Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

Select a section:

WP:RD/H

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

June 30

Ingersoll Cutting Tools and Ingersoll Machine Tools

The International Metalworking Companies article mentions "Ingersoll Cutting Tools" without clarifying further. Googling that name gives the company website of https://www.ingersoll-imc.com/.

The Ingersoll Machine Tools article links to the company website of www.ingersoll.com.

1. Given that the two company websites are different, and the names are (slightly) different, are these two unrelated entities?

2. Assuming that they are currently unrelated, was there a point in the past where they shared some sort of connection, given the similarity of their names? Mel Gervais (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They both have headquarters in Rockford, Illinois, probably not a coincidence. Or is it? They have different street addresses, but one company may have a number of facilities. I see from that map that we can add "Ingersoll Milling Machine Co." into the mix as well. (But those two are in the same building, further examination of maps shows, so they are undoubtedly the same company.)

Further observations: Ingersoll Cutting Tools is way off on the other side of Rockford. I notice that Rockford also contains an Ingersoll Memorial Park. Here, opposite a full page advert for a boring machine, is the obituary of Winthrop Ingersoll. It says that Mr. Ingersoll gave to the city of Rockford the Clayton C. Ingersoll Memorial Park in that city. And just as well that it was in the same city, it could have been awkward if he gave them another city's park. So I wonder if Ingersoll is a name commonly used for places around Rockford due to connections with this family, and the (presumably more recently established?) Cutting Tools company may be named Ingersoll just because of this established custom. Card Zero (talk) 22:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Mel Gervais (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure they're separate, but I still feel like I'm guessing until I get the origin story of the Cutting Tools one. Certainly there have been plenty of other Ingersoll things in Rockford, such as the Rockford Institute and its Ingersoll Prize for being extremely conservative. Card Zero (talk) 23:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another data point: "Ingersoll Production Systems" has a website at http://www.ingersollprodsys.com, and their site says:

Judge Jonathan Ingersoll purchased an interest in W.R. Eynon & Co., a local machine tool company in Cleveland, Ohio.  In 1887, his son Winthrop Ingersoll took over the business and in 1891, he moved the company to Rockford, Illinois.  Ingersoll was born.  The first shop was only 【15 × 46  m】 and employeed 19 people.[2]

Same city as the other two companies. Mel Gervais (talk) 23:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another data point: Judge Jonathan Ingersoll was the father of Winthrop Ingersoll. [3] Mel Gervais (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC).[reply]

Yeah, that's our Ingersoll Milling Machine Co / Ingersoll Machine Tools / Ingersoll Heliport / Ingersoll Memorial Disc Golf Course one. They claim they had something to do with the Magellen Telescope. Washing it, possibly. I see they also made some sort of 52-foot tall fabricating device to help Jeff Bezos build his rockets. It's Ingersoll Cutting Tools (IMC subsiduary) who are the obscure ones. I'm imagining some renegade member of the Ingersoll family decided to take off to a less reputable part of town to set up his own engineering company. I don't know.

OK, here's the story. 110th Congress, 1st Session. The Israelis bought out Ingersoll Cutting Tools, built a $350 million campus in Rockford. The company was just sold to Warren Buffett, so it is a very viable company. The Italians, Comuzzi Brothers, bought out Ingersoll Cutting Tool Division. I think that's a mistake, I think he meant Machine Tool Division the second time. (Mr. Manzullo gets it right on another occasion, but supplies less backstory.) So yeah, it was a "division", and the whole business was in trouble and got carved up by foreign investors. Card Zero (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On the website of Ingersoll Cutting Tools one can see that they descend from the Ingersol Milling Machine Company founded by Winthrop Ingersoll, and that the Ingersoll Cutting Tool division was sold to IMC in 2001. Ingersoll Machine Tools (with the cutting division cut out) was acquired by the Camozzi Group (wait, what happened to WHAAOE?) and merged into its Camozzi Machine Tools division. --Lambiam 13:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have personal experience of this Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 5#Car industry, revive old car models. In addition to exporting Land Rovers, the firm also imported Yugoslav reisling ("Wine industry questions." on the same page). Not a question of "some renegade member" of the family deciding to set up his own company, the proprietors simply fell out [4]. 2A00:23C7:E529:8D01:5C84:D83A:62D3:7C (talk) 14:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 1

Carmina Burana cover image

Does anyone recognize this collage on the cover of Carmina Burana (Orff) (~1960)? —Tamfang (talk) 00:05, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's some copies on discogs with different choirs but the same picture, and they credit the design to de:Fritz Blankenhorn (Grafiker). So, one possibility is that it has some connection to Orff or the Carmina Burana, another is that it's an original Blankenhorn collage. I have an impression of bits of Rembrandt, a photo of a park bench, and possibly a section of Karl Marx's beard. Card Zero (talk) 00:34, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This back cover has "Cover collage: Phillip" and then the longish surname is of course not legible... Oh, the actual release page gives the name as Philip Featheringill. --Wrongfilter (talk) 09:44, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well found! Discogs can show other covers by the same artist: this one has the same style, a collage with a man with black cutout pieces on his face. Card Zero (talk) 10:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Featheringill ran a jazz label before going into the cover art business. Session Records [nl] and here. DuncanHill (talk) 10:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all! I had supposed it pre-existed the recording. —Tamfang (talk) 20:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Osman_I#"Buried_in_Söğüt"

Discussion on the authenticity of Ottoman graves, your input is welcome (there). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

World War I and World War II

Why First World War has no prime villain like Hitler?

Why Japanese war crimes is not discussed like Nazi war crimes and the ruler of Japan is not hated like Hitler?

Why East Europeans and Ukrainians taking part in mass torture of other ethnic people of same race is not discussed much in media and films?

Why the role of non White soldiers in British Army and French Army is not shown in many many Hollywood movies based on world wars?

Why the mass rape of German women and Italian women after the end of war, is not shown in Hollywood movies based on World wars? HangChanDraft (talk) 10:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For your second question, see Japanese war crimes. HiLo48 (talk) 10:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are no prerequisites for "prime villains" for world wars.
Afaik, Emperor Hirohito didn't institute an official policy of committing war crimes/atrocities; that was left up to the generals' and rank-and-file's discretion. And, not being systematic, it wasn't done on an industrial scale (the Rape of Nanking notwithstanding).
Western media and cinema focus mostly on what the Western allies did; that's what Western readers and audiences prefer (and pay for).
See above.
See above. The mass rape of German women was perpetrated by the Russians. There was no mass rape of Italians afaik, since they (a) switched sides and (b) hadn't committed the atrocities the Germans did on the Eastern Front. Also, mass rapes aren't what most viewers want to see (and would be quite difficult to portray anyway). Clarityfiend (talk) 10:52, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) For your first question, Kaiser Wilhelm II was widely vilefied in the Allied countries amd there was considerable popular pressure to have him tried and executed. [5] Unlike the Second World War however, the start of the war was an accumulation of associated events that led to a conflict that nobody really wanted. Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) It was necessary to keep Hirohito in place so as to persuade the Japanese to surrender and avoid a costly invasion of Japan. To that end, it was important for the Allies to portray Hirohito as a European-style constitutional monarch who had no power to influence government policy. The truth is still being debated; see Hirohito#Accountability for Japanese war crimes and Chrysanthemum taboo. Alansplodge (talk) 11:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's a drama-film on that, Emperor (2012 film). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You don't know about mass rape of Italians. Right from childhood, due to Hollywood movies showing only British fighting German, I didn't know about this. Marocchinate — Preceding unsigned comment added by HangChanDraft (talk • contribs) 11:03, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mass rapes of c. 2 million Germans compared to c. 2000 Italians? Not the same thing, not by a long shot. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:44, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about Japan in world war starts and end with Hiroshima and Nagasaki and assumed they were victims, but recently I found that similar to German public, the Japanese were supporting what their army did like Japanese's schoolgirls celebrating mass rapes of Chinese.

This is worst like Nazi doctors- Unit 731

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4913066/japanese-troops-killing-british-sikh-pow-target-ww2-pictures/

Comfort women

I can list many more that I found recently, all whitewashed my USA media and Hollywood. Hollywood has made uncountable World war movies and they will continue making from Where Eagles Dare to saving Private Ryan.

Category:African-American war films? Alansplodge (talk) 11:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese's war crimes are not less evil than Nazi. But Hollywood did not make big budget movies as they do for Germán villains. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HangChanDraft (talk • contribs) 11:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Bridge on the River Kwai? Empire of the Sun? Unbroken? Card Zero (talk) 12:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

King Rat? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not restricted to Hollywood, but Category:Works about Japanese war crimes may have something you consider interesting. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And just like the Nuremberg Trials were organized to judge German war crimes, the Tokyo War Crimes Trials served the same purpose regarding Japanese war crimes. Xuxl (talk) 15:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Japan didn't have a single evil dictator figure (though Americans during WW2 certainly hated both Hirohito and Hideki Tojo), but it had cliques of militarists whose policies certainly had some evil aspects by the 1930s... AnonMoos (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As for the role of non-white soldiers in mainstream war movies, 1917 (2019 film) was criticized by historians for over-emphasizing the participation of Black and Sikh soldiers in the British Army fighting in France. Cullen328 (talk) 21:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Good film, I thought. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:24, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But the Indian Army infantry divisions were withdrawn from the Western Front in October 1915, leaving only the cavalry that were mainly held in reserve. See Indian Army during World War I. Vanishingly few ethnic Indians served in the British Army; large scale Indian migration to Britain began only in the 1960s. Similarly Dunkirk (2017 film) shows British Sikh officers, when the only Indian Army units in the BEF were four Animal Transport Companies [6]. Alansplodge (talk) 12:29, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Why First World War has no prime villain like Hitler?" Because the Causes of World War I are entirely different from the Causes of World War II, and anyway Joseph Stalin was rather worse in his own way than the Austrian corporal.
"Why the role of non White soldiers in British Army and French Army is not shown in many many Hollywood movies based on world wars?" You might as well watch Transformers movies for the information they contain about the real world.
Hollywood = Entertainment + Profit ≠ Truth. MinorProphet (talk) 20:51, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 2

after movie drinks

When I was in my teens back in the 1980s, I used to fly TWA. As part of their in-flight entertainment, they showed movies. When the closing credits were rolling, flight attendants served lemonade to passengers. I was wondering what after-movie drinks, if any, were served to passengers aboard Pan Am flights. Anyone know?2603:7000:8641:810E:EC94:8C1C:C72B:3835 (talk) 07:01, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I flew the TWA route from SF to NY in the 1980s. I don't recall ever receiving lemonade. Were you in first class? Viriditas (talk) 10:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I was in coach.2603:7000:8641:810E:338:32DA:589A:8A1B (talk) 01:16, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the 80s, they had full drink service. Previous to deregulation, the service was very different. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 21:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian Fraktur source on 1917 election

Can anyone decipher the first word in this Estonian Fraktur text? I have the rest of the article under control but I cannot match the first word with any village or area in the county. (ping Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM, Lambiam). -- Soman (talk) 10:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is Reiust, seen here, the elative of Reiu. For a similar use of the elative, see Londonist here, page 2, rightmost column, above the middle. --Lambiam 12:59, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History of the Conservatory of Flowers

In our article on the Conservatory of Flowers it says:

During the winter of 1995–1996, a series of large storms exacerbated the ongoing deterioration of the wood structure. The 100 mph (161 km/h) winds blew out 30,000 fogged white glass panes in the conservatory, shattered the white glass dome, and weakened the structure. In addition, 15 percent of the plant collection was lost due to exposure to the cold, wintry air and flying glass.

I was living in the city at that time, and I remember the squalls, but I don’t recall the wind. I also remember that the conservatory was shutdown. Does anyone have any good links to news coverage of this storm? Was the wind storm centered in Golden Gate Park, or did it damage other parts of the city? Viriditas (talk) 23:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Viriditas, my father was employed by a general contractor in San Francisco called Anderson Contructors that ran the renovation of that splendid building from 1978 to 1981, so I have long been familiar with the structural problems of this beautiful edifice. I have toured it several times. I have a son who was born in 1989 with a variety of birth defects including a heart valve defect that was scheduled to be surgically corrected at the UC San Francisco Medical Center on Parnassus the day of that storm. The procedure went fine and we spent the night at my wife's aunt's home nearby in South San Francisco. We drove through Golden Gate Park the following day, and witnessed the widespread distruction. I went by the conservatory a week or two later, and the damage was shocking. My recollection is that this particular windstorm came from the opposite direction than usual. Strong winds hitting San Francisco usually come off the Pacific Ocean generally from the west, and the trees are grown and naturally shaped to deal with these prevailing winds. This particular storm blew in from the northeast, and the trees were unprepared for the onslaught. Countless trees fell and may more lost branches that were flung as projectiles. I am reasonably sure that the damage was more widespread than just San Francisco, and must have affected other cities like Berkeley and Oakland and many others as well. I am certain that the archives of the San Francisco Chronicle would have extensive coverage of this particular storm, but I am no longer a subscriber. Cullen328 (talk) 08:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing, Cullen. Isn't it amazing how the longest lasting memories are the ones associated with emotions? That's the key to the art of memory, by the way. In any case, I will take a look at the Chronicle archives. It's just a little upsetting to me that I don't remember how damaging this storm was, but given that you were so close to it (UCSF is relatively close to the Conservatory, maybe five minutes by car), it makes sense that you do. Viriditas (talk) 08:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps A storm to remember—25 years ago, powerful tempest pounded Bay Area about the California weather on December 12, 1995. Alansplodge (talk) 12:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. That's a great place to start, but says nothing about the conservatory, so I haven't added it. But I will continue to look. Viriditas (talk) 07:36, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I lived in Sutro Heights then, and that may be the storm that provoked me to say to my flatmate, "There be times when I'm just as pleased not to be livin' in a quaint old fishin' village!" But I don't recall any damage other than in the Park; indeed my only specific memory is of seeing a huge tree knocked down in the Panhandle. —Tamfang (talk) 20:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That kind of touches on my original concern. The link provided up above says that 1000 trees were downed by the storm in GGP. I'm wondering if this was an unusual weather phenomenon of some kind like a highly localized microburst. Although I don't know much about meteorology, where I live now in Hawaii, seems to have microbursts as part of their normal weather. In fact, before moving here, I had never visually seen a microburst before. But for whatever reason, you can visually see them here quite regularly, probably because of the ocean and the horizon providing line of sight. I'm wondering if that's what SF experienced. Viriditas (talk) 07:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Another alternative is that you've forgotten it. In the UK, the Great storm of 1987 is well known, but an almost-equally destructive storm in January 1990 is mostly forgotten (I didn't know it was called the Burns' Day Storm until I Googled it just now). I remember it because I was on a Venture Scout night-hike which had to be abandoned, but nobody else seems able to recall it. Alansplodge (talk) 20:18, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I’m sure you’re right. Like Cullen up above, I have distinct, unambiguous, long-term memories of weather events where something impacted me directly, such as getting stuck in a blizzard and being buried in six feet of snow, or driving through a flooded valley and having my engine go dead, etc. I also think the damage in the storm in question might have been highly localized, which is why I can’t recall it personally, as I lived in another neighborhood outside that impact zone. Viriditas (talk) 03:02, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 3

Formally entitled "dictator"

Aside from Roman dictators, how many governments have formally been entitled "dictatorship" (either in English or its equivalent in another language), and/or how many government officials have formally held the title of "dictator"? Dictator#Modern usage in formal titles mentions three examples, but I'm unclear whether this is exhaustive, or if they're just three random examples. Of course, keyword searches are extremely difficult, since "dictator" is a title informally applied to many government leaders. Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The 1920s/1930s trend of supreme leader titles wasn't based on the literal word "dictator", but it didn't do much to veil the autocratic reality either: duce (Italian) / conducator (Romanian) / fuehrer (German) / caudillo (Spanish). In Lebanon, Antoun Saadeh imitated this trend with the Arabic word za`im, and no doubt there were others... AnonMoos (talk) 03:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Prefix search also turns up Dictator Executive Commission in Warsaw and Centrocaspian Dictatorship... AnonMoos (talk) 04:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also the Despotate of Epirus (with a separate Despot of Epirus page just for the title)... AnonMoos (talk) 07:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note that "despot", in that historical context, has nothing of the implicit meaning of that term in modern English. It simply means "lord"/"ruler". "Despotate" is no more equivalent to "dictatorship" than any other medieval title such as "lordship", "duchy" or "kingdom". Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I know almost nothing about medieval Greek, but in ancient Greek, both the words Δεσποτης and Δεσποτικος sometimes had negative connotations when used in a political sense... AnonMoos (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Communist governments have commonly claimed the mantle of the Dictatorship of the proletariat, constituting control of society led by the mass of working people without significant property or capital who need to sell their labor day-to-day in order to survive. In practice, this has usually been expressed as a dictatorship of Communist elites, brutally led by people like Joseph Stalin. Cullen328 (talk) 07:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

True, but their officials haven't been entitled "Dictator", and the dictatorship of the proletariat is a philosophy, not the official name of the state. One may similarly speak of Communist despots, but there's similarly no Despotate of Communist Place as there was a Despotate of the Morea. Nyttend (talk) 08:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The OED says "Equivalents of dictator in other languages were sometimes used during the 19th cent. and later in the formal titles of heads of state, and the English word has been used to render these; more generally, however, the word suggests oppressive or totalitarian rule, and hence is rarely used in a neutral sense" but alas it does not give us examples. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Banned user
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
See benevolent dictatorship. 2A02:C7B:208:F300:29DA:3E43:4852:DE0E (talk) 10:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but again, not many of them have used "dictator"-or-its-translations as their formal titles. Nyttend (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistically, “Dictator” means “Speaker”… so I suppose one could say that the office of “Speaker of the House” would fit the question asked. Of course the connotations are VERY different. Blueboar (talk) 11:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Of course a man who uses his Dictaphone is also a dictator. DuncanHill (talk) 11:40, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's a different meaning; it's simply one who speaks what's already been done (whether speaking for an assembly or reciting the law), while "dictator" is someone who speaks to rule by himself. Nyttend (talk) 21:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

OED - "classical Latin dictātor magistrate having plenary powers, appointed at Rome in times of emergency, Italian municipal officer, in post-classical Latin also person who dictates to a writer (late 4th cent.), author, writer (6th cent.)" DuncanHill (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

After having been appointed Dictador Supremo de la República del Paraguay by the Congress of Paraguay in 1814, originally thought to be a temporal position, José Gaspar Rodríguez de Francia was also appointed Dictador Perpetuo de la República del Paraguay in 1816. He held both titles, styled in merged form as Dictador Supremo y Perpetuo de la República del Paraguay, until his death in 1840. --Lambiam 13:56, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Leaders of the Polish anti-Russian uprisings of 1830 and 1863 used "dyktator powstania" ("dictator of the uprising") as their official title. The native Polish word "naczelnik" has a similar sense and was used by Tadeusz Kościuszko (leader of the uprising of 1794) and by Józef Piłsudski )after Poland regained independence in 1918). — Kpalion^(talk) 10:15, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

They were not government officials, though. See also Benevolent dictator for life, a title likewise not bestowed on government officials. --Lambiam 10:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they were. They set up temporary governments and wielded actual executive power while the uprisings lasted. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:26, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Law, Lloyd George, and dictatorship

Our article David Lloyd George contains a quotation from Bonar Law, "He can be dictator for life if he wishes", dated to 1918 and sourced to a 2011 magazine article by Vernon Bogdanor. Can anyone help me find an earlier source for it? It's not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, nor yet in Brack and Ingham's Dictionary of Liberal Quotations. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 10:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In this book The Decline and Fall of Lloyd George I found Had not Bonar Law himself declared a short while before that Lloyd George, if he wanted to, could be Prime Minister for life? - which obviously isn't good enough to pinpoint the quote, but might suggest that it didn't really originally include "dictator". The context of "a short while before" seems to be the 1918 United Kingdom general election. Card Zero (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That does sound more familiar. DuncanHill (talk) 10:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a book Fatal influence: the impact of Ireland on British Politics which has an entire chapter about Lloyd George titled "Prime Minister for Life". By common consent, the victory belonged to one man — Lloyd George, and to him, alone. These were the new realities that prompted Bonar Law to make his remarkable observation about a man who, in the past, had been his opponent but who was now his partner. Surveying this radically changed, this ironically changed, political landscape, Bonar Law said of Lloyd George: “He can be Prime Minister for life if he likes”. This seems to place the quote after the election. There's a footnote which cites Lord Beaverbrook, Men and Power: 1917-1918 (New York 1956), p. 325. Card Zero (talk) 10:54, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

An article in a 1952 number of The Listener, of which Google Books only gives a snippet view, includes this passage:

When I declared in print: Lloyd George must go if he refuses to fulfill his promises of Empire freedom in trade – Bonar Law assured me "Lloyd George can be Prime Minister for life if he wants to". Bonar Law was wrong. Within two years, the Tory leader was compelled to break and crush Lloyd George, not only in parliament, but in the polls too.

Elsewhere in the article the author says that he himself was "Canadian Government representative to the Army of Canada serving overseas, and also a member of the British House of Commons". That sounds like only one man to me. Can we, just between ourselves, conclude that the remark was made to Beaverbook himself, even though in the 1956 book he doesn't mention that? --Antiquary (talk) 12:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From the snippets I've been able to extract the article appears to be a review by Beaverbrook of The History of The Times, in the form of Beaverbrook explaining how he was always right and honest and honourable and everybody else were schemers and shysters and liars. Beaverbrook wasn't above claiming to have been involved in conversations that he wasn't present for, so I would be wary of saying that Law said it to him without third-party confirmation. DuncanHill (talk) 12:29, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Mary Had a Little Lamb" vs. "Merrily We Roll Along"

Why do piano lessons books often teach children the tune of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" (even if that's what the children know the tune technically is) as "Merrily We Roll Along"?? (Interestingly enough, Wikipedia itself reveals there's a song with the latter title, but it clearly isn't the same song at all; the song piano lessons books teach children when they teach children the tune of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" is clearly a song that goes:

Merrily we roll along
Roll along, roll along
Merrily we roll along
O'er the deep blue sea

...which clearly isn't the song Wikipedia's article is about. (Please keep in mind that what I want to know is why "Merrily We Roll Along" is a lyric favored over "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in piano lessons books.) Georgia guy (talk) 17:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please give evidence for your unsupported claim that "Merrily We Roll Along" is favoured over "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in piano lesson books. --Viennese Waltz 19:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Experience. Georgia guy (talk) 19:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's not evidence. --Viennese Waltz 09:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have articles Mary Had a Little Lamb and Merrily We Roll Along (song) and Goodnight, Ladies. DuncanHill (talk) 19:55, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The children's song originated as the chorus of Goodnight, Ladies. --Lambiam 21:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Mary Had a Little Lamb needs some changes if someone who reads music could confirm. According to JSTOR 40214696 the 1830 Lowell Mason "Mary's Lamb" is a different tune. "Mary Had a Little Lamb" in Carmina Collegensia ~~1876~~1868 was apparently the first setting to "Goodnight, Ladies" and with the repetition in the lyrics. fiveby(zero) 21:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I went to the URL and it revealed that originally the song (in 1876) was a medley of its melody familiar today and a tune that is now "The Old Gray Mare". Georgia guy (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

oops, first edition of Carmina Collegensia was 1868, a year after "Goodnight, Ladies" first printed 1867, sung by Yale Yachting Club?[7] fiveby(zero) 22:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article The Old Gray Mare. DuncanHill (talk) 21:50, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. Please compare its tune with the second part of the melody the URL Fiveby showed. Georgia guy (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reminds me a little of The Boy I Love is Up in the Gallery. DuncanHill (talk) 22:00, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There are two s different "Merrily we roll along..." songs. Maybe a disambiguation page is needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So Mason's melody is not that of the MHaLL we know; it does not even resemble it. The current melody is sung to lyrics with plenty of repetitions ("Mary had a little lamb / Little lamb, little lamb / Mary had a little lamb") not found in the original poem and also not in Mason's setting. Can we conclude, with the author of the Western Folklore article on JSTOR, that the current melody was copied from Christy's song? --Lambiam 23:11, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Here are "Good Night" in Carmina Yalensia 1867 and "Farewell Ladies" undated but attributed to Christy if they help. Horace Reynolds the author of the 1952 Christian Science Monitor article does say For reasons which I won't go into here, I think that “Good-Night, Ladies” was the first, and “Mary’s Lamb” the second, setting of this now well-known air. But where did the Yale boys of the 1860's get the air? and suggests there was probably earlier sheet music now lost. He also hints at a possible answer for Georgia guy with This setting [Mason's], now traditional in England, is not the setting which is traditional on this side of the Atlantic... fiveby(zero) 12:20, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lester S. Levy says 1843 for "Farewell Ladies", don't know if that's helpful, i've been lost as to which 'air' since "The Old Gray Mare" was mentioned. fiveby(zero) 13:25, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The words of "Mary Had a Little Lamb" were written in 1830, according to The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes pp. 299-300, by Iona and Peter Opie (Archive.org., free registration needed). Plus lots of interesting info. MinorProphet (talk) 21:19, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From my 1960s London childhood, I can only recall it as a spoken rhyme. Alansplodge (talk) 20:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 4

Religion and gambling

Please do not delete this post this is a genuine theological problem as far as I can tell and is a genuine question I am not using it as a forum I’m using it to ask a question.

Religions prohibit gambling but it seems as though religion itself can be a gamble. Choosing one or many gods out of the tens of thousands that have ever existed is taking a huge bet with your immortal soul as in the words of the Simpsons “what if we chose the wrong religion. Each week we just make god madder and madder.”

Is there a name for this conundrum and any relevant debate in relation to it. How might a theologian explain it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.98.87.232 (talk) 23:32, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pascal's wager is where you should start. DuncanHill (talk) 23:39, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Implicit in "taking a huge bet with your immortal soul" is the assumption that there is such a thing. What demonstrable evidence have you personally encountered suggesting that this is so? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 00:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All spiritual evidence is experiential rather than demonstrative. Folly Mox (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Man is the only animal with the true religion - hundreds of 'em!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:52, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Religions prohibit a lot of things that can be deleterious to the social fabric they're embedded in. Lots of religions tell us not to kill, steal, sleep around, take too many drugs, etc. Gambling can destabilise families' financial well-being. "Picking the right religion" is not something most religions would consider "gambling", since they have an axiomatic view of truth and falsity in spiritual matters. Folly Mox (talk) 02:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tangentially related to your question is the neurological connection between religion and gambling. Apparently there are forms of obsessive–compulsive disorder which lead to both religious scrupulosity and compulsive gambling. I'm afraid I don't know the answer to this question, but it would be interesting to see if many compulsive gamblers are also religious. There may be a neurophysiological connection found, in let's say, the study of how the gambler's fallacy operates in the brain. Nigel Barber argues that there is a connection between religion and gambling, however tenuous. Newer research seems to suggest that inclinations towards religion and gambling in the brain have more in common with substance use disorder rather than OCD, however controversial that might sound ("religion activates the same reward-processing brain circuits as sex, drugs, and other addictive activities"). Viriditas (talk) 08:12, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that your original premise is correct; in the UK, churches often raise funds with raffles or tombolas. I'm not much of a Biblical scholar, but I don't recall an injuction against gambling, and although usury is frowned upon, the banking and finance sectors thrive in many Christian countries. Alansplodge (talk) 08:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if I've contributed to any confusion with my tangential comment about the neurological basis of religion and gambling. I think this discussion ended with DuncanHill's first comment pointing to Pascal's wager. Viriditas (talk) 09:08, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well I find it interesting that science might come to a direction prone to materialy point back at Pascal's simple conclusions and that, without losing sight that the man was from an era very much focusing on mastering the laws of statistics. Monotheism also has something to do with infinity after all, on the other hand, in weighing the relationship between tombolas and addictions, if addictions have something to do with division someone could arrive to that addictions are more on the side of polytheism than to the side of monotheism. --Askedonty (talk) 10:00, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further. – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:07, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Religion is not so much something you choose as something you are born into. Most children are raised in the faith of their mother. Conversion from one religion to another is very rare and a highly contentious process (see the fourth link at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 27#Question for American and European Christians). 2A02:C7B:301:3D00:10CE:42BE:967B:27F0 (talk) 11:15, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Next to the assumption of afterlife, the question also hinges on the assumption of the existence of beings who can determine the nature and quality of a deceased person's afterlife and care one whit about what they believed. Not all Gods are as jealous as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. --Lambiam 12:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've conflated a couple separate meanings of "gamble". Religions that forbid gambling are forbidding the most common sense of the word, the financial activity that's the subject of the gambling article. The broader sense of "taking a risk" is significantly different, and it would seem a bit bizarre for a religion to forbid all risk. Nyttend (talk) 23:24, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Verily. They're all about faith in things that can't be seen with the eyes. To some, that is the riskiest possible undertaking. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 5

Fort Clinton and... Fort Clinton?

So there's Fort Clinton and Fort Clinton (West Point). It seems that Fort Clinton (West Point) is more notable than the other Fort Clinton since it keeps popping up in my search results (correct me if I'm wrong), and I've always heard it called "West Point". Though I want to make edits to Fort Clinton (West Point), having both articles like this could screw up the search results. I'm thinking to move Fort Clinton (West Point) to something else (maybe West Point (fort)), or if it even needs to be moved. Any advice? ‍ ‍ Relativity ‍ ‍ 04:59, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We should call it what the cited reliable sources call it. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But see also WP:COMMONNAME. This discussion would probably be better on the article's talk page and/or at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. Alansplodge (talk) 08:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was yet another Fort Clinton, located in what is now NYC's Central Park. Can you explain the results of which searches could be screwed up by having both article names as they are now? When people now use the term "West Point", they usually are referring to the military academy. If another article name is warranted, I think Fort West Point should be considered a candidate.^[8][9][10] --Lambiam 11:41, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd make the first one Fort Clinton (1776). —Tamfang (talk) 18:54, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 6

Monck after Laing's Nek

The picture Floreat Etona! by Elizabeth Thompson depicts an incident at the Battle of Laing's Nek, when Robert Elwes "shouted to another Eton boy (an Adjutant of the 58th whose horse had been shot), 'Come along Monck! Floreat Etona! We must be in the front rank!’ And he was shot immediately". Do we know anything more about Monck? Our article on the picture says he survived the battle. What became of him after? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This page of Notes and Queries calls him "The Hon. Richard Charles Stanley Mountjoy Monck, 2nd son of 4th Viscount Monck of Charleville, Enniskerry" and says that he died on 13 December 1892. (He's listed in the "Personal life" section of the article about his father that I linked in the preceding sentence.) Deor (talk) 17:13, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I wonder how he died. According to an earlier answer in N&Q "Monck told me later that there had been no mention of Eton at the time". DuncanHill (talk) 17:22, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

John Brown's Body and Carl Gustaf's hag

According to our article Battle Hymn of the Republic the Finnish military are wont to sing Kalle-Kustaan muori makaa hiljaa haudassaan, ja yli haudan me marssimme näin ("Carl Gustaf's hag lies silently in her grave, and we're marching over the grave like this") to the tune of John Brown's Body. Who's the Carl Gustaf and who's his hag? I did think of Charles X Gustav & Hedwig Eleanora but why would it be them particularly? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 22:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Kalle-Kustaa could refer to two Swedish kings, Carl X Gustav (1654 - 1660) and the present king Carl XVI Gustaf, or it may refer to Kalle-Kustaa Korkki, Chief Inspector with the International Oil Company and a fictive character created by Aarne Haapakoski, a.k.a. Outsider, in 1945 for a beloved Finnish radio drama titled »The Adventures of Kalle-Kustaa Korkki«. Of course, neither of these references makes any sense and the true meaning of the song remains a mystery."[11] --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 23:06, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We may need Jungian analysis for this conundrum. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC) [reply]

There's Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim, the hero of Finnish Independence and the Winter War. Alansplodge (talk) 08:56, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unidentified 3000's BCE figure

I found this entry in PDB about a individual called Sanji but i have not been able to find anything about this historical figure. Did i just encountered a hoax? Trade (talk) 22:47, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Trade. That website is pretty much the opposite of a reliable source. Google Scholar comes up with nothing. Cullen328 (talk) 23:04, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Who was Abdelkadir Chanderil?

Our article Death and state funeral of Winston Churchill says Abdelkadir Chanderil attended Churchill's funeral as President of Algeria. Our article List of heads of state of Algeria says Ahmed Ben Bella was President at the time. Our article List of dignitaries at the state funeral of John F. Kennedy has Abdelkadir Chanderil as President of the [Algerian] Republic, but again Ben Bella appears to have been President at the time. So, who was Abdelkadir Chanderil? Why did he get to go to these funerals? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:54, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We have an abandoned and deleted Draft:Abdelkader Chanderli. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 00:26, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

His obit (in French.) --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 00:29, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

According to Britannica, Abdel Kader Chanderli (note spelling difference) was the Algerian Ambassador to the UK in 1962. Churchill died in 1965 so I suppose he was still in office then. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:27, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is Britannica giving us different content? On that link I read that he was Ambassador of Algeria to the United Nations, 1962, and nothing about the UK. DuncanHill (talk) 01:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, my mistake. I was expecting to see that he had some official connection to the UK, and that's what I read. But it's not what's written. Sorry. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

July 7

Mongol destruction of cities

Are there instances of cities completely destroyed by the Mongols (like Genghis Khan or Kublai Khan) that never recovered and were actually erased from the map? 79.22.6.128 (talk) 09:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities