. Неки су српски и хрватски лингвисти вјеровали да је чакавско нарјечје најстарије и да је "отац штокавскога". Александар Белић сматрао је да се чакавски у прошлости простирао до Шумадије, указујући на неке икавске значајке и у србијанским говорима (старИји, волИм, сИкира). Међутим, ово је мишљење данас напуштено. Изговори који данас постоје - екавски, ијекавски и икавски - тада се још увијек нису сасвим раздијелили, већ је употреби и даље био вокал јат, мада су се неки дијалекти већ били почели формирати. У почетку су највјероватније постојале двије штокавице, како вјерују хрватски лингвисти, источна (у Црној Гори и Србији) и западна (у Босни и Херцеговини и Хрватској, до Боке Которске и Дрине), па се усљед сеоба народа пред Турцима источна штокавица проширила и на запад и то је ова коју данас користимо. Ипак, све то су само претпоставке, јер о језику словенских племена на Балкану у то вријеме јако мало се зна (будући да је старословенски био књижевни језик, те се народни језик ријетко користио, осим оних примјеса које су улазиле у писани језик стварајући рецензије старословенскога). У сваком случају, занимљиво је примијетити да је хрватски језик од старине икавски, а и украјински језик садржи неке значајке које бисмо могли назвати икавским (лiкар и сл.), а Хрвати су се доселили из данашње западне Украјине; док и пољски језик, а Срби су дошли из данашње Пољске, садржи неке значајке које бисмо могли назвати ијекавскима (dziecko и сл.). Када се то има у виду, може се рећи да су Срби можда донијели ијекавицу на Балкан, а Хрвати икавицу, мада се у то доба још увијек користио вокал јат. Но, све је то опскурно и дискутабилно... --Djordje D. Bozovic 13:56, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Accusation

Hi PE, User Pannonian made a number of allegations stemming from our debate on the "NATO bombing of Novi-Sad article", on talk page of said article & on a page where I requested a RFC [18], and my talkpage [19]. Amongst other things he accused me of:

• being an internet troll;
• of bad faith;
• of a racist attitude and ethnic hate against Serbs;
• of making edits full of racist prejudice.

And imputed that "aim is to present that all Serbs are evil and that Serbs cannot be victims of the war"

He also stated that "I myself was an victim of the war, and claims of this user that I was guilty for the suffer that I survived is simply outrage.".

Now I cannot tell, if Pannonian is suffering from PTS, or making the mistake of personalising the issue, or cynically using anecdotal experience in the face of logical arguments contrary to his position. I'll go by wiki guidelines & assume good faith, and thus conclude it's either PTS or just that the issue has personal significance for him. IMO, the allegations reflect either seeing s/t or wanting to see s/t that isn't there.

I generally ignore the allegations made above, b/c they are unsubstantiated, and merely reflect a momentary lack of composure in the heat of debate, by the person making them. And I am sure that @ one moment or another, we all had moments of bad judgement, but when we walk away from it, we can see things more clearly.

As for your allegation which I'm assuming is one of POV. I invite you to look @ my edits for the article that was in dispute, and see that they were well-sourced & non-controversial.

Most of my edits generally are fact checking & throwing out unsourced material, material that is presented in a way that is no longer recognisable from it's source, material from self-referential or dubious sources. Of those articles where I have done substantial edits (from memory), Croat COA, neo-nazism in Croatia, a section on Croatian Serbs, a section on Yugoslav wars, & basketballer Stojko Vrankovic; most of the material has remained unchanged or done in agreement with other editors. And as you know from interacting with me, I am more than willing to discuss a point of view based n the facts.

More than happy to discuss the how you formed such a perception, b/c I think it is a mistaken one.

Cheers, iruka 07:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

PE, it looks like I'm not the only one to come under accusation by Pannonian - see here [20]. If one didn't assume good faith, it could be taken as stalking or standover tactics to intimidate away members of wikipedia that had a contrary view. It really doesn't help Pannonian's case, when he accuses a contributor w/o evidence & then asks them to leave wikipedia b/c it goes against Wikipedia:No personal attacks & Wikipedia:Assume good faith. iruka 01:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Added referendum

Is there a source stating that there'll be a referendum this year? Or was that just assumption? —Nightstallion (?) 13:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Help

You appear to have already done it. :-) Khoikhoi 02:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Not Twins

Man, I just don't know how you can think this. We are all just editors here.Buffadren 14:25, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

RFCU

We only have checkuser data in the database for a limited period of time. I cannot run the check because there is no data. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 16:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Calm and civil?

You accuse me of being someone's sockpuppet and you say I should remain calm and civil?!? How do you expect me to do that? No, I am not extreme revert-warrior, yes I was revert-warring at Slavica Ecclestone and I suffered the consequences. What do you mean I was not cleared? The checkuser said declined and your request was denied. What do you mean someone else used my AOL IP address? When? Where? All your proofs are allegations and slander, there is not one proof of me being anyone's sockpuppept (this AfrikaPaprika included). No one used my IP address, how can someone use my IP address?!? Tar-Elenion 18:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt that accusing someone of being a sockpuppet or having sockpuppets is just business as usual. I look at your previous request and the checkuser was not dclined because of my inactivity but due to AfrikaPaprika's inactivity. In the end the request was denied and that is what matters. What with this and this? I told you my IP, where do you see my IP here? You have absolutly no proof of me being a sockpuppet and how could you when I am not anyone's sockpuppet. Stop with this charade. Tar-Elenion 18:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I see now that you are totally insane. No, checkuser didn't confirm I am AfrikaPaprika. Leave me alone you lunatic! Tar-Elenion 19:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)