User talk:Clovermoss
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Software development challenges
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I'm following up on your comment here, because it's not directly related to your main point (I haven't looked into the details of spending, but I'm certain software development can be done more effectively, because that's almost universally true). I can't comment much on the WMF's software project management, since I haven't followed it (though from what little I've seen regarding its interactions with the community, I do feel it can be improved). There are a lot of challenges to it, though. The MediaWiki developers strive to support a broad set of devices with different levels of technology and Internet connectivity, and users with different levels of knowledge and limitations. Every user has their own set of priorities on what they would like developed, and it's hard to figure out what features would satisfy the most people. Free software lacks the "will users pay for this?" filter to drive feature development. This isn't all bad, but it means there's less urgency to figure out future plans and to complete features. Taking talk pages as an example: they use the same wikitext markup as in articles (as I understand it, discussion used to just be held at the bottom of articles). Some editors are adamant about preserving this, so there's no difference in editing an article or a discussion. Many editors were understandably displeased by the WMF's attempt to develop an infinite-scrolling, threaded discussion forum interface, and are now very wary of changes. The talk pages project is trying to navigate a middle ground where incremental changes are layered on top of the wikitext conventions. When seeking input on MediaWiki on Wikipedia, you get feedback from a self-selected set of interested users, and there's no guarantee you'll get be able to get prolonged engagement from them to provide ongoing feedback. You can use telemetry (monitoring of user actions) to gain insight, and from things that WhatamIdoing have posted, it seems the development team looks at feature usage and editing patterns. You can use focus groups, but with a community as expansive and anonymous as Wikipedia's, it's hard to get a representative sample. There's also a significant portion of the community who think the WMF should provide the bare essential functions, and let the community develop everything else. Recall Levivich expressed his desire for a third-party Wikipedia editor to be developed (though as a competitor to the in-house provided editing interfaces). Numerous other editors think all visual editor development is a waste of time. In summary, I agree the WMF should try to do more to overcome the challenges it faces, but I acknowledge that the challenges are daunting and limit what can be done. isaacl (talk) 04:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
You stated what I was trying to explain a lot better than I could. People are capable of teaching themselves what Wikipedia is about but a lot of this information isn't easy to navigate. If you figure out how to do that, you have a good foundation. But there's a million little things that can kind of get in your way at the same time? If you don't edit somewhere more controversial, it's like your edits go into a void unless you actively seek input from others (which is what I did). If you don't do anything problematic you could basically go unnoticed for years if you fix a typo here and there occasionally, even if you may be interested in contributing more if you knew how. I had a similar experience with TVtropes, actually, now that I'm thinking of it. I was able to fix typos because that's something that was easy enough to fix but I never really did much beyond that because I couldn't figure out how CamelCase and everything else in their editing interface worked. You might find the previous discussion about new editor experiences that Levivich, HLHJ and I had here interesting [3]. I had an experience that was within what is suggested at welcome the newcomers. My understanding is that Levivich's wasn't as welcoming based off the comments there, although maybe they reflect on their experiences differently now? I can't speak for other people. My first edit was literally fixing a typo, but I was also really insistent on asking other people for advice right from the start. I'd say the main benefit my previous wikiHow experience had (apart from some familarity with MediaWiki format, even if it wasn't really enough to not get confused about many things here) is that I was aware that Wikipedia also likely had a community "behind the scenes". This meant I could ask for help before I did anything I was unsure of and I didn't really ruffle any feathers. A lack of feedback isn't nessecarily a good thing or a bad thing, but it can be disheartening and it can also lead to problems down the road. Maybe it's just me, but I'm still working on my confidence in that I actually know what I'm doing here and trying to alleviate some of the gaps on what I know I'm not that good at. I think part of this has to do with having really high expectations for myself in general, but at the same time even though I've spent a lot of time lurking/reading what other people say and trying to figure out what works here, actually doing things based on that judgement can get a bit more complicated. Clovermoss (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Arbitrary break since this conversation is huge and still ongoing@MMiller (WMF): Thanks for getting back to me. I'm trying to take it easy on myself due to stressful real life events, but I do have some thoughts about what you just said. So... I think a generalization I've seen is that new editors experiences are either good, really bad, or just kind of apathetic. If you're doing something wrong, you're definitely going to get feedback because people are focused on minimizing harm or just keeping with established consensus that you might not be aware of because there's been however many discussions over the past two decades. I wasn't aware of MOS:CELESTIALBODIES until today when I was like "it's kind of weird that Sun is capitalized sometimes" and my change was undone. I didn't know that and it was a good faith mistake, but you're way more likely to have something like that happen if you don't even know that the MOS is a thing or how to reference it. There's also the whole "Wikipedia abbreviations" thing. We basically have a dedicated subculture where things can be a bit different than their standard English meanings or even inherently contradictory. A lot of the essay pages are like that too. They have a disclaimer that they can represent widespread or minitory viewpoints, but it's difficult to tell when you're reading them just where anything might fall on that. Then there's individual discretion on where to draw the lines. There's a million links to everything. I think something I have agreed with in regards to Sdkb is that streamlining welcome templates is a good idea because it gives people some sort of basis to be like "this is what you do" that doesn't contradict itself or give you massive walls of text that prompt you to TLDR. I think there's also just some general issues with banner blindness too. A lot of stuff about the Wikipedia community and editing and everything (especially on the main page) is hidden by things that you basically instinctually ignore if you grew up in the world where the Internet was a thing. You pay the same amount of attention to them as you do to pop-up ads... something that's just not worth your time and doesn't even register. Like I'm looking at the bottom of this very page and I'm like "oh there's this toolbar with characters like → I just straight up ignored for years". There's also a lot of issues with the mobile version of the website. I'm like Cullen328 in the "when I edit on my phone (like right now) I use desktop view for basic functionality" way. Going back to my good efforts disappear into a void comment earlier on in the thread, the impact feature that's in the growth newsletter seems like an interesting step in the right direction of doing something to help mitigate that. As for wikilinks and images... it might help with some familiarity with wikitext, but there's still a lot of uphill climbs from there. There's also stuff like MOS:REPEATLINK that might have the outcome of newcomer tasks like that kind of backfire. Unless I'm misunderstanding how that task works. I think that while our attention on retaining new editors needs to be improved we also need to give more attention to intermediate editors too, since imo they're the most likely to stick around. Not everyone is interested in making editing Wikipedia their main hobby and that's okay. I do think trying to create some sort of stepping stone with newcomer tasks like that in general is a good idea, though. Clovermoss (talk) 01:05, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Wow this is a varied discussion! Attempt to contribute:
But you know, the one thing I could do for retention... I should go do that, I've had it on my mulling-over list for far too long. Off-topic pre-scriptum: While I don't use "cult" ontologically, I do have a mental category for "religion that mandates (substantial) financial contributions and practices shunning". Fairly objective criteria, and they have a lot of social correlates. HLHJ (talk) 04:04, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Evaluating semi-automated first interactions@MMiller (WMF), are there any stats on retention rates as a function of which templates are posted to a new user's talk page? If some uw templates have higher retention rates than others for extrinsic reasons (like they fail to explain to the editor what they need to do or come off as plain rude), then fixing them would be a very low-effort way of improving retention. If the data exists, I'll volunteer to code the templates by traits and run some analysis. Broader stats on what semi-automated first interactions are most helpful and repellent would also be useful. HLHJ (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Mobile app editing example@JTanner (WMF): Thank you for getting back to me. Your confusion about what exactly I was referring to, is in my mind, a good example about what I mean about how can there can be a disconnect between the WMF and the broader community of editors. So the issue isn't that I can't see diffs, it's that I can't copy the links to them. Ask any experienced editor on why this is important, like Levivich, and you'll get lengthy answers, I'm sure. The gist is that it's important for communication. If you want to start a talk page discussion because you were reverted on an edit you made to an article, it's standard to link a diff to the changes you tried to make. If you ever start a thread at WP:ANI, you're expected to provide diffs. They're very important. This [9] is an example of what I want to be able to do. As for the problem being my phone, I was able to type all this on the desktop version of the app just fine without that issue, so I'm disinclined to believe that's the reason. Or maybe the desktop version of the site has already figured out how to mitigate that response? But I did want to say that I appreciate your reply. I think more open communication can do a lot of good and I know you're trying to make the mobile experience better. Clovermoss (talk) 23:28, 8 August 2022 (UTC), edited 23:45, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
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Yet another break in this massive discussion
@JTanner (WMF): So I downloaded the beta version of the app but I haven't done anything with it yet. Right now I have both the normal app and the beta one... will that cause issues going forward? I'll try to test what you suggested sometime this weekend. I also think it'd be a good idea to compare the two versions of the app if I'm able to.
I still get the option to thank IPs in diffs even though the phabricator ticket has been marked as resolved? Is that just because whatever your team did to fix the issue hasn't been released yet or because something is going wrong on my end? Clovermoss (talk) 11:49, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- Hey there @Clovermoss, having both versions of the app shouldn't cause any issues. In the Beta version of the app you shouldn't have an option to thank an IP editors anymore, that update to the production version of the app should've went through a few hours ago. Have you updated the production version of the app in the last 12 hours? Also test it out in Beta because for sure the change is there. Thank you for dedicating so much time to giving feedback and testing things out. It is really appreciated and helpful! JTanner (WMF) (talk) 19:39, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): So I made sure I had downloaded the latest update from the app store for the production version and everything seems to be fine so far. I was able to type this reply at a normal speed and not letter by letter, so that's a good sign. I'll let you know if anything changes. Something else I noticed lately is that the "more" option to edit a page in its entirety doesn't show up until I click a section, at least on user talk pages. I'm not sure if maybe this is something that should be showing up as an option but isn't? I see some options for both (with or without clicking a specific section), just not for this. Thoughts? I also noticed that the section below this one kept changing size, that didn't happen before. I can email you a video of what exactly is happening there if you think that would be useful. Clovermoss (talk) 03:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- Hey there @Clovermoss, how are you doing?!
- Apologies for the gap in time, I had some life changes where my hours were a little constrained.
- "the "more" option to edit a page in its entirety doesn't show up until I click a section" - So we didn't make topic level of the talk pages editable, as you correctly pointed out, when you choose a topic on a talk page you can edit the source. Does this feel rather limiting? I ask so that we can create a feature request task to capture this.
- "I also noticed that the section below this one kept changing size, that didn't happen before. I can email you a video of what exactly is happening there if you think that would be useful" - Yes it would be helpful to have a video to see the change you're experiencing so that we can properly replicate and diagnose what is happening there
- JTanner (WMF) (talk) 15:23, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- The option to thank IPs in diffs has also gone away. So the update seemed to fix that. Thanks! Clovermoss (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've noticed some other issues lately. The overlapping text issue is worse and not just appearing in lists or maybe I'm just noticing it more. If I click my edits and view them, I see the ones from Commons but get an error message about the page not existing if I click on it. Which makes sense because this is the Wikipedia app but maybe the error message could be changed or only local contributions could be shown? This feature might work better if someone regularly contributes to different language wikipedias, though, since you can switch between language versions while browsing? Another thing is that in regards to my watchlist, the default setting is to show changes made by me, too. I'm not sure if there's a way to change this like in my settings or something because on desktop edits made by yourself are automatically hidden and I'd prefer that to be the default option. Clovermoss (talk) 20:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss
- "The overlapping text issue is worse" - Is what you are experiencing, you start typing in the editor and the letters are not being captured fast enough so it is jumbling? Or is overlapping happening in the review or something else? It would be helpful to see a screenshot for more information
- "I see the ones from Commons but get an error message about the page not existing if I click on it" Are you clicking on the commons contribution from watchlist in the production version of the app? I am going to come back with a ticket, because I see other issues related to contributions made not showing up
- "watchlist, the default setting is to show changes made by me, too. I'm not sure if there's a way to change this like in my settings or something because on desktop edits made by yourself are automatically hidden and I'd prefer that to be the default option"- I will discuss this one with the team today and based on the conversation I'll make a ticket and share it with you
- JTanner (WMF) (talk) 15:54, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss
- @JTanner (WMF): Another thing I noticed lately is that it's impossible for me to see diffs that other people link. The spot where they would be is a blank space. I notice that the same thing happens with external links. Clovermoss (talk) 20:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss: Tried investigating this a bit and could see diff links when posting it on a talk page. When clicking on the link it did however take me into Mobile Web view which I'll bring up with the team today. I tested in dark mode on the latest production version of the app. Are you seeing a different behavior than this? JTanner (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF) It's okay. I figured you were just really busy and that's why it was taking awhile. As for diffs, I don't see them on talk pages at all. It's literally a blank space where they should be. I can take some side-by-side screenshots if that would be helpful (one in edit mode where you can see the link to the diff and then when you're not able to see it at all). I'll try to do that video within the next few days. I've been really busy this week trying to catch up on things I should've done last week. Clovermoss (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): Another thing I've noticed lately is that every time I try to edit a page like AfDs, RfDs, MfD, etc, it causes the app to crash. I'm assuming you'll want a video of that too when I can get around to it? To your question about the production version of the app, yes that's what I'm referring to. I still have the beta version downloaded but I haven't really done much with it yet. Clovermoss (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've sent an email showing the AfDs causing the app to crash issue, I still need to get around to a video example of the other issue. I've also noticed that the app in general has been crashing more lately, but with AfDs and other XfD-related venues it's an always thing. It happens the second you alter anything, you can view and even scroll in edit mode relatively fine before that point. Clovermoss (talk) 00:45, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): There seems to have been an update recently. The general experience of the app is better, I like it :) There's still some things that could do with improvement, but I just wanted to say that I appreciate your dedication to making things better. Did you recieve the video I sent to you? It's okay if you're still investigating the issue, I just wanted to make sure you actually have access to it. Something else I noticed lately is that diffs differ between IPs/registered users. For a registered user, you have the thank button and then undo. For an IP, you have a rollback button and that's it. I'm not sure how this would appear to someone without the rollback permission, but it makes me a bit uneasy because there isn't a visual difference between the two and they're in the relatively same spot. You can still undo IP edits if you click the three buttons at the top and go through the options there but I just think it'd be better if the undo formatting was more consistent regardless of who made the edit. Your thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clovermoss (talk • contribs)
- @Clovermoss: Tried investigating this a bit and could see diff links when posting it on a talk page. When clicking on the link it did however take me into Mobile Web view which I'll bring up with the team today. I tested in dark mode on the latest production version of the app. Are you seeing a different behavior than this? JTanner (WMF) (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've noticed some other issues lately. The overlapping text issue is worse and not just appearing in lists or maybe I'm just noticing it more. If I click my edits and view them, I see the ones from Commons but get an error message about the page not existing if I click on it. Which makes sense because this is the Wikipedia app but maybe the error message could be changed or only local contributions could be shown? This feature might work better if someone regularly contributes to different language wikipedias, though, since you can switch between language versions while browsing? Another thing is that in regards to my watchlist, the default setting is to show changes made by me, too. I'm not sure if there's a way to change this like in my settings or something because on desktop edits made by yourself are automatically hidden and I'd prefer that to be the default option. Clovermoss (talk) 20:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): So I made sure I had downloaded the latest update from the app store for the production version and everything seems to be fine so far. I was able to type this reply at a normal speed and not letter by letter, so that's a good sign. I'll let you know if anything changes. Something else I noticed lately is that the "more" option to edit a page in its entirety doesn't show up until I click a section, at least on user talk pages. I'm not sure if maybe this is something that should be showing up as an option but isn't? I see some options for both (with or without clicking a specific section), just not for this. Thoughts? I also noticed that the section below this one kept changing size, that didn't happen before. I can email you a video of what exactly is happening there if you think that would be useful. Clovermoss (talk) 03:12, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
Late 2022 and early 2023
Hi JTanner (WMF), it's been awhile since we talked. I recently noticed that my most recent comment wasn't signed so you likely didn't get the ping/notification about my comment here. Did you get a chance to see the video I sent you of the app crashing whenever I tried to participate in an AfD? The issue seems to be resolved with the latest update so that's good at least. I admit I'm curious about the why, though. Do you think you might be able to explain it me? I think I'd find it fascinating. Anyways, how have you been? Anything exciting your team has been working on? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:40, 5 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss!! Hi how are you?! I hope you are well. I am doing well, catching up on some things, I was out then a bunch of folks on the team have been in and out. I think with it getting cold in some parts of the world the weather is getting to some of us. I did miss the ping! So thanks for pinging me again. We've made some updates to the editor recently including improving the syntax highlighting, making adding an image from Commons easier, and added the option to copy the link to a diff in a way where even if it doesn't appear in the bottom sheet, it is still accessible. You can see all of the tasks via this link. The engineers are doing some less visible changes right now to improve overall performance while we research what anti-vandalism tools we could bring into the apps. We are learning from tools that were created by volunteers and discussions about the pros and cons of those tools. If you have ideas related to anti-vandalism definitely feel free to contribute on the task, soon we will create a MediaWiki project page about it. Were you able to make the video about the diffs/are you still experiencing that challenge? Thank you for sending the video over about the AfD bug, our lead engineer @DBrant (WMF) actually fixed it, he's going to share more details of how he was able to fix the bug.
- Regarding the diff view and rollback this is really helpful to know, let me share the rationale and tell me what you think. Since we know that IPs can't be thanked, the logic of the code hides the thanks button for IP edits. We felt it was deceiving to show a Thanks button for IP edits only for it to fail, especially after your helpful observation. For someone who who does not have rollback permissions they'll see Thanks and Undo for Registered Users Edits and for IP edits they'll just see undo. We tried putting Rollback, Undo and Thanks all in one are of the screen but it was really crowded and we wanted to be mindful of phones that have small screens so we hid undo in the overflow menu for folks that have rollback permissions. As someone that uses the app and have rollback permissions, would you have preferred seeing undo and clicking the overflow menu for rollback or a different variation? I can imagine the configuration moving being confusing.
- But I am thrilled to hear that you feel the app is better overall, and you like it, this news has made my week! If there are other things you've noticed or do notice please keep sending it our way so we can continue to improve the app. When our Designer is back on Android we are planning to make some updates to make sure we are keeping up with the requirements from the Google Play Store but also revisit some of the things you surfaced earlier.
- Look forward to hearing how you're doing! JTanner (WMF) (talk) 19:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Hey there @Clovermoss, nice to meet you.
- That crash didn't really have to do with participating in an AfD discussion, but rather with the native wikitext editing interface itself, regardless of which article is edited. The crash occurred when putting the cursor all the way at the bottom of the text and pressing Enter.
- When building our native app, we care about squeezing every bit of performance from the Android platform, so that features like editing could be more responsive and usable than the web interface. This often involves some complex logic and system-level optimizations. And although we do as much testing as we can, the occasional crash can sometimes slip through. If you're curious, this is the exact change that fixed the crash. Interestingly, it was a single incorrect character of code that was causing the crash, not even a single line. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
- Nice to meet you as well DBrant (WMF). Thanks for the explanation. I'm trying to learn more about how stuff like this even works and it's surprising to find out that one character being wrong can cause this kind of problem. I didn't even notice the scale of it but it makes sense looking back that I only noticed the issue there. I don't mess around with stuff like categories that much, I'd typically use the reply button on talk pages, etc. I'm glad it's fixed now, though. Thanks for following up on that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
@JTanner (WMF): It's nice to hear from you again as well. Honestly it's no surprise you didn't get my ping because I forgot to sign my comment. Not something that happens very often but it is something that causes pings to fail (see Help:Notifications). The reply tool must have spoiled my habit of remembering the four tildes. Anyways, it really is nice to hear from you again, I'm seriously ecstatic each and every time.
In regards to the undo/rollback/thank setup, I don't think putting rollback on the overflow menu is nessecarily the best idea because usually the advantage of rollback compared to a regular undo is the speed of it. On the other hand, people worry about accidently using the tool when they don't want to. People will sometimes customize their watchlist on desktop to get rid of rollback for this reason (see Wikipedia:Customizing watchlists#Remove or modify the rollback link). That was my main concern with the variance in the button placement on whether you're reverting an IP or another registered user as it's possible that mistakes are more likely to happen that way. I understand your point about how having everything together would be crowded, though. Maybe some way of customizing it in settings would be helpful? Or making the buttons vertical instead of horizontal? Something like 'undo' and 'rollback' for IPs and 'thanks', 'undo' and 'rollback' for registered users? That way, if someone accidently presses something, it's more likely to be undo instead of rollback.
I have no idea how realistic my ideas might be though. I'll think a bit more about how countervandalism might work better on the app. Personally I have a hard time seeing how it would work well without some way of being able to view recent changes like you can on the regular mobile version of the wesbite or on desktop view. I'm assuming that there's a reason this hasn't been done on the app already yet, likely it would cause some sort of performance issue? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 10:02, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've also emailed you the video about the overlapping text issue I mentioned to you before. I kept forgetting to actually demonstrate it but your comment reminded me that was something I needed to do. Hopefully it's helpful to understanding what is going on. I used my talk page as an example because I noticed that it's more likely to happen on pages with substantial content but it also happens when you're editing an article too. But I think the video has a few good examples of what it can look like and how line breaks that involve weird cursor movement can kind of fix it. In the future, would you prefer it if I emailed any videos I notice of technical issues to DBrant (WMF)? I emailed you because that's what I did the last time but if it'd save some time I can email him directly. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
- You're very welcome to direct any technical issues (regarding the app) to me. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 02:49, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF) Thanks. I will wait to see what JTanner (WMF) has to say in regards to her opinion on what's best as well, but in the meantime, I have pinged you to an app-related technical issue at the Teahouse. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:13, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- JTanner (WMF) By the way, I noticed that the 'views' button isn't statically zero at all times anymore so that seems to be working now, too. I also wanted to say that I'm open to doing something like a video call like what's mentioned here [11], only in regards to mobile editing and all that. It's just that there's a few things that I have found difficult to express in my essay and in a way it's easier to just kind of demonstrate what I mean? I feel like I'd be more useful with some of my observations that way. If you're not comfortable with that, I'd understand, I'm just throwing it out there as an option. I promise to be polite and courteous, if that helps. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:41, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- You're very welcome to direct any technical issues (regarding the app) to me. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 02:49, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
DBrant (WMF) and JTanner (WMF); I hope you've both had a good holiday season. Heads up, a version of my essay is going to be published in the December edition of the Signpost. Current version is here: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2023-01-01/Essay. If there's anything you want to say, let me know. I hope you feel like I've been fair. I really do appreciate that you've listened to my feedback and I hope this doesn't get in the way of that. I'm still planning on using the app and seeing how it gets better over time :) I even have a new phone (haven't used it yet but it might be interesting to see potential differences). Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:54, 26 December 2022 (UTC)
- Hey there @Clovermoss how are you??!! I returned this week after being out for a few weeks. I was able to get some things with my health under control, and wow what a wonderful way to jump back in.
- Your Signpost is outstanding. Thank you for writing such an insightful recap of our interactions and sparking really great conversation. I've had both the Android and iOS teams read it this week and we all found it incredibly helpful and have circulated it with other colleagues that work on Mobile Web. I believe you were more than fair and an amazing contributor to our team (I hope it isn't overreaching to say it feels you are a part of the team). You posting your honest feedback would never impact our collaboration.
- Congrats on the new phone, what model is it?
- To get back to some of your questions and thoughts here, I'm happy to answer any questions, often the "why does this existing thing work this way" that may feel like a bug and not a feature I lean quite heavily on @DBrant (WMF) if I don't immediately know the answer. He's deep in the code base and one the most expert level engineers at WMF so he'd be able to answer those questions (if it is related to Android) faster at times since he is the one I may go to to ask. For the "why doesn't this feature exist, or can we change or add those features" I'm 100% your person. DBrant also answers the "how hard is it to do this technically" questions and I'm the other half of the pie of "when can it be prioritized" or "is it not prioritized for a specific reason". I hope this all makes sense!
- Thanks for this feedback on Thanks vs. Undo vs. Rollback. I made a task (T326894) so I can work with the team designer to rethink the implementation of this. I made you a subscriber so you can see a few proposals of changes and give us feedback as we think it through.
- We are exploring some designs around a recent changes view for anti-vandalism but also comparing it to more advanced volunteer created tools like twinkle and huggle. I hope to tag you on those in a few weeks to hear your thoughts. Are you still seeing the overlapping issue by the way?
- Its like you read my mind about the video call. Our Community Relations Specialist @ARamadan-WMF is going to post on signpost and propose a few touch points and see what you and others interested in apps prefer. Amongst the choices is a monthly or quarterly video call amongst other options. We can do one or a mix of whatever you all find most interesting but either way, I'd love to have a video call and connect synchronously. JTanner (WMF) (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): It's nice to hear from you again. I hope your health issues have been getting better and the new year has been off to a relatively good start. I got a Pixel 6a. I wanted a better phone camera and it seemed to be leagues above my current phone so that's what I went with. I'm glad my feedback/Signpost article feels fair. I've always appreciated your continued discussions with me and I didn't want that to change.
- I've seen the emails for updates on the phabricator tickets and it's always nice to see that your team is working on trying to make things better. As I said earlier, I'm open to a video call, whether it's more of a one-on-one thing or in a group. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:24, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi JTanner (WMF) and DBrant (WMF). So when pages I create show up on my watchlist on the app... I noticed something that's a bit weird. Specifically, when redirects have been reviewed. It doesn't really say what the change actually is in my watchlist but I get a notification about it. But I tend to check the redirects on desktop immediately afterwards because even though there's an invisible diff so-to-speak, there's a + or - bytes. Even if the person who reviewed the page hasn't edited it at all and it's just me. It's really quite bizzare. Here's some examples: Chimeral variegation – my watchlist shows that Ozzie10aaaa added 179 bytes [12], Moss wrack – my watchlist shows that SunDawn removed 15 bytes [13], Hardenburg's burrfish – a removal of 268 bytes [14]? I've only ever observed this issue on the app and it's confusing. I can give more examples if it'd be helpful. I'd also be curious to understand the why behind what is actually going on here, too. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:46, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Hey there! Hope you're having a great year, and thanks as always for using the app and letting us know your observations. It looks like you've uncovered a genuine bug (I've created a Phab task: phab:T328453). In the case of watchlist events that are not actual "edits", such as page curation logs, there's no concept of a diff, and therefore the number of bytes modified becomes undefined. And yet, our native component that shows watchlist events always assumes that there must be a byte count, so it takes a byte count from an undefined source. At first glance it looks like it's taking the byte count from another random item in the list of watchlist events, which... it should not be doing! Anyway, the task I linked will fix this issue, as well as improve the appearance/behavior of watchlist items that are not plain old edits. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 16:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks DBrant (WMF) for taking a look. Random items from the rest of the watchlist seems like a reasonable explanation for what's going on... I spent a while trying to figure out if maybe there was some pattern and I just couldn't.
- JTanner (WMF) Thanks for subscribing me to the relevant phabricator ticket. I really do appreciate every time you do so. I forgot about what you said the last time about how DBrant is more for technical issues and you specialize more on brainstorming/explaining how things work way. Would you prefer it if I didn't ping you on obvious technical issues like this in the future or is it okay to keep pinging you both to guarentee more eyes? I also noticed that you mentioned that someone else was going to do something regarding the Signpost piece. I didn't see them comment there – maybe they reached out to people individually or just haven't got around do doing anything like that yet? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:27, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi JTanner (WMF). I think this would count as a feature request, so I'm pinging you. I think I mentioned this before but I'm not sure if anything happened beyond investigating how pageviews on the watchlist worked? Or perhaps I'm misremembering/misunderstanding what happened before. What I'm getting at is that as someone who alternates between the app and desktop editing, it'd be nice if I could have some way of marking changes on my watchlist as read on the app (or automatically updating this) so when I'm looking at my desktop watchlist it is more relevant to me. Or is this something that I should try adding to the chorewheel that ARamadan-WMF has mentioned? Maybe that would be the more appropriate venue for something like this? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:29, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Hello @Clovermoss, I created a ticket on Phab. to investigate this issue and added you as a subscriber; here's the link you can follow. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 12:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): I'm not sure if this would fall under phab:T315347 or if it should be its own seperate phabricator ticket, but I noticed that there's another circumstance where redlinks show up as blue links. Specifically, if you're looking at replies on a user talk page. [15] That link was actually blue which worked well for the joke, but it shouldn't have actually happened. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- Another valid observation, filed at phab:T331299. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): I found another one, I think! So I get an error code when trying to look at Talk:2023 Hamburg shooting on my watchlist, specifically "Empty list doesn't contain element at index 0". I'm not sure what that means, but I can provide a screenshot of the error if that helps. If I had to guess, it's likely a result of the article being moved a few times. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Acknowledged and reproduced! Some of our watchlist and diff handling code seems to be too dependent on page titles, when it should be dependent on page ids. When we attempt to get a diff of a revision that has been moved (based on the page title), it fails, but if we use the page id, it will work. (phab:T332173) DBrant (WMF) (talk) 14:06, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): The app has been behaving very strangely lately. The best way I could describe it is that it's acting as if I'm logged in and logged out at the same time. I plan to email you a video of what exactly is happening. Could you please look into it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks; I've reviewed the video, but I'm not seeing any unusual behavior on our test devices. It's possible this was a temporary glitch on the server side that was producing errors. Is it still behaving this way now? DBrant (WMF) (talk) 11:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF) No, it stopped. I've seen some of the similar weirdness before but never all of those issues together. Do you want me to keep track of the dates and times I experience anything unusual? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, any additional details would be helpful, although the thing that helps us the most is steps that are consistently reproducible. In this kind of case the possible causes are too broad to attempt to track down without more data. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 13:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- DBrant (WMF) So with this morning, the only thing I did was open the app. That's the only thing I can think of in regards to what might have caused it, which doesn't really narrow anything down. Before today, the only thing weird I really saw happen was my watchlist occasionally telling me that I needed to login (while being logged in). Typically, waiting a few minutes and refreshing a few times would make that go away. The other issues (e.g. saying I only have 400 contributions on the homepage, etc) were completely new. I'll keep you updated if I notice anything that you might find useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Sure, any additional details would be helpful, although the thing that helps us the most is steps that are consistently reproducible. In this kind of case the possible causes are too broad to attempt to track down without more data. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 13:56, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF) No, it stopped. I've seen some of the similar weirdness before but never all of those issues together. Do you want me to keep track of the dates and times I experience anything unusual? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:29, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks; I've reviewed the video, but I'm not seeing any unusual behavior on our test devices. It's possible this was a temporary glitch on the server side that was producing errors. Is it still behaving this way now? DBrant (WMF) (talk) 11:47, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): I found another one, I think! So I get an error code when trying to look at Talk:2023 Hamburg shooting on my watchlist, specifically "Empty list doesn't contain element at index 0". I'm not sure what that means, but I can provide a screenshot of the error if that helps. If I had to guess, it's likely a result of the article being moved a few times. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:58, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
- Another valid observation, filed at phab:T331299. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): I'm not sure if this would fall under phab:T315347 or if it should be its own seperate phabricator ticket, but I noticed that there's another circumstance where redlinks show up as blue links. Specifically, if you're looking at replies on a user talk page. [15] That link was actually blue which worked well for the joke, but it shouldn't have actually happened. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:38, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
@DBrant (WMF): This morning I noticed that whenever I tried to edit a specific section of something in the Wikipedia namespace on the app, it would prompt me to edit the next section and not the one that I was actually trying to edit. I tried it a few times so I'm certain it's not a misclick on my end. I'm not sure why this happens or if it's a broader issue, but I thought I'd let you know. The page in question is ~300,000 bytes and I've noticed before that sometimes things act weirdly when trying to edit large pages, so maybe that has something to do with it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've done more experimenting with this specific technical issue. So far, I've only experienced it at WP:ANI and WP:AN. I've tried other random pages that are huge byte-wise both inside and outside the Wikipedia namespace but haven't had much luck replicating this issue elswhere? When it does happen on a page, it happens consistently. I can keep you updated if I notice it elsewhere as time goes on. Hopefully you'll be able to find out what's causing this? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:09, 15 April 2023 (UTC)
- @JTanner (WMF): I've noticed another technical issue. If you try to search for a specific user's userpage and it's a global one, it's impossible to see it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
- Hi again, and sorry for the delay — Yes indeed, searching within the app will only search your current language wiki, so if a user doesn't have a userpage on that wiki, it won't find anything. (And even if it was able to find a global userpage (presumably on meta wiki) the app wouldn't display it because it's not on a
wikipedia.org
domain.) DBrant (WMF) (talk) 12:59, 8 June 2023 (UTC)- @DBrant (WMF) Thanks for getting back to me. There was one other thing that came up since the last time we talked if you scroll up a bit. Your thoughts on that issue would be appreciated. I was also wondering if you're aware of when the next office hours for the app are? I'd like to attend again whenever they're happening. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, we're aware of that issue as well, but the cause of the problem is way upstream from the app. The short answer is that certain pages (outside the Main namespace) that transclude a lot of various templates seem to throw off our server-side parsing logic, but we're working on it. And really, the proper solution will be to treat pages like WP:ANI as a "talk page" and present it in our native Talk interface, as we do with user talk pages. As for the next office hours, I'll defer to @JTanner (WMF) or @ARamadan-WMF. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 20:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF) Thanks for all you and everybody on the team does. I know you mostly hear from me when I'm complaining about something but my experience with the app has gotten drastically better over time and I recognize that I'm likely an outlier when it comes to a lot of the stuff I try to do with it. So I just wanted to reiterate that I appreciate my feedback actually being listened to.
- The only other potential issue that immediately comes to mind right now is the view counter that shows up on the homepage. It very rarely displays a number other than 0. Maybe something is going on there? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, @Clovermoss,
- I will ensure that you receive the necessary information regarding our upcoming office hour scheduled for September. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 11:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, we're aware of that issue as well, but the cause of the problem is way upstream from the app. The short answer is that certain pages (outside the Main namespace) that transclude a lot of various templates seem to throw off our server-side parsing logic, but we're working on it. And really, the proper solution will be to treat pages like WP:ANI as a "talk page" and present it in our native Talk interface, as we do with user talk pages. As for the next office hours, I'll defer to @JTanner (WMF) or @ARamadan-WMF. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 20:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF) Thanks for getting back to me. There was one other thing that came up since the last time we talked if you scroll up a bit. Your thoughts on that issue would be appreciated. I was also wondering if you're aware of when the next office hours for the app are? I'd like to attend again whenever they're happening. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi again, and sorry for the delay — Yes indeed, searching within the app will only search your current language wiki, so if a user doesn't have a userpage on that wiki, it won't find anything. (And even if it was able to find a global userpage (presumably on meta wiki) the app wouldn't display it because it's not on a
- @JTanner (WMF): I've noticed another technical issue. If you try to search for a specific user's userpage and it's a global one, it's impossible to see it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2023 (UTC)
Mid to late 2023
Hi DBrant (WMF). I just wanted to say that I noticed barnstars are actually somewhat visible through the app now and I appreciate the change. It's always cool to see progress as it happens! Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): I also wanted to say I appreciate the feature of being able to search my watchlist. Maybe it's a setting I haven't been able to see elsewhere that does exist but it seems unique to the app. It's really cool. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- DBrant (WMF) I just emailed you a video of another technical issue I noticed. I don't know the best way to explain it but using bold text can cause the app to act weird in a relatively predictable way and it doesn't stop unless you just get rid of the bold text. Hopefully you can figure out what's going on there. I hope you've been doing well lately. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): If you were able to figure out what was going on after I sent the video, would you be able to explain it to me? I'm curious even if I don't always completely understand the why. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- When we perform syntax highlighting, we only parse the current viewport of the wikitext you're looking at. This is for performance purposes -- if we were to perform real-time syntax highlighting on the entire wikitext, especially if it's a larger article, it would become sluggish. The downside of this approach is that there can sometimes be edge cases where the end of a syntax block appears near the top of the viewport, but we parse it as the beginning of a syntax block. If you look closely at the top of your video, there is a triple-quote
'''
which is really the end of a bold block from further up, but we're assuming it's the beginning of a bold block, so when you type another triple-quote further down, the whole thing gets parsed as bold. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)- @DBrant (WMF): Thanks for explaining that. :) I was also wondering why the pageviews on the homepage almost always says 0? I remember one occassion months ago where it briefly said otherwise but 99% of the time it's stuck at zero which doesn't seem right when I'm editing highly visible pages. It's a bit of a confusing metric. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed that the pageviews number is confusing, and the whole "Edits" stats screen is on our queue to be overhauled at some point. The number of pageviews actually refers only to articles whose Wikidata description you've edited. This is a holdover from the early days of the Edits screen, when it was called the Suggested Edits screen, and when the only type of suggested edit was Wikidata descriptions. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 19:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): Thanks for clearing that up. Yeah, I agree that's a good thing to overhaul at some point. While we're both online at about the same time, I was wondering if anything has been planned for the September meeting? Like a date being set? It's mid-August and I haven't heard anything yet so I just want to make sure I haven't missed anything. I expect my September to be fairly busy so a bit of a heads up ahead of time would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed that the pageviews number is confusing, and the whole "Edits" stats screen is on our queue to be overhauled at some point. The number of pageviews actually refers only to articles whose Wikidata description you've edited. This is a holdover from the early days of the Edits screen, when it was called the Suggested Edits screen, and when the only type of suggested edit was Wikidata descriptions. DBrant (WMF) (talk) 19:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): Thanks for explaining that. :) I was also wondering why the pageviews on the homepage almost always says 0? I remember one occassion months ago where it briefly said otherwise but 99% of the time it's stuck at zero which doesn't seem right when I'm editing highly visible pages. It's a bit of a confusing metric. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- When we perform syntax highlighting, we only parse the current viewport of the wikitext you're looking at. This is for performance purposes -- if we were to perform real-time syntax highlighting on the entire wikitext, especially if it's a larger article, it would become sluggish. The downside of this approach is that there can sometimes be edge cases where the end of a syntax block appears near the top of the viewport, but we parse it as the beginning of a syntax block. If you look closely at the top of your video, there is a triple-quote
- @DBrant (WMF): If you were able to figure out what was going on after I sent the video, would you be able to explain it to me? I'm curious even if I don't always completely understand the why. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:54, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- DBrant (WMF) I just emailed you a video of another technical issue I noticed. I don't know the best way to explain it but using bold text can cause the app to act weird in a relatively predictable way and it doesn't stop unless you just get rid of the bold text. Hopefully you can figure out what's going on there. I hope you've been doing well lately. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Hey DBrant (WMF). I found another issue that comes from a notification when I get thanked for editing a redirect page. I'm about to email a video of that to you too. Hopefully it helps. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:04, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- A long-standing task: phab:T68480 DBrant (WMF) (talk) 11:36, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
- @DBrant (WMF): Thanks for letting me know. It's good that I'm not always the only one to notice these things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
@ARamadan-WMF: Remember how I said I wanted to show you and Jazmin something that may be useful in regards to the upcoming antivandalism feature at the office hours? There was a particular situation I was thinking of in that moment but I incorrectly remembered what template I was having issues with at the time [16][17]. In that one, the substituted template creates its own heading and since you can't insert a template on the app without a subject line on a redlinked page (because you're forced to use the new thread feature) you end up with two. This isn't a problem if a talk page is already created (as it's possible to just edit the entire page). Anyways, I am going to send that email soon showing a recording of something else that might be of use to the app's team. I kind of showed the switch from the app to desktop mode on browser that happens when I revert someone. It's somewhat convoluted and might be helpful in implementing that new antivandalism feature you're working on. Implementing Wikipedia:User warnings as some sort of option in the saved messages thing would probably be what the average Wikipedian would look for first, at least on enwiki. While I definitely write personal messages for people sometimes (especially if the issue is more complex), by definition, actual vandalism tends to be fairly straightforward to deal with. More personalized messages are more useful when someone is editing in good faith and not merely writing stuff like this. Hopefully my feedback here is useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:49, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you, @Clovermoss, this has been definitely helpful; I created this ticket T350583 with what you mentioned, and I added you as a subscriber. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 14:19, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: I'm glad that this was helpful feedback. I noticed something else just now that might be useful to know about. There isn't a "watch" option for templates while you're on the app. Sometimes templates have changes (e.g. Template:Centralized discussion) so it would be useful to watch pages like that without having to switch to desktop. Thanks, Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Please check our software engineer reply to you, here on Pah.
- And the second feature suggestion is now in a ticket and will be triagged during the next week.
- You're always welcome to share your thoughts and ideas! ARamadan-WMF (talk) 13:05, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: Thanks for letting me know! I didn't really have wifi for most of the past week so I'm somewhat behind on things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- Hello, again!
- You can find the update of your second suggestion here, in the ticket on Phabricator. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: I noticed that. JTanner (WMF) subscribes me to phabricator tickets so I get emails about them when they're updated, even if I don't always comment directly on them. Thank you for going out of your way to let me know though, I appreciate the sentiment behind the action. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: Thanks for letting me know! I didn't really have wifi for most of the past week so I'm somewhat behind on things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: I'm glad that this was helpful feedback. I noticed something else just now that might be useful to know about. There isn't a "watch" option for templates while you're on the app. Sometimes templates have changes (e.g. Template:Centralized discussion) so it would be useful to watch pages like that without having to switch to desktop. Thanks, Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
@ARamadan-WMF: I'm about to email you another issue I've identified. I'm not quite sure how to explain it, but whenever I try to edit a page that looks like that, it gives me an error. I have to go into the overflow menu to edit the page at all. Otherwise the reply function works normally on talk pages and the like. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I received it and created a ticket for this issue as explained.
- You will get notified when it gets triaged by the Android software engineers. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: Okay, thanks! I think the next time I find anything I'll try to report it on phab myself, I honestly should have learned how to do that already. It's always a good idea to try and learn new things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- It's okay, I am always here :) And I can help you get familiar with Phabricator, too.
- Have a good day! ARamadan-WMF (talk) 11:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
- @ARamadan-WMF: Okay, thanks! I think the next time I find anything I'll try to report it on phab myself, I honestly should have learned how to do that already. It's always a good idea to try and learn new things. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:06, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
Invitation, again
You are a remarkable editor in many ways. You would be a good administrator, in my opinion, and appear to be well qualified. You personify an administrator without tools and have gained my support already! |
Last summer (has it already been that long?), I left you a message about applying for NPR. I'm back, but with a slightly different message. I realize that RfA is a shitshow, and I would not necessarily advise you to start one right now. But the problem is with RfA, not with you: in a world with a functional RfA, you would be ready and would pass with flying colors. You are a valuable asset to this project, Clovermoss. HouseBlastertalk 20:52, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with HouseBlaster's encouraging words; particularly that you are a valued member of our community. If you're inclined to serve as an administrator, you can expect to see me in full support (and many others, I'm sure). In the interim, I wish you the best. --John Cline (talk) 02:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- I would love to support your RfA. Of course, only you know whether you would like to serve as admin. (t · c) buidhe 02:21, 13 December 2023 (UTC).
- Do it. jp×g🗯️ 06:03, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- +1 ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 06:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- What HouseBlaster said except remove all the don't do it bit and just go for it. Zippybonzo | talk | contribs (he|she|they) 07:18, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- A self-nom would have been so cool! ——Serial 14:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Serial Number 54129: she did! You've got this, Clovermoss! HouseBlastertalk 14:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Cheers HouseBlaster, yeah she let me know... I've commented, perhaps slightly expressively! :) Thanks tho! ——Serial 14:58, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Serial Number 54129: she did! You've got this, Clovermoss! HouseBlastertalk 14:43, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
Incredibly strong oppose I maen seriusly you cna't evne spell 'received' proprely in your nonimation statment? Obviuosly complytely unsiuted to be an adnimistrytor. :) (If that's the only mistake you ever make, you're a heck of a lot better than the rest of us!) --Hammersoft (talk) 15:00, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Just noting that it's nice to see another ace admin candidate. There are dozens of us! :) firefly ( t · c ) 16:07, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- It's nice to know I'm not alone :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Good luck. I'm sure you'll do fine and won't do this to Wikipedia. Queen of Hearts ❤️ (no relation) 04:53, 14 December 2023 (UTC)
Long Overdue
I'm delighted you've decided to stand Clovermoss! Back when we first met at WT:NPPR, I knew you were a competent and kind user, and an excellent social role model that we would be honored to count among the corps. I was worried that RfA was too stressful to most qualified candidates, but this year has shown me that the community is not fossilized enough to keep out some of our best. I wish you luck in your RfA, and hopefully our paths will cross more often in the coming year! The Night Watch (talk) 20:56, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congratulations! I wasn't paying attention and didn't know the RfA was in progress. I would have thrown in my support, for whatever that's worth. Jim.henderson (talk) 03:55, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Jim.henderson If you really want to, you still can. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- Ah. I misread an unreleased news story. So, stopping for pizza, I pulled out the phone and voted. Jim.henderson (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Jim.henderson If you really want to, you still can. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Trifolium courage
Trifolium courage | |
I know it's not over yet, but this isn't about passing your RFA, it's about standing at RFA. I know you were hesitant to run, but not only did you run, you nominated yourself. That takes some real anthers. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:29, 19 December 2023 (UTC) |
- @ScottishFinnishRadish It's very sweet of you to create your own version of "root vegetable courage". :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:47, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
New pages patrol January 2024 Backlog drive
New Page Patrol | January 2024 Articles Backlog Drive | |
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You're receiving this message because you are a new page patroller. To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here. |
MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Your request for adminship
Hi Clovermoss, I have closed your request for adminship as successful. Congratulations! As always, the administrators' reading list is worth reading and the new admin help pages are most certainly available if you feel that you might require some practice with the tools in a safe environment prior to applying them elsewhere on the project. Good luck! Acalamari 14:06, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congratulations! ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:08, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Very happy to see this. You know where I am if you ever need anything, whether it's a sanity check or just a philosophical discussion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congrats, and good luck with the tools. ~ Prodraxis (Merry Christmas!) 15:50, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- So happy for you, Clovermoss! Congrats! {{u|Sdkb}} talk 17:58, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Congratulations!
Congratulations on your successful adminship! You may also need this... 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁=☁=✈) 14:13, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congratulations! NotAGenious (talk) 14:18, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm also bringing you some mop juice and rouge. Felicitations. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:20, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congrats, Clovermoss! I'm really glad you decided to run. Welcome to the admin corps, and if I can ever help with anything please feel free to ask. Vanamonde (Talk) 04:55, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congratulations! Ganesha811 should be here shortly with the admin baton... Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can confirm! The baton will be arriving as soon as I can get to something bigger than a phone! —Ganesha811 (talk) 04:18, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
- Congratulations! Ganesha811 should be here shortly with the admin baton... Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:08, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Welcome to adminship!
The Admin's Barnstar | |
Congratulations on the RFA, Clovermoss, and welcome to adminship! ChrisWx 🎄 (Happy holidays!) 16:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
A brownie for you! (Congrats!)
Congrats on your successful RfA! I'm excited to see you out and about using your mop. ❤HistoryTheorist❤ 19:05, 20 December 2023 (UTC) |
A barnstar for you!
The Civility Barnstar | |
For keeping it together all through the RfA despite certain idiot fuckheads (me) asking stupid questions. jp×g🗯️ 05:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
Another barnstar!
The Special Barnstar | ||
I think this is really the only barnstar to give someone who exemplified model behavior for a candidate admin throughout her RfA! — Daniel Case (talk) 05:51, 21 December 2023 (UTC) |
A successful RfA right around Christmas? Win-win!
Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2024! | |
Hello Clovermoss, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2024. Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages. |
The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1(The Garage) 16:07, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Belated congrats
Real world stuff got in the way the last couple of weeks, but I wanted to add my sincere congrats on your overwhelming RfA. I'm sure you'll be a fine addition to the admin corps. Onel5969 TT me 02:30, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
Congratulations, new Admin!
I wanted to add my congratulations, Clovermoss! Welcome to the mop team! -- Rosiestep (talk) 04:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
A baton for you
The admin baton | |
Slightly delayed by the holidays, but Santa got here nevertheless! Congrats, and here's a baton for you to pass on in due course. Happy editing! —Ganesha811 (talk) 05:11, 22 December 2023 (UTC) |
- @Ganesha811: Thanks for the baton! This is the coolest thing ever, I'm looking forward to passing it on when the time comes. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
Seasons Greetings
Onel5969 TT me 02:48, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
The Signpost: 24 December 2023
- Special report: Did the Chinese Communist Party send astroturfers to sabotage a hacktivist's Wikipedia article?
- News and notes: The Italian Public Domain wars continue, Wikimedia RU set to dissolve, and a recap of WLM 2023
- In the media: Consider the humble fork
- Discussion report: Arabic Wikipedia blackout; Wikimedians discuss SpongeBob, copyrights, and AI
- In focus: Liquidation of Wikimedia RU
- Technology report: Dark mode is coming
- Recent research: "LLMs Know More, Hallucinate Less" with Wikidata
- Gallery: A feast of holidays and carols
- Comix: Lollus lmaois 200C tincture
- Crossword: when the crossword is sus
- Traffic report: What's the big deal? I'm an animal!
- From the editor: A piccy iz worth OVAR 9000!!!11oneone! wordz ^_^
- Humour: Guess the joke contest
Congratulations!
Hi, I hardly ever get involved in these things, but I saw your request and was pleased to support. Congratulations! Springnuts (talk) 15:39, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
Happy Holidays!
Congratulations!
Congratulations for being elected. Alfa-ketosav (talk) 12:06, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
You've got mail
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template. at any time by removing the Queen of Hearts ❤️ (she/they 🎄 🏳️⚧️) 19:43, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Queen of Hearts: Done! That was actually my first block, I've been watching WP:ANV all morning and asking another admin some questions. I'm trying to learn new things :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:49, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Block/deletion.
Regarding this edit, and the subsequent response, I'd appreciate it if you removed the post and revdeled the whole thing, at the least per WP:DENY. He doesn't need to be told. There is no reason to notify any sock of a LTA case anything about scrubbing their useless abuse from public view. Also, the IPs talk page access should be revoked for as long as the block lasts, in line with other socks. oknazevad (talk) 20:57, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Oknazevad: Done The message about the deleted page was accidental and involved me forgetting to uncheck a box (I did manage to do that correctly for the other page I deleted that had a similar theme).
- I have removed and revdelled that comment. Sorry I missed it. I was about to start trying to get ready for a nap and wasn't really looking closely enough at my watchlist there.
- Feel free to reach out again if you ever have any feedback. I'm a new admin and I'm trying to do my best. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate it. The user in question pops up periodically and targets me for whatever reason. Rather pathetic that they're doing it on Christmas. Though one thing, could you also delete the edit summaries, as the page name is still there. oknazevad (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- I have done that, too. If I've somehow missed something else, talk page stalkers are welcome to deal with it on my behalf. I trust y'all. Really going to try and take my nap now. 😴 Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:30, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate it. The user in question pops up periodically and targets me for whatever reason. Rather pathetic that they're doing it on Christmas. Though one thing, could you also delete the edit summaries, as the page name is still there. oknazevad (talk) 21:11, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Congrats!
Nice job getting adminship! Though, you should probably remove yourself from the AWOT category, as you have achieved adminship and now have the tools. I can do stuff! (talk) 03:30, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Icandostuff: I've removed myself from the category, thanks for letting me know. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:41, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
Women in Red January 2024
Women in Red | January 2024, Volume 10, Issue 1, Numbers 291, 293, 294, 295, 296
Announcement
Tip of the month:
Other ways to participate:
|
Season's greetings
Hello Clovermoss: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Happy New Year, Clovermoss!
Clovermoss,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.
CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 18:46, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Happy New Year, Clovermoss!
Clovermoss,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Abishe (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.
Abishe (talk) 20:42, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Welcome to the 2024 WikiCup!
Happy New Year and Happy New WikiCup! The 2024 competition has just begun and all article creators, expanders, improvers and reviewers are welcome to take part. Even if you are a novice editor you should be able to advance to at least the second round, improving your editing skills as you go. If you have already signed up, your submissions page can be found here. If you have not yet signed up, you can add your name here and the judges will set up your submissions page ready for you to take part. Any questions on the scoring, rules or anything else should be directed to one of the judges, or posted to the WikiCup talk page. Signups will close on 31 January, and the first round will end on 26 February; the 64 highest scorers at that time will move on to round 2. The judges for the WikiCup this year are: Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs · email), Epicgenius (talk · contribs · email), and Frostly (talk · contribs · email). Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove your name from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Epicgenius: I subscribed to the newsletter because I think the wikicup is interesting. I'm not planning on formally participating or anything though... is my preference for seeing these messages going to mess anything up on your end? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:48, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss, anyone is free to subscribe, even if they are not competing, so you should be fine. Thank you for your interest in the WikiCup. Epicgenius (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- One of these days I hope to not just be watching from the sidelines. :) Maybe next year. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Clovermoss, anyone is free to subscribe, even if they are not competing, so you should be fine. Thank you for your interest in the WikiCup. Epicgenius (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – January 2024
News and updates for administrators from the past month (December 2023).
- Following the 2023 Arbitration Committee elections, the following editors have been appointed to the Arbitration Committee: Aoidh, Cabayi, Firefly, HJ Mitchell, Maxim, Sdrqaz, ToBeFree, Z1720.
- Following a motion, the Arbitration Committee rescinded the restrictions on the page name move discussions for the two Ireland pages that were enacted in June 2009.
- The arbitration case Industrial agriculture has been closed.
- The New Pages Patrol backlog drive is happening in January 2024 to reduce the backlog of articles in the new pages feed. Currently, there is a backlog of over 13,000 unreviewed articles awaiting review. Sign up here to participate!
Happy New Year!
Happy New Year! | |
Hello Clovermoss: Did you know ... that back in 1885, Wikipedia editors wrote Good Articles with axes, hammers and chisels? Thank you for your contributions to this encyclopedia using 21st century technology. I hope you don't get any unnecessary blisters. |
Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 00:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello! I made a calendar of oddities
Hey Clover! Congrats on the RfA and I hope you're having a good 2024 so far! I made a list of unusual anniversaries (kind of like WP:UNUSUAL and WP:OTD combined) on my userpage and I'm spreading the word in case others have good things to add. I'm not quite sure what the purpose of the page is yet; I just figured that if *I* find it interesting, others might too. Crunchydillpickle🥒 (talk) 00:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I do find it interesting, Crunchydillpickle. Thanks for sharing it with me. By the way, if you ever come visit Canada, you should try dill pickle chips. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:09, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I've had dill pickle chips from Trader Joes and I didn't even know they were a Canadian thing! Every day I learn so many things! Crunchydillpickle🥒 (talk) 01:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Crunchydillpickle: Yeah, we have some well-known regional potato chip varieties. It's been on my mind lately as I wrote ketchup chip this week. By the way, you should take a look at Wikipedia:Time Between Edits and Wikipedia:Records. I have a hunch you'd like them just as much as I do. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- I've had dill pickle chips from Trader Joes and I didn't even know they were a Canadian thing! Every day I learn so many things! Crunchydillpickle🥒 (talk) 01:17, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
EduWiki
As always, Metawiki is a maze, and I cannot find the wikiediting guides I was looking for, sorry. But hope that they will able to answer your questions.
Another interesting idea I got from the WikiEdu Conference in Belgrade is that maybe teaching ppl to edit is a bridge too far: first you need to theach the genaral public to read Wikipedia, e.g. explain what are the little numbers near the text mean, how do sistinguish between a reliable and unrealible source etc. The wider is the funnel at the base, the more active editors we'll get at the end of it. --Victoria (talk) 14:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, Victoria. It was very nice chatting with you and Rosiestep yesterday. When I'm feeling a bit better (somewhat sick right now), I'll go and check this out. I really do think the chance to observe a class while it's happening would be insightful and that a reflection of something like that would be useful. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Found it unexpectedly in a different place.--Victoria (talk) 15:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @MMiller (WMF) I'm also giving you a courtesy ping because you came up at some point during our conversation :) I heard that you're doing something about encouraging younger editors like me? If so, I'm curious on your ambitions. Feel free to nerd out on the details!
- P.S. I really enjoyed talking with you and Selena at WCNA. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:02, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- Found it unexpectedly in a different place.--Victoria (talk) 15:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Congratulations
Hi - I've just logged in again properly for the fist time in ages, and just skimmed the latest administrators' newsletter - congrats on your appointment. Sorry I missed your run, I would most certainly have supported had I been aware of it. Hope you're enjoying the new buttons. Happy new year! Girth Summit (blether) 15:15, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks Girth Summit. It's nice to know you approve of me, your opinion is high up on my personal pedestal along with Nick's. :) I haven't really been using the tools much as of yet, but I have read some guides and performed a few admin actions so far. We'll see where the future takes us, I suppose. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:28, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Adding on a bit to that last part, if there's any advice you'd like to give me as I explore brand new frontiers, I'd appreciate it. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Going to tack on here as well as I've been pretty occupied over the last month, (even since the editor-experience-reflection request you sent me: this was something I really wanted to respond to at the time I saw it, but didn't want to commit until I was ready to answer the Q's, which I hadn't been able to). In any case, I unfortunately wasn't able to participate in your RfA, but the first thing I wanted to do upon getting back was congratulate you on your run! You'll do great I'm sure :D (I guess it's been a month already wow), and if there's still time for me to do an editor reflection you may see that in the coming days (or weeks) so I'll try to do that sooner rather than later. B) Cheers! Utopes (talk / cont) 07:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Utopes: Well it hasn't quite been a month yet. I ran on the 13th and actually got the tools on the 20th. It's been surprising how many people have been showing up to congratulate me, though. :) Take your time with the editor reflection, there's no need to rush it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:32, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Going to tack on here as well as I've been pretty occupied over the last month, (even since the editor-experience-reflection request you sent me: this was something I really wanted to respond to at the time I saw it, but didn't want to commit until I was ready to answer the Q's, which I hadn't been able to). In any case, I unfortunately wasn't able to participate in your RfA, but the first thing I wanted to do upon getting back was congratulate you on your run! You'll do great I'm sure :D (I guess it's been a month already wow), and if there's still time for me to do an editor reflection you may see that in the coming days (or weeks) so I'll try to do that sooner rather than later. B) Cheers! Utopes (talk / cont) 07:12, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
- Adding on a bit to that last part, if there's any advice you'd like to give me as I explore brand new frontiers, I'd appreciate it. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
NPP Awards for 2023
The New Page Reviewer's Iron Award | ||
For over 360 article reviews during 2023. Well done! Keep up the good work and thank you! Dr vulpes (Talk) 02:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
- @Dr vulpes: This is actually somewhat surprising to me, that I've done that many article reviews. I'm fairly certain I mostly focus on the redirect portion of the queue. Is there an award for redirects as well, out of curiousity? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:30, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that @Clovermoss because I had the exact same thought when I pulling the records. Here's the SQL code I ran to get the redirects, the award is for anyone who does 2,000 or more redirects and we both fell shot by ~400 reviews. If you find a mistake please let me know, this is my first time doing the end of year awards so it is 100% possible I've screwed up somewhere. Dr vulpes (Talk) 17:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Dr vulpes: I got the NPP perm sometime last year so I'm not that familiar with the end of year awards we have. I will say that if it were up to me, there should be a barnstar for 1,000+ redirect reviews because that's a substantial number in itself. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:59, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
- It's funny you say that @Clovermoss because I had the exact same thought when I pulling the records. Here's the SQL code I ran to get the redirects, the award is for anyone who does 2,000 or more redirects and we both fell shot by ~400 reviews. If you find a mistake please let me know, this is my first time doing the end of year awards so it is 100% possible I've screwed up somewhere. Dr vulpes (Talk) 17:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The Signpost: 10 January 2024
- From the editor: NINETEEN MORE YEARS! NINETEEN MORE YEARS!
- Special report: Public Domain Day 2024
- Technology report: Wikipedia: A Multigenerational Pursuit
- News and notes: In other news ... see ya in court!
- WikiProject report: WikiProjects Israel and Palestine
- Obituary: Anthony Bradbury
- Traffic report: The most viewed articles of 2023
- Comix: Conflict resolution
@Clovermoss: That was a great outcome, Not, for a promotional bit of native advertising, a complete copyvio and full peacock and weasel words along with WP:PROMO to the core. scope_creepTalk 09:40, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
- @Scopecreep: For what it's worth, I second guessed myself after declining. Two other admins I've reached out to have said they would've deleted as a G11. I'm still learning. I was just very hesitant to delete something outright that seemed notable, even if WP:TNT might have been the more realistic outcome there. I added the ad tag for a reason and I'm happy that it reads less like a PR brochure now. As for the copyright concerns, I'm adding a user script that will help me catch that a bit more quickly. I'm still reflecting on the situation and what to do next. I don't want to rush things and make them worse. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
- And I do appreciate you gutting the promotional content, Scopecreep (it's why I thanked you for it before you left this message). I was going to do so myself but you were one step ahead of me on that. I was trying to figure out that my second thoughts weren't some colossal mistake first. I do think my approach to the situation wasn't completely terrible... There is some salvageable content worth merging, even if the product might not be notable enough for its own article. G11s typically don't cite the New York Times or have anything worth salvaging, in my experience. I was trying to take the warning on Wikipedia:Deletion isn't cleanup to heart, as speedy deletion is a kind of unilateral action that doesn't have the same oversight as other processes like AfD. WP:G11 also states that
If a subject is notable and the content could plausibly be replaced with text written from a neutral point of view, this is preferable to deletion.
But I also realize that you tend to deal with spam a lot and maybe our perspectives differ. It definitely seems to be more of an edge case since multiple people have reached out to me to say 'yeah, I would've deleted as G11'. I will note that I've also reached out to the article creator as I'm concerned that there might be some form of upe or coi involved, given how blatantly promotional some of the language used to be. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:26, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
- And I do appreciate you gutting the promotional content, Scopecreep (it's why I thanked you for it before you left this message). I was going to do so myself but you were one step ahead of me on that. I was trying to figure out that my second thoughts weren't some colossal mistake first. I do think my approach to the situation wasn't completely terrible... There is some salvageable content worth merging, even if the product might not be notable enough for its own article. G11s typically don't cite the New York Times or have anything worth salvaging, in my experience. I was trying to take the warning on Wikipedia:Deletion isn't cleanup to heart, as speedy deletion is a kind of unilateral action that doesn't have the same oversight as other processes like AfD. WP:G11 also states that
Thanks and favor request
Hi Clover, thank you for helping me with my reference library questions during our meetup today. As discussed, I was wondering if you could do me a favor and help me to obtain a copy of this online article [18] that I don't have a subscription to. It helps with an article subject I am working on. Much appreciated! :) --PeaceNT (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2024 (UTC)