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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Paintspot (talk | contribs) at 20:05, 25 May 2024 (→‎Requested move 24 May 2024: Oppose.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


And then what?

I have noticed a lot of dangling threads in this article, which I'm going to go through and tag. Most of these take the form of, e.g. On March 23 at 13:24 UTC, Musk said that he was going to 'ban the hell out of that guy' or something along those lines, and then... nothing. Did he do it? Was the guy banned at all? Is he still banned? What does the guy think about this? We should be able to provide information like that. jp×g🗯️ 23:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Man, there are a lot of these. Some of this stuff seems like it does pass the test of time, but some of it really does not. Like this: By December 17, Twitter was blocking some links to Mastodon as being "potentially harmful" or "malware".. What... happened? Was anyone banned for this? Did anything happen? Did it get enforced and then lifted? If it's not still the case, when was the policy lifted? If we can't find anything along those lines in news coverage, we should probably treat it as a one-off event (e.g. "on December 17, it was reported that links to blah blah blah were being blocked due to whatever"), rather than phrase it like this is a continuing thing. jp×g🗯️ 00:23, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, I've started to go through these "needs update" tags, resolving the issues you are correctly raising. I'm by no means done but dealt with about half of these so far. For reference, some were very useful, like after NPR ceased activity on Twitter, this did require an update to explain that 6 months later they still no longer use Twitter, and the negligible effects this has had. However, I did find some of tags inaccurate. For example many paragraphs in the state-affiliated media section had these tags, but the final sentence adequately summarised the end result; that Twitter stopped using these labels entirely, even if there was a little extra info that could be added for clarity. Some of these simply needed a WP:CLARIFY tag, rather than a needs update, in order to bring the information up to date, or a least a better reason for needing updating.
I've also tried to correct some the wording/phrasing if you also correctly pointed out, where there is no further information avoiding giving the impression that the event is ongoing or present as it were. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:27, 1 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Restructure of sections proposal

Proposing a change to the structure of 2nd headed sections to include "Policy changes". I still feel this page is a bit of a "mess" when it comes to structure, as not every 3rd headed section falls into the sub-section of "Content moderation" or "Other developments", and I wouldn't describe "Policy changes" as content moderation either. I already made a few moves, but thought I'd check with others on a bolder re-arrange.

---

Corporate management 

   Layoffs and mass resignations
   Resignation poll
   Corporate value

Content moderation 

   Initial reforms
   Misinformation and disinformation
   Increase in hate speech
   Pentagon leaks
   Child sexual abuse

Policy changes 

   Account suspensions
       ElonJet and journalists suspended
   State-affiliated media labeling
   Tweet views and messaging limits
   Announced removal of user blocking
   API changes

Developments 

   Verification program
   Revamp and rebrand
   Engagement with Musk's tweets
   Delaying links to external websites
   User engagement

Antisemitism controversies 

   Toggle Antisemitism controversies subsection
   Leo Frank disinformation
   Anti-ADL tweet campaign
   Musk amplification of antisemitism
   Media Matters analysis and lawsuit

Reactions and commentary

---

This would also be changing "Other developments" simply to "Developments". I'm sure there are further improvements to the structure of the page, so any feedback/proposals is appreciated. I'm aware there are other improvements/updates necessary for this page, especially if it is to be moved to X (social media), but I also think a better structure overall would help with that. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:02, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to X (social network)

Twitter under Elon Musk's management is now known as X, it would make sense for the article about the recent history of Twitter to use this name. Flameoguy (talk) 16:14, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes this has been proposed already: Talk:Twitter_under_Elon_Musk#Proposed_split_of_Twitter over the main talk page Talk:Twitter#Survey CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 May 2024

Twitter under Elon Musk → X (social network) – See Talk:Twitter#Requested move 17 May 2024 elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 19:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: I mean I’m not sure if the public would like this, Twitter would have to be renamed, Twitter (2006-2022) (or 2023) I mean it’s plausible. But I’m not sure this article can be X (social network). I have not made up my mind yet & I’ll think about this before I choose. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Like, this whole article would have to look similar to the Twitter article that’s up right now. & I’m not sure if someone is willing to do that. And also the article rn would have to be one of the parts in the Table of Contents in the new article. So we will have to see. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:09, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I kind of want to move it now, but I can’t. We have to agree first. But if we all agree the bot would probably move it so I wouldn’t have too. Misterunknown24 (talk) 20:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I’ve thought about it: Support. For the following reasons above. Misterunknown24 (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Twitter would not have to be moved. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support this helps to deal with the significant WP:BLP issues that this article faces which are caused by having Musk's name in the article name. This article covers the X corporation and since Musks name is in the title it by default (and incorrectly) attributes many actions to Musk, who may or may not be involved in those actions. This name change (move) will also serve to demarcate the change in ownership and structure of the new corporation. While BLP policy will of course still apply to content that is attributed to Musk on the moved article, it will not by default be incorrectly attributing every bit of X corporation to Musk. We have to AGF to Musk and that tells us that he is the chairman and owner, but not the CEO. It is UNDUE to therefore attribute all to the owner. Think of football and basketball teams, that are often owned by a billionaire who views the team as a bobble, we dont attribute the actions of the team to the owner. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 21:54, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Jtbobwaysf: what significant WP:BLP issues that this article faces are caused by having Musk in the article name vs the article (which isn't going to change)? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@The Man Without Fear, Isla, Joe vom Titan, Civic Nexus, Editior23, UltrasonicMadness, Padgriffin, Datapass, Happily888, EarthTeen, Schierbecker, GEGOBYTE, Primium, Graham11, Theimmortalgodemperor, Glman, ScottSullivan01, Matthieu Houriet, Esolo5002, Ye9CYNMD, AltendoYT, SarahJH07, Pickleishere, Melmann, Fiendpie, Skakkle, 魔琴, XtraJovial, Clearfrienda, Hurtcopain, Omnis Scientia, Botto, Félix An, Thesavagenorwegian, NegativeMP1, Panam2014, Traumnovelle, Dylnuge, Gluonz, JohnCWiesenthal, SuperMario231 64, Aitraintheeditorandgamer, Zxcvbnm, Horse Eye's Back, Patar knight, 85sl, and Quxyz. (2/2) InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:COMMONNAME. News articles and other online information dealing with the present site call it X now. Frankly I'm excited to see the site documented under the new name so that we can better preserve the history of the original twitter. Flameoguy (talk) 15:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion—blindlynx 00:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion Panam2014 (talk) 00:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support per previous discussion. Omnis Scientia (talk) 09:21, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the consensus established on Twitter that “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network”, so either “Twitter” is the current common name, or “X” is the common name. Both cannot be true at the same time. The core product also hasn’t really changed since the takeover, and the subject of this article is pretty much just controversies and complaints caused post-takeover. This feels like an attempt to sidestep the consensus established in that RM, especially as this would also call for substantial content duplication and/or merging. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The consensus in that RM was Not move. There was less consensus to move Twitter to X (social network) than there was to keep the Twitter article the way it is. Turtletennisfogwheat (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The rationale behind the Not Move was that there wasn’t consensus that “X” was a more common name than “Twitter”. As pointed out in that closing, this isn’t something we can do with just an RM.
    Can we establish that “X” is a different product from Twitter? The management changes and controversies have been cited but there was a year’s time where those still happened under the Twitter banner post-Musk. So does that retroactively belong in the “X” article? Or does it belong in Twitter? If the latter is true then what exactly is the difference between Twitter and X? Is it POV to even suggest that the two are fundamentally different products? This isn’t something you can fix with an RM, this is calling to basically change the subject matter of an entire article based on something where we weren’t able to decide if the name change is even the COMMONNAME. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Another major issue is that when do we draw the line for when Twitter became no longer Twitter? The changes started almost immediately after the takeover, but the rebranding happened a year later. You’re almost bound to end up with WP:NPOV issues because there really isn’t a clear point to draw the line. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 01:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The natural break is when Musk bought it. That's when much of the backend and policies changed. You'd need a section on Twitter to summarize the acquisition, and likely documenting when the domain names were changed, but that's just for comprehension. Masem (t) 01:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    As I pointed out in my other comment, that leaves almost an entire years worth of time where the site was unambiguously referred to as “Twitter”, even by Musk himself. Also there are obvious POV issues with suggesting that Twitter ceased to be the moment Musk bought it, in addition to POV issues with suggesting that “X” and “Twitter” are different products at all given that the status quo is that they’re being treated as the same product. Padgriffin Griffin's Nest 02:10, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Remember that within weeks of the purchase, Musk was calling it X. While we can talk about COMMONNAME aspects and why keeping Twitter where it was for that year, at that point, that when it was formally renamed to X. Thus, it absolutely makes sense that the history from the day Muck bought it that all that content makes sense at an article called X, if we are keeping a historical article on what Twitter was before Musk bought it.
    And given everything Musk has said as well as how the media have approached it, Twitter and X should be considered wholly different products. It is a unique situation compared to anything else out there, hence why the comparison to why we have two Viacom articles (reflected eras of different management) makes sense here. Masem (t) 05:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    “there is no consensus that "X" is the most commonly used name for the social network” argument fails basic logic and also policy. We follow official corpoate names, and not wikipedians opinion on names. We would still be calling alphabet as google. There is nothing in WP:NCCORP to support the argument that we will use an old corporate name because we do some WP:OR and count sources. There is also nothing in WP:MOSTM that supports the argument that we wikipedians are going to call it twitter, just because the name is better than x. I personally like the twitter name and the bird better, but this doesnt mean that I get to raise my hand and suggest the article should be called that. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I disagree. Anyone who uses the site can tell you it's quite different now that Musk runs it, and there's no sense in not acknowledging a deliberate rebranding. Flameoguy (talk) 15:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Padgriffin's sentiment. Also, for when another one of these comes up in like 2 weeks, please don't ping me for these. Neo Purgatorio (talk) 01:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: In the previous request, I supported both the initial proposal and the alternative proposal. This is effectively the alternative proposal, which had quite a lot of support in the previous request. From my understanding, a proposal similar to this was also the most popular option in a survey I participated in a few months ago at Talk:Twitter. –Gluonz talk contribs 02:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not a proper title. Using parentheses to signify a former name would be unprecedented. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 05:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for two reasons:
    1. The previous RM established Twitter as the social network's common name.
    2. Twitter/X is the same social network. This article is about a particular era of that social network's history. The proposed title would suggest that this article is about a social network itself, thus wrongly implying that either (a) X is social network that is a successor of Twitter, rather than merely a renaming of Twitter, or (b) this article is about the entire history of the social network since 2006.
Graham (talk) 03:56, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Point 2 is easily remedies with a well-written lede section and hatnotes to make sure the reader understands the content of what X (social network) is from 2023 onward while Twitter is covered elsewhere. Masem (t) 05:27, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That would paper over a genuine issue - the fact that a service changed (for the worse, some say) or that new features are planned (like payments) does not mean it is a successor. The widespread mention of "X, formerly Twitter" in reliable sources, or the seemingly unanimous media framing of the Twitter -> X move as a "rebrand" (meaning, the same service) shows that it would be WP:OR for us to treat them as separate services. DFlhb (talk) 06:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC) edited 06:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
X is not twitter. They are incredibly different sites, with different cultures and user experiences. Twitter never had paid blue checks, or a button for AI nonsense. Musk has stated that he is deliberately attempting to create a social media network on the bones of twitter, rather than simply overhaul the existing site. Flameoguy (talk) 15:31, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This move only makes sense if we treat Twitter & X as two separate networks, which would be a subjective decision. This article is fine as a child-article. It covers Twitter/X's controversies in relation to Musk, his leadership, and his impact on society (which is the precise reason why these controversies were found noteworthy by the press). Second, this article would not be fine as the "primary" article on a social network; that would change its scope and require a rewrite, to refocus on its features, technological aspects, societal impact, etc, like all of our articles on social networks. A move would create pervasive due weight issues which don't currently exist. DFlhb (talk) 06:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: This should have been done a year ago; those who still stubbornly oppose it are those who cannot keep up with change. Kerim Demirkaynak (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded. Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as people wish it was. Twitter isn't around anymore. Flameoguy (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I recognise the strength of oppose arguments that Twitter remains the commonname including for Twitter under Musk. But the point of COMMONNAME and WP:NAMECHANGES is that the name must be recognisable. Twitter under Elon Musk as a subject is very recognisably the X social network. The split makes sense, because Musk very clearly bought the network and maked it something else. Keeping this as Twitter under Elon Musk would not be a worng result for now, but at some point it will definitely need this change, whereas the Twitter article can be repurposed and the old name kept, which will always be more sensible for an article on the Twitter era, which would not really make much sense under the new name. It could be a touch too early for the change, but ultimately this is the way it should be, and it will not be confusing - indeed it will be less confusing - to make this change. For that reason, we should just get on and do it. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – As much as I personally don't like it, the network has officially changed its name. Svartner (talk) 08:30, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per everyone above and per COMMONNAME and NAMECHANGES, It actually makes sense to have 2 articles as without making this 10x long it would be impossible and confusing to have it all under one article, We should preserve all history we have being an Encyclopedia and all, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 08:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The above claims that Twitter and X are different things are pure WP:OR and not at all supported by reliable sources, which almost universally refers to the site as "X (formerly Twitter)". The fundamentals of Twitter, including its user base, mode of operation, technical details and history remain the same. WP:NAMECHANGES tells us to rename the article Twitter as and when the new name has become the most common in reliable sources. What it does not tell us to do is to fork off a new article under the new name, just because a few Wikipedians think it's not the same website.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Isn't there a good reason Londinium and London have two different articles? Why not Twitter and X (social network). Flameoguy (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support: per previous rough consensus established months ago, as well as strong support for re-naming in previous RM. I see some opposition claiming that consensus wasn't established in previous RM for a name-change, but that RM has nothing to do with re-naming this article as X (social network), as others have explained. The article is question otherwise documents the transition from Twitter into X, so it seems entirely appropriate for it to reflect the article X (social network), especially given the clear lack of consensus to re-name the Twitter article as X in previous RM. This implies re-naming this article has been green lit, in the context of a lack of conflict with the Twitter article that won't be re-named to X anytime in the future it seems. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 10:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Once the rename happens we could split content from Twitter here Isla🏳️‍⚧ 11:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That would be good to do. People are complaining about due weight issues as though this article isn't warranting a rewrite anyway. Flameoguy (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. If not Twitter as a whole, then I guess just under Musk is fine. Altendo 12:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. Fundamentally (and in terms of legal continuity) the site is still the same, just with major refocusing of moderation, audience priorities, and obviously the rebrand. As discussed at the Twitter RM, most RS still use a FKA Twitter qualifier when writing about X, and many still just use the old name without mentioning the new one. There is also the issue that the X rebrand is not entirely chronologically synchronous with Musk's takeover, which this proposal doesn't address. Until X becomes the common name for the site, these articles should be consistent with each other. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions 12:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, Twitter under Elon Musk is a history page not a general topic page (its one period of the History of Twitter)... So you could propose to move it to History of X or History of Twitter 2022-2024 but not X (social network) which feels like an end run around the community rejecting ElijahPepe proposal to move Twitter to X (social network) which was opened by Pepe on 17 May and closed on the 24th (same day this was opened). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It is presently not a general topic on X, but part of my whole proposal (first made in the previous page move request) would be to move content from Twitter to X so that it becomes a page about X as a social media service with significant different policies and wealth of criticism and controversy that are different than pre-Musk Twitter. Simply selling this idea as a page move is not capturing the full suggestion that I had. Masem (t) 12:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If it matters I oppose most of the other parts of your suggestion, but primarily because I don't think they accomplish your goals I think they do the opposite and the will leave both readers and editors worse off. Good goals though. What I don't like is the appearance of forum shopping, which one move request being opened the same day the other is closed looks like. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:52, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Can't address the forum shopping (I was planning over this weekend to make my proposal for formal discussion). But I question why this approach would be confusing to readers and editors. Twitter everything before the acquisition, X after, the split is extremely clean. Hatnotes and ledes to make it clear where a reader should go if they were looking for X content but landed on Twitter. Masem (t) 13:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thats an argument for having a History of Twitter and a History of X... Not for having neither. I appreciate that you would have done a better job of proposing the changes. I just think that fundamentally we have too much coverage we need to include to meet NPOV to do it on the main pages... Its been necessary with a lot of the other majors (History of Facebook, History of YouTube, etc) One thing I can agree with is that the timeline page is questionable (even if they seem to exist for others like Timeline of Instagram) and should be rolled into history pages where available (as it is at History of Facebook). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 13:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • @ElijahPepe: was this opened because your request to move Twitter to X (social network) was rejected? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 12:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, since the previous move on the mother page has failed, this should not be moved. Also, I feel like Twitter under Musk seems to describe the essence of the takeover better. ✶Quxyz✶ 13:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Horse Eye's Back. I still believe it should be Twitter that's moved to X (social network). XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 14:22, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment In discussions with HEB on Talk:Twitter, a fair question that one should ask themselves here is if Twitter and X are individually notable topics that merit their own standalone pages. I myself think yes, but I can also understand the position that they presentally are not, though with everything Musk has said about his intent for the platform, in time it will be harder to justify that position as he converts X into something closer to WeChat. However, that all said, if there is not consensus on that, it may be a question to asked at a future time (like at least a year from now). --Masem (t) 14:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    as he converts X into something closer to WeChat at the risk of stating the obvious, this is typical Musk hype, and a self-serving narrative. Facebook added payments a decade ago and didn't turn into WeChat (nor into a "different"/successor service); the feature saw no adoption and was abandoned. Nothing says an "everything app" is possible in the West, especially Twitter, which has low marketshare and can't have the winner-takes-all effects that made WeChat an everything app. So far his only *major* changes are moderation (his motive for acquisition, to affect politics) and monetization (required by the debt load & ad exodus). He plans to add all the wondrous features of an "everything" app, but with 20% of the workforce, less profits, and fewer users? So far it's vaporware. The users who feel Twitter "is dead" or unrecognizable only feel that way because moderation has a huge impact, not because anything else really changed substantively. DFlhb (talk) 20:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose because the current contents of this page is more about the transition, the controversy and the politics rather than the social network itself as a platform. Generally speaking I oppose the split because the function of the platform (thinking in terms of social role and impact) has not changed significantly after the takeover. As a somewhat quirky analogy, you don't split the White House article after every president change just because of politics. The function remains the same. It could be argued that Musk is pushing Twitter/X towards something radically different than pre-Musk Twitter, but as of today, it hasn't happened in my opinion. I acknowledge that there are many moving parts in this discussion, it's complicated, and this is why strong consensus should be reached before taking action. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 15:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    X is a young platform and most people don't like the changes Musk has made. Of course much of the content of an article on it would deal with transition, controversy, and politics. Naturally after the move there is a lot more that can be added to the article. Flameoguy (talk) 15:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Stating "most people don't like the changes Musk has made" is not WP:NPOV in my opinion. I would agree that most people (including myself) don't like the rebranding for valid, objective reasons that have been stated many times. But other changes like community notes have many supporters. Furthermore, I don't think article naming decisions should be made based on any of that. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 15:51, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Soft support with conditions:
  • This is obvious but this article needs significant re-synthesis and expansion. I'm assuming that would happen early on.
  • Significant sections from the Twitter article should be summarised into this article, including its history, with a see also link.
  • The Twitter article be eventually moved to Twitter (2006-2023), or maybe merged with Twitter, Inc., to prevent continuity issues.
I see this move request as more of a compromise than anything as keeping everything as is for now may meet WP:Article titles better. I did write this essay about why it's going to be difficult (perhaps ever) to move Twitter to X (social network) on the other move request and this option allows for an article about X without the WP:Article titles issues from moving Twitter itself. However, the Viacom (1952–2005) and Viacom (2005-2019) use parenthetical disambiguation and having two articles about the same platform may not follow WP:Notability without them.
I'm unlikely to be as active in further discussions as I'm trying to withdraw from the subject. 𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓔𝓭𝓾𝓬𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓐𝓾𝓭𝓲𝓽𝓸𝓻 18:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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