Talk:Tina Turner

Tina or Turner

To me it's confusing that she's referred to "Turner" even in sections about her relationship with Ike Turner. Is there any style guide prohibiting us from using her first name to clarify which Turnet "Turner" refers to? PizzaMan ♨♨♨ 11:26, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Date of death

According to the Chicago Tribune, she died on Tuesday, which would make it the 23rd of May, not the 24th.

The Tribune reported the death on the 24th. Beats435 (talk) 19:22, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Reuters said her date of death was may 24th. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 19:23, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I just noticed that. Perhaps it's a time zone issue? Which is strange, because Tuesday still means Tuesday. Beats435 (talk) 19:26, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Part of me wants to believe it wouldn’t of taken a whole day to report her death, but I have no idea. Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ _Talk 19:28, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I remmener a similar discussion with Stephen Hawking where the DOD was in the time zone it occurred. For example, if she died in Tokyo, we would add Tokyo's time zone as DOD. – Callmemirela 🍁 19:49, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Should the date be kept at May 24th, or should it be changed to May 23rd? 2601:18C:8B82:A9A0:65DE:1DD4:D700:DA98 (talk) 21:24, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I personally believe we should use UTC for consistency. - L'Maynerque - ("May you [insert query here]?") - 21:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Associated Press is also saying that she died on Tuesday. 2601:18C:8B82:A9A0:65DE:1DD4:D700:DA98 (talk) 21:43, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

It looks like it was just an error on the AP's part. According to Sky News, her spokesperson sent out a statement to the press that said "Tina Turner, the 'Queen of Rock 'n' Roll' died peacefully today at the age of 83 after a long illness". On her Facebook page, the statement announcing her death went out at 22:45 local time on Wednesday evening for Switzerland. The Tribune's article looks to be the AP's, so it was just this one article saying she died Tuesday. Every other article I've checked says Wednesday. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 23:23, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

I also agree. Keeps it simple.= ~RAYN7105 Rain7105 (talk) 12:15, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2023 (3)

I suggest to change "Also in May 1984, Capitol issued the album's second single, "What's Love Got to Do with It"; the song had previously been recorded by the pop group Bucks Fizz." to "Also in May 1984, Capitol issued the album's second single, "What's Love Got to Do with It"; the song had previously been recorded by the pop group Bucks Fizz (but not released until 2000)." for clarification. Joz (talk) 20:02, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Replacing a secondary source

The source currently numbered as 22, cited simply as "African American Lives on YouTube" is a YouTube clip of the documentary. Acceptable editorial practice would be to cite the actual episode of the documentary itself, not a clip uploaded to a sketchy YouTube channel with a racially inflammatory title and description. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:47:4301:5fd0:34fe:88e0:d03d:d21c (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Requesting the + of missing info

This page makes no mention of Tina Turner’s collaboration with Jimmy Barnes. Nor does it mention her NRL (Rugby) associations.

also please add these link/s to ref section.

https://amp.abc.net.au/article/102387886 49.183.155.47 (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Infobox Image

The infobox image for Tina Turner just changed upon her death. Normally, when a famous person, celebrity, or world leader dies, their infobox image was normally changed to the older photos (whether colored or black and white). Examples are shown below, which include:

Elizabeth II

• 
  Infobox image before her death (taken in 2015)
• 
  Infobox image after her death (taken in 1959)

Meat Loaf

• 
  Infobox image before his death (taken in 2019)
• 
  Infobox image after his death (taken in 1971)

Ronnie Spector

• 
  Infobox image before her death (taken in 2010)
• 
  Infobox image after her death (taken in 1966)

Because of this, do we have to vote for the final infobox picture once and for all? Image choices are shown below.

Image choices

• 
  Option I
• 
  Option II
• 
  Option III
• 
  Option IV
• 
  Option V
• 
  Option VI
• Option VII
  Option VII

RMXY (talk) 02:25, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Comment: Appreciate that a younger picture might be relevant. But any black and white image would seem to keep her locked in the 60s? Her period of mega-stardom was definitely technicoloured. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Option III has the highest quality, and showcases her prime as well. Option III also shows Tina Turner focusing on the camera more than any of the other pictures. RTSthestardust (talk) 18:33, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Cast your !votes below this line

• Option V. mainly because it's not black and white, but also because it shows her performing. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

  Agree re Option V. Wollro (talk) 14:43, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Option VI or one of the other colour images. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:55, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Option II. Even though it was the infobox image before she had passed (rest in peace, legend) the black and white photos don't capture her most successful tenure as a solo act. Tina has this trademark recognizable fuzzy blond hairstyle in the 80s, which is her biggest era, so most people wouldn't recognize her straight haired and in black and white. I suggest keeping the current image as is, as the other options are either taken before she became a famous solo act, or the other color photos are unflattering at best. Option V is the second best option though. PHShanghai | they/them (talk) 13:02, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I per nom. Typically, after celebrities pass away, a black and white photo/or image of them during their prime are used for the infobox. The same should be true here. --79.66.89.36 (talk) 13:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

  1970 was hardly "during her prime"? Certainly not in terms of her career, her commercial success or her private life. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 14:34, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Option V or VI She is internationally most recognized from the 80s era. --Mika1h (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option VI The 1980s look is iconic, and comes from the time of her greatest recognition. A lot of obituaries I saw leading with photos from this era. I only see the 60s and 70s looks take precedence in articles discussing her marriage. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option V - most known for 80s --FMSky (talk) 19:58, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I - It's the best one where we see her face, good quality and represents everything as to why we're having this discussion in the first place (young Turner, good quality image and shows her during her peak). --73.110.175.228 (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I Options VI and V are in bad quality, you either can't see her face or it shows an unflattering angle. Option I is the best one because it's shows her face in a good angle, it's in black and white and is in overall good shape. Also per 79.66.89.36 and 73.110.175.228. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

  @TDKR Chicago 101: Options VI and I are in bad quality... Option I is the best one...: Typo?—Bagumba (talk) 04:30, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• Option V captures Turner's 80s prime the best — the lighting in Option VI is a bit harsh and it's landscape rather than portrait, which isn't ideal for an infobox. It is a shame we don't have an 80s equivalent of Option III, though, as it's a clear portrait of her face. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option V While I think Option I is a better quality image, she is most known for her work in the 80s. This photo best captures how she is remembered. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 20:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I, it’s the best quality for an infobox. You can clearly see her face and also see that it’s her (unlike Option V). It also captures her when she became a major star in the late 60s/early 70s (effectively she had two prime periods in her career). Black and white image is a non issue either. Tub st (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I. Best looking picture; these performance photos aren't that good, honestly (II is actually the best one in that category). Let's keep this more neutral one for the infobox, and the ones of her on-stage for the article itself. NJ (talk) 02:03, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I I would say, although it needs slight editing to reduce overall darkness, and capture the light of III, which has great lighting. Maybe slight cropping around the sides and top, to focus it more on Tina also. I would do it, but there are better editors out there for such things. I've always been a fan of infobox images that focus on someone's face, ala Brigitte Bardot & Rita Hayworth, which are amazing main images, as opposed to the main image of Elvis, which captures him in performance from a distance. My two cents. Michael0986 (talk) 02:18, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option V or II Ideally the lead image should be from the subject's peak. We don't default to black and white automatically. Her peak was her solo career, not in the the 1970s: "...becoming a brighter star in her 40s and 50s than she had been in her youth" (The Washington Post), "...went on to find even greater success as a solo artist in the 1980s" (BBC), Sources of her death are not leading with images from the 70s. Option II at least somewhat looks like she did in the 80s, and has a better view of her face than even V.—Bagumba (talk) 07:08, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option I This picture has the best quality, and you can see her face clearly in the picture. Cheers! // 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 07:21, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option V or II Both sufficiently demonstrate her performance style and persona at or near the peak of her popularity and are the style and image most associated with her that are most prominent in the public sphere. The black-and-white images are of a good quality, but do not bear much resemblance to her image at the height of her career. A google image search confirms this, discounting very recent images, the majority of the images of her are from the 1980s period. Very few are from the 1960s. --Jayron32 17:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
• Option V I think V is the best option as it is Tina as she is best remembered, a performer on stage, and at the peak of her popularity. She's also in a typical Tina Turner stance. In terms of composition, cropping and representation of its subject as they are most recognised, I consider it the best here by a mile. Though she's facing away from the camera, I think you can glean her facial features well and she'd be neatly facing the text if we use it. Humbledaisy (talk) 21:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

References

Lead section

I suggest the lead section be changed to:

Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock; November 26, 1939 – May 24, 2023) was an American-born and naturalized Swiss singer, songwriter, dancer, actress, and author...

to:

Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock; November 26, 1939 – May 24, 2023) was a singer, songwriter, dancer, actress, and author...

By removing the nationality. What do you think?

EDIT: An example was already given at Anya Taylor-Joy.

RMXY (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Support

1. Support , text about her nationality in the first sentence of the lead is distracting. I think is better to move all mentions about it to the existing explanatory note, as in the example provided. Alexcalamaro (talk) 04:46, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
2. Support, a distraction and not an important feature of her success for most people. But see separate question about "Naturalized Swiss" below. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
3. Support, per above. Loytra (talk) 11:44, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
4. Support as the flag-waving is not of primary significance. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
5. Option 3: "Was an American-born singer". --FMSky (talk) 12:14, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
6. Support As it is, it's overloading the first sentence with a rather minor part of her biography and notability - that at the age of 74, after all her albums and tours, she stopped being an American. Her 30-year residence in, and 10-year citizenship of, Switzerland can be listed later in the lead. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2023 (UTC)
7. Support The peculiarities of where someone lives and/or was born and/or what their parentage is, is far less important than many people want it to be. --Jayron32 17:20, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
8. Support Putting place of birth and/or nationality in the lead sentence of any bio is a habit we've got into, but it can cause problems, and offers little valid information. The lead sentence should be for what a person is notable for. Turner is not notable for being Swiss or for being born in America, she is notable for her voice and her attitude. SilkTork (talk) 11:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
9. Support Mentioning nationality in the first sentence is arguably important when the person is relatively unknown outside of a particular country or two. Which is not the case in this case. Cielquiparle (talk) 11:38, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
10. Support, per the various points above. Carlstak (talk) 15:29, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• As there seems to be strong support for removing Turner's nationality from the lead sentence I've been WP:BOLD and done so, instead mentioning her place of birth in the second para and Swiss citizenship in the third. Please consider this an interim measure, however, as I don't intend it to end discussion of other options. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:36, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

"Naturalized Swiss"

Should Swiss nationality law be pipe-linked somewhere in this article? 205.239.40.3 (talk) 10:03, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

not really, per MOS:OVERLINK --FMSky (talk) 10:07, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Birth name

Perhaps a mention that some sources (including Ike Turner) indicate she was born Martha Nell Bullock not Anna Mae Bullock.

https://www.tina-turner.nl/1939-1964.php

https://www.nohipstersallowed.com/music/tina-turner-turns-80/

166.199.114.64 (talk) 15:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Tina Turner: My Love Story (Official Autobiography) here makes no mention of "Martha Nell", but has "Anna Mae" throughout. So not sure that's true. 205.239.40.3 (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Lead Format

Exact details aside, can we please discuss whether the basic form of the lead should take its current form, or the form I've tried to edit it to. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:08, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Its very important to have the lead focus on her most notable stuff, singing, and not give too much prominence to irrelevant acting roles and her autobiography --FMSky (talk) 20:16, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Turner's acting and autobiography occupy two sentences of my version of the lead. The entire second paragraph and much of the third and fourth are about her singing career. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:19, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

this is basically the whole part in your version about her music career, definitely not enough imo:

Turner began her career with Ike Turner's Kings of Rhythm in 1957. She adopted the name 'Tina Turner' in 1960, and married Ike in 1962. Together they became "one of the most formidable live acts in history", having several hits together before disbanding in 1976 and divorcing in 1978. Turner's 1984 album Private Dancer launched "one of the greatest comebacks in music history"; it contained the hit song "What's Love Got to Do with It", which won the Grammy Award for Record of the Year and became her first and only number-one song on the Billboard Hot 100. She had several more hit singles in the 1980s and 1990s, and in 1988 her Break Every Rule World Tour broke the Guinness World Record for the largest paying audience (180,000) for a solo performer.

--FMSky (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The lead as I edited it is heavily focussed on Turner's music career. Here's all the sentences which mention it:

Tina Turner (born Anna Mae Bullock; November 26, 1939 – May 24, 2023) was an American-born singer. Known as the "Queen of Rock 'n' Roll", she rose to prominence as the lead singer of the Ike & Tina Turner Revue before launching a successful career as a solo performer.

Born in Brownsville, Tennessee, Turner began her career with Ike Turner's Kings of Rhythm in 1957. She adopted the name 'Tina Turner' in 1960, and married Ike in 1962. Together they became "one of the most formidable live acts in history", having several hits together before disbanding in 1976 and divorcing in 1978. Turner's 1984 album Private Dancer launched "one of the greatest comebacks in music history"; it contained the hit song "What's Love Got to Do with It", which won the Grammy Award for Record of the Year and became her first and only number-one song on the Billboard Hot 100. She had several more hit singles in the 1980s and 1990s, and in 1988 her Break Every Rule World Tour broke the Guinness World Record for the largest paying audience (180,000) for a solo performer.

[...] Turner retired in 2009 after completing her Tina!: 50th Anniversary Tour, which is the 15th-highest-grossing tour of the 2000s. In 2018 she became the subject of a jukebox musical, Tina.

Turner has received several awards and honours, including 12 Grammy Awards, stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and the St. Louis Walk of Fame, two inductions into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, a Kennedy Center Honor,s and a Women of the Year award. She was the first black artist and first woman to be on the cover of Rolling Stone, and that magazine also ranked her among the 100 Greatest Artists of All Time. Having sold over 100 million records worldwide, Turner is one of the best-selling recording artists of all time.

• The lead sentence establishes that Turner was best-known as a singer.
• paragraph two summarises her music career.
• paragraph three mentions her record-breaking tour and jukebox musical, alongside some other achievements.
• paragraph four lists her awards and honours, which are mainly musical in nature and emphasise her importance.

A.D.Hope (talk) 20:29, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion the current lead goes into far more detail than it needs to, paricularly in listing several song titles in each paragraph when a shorter summary would be perfectly fine. I do understand the desire to fit in as much information as possible, but leads need to be concise and accessible so some things can be left to the body. Even after my edit I'm not sure if the lead complies exactly with MOS:LEADLENGTH, but any extra length is much more jusifiable as the lead covers Turner's major milestones with minimal padding. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

why not use your version but remove the section:

Turner also acted in the films Tommy (1975) and Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (1985). She published her biography, I, Tina in 1986, and in 1993 this was adapted into the biographical film What's Love Got to Do with It. Turner retired in 2009 after completing her Tina!: 50th Anniversary Tour, which is the 15th-highest-grossing tour of the 2000s. In 2018 she became the subject of a jukebox musical, Tina. Turner became a Swiss citizen in 2013, relinquishing her US citizenship in the same year.

--FMSky (talk) 20:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it would be a mistake to do so, as although Turner was incredibly famous as a musician her acting and autobiography are also notable. The sentence about her Swiss nationality is also necessary to avoid a clunky lead sentence.

If you have some attachment to the current lead I do understand, but I'm really not trying to shift the focus away from Tina Turner's music career, honest. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:42, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

what about this version? that imo works, and the part about her citizenship can stay in the note --FMSky (talk) 20:43, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

First, thank you for taking my edits constructively. I really do appreciate that and I hope they're an improvement. Personally I do think there's room to mention her most important non-musical achievements, maybe we should wait and see what other editors think? A.D.Hope (talk) 20:46, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

yes but we should probably keep the original until then -- FMSky (talk) 20:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

No problem, that's the risk of being BOLD! A.D.Hope (talk) 20:55, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Australian legacy

I don't know if this would be WP:Trivia but I am surprised there's not more mentioned in the article about Turner's influence in Australia.

I know there are brief mentions of her Aussie manager, her first solo concert tour and her role in Mad Max, but I feel her association with Australia is understated and should be more detailed. Her death was extensively reported in the Australian media yesterday, more than your average "a well known American performer has died. In other news.." kind of thing. There were lengthy obituaries on news & current affairs programs as well as detailed analysis of Turner's impact in Australia and a tribute before last night's NRL match, which wasn't surprising given that it was her involvement in the famous Australian rugby league advertising campaign of the late 80's/early 90's that is credited with helping turn the fortunes around for an entire national sporting code.

And then there's "The Nutbush". Seriously, what Australian kid hasn't done that dance at a school disco? There's not an Australian adult alive who hasn't done "The Nutbush" at a wedding. There was even an episode of The Voice Australia where the Aussie judges taught Rita Ora how to do "The Nutbush".

I'm Australian so I am obviously affected by bias, but does anyone think these Australian connections should be explored more within the article, particularly the rugby league campaign? 2001:8003:6C01:3100:9D6D:7747:9B86:5F49 (talk) 01:24, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Totally agree!! She is a cultural icon in Australia, particularly to fans of Rugby League. Ian Page (talk) 01:39, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Copyright of the name Tina Turner

It appears to me that this sentence should not contain the word "not": "Turner added his last name and trademarked the name as a form of protection, so that if Bullock left him, like his previous singers had, he could not replace her with another "Tina Turner".

The object of copyrighting the name Tina Turner was that Ike COULD replace her with another Tina Turner, if he chose to, because he owned the name. 2603:8090:C00:4DB2:440D:5C0A:B1D3:4D0A (talk) 11:58, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I think you are right. What does page 74-75 of Cawthorne & Turner (1999) actually say? It's not visible (for me) in the limited online view. But I see that the Ike Turner article, using the same ref, says: "He had the name "Tina Turner" trademarked, so that in case she left, another singer could perform under the same name". 205.239.40.3 (talk) 12:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The "not" was added yesterday by Melray082008, and the sentence was previously stable at the reverse meaning. I have undone the edit, as I agree that the change doesn't seem to make sense, but anyone with access to the source may wish to check and confirm. U-Mos (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

"American singer"

IMO, the first sentence should describe her as "an American singer", not "an American-born Swiss singer". From MOS:NATIONALITY, "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is currently a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable." Turner renounced her American citizenship after retiring, and for the entirety of her career and period of notability was an American citizen. Her only material released as a Swiss national were reissues and remixes. --Shivertimbers433 (talk) 21:28, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

This has already been discussed and I believe a consensus has been reached. But you still might want to add your voice to the "Lead section" section above. GA-RT-22 (talk) 02:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Media-reporting error

Most media reports have described the Villa Algonquin in Küsnacht as a property with ten buildings and ponds. But this description is of Tina Turner's large estate in Stäfa, at the village's extreme Eastern tip, as shown in satellite images. At the villa Turner was a tenant from 1998 onwards, remaining so through a change in ownership in 2020 until her death. The estate she bought in September 2021 but did not move to. Both are directly on Lake Zürich. Küsnacht is 8 km from Zürich. Stäfa is 25 km away from the city.

Double link

Ike Turner is, for whatever reason, linked twice in the lead. Only one link is necessary 79.66.89.36 (talk) 00:38, 30 May 2023 (UTC)