Talk:Muhammad

Important notice: Prior discussion has determined that pictures of Muhammad will not be removed from this article, and removal of pictures without discussion at Talk:Muhammad/images will be reverted. If you find these images offensive, it is possible to configure your browser not to display them; for instructions, see the FAQ. Discussion of images should be posted to the subpage Talk:Muhammad/images.

Important notice: Wikipedia's Muhammad FAQ addresses some common points of argument, such as the use of images and honorifics such as "peace be upon him". The FAQ represents the consensus of editors here. If you are new to this article and have a question or suggestion for it, please read the FAQ first.

---

Archives
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 Image archives 1, 2, 3, 4 Mediation Archives Request for Clarification/Muslim Guild Statements Clarity discussion/Refining positions Ars' final archive The rest of the mediation by Ars Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive Index

Need clarification

Hi folks, just asking for a clarification here: " and after eight years of fighting with the Meccan tribes, his followers, who by then had grown to ten thousand, conquered Mecca." In this instance, does "conquered" refer to a violent event, or is it meant in the spiritual sense? Thanks, Duagloth (talk) 16:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

How would one conquer a city spiritually? Arrow740 (talk) 20:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

@Arrow740: If some body will forcibly wear you a skirt besides u are a man.so will u wear skirts all over ur life.how come you say many of them where converted forcibly.....You people only know how to critisize Islam..But GOD's Grace ISLAM is going to live for ever. You have jeliusy that how come muslims folllow their religion as it was.there is no change in our religion.unlike other religions which are changed day by day.Some of them release their new versions of their religion books... So please stop critisizing aur religion and do research ur own religion and you will find answer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.173.97.158 (talk) 12:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Willing conversion, capturing the hearts and minds of the people. -Bikinibomb (talk) 20:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

They knew they had no chance so they surrendered. There were some forced conversions, however. Arrow740 (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Duagloth, the conquest of Mecca was peaceful. Muhammad asked two or three persons to leave Mecca before he enters it unless they convert (what Arrow is calling forced conversion). --Be happy!! (talk) 22:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The sources actually differ. One source says that everyone in Mecca converted to Islam, "willingly or unwillingly," while others indicate that this was not the case. It is more certain that there were twenty or so holdouts who were killed when Muhammad took over. Arrow740 (talk) 22:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

it seems clarification is required. The word conquer must not be used here, and its unaccurate. When Muhammad peace upon him started telling people about Islam, he was fought by people because it asked for justice and equality between poor and the rich. the Rich didnt like that and started their voilance and tortures on everyone that became a muslims. suprisingly people still converted, and the tortures only increased.which caused Muhammad and his followers to leave THEIR OWN COUNTRY,LAND, MONEY, HOUSES AND OTHER BELONGINGS, and they only cared for their believes. Muslims and those who tortured them came to an agreement to stop any fights, but it was voilated by the Mekkah people, and as a result Muslims went to Mekkah to regain what is actually theirs. even though they muslims were stronger, all those who tortured them in the past were forgiven. In islam there is not such thing as forcing people to be muslims, so those who converted done it on their own. they might have done it for their own reasons, but at the end it was their desicion. So conquer is when a person takes a land that doesnt belong to him, take it by force, and oppress its people. not return to your own house after you were forced out of it, and forgive those who actually hurt you and fought you for years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.60.40.174 (talk) 16:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

'Conquered' just means that Muhammad assumed control of Mecca, the Kaaba etc. It doesn't imply a great deal of violence, though some did take place, most notably the list of individuals to be killed on sight. However, there was much less violence than in other battles, thus 'conquest' is more appropriate than 'battle' or 'raid' in this context. This is also the word used by Al-Tabari (volume 8, page 160) in the headline of that very chapter. The term 'Gazwa' (a raid led by Muhammad himself) is of course appropriate, too. There were 27 of those recorded, and many were significantly more violent than the conquest of Mecca. I think 'conquest' is a nice, non-offensive term that describes events appropriately. Sources: Ibn Ishaq, Al-Tabari Henrik R Clausen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.57.133.219 (talk) 10:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Captured" seems like a better synonym, with less baggage. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

why cant i edit this page ?

last time i heard every one was allowed to edit wikipedia, what happened to that ? this is sad. please explain the reasoning behing this.

--digitalSurgeon (talk) 17:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Roughly speaking, persistant vandalism of the page has forced us to disabling editing for anonymous editors and new accounts. Accounts older than four days can still edit normally. Although sad, it's truly necessary, feel free to peruse the history to see what's happened when protection has been lifted. WilyD 17:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The page is fully protected now (i.e., not even fully registered ordinary editors can edit), presumably because of a petition currently circulating against Wikipedia protesting the inclusion of images. —Steve Summit (talk) 21:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The page was fully protected due to the edit warring over the images. Nakon 21:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It's fully protected because editors keep coming in and removing the images, changing them, or just in general creating a ruckus. Jmlk17 21:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So it was, I'll change the template. WilyD 21:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So the page is only editable by those in favour of upsetting Muslims..? If its been protected why hasnt a version that does not depict his picture be protected?

Because we're not censored, and no page exists that is censored. Jmlk17 01:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Because we only have one version of an article and the consensus of the editors here is that the pictures should remain in the article. --Fredrick day (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"Because we're not censored" - But are happy knowing that Muslims are deeply upset by it, and have also removed their privilages of removing the image. To be fair its a page about Muhammad; the picture's do not educate the visitors about him in the slightest bit. Not what I thought wikipedia was about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 01:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Until recently, neither I nor any other non-administrator could edit the article either. Additionally, I find the images to be very relevant and useful.--C.Logan (talk) 10:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of sites our there that will willingly censor and cave into demands for it. But Wikipedia is a site that does not do that... no one is forcing you to view the pictures, and as we are not censored (again), we do not have to cave into demands and outrages. It's what makes us special. Jmlk17 01:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Its not about caving into demands. There's no need to be defensive about all this. Just need to be a little sensible. The bottom line is, that the pictures "do not add any value" to the article. Rather it has already upset over 80,000 muslims who have petitioned against it. Further to this you have removed their privilages of removing material that is irrelevant to who Muhammad was.

(od) Actually, I find the images highly relevant, and informative. Historical depictions of Muhammad are notable, and belong in an article discussing him. Resolute 02:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In what sensible way are they relevent? They obviously do not look like him. He (Muhammad) obviously did not want depictions of him. There is NO relevance and NO extra knowledge on him is gained. "belong in an article discussing him" - with the protection of the article in favour of those who are happy with upsetting the Muslims, I fail to see the discussion as you have described. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 08:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

They are relevant in that they depict how Muslims viewed Muhammad. Your modern desires to have the images removed do not trump the historical value of them. As far as protecting the article in favour of those that are "happy with upsetting Muslims", it is your decision to view the article, any offence is yours alone. Of course, while you may choose to convince yourself that this is some kind of anti-Muslim stance, I note in the edit history that vandals have attacked this article numerous times when it was not protected. The protection works both ways, and has helped prevent petty vandalism aimed specifically at upsetting Muslims. Resolute 15:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In the way that no one knows what Muhammad would have though, and that they are in for educational purposes. End of story. Jmlk17 08:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"In the way that no one knows what Muhammad would have though," - theres something quite not right about the grammar there. "and that they are in for educational purposes" - like I said, in what sensible way do they educate the reader about who Muhammad was?. "End of story." - Huh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 08:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason why the picture shouldn't be included given that historical pictures of Jesus are included.TCPWIKI (talk)

historical pictures of [[Jesus]] are included? Is this relevant in this case. Did anyone ask for the removal of pictures of Jesus(PBUH).

No, but that's part of the point. Jmlk17 06:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But if the was a large number of people who we're upset by it, they would and should be allowed to remove it. I believe called democracy, not freedom to insult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 08:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is, first and foremost, not a democracy- of course, what you seem to be claiming doesn't appear to have direct relevance to the concept in any case. Wikipedia has rules, and operates by general consensus. One of our foundational rules is that we do not censor images or text though it may offend some individuals or groups of people. Ever. Consensus has determined that these pictures are of value to the subject, and have great historical relevance as well.

This is a secular encyclopedia, and therefore religious considerations do not play a factor in presentation. These are images created by Muslims with the intent of depicting Muhammad. They are what they are, so I fail to see the bitterness over a non-Muslim encyclopedia displaying images pertaining to the subject.--C.Logan (talk) 10:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy and neither is the United States. Learn some history! The United States is a democratic republic and is not a nation governed by mob rule, it is a nation governed by the rule of law, one of which states that we have freedom of speech. The image has a right to be posted and you have a right to complain and Wikipedia has the right to deny. Lunchboxem (talk) 13:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)lunchboxem

• snip*Consensus has determined that these pictures are of value to the subject, and have great historical relevance as well.*endsnip* - Consensus of a few who are happy to insult Muslims verses the conses of the hundreds of thousands who have already expressed their disapproval. *snip*and have great historical relevance as well.*endsnip* - Maybe the history of paintings, but it has little relevance to the topic of Muhammad which the article is about. Bearing in mind that Muhammad did not approve of any artform depicting him. It is understood by Wikipedia that this upsets Muslims very much. Responding with those who do not wish to see should not come here is weak. It does not take a genius to work out that a large proportion of visitors to this page are Muslim, it is a large proportion that Wikipedia are willing to upset, knowing that its against what Muhammad and Islam teaches, with material that has no relevance to the article. Wiki has protected this article in the name of protecting against vandalism. However, it appears that that the piece that is being protected has been vandalised in the greatest way. *snip*so I fail to see the bitterness over a non-Muslim encyclopedia displaying images pertaining to the subject.*endsnip* - you just have to look atthe number of people who are upset by it to understand. you just have to look into what Muhammad said about depictions about him to understand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.114.50.132 (talk) 18:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, sorry you're upset, but honestly, these relevant and artful images are here to stay, and in a non-censored website, they have no right to be removed. Jmlk17 18:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a solution. Could the pictures be on a different page (linked). Something like Muhammad(Pictures) - This article could discuss beliefs about images of Muhammad as well as the pictures. It might be less offensive and (I feel) reduce the dispute about this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.162.102 (talk) 17:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

A separate article discussing the controversies that showing images of Muhammad would certainly be notable, but to remove them from this article to that end would still be censoring this article. I don't see the need for Wikipedia to alter its policies to placate this group. Resolute 18:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

See Depictions of Muhammad. -- tariqabjotu 18:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I love wikipedia. WHy? Cause its the best UNCENSORED encyclopedia in the world. NOT BECAUSE IT IS A MUSLIM ENCYCLOPEDIA. We dont want you censorship here, next are you going to tell us to take down pictures of our women because it offends you? Or take down pictures of all our women who arent completely covered like lepoards? We dont live under your RULE, this is a free encyclopedia, deal with it or leave.Mike240se (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. Any argument regarding the intentional offense a specific group is irrelevant as long as the information is factual or the represented content actually exists. It is a source of information that strives to be unbiased and thorough. Removal of content based on a particular group's wishes constitutes bias. Removal of factual content from a relevant topic would cause this source of information to become incomplete, again, affecting the accuracy of the article. Intentionally causing an article to become incomplete would set a dangerous precedent. Such action could call into question the accuracy of all articles within. While the intentions of those attempting to remove content may be honorable, to do so would erode the foundation of this great and noble project and tarnish it's reputation as a free and open source of unbiased and uncensored information. Hardley C. Cure 63.82.71.140 (talk) 21:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

use of "to conquer"

Don't do this please. You r not alloed to Draw Picture of Muhammad (PBUH) Please Rempve them Adnan (ISB) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.99.177.146 (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC) 212.116.219.107 (talk) 11:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Irfan

You are not "alloed" to tell us what is allowed and what isn't allowed. Most of the world isn't Muslim, doesn't want to be Muslim, and would fight if Muslims tried to impose it on them. Get over it.Scott Adler (talk) 23:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure we are, wikipedia is not an islamic encyclopedia. We don't follow islamic law. Zazaban (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You dont have to follow islamic Laws to give respect to others' feelings. and to what laws do u really follow ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.60.81.12 (talk) 22:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Censorship is different than respecting others feelings. Should we delete the article on Masturbation or anal sex because the subject matter is often considered offensive? No. And about the laws; I am an anarchist, so I don't suppose I do follow a set of laws. I don't find them to be useful or justified. Neither is censorship. Zazaban (talk) 02:13, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think, you are missing the point Zazaban. I suggest you get yourself more educated on the prophet Muhammad, before posting comments.

^^^ This is hilarious. I actually almost because a muslim once, and joined an islamic forum. Not to mention the huge interest I have in religion. I've read the entire history of Muhmmad's life several times for god's sake! I suggest you get yourself more educated on Zazaban, before posting comments. Also, how on earth am I missing the point? Could you be willing to explain that one? Zazaban (talk) 04:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think, you are missing the point Random Anonymous Person, I suggest you get yourself more educated on the website Wikipedia, before posting comments. JuJube (talk) 04:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Amen to that.--C.Logan (talk) 07:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If one looks into the English translations of the Sirat, the works 'fight', 'battle', 'raid' and 'attack' are used more or less interchangeably, and it is described in detail how the Muslims conquer settlements and share the booty (as per Sura 8). 'Conquest' is an appropriate term to use, and is surely less aggressive than the terms 'raid' or 'attack' used in the scripture. Avoiding 'conquest' would constitute undue whitewashing. References: Ibn Ishaq & Al-Tabari, tables of content. Henrik R Clausen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.57.133.219 (talk) 09:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Is full protection necessary?

Is it necessary? Most of editwars seems to come from new accounts or IPs. --Be happy!! (talk) 23:33, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

A number are coming from sleeper accounts as well though, hence the full. :) Jmlk17 23:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, blocking such persistent accounts seems to a better choice because after expiration of this protection, the edit war may resume again. Those accounts have to learn that like it or not, they are a pushing a minority view. --Be happy!! (talk) 23:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll reduce the protection to semi for a while and see what happens. If the edit warring over the images resumes, I'll reprotect. Nakon 23:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks --Be happy!! (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it as well. Let's hope it works! Jmlk17 00:06, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont understand, since many editors are editting the images, then obviously there is a quite enough number of writers who want these images out... isnt this the purpose of wikipedia. Or those images are so important to stay that you even violate the whole reason wikiperdia was established on.

Anyone is free to edit Wikipedia... constructively. This whole removing the established, purposeful, and relevant image thing isn't constructive. Jmlk17 04:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

<sigh> Since people refuse to talk on this talk page, and continue to remove and revert the images out of the article, it has to be fully protected again. Jmlk17 07:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

By your logic, since there's quite a number of editors who seem to think the Earth article should be replaced by "Mostly harmless", we should go ahead and let them. JuJube (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, remember that wikipedia is WP:NOT a democracy, but a ... fact-ocracy. NPOVarchy. Whatever. Those are the principles on which WP was founded on - principles trump concensus.--Wikinterpreter (talk) 22:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see any "factual" resemblance of the images to Muhammad. Not that he allowed anyone to make drawings of him. In fact the images on this article have no purpose other than upsetting the Muslims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry you are upset. But that alone is no reason to remove the images. Jmlk17 08:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well if you've read any of the above, it is not that alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.106.104 (talk) 08:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The images aren't here to upset Muslims. They are here because of their historical relevance and the related educational value and relevance to the subject which they possess.--C.Logan (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Appearance of Muhammad

Any idea how one can incorporate this kind of information to the article [1]? in a table with the subtitle "Appearance and Manner"? --Be happy!! (talk) 23:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

My question would be - is it necessary to include such a level of detail in physical description in this article? It is fairly long as it is. ^Avruchtalk 23:57, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the appearance information seem to be interesting especially when we have reliable sources talking about it. Some readers might be interested to see how Muhammad looked like. That would in part address some of the objection made above regarding the informativeness of the drawings.--Be happy!! (talk)

I'm not sure how - I would much rather see a visual depiction of his appearance than try to imagine it based on written descriptions. Not the most neutral of descriptions in this case, either. ^Avruchtalk 00:32, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is important to have these descriptions, because these descriptions are more valid and correct, since it came from people who actually saw the prophet. While the depiction, no one can be sure of its truthfullness since, non were drawn while he was alive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prince charming456 (talk • contribs) 04:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

And we know that how? JuJube (talk) 04:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

you will find that documented in all the Islamic books talking about the prophet peace upon him. the same description is everywhere. no one has changed or added to it a single world. that is verified scientifically. You may refer to any book talking about the descritpions of the prophet, and make sure yourself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.60.81.12 (talk • contribs) 18:39, February 3, 2008 (UTC)

It may be "documented in all the Islamic books..." and so on (and I would be interested in seeing how you scientifically document that not one jot nor tittle has been altered), but what remains is that images of Mohammed were made, both historically and in contemorary times. I understand that displaying these images may be offensive to some Muslims, but you are in a free forum here. If you do not wish to be offended, then do not come. As long as the facts are correct, then they may be displayed. The depictions exist, ergo they may be displayed. There are MANY depictions of Christianity (and Christ) I find offensive, but in a society with freedom of speech and freedom of expression these depictions cannot be censored (nor would I want them to be. God is bigger than that). Indeed the highest command of Christianity is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I do not wish MY speech to be censored or restrained, and hence I must respect others right to say what they will (with obvious exceptions, "FIRE!" in a crowded theatre). MY faith is not damaged by what OTHERS say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.198.192 (talk) 16:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

FAQ improvement possibility.

Even though it seems that nobody even bothers to read the FAQ, it could certainly be a bit more solid and developed. We've gotten a few arguments which, while still utterly flawed, are semi-common and deserve a clear response (lest others follow in these same footsteps).

There are, I think, some fundamental misunderstandings between the resident editors and these concerned visitors. Notice, for example, the difficulty found in grasping simple concepts such as "illustrative depiction". Notice one of the poorest and yet most prevalent argument: that the images are "incorrect".

The FAQ touches on these arguments, but it could certainly do much more. Let's not let this plague of topics and repetitive posting go to waste- incorporate some of the discussion into the FAQ. Perhaps it would be best to start with an introduction which explains- generally- the concepts of "depiction", "neutrality", "censorship". After this introduction, a presentation of the common arguments/questions would be appropriate. I hope somebody agrees on this; the FAQ is a nice tool that we can turn to, but it's only moderately effective at this point. Improving it will save everyone quite a bit of time in the future, as all major arguments will already have a clear response.--C.Logan (talk) 08:01, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Want me to give it a try? Maybe I should try it anyway... Be bold and all. What do you think? -- RaspK FOG (talk) 19:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, by all means.--C.Logan (talk) 20:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

pictures, wikipedia servers

Since Wikipedia servers are located in Florida, does that mean if someone proposes an initiative in Florida to ban pictures of muhammed from being shown and it passes then Wikipedia would have to remove thier pictures no matter what the consensus is?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.251.11 (talk • contribs) 04:33, February 3, 2008 (UTC-6)

no, the proposition would have to be passed into law, and that would never happen. Zazaban (talk) 09:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not at all how it works. That would be complete and utter censorship, as well as a free speech issue. Jmlk17 10:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

The servers aren't all based in Florida, and the company is now incorporated in California. Still, if California tried to pass such a law it would get knocked down pretty quick in federal court. Good thought though. ^Avruchtalk 14:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

First amendment, anonymous genius. JuJube (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, JuJube. I was going to say that... haha. нмŵוτнτ 16:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to play the Devil's Advocate here, but say it was actually passed into law. Then what? --64.173.240.130 (talk) 00:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It would mean we're now living in a police state, and wikipedia would probably already be gone. 132.170.160.115 (talk) 16:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It depends on whether the foundation is willing to spend money on a court case they could win with ease - they might, they might not. We'd have to see. WilyD 16:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt the foundation would even have to do anything. Civil Rights groups would do the work for it. Courts would immediately squash the law as unconstitutional, both as a violation of the right to free speech, and on the separation of church and state. There isn't a politician in the US who would want his name associated with a bill that would be unconstitutional. Resolute 16:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I love this country

The United States is the greatest place to be because we are allowed to express ourselves without fear of repercussion. We can talk about everything including other religeons and whether we agree or disagree with their beliefs. I am a Christian and I have no problem with any article depicting an image of Jesus Christ. I may get offended at some depending on the actual depiciton, but I get over it. The bible also mentions graven images, but it also mentions worship in the same context. Reading this article does not mean we are worshipping the internet. If you are offended, get over it. The bible also mentions those who have a haughty spirit.......... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rudebagel (talk • contribs) 20:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I Second love of this free country. I am glad i dont live in a state with "Religious Police" that arrest women for having coffee in starbucks with coworkers. Although if i had a small penis i might be happy about that kind of law. Mike240se (talk) 09:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

A new suggestion

I have a new suggestion. The page Muhammad redirects into a disambiguation page like this [2] in which two versions of the article are presented. One with images and the other without images. The editors can then choose the version they want to see. This is not censoring because the readers can simply choose their preferred version. It will not set a precedent for say pornography pictures because those who get offended by the pornography pictures are not very likely to visit the related articles while those who are Muslim are likely to visit Muhammad, so the very higher chance. So it can not serve as a precedent as such. Furthermore, it will not really be a fork because the two versions differ only in terms of the images. In fact, we may be able to recall the same article with a parameter showing the choice of pictures being shown or not being shown (just like templates can receive parameters)--Be happy!! (talk) 10:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am against this idea. I understand what you are saying, but where would we draw the line? This could easily start a precedent where we have a censored and uncensored version of Wikipedia for everything potentially offensive. What's next? An article explaining pornography without images because someone might get offended? I'm not trying to compare the two, but I hope you get where I am coming from. Jmlk17 10:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is where we draw the line: If many editors visit an article while not expecting to be exposed to an image causing "shock, disgust, or revulsion", then that should be avoided without any prior notification. This is like the R-rated notice at the beginning of films, or other such notices that are common. When an editor visits pornography articles, by virtue of doing that, he should however expect to see something of that sort there and no prior notice is necessary. I think this can be made more precise if needed. --Be happy!! (talk) 10:49, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am unsure how others feel about the issue, but at the time I see no problem with the possibility of "warnings"- we have them already, I believe, for plot information and the like. Of course, I'm speaking of warnings which would be placed on the page itself. The inclusion of a warning or note on the page (as is the case on the Bahá'u'lláh page) is hardly objectionable.--C.Logan (talk) 11:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

If we can place the "warnings" before people actually see the images, that would be great. If they are further given the chance to choose one version or the other, that would be better. This way everybody would be happy. Cheers, --Be happy!! (talk) 20:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I am completely against this idea. Bowing to this pressure is bad news for wikipedia and a sliperly slope. There should be one article with pictures, period. Why? I wont waste the time its been discussed up and down but i will say no censorship on wikipedia! Mike240se (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe that this suggestion brought up by Be happy!! should not be completely discarded as "caving in". Free speech can still coincide with respectful consideration for religion. This especially rings true since this article is part of the series on Islam, which Muslim readers might use for reference. I don't see any problem with having a disclaimer at the top giving the option to view this article with or without the controversial images. Some compromise (i.e. Wikipedia:Truce) can be made here without setting a negative precedent due to the unique nature of this delicate subject. Here is good article to reference for everyone: [3]-- Soonerzbt (talk) 17:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How is it NOT a content folk? This will never fly because of the precendent it would set. --Fredrick day (talk) 10:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Placing this here due to edit conflicts:

It is really up to community judgment whether or not this would count as a violation of WP:POVFORK. Additionally, this will still likely set a precedent: other articles with "offensive" imagery would have a prior case for the justification of "censored" forks being created in those instances as well.

These are all simply patchy solutions to a problem which exists only in the minds of a particular group of users- a group which, as has apparently been evidenced, misunderstand policies and concepts which drive Wikipedia and other encyclopedias as well (no offense to Aminz, who is clearly trying to provide productive solutions to satisfy all parties).

I am no veteran of prior discussion on this issue, so I can't say I am familiar with the original arguments "for" and "against" the inclusion of these images in the original discussion (which led to the current decision). Therefore, I am unaware as to whether or not anyone has elucidated on Muslim concerns with both articulation and familiarity with policies (and a thorough understanding of opposing arguments). The current posts, sincere though they may be, are entirely useless as they do not understand the requirements placed upon editors and/or the founding principles of this encyclopedia.

I personally do not quite understand the stigma with images in the context of an encyclopedia reporting in the interest of neutrality. I see images which may seem offensive to me, but I do not object to the right to intellectual interest and freedom. I can separate, in my mind, that which I believe and must ascribe to and that which is apparent and which, quite simply, is "out there" in the world. Because I feel this way, it is difficult for me to agree with requests for removal out of "respect", as it appears quite clear to me to be an infringement upon my own personal rights and upon the rights of other users who aren't obligated to abide by religious requirements.

There are two possible solutions for bridging this apparent gap in thinking: first, that we utilize the most recent discussions as a guideline to expand the FAQ. This will save us a great deal of time in the future, as I feel that if the FAQ reaches a point where it can truly "speak for itself", then we will have more time to devote to actually improving the article. Second, I feel that a user who may understand the concerns of these users should address the issues with policy in mind; for example, Aminz or any other user who may themselves be more familiar with these concepts may wish to point out which arguments should be discarded completely (being indefensible in the face of policy) and which should be given due consideration (preferably because of the possible flexibility of policy rather than due to the personal feelings of the user).

I suggest this latter possibility because it will improve the FAQ itself, and because I worry that, as I have noted above, there appears to be a mistranslation between the (largely "Western") editors here and the anons/new users so concerned with removing the images. While I feel that "no censorship" is a policy we should abide by without compromise, I also feel that we should be respectful of the concerns of others (no matter how many times arguments are heard and how "straw-grasping" they may seem to us) and should be certain that we answer all concerns so that, if even by a remote chance, one might leave the discussion with a sense of understanding as to why Wikipedia is so staunch in keeping the pictures, and why (despite what our underlying suspicions may cause us to believe) no one is intentionally trying to anger or offend anyone else.

The freedom we cherish in the Western world can be a double-edged sword, to be sure- but the risk is worth taking. We do not censor material, and if the integrity of the site is to be preserved, we will never do so. Let's keep in mind why we're here, and make sure that the uninitiated may understand why as well.--C.Logan (talk) 10:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Arguments about offensiveness etc. aside, there is another argument that doesn't really wash. That is the contention that it's not an accurate reflection of its subject. It's quite clear that we aren't attempting to depict the topic, but rather show how he has been depicted in tradition. The contention raised by myself and others during mediation was that the tradition of depicting Muhammad, while it indeed existed, was itself not highly prevalent in Muslim hagiographic representation or veneration. Thus, to prominently place several depictions is too overt, too flagrant, and unbalanced. It's an overstatement of a relatively minority tradition, and this is where IMO WP:UNDUE comes into play. I have no problem with two depictions (for example) in the article, one in the depictions section, and another which illustrates a significant event like Isra/Mi'raj. To me, that's a balanced representation, and while this issue was debated for months a number of us saw this as the middle way between incendiary picture-spamming and censorship, as well as being based upon sound understanding of policy. Perhaps this perspective can be revisited, and hopefully result in a more stable article in the long run? ITAQALLAH 17:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Zazaban (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But why would it? Who's turned up asking for only one image to be presented? nobody. It wouldn't solve a thing. --Fredrick day (talk) 18:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but it's still a good idea regardless of whether it would help in this catastrophe. Zazaban (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Fredrick, I think a lot of people feel offended because of how overt it is in the presentation. To be frank, it just looks like it's calculated to offend, and I can understand why many people who may be more 'moderate' would instantly feel provoked when barraged with a string of depictions (which itself is an unbalanced representation). I might also note that many of those who had strongly 'opposed' any sort of images during the mediation were indeed willing to accept images in the article so long as they weren't of the kind of overtness we see now. ITAQALLAH 18:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe Itaqallah has a valid point. I read some comments comparing the depicting of Muhammad with the depicting of Jesus, this is unfair. I believe the depicting of Jesus is a common practice in the Christian history, unlike the depicting of Muhammad in the Islamic history. So putting 3 pictures in the article is an overstatement of the practice. (Imad marie (talk) 19:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC))

It is not the purpose of the article to adhere to Islamic practice. Even if Muhammad was never depicted by Muslims - which is not the case - it would still have no bearing on the article. Wikipedia is not bound by Muslim law or tradition. TharkunColl (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you even read what he said, or did you just write a knee-jerk reply? Zazaban (talk) 19:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Nobody said it was, TharkunColl. ITAQALLAH 19:18, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

To be frank, I have to disagree. There is nothing "overt" about the number of images in the article as it stands, and removing one or two to placate special interests will not resolve the issue. Rather, it would only serve to inflame it, since "hey, we got them to back down this far, press harder and they will cave altogether!" Three depictions of Muhammad in an article of that length is adequate, if not under-represented. The goal here is not to reduce the "overtness" of the images, but to bend the will of a secular community to that of a religious belief. And that belief, as presented here, is "remove all images". Disagree strongly with that argument. Resolute 00:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd rather not focus on the cynicism in your post, I certainly have no intention to "placate special interests" in my appeal to neutrality and balance, and I fully understand what NOT#CENSORED means. If you truly believe I'm being disingenuous here, then please be forthright about it.

For the record, we are talking about four depictions, all prominently positioned in the top half of the article (even moreso before Aminz had recently diffused the redundant Overview section). Our neutrality policies refer to non-text features of an article as much as they do text features. Prominence, placement, number, general presentation. These all have an effect on the balance of an article. As a historical tradition and art form, depictions of Muhammad weren't nearly as prevalent as other forms venerative of Muhammad, calligraphy for example. There's nothing wrong in representing that tradition in this article with a few pictures. I do see something wrong when this tradition is given undue focus, is heavily over-stated through excess in both representation and prominence, and I think it misleads the reader in suggesting a greater historical prevalence than can be afforded by reality. ITAQALLAH 19:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe the overtness of the pictures has been discussed and we agreed that the images shouldn't be overt/out-of-place, nor should we include them simply for aesthetic value. Here was the thread, which I think is applicable to this idea of undue weight for nontraditional art; perhaps it will save us time from discussing the same things over. The conversation on this begins at 20:54, 14 January 2008 with me (Rosywounds). -Rosywounds (talk) 02:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree ;putting 3 pictures in the article is undue weight, and it gives the impression that it was put with the deliberate intention of offending Muslims. (Imad marie (talk) 11:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC))

It is highly unlikely that three small images were added with the intention of offending anyone. They are there for educational and historical purposes, much like almost any other image on Wikipedia. As a comparison, there are no less than eleven depictions of Jesus on his article. I would suggest that three images here is not a case of giving undue weight. Resolute 19:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It is really difficult for me to assume good faith; the depiction of Muhammad is really rare in the Eastern and Western sources as well, and it is not included in other encyclopedias, so why do some editors insist on including the 3 pictures? and in the introduction section of the article?! (Imad marie (talk) 05:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC))

Wikipedia:NEO says avoid using neologisms that have not yet caught on widely; I believe this should apply for the images too! this article has been used to published rare and unknown pictures to most of the readers, I wonder if it was done with the good intentions. (Imad marie (talk) 05:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC))

Two logical fallacies are evident in your response.

The Strawman Fallacy: the argument against non-widespread neologisms exists to protect readers from linguistic conundrums. An example would be to happen across a phrase that bears no real meaning, since you just came up with it.

The Argument from Ignorance Fallacy: you assume that these images were just put up, or otherwise seem to criticise them from a point of ignorance; the images are kept up because of their artistic and historical value, since they are medieval artistic depictions of Muhammad.

Defacing them, putting them under "curtain," and so on, is against the principles of Wikipedia, just as censorship is an acceptable fact in many countries. You should examine whether our good faith cannot simply abide by your demands. -- RaspK FOG (talk) 07:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Rosywounds, I hadn't seen your comment. ITAQALLAH 19:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem; I just thought that the points mentioned in that conversation are applicable here. -Rosywounds (talk) 20:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Resolute, I don't think that is a very fair comparison. The article on Jesus doesn't include an Ethiopian depiction of Jesus, for example. Ethiopians, after all, have had a Christian presence longer than most Europeans, and they historically depict him as East African (Black appearance). All of the art on the Jesus article caters to traditional Western views; in fact, all non-Western art on Jesus has been given its own separate article. -Rosywounds (talk) 20:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a situation that can be corrected if a suitable image can be found. The point remains, however, as the use of images depicting Muhammad have been minimalized in this article compared to that of another historical religious figure, disproving the argument of WP:UNDUE. Also, WP:NEO very obviously does not apply, as an image is not a word or term, nor would a several century old image qualify as "new". If you want to push for a change to WP:NEO, feel free to initiate that discussion on at WT:NEO and try to build consensus. That being said, if you can provide a more "mainstream" image of Muhammad, I would be happy to insert it into the article for you. Also, pleaseassume good faith on the intentions of the editors who added the image. Unless you can show that the images were added with the intention of offending you, I would have to say that their additions were made with the intention of improving the encyclopedia. Resolute 16:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Minimalised? Surely you appreciate that the historical tradition of depicting Muhammad can't seriously be compared to the tradition of depicting Jesus (whose article you cited if I remember correctly). In the case of the latter, there has always been the prevalence of multiple iconistic trends in contemporary and pre-modern times, indeed this was perhaps the main form of veneration of Jesus. I'm sure there are hundreds, if not thousands, of historical depictions from different cultures and ages. It's a completely different story when it comes to depictions of Muhammad, which, as sources confirm, were generally rare (For the most part, they were generally restricted to Safawid Persia during the 16th century). So I feel you're comparing apples with oranges.

There is, therefore, an issue with four prominently positioned depictions in the top half of the article. I really think that's an undue focus upon a minority tradition. ITAQALLAH 17:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, displaying the images near the top is an editorial decision that is pretty much standard across all Wikipedia biographical articles that have images. The traditional view of one religion - that is not even universal to that religion to begin with - isn't a consideration. Changing the placement of images has been discussed and compromised on other articles in the past, however, and certainly does merit debate here. If you wish to push the discussion in that direction, I would recommend starting a new section, as the debate would likely be lost in the middle of this string. Resolute 18:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Notice to all those who wish Wikipedia to remove pictures of Muhammad

Please place your requests for Wikipedia to remove pictures of Muhammad in this dedicated page or they may be removed. TharkunColl TharkunColl (talk) 09:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: if this is the page now in use for these particular topics, we may want to change the banner near the top which explains that no changes will be made without discussion on this page.--C.Logan (talk) 10:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

most people are never going to read it - it would actually make more sense for the rest of us to leave this page to the "please remove" crowd and do all of the real work on a sub-page. --Fredrick day (talk) 10:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, this may be the case if the reaction to the FAQ is any indication.--C.Logan (talk) 11:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I've moved this notice to the bottom where I suggest it remains, so that everyone sees it. TharkunColl (talk) 11:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Note to TharkunColl: I'd reverted your removal of the "a new suggestion" topic, because I feel that this is a topic which is mostly productive and should not be included along with the rest of the "request" posts, which are typically by anonymous or new users with little or no knowledge of Wikipedia policy. As far as I can see, this is not a "request" which would justifiably need to be moved to the new page for such posts- doing so would "drown out" the points raised by Aminz, because I can't help but feel that this new page will be one that is afforded little real attention or concern (though one can't be blamed for this attitude considering the route the discussion has taken).--C.Logan (talk) 11:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

though the images are not yet removed, but i have to thank everyone who took the time to participate in this discussion. Those who are in favor of the removal or not, I thank everyone.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.60.81.12 (talk • contribs) 06:48, February 4, 2008 (UTC) (UTC-5)

There is no "yet" my friend. Jmlk17 11:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have moved your page to Talk:Muhammad/images whic is the original title under which we did image discussions. I'm sure you realize what you were doing when you called it "censorship requests" but our goal is to make this a manageable issue that does not clog the talk page, not belittle the people making these requests. gren グレン 17:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

NOTICE about image discussion

Any new sections below this point which rehash the same issues about the images of Muhammad will be moved to Talk:Muhammad/images leaving only the header and a note about this move. Any discussion placed under that header will be summarily removed. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a political debate forum so rehashing this issue is detracting from work on the article. Serious sections by established editors will be kept upon consensus.

For an example of how this will be done please see the section below. gren グレン 22:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. --Be happy!! (talk) 22:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Image solution

Discussion of the use of images is going on at Talk:Muhammad/images. This section has been moved there and can be found at Talk:Muhammad/images#Image_solution. Any new posts to this section will be removed. gren グレン 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

A reminder

This talk page is apparently linked in many places on the Internet, due to discussion in many Islamic forums. As a result, there are many people here of sincere faith but who are not Wikipedians and do not understand our policies and the reasons for them. Please be nice to these people. And if you are a person of faith here to argue your case, please do us the courtesy of listening to the reasons for the content policies which are in place. If everybody treats everybody else with respect, even while disagreeing, we may be able to persuade some of our new friends to stay and help counter systemic bias. And if not, at least we will avert another PR disaster. Thanks, Guy (Help!) 23:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

User:DragonflySixtyseven

How come you were able to edit the page and add your comment, when the rest of us can't? TharkunColl (talk) 01:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Because I'm an administrator. DS (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • More to the point, we do have a similar disclaimer in our article on the Ba'hai prophet Baha'ullah. Let's be fair. Let's reach a compromise. We're all mature people, yes? DS (talk) 01:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But if a page is protected, by editing it you are surely breaking the rules? TharkunColl (talk) 01:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Nope, Administrators may edit fully protected pages. Such edits are typically done in an attempt at defusing a situation, which this one was, or in accordance to consensus reached via discussion on talk pages. And before you ask, consensus currently is that the images stay. Resolute 01:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The addition is certainly good. Maybe we should wikify the uncovered face part so that it becomes blue and becomes more noticeable. --Be happy!! (talk) 01:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Certainly. To what would you suggest it be linked? DS (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. What about this: Just a suggestion.

There are two artworks by Muslim artists which portray the face of Muhammad uncovered further down in this article.

Regards, --Be happy!! (talk) 01:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I also think the disclaimer is a bit wordy. I would suggest "This article contains images of artwork portraying the face of Muhammad. These images are used for historical context." I think saying "respectfully" sounds a bit like pandering, but that's just an opinion.Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 01:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe I suggested this idea before and someone told me disclaimers are not allowed on Wikipedia and should be removed if they are noticed. Perhaps they were misleading me, but that was the response I received. -Rosywounds (talk) 01:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not a disclaimer. Is it? It seems to be a simple note.--Be happy!! (talk) 01:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not particularly knowledgeable in rules over this, but here is the thread on it. This was the response I received:

...I do not know whether or not it is a violation of censorship policy, but perhaps we could include a warning of these images at the top of the page on Muhammad? -Rosywounds // We can't include a disclaimer at the top of the article - Wikipedia:No disclaimers in articles. The article is already covered by Wikipedia:Content disclaimer, which says Some articles may contain names, images, artworks or descriptions of events that some cultures restrict access to and Wikipedia contains many different images, some of which are considered objectionable or offensive by some readers. --Hut 8.5

Perhaps the responder was mistaken, also. I don't know. -Rosywounds (talk) 02:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Jmlk17 has bolded the note, so it is clear now. I appreciate addition of this note greatly. If someone gets offended by the images can know about this and avoid reading the article. Great! I have personally no more objection to this. Thank you very much. --Be happy!! (talk) 01:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

So do we now put disclaimers on all articles that contain images some might find offensive, e.g. group sex, vulva, penis? Pairadox (talk) 01:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have written about the distinction above (e.g. those who get offended by those are unlikely to visit those articles etc). We will discuss the issue if it comes up. Since it hasn't come up yet, it is unlikely to come up in the future (i.e. a huge number of people who get offended by pornography decide to visit a related article and start complaining)--Be happy!! (talk) 01:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems as if it is the best temporary solution for the time being at least... Jmlk17 02:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If you go to the article on "penis", you expect to see a picture of a penis. However, many Muslims would not expect to see a picture of Muhammad in the article about Muhammad. That's the difference. DS (talk) 02:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

They would if they came here because someone told them there were pictures of Muhammad in the article.144.118.202.163 (talk) 04:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

FYI

I am unhappy with how much of this current brouhaha has been handled, so I've made an informal complaint at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Heavy-handed admin behavior at Muhammad, if anyone's interested.—Chowbok ☠ 02:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, Talk:Muhammad/FAQ has been deleted. I have recreated it, but I suspect that it will be deleted again quite swiftly. Zazaban (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Fellow admins:

• Please: Do not edit this page while protected
• Please: Follow process when deleting pages from talk namespace

Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration

As I've recommended in the Talk: Muhammad/images, take the images dispute to Wikipedia: Arbitration and get a ruling. I'm neither for 'or' against the images being kept. I'm more concerned about this article becoming a 'Holy War' site. GoodDay (talk) 02:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The Committee wouldn't accept a content dispute that has no conduct elements for them to decide. They don't make content decisions or set policy, so they couldn't really help here at the moment. ^Avruchtalk 02:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

What's the consensus on this article concerning the images? Keep or Delete? GoodDay (talk) 02:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's keep. It's always been keep, but a large number of people who have never used wikipedia before have swarmed this page because of [www.thepetitionsite.com this] Zazaban (talk) 02:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The best course of action here may be to start an RFC somewhere on the images. Arbitration would be premature before other methods of content dispute resolution are attempted. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I doubt that will help. Most of these people have never used wikipedia before and will not know about that. Zazaban (talk) 02:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I still recommend trying ArbCom. If they reject the case, then start blocking editors who go against the consensus (if 3 blocks fail to get the message across? a lifetime ban for the editor should be invoked). GoodDay (talk) 02:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Blocks are preventative, not punitive, and there is no policy reason to block an editor for arguing for or against these images in a talk page, especially when everyone has remained civil. The article is fully protected, and likely will be indefinitely, so there is no edit war to stop either. Resolute 02:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I meant the reverters, not the arguers. Those who keep their disputes to the discussion pages are acceptable. It's those who revert against the consensus, who need reigning in. GoodDay (talk) 02:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's frustrating for innocent editors out there, who have to content with a 'locked' article. GoodDay (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a real shame too, I can see this being fully protected for more than a month, even a year. Zazaban (talk) 02:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But there are really no reverters. For most of the time the petition site has been an issue the page has been protected. I think we could use to unprotect it and see what happens for a while. Reverting removal of images every once and a while is not that big of a deal. Although, it was protected for some other reason if I'm not mistaken. gren グレン 03:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

An admin tried dropping the protection down to semi yesterday, and that lasted about six hours before it had to be fully protected again due to edit warring over the images. All in all, this article has been protected in some form for two years now. The longest it had gone without any kind of protection was about a month in 2006. Given the current popularity of Wikipedia, I would bet the six hours it lasted yesterday is the high mark... and that was with editing by anons and new users still disabled. Resolute 03:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I hadn't noticed. It only looked like three vandals in more than that many hours. That's not bad at all... at least, I don't think it's a high enough rate to justify protecting the page. I didn't see any edit warring. It's all vandalism since these are new users violating a general consensus--at least, the consensus not to just arbitrarily remove the images. I am not fully sure why it is protected... gren グレン 04:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Anytime the page is unprotected, randoms and sleeper accounts come in and continuously remove the images. Jmlk17 04:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But the sleeper accounts are finite and can be easily blocked. How many of them do you think exists? --Be happy!! (talk) 04:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to drop it down to a semi-protection. One can expect some initial "bounce" of vandalism but I'm just going to block people who start edit warring to remove the pictures without getting consensus. Filing an ArbCom case is useless, as is an RFC; the only thing I think that will work here is the good 'ole cluestick. --Haemo (talk) 04:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's worth a shot I guess... Jmlk17 04:49, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll be watching as well. At least we have plenty of eyes on it. Resolute 05:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, get ready for the tempest. Zazaban (talk) 05:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is always going to need a level of protection - that's just facing reality - most of the people removing the images are hit and run who don't hang around long enough for policy to be explained to them. The other pragamatic reality is that however much we want to cite policy for keeping those images, this is now as much about Weltanschauung as it is the rules of this place. I don't think the images can be removed without causing a massive schism in the community. sorry that's not very helpful or positive sounding. --Fredrick day (talk) 10:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

True, but honestly, the images will never be removed. All we can do is keep with the policy of allowing whomever to edit (semi-protect the article), and keep vigilant. There are numerous editors who keep an eye on the article, so any vandalism or removal or the images is quickly fixed. Jmlk17 10:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, semi-protection is the best way to go (and full protection when needed). Going the ArbCom route is alot of fuss & probably a waste of time. In agreement, semi-protection/protection is best. GoodDay (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Media Coverage

Wow, this image controversy has just gotten substantial media coverage here: New York Times - Wikipedia Islam Entry Criticized. --Hdt83 ^Chat 08:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow indeed. I'm surprised that a note was made specifically on Aminz's proposal. I also enjoy this touch, though I am uncertain of the factuality of it (although it does come from a professor of Islamic history): "The idea of imposing a ban on all depictions of people, particularly Muhammad, dates to the 20th century." This appears to contrast with what many of the anonymous users come here to claim regarding the treatment of such images throughout history.--C.Logan (talk) 10:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, but that will probably get written off as "slander" eh? :) Jmlk17 10:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey, yeah, they mentioned my proposal "The site considered but rejected a compromise that would allow visitors to choose whether to view the page with images".

It feels kind of good :-) --Be happy!! (talk) 10:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

To C.Logan; The ban dates to the 20th century due to te huge development in the media, not for any other reason, before the 20th century those pictures were something marginal and its exposure to the muslims we so limited to a few people. However we must say again that Muhammad (PBUH) himself refused to have such pictures or statues for himself, so the taboo roots back to the 6th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazem adel (talk • contribs) 11:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

well, quote their expert then: Paul M. Cobb, who teaches Islamic history at Notre Dame, said, “Islamic teaching has traditionally discouraged representation of humans, particularly Muhammad, but that doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent.” He added, “Some of the most beautiful images in Islamic art are manuscript images of Muhammad.” The idea of imposing a ban on all depictions of people, particularly Muhammad, dates to the 20th century, he said. this is pathetic. Islam has been going for 1400 years. They've had their jerks, and they've had their wise men like everyone else. This "depictions protests" nonsense is 20th century Islamism, period. All these zealots are achieving is reducing their rich heritage to an annoying or mildly amusing travesty. dab (��) 19:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I attribute most of this to globalization though. It is not impossible to create a philosophical argument against the pictures within a population that finds those images objectionable using say Joel Feinberg's "principle of offense". The same argument would not apply in other communities though. The root of the problem is in globalization as well as the fact that the English language has become the scientific language for all nations. --Be happy!! (talk) 20:09, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Notice of proposal on Jimbo's talk page

Options to hide an image

Imagine a wikipedia space page with instructions on "How to set your browser to not see images". Imagine a link to it in the toolbox on the left side of each page. Image a more noticeable template that links to it, available for pages which are routinely problematic due to images that are shocking to a minority of wikipedia editors, rather than shocking/offensive to enough to have the image only linked to. Imagine a Wikimania conference in Egypt this summer. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

this has been proposed and rejected repeatedly. It is not for us to instruct people how to configure their browser. Nobody will stop you from compiling a Help: page giving instructions on how to block certain images at browser level. Interest groups could then trade lists of images on WP they do not wish to see. But the point is that we, as WP, cannot single out some images as "problematic": we either show them because they are relevant, or we don't show them. If we started accepting responsibility of maintaining blacklists "unsuitable for $INTEREST_GROUP" we'd never hear the end of it. If this situation prompts some users to set their browser to "block all images from wikimedia.org" -- so be it, let them configure their browsers already and stop pestering Wikipedia about it. If they are too pious to view "infidel" websites, what are they doing here in the first place? That's like a puritan visiting a porn site and then placing complaints could he get special settings blocking all the indecency please. dab (��) 19:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, at least half of this proposal is already accepted - showing people how to disable image display is a reasonable solution. WilyD 20:04, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

But nobody reads those things - we know this, we know this not just from experience here but every bit of HCI research done since the 1970s! It will make not one iota of difference for the calls for removal that appear on this page. If someone wants to generate such a page, that's is entirely upto them but let's not kid ourselves that it will make any difference to the 1000s of one-timer posters/viewers of such pages. --Fredrick day (talk) 20:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I would personally be satisfied with that solution (and I think it is necessary). If someone argues further than I want the pages to be removed, he can be responded that he can find worst images on the internet and that we are clearly informing him about how to avoid this before seeing the picture(of course it shouldn't be a difficult thing to do for newcomers). It may take sometime for some to learn about this but those who insist further afterwards are not logical. And if your question is that are there illogical people around? I would say "yes". How should we deal with them? Just as we do with other illogical people in other articles. --Be happy!! (talk) 20:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Any proposal that makes sure that there are no non-consenting readers who might involuntarily or unwittingly be exposed to the images works for one side of the dispute because it places the responsibility of seeing images on themselves. On the other hand, those who argue against it say that this will become a precedent and people will request say pornography or violent pictures to be removed. A response to that was that a Muslims is more likely to visit Muhammad article than someone who gets offended by porn visiting related articles. Because the person who visits such article is already aware of the possibility of exposure to those kind of images and hence will not see something very unexpected. This line of argument has not been convincing it appears. Just trying to summarize everything from my perspective. --Be happy!! (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, measures where you can "opt-in" to seeing images are generally undesirable (and will inevitably present pratical problems). Measures where you can "opt-out" of seeing images are pretty reasonable, if anyone knows how to implement one. WilyD 20:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wily, I did not personally oppose the proposal (I myself belong to the side that asked for some kind of notice be added- Fredrick day below is among those coming from the other side). I just added the summary of past; why am I in error? --Be happy!! (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely no chance - leaving aside the work it would require, editors are here to improve the encyclopedia not spend their time trying to deal with every single group on the internet who want special privileges - it would be seen as the thin edge of the wedge and I'd be at the front of an campaign to stop this attack on the secular nature of wikipediia. --Fredrick day (talk) 20:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

look, nobody whatsoever objects to the development of a "halal Wikipedia" plugin that Islamic readers can install if they so choose. Instead of debating this here, people could just go and do it. This has nothing to do with Wikipedia policy at all, people are free to fiddle with their incoming internet traffic any way they like. You can develop a script that replaces "Muhammad" with "Muhammad (pbuh)", or "Jimbo" with "boobies" for that matter, in five minutes and just install it tacitly on your end. But no, this isn't about not seeing images, it is about making political noise. Still, if there was such a plugin, at least we could simply point further complaining users to it in a giant sign at the top of this page and move on. What is not acceptable is being pressured into adapting the standard toolbox / article space so that everybody is presented with a STOP sign and a message like "STOP! IF YOU ARE MUSLIM, DON'T LOOK!!! CLICK HERE FIRST!" as Fredrick points out, every interest group on Wikipedia would give no peace until they'll have similar templates touting their own sensitivities to the world at large in place. dab (��) 20:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

And another thing - why have we ran straight for "daddy" Jimbo? what's the point of having a community if people are going to run straight to him? Was this proposal put on the relevent boards first? --Fredrick day (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Dab, I don't care if some people look at this politically. If you can give the readers a chance to choose to see the images or not before exposing to them in whatever possible way, that would work, even through the Islamic plugin you mentioned. It doesn't matter how.

re "every interest group on Wikipedia would give no peace until they'll have similar templates touting their own sensitivities to the world at large in place.": NO. Since it is unlikely that such a thing happens because if it wanted to happen, it should have happened by now. Let's talk about the realities.--Be happy!! (talk) 20:44, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Bowing to religious pressure will cause a schism in the project that's a massive practical and organisational reason why your proposal cannot pass. If it does pass, the WP:POINT nominations will start from all corners (I can think of 15 with little effort) and will be impossible to deny because precedent will be sent. --Fredrick day (talk) 20:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

It's amazing how creative some people will get in order to inject censorship into the project. Wikipedia already comes with a Wikipedia:Content disclaimer - that's all that's needed. --Veritas (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think this is setting a precedent. Most articles on movies/books provide a header for "plot"; they don't simply jump into spoilers without warning, nor do they place these spoilers in the lead, for example. True, they don't provide overt disclaimers, but they at least allow readers to know "what's coming." Most Muslims that view this article probably wouldn't immediately assume unveiled imagery is furnished here, considering how rare it is to begin with. -Rosywounds (talk) 21:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

yes, {{spoiler}} is was sort of a prededent (I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often). As it is, I would rather get rid of {{spoiler}} (per "WP is not censored") than allow it to set such a precedent. (hey, I note we already have -- thank you Wikipedia!) seriously, Aminz, you should look into developing a "halal Wikipedia" plugin along the lines I mentioned: this isn't meant as a joke, this could be a respectable project, and would even be guaranteed to make the news. dab (��) 21:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no interest in turning this into a larger-than-Wikipedia thing nor do I care about making any news. Please assume good faith. You disagree with the proposal. That's fine. It should be also fine if someone agrees with it. Please do not try to single me out and put me in a negative light. We can agree to disagree. --Be happy!! (talk) 22:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The spoiler suggestion has actually been brought up before and rejected. --Veritas (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't talking about a built-in template for spoilers; I was referring to the fact that all Wiki articles on movies, for example, isolate the plot summary into one section under one heading. They do not provide spoilers in the lead, for example. This makes it very easy for someone to navigate on such a page while still avoiding spoilers. An article such as that is not censored, even though it provides accommodations (built in to its structure) that allow one to navigate the page easily without worry of accidentally stumbling into something that one could potentially find unhelpful/objectionable. "I would rather get rid of {{spoiler}} (per "WP is not censored") than allow it to set such a precedent." So you would have found it tolerable, so long as it doesn't impact a page on Muhammad? That sounds like bad-faith editing, particularly since you barely even edit Islam-related articles in the first place. Halal Wikipedia? That seemed pretty irrelevant (and uncivil). -Rosywounds (talk) 23:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why you think moving the pictures would help in this matter (if I understand you correctly)? Oh and the "barely ever edit islam-related" argument is a red herring, I NEVER edit them and it's irrelevent, any editor can act to protect the content of articles and can join in on ANY talkpage about matters relating to both individual pages and wider policy issues (and this certainly ties into any number of wider policy issues). --Fredrick day (talk) 23:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Please note that there is a section in this article that is named "depictions of Muhammad." I think any person, Muslim or otherwise, would be able to reasonably infer what is (or ought to be) located in that section from the title. Besides that, my comment wasn't directed at you, Fredrick day; it was directed at Dbachmann who implied that he wouldn't necessarily oppose a policy on spoiler templates so long as its application does not extend to a page on Muhammad, which sounds pretty hypocritical in my book. Certainly anyone can post, but individuals that come to this talk page to rant and cry (I am talking about Dbachmann, again) probably aren't doing much to contribute to this Islam-related article anyway; Wikipedia isn't a soapbox, and we don't need people that are wholly unconcerned with improving the article to come here to politicize the issue. -Rosywounds (talk) 23:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

has a single person come here and asked us to move the pictures to a seperate section? because I've only being patrolling this page for a couple of days and the requests all seem to be "remove" - I don't understand how this is a solution to anything? Having said that, I have no objection to trying it if other editors feel it is a worthwhile experiment. --Fredrick day (talk) 23:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The complete removal has been eliminated as a solution, but different methods ought to be taken if we don't want anonymous users to appear here everyday clogging the talk page. I think anything is worth a shot. -Rosywounds (talk) 23:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

you are twisting my statement. I am glad the spoiler template is gone. It was in place when I joined WP in 2004, and while I never liked it, I never campaigned against it. An "objectionable image warning" mechanism would be much, much worse than the spoiler template, and I will certainly object to its introduction, regardless of whether it is going to be used on Islam related articles or any other articles. dab (��) 12:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for a solution

This situation is reasonably unprecedented — realistically, we cannot expect this to abate any time soon, and keeping the article fully protected indefinitely is not a reasonable or appropriate solution. I suggest the following solution:

• Semiprotect the article indefinitely.
• Waive the three revert rule on this page with respect to restoring the consensus version of this page, with respect to the images.

This may sound controversial, but there is a previous situation in which it was settled upon as appropriate. (See the "exceptions" provision of WP:3RR with respect to the Gdansk/Danzig vote). Note that this suggestion does not define what the "consensus" version of this page is, with respect to images — consensus can change, and this suggestion takes that into account. In any case, before we move forward with this, I'd like to get some input from other posters here. What do you think? --Haemo (talk) 22:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Quite frankly, fuck the Danzig vote. Our current practices work well enough with indef semi-protection (which is necessary for far more than just image issues - take a look at the last time this page was unprotected) and although we're in a bit of a surge now, it'll pass - there's no need for alarmism. WilyD 22:42, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• I think that indef semiprotection is inevitable. But I'm not opposed to Haemo's second notion. Comparing to the practice over at Rage Against The Machine (nude image in PMRC protest section), that has been the effective practice. Revert anyone removing the images who has not concretely changed the previous consensus. Doesn't seem that controversial to me, or something that needs cementing in a "guideline" type thing. It's just common sense in the context of our standing policies on content and conflict resolution. VanTucky 00:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Indef semi-protection is already the status quo. Take a look at the logs. WilyD —Preceding comment was added at 00:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• I know it has been. I'm saying it should continue indefinitely unless events change significantly. VanTucky 02:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Err, it will unless anyone can present a plausible argument why we should change (and really, then it'd have to be indef full protection). This brew-hah-hah will blow over soon enough. WilyD 14:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with this proposal; I suggested the same thing on ANI, but some seem to think the current level of disruption is unmanageable. I don't see that at this point, though. -- tariqabjotu 03:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems sensible enough. I can think of a direct parallel: Republic of Macedonia, which I keep a close eye on. It's indefinitely semi-protected to deal with hit-and-run vandalism from anonymous editors (mostly Greeks, unfortunately) and it has to be reverted fairly often to resolve abusive edits from accounts that have been used often enough to get around the new user restrictions. It works fairly well in practice and helps to reduce the problematic editing to manageable levels. -- ChrisO (talk) 03:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

support. This seems to be a necessary proposal, considering the circumstances. Yahel Guhan 04:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

there is a stable consensus version. Yes, this article should be permanently semi-protected. It there are going to be edit-wars among established users, we might need to impose Wikipedia:Article probation as well, with admins clamping down immediately on anyone indulging in unproductive edit warring. Permanent semiprotection, and even enforced 1RR is better than prolongued full protection. dab (��) 12:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Analysis and a proposal

It seems to me that we are having problems with two distinct groups here:

1) Editors and readers who want the pictures gone, deleted, destroyed, period.

There's nothing we can do to meet this demand; the removal of the pictures isn't consistent with our goal of providing encyclopedic information, and WP:NOTCENSORED anyway. However, there's a second group we can perhaps do something about:

2) Editors and readers who do not expect to see the pictures in the article and are upset when they do.

There's a significant point here. Images of Muhammad are exceedingly rare because of the Islamic tradition of aniconism. That means that, even in Western sources, it's very unusual to see a depiction of Muhammad. Other encyclopedias - Britannica, Encarta, Chambers, Oxford etc - do not depict Muhammad. Wikipedia is thus indisputably exceptional in this regard. If you look up "Muhammad" in just about any encyclopedia that I can think of, you do not automatically expect to see a depiction of him. There's what you might call an "expectations gap" between what readers expect and what they actually find. (By contrast, if you look up Breast you'll have every expectation of seeing an image or diagram of one, just as you would in any good Western encyclopedia. Likewise, if you look at Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy it's reasonable to expect an image of the cartoons in question.)

I think we need to address this "expectations gap". We certainly shouldn't be posting a disclaimer, as Wikipedia:Content disclaimer already covers that. A spoiler template wouldn't be appropriate, as spoilers refer to plot resolutions, not images. Nor would a warning be appropriate, as that would probably also clash with our content disclaimer. However, a short, neutrally worded notification - not a warning, spoiler or disclaimer - would give readers the choice of reading on in the full understanding that they would be seeing pictures of Muhammad, or navigating away if they didn't want to see them. DragonflySixtyseven added some words to the top of the article earlier today which I think - if amended and presented in the right context - could help. I'd suggest something like the following wording:

This article includes two images which represent the uncovered face of Muhammad. The images, which are artworks created by Muslim artists, are used respectfully in an historical context to illustrate two episodes in the life of Muhammad.

Any thoughts? -- ChrisO (talk) 00:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, if we put this up at the top then readers who come upon the article won't be "shocked" to see the images. Of course, "hiding" the image seems to be the most logical solution since people can actually choose if they want to see the pictures or not. Hiding the pictures is not censorship because all you have to do is to click on the box to un-hide it. It seems strange that both ideas were immediately rejected without even testing out these methods to see if they are effective at reducing attempts by Muslims to remove images. --Hdt83 ^Chat 00:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't support hiding the images. That would in effect be a form of censorship - allowing one element of the community to impose a certain standard on everybody. My proposal above is strictly neutral in terms of how it affects other editors. We can't compromise our principles by imposing a burden of censorship on the entire community, whether it's by removing the images or hiding them. What we can do, however, is give people the informed choice of whether to read the article or not, in the knowledge that it contains the disputed images. Editors would then be under no compulsion to do anything, whether it's changing their browser settings, editing their monobook.css or clicking on a box to show the images. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

We also have a gap in what we consider reasonable as Wikipedians, and what the vast majority of people who see this page think. Asking most readers to participate in discussions is hard, especially for people who don't know how this works. My mother, a retired executive assistant with a ready eye for spelling errors and mistakes, would rather send me corrections than edit herself. Wiki is something new you have to learn. Readers, who comprise most of our audience, don't want to be directed to RFC's or RFARB's. Yes, the vast majority of complaints insist on having the images deleted...and then there's some intellectual individuals who are suggesting there is a bigger issue. The fact that most Sunni Muslims don't want to be confronted by an unexpected picture of Mohammed. Forcing them to see it on the article only inflames the situation. Versageek had an edit while protected which would go a long way toward solving this as well, but reverted herself. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad&diff=189386710&oldid=189365656). Cary Bass ^demandez 01:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit counflicted)I do go along with Versageek's proposed paragraph, or any in-paragraph, low toned notification. I do however strongly oppose any kind of out of paragraph notification, which sounds like a warning to me no matter how you may call it, and go, in my very humble opinion, against the spirit of our not-censorship and no-disclaimer policies. If it makes somebody more happy, no problem with making bold the last sentence, the one which actually tells about the images. As a side note, my middle school history book had these images too. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 01:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw Versageek's proposal, but I didn't think it was very effective. It's buried at the bottom of the lede, it doesn't stand out in any way and I'm pretty sure that the circular reference in it isn't consistent with our MOS. The point of having a notification is that it should be noticed immediately by a visitor to the article. And I'd like to emphasise that it shouldn't be considered a warning. "May contain peanuts" is a warning. "Ingredients: 100% orange juice" is a notification. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:10, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

So, would one suggest that we put notices like that on masturbation or Prince Albert piercing too? нмŵוτнτ 01:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The comparison of Muhammad to sexual or anatomical body parts is like comparing apples to oranges. When people type such things, they expect to see a picture of it. In this article, many Muslims probably have no idea that there are not one, not two, but three pictures of Muhammad. This is akin to going to the main page of Wikipedia and seeing it vandalized with porn and other unsuitable images. --Hdt83 ^Chat 01:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's the same concerning if one expects to see images or not. You made my point more clear. If one doesn't want to see images of a penis, don't search for penis-concerning articles. Exactly! If one doesn't want to see images of Muhammad, don't go to Muhammad articles. нмŵוτнτ 01:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

That analogy simply doesn't work. Everyone knows that pictures of penises exist (since 50% of the population has one, pictures aren't exactly hard to come by - if you'll excuse the inadvertent pun). So if you look at an article about penises, it's not unexpected that you'll see a picture of one. On the other hand, I suspect that a good deal of the offence in this case is due to many Muslims not being aware that pictures of Muhammad even exist. I'm pretty sure it's not covered in middle school history books in Islamic countries! The point is that readers anywhere - in the West or the East - have no expectation that this article will show depictions of Muhammad, since they have no idea that such images exist, let alone appear in the article. Our challenge is to close this gap between their expectations and the reality of the article. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think Cary Bass made a good point in distinguishing between different Muslim readers. In fact, I think some form of harsh treatment together with compromise on reasonable points is required here. Let me provide a stupid example of how things may go wrong: Just as some male Muslims prefer to increase the covering of women instead of thinking of a way to make a special type of eyeglass for men, some of them might not see their own share in the story and acknowledge that at the end, the opportunity of doing something inappropriate is always available but it is they who have to restrain themselves from it or impose restrictions on themselves. Not that this type of thinking is specific to Muslims, it shows up in various forms among all people. Admittedly, Muslims can expect that in a free society, they should be given the chance to exert their freedom but anything beyond that is not acceptable.

One last comment: one way to make a note more visible is to change its color to blue by adding a wiki-link to the depiction section in the article. Probably the blue can become more colorful if it is bolden: the depiction section. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW, I always forget to mention this. I think we should separate English Encyclopedia from other European encyclopedias. Similar measures may not be necessary to be taken in other encyclopedias. This is because of the international aspect of english: many Muslims know English because it is the scientific of the time and they have to inevitably use it; they are taught in school about it; they have to write their scientific papers in that language etc etc. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Chris O, that was a very good response. I not understand that not all of them even KNOW that an image exists. Although I still stand by my opinion that they should stay on the page, I learned something. I thought that they just didn't (or weren't supposed to) see pictures of him, not that they had no idea pictures even existed. That massive culture gap is just hard for me to fathom, I suppose. Thank you for the informative answer (and making me laugh w/ you pun, haha). нмŵוτнτ 02:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Not intending to single you out by any means, hmwith, I've seen other people using similar arguments, but just a general caution: let's please be careful comparing Muhammad to other topics with "offensive" images, as I worry the argument might be taken out of context and very much in the wrong way by someone who doesn't immediately grasp what the speaker's getting at. I see where the point's coming from after a good dozen rehashes of the old debates, certainly, but I'm not so sure about newly incoming (and in some cases already upset) readers. Not to say the argument is invalid, by any means, just to try and be aware of that when phrasing it. Other than that, I'm very happy to see some healthy discussion going on, here. – Luna Santin (talk) 13:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My point was that they're both images some users don't want to and/or don't expect to see. I've seen many complaints on talk pages of articles w/ "inappropriate images" that are a great deal like the ones here. нмŵוτнτ 16:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

• Don't you think that if Sunni Muslims do a Google search for "Muhammad" and click on a link to an English encyclopedia hosted in the United States that they might expect to find something objectionable, even a photo? They are clearly aware that Wikipedia is not subject to the laws of a Muslim nation. Pushing forward - we are a self-selected group, there is no limit to who can edit here. While some may be wary of editing because of technological unfamiliarity we don't consider the feelings of Luddites on our technology either. The prohibition against the display of images of Muhammad is a religious law. We simply do not and can not obey religious prohibitions or other rules that directly conflict with our culture and goals. If you want to obscure the images behind a collapse box - fine, collapse all the images in this article. Other articles (notably the inkblot test article) do so without issue. The only reason I can see that justifies this, however, is to stifle vandals and readers who (a) oppose what we do here and (b) are unable or unwilling to participate in a reasonable discussion. ^Avruchtalk 02:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Those who follow a laws be it secular or religous do that with the belief that it is good for them to do (good in some "sense"). You might not recognize the goodness or validity of that "sense", but then that would be simply your personal view. One can not bring that in the discussion about a community as a whole. In any case, any such personal analysis will be always based on some assumptions and assumptions could not be enforced...Karl Marx was not a fan of religion but if you take his historical materialism thesis, then you can see that the religous laws are not in essence a different origin than the accepted norms, customs, even moral standards and many of the common sense things. I hope you see where I am going. We should simply look at the problem in this form: there are some people who think for some reason seeing an image is bad for them. To say that since the reason comes from religion, it can be ignored is not the appropriate position to take.--Be happy!! (talk) 02:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point, and you are right that the distinction between 'laws' and 'religious laws' can be flimsy, particularly in a historical context. My view is that we are subject to the laws we must be subject to, and we should not voluntarily accede to any other attempts to legislate our content. The laws governing what we do are secular and determined by a free society - 'free' and 'freedom' are intrinsic to what we do. Laws based in modern religious interpretation tend to be the antithesis to 'free' and 'freedom' and while this may be a relativist view and others may believe that greater limits on freedom is good... They are not here, and as a community we emphatically do not share their belief. ^Avruchtalk 02:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It is correct that the laws should not be arbitrarily imposed and that's why I think those who ask for the outright removal of all the pictures because they are offending to them should be strongly opposed (and I would go as far as saying indefinitely banned if they persist).

My only point is that in a free society, people be given the chance to exert their freedom in matters important to them: in this case, Muslims being given the chance to exert their freedom in not seeing the images if they don't want to (that is, they stop reading the article and go for another source of information). That's all. Most of the work is left to Muslims themselves eventually. We do not change our way, we let them know what our ways are. --Be happy!! (talk) 03:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's ludicrous to impose a disclaimer on the top of the article that the article contains images of Muhammad. Anyone looking at the article can tell that. There's no need to include an article-level content disclaimer when there's already the Wikipedia:Content disclaimer. Images of pornography are often considered to be incredibly violent against women and are opposed almost universally by the feminist community, yet we don't put disclaimers there. Why? Well because the feminist community isn't trolling those articles - Adding such a disclaimer to this article is simply giving into and feeding the trolls; a path down the slippery slope of censorship. --Veritas (talk) 12:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Can I just make a sidepoint here - there is very little to no trolling from the hit and run IP editors who appear here and ask for the pictures to be removed. Just because they don't understand how we do things doesn't make them trolls, the majority (as far as I can) see are acting in good faith - so let's keep that word for people who deserve it. --Fredrick day (talk) 12:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen the giant red warnings at the top of this talk page? Making the same comments here for image removal after reading those certainly seems like trolling to me and giving absolutely no regard to consensus while disrupting the project from making constructive progress toward improving the article. --Veritas (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's a red herring - we know from HCI research that people don't read such things and we are being unrealistic if we expect IP editors who have never been here before to do so - it's nothing to do with the issue at hand, it's the reality of CMI - be it here at wikipedia or any number of talkboards - people only pick up the rules and norms from repeated interactation - no amount of big red notices will get around that reality. Those people don't understand "consensus" as we describe it, so again it's unrealistic to just mention it and expect them to "get it". It's very easy for us on the inside to forget what a confusing place wikipedia is. So no it's nothing to do with trolling, it's do with understanding. --Fredrick day (talk) 13:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Please, the warnings at the top of the talk page are quite clear and explain the situation. If someone fails to read what's right in front of their face, that's their own fault. --Veritas (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, it's not a disclaimer. It's simply a notification to inform readers that certain content exists in the article. What they do with that information is up to them. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In essence, another form of a spoiler warning which is unnecessary. Either way, it is pointless and not encyclopedic. --Veritas (talk) 13:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Being encyclopedic is certainly a worthy goal, but there does eventually come a point where standing on absolute principle only prolongs controversy and upset. I can't say where that point lies, or whether we're approaching it here, but this seems very much a fringe case to me. A large number of people are upset and will likely continue to be upset for some time; what do you propose we do about it? – Luna Santin (talk) 13:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

In this case, stand by policy and keep the article semi-protected (against both IPs and newly registered editors). --Veritas (talk) 13:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

We are in a blind here and this isn't actually about policy anymore (although we all use that language) - it's about worldview. Many of our hit and run editors will not stop until the pictures are removed - that is reality, many of our established editors will not allow the pictures to be removed because they see it as an attack on the very nature of the project (rightly or wrongly). The simple answer is that this problem is pretty much unsolvable without causing a schism in the project - without removal, the editwars will continue, remove or anything that is seen as being censorship will just cause a similar response but internally plus will create a different firestorm - that wikipedia capitulated to the religious (rightly or wrongly - that is how it will be seen by large sections of our readers/media commentators) --Fredrick day (talk) 13:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that the vandals will be persistent until they get their way, I disagree that the problem is the doomsday "Clash of Civilizations" problem you describe - there is no schism in the project. With the right level of protection we can force people to the talk page and direct them to the relevant policies. No solution is perfect, but we should seek to obtain the best solution possible without compromising policies which may or may not be where we are at now. Again, I think that protection of the article page should also disallow edits by newly registered users in addition to anon ones. --Veritas (talk) 13:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, I propose we continue to do what we have been doing. WP:RBI those that wish to edit war over removing the images, fully protect as needed, and continue to do so until people tire of this crusade and move onto the next. IMO, this very petition is defeating the argument of how a Muslim follower could come to this article and not expect to see depictions of Muhammad. They are coming here specifically because they know there are images. At this point, any upset that is caused is self-inflicted. We can't do much about that. Resolute 14:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. --Veritas (talk) 14:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

What about the Muslims who come here on their own accord? These images alienate new potential Muslim editors here, furthering the systemic bias already present in this encyclopedia. Oore (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, if they want to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia then they must abide by all of its policies just as every other editor does. Not all of us agree with all of the content on Wiki, but we understand and appreciate its right to exist. --Veritas (talk) 23:53, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is biased toward a free society, because a free society created Wikipedia. --65.40.35.52 (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Important information deleted

Why was this deleted from the Mohammed page. It is 1 of the most important paragraphs, for all Muslims and Mohammed followers. It is also in the Qu'ran I request you to put this paragraph back up as it is important. It is important for people who are strong devotees to Mohammed.

Jewish tribes of Medina

After his migration to Medina, Muhammad's attitude towards Christians and Jews changed.

During this fateful time, fraught with tension after the Hidjra [migration to Medina], when Muhammad encountered contradiction, ridicule and rejection from the Jewish scholars in Medina, he came to adopt a radically more negative view of the people of the Book who had received earlier scriptures. This attitude was already evolving in the third Meccan period as the Prophet became more aware of the antipathy between Jews and Christians and the disagreements and strife amongst members of the same religion. The Qur'an at this time states that it will "relate [correctly] to the Children of Israel most of that about which they differ" ( XXVII, 76).

Jewish opposition "may well have been for political as well as religious reasons".[108] On religious grounds, the Jews were skeptical of the possibility of a non-Jewish prophet,[109] and also had concerns about possible incompatibilities between the Qur'an and their own scriptures.[109][110] The Qur'an's response regarding the possibility of a non-Jew being a prophet was that Abraham was not a Jew. The Qur'an also stated that it was "restoring the pure monotheism of Abraham which had been corrupted in various, clearly specified, ways by Jews and Christians".[109] According to Peters, "The Jews also began secretly to connive with Muhammad's enemies in Mecca to overthrow him."[111]

After each major battle with the Meccans, Muhammad accused one of the Jewish tribes of treachery (see Surah 2:100) and attacked them. After Badr, Muhammad besieged the Banu Qaynuqa and forced their surrender. He wanted to put all the men to death, but was convinced not to do so by Abdullah ibn Ubayy, who was an old ally of the Qaynuqa.[112] Instead, he expelled them from Medina with their families and possessions. After Uhud, he did the same to the Banu Nadir. After the Battle of the Trench in 627, the Muslims accused the Jews of Banu Qurayza of conspiring with the Meccans, then inspected the captives and beheaded all male members of the Banu Qurayza that had grown pubic hair.[113] The females and children were sold as slaves. [114]

Two types of explanations are given for Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina: theological and political. The theological explanation given by some Arab historians and biographers is that:"the punishment of the Medina Jews, who were invited to convert and refused, perfectly exemplify the Quran's tales of what happened to those who rejected the prophets of old." Others offered a political explanation.[115] F.E. Peters, a western scholar of Islam, states that Muhammad's treatment of Jews of Medina was essentially political being prompted by what Muhammad read as treasonous and not some transgression of the law of God.[111] Peters adds that Muhammad was possibly emboldened by his military successes and also wanted to push his advantage. Economical motivations according to Peters also existed since the poorness of the Meccan migrants was a source of concern for Muhammad.[116] Peters argues that Muhammad's treatment of the Jews of Medina was "quite extraordinary", "matched by nothing in the Qur'an", and is "quite at odds with Muhammad's treatment of the Jews he encountered outside Medina."[111]

--99.238.7.180 (talk) 01:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The information was decided to be chronologically merged into other sections. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for reference purposes, the anon's comment refers to this edit by Aminz, on 3 February, 2008. I feel the edit summary is an explanation in itself. Green Giant (talk) 04:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Death (murder) of Muhammad

Hello Everyone,

The murder of Muhammad by Zainab Bint al-Harith is quite interesting, yet no mention is made of his murder on Wikipedia, only of his death. Also the circumstances around Muhammad's death seem avoided.

Do you think it would improve the Wikipedia reading on Muhammad to say more about his murder? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdzuber (talk • contribs) 02:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if it was Zainab Bint al-Harith. Please find a reliable source for that. --Be happy!! (talk) 02:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

an image question unlike all others!

Why do we need both images in the Seal of the prophets section? It smushes the text awkwardly. I don't know enough to know whether they are both essential. Calliopejen1 (talk) 15:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Please remove the picture of Muhammad

Wikipedia is a very useful website for gaining knowledge on almost anything. However, there are times when things posted need to be re-checked since they may be incorrect or offensive to millions around the globe.

The portrait of Muhammad shown in "15th century illustration in a copy of a manuscript by Al-Biruni" is not endorsed by Muslims and should be taken off since it is very offensive. Muslims do not depict any of their prophets in pictures, be it Muhammad, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc.

I am shocked by the fact that Wikipedia would allow this picture to be posted, since it is an inaccurate portrayal of Muhammad and offensive to Muslims around the globe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.201.248.64 (talk) 18:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's irrelevent if it is endorsed by Muslims, this is a secular site that does not apply islamic thinking to our ways of working - you can check our policies by clicking on the help tab on the left of your screen. --Fredrick day (talk) 18:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Please explain then (not you, Fredrick day, but anyone who protests) why there are no complaints regarding any and all depictions of Jesus or otherwise... -- RaspK FOG (talk) 18:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Freedom of expression is a God-given right...and an American practice that is sacred.

While some followers of Islam may be offended by these historic images of the prophet, members of others religious traditions, no less worthy of dignity and respect have had to contend with artwork, editorials, and dipictions that are often considered offensive by its' followers. Case in point, the frequent depictions of Jesus Christ in art, displayed in public arenas that can be considered offensive. Freedom of expression is part of this nations founding principles. If followers of Islam wish to inculturate, they will need to be more tolerant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.63.16.28 (talk • contribs)

The word you are looking for is "aculturate." Anyway, the point here isn't of the extremely vague notion of "god-given" rights or "American" practice. I don't know freedom of speech is uniquely American since it is a concept borrowed from Europe. Regardless, this is about Wiki policy and getting people to understand how Wiki works. --Veritas (talk) 20:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It should also be noted that "freedom of expression" is not a god given right on Wikipedia. As a private enterprise, Wikipedia actually has the right to determine what information it hosts as it sees fit. For the most part, the determination on this is left to the community, and the community has overwhelmingly decided not to practice censorship in cases such as this. Resolute 20:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Its spelt "acculturate" i think you will find. (80.42.202.6 (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC))

Protected and suggestion

I've protected this page again due to edit warring. We now need to come to a conclusion as to how we solve this dispute. It's only fair that both editors and readers are able to be involved in discussion for an amicable compromise. I am considering creating a discussion page, that can be directed to from the main Muhammad page so readers and editors are able to express their views, and we can work through the issues as a collaborative. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Isn't that what this page is? ^Avruchtalk 21:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I was going to suggest more of a community RfC and try and draw in readers. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It's premature to conclude this isn't just a temporary surge associated with the Times article and the petition spam - try giving it a bit of time to wear off. WilyD 21:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Given that 100,000 potential readers have signed a petition saything they don't want these images here, we should listen to these concerns and attempt to work through the issues with them. We are here to create an encyclopedia for our readers - we should listen to their concerns. Ryan Postlethwaite 21:35, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Unless you plan to change the policy on Wikipedia censorship, the views of 100, 100,000 or 100,000,000 would-be censors don't matter in the least. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Also see WP:CONEXCEPT - even if the discussion for this article were somehow to arrive at the consensus that Wikipedia should be censored in this one case, the broader consensus on WP:NOTCENSORED would and should prevail. --Dachannien^Talk_Contrib 22:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Bowing to mob justice is not in the interest of our readers either. The concerns have been listened to numerous times, and rejected numerous times. A silly internet petition site isn't really going to change this, I don't think. Resolute 22:08, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditto with the above two. The deletion of the images from the article to appease them is simply not an option. If we were inserting images of Muhammad all over the article just to offend people, that would be questionable, but these images (created by Muslims, no less!) are clearly serving an educational, historical purpose. The people (which, by the way, I don't believe truly amounts to 100,000 in support of deletion) signing this petition that ultimately says their cultural sensibilities ought to trump all others need to get over it -- both here and in the real world. There are a lot of things on Wikipedia that offend people, and we should not be kowtowing to this contingent any more than we submit to others. Those against the images are free to comment here, and those here seem open to the idea of a mini-notice, but the real disruption is coming from people removing the images from the article and failing to express any interest in working this out on the talk page. Raising the single-purpose meatpuppetry and lowering the anti-disruption efforts to "edit warring" is incomprehensible. . Thus, I do not understand, again, why this article keeps getting protected and many of the meatpuppets are left unblocked; we get, by far, less disruption from these editors (which can easily be blocked) than we get on Today's Featured Article (which just about always remains w/o semi-protection) -- tariqabjotu 22:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It could just as easily be 30 computer science students in Tehran. ^Avruchtalk 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This is going to be all over the muslim press in muslim countries. And is going to create a huge outrage. - Surely there is someone in wikipedia who has some sense? Has this been brought to the attention of James Whales 81.86.218.6 (talk) 22:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I would support a discussion. I also agree that we should listen to concerns that have been expressed by thoughtful people, even if those people are not necessarily "Wikipedians." Though Wikipedia does run by consensus, sometimes I think we get a bit too focused on making decisions just among the regulars here, without taking into account the opinions of the more occasional users. Where it's clear that "the outside community" has a strong feeling that is different from our internal discussions, we should do our best to listen, and consider if we can work harder to find a consensus that satisfies all parties. --Elonka 22:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, if we bend to mob rule here - where does it stop? --Fredrick day (talk) 23:00, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I hope, Elonka, you're not suggesting that "the outside community" has a strong feeling that is different from our internal discussions. Just because there isn't a 100K-signature petition for these images does not mean there aren't 100,000 people for them. In fact, I think we can all agree that there most certainly are 100,000 people (and many, many, many more) that are okay with these images. -- tariqabjotu 23:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Community

looking at blogs etc, many people are outraged about these pictures and are requesting that internet providers in the 50 or so muslim countries block wikipedia, until they remove the offensive articles. This is not in the interest of Wikipedia. Even if there are rules etc, there has to be common sense, and there should always be exceptions to the rules if it is in the interest of the greater good.81.86.218.6 (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Bowing to religious fascism isn't in the interest of Wikipedia either. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 21:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fascism is putting it a little too harshly. But, in any event, the countries (Muslim or otherwise) who do block Wikipedia due to material they deem inappropriate reflects more poorly on those countries than on Wikipedia. The fact that Wikipedia leaves (or at least attempts to leave) politics out of the project speaks volumes about how great it is. I see no reason to reward bully behavior, but instead feel we should be open to people who are able and willing to talk about how to address (as ChrisO puts is) the expectations gap. -- tariqabjotu 22:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If Wikipedia editing is supposed to work by "consensus", then how can we justify ignoring a petition of 100,000 signatures about what is (basically) an editing decision? By protecting the article and refusing to honor the consensus principle, the editors here are just being wiki-bullies and "owning the article". You cry censorship, when in the process, you are censoring the opinions of many more people than those who share your opinion to retain the images. 129.116.79.240 (talk) 22:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

We have other policies and guidelines besides Wikipedia:Consensus, and most support the inclusion of these images. (And, furthermore, I think you will find that those for including these images far outweigh those against them; the other side just simply has no desire to put much more energy into something that is a foregone conclusion.) -- tariqabjotu 22:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is determined by the will of the community's (read: Wikipedia's) editors in good standing. The opinions of those outside of the Wikipedia community carries no weight within. In addition, consensus is not based around the number of people "voting" on something, but around the strength of the arguments presented by each side. There is no policy based reason to justify the removal of the images, but numerous that support their inclusion. This is, imo, the central point of this debate. WP:IDONTLIKEIT has long been held as a very bad argument in a debate. Resolute 22:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Again agreed with comments made here - we must stand firm. --Fredrick day (talk) 23:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

So basically what you're saying is that if we got enough editors here who supported removal of the images, that would qualify as "consensus"? Thank you for providing this useful information. Stay tuned.129.116.79.240 (talk) 23:01, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If a policy actually existed that supports removal, yes. Ten editors favouring removal because they don't like it will not trump five editors citing Wikipedia's policies opposing censorship. Resolute 23:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a famous photograph by Andreas Serrano, Piss Christ, that is an artistic depiction of Jesus Christ. If this image were placed on the article about Jesus and sequentially removed by editors, over and over and over again, would you regard that as censorship by the editors of that article? Why or why not? 129.116.79.240 (talk) 23:04, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Would you then support the inclusion of the images that sparked the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy on this article? The appropriateness of an image on a specific article is also taken into consideration. Consensus, thus far, is that the images that currently depict Muhammad and Jesus in their articles serve to enhance a reader's understanding of the subject of the article. Piss Christ, and the Muhammad cartoons may or may not serve a similar purpose on the main articles, but that is something you may initiate a discussion on, if you so choose. Resolute 23:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm initiating it. The point is, there are two versions of the images in question. The editors here cry censorship when the images are replaced with veiled images... but isn't it also censorship to exclude the veiled versions? Under a strict definition of censorship, you cannot argue for preferential inclusion of one over the other, because despite the simple existence of the unveiled image, the tradition to veil it (which is a cultural decision that is NOT the same as censorship) is also an old one, and well-established -- even better established than the tradition of depicting Mohammed. Therefore: if you want to prance around here touting your horns about the sacredness of Wikipedia policy and tradition above all other things viewed as sacred, then in order to have any integrity about your hating of "censorship", you should remove all versions of this image altogether. Otherwise you are censoring, as well. Think about it. 129.116.79.240 (talk) 23:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

To those that say discussions should only be among existing members of the community, well, for the record: I am a member in good standing of the Wikipedia community, I am an administrator, and I have stated (and will continue to state) that I am uncomfortable about the use of the images of Muhammad in some contexts on Wikipedia. Which doesn't mean that I think that they should be deleted, but it does mean that I think we can come up with more thoughtful ways of how and where we use them, to ensure that we are using good judgment and not just throwing pictures around willy-nilly because they look pretty. I support WP:CENSOR, but I also support WP:UNDUE. In some places, by using the images in an excessive way, we are giving undue weight to the existence of the images. This is a violation of our policy on neutrality, and I think it is worth us engaging in a good-faith discussion about this. To be even more specific, let's talk about the image of Muhammad and the Black Stone. Yes it was painted by a Muslim, but there are lots of different kinds of Muslims. That particular image was painted by a new Muslim, who was in a culture that had only relatively recently converted to Islam (the Mongols). As such, the painting, even at the time that it was created, did not represent the view of "mainstream" Islam, it was basically created by a minority subculture. By us forcing the use of the image onto articles that are about mainstream Islam (and don't even mention anything about the subculture), I think that we are doing our readers a disservice. --Elonka 23:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

So you are demanding that all the images must represent the view of "mainstream" Islam. In effect, this amounts to imposing the internal rules of a religion on any Wikipedia article about a subject from this religion, and excluding all minority views within that religion (such as Mongols, Persians and Shiites, in this example), and any outside views. This is a far-fetched interpretation of WP:UNDUE which flatly contradicts WP:NPOV and Wikipedia's usual practices in the illustration of articles on historical figures.

Belittling the illustration from the famous Jami al-Tawarikh as one of "pictures [which are thrown] around willy-nilly because they look pretty" is in stark contrast with this scholarly assessment of the University of Edinburgh for example, which calls those miniatures "extremely important in the relationship of western and eastern schools of art". Similar arguments can be made for the other images.

(Sorry that this partly a rehash of arguments made earlier, but apparently it is inevitable that the same discussions must be repeated again and again, and on multiple pages, too.)

Regards, High on a tree (talk) 23:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is not "about mainstream Islam," Elonka, but about the individual named Muhammad. What you have in mind is Islamic view of Muhammad.128.208.76.85 (talk) 23:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Muhammad is an enormously important figure in the context of "secular" history. He founded one of the most important and influential historical empires and set down the legal code that still exists in a substantial amount of the world. Muhammad is not just an Islamic figure, he's an historical figure who's extraordinarily important to Islam, but it doesn't end there. WilyD 12:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, removing all images altogether would be censorship. Favouring one type of image over another would be bias. And, in fact, the article presents both veiled and unveiled images of Muhammad, so by your argument, both sides are being represented here, ergo, even on your definition, there is no censorship occurring. I would also point out that there has been little to no discussion at all about two versions of the same images existing, and which one to use. The arguments thus far have all been "this image offends my religious sensibilities, please remove it." Though, of the three images in this article, if you are aware of an alternate of that same image that can be freely licenced, I would love to add it in, as a side-by-side comparison of two images, one veiled and one unveiled would make for a fascinating and effective visual aid in discussion how the attitude towards depicting Muhammad has changed over time. Resolute 00:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Resolute. Further, I'd like to indicate that the term, "mainstream Islam" is actually an extremely nebulous concept. There is, in fact, no such thing as mainstream Islam. That's as absurd as saying "mainstream Christianity." --Veritas (talk) 00:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

New Wikipedia Policy

I would like to request a new Wikipedia Policy Any article that significantly contributes to tension between the west and Islam should be altered to prevent this tension we can name the policy WP:COMMONSENSE and it would trump all other policies.

Wikipedia:There is no common sense Nakon 23:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

"WP:COMMON" redirects here. For Common outcomes of deletion discussions, see WP:OUTCOMES. For Use common names, see WP:COMMONNAMES.

Wikipedia has many rules. Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause you to lose perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. If you use common sense when editing, you are unlikely to do anything wrong.

Even if a contribution violates the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something disruptive is not forbidden in a written rule doesn't mean it's a good idea (e.g., don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point). The spirit of the rules is more important than the letter.

Invoking the principle of "ignore all rules" on its own will not convince anyone that you were right, so you will need to persuade the rest of the community that your actions improved the encyclopedia. A skilled application of this concept should ideally fly under the radar, and not be noticed at all. 81.86.218.6 (talk) 00:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

you will need to persuade the rest of the community that your actions improved the encyclopedia. The current consensus is that Wikipedia is not censored, were it for minors, muslims, or Star Trek fans. -- lucasbfr ^talk 11:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I doubt that this policy would gain anything near a consensus. Wikipedia is not "the west". Lankiveil ^{(complaints | disco)} 11:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC).

Wikipedia

Discussion of the use of images is going on at Talk:Muhammad/images. This section has been moved there and can be found at Talk:Muhammad/images#Wikipedia. Any new posts to this section will be removed. gren グレン 22:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Who painted the images of Muhammed to begin with?

It seems a bit strange to me, but who painted the images of Muhammed to begin with? Was it Muslims or Non-Muslims? If it isn't proper to have an image of him then who painted the pictures?--Twiztidstr8 (talk) 01:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, at least one of the images identifies an artist, but it appears to be the case all four images used where produced by Muslims. WilyD 22:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, the lead image was made by Nakkaş Osman. WilyD 22:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

They were all produced by Muslims. While they were obviously not created to be insulting they were created in a time without vast amounts of communication so such images weren't globally accepted or known about. They are minority views. gren グレン 23:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

According to Paul M. Cobb, who teaches Islamic history at Notre Dame, some of the most beautiful Islamic artwork are manuscript images of Muhammad. Ref: [4] Soonerzbt (talk) 16:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposals for administrators

In the case of this article, when we have sleeper accounts being used to solely remove images, in the face of a blatant consensus against it, I would like to know what other administrators (and editors, although they can't implement the second template) think of:

• User:Daniel/MHI
• User:Daniel/MHII

I would never normally do this per WP:BITE. However, the following factors make me think that we should:

• These are sleeper accounts (per the semi-protection) with a single purpose
• They are edit warring against a blatantly clear consensus
• They will have been warned about the consensus before being blocked
• The constant reverts against consensus have resulted in protections, which mean that the encyclopedia suffers

I do not propose to use these on users making edits of a dissimilar nature to other articles, but your generic four-day-old two-edits-both-removing-images-from-Muhammad ones. One warning for the first removal, provided it's their first edit, and the second one is a block.

Thoughts? Daniel (talk) 04:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. However, I might suggest removing from the warning the specific time period that it takes to pass the semi-protection. -- tariqabjotu 04:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:BEANS, I guess. Good idea, done - using "allowed to mature". Daniel (talk) 04:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is - we do have new users coming here, given its advertisement on the foxnews main page. I'd like to keep it protected for 24 hours, then make it clear on the main page of the article that changes of the images won't be acceptable. Ryan Postlethwaite 05:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, sure, no need for implementation right now. More thinking for implementation after the full protection. Daniel (talk) 05:08, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Hmm? I don't follow. This page has been in the New York Times, front-paged on Digg, on Fox News, and on Little Green Footballs... but what's the problem? Users that didn't have accounts before wouldn't be able to edit the article under the semi-protection, and, judging by the level of disruption prior to your protection, we will have a manageable number of sleeper accounts left to block. Daniel's proposal does not say block every user that removes the images, but block those users who have no interest in commenting on the talk page or otherwise contributing to Wikipedia contrustively. I really don't see why these proposals keep coming up and yet people keep protecting the article; it seems like a no-brainer to me to approach the article in the way similar to that noted above. -- tariqabjotu 05:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Keeping the page protected is just going to aggravate things. I've seen at least three people cite the protection as oppression of muslims. Zazaban (talk) 05:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not the reason I think the protection is unwarranted; and, with some it seems a damned if we do, damned if we don't thing. -- tariqabjotu 05:29, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How about this: we fully unblock the article, and let all hell break lose until things simmer down. Then we re-semi it and fix everything. Zazaban (talk) 05:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that is exactly why protection is needed (at least for now). I suspect semi-protection will last a long time. Yahel Guhan 06:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It's going to always be protected in some form or another. Jmlk17 06:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that's a real shame. Couldn't we unblock it entirely for a week until all the opposing groups do their bit, and then pick up the pieces? Anythings worth a shot right now. Zazaban (talk) 07:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea to remove the semi-protection (especially) at this time. -- tariqabjotu 07:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. There's simply too much drama involving this article, especially considering its current media profile. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Sadly, if we unprotect the article, we can expect it to be heavily vandalised, and if we do not unprotect it, we can expect to be accused of intolerance. Keeping it protected is obviously undesirable, but so are the alteratives. Lankiveil ^{(complaints | disco)} 10:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC).

What's I'm saying is let the vandalism happen for a while and let it get out of people's systems. Sooner or later, somebody is going to assume they've 'won'. Zazaban (talk) 15:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Many of these accounts are genuine new editors who simply don't know the score. We need to be gentle but firm. No biting. WilyD 12:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

has someone googled around where these "new editors" may be coming from? The way these things go, there is probably no dearth of internet fora where users are being called to come over here and complain. dab (��) 15:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, in the last two days, this issue has been mentioned in both the New York Times and on FoxNews (or at least their respective websites). Additionally, canvassing is known to be going on from various sources ... so yes, some are maybe "meatpuppets" but some are drawn genuinely, and all are new and clueless. Gentleness is called for. WilyD 15:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Bahaullah connection

(originally titled "There ought be a note at the top of the page saying that there will be depictions of Muhammad in the article.")

Hello I am a Bahai and I think it's only fair that my prophet and Islam's prophet are treated similarly. Right now, the article on Bahaullah, there is a note in italics saying that a copy of the photograph can be found at the end of the article. There should be something similar here.--Goon Noot (talk) 04:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully the the note on Bahaullah will be removed, since it seems to be in violation of Wikipedia's policy on disclaimers in articles. Schrodingers Mongoose (talk) 04:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I've removed it as it is already covered in the content disclaimer. Nakon 04:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Leave that article alone. Like this article, the Bahaullah has undergone a great deal of discussion about the image, its placement, and the "disclaimer". If you think it needs to be removed, take it to that talk page. The discussions here have little to do with what is/should be going on there; we're just talking about the Muhammad article. -- tariqabjotu 05:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

for the record, I am absolutely opposed to the present "Bahá'u'lláh solution". Precisely because it sets a terrible precedent. The image placement may be arguable, but the disclaimer is problematic. dab (��) 10:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the early discussion about Muhammad paintings discussed that. The biggest difference is that the Bahaullah image is 100% doubtlessly relevant since it's a photograph whereas the Muhammad images aren't. But as the days go by I think we are generally being arbitrary on this decision. gren グレン 12:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The way to proceed: Principles and not Practical Solutions

I think before coming to a consensus regarding the practical solutions, we have to come to a consensus regarding the underlying principles.

I have tried to list some of the principles that had been brought up by different users so far. If I am missing something please let me know:

Principles:

1. No Censorship

2. Non-consenting readers should not unexpectedly, involuntarily or unwittingly be exposed to the images when visiting Muhammad (If you search Muhammad on google, wikipedia comes up at the very top).

3. There should be some harmony between the type, nature and number of images of Muhammad in the article and the type, nature and number of images of Muhammad in Muslim history.

Please discuss which principles you do not agree with and why. Here we are trying to see each principle in its own terms and not in relation to practical limitations or other principles. BTW, if you do agree with some of these, please indicate that so that we can know when consensus is formed. --Be happy!! (talk) 07:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion:

Only the first is a principle, the other two relate to operations. The second is unenforcable unless you plan to remove every image on the site - because althought we keep saying that people who visit the article Penis or autofellatio should expect to see pictures, we have no way of proving the validity of such a statement, it could be a sizable percentage only expect to see a description of either and we would then fall foul of your "unexpectedly, involuntarily or unwittingly" on pretty much every page we have. The third is so wooly and contextual bound that it's essentionally meaningless. In addition, it can only be put in place if we give undue weight to one perception of islamic history - and the point is, this is not an article about Islam or muslims, it's an article about a historical figure who has significant overlap with those two things - so we are would be giving undue weight if we gave one groups view of how a historical view should be viewed too much perference. We write articles about those things but we are trying to scholars of islam not islamic scholars. --Fredrick day (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If you search for penis, you expect to see one. But if you are Muslim and search for Muhammad, you don't expect see one. See ChrisO's "Analysis and a proposal" above. For the third, see Gren's and other's comment above.--Be happy!! (talk) 09:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No that's your claim, you have no way of proving that a significant proportation of readers only expect to see a textual description and maybe a medical diagram not a photo - I don't have a photo of a penis in any of my paper encyclopedias (which is an arguement used to remove the picture of muhammad here - that paper encyclopedias never displayed them). The archiving of the talkpage for penis is full of people expecting the photos of penises to be removed, the help desk regularly gets people shocked that a picture of a cock is displayed and will someone not think of the children.. so no I don't think "people expect" can stand without very strong supporting evidence. --Fredrick day (talk) 09:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with your claim on the third point. Throughout all of history images of Muhammad are rare--not just Islamic history. And to say this is an article about Muhammad, not Islam or Islamic history is... well, you can't separate the two. Muhammad was created out of Islamic history. Most of what we know about him was written down over a hundred years later. It's clear that Muhammad has changed with Islamic history not only in fact but in perception. To try to separate Muhammad from Islamic history and just give "fact about the man" would be like writing a children's book not an academic encyclopedia. In the end I'd rather have one traditional Persian image and the image of Muhammad from Dante's Inferno in a section about demonization in early Europe than what we have now. I think. gren グレン 11:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Additional Principle 4 . Common sense. If the pictures bring no real value or little value, but it offends 1/5 of the population it should be removed. To gauge wether the pictures bring value we should reflect on the fact that Mohammed is the most written about person in the history of mankind, and yet no one else deemed illustrations as necessary to describe him , other than the 3 or 4 examples shown. This falls under WP:Common —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.19.98 (talk) 12:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If the pictures bring no real value or little value, but it offends 1/5 of the population it should be removed. -- your insistance at removal goes back to the core arguement here. We are trying to come to an equitable solution, but your lack of willingness to compromise is counterproductive. --Mhking (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

First of all, the very existence of these depictions is of huge historical and artistic importance; for one thing, it shows that some Muslims, despite what has been put down, actually did make a number of images that depicted Muhammad. Trying to argue against that point is, at least, moot; also note that they also are quite important, as they are comparative sources for the medieval religious artistry of said people, and also show how these people thought of Muhammad.

The supposedly offended fifth of the world's population is both an unverifiable number (for one thing, I doubt that even half the Muslims in the world have ever had or will ever have the chance to look up Muhammad on Wikipedia, keeping economic stati in mind) and assumes that all Muslims are automatically offended; it also says nothing of the rest of the world who would most probably find the idea of being unallowed to view these images based on a petition (which is hardly a conductive way to proceed with such matters) which has supposedly been signed by a hundred thousand people (most of which signs are not signed at all!) quite repulsive and contrary to any principle of freedom and abjuration of censorship.

Finally, please keep in mind the key policies and guidelines of wikipedia; as willing as editors may be to your requests, we simply cannot deface or delete the above images — it's against not just rules, but even principles. — RaspK FOG (talk) 13:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Mohammed is the most widely written about person in history. Yet in order to describe Mohammed only a handful of people out of the millions and millions who have written authoritively about Mohammed have created illustrations. What this means is that it is perfectly clear an authoritive biography of mohammed without illustrations is not only possible but preferable. Granted the illustrations have historical significance, perhaps there should be an article about the illustrations and the pictures put on there. In terms of wikipedia policy please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Use_common_sense 78.86.19.98 (talk) 14:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

which is em.. not policy. --Fredrick day (talk) 15:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"If you search for penis, you expect to see one. But if you are Muslim and search for Muhammad, you don't expect see one." I disagree. If you are a Muslim and you visit a Muslim website, then, yes, I agree, you would not expect to see such images. If you are a Muslim and you visit a secular website, then you need to be prepared to accept that images may be displayed. Personally, I find it rather difficult to believe that Muslims are ignorant about the internet, so I choose to discredit this argument. Not to mention that as a result of this petition, there is virtually zero chance that any Muslim readers venturing into this article is not already aware of the existence of the pictures. Resolute 15:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

what information about Mohammed's biography do you derive from an illustration painted hundreds of years after Mohammed's death? That someone depicted his as tall, short, broad, etc? The physical characteristics of Mohammed are well depicted in the historical literature. 78.86.19.98 (talk) 16:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Operational activities

Ok a quick suggestion - it's sucking up a lot of time repeating the same answers over and over again - can we not generate a page of stock replies that we can cut and past to answer the most comment questions? Like the PRATTS that have been used with creationists for many years? --Fredrick day (talk) 09:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

you mean Talk:Muhammad/FAQ? I'm not sure how we should handle repetitive requests to compile a FAQ, since it appears pointless to state in the FAQ page that we already have a FAQ page. --dab (��) 10:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No - because nobody reads FAQ - I mean a stock source of replies that we as editors can drawn up upon to cut and paste in response to the same questions and points over and over again - we can then try and ensure a consistent approach to our replies and make sure that replies are a) polite b) informative and c) push those people who want to know more towards the correct policies pages. It's a tool for us not a tool for people coming here --Fredrick day (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How about User:Frederick day/Muhammad. Then you can use whatever content you have on that page by doing {{subst:User:Frederick day/Muhammad}}. Lots of people do that for welcome templates, etc. gren グレン 11:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

that's not a bad idea. --Fredrick day (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Prediction

Discussion of the use of images is going on at Talk:Muhammad/images. This section has been moved there and can be found at Talk:Muhammad/images#Prediction. Any new posts to this section will be removed. gren グレン 12:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Protection reduced down to semi

I've reduced the protection down to semi. It's inevitable that we are going to get an influx (as we already have done) of IP's given the recent news stories about this article and leaving it completely unprotected will decrease the decorum. If images are removed, the best thing to do is simply revert for now - consensus at the minute is that the images should be included per WP:CENSOR and I believe we can make an exception to WP:3RR in this particular instance, so don't be worried about getting blocked. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion

I propose we put the images in collapsable boxes, which are automatically set to hide, and if users wish to see the images, they simply press show and they appear instantly. This would mean users who wish to read the article are not automatically obliged to see the images, removing the offence taken by muslims whilst also allowing those who wish to view the images being able to do so. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

While I personally have no strong feelings about this technical change (my personal opinion is that I'd prefer a disclaimer, but that would start the spoiler war all over again), I think this is a change that should be brought to wider community consensus before implementing it: if we do it here, I see no reason for not doing the same on other articles with "shocking" images (Penis comes first in mind, but I'm pretty sure people will find dozens of articles). -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Ryan, well, someone suggested this earlier (someone in the massive archives of this page)... and people turned it down for this reason: the precedent it sets. People get upset about images in lots of articles. Should we do this to those? I'm all for consistency throughout Wikipedia, so if you do it to this article, we should do it to all of them. And I wouldn't be a fan of that.

Lucas, doing that to the images on all of those articles would be a very bad idea. Where does it stop? Which ones are "bad" and which are "okay"? It's all objective, so it would be impossible to tell. This is an encyclopedia, and it is not censored. We'd have to completely change our policies if we did that. нмŵוτнτ 17:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree this would be a tremendous precedent and would spread on a lot of articles, that's why I'm saying this would need a wide community input first. My guts agree with you (some Star Trek fans will add the collapsible spoiler tags back in no time), but I'm starting to think that perhaps some middle ground should be brought into consideration in the "extreme" cases. In all honesty my educations makes me unable to understand the fuss around these pictures and I'd prefer no removal/hiding at all, but well... -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Very strong opposition to this suggestion. Wikipedia is not censored, and forcing the box hidden would be to censor it. Opens the door to an almost infinite slippery slope, as already noted. Resolute 17:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I don't feel we should make any change to the status quo until the near-constant disruption to the article we have had over the past few days passes -- for good. In addition to not wanting to set a precedent regarding censorship (for lack of a better word here), I also do not want to set another precedent that if you whine and complain and disrupt Wikipedia without any interest in discussion, you will eventually get your way. Decent discussion regarding these images preceded the petition onslaught and decent discussion should be the only thing that leads to a change. -- tariqabjotu 17:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there a technically solution that'd default images to "show", but allow a "hide" button to be click'd before any images were visible without scrolling? WilyD 18:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely no, see Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 August 26#Template:Linkimage. Prolog (talk) 18:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The Penis example is totally bogus (all incivility removed)

All the references here to the penis article, trying to use that as an example to justify inclusion of potentially "shocking" or objectionable images on Wikipedia for "educational and informative reasons", without regard to what readers might expect, are bogus. If the penis article had education and information as its top priority, then why are there SIX pictures of HUMAN penises (one pierced!) on that page, and ZERO pictures of penises from any of the millions of other animal species that have penises? And except for the schematic diagram, all the penis pictures are of WHITE men!

If we use our brains, we can learn something from this example. Many Wikipedia articles (perhaps even this one on Muhammad) do not reflect objective, informative, or useful reality. Their appearance results from the whims of the editors, or editors' personal desires to publish whatever they want to without "censorship", instead of asking the real question: is the article doing the subject justice. The title of the penis article is not "white human penis". In my assessment, there is one reason, and one reason alone that those six images of white human penises appear, like it or not: the white human editors know full well that images of flaccid, erect, and pierced human penises shock, titillate, make you go "hmmmm", and help the editors who post them in the first place feel justified about their decisions to include whatever content they want while hiding under the bogus principles of "non-censorship" and "accuracy and informativeness". If those are genuine principles that should govern Wikipedia, rather than smokescreens that editors use to mask something that more closely resembles a culture-war, then there ought to be images of penises from other organisms on that page. Not SIX pictures of WHITE human cocks.72.48.250.225 (talk) 17:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

After examining the cocks closely, I can conclude that most do indeed, seem to belong to people who are white. I will see if we can get a couple of pictures replaced with some black cocks instead, so that there is balance. --Fredrick day (talk) 17:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

That's only half of the point. Get some pictures of insect, fish, lizard, and anteater penises on there, and you might begin to convince me that the article is not merely a venue for human cock-shots. Then, when you're done with that, come back here and pick-up the discussion of who's censoring whom over here.72.48.250.225 (talk) 17:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So fix it :) (I personally can't take any non-white picture at the moment, but I won't forget to ask) -- lucasbfr ^talk 17:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't care about the penis article one bit. I'm just questioning everyone's attempt to cite that as an example that justifies what's going on over here with the Muhammed images.72.48.250.225 (talk) 17:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So what do you want, a more varied selection of Muhammad pictures? I don't really see how that is relevant to an argument to remove the images on this page, its a (very valid) criticism of the Penis article which should go on that articles page.--172.142.59.101 (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

All I want -- all anyone wants -- is for you to open your mind to this reality: a lot of the editing that goes on at Wikipedia has nothing to do with information or objectivity, and has everything to do with culturally biased editors doing whatever they feel like doing, regardless of whether it does the article justice. 72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I have asked that some donkey or horse cock pictures are used on the page to counter any perceived bias. Also I'll see if a boyfriend of mine will allow me to take a picture of his cock and I'll upload it later. See, this is how wikipedia works - people ask and we try to help out. --Fredrick day (talk) 17:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, my point is not what images are or aren't included in that article. My point is that it often seems that editors don't really care about doing the subject justice, but instead try to wave the flag of "non-censorship" to do whatever the hell they want to do, often within a context of fanning-flames or deliberately angering people. I feel that this is exactly what's happening over here with the refusal to make intelligent decisions about the use of Muhammed images.72.48.250.225 (talk) 17:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So, what actionable request are you making here? Resolute 17:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think everyone knows what the request is. The VASTLY OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of images of Muhammed have the face veiled. The VASTLY OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the historical tradition of depicting Muhammed has the face veiled. More than 100,000 human beings have signed a petition asking for those traditions that have been established for centuries, to be continued here. And yet apparently, none of those facts seem to sway this article's editors' definition of "consensus" or "objectivity". Instead, those ideas are dismissed as irrelevant -- sometimes rudely dismissed, while referring people to the penis article as "proof" that what's going on over here is justified. I am challenging the editors of this article on those decisions, and I am asking them for the sake of intellectual integrity to consider whether they may be trying to mask a culture-war as some kind of noble exercise in non-censorship. It is likely that it is THE EDITORS HERE who are the censors of centuries of facts and tradition.72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

So does that mean that you want the images removed, the opinions of the editors be damned? Am I understanding you correctly? --Mhking (talk) 18:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be *excruciatingly* reasonable and productive, if, at-long-and-painful-last, we were to place functional links to the images of Muhammed's unveiled face on the article for interested persons, instead of simply posting them in the main article for all to see. That action would not represent censorship. It would represent intelligence. 72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The petition is irrelevant, so does not factor in this discussion. Images that depict Muhammad with his face uncovered do exist, so as a matter of historical context should remain. I am not opposed to adding more images with his face veiled or blurred, provided you can provide them, if that will satisfy your request for balance. Hiding the images is contrary to policy. The policy is that Wikipedia contains things you may find objectionable. It does not say that Wikipedia will obscure or hide that which you find objectionable. Resolute 18:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The petition is NOT irrelevant, and neither is this: the fact that my post on this page yesterday explaining to readers in the general world that they can contribute to the article if they become active editors – was moved to another page. That's censorship, and it’s hard to deny that. Sneakily disguised as content management, but censorship nonetheless. How is yanking that post and putting it a click away different from requesting that the same be done with the images in question? Hypocrites.72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

And quite frankly, I think your suggestion of linking to as opposed to posting the pictures is a load of used food. I don't see the same sort of firestorm on other websites, nor in other secular venues. I think that you and others like you are more concerned with forcing your world view onto everyone else. I keep hearing tell of 1.6 billion Muslims (despite the fact that the numbers who are insistant on removal of the images represent a subset of that larger number) who are upset with this; this ignores the remaining 4.5 billion people on the planet. But all that is non-germane to the conversation at hand. The bottom line is that any form of capitulation in the form of special treatment (i.e., other than that afforded to other religious articles on Wikipedia) would be, as far as I can see, bowing to the cultural blackmail being pushed forth on Wikipedia. --Mhking (talk) 18:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Me and others like me"? Are you insinuating that I'm a muslim, and then continuing to insinuate that Muslims are forcing their world view on others? Here's a newsflash: I'm female, an atheist, white, American-born-and-bred, living in the Deep South U.S.A., and I've got a head on my shoulders. The issue isn't about cultural blackmail, it's about being a responsible citizen of the world in the 21st century.72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I would have to agree with everything you have said so far 72.48.250.225 (talk) and the replies from editors here beggars belief, and the repeated use of "cock" shows the mentality of some editors on wikipedia, do they think that they are going to shock or what??? And I can feel a racist undercurrent appearing in the latest replies. BigDunc (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Good lord. (80.42.202.6 (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC))

Archiving of this talk page

Given it is nearing 200kb, it might be time to archive some of the dead topics. Question is, should we just do this manually with topics that are resolved, or perhaps get a bot operator to automatically archive sections that haven't been edited after a certain period of time? Resolute 18:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Overkill

First of all, I didn't post this on the /images sub-page because I'm not sure whether most of us check it... and because I would like broader feedback.

Secondly, it is extremely difficult to suggest any changes with regards to the images issue given the current media attention and off-wiki petitions, especially as it's important to not give the impression that we are "ceding to demands" or "bowing to pressure" (see: bad precedent).

I believe much of the discussion here has been about whether or not to keep the depictions. What I think isn't being given due attention is how we're presenting the images, and I think this is contributing to the uproar, although it's not easy to say how much so.

Here are some facts about the tradition of depicting Muhammad:

• It existed.
• From a historical perspective, it was generally speaking non-existent in non-Muslim cultures/regions.
• From a historical perspective, it was not a prevalent tradition in Muslim veneration of Muhammad. It would be fair to say that it was generally a minority tradition ("extremely rare in Islamic art", say Bloom and Blair).

The above is not related to what the prominent view in juristic circles was regarding such depictions, whether they were prohibited or not. In either case, it seems that depicting him was avoided for whatever reason, a lot of the artistic veneration of Muhammad appears to be through alternative techniques such as calligraphy.

Here are some facts about the article as it stands:

• We have four depictions of Muhammad in the article.
• They are all prominently positioned, within what can be called the "top half" of the article (top third, even?). I also see them as being in relatively close proximity to each-other (but that's just me).

I see a disparity here in that we are over-representing, and over-emphasising this minority (do not read as "insignificant") tradition by granting it undue prominence and focus, when weighed against the article as a whole. This is what I think is contributing to the impression that the page is deliberately trying to offend sensibilities as opposed to providing dry, clinical encyclopedic coverage (I clarified on this a bit more above [5][6]).

I have proposed here and elsewhere that two sensibly placed depictions (one in the depictions section... which, ironically, doesn't currently have one; and one elsewhere in the article depicting a major event, such as the Isra/Mi'raj) is a bit more balanced and looks less like we are barraging our readers with a series of depictions once they click on the article. This is fully consistent, in my view, with Wikipedia policies WP:UNDUE and WP:NOT#CENSORED. ITAQALLAH 18:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

How about this idea -- which is so rational, it would be very hard to argue against it. Create a new article called "Depictions of Muhammed" or something like that. Put everything you want in there, including these images, and even the cartoons from Denmark. But remove all such images from this article, which is about Muhammed, and not about depictions of Muhammed.72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Depictions of Muhammad.

The article already exists (at Depictions of Muhammad); but despite that, it is a separate point from retaining the images in this article. Nice try, though. --Mhking (talk) 18:50, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean "nice try"? That article exists (which I didn't know) -- and I think it's a great idea. So why be redundant and put the images here too?72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Because depictions of Muhammad are relevant in an article about Muhammad. Just as they are also relevant to the Depictions of Muhammad article. Resolute 19:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

and that article complete blows out of the water the "it's shocking because they don't know"/informed consent argument. It's called DEPICITIONS and they are still trying to delete the images, so the idea that spoilers, disclaimers, placement will solve the problem is nonsense. Even it it's clear from the name what is to be found - the tactic is still to try and censor. --Fredrick day (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

(to 72.48.250.225) First, there is already an article similar to one you talk about. Surprisingly, it's called Depictions of Muhammad. Second, the article is not meant as a dumping ground for all images of Muhammad.

(to Itaqallah) One thing I find quite fascinating is that after all these fiascos about the way Muhammad is portrayed -- the cartoon tiff, the response after the Pope's comments, the thing about the teddy bear recently, and now this (not saying Wikipedia is that important, by the way) -- those who cause so much drama over these depictions still haven't realized that they do not help their cause and only serve to make the rest of the world think Muslims are uncivilized. That effect on the rest of the world essentially discourages people from having a decent conversation with the offended, because they, judging by some of their actions, just seem unreasonable and impossible to work with.

We are, no doubt, having a similar effect here. The fact that Muslims are, once again, creating a firestorm over something most find to be not a big deal is turning people off to the idea of compromising where otherwise they would have been willing to do so. So, I think we should really table making any change to this article until the firestorm calms down, not only because we don't want to suggest the bully tactics work, but also because we need people to once again be willing (hopefully) to talk about these images in a rational manner. However, for the record, I must say that the number of unveiled images (two) and their placements are just fine and relevant. -- tariqabjotu 19:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I have to say that I am remarkably impressed with many of the people entering this thread to protest the inclusion of the images. While they are persistent in their demands, they have remained, for the most part, highly civil and polite. Resolute 19:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Err, today may not be the day for intelligent discussion on their placements. For what it's worth, once can find a nontrivial amount of depictions of Muhammad in "western" art of various types. Beyond that, I would suggest both the "face veiled" tradition and the "face unveiled" tradition are worth demonstrating. The Kaaba one, as the oldest surviving depiction has significant merit, I would suggest. The Nakkas Osman image is of higher quality and better pedigree than the other face veiled image (which quite frankly, I don't much care for). But today may not be the day for this discussion. WilyD 18:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I know, I know. I was in two minds about whether this was the right time. I felt it needed mention though because in my mind at least it seems to be how we are going about presenting these images rather than whether we are at all (despite the simplistic demands): the levels of vandalism at Depictions of Muhammad have been much lower comparatively, as far as I can tell. ITAQALLAH 19:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

put up a petition about it with a direct link to the page and then circulate emails about it - then see how they compare. --Fredrick day (talk) 19:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that Itaqallah and it has been generally my position from the beginning. I wonder what some of the off site visitors will think when they realize while there is room for discussion on this article there is no room for discussion on the removal at Muhammad cartoons or on the depictions page. gren グレン 20:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Relocating images

I can agree with the point that spacing the images out may help "balance" the article. Specifically, the lack of a depiction of Muhammad near the section of the same name is surprising. The image of Muhammad preaching the Koran seems appropriate, so perhaps Image:Mohammed kaaba 1315.jpg, currently the second image of Muhammad in the article should be lowered to the section on depictions, and one of the images of arabic script on buildings near that section moved up to replace? Would effectively leave an image near (but not at) the top, one towards the middle, and one towards the end. Resolute 19:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Penis thread was censored by deletion. I've put it back.

It wasn't an "insultfest" -- the points are valid. It's also censorship to move it to the images talk page. Leave it right where it is, WilyD. Editors here: watch out. Your actions are not going unnoticed. Where do you get off simply deleting an entire discussion because you view it as an insultfest? It was nothing of the like. 72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Roughly speaking, when everyone violates rules on civility, it's often easier to simply remove the offending material rather than block everyone involved. Insults, baiting, trolling are not tolerated. WilyD 18:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Wonderful. Now, if you go back over all the posts on this page, I think you will find that all cases where those things have occurred, have not been subject to massive, blanket removal like you did. Please do not cite Wikipedia policies to the convenience of your own agendas.72.48.250.225 (talk) 18:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Huge amounts of trolling, baiting, personal attacks and insults are being purged from this talkpage. It's a simple price of doing business. That unacceptable behaviour sometimes slips by doesn't mean it's acceptable. WilyD 19:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WilyD: I am reporting your 3-times censorship of that thread and argument. While there may have been inappropriate and insulting content (non-unique to this page), it does not justify blanket removal of the entire thread, which contained many valid points and a productive discussion, not to mention a documentation of a previous censorship act.72.48.250.225 (talk) 19:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:AN - go wild. WilyD 19:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

All incivility has been removed. You cannot justify censoring this again.72.179.59.200 (talk) 19:21, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I cant see any reason why it was removed in the first place. BigDunc (talk) 19:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it consisted of only baiting, personal attacks and the like without any constructive attempts to improve the article. It served only to poison the atmosphere here. WilyD 19:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it was removed for precisely the reasons that the thread itself mentions – bully editors who censor others at will, while curiously championing the cause of non-censorship.70.112.75.86 (talk) 19:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I cant see any personal attacks and any baiting was done by editors who replied to IP 70.112.75.86 still I dont feel it is a just reason to delete the thread. BigDunc (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to strongarm or bully any editors who advocate for non-censorship and consistantly degrade the quality of dialogue here. No baiting, no trolling, no personal attacks, no off-topic arguments. WilyD 19:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

The argument was hardly off-topic. Also: by definition a "personal" attack is directed towards a person. The original version of that thread made more general comments about certain editorial styles, comments that were directed to more general readers. Be more discerning, WilyD.70.112.75.86 (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It was not off topic and I dont like your threats of blocking me. Again where are the personal attacks, baiting, trolling that you keep bringing up. BigDunc (talk) 19:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

BigDunc: he threatened to block the original poster of the thread too, if s/he continued to insist that those contributions not be censored. It's a good thing this is being documented.70.112.75.86 (talk) 19:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

WilyD please read talk page guidlines before you attempt to remove this topic of discussion. --Domer48 (talk) 19:56, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the talk page guidelines. Look, the short of it is, this talk page has an extremely problematic atmosphere that's escalating the relevant innately heated issues. Baiting, intential or not, is not acceptable. Escalating conflicts is not acceptable. Personal attacks are not acceptable. Rants are not acceptable. Civility means more than using polite language when calling your fellow editors racists, liars and the like - it means you don't do that. We're not here to make broad, negative accusations against any group of people, and it won't be tolerated. Discuss the article on its merits - if you want to do something else, google can find you an appropriate place to do it. WilyD 20:02, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, this section of WP:TPG justifies WilyD's removal of the topic in question. This, of course, doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to remain civil when dealing with the removal of comments; proper justification for the removal should be provided, and any relevant warnings should be placed on the talk page of the user in question (generally). I personally think WilyD may be a bit too aggressive in his actions here, but his position and the act itself would appear to be appropriate.--C.Logan (talk) 20:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

We should be certain that all parties are aware of the reasons surrounding the removal of comments. First of all, though the "incivility" has been removed, the topic is only of peripheral relevance to the subject at hand (that is, the Muhammad article). Everyone is encouraged to remain on topic, and we are consistently reminded that this is not a forum in which individuals should rant about the article subject in general- or, even worse, unrelated article subjects.

The "penis" topic attempts to justify its existence by acting as a response to the usage of the penis article as an example which illustrates that users should not complain about the possible offense caused by images on the articles of subjects where it would seem quite obvious that images would be included. The gist of it is that if you are offended by images of penises, don't frequent the article. This topic, however, rides this wave out and almost immediately changes focus to a rant that pertains almost exclusively to the penis article (and at that, it is all little more than a massive violation of WP:AGF in its poor presumptions about editor habits and motivations).

While I have no objection to the criticisms raised concerning the representation of images in the penis article itself, the placement and underlying tone of this comment (and, even after the "removal of incivility", is still one massive personal attack) make it indefensible as an element of this talk page; as such, I support the removal of this comment from this talk page, although I remind the editor that she is free to bring up these concerns on the penis talk page (though certainly while assuming good faith and using a more constructive tone). Please keep in mind that this reply has thus far only been in reference to the initial post of the topic in question, although some of the responses which I have made can be applied to other posts in the topic as well.--C.Logan (talk) 20:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It is absolutely not of "peripheral" relevance! Read it again. It contains centrally relevant points about what content is included in an article, and whether it reflects objectivity or editor bias and agenda.70.112.75.86 (talk) 20:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It is a lengthy rant concerning the possible mis-steps made by editors on the penis article. The supposed relevance you tout is based entirely upon a blanket picture of Wikipedia editors, as if the state of the penis article is relevant in any manner whatsoever to the behavior of editors here. I will remind you again that this in and of itself is a WP:AGF violation. I don't oppose bringing this topic up per se, but please keep in mind that basing such an analysis on the presumption that editors are deliberately trying to incite feelings amongst particular groups of individuals (Muslims, here), and specifically while using an entirely unrelated article as an example, is not the proper way to do it.--C.Logan (talk) 20:58, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I am restoring the thread, because I think it makes a very valid point. The point is not the quality of the penis article or the images therein; thus, its inclusion to that talk page would not serve the intended purpose. The point is that the penis article provides a good metaphor for what's going on over here, especially since so many of the editors here cite it as a good example of non-censorship. The argument is that the penis article (and this one) contains certain images as a result of what could be viewed as an insistent bias towards a deliberately shocking or conflict-fueling trend -- instead of having images placed under the guidance of what is representative and what does the topic justice. I am restoring that thread because all incivility has been removed, and because it is very relevant to the debate over here at this article. Continued attempts to remove it are not justified, and will only escalate the problem further.70.112.75.86 (talk) 20:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Again, you need to assume good faith in the matter. Whatever the issue is concerning the images presented on the penis article has no bearing on the practices and attitudes of editors who work on this article- Wikipedia has thousands upon thousands of editors; some are good and productive, and others are POV-pushing, ignorant of policy, etc.

It's unwise to attempt to paint editors in such a manner: not only is such an analysis nothing more than conjecture, but it is a terrible violation of WP:AGF which ignores the sheer diversity of editors involved in this article alone (and it also makes an unsupported connection between the editors of penis and the editors who act here).

I still cannot see how this topic has a rightful place here; the only justification provided is, again, a violation of WP:AGF. In addition, WilyD's removal is certainly defensible: I've provided links above to the relevant section of the talk page guidelines which would appear to support his edits. I'll leave this to your own discernment, of course.

Be aware that the problem only escalates when one is unaware of policies and guidelines and becomes difficult to deal with (either because they misunderstand, or because things weren't clearly explained to them, which I believe is more the case here). Your comment does nothing towards working to improve the article, and is based entirely upon an unprovable assumption which caricatures the editors here and likens them to shock jocks.

Reading this concerns me, because there have been years of discussion on this topic which have, again and again, made it clear that the inclusion of these pictures is not due to the wicked satisfaction the editors get from inciting unrest among particular Muslim readers, but because of the historical and encyclopedic value of these images and because of their relevance to the subject. Analyzing the topic from an elementary point of view makes it clear enough: an article on a particular subject should contain images which offer depictions of that subject. Peripheral issues such as placement and the problem of undue weight of representation are currently under discussion (and have been for quite some time with no easy solution).--C.Logan (talk) 20:46, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Read WP:AAGF C.Logan, at least you are trying to explain the reasoning behind the actions of WilyD instead of throwing unsubstantiated threats around. BigDunc (talk) 20:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

70.112.75.86 that is exactly the way I read it. --Domer48 (talk) 20:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I see it that way too and WilyD could you supply diffs for my supposed rule breaks to back up your threats to block me. BigDunc (talk) 20:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't be the only one to keep trying to restore that thread as WilyD continues to delete it over and over and over again. There will be more than one complaint filed about this.70.112.75.86 (talk) 20:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Already circling the wagons here BigDunc (talk) 20:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Please sign up for a Wikipedia account. It is very simple and takes only a minute or so. The presence of three IP addresses complicates this discussion.--C.Logan (talk) 21:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that would be a good idea as it can get confusing. BigDunc (talk) 21:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)