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Historical and natural landmarks

Hi. Does anybody know the correct English translation of terms like 国/市史跡, 文化財 and 国/市名勝? Are there others? Thanks urashimataro (talk) 02:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I generally translate 文化財 as "Cultural Property", since it is standard to translate 重要文化財 as Important Cultural Property. The others I'm not so sure about. LordAmeth (talk) 03:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with LordAmeth about Important Cultural Property and the shorter term. I've seen lots of translations like "historical site," "historical remains" etc. It would be nice to find a good term, official or not, to use for these. You also asked about others; see http://www.bunka.go.jp/bsys/ for a long list of similar terms (not translated). Fg2 (talk) 03:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See also the National Research Institute for Cultural Properties, Tokyo http://www.tobunken.go.jp/index_e.html Fg2 (talk) 04:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hope these pages in English would help. [1] and [2]. Oda Mari (talk) 04:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mari, those have good official translations of lots of these terms. They should be very useful for articles on the places and people, including temples, shrines, castles, performing arts and artists, traditional crafts practitioners, municipalities and more. Thank you. Fg2 (talk) 06:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy that I could help. This is the top page of 文化庁 in English. Look up what you want to know about 文化財-related information from there. Oda Mari (talk) 08:02, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. If I find anything definite on the subject, I will post it here. urashimataro (talk) 04:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've been wanting to create an Important Cultural Property or Important Cultural Properties of Japan article for a looong time now. Unfortunately whenever I try to find information on them I come up short. I have, however, found a list that give the number of properties sorted by prefecture. If anyone is interested in making this article with me, let me know! --TorsodogTalk 22:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's a great idea to create Important Cultural Properties of Japan, because the National Treasures of Japan page is somewhat lonesome right now. In the same website mentioned by Oda Mari above, but unfortunately only in the Japanese page is the latest stats of the ICPs and NTs[3]. At the bottom of the Japanese page there are links to PDF/XLS format listings as of February 1st 2009, but that's maybe what you found. This book [4] might also have some information related as well. Mantokun (talk) 07:27, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tokugawa shoguns

An editor has placed succession boxes at the bottom of the articles on the Tokugawa shoguns (see e.g. Tokugawa Ieyasu). These use templates I'm not familiar with, including {{S-hou}}. That one, or another one, displays the text "Regnal dates." I looked up "regnal" in Merriam-Webster's online version, and it says the word is specific to monarchs and their reigns. Since shoguns were not monarchs, I wonder if anyone has a more appropriate template, together with the knowledge of how to incorporate it into the templates inside templates in these succession boxes. Alternatively, since the articles have information boxes at the top, listing predecessor and successor, do we want these succession boxes at all? Fg2 (talk) 04:03, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I personally prefer to use Template:Succession box. It's simpler and cleaner, and you can put whatever titles you want in it, rather than having it preset to "regnal dates" or anything else inapplicable. As for it being redundant or repetitive with the infoboxes at the top... I personally like this particular template; I like the way it looks at the bottom, pointing clearly left and right for predecessor and successor like a section of a timeline. I like that you can use it for multiple titles at once (for example, many modern officials have a stack of boxes showing their predecessor and successor as Prime Minister, as Foreign Minister, as Diet representative from X District... Many daimyo have multiple succession boxes representing their position as daimyo of X domain and as head of Y family/clan). LordAmeth (talk) 14:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps articles like Ashikaga shogunate, Muromachi period and Ashikaga Takauji et al. provide useful models for handling the Tokugawa shogunate, Edo period and Tokugawa Ieyasu et al.:
This combination of a conventional succession box with navagation templates has also proved useful with Emperor of Japan, List of Emperors of Japan and Emperor Nintoku et al.:
Compare Kamakura shogunate and Minamoto no Yoritomo, which have only succession boxes and no optional navigation templates. In due course, I would have envisaged:
In this context, I note that there are other useful navation templates currently in use on three of the Tokugawa-related pages:
In my view, this strategy of deliberate redundancies has proven workable. It is plausibly helpful because of variations in visual learning and comprehension styles. The comments of Fg2 and LordAmeth create a timely opportunity to review these corollary sets of articles from an overview perspective. --Tenmei (talk) 17:14, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Incidentally, a minor quibble perhaps, but I'm not really a fan of how the succession boxes on Tokugawa Ieyasu and Ashikaga Takauji specify the period that came before (Sengoku Period and Kemmu Restoration respectively). Neither the Sengoku period nor the Kemmu Restoration were people, let alone shoguns, and so I would argue against their inclusion as "predecessor" in these succession boxes. Notice how the succession boxes at the bottom of George Washington don't provide "colonial period" or any other such link as Washington's predecessor either as US President nor as Commander in Chief of the Continental Army. Ito Hirobumi's succession box, likewise, does not provide Edo period or Roju or anything of the sort as his predecessor as Prime Minister of Japan, and rightfully so, since he was the first; neither the Edo period nor the Roju were ever "Prime Minister". LordAmeth (talk) 21:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Quibble resolved: Sengoku period and Kemmu Restoration are deleted. --Tenmei (talk) 01:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. LordAmeth (talk) 01:33, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Potentially useful Tokugawa "navagation" templates (modeled after the Ashikaga corollaries) are an arguably worthwhile:
Format alternatives are roughly parsed at Template talk:Tokugawa chronology (Japan).
Responding explicitly to Fg2's question at the top of this thread: As a matter of personal preference, I would rather see a plain succession box. For me, it would be better if this "regnal" option were reverted. It is redundant, but not in an arguably helpful way. I would restore the pared-down succession boxes which were previously posted. Similarly, I would actively resist using "enhanced" regnal option for Ashikaga shoguns and Kamakura shoguns. For me, the info box at the top of the page is offers a better graphic or visual analytics tool.
I note that this regnal succession box format has not yet metastasized beyond Emperor Komei in the List of Emperors of Japan. In these articles, as well, the info box at the top of the page seems better strategy. --Tenmei (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is only my opinion, but to treat the office of Shogun-particularly in the case of the Tokugawas-as a purely political role seems a bit of a simplification. The Tokugawas were of royal blood as they were a branch of the Minamoto dynasty and they were the first to make the office of Shogun truly hereditary (although it had been hereditary in the past). In effect, during the Edo era Japan possessed two ruling dynasties-that of the Imperial House of Yamato and that of the Tokugawas. At the beginning of the Edo era, Tokugawa Ieyasu made it explicitely clear that the Shogun would be concerned with earthly matters, especially governing the land in the Emperor's name, while the Emperor would be relegated to a spiritual role. Over time, the shoguns stopped consulting the Emperor and did what they pleased. They puppeted the Emperor and his court and kept Nippon in their grasp for over two centuries. When Nippon was opened to foreigners, they signed their treaties with the Bakufu, not with the Emperor. In my opinion, this is not mere governance, it is rule. Therefore, I replaced the plain boxes with regnal boxes. However, I am willing to accept suggestions. --Aumnamahashiva (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For me, the issue isn't really about whether or not the shoguns should be considered "regnal." It's not about their role in history, but is rather a practical matter of the fact that the basic succession boxes are simpler, cleaner, and more widely usable (and thus more capable of being standardized across different roles, so that shoguns and prime ministers and daimyo etc etc can have the same boxes). On a practical basis, outside of the argument of whether or not the Tokugawa were royalty (they weren't), what is gained by using regnal succession boxes? Is there a practical reason that you believe these boxes to be better tools than the basic ones?
In any case, the Tokugawa connection to the Imperial line via the Minamoto heritage was a longshot at best. While this connection was claimed in order to help boost the image of legitimacy of Tokugawa rule, and while the shoguns did sometimes use the title "Great Prince" (大君, taikun), they never claimed titles such as King or Emperor. They are not considered by any major historian today to have been royalty, and are never described or named as such except in centuries-old primary source documents which confused them for being King or Emperor. (talk) 21:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
LordAmeth -- I just want to situate your last paragraph in a context of the Foreign relations of Imperial China. In 1433 (Eikyō 5, 6th month), the Emperor of China addressed a letter to Shogun Yoshinori in which the Chinese presume that the head of the Ashikaga shogunate is effectively the "king of Japan."<:ref>Titsingh, Isaac. (1834). Annales des empereurs du japon, p. 335.</ref> --Tenmei (talk) 21:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Propsosal: I suggest restoring the older, plainer succession box format; but first I want to acknowledge that the edit made by Aumnamahashiva was not "wrong" per se. Indeed, I'm confident that everyone appreciates the good intentions which are made clear in the comments posted above.
Fg2, LordAmeth and Aumnamahashiva: This is my argument in favor of this proposed resolution: I can't distinguish between (a) mere personal preference, and (b) an arguably persuasive impression that the regnal boxes are unhelpful. I don't know how to resolve this issue when it's parsed in this manner. However, I can address the substance of the term "regnal." I don't have to rely on my judgment to know that the Tokugawas are not royals -- despite impressions which may have been formed in Beijing, Lisbon, Madrid or Rome. This is because:

For these two reasons, I would argue that the regnal boxes are inappropriate for shoguns in the Japanese context -- wrong for the Tokugawa, for the Ashikaga, and for their counterparts in the Kamakura shogunate. --Tenmei (talk) 04:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I invited plausibly relevant observations or comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty#Japanese shoguns. --Tenmei (talk) 03:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No comment could be construed to mean not much interest in this topic? --Tenmei (talk) 14:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Translation Request

The Finished Restoration

I am nearly finished with a restoration of File:Forces_returning.jpg. I will be nominating it for featured status, and would love to have a translation. I would be willing to share featured credit with the translator. Thanks, — Jake Wartenberg 19:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the image is a high resolution Japanese woodcut about the Russo-Japanese War. I think it will make a great candidate. I have included the finished restoration on the left. Cheers, — Jake Wartenberg 20:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't read the caligraphy well enough to offer a competent translation, but I can tell you that it's supposed to be a humor piece, and the jist of it is, the Tsar is seeing apparitions of his wrecked ships, canons and telegraph lines coming to haunt him. But you probably already knew that :/ TomorrowTime (talk) 09:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there someone you could recommend who would do a translation? Jake's done a wonderful restoration here, and with a translation it'd be ready for featured picture candidacy. DurovaCharge! 03:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you expand the image to full size on your screen (you will see only a portion of it on screen) it's big enough to easily read the characters. Unfortunately, my Japanese isn't good enough to do the translation. Cla68 (talk) 05:35, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do. I have to first make out everything it's saying (this type of script is hard to read for one out of practice). ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much! — Jake Wartenberg 20:18, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably there are mistakes though, the first two sentences look like this.
日本萬歳　百撰百笑
滅茶負＜け＞の亡霊 骨皮道人
露國の海陸軍は日本軍に一度も勝つ事なく、最初から大敗北と滅茶負で持切て居るのよ 本國へは其（その）大負けを秘密（ないしょ）にしていつも嘘欺（うそ）ばかりを云＜っ＞て?（や）る處（ところ）から、其（その）滅茶負の道具に...Oda Mari (talk) 06:18, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The wood block printer is Kobayashi Kiyochika and 骨皮道人/Honekawa Dōjin? is the writer of the words. Oda Mari (talk) 06:28, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is interesting. Pen name 痩々亭　骨皮道人 (uncertain: Sōsō-tei Koppi Dōjin or Sōsō-tei Koppi Dōnin) was a satire writer, 1861-1913, personal name 西森武城 (Takeki Nishimori). The picture is a part of a satire series under the name of 日本萬歳　百撰百笑 some other prints from the same series, published by 大黒屋平吉 (大黒屋 Daikokuya is the trademark of 松木平吉 Heikichi Matsuki）. "骨皮道人" is a pen name apparently punned on "こっぴどく koppidoku a. terribly". The title of the series is also a pun: the 萬歳 has two meanings. banzai and manzai (be careful the manzai article currently does not explain the "manzai" before what we know as "manzai" in the 21st century.) 百撰百笑 is also a pun on 百戦百勝. 百戦百勝 would mean "100 battles and 100 wins" The 百撰 used has the other meaning "Selection of 100": like used in "Best 100 songs of XYZ". 百笑 is 100 laughs; not a common word but an invention. I think the story is very well summarized by TomorrowTime. The language found in this print is only 100 years old but yet difficult for me born in the 20th century. It uses not only the kanji of those days but also the kana that are not any more commonly used today. It is inevitable that a translation from 100-years-old Japanese involves certain "interpretation" even into modern Japanese. Translating that to English adds up another. I do not know if a translation made by a Wikipedia user without any help from a verifiable external source under such conditions can be a "good" translation to be used in Wikipedia, but if you feel it is, and a summary is really not enough, let me know. Mantokun (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mantokun, you are right. According to this page, 骨皮道人 is Sōsōtei koppi (+jin?). The rest of the caligraphy written by Cursive script (East Asia) is maybe:
使って？？？？、大怪我をした軍艦や大砲や或いハ汽車電信などに？？？？？？？しく思って本國へ其実際を見せに行って　軍艦「ヘイ私は軍艦で御座います、日本艦隊を打ち破れなく斯様（こん）な姿に成りました　大砲「ヘイ私は大砲で御座います、日本軍の大攻撃を受、斯様（かよう）な生れも附（つか）ぬ不具（かたち）になりまして御座います「ヘイ汽車も「ヘイ電信も何（いづ）れも？帯と撞木杖で見る影もない有様で、半死半生ながらも種々（いろいろ）大負の次第を訴へたので、露國の或る危人（？）も初めて其大敗北を知り「ム、今迄の報告とても、餘（あま）り勝利の方でハ無かったが、併（しか）し夫程（それほど）の大負とハ思ハなかった、とハ云え今となってハ遺憾とも仕方がない、乃公（おれ）も残念だが、貴様達もマア負傷して居て呉れ
I'm sure there are mistakes. Correct me. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 20:22, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mantokun, what we are looking for is a translation that's good enough to use on the image hosting page and for featured picture candidacy. So do please give this your best shot; it doesn't have to be perfect (we're a wiki; someone else can always improve on the translation). Best regards, DurovaCharge! 21:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here's my transcript and translation. In the transcript, I did not always bother putting the old kanji's as used in the print, but that won't change the meaning.
For the translation, the other pun used rathter at the end is a word 「危人」, consisting of two kanji characters meaning "dangerous" + "person". There is not such word, but my best guess is that it is playing a pun on「貴人」, a noble person.
Transcript:
日本萬歳　百撰百笑
滅茶負の亡霊 骨皮道人
露國の海陸軍は、日本軍に一度も勝つ事なく、最初から大敗北と滅茶負で持切て居たのに本國へは其大負けを秘密にしていつも嘘欺ばかりを云ってやる處に、其滅茶負の道具に使われて大怪我をした軍艦や大砲や或いは汽車電信等は、そんな馬鹿馬鹿しく思って本國へ其実際を見せに行った 軍艦「へい私は軍艦で御座います、日本艦隊に撃破られてこんな姿になりました 大砲「へい私は大砲で御座います、日本軍の大攻撃を受けて、こやうな生まれも附かぬ不具となりまして御座ります「へい汽車も「へい電信も、と何れも繃帯に橦木杖で見る影もない有様で、半死半生ながらも種々大負けの次第を訴へたので、露国の或る危人も初めて其大敗北を知り「むむ今迄の報告とても、余り勝利の方では無かったが、しかしそれほどの大負けとは思わなかったとは云え、今となっては遺憾とも仕方が無い、おれも断念（残念）だが、貴様達もまぁ負傷して居てくれ
Translation:
Nippon banzai - A selection of the best one hundred laughters
Ghosts from the crushing defeat
by Koppi Dōjin
Not a single win had the Russian Navy and Army but full of flat and crushing defeats in the battles against the Japanse Force. Keeping their defeats secret from their home, they constantly conveyed false reports. The apparatus used by the Russians --- the battleship, the cannon, the locomotive and the telegraph --- were so fed up and went home to show the reality. Battleship: "Here I am the battleship. I got destroyed by the Japanese forces, now here's how I look like." Cannon: "Me I am the cannon. I got heavily attacked by the Japanese forces and became so a crippled style like this, so that no one can recognize what I am." "Me too, me too," follows the locomotive and the telegraph. All of them heavily deformed and nearly wiped out, wrapped with bandages or carrying crutches, the apparatus reported every details of the defeats. A Russian noble, learning the total defeat for the first time said: "Hmmm, not even the reports we had so far were very much victorious, but I did not realize we were losing that badly. Well, it's too late anyways; sorry I am, but just be injured guys."
Mantokun (talk) 03:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, looks like Mantokun beat me to it. Thanks! ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful! But according to the National Diet Library, the title of the book is Nihon Manzai. Click 全項目を表示. And there's another title 社会幻燈百撰百笑 on this page. See 内容細目. Oda Mari (talk) 04:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great finding, thank you. There's nothing better than the NDL as a reference. Replace Nippon banzai with Nihon manzai for its title, and feel free to correct anything else further of course. Mantokun (talk) 07:18, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry that the links are dead now. This is the serch page of NDL. Oda Mari (talk) 07:29, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haibutsu kishaku

Hi. I was looking with Google for an image for the article Haibutsu kishaku (Meiji era anti-Buddhist violence) when I found this. The pic is cute and would be good, but I want to make sure it's what I am looking for, because I can't understand what's written on it. Neither can my Japanese companion (or so I am told), but I know for a fact that, when it comes to my Wikipedia work, she isn't nearly as enthusiastic as I would like. Can anybody figure out more or less what the Japanese says? Does it indeed show an episode of the Haibutsu kishaku? Reading the page it's in, it sure seems to. Thanks. urashimataro (talk) 05:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Even if the picture is not totally irrelevant to haibutsu kishaku, it is a picture from a book that describes an episode about a movement "against" haibutsu kishaku. It is a scene of people gathering at a temple, impatiently waiting, but NOT raiding on that the temple. They are waiting for a result to come out from the meeting between priests and government authorities discussing at the temple about temple abolishments of that region. The full story can be found on the page where you retrieved this picture [5]. The author of the page mentions in the bottom that his story is compiled through his personal research of available resources. Mantokun (talk) 07:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vexing vexillological question re: the Republic of Ezo's flag

I received a request on my Talk page (apparently from the same anonymous editor who asked a similar question here) to look into the sourcing for this file: File:Flag of the Republic of Ezo.svg (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), which purports to depict the flag of the short-lived Republic of Ezo. Does anyone here know of any definitive source (which does not simply reproduce the SVG file above, which seems to have originated with a Wikimedia Commons editor) that indicates Ezo flew a flag like the one our article says it did? --Dynaflow babble 21:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found the flag is sold at a Japanese flag shop on the web. Find --歴史的な旗-- with black font on the left near the bottom and click アジア（旧）with blue font on this page. You can see the list of historical flags in Asia and find the flag there. Oda Mari (talk) 05:37, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Slightly better link - the same page on the same site, without annoying frames. You might also ask Zscout370, our image's creator, what his source was. — Gavia immer (talk) 05:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have been asking the source of the flag lately. First, I appreciate the link regards to the flag, and saw the image on the page. However, the page doesn't have a reference of the flag (as far as I saw), leaving me the question unsolved.

On the other hand, the creator of the image on Ezo Republic, I did ask not so long ago. He replied that he saw it somewhere, but he did not bring the source either.

As I left a comment to Dynaflow in the other day, we still don't have the reference about the flag. And it is quite clear that we need to find out (at least I would like to know) the reference if we keep the flag on the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.191.54 (talk • contribs)

I found this official site of a temple uses the flag as Ezo Republic and the description of the flag on this portal page of Hokkaido matches the image too. I don't think the flag shop and they are not related. I find no reason to doubt them. If you think the removal of the image is needed, please prove us that the image is not the flag of Ezo Republic first. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The image in the first of those links is so similar to ours (the only appreciable difference I can see is that the blue field in the temple's GIF uses #000084, whereas our SVG has its blue field in #000080), that it might be open to question if one depiction had any influence on the other, and in which direction that influence ran. It may also be that only a verbal description survives, and the flag thus needs to be reconstructed according to that description (e.g., see Blazon and Flag terminology). Are we willing to accept as valid a flag image reconstructed solely from a more or less rigorous description? If the answer is yes, then, based on the citable source above, the Ezo flag image should be fine to keep in the article. --Dynaflow babble 06:41, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This magazine [6], published by Shogakukan - a source one can call a generally-accepted reliable source, has an illustration of the flag, which is basically the same as those available on the net. To note though, I have never seen a better description of the flag than saying it was "a chrysanthemum (symbol of Imperial rule) and a red star with seven points (symbol of the new Republic) on a sky-blue background". The red star on the so-called Ezo flag one can find today seems to copy that of today's Hokkaido flag. At any rate, citing the Shogakukan magazine is probably laundering the info source reliablity.

As for that temple's site metioned by Oda-san, to me it really - honestly - appears to be dubious. Only to mention some reasons why I think so are - 1. that site has no info about who they are exactly. only a mail address. No location, no phone, no nothing otherwise. They only try to suggest they are in Nanae, a place close to Goryokaku. 2. the site's flag resemblance to the one in wikipedia has already been mentioned by Dynaflow. 3. The lead-in text of their site about the Ezo Republic, is an almost exact match of that on wikipedia Japanese. In addition, there is at least another part on that site which is again a close-exact match with wikipedia. 4. the site curiously carries a lot of nationalistic messages than a usual temple site would have. Yutaka Sozoryoku (talk) 08:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sorry. I didn't read the content on the temple site. Yes, they are really dubious as a religious corporation. But at least they really exist. [7]. As for the flag on their page, I don't know what to say. Oda Mari (talk) 05:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

in response,

first, i say thank you for the members spending time for the source. and although i haven't seen the image yet, i appreciate the person who brought the book from shogakukan; i say we should look into it.

now, a couple of things,

as oda-san refered the website with the image, i appreciate your argument and reference. but the page does not provide any reference, same as the flag shop. the argument here is now about the reference, so any un-referenced pictures through website don't take us anywhere.

[by the way, don't tell anyone; i did a call to the flag shop asking for the reference before writing this (international call! i need a bail out also). the man i talked over the phone couldn't give me the reference at the time, but they expect me to wait for a reply for the reference. and i am waiting...]

and the other question,

is the star with seven branches gets me confused with the current hokkaido flag.

and my thought,

the current hokkaido flag says, they have taken the image form "Hokkaido Kaitakushi" (emigrated labours [ie; reserved army]), which they don't speak about ezo republic. if they don't give any credit to the seven branches, how do we know that the ezo flag with the seven branches is the original?

in my argument,

if we are going to continue this agenda, here are things we need to find out:

a) i want to know whoever created the image on the page should explain where he/she got the image.

b) i want to know if there was any foreign recognition of the flag as the ezo republic.

c) if the flag was indeed established as ezo republic, i want to know why there wasn't in open public (and still now)

if the creator of the image failed to respond with the standard of wikipedia, the image (unfortunately) has to be removed from the template.

but we should count on anyone other than the creator, makes an effort to keep the image on the web. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.191.54 (talk) 09:43, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At this point, I think there are enough external sources showing a flag that is either the same or really close to the same that there's no point arguing about it any longer. Unless someone can come up with something disproving it, I'd say the issue has been properly addressed. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nihonjoe-san, i appreciate your comment but strongly disagree with your idea, because the issue here (as well as the whole reason why i raised as question), is all about the reference.
explaining, i feel very concerned that an un-referenced image is presented as historical figure. let's not forget that any of the sources mentioned so far couldn't give any reference (,which i could say in bold that "they just put the image without any idea"). so if Nihonjoe-san thinks that a bunch of images on the web makes it convinced, that's not the case. besides, we are at the point to identify if the image came with any reference or not. and any of the sources wasn't able to explain where it came from (even the creator of the image, which i did a question a while ago).
as a proper manner, i believe any editor makes a contribution should keep the quality standard with wikipedia. i strongly disagree to keep an image on the page based on the reason, "anyone saw it somewhere". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.191.54 (talk • contribs)
I added the reference tag in the article to the published magazine I mentioned the last time. Yutaka Sozoryoku (talk) 00:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If there's a print reference, that's plenty sufficient - we don't require online referencing at all, though it is good to have. Based on the conversation so far, I don't think the IP will accept any amount of referencing, but policywise, the references are sufficient at this point. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:11, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

gavia-san, i believe you're missing a point. my question and folloing argument started where the image was created by the editor. and at this point, he is not able bring the source. besides, those images currently available online are not printed images.

also (about the reference what yutaka-san mentioned), another reason keeps me in question is; the current prefectural flag of hokkaido. it is designed, "White fringed red 7 points star on blue field. Blue represents sea and sky of Hokkaido, red stands for people's energy and white for light and snow" (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/jp-01.html#descr).

and the story behind the flag is explained at public site of hokkaido prefectural office (http://www.pref.hokkaido.lg.jp/overview/symbol.html#DOSYO).

it says;

"道旗は、開拓使が使用した北辰旗と、当時着想されていた七稜星のイメージを現代的に表現したもので、地色の濃紺は北の海や空を意味し、星を囲む白は光輝と風雪を表し、七光星の赤は道民の不屈のエネルギーを、またその光芒は未来への発展を象徴したものです。"

my understanding with the description above is that the design of the flag is based on "kaitakushi", what is the development agency established by the meiji government.

i'm confused if the claimed flag as ezo republic is really designed for them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.227.191.54 (talk) 13:44, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ADDITIONAL COMMENT: i believe yutaka-san got a point in terms of the reference. all we need to know is if the publisher got an original drawing or photo (like other antique photos during late edo period), and that will do it.

You seem to mix up the 北辰旗 with the flag of Ezo Republic. Please see these pages. [8], [9], and [10]. The 北辰旗/hokushinki (a red 5 points star on white field) used by 開拓使/the Development Commission was based on the Hokkaido ship flag which is a red 5 points star on blue field. Hokushin means the polestar. And the 七稜星 flag is a red seven pointed star on blue field. The star represents the Big Dipper. Though it is not mentioned on the official Hokkaido pref. page, IMHO, the designer of the current pref. flag must have been seen and used the motif of the flag of Ezo republic too. Oda Mari (talk) 15:59, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Link cleanup help?

Some of our Japan-related dab pages are collecting lots of links. Kochi, Fukuoka, Kokugikan, and Tengen all have over 150 ambiguous links at the moment. Any time you can take to help fix a few links would be appreciated. Dekimasuよ! 13:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kochi is done. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 22:41, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fukuoka is done, though I'm of the opinion that the city should be at Fukuoka rather than Fukuoka, Fukuoka. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You know, the city is designated, and after going through all the pages linking to the disambiguation page to point them correctly, I can attest the city is the most common destination for those links and the most likely article being sought by anyone looking for "Fukuoka". I just moved the city to Fukuoka and moved the disambiguation page to Fukuoka (disambiguation). ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:44, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I still feel like that should happen with Sakai, too (also designated). I clean up the links so it would be difficult to tell from that, but all of the names on the dab page don't even technically belong there, and it is by far the most prominent of the remaining links. Dekimasuよ! 03:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, going by the number of links there are to each of the municipalities in question, I would agree. I've listed them in order:
Given that the next closest one has several times fewer links, is there anyone who objects to including Sakai in the exception list? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:25, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, when it comes to cities, yeah, Osaka-ken Sakai-shi is I'm sure the most well-known, the most searched for and linked to. But what about people who type in "Sakai" in order to search for information about the last name, or about a particular person with that name? I realize that the last name doesn't have an article, nor will it be often linked to by itself, but just to play devil's advocate, I feel I must point out that it's still the most commonly associated meaning, I'm sure, among English-speakers and probably among Japanese too. Type in Sakai to Google, and you'll get tons more hits for a myriad of people by that surname than you will for the city. LordAmeth (talk) 03:41, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Osaka-fu! Dekimasuよ! 04:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, right. duh. LordAmeth (talk) 12:39, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not what we're supposed to do with dabs, though, per WP:MOS-DAB#Given names or surnames--the names shouldn't even really be on the page, since none of those people are referred to as simply "Sakai". One option would be to move them to Sakai (name) or Sakai (surname) and put a hatnote on the city. There are lots of people named Washington, at Washington (name), but they aren't linked prominently or even at all from the plain title or primary dab page. Dekimasuよ! 04:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC) Link was well enough hidden on the dab page that I missed it. Dekimasuよ! 06:12, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I already did that here. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And now that I think about it, yielding to names in that way would imply that Kobe should be a redirect to a basketball player. Dekimasuよ! 06:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed Kokugikan into a short article. That leaves Tengen. Dekimasuよ! 04:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tengen is done. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great! That must have been a lot of work to do them all in less than two days. Dekimasuよ! 06:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just quick with copy and paste. :) ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kokugikan was reverted back to a disambiguation page, but the incoming links are from a template and can't be fixed if it's a dab. See Talk:Kokugikan and the talk page of WikiProject Sumo for more. Hoping for extra input. Dekimasuよ! 06:02, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Siege of Edo Castle and Rescue of Mitsunari and Battle of Kusegawa

The articles Siege of Edo Castle and Rescue of Mitsunari appear to describe fictional events, but the author has removed references to their being fiction. The former article has a section, Siege of Edo Castle#Fall of The Tokugawa, which concludes with the sentence "Ieyasu was now really alone and he continued the fight,but Yukimura came there and fought against him,Ieyasu was defeated and captured,and after that he was executed in Ueda Castle." This is not in full accord with scholarship on the Edo period.

If they're valid articles about fiction, there's no real point in deleting them, but they should be clearly described as fiction. Any suggestions? Fg2 (talk) 11:13, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm generally an inclusionist on most things, but I have trouble thinking that Sengoku Musou should be considered notable enough that battles or story elements in its fictionalized version of history ought to be included. Things like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are major enough elements of our pop culture collective consciousness that battles and events from them are considered notable enough topics, but video game battles? As far as I can tell, these aren't even major/core battles in the game, but rather just events which happen as elements of one storyline (Naoe Kanetsugu's) out of many. If these articles are to be included, that's a slippery slope to including each and every battle from every Sengoku Musou game, every Dynasty Warriors game, and then onto story elements or battles from just about any other video game out there.
In any case, if there were to be consensus to keep them, the articles should definitely start with something to the effect of "In the video game Sengoku Musou 2, the fictional siege of Edo castle takes place between... etc etc." As you point out, it is crucial that they be clearly denoted as fiction, and should also only be included in "fictional battle" categories and the like, nothing historical. LordAmeth (talk) 22:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. That's the approach I tried to take. The author has taken different approach. He or she has also created Battle of Kusegawa, removing the "in-universe" template that Sushiya put in the article, and removed "orphan" templates from all three articles. I've put a notice on the user talk page. Don't know how much good it will do. The more eyes are watching this, the better.
Personally, I know little about manga-anime-videogame fiction, so I have no opinion about whether these topics merit encyclopedia articles. If they were to be deleted by community consensus, I would not object. Another strategy is consolidation, e.g. "Battles in Sengoku Musou" or "Battles in Videogames," where they would be, as you say, clearly denoted as fiction. Fg2 (talk) 22:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I left a message on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Koei Warriors Games, asking for comments. Oda Mari (talk) 05:55, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Maybe being part of the community will convince this editor to accept the description as fiction. Fg2 (talk) 10:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I myself play Samurai Warriors, and I am the founder of Wikipedia:WikiProject Koei Warriors Games. I notified Opopoa with an explanatory message of showing him that no matter what side he plays, that they will win, and that the Warriors games deviate a lot from history (to give characters more of an adventure). I told him that it would probably be best to document the Samurai Warriors battles as a timeline, using a table. (That is, if it must be in Wikipedia at all.) He still has to get back to me, but save the articles just until that timeline article is started with some information filled in. I'd be happy to help. -BlueCaper (talk) 13:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Jingū

I first took notice this list when the creator started to link it in "See also" sections of several shrine articles. I don't know what to make of it. It cites no sources and therefore I don't really know how accurate it is and if it is comprehensive at all. Does anyone know much about this? Is this list worth keeping? --TorsodogTalk 19:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know that much about the subject; never really thought there was any overly special significance to the fact that some shrines are called jingū instead of jinja. If it were to be fleshed out at all - if the original author or someone else were to write full paragraphs about the history of Imperial-related shrines and cited sources, it could be great. Otherwise, I don't see much need to keep it. That's my two cents. LordAmeth (talk) 20:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Related project: WP:SUMO

I just found WikiProject Sumo, which I hadn't realized existed before. I've added it to the WP:JA navbox and added the navbox to the home page of that project. Just FYI. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the reading of 日向大佐 - Is it Hyūga Daichi or Hyūga Taichi?

What is the reading of 日向大佐 - Is it Hyūga Daichi or Hyūga Taichi? Also what is 川島中佐 (Kawashima-something)? - It's about Shadow Hearts WhisperToMe (talk) 07:49, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Those are army ranks. You can find your answers here: Army ranks of the Japanese Empire during World War II. Mantokun (talk) 08:17, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mantokun beat me to it, so I'll just offer the readings: they're taisa and chūsa, respectively. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

JLPT

I have been doing some work on the Japanese Language Proficiency Test article this month, and I'd appreciate any suggestions on what else to do with it. I'm having some trouble finding further reliable sources, although you wouldn't think it would be too hard to find criticisms of the format in print. Dekimasuよ! 12:48, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:WikiProject Japan and featured lists

ATTN any administrators: Is there any chance someone can introduce the Template:FL-Class into the template so it is recognized and displayed properly? Thanks! --TorsodogTalk 14:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've been playing around with a reworked version of the template, which you can see here. You can see the template in action here. Please let me know what you think. I think the new version will allow for more ease of use and modification in the future. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:56, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't do that much work as most of it is just using an existing framework and figuring out how to include everything we need to include. I would appreciate someone(s) looking through it to make sure it's working the way it should be, and to help create documentation so people know how to use it. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Along those lines, this is what it uses. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 20:11, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kuzuryu

Can someone give this a look? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 02:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I worked on a section, but that's all I have time for right now. Should be renamed with the macron, Kuzuryū, as in the opening sentence. Fg2 (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. there's a cascade, Kuzuryū no taki (九頭竜の滝) in Nikkō. Fg2 (talk) 03:11, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Touched the intro and body text a little. Describing the relation of this with mythology, shinto and buddhism is an interesting topic but I don't think I will be able to handle that now cause I don't have any reference handy. Mantokun (talk) 05:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a column from a respected publication, or is this a personal blog?

Hi! I'm trying to figure out if this http://journal.mycom.co.jp/column/ebook/077/ is a personal blog or if it is a review of The Manzai Comics from a respected publication. I can't tell who wrote the article and/or if he/she is a staff member of the website. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. It is not a personal blog but a news portal site "MYCOM Journal" (マイコミジャーナル, maikomi jaanaru) run by a company called Mainichi Communications [11], a well established company with clear backgrounds. The article you found was written and signed by an author named On Ichii (一井おん, ichii on). We can see that she was writing a weekly review for MYCOM between 2005 and 2007, titled "Lil' nice e-book" (ちょこっとイイブック, chokotto ii bukku), where she wrote about books published in electronic formats. What I cannot tell is what her relationship exactly was with MYCOM (i.e. whether she was a staff writer or a freelance etc.) As of today, she seems not to be writing for MYCOM but there are some other columns by her at least on one different magazine. Mantokun (talk) 11:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tokyo... prefecture?

Recently, a user removed almost all references to Tokyo being a prefecture in the List of tallest buildings and structures in Tokyo. Is this correct (though its implementation would need some cleaning up), or should I revert? --TorsodogTalk 15:25, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tokyo absolutely is a prefecture, though it's a weird, special sort of "metropolitan prefecture". He may be thinking that "prefecture" is a translation of 県 (ken) rather than that it includes all 47 都道府県 (todōfuken). I don't see any problem with either "Tokyo" or "the prefecture" in these cases, though "the Tokyo" is obviously wrong; I'm going to change all of those to just "Tokyo"; if people decide to, we can change it back to "the prefecture." They're equally correct as far as I'm concerned. LordAmeth (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's not necessary to refer to Tokyo as "the prefecture" but neither is it necessary to change that to "Tokyo." And that we should not write "the Tokyo" as this user did. Either reverting or touching up should be ok here. Fg2 (talk) 21:04, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted back to using both "the prefecture" and "Tokyo". Using only "Tokyo" to refer to the area makes the prose very redundant. --TorsodogTalk 21:20, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two sen - Tokyo absolutely is a prefecture, even if it isn't a ken as such... TomorrowTime (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Help

I'm trying to promote Kumi Koda to a FA article and I want to expand her musical style section. But I can't read Japanese so I would be grateful it if someone could translate this.

――トラックを受けて、倖田さんが歌詞に込めた想いは？
【倖田】　トラックを受けてパッと思いついたのが同性愛だったんですよ。私は相手が異性であろうと同性であろうと関係ないと思うタイプなんです。相手が誰であろうと“人を愛する気持ち”に変わりはないでしょ？“学校の先生に恋をしている”とか“友達の彼を好きになってしまった ”･･･なんて禁じられた恋をしている男女も同じ。そこで“好き”という気持ちを殺してしまうのは悲しすぎますよね。愛は人間を豊かにしてくれる宝物だから。大事にして欲しいなって思います。


From what I got from Google translator it's something about love not being straight or gay. ~Moon~月と日の出 ~Sunrise~ 05:08, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Interviewer: What were the thoughts you decided to convey in the lyrics when you first heard the song?
Koda: The first thing that sprung up in my mind when I heard the song was homosexuality. I'm the type of person who thinks that [in a relationship] it doesn't matter what sex the other person is. No matter who they are, it doesn't change the "I love this person" feeling, does it? And it's the same for those who fall into forbidden loves, like falling in love with their school teacher, or starting to like someone who is a good friend. To kill the feeling of attachment for someone is just too cruel. Love is a treasure that enrichens us. I want people to treat it with care."

(I just know that there is a better translation for “好き”という気持ち, but I can't for the world remember it now. Help me out, please.) TomorrowTime (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This too please.

――サウンドはもちろん「TABOO」というタイトルもパンチがありますよね。“禁じられた行為”や“犯してはならない領域”を意味するこの言葉をタイトルに掲げた理由は？
【倖田】　この楽曲は“タブー”を歌っているわけじゃなく、逆に“タブーなんて存在しないんじゃないの？”というメッセージが込められているんですよ。みんなそれぞれ自分のなかに“これはやっちゃいけない”というタブーを持っていると思うんですね。それは、人生を歩み失敗や経験を繰り返すなかで作られてきた自分のルール。そのルールは自分を守るために必要なものであるとは思うんですけど、自分を縛りつけてしまうこともあると思うんですよね。トライしてみなきゃわからないのに、その前からNoサインを出してしまったり、タブーを打ち破り挑戦することで見えてくる新しい世界もきっとあると思うんです。ときには守りに入るのではなく勇気をもって攻めてみてもいいんじゃないか、と。そんな想いがこの曲には込められているんです。

Thanks. ~Moon~月と日の出 ~Sunrise~ 08:23, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Interviewer: The album sounds great, and the title, TABOO, is also powerful. What made you chose a title that refers to "something forbidden", "an area that must not be tresspased"?
Koda: I am not singing about taboos, the message is really "There is no such thing as a taboo". I think everyone has in their minds some limits, some things they think must not be done. These are personal rules that arose from past mistakes and experiences. These rules are necessary to us, but I think they also hold us down. Instead of trying stuff out and experiencing it, we put up a "No" sign, we never try to break the taboos, eventhough I think there is a whole new world to see by doing so. Sometimes we shouldn't retreat into safety, we should have courage and do things. Those are the feelings in the song."

TomorrowTime (talk) 08:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great work provided by TomorrowTime. I couldn't come up with any better translation for 「“好き”という気持ち」, but just wanted to mention“友達の彼を好きになってしまった ” is probably like "starting to like the boyfriend of a friend of yours". (「彼」in this case is the 「彼氏」「カレ」) Hope this adds to the already perfection of TomorrowTime's translation. Mantokun (talk) 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC) 　[reply]
Mantokun is right, that one slipped under my radar. TomorrowTime (talk) 15:49, 28 February 2009 (UTC) (Also, the word that I couldn't think of for「“好き”という気持ち」 was "attraction".)[reply]

Thank you for translating. ~Moon~月と日の出 ~Sunrise~

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 05:44, 28 February 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Books from Wikipedia articles

If you've noticed the links related to books in the left column of Wikipedia pages, you may have been tempted to try out the new feature. I did, adding pages in Category:Prefectures of Japan to a book, which I named Places in Japan: Prefectures and Provinces. You can load the book, create a PDF, and order a printed copy at User:Fg2/Books/Places in Japan. (It took some minutes to create the PDF, and some more minutes to download it.) The PDF is in full color, although a printed volume would be in black ink on white paper. I'd guess the book has something like fifty articles; the PDF checks in at 441 pages. Help:Books/Frequently Asked Questions tells me this would cost $20.90 (if I understand it correctly).

Generally, things looked all right. The information boxes didn't come out very attractive. You might want to try a book and see what they look like. Selecting fewer articles should speed up the process. Some lists came out with unequal spacing.

These results might be helpful in fine-tuning the layout of the articles.

Any other observations? Fg2 (talk) 05:23, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have one. The question mark in the Nihongo template gets printed. Can we find a way to use one of the "nonprinting" templates to make this not appear? Fg2 (talk) 05:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to Help:Books/for experts, it can be hidden by using {{Hide in print}}. I tried applying it to {{nihongo}} in my sandbox and seems working. --Kusunose 06:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I tried it too and it worked. The template is protected, so I can't edit it, but it a temporary version works. If an administrator would replace the question mark with {{Hide in print|?}} it won't show up in the PDF. Fg2 (talk) 08:29, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I made {{editprotected}} request to the template at Template talk:Nihongo#Hiding question mark in PDF. --Kusunose 09:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! That should make it print better. Fg2 (talk) 10:47, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Contains Japanese text

Should we hide {{Contains Japanese text}} from printing? Or can anyone think of a reason to make it print (when you click Print in your browser, or when you create a PDF or paper book)? Fg2 (talk) 10:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it should be hidden. There's really no reason to include it. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 15:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nanking Massacre

Folks, please watch this one, it's been barraged the last couple days. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 07:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I found something else that had been scrubbed over the last few days. If it continues, you might want to ask to have the page protected. Dekimasuよ! 08:00, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: pixiv

I've been thinking, seeing as how pixiv is rapidly growing, would it be notable enough to create an article for it? The Japanese Wikipedia already has a lengthy article on it too.--十八 11:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, most certainly. The Japanese Wikipedia article you mention has several published, notable third-party references which comfortably establishes its notability and importance. ···巌流? · talk to ganryuu 11:39, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I started the article; still needs some work.--十八 08:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Translation requests

I have just (nearly) completed a total overhaul of Wikipedia's translation system. Previously, there was a very complicated method of posting translation requests. Now there are simply tags, such as {{Expand Japanese}}, that can be placed on stub articles (or longer articles if appropriate). I have tried to review all previous translation requests. Many translation requests were very old and no longer seemed needed, because the English Wikipedia article had developed in the meantime. Other translation requests were fixed by adding tags to existing English-language articles. However, a good number of requests remain that were redlinked. With other languages, I generally could create stubs myself that I could add the tags to. But Japanese machine translation is awful, and I figured I should play it safe and not even attempt to do this. So I am leaving the list of articles here for members of this wikiproject to evaluate. Hopefully people here can create stubs as needed, and tag them with {{Expand Japanese}}, so that translation can take place later. If you are interested in checking out other articles in need of translation (the ones that are properly tagged already), see Category:Articles needing translation from Japanese Wikipedia. Thanks for your help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Calliopejen1 (talk • contribs) 00:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did one of them and struck it from the list. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need map for Extreme points of Japan

Satellite view of Japan.
File:EEZ of Japan.PNG
EEZ of Japan.

I've been cleaning up Extreme points of Japan and was looking for a map for the lead image. I was looking specifically for a map of Japan that includes Okinawa in its correct position so I could accurately show where the points lie in relation to each other. I wasn't able to find one on the wiki, however. Does anyone know of one that I can use? Thanks --TorsodogTalk 03:12, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What about this one? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 04:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, in answer to my own question, it looks like the satellite map to the right doesn't show the locations of Minami Torishima (map doesn't go far enough east by about 800-900 miles) or Okinotorishima (doesn't go far enough south by about 100 miles). Other than that, you should be able to easily label the other points. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I take that back. I wasn't paying attention. It looks like the location of Minami Torishima is barely on the map, really close to the eastern edge. So, only missing one of them. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Or this one? Oda Mari (talk) 05:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only problems I see with this one are the inclusion of Iturup and other Kuril Islands, and Liancourt Rocks, none of which are under the control of Japan. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This one seems to me like a derivative work of this map [12] posted of the website of Hydrographic and Oceanographic Department, Japan Coast Guard[13]. Isn't there a copyright problem here?--Dwy (talk) 07:17, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It does look like someone took the map you mention and removed the text. You can even see remnants of the arrows. After looking things over, I've nominated it for speedy deletion as a copyvio. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:48, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FYI. This is their copyright policy page. Oda Mari (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The page says it's OK to use it with the specification of the source. I called them and asked for confirmation and now am waiting for the reply. Maybe I'll call them again tomorrow. Please wait for a while. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 10:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you do get permission from them, or get them to change the license of the images, feel free to have them email their authorization to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They would have to specifically state it's available under one of the licenses listed here (日本語). Otherwise the images can not be used on Commons. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Sorry for my lack of knowledge on copyright laws. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:22, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about it. If you do get a reply, I recommend asking them to send their permission to the address above. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I first thought the map was their English map. But it turned out to be not theirs. As Dwy pointed out, it must be a derivative work. So it was good to delete the map. Thank you 日本穣. Oda Mari (talk) 09:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your help. I ended up going with the first image to create the map. --TorsodogTalk 16:03, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aya

Sorry to keep putting articles up here, I just keep finding ones that need significant attention. Please have a look. Thanks. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should have a cleanup taskforce so articles needing work can be listed there as things to do? We sort-of have something like it on the main page, but it's not managed very well. It may work better as a separate page. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 02:21, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Museums of Japan

When I noticed that another author had had the temerity [emoticon] to stick a "notability" template on an article that was in part my own, I retaliated improved the article by shoveling in a cartload of notability. The result as it stands is still a short, boring and uninformative article, but more to the point it's another painful reminder that en:WP doesn't pay art galleries and the like anywhere near as much attention as it does suburban commuting stations, voice actors, pokemon, gurabia aidoru, and so forth. Look at all those red links!

But then, look at Category:Museums in Japan. That's a mess too. Over the last couple of days I've been creating the occasional Category:Museums in XYZ Prefecture, but even before I started there were Category:Museums in Gifu Prefecture and some others. However, there's no Category:Museums in Saitama Prefecture or Category:Museums in Hiroshima Prefecture, whereas there are Category:Museums in Saitama, Saitama and Category:Museums in Hiroshima (i.e. the city).

How about this suggestion:

  1. Create Category:Museums in XYZ Prefecture (avoiding the word "Prefecture" where appropriate) for every prefecture in which there's at least one museum on which we have an article.
  2. Recommend (via the appropriate process) the deletion of Category:Museums in placename for every placename that isn't a prefecture, if that category has fewer than five museums.
  3. Discourage the creation of any new Category:Museums in placename-other-than-prefecture, until that category would have at least ten museums.
  4. Aim to keep Category:Museums in Japan empty of articles, and use it solely for categories.

Japan doesn't have so very many prefectures, so an intermediate Category:Museums in Japan by prefecture (or similar) strikes me as an unnecessary complication.

(Incidentally, I commend the article on The Gallery Saatchi & Saatchi to any connoisseur of the horrible.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:01, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Regarding The Gallery Saatchi & Saatchi, I made some changes that took out a lot of the fiction and spam, leaving a much blander article. The version before my changes was more interesting. Fg2 (talk) 08:49, 8 March 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Regarding the proposal on categories of museums, I think we discussed this before, but my memory grows dim. I agree that all museums, being in prefectures, should be neatly tucked away in categories like "Museums in Yamanashi Prefecture" and the main category of museums in Japan should not have individual entries for museums. I think a category will display up to 200 subcategories, and that would accommodate all categories for prefectures without requiring an intermediate category for museums by prefecture while still allowing room for other subcategories and appearing on a single page. So it seems ok to remove Category:Museums in Japan by prefecture, even if in the distant future it becomes worthwhile to create it again. Fg2 (talk) 10:08, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear, you and I seem to be muddling away at cross purposes (our main agreement perhaps being that together we have succeeded in degrading The Gallery Saatchi & Saatchi from an amusing congeries of bollocks to a workmanlike but boring stub):

I'm most grateful to DAJF for having created Usui Pass Railway Heritage Park, a most welcome third member of Category:Museums in Gunma Prefecture. Yes, a splendid category structure would be welcome, but what I think are needed more acutely are more articles on museums, however categorized. -- Hoary (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the context of this "museums"-thread, I wonder if the categorization created by the Japanese government doesn't seem a little like like apples and oranges?
It is entirely reasonable to construe Japanese museums as an array which intuitively suggests location as a logical parsing parameter, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this is the best or only way to proceed.
While corollary categories like Category:Museums in the United States and Category:Museums in Austria are now parsed geographically, why not consider working towards a more complex, nuanced approach as suggested by Category:Museums in France or Category:Museums in Australia?
Hoary's suggestion is not in any sense wrong; and perhaps consensus will determine that it is best for now. I just wonder if it's the only way to go? --Tenmei (talk) 16:01, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I confess to finding myself rather baffled as to the point you're making about the categorization used by the Japanese government. But whether or not it's "apples and oranges", en:WP may or may not choose to follow it. However, following it of course would not preclude other categorization systems. Thus Osaka Contemporary Art Center (a humble stub that I created last night) is now (in addition to Japan-irrelevant categories):

Or respectively:

  • museum by funding
  • museum by place
  • museum by genre

which seems unobjectionable, though not necessarily optimal.

As for the details, they do raise questions:

  • The easy assumption that "Prefectural museums" are Japanese clashes with Prefectures in France, etc.
  • Museums in [the city of] Osaka seems to have preempted Category:Museums in Osaka Prefecture, unless perhaps all the museum in the prefecture are in the city (which I doubt).
  • I don't think I've ever encountered anything I'd term an "art museum", although I can easily imagine such a thing. In my own head, I separate (a) museums and (b) galleries (although I do recognize that the latter term is ambiguous, 美術館 vs 画廊). If "Art museums" is supposed to emphasize 美術館 and exclude 画廊, then surely 画廊 come in as "galleries". Still, this just parrots "Category:Art museums and galleries" (where it goes unexplained).

Hoary (talk) 00:11, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Archives search

Some archived discussions have search capabilities. See e.g. Help:Books/Feedback. Does anyone have enough experience with this to know if it's useful for this WikiProject Japan talk page and the Manual of Style talk page? Fg2 (talk) 10:24, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As there are more than 30 archived discussion pagesfor WP:JA, I think it would be useful to have search capability. I searched a bit and found that the feature in {{archive box}} is implemented with MediaWiki's Inputbox extention, using MediaWiki's fulltext search with prefix: parameter. Here is a search box for WP:JA talk page archives. --Kusunose 16:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it to the template at the top, though it may take a short while to see it. Try clearing your cache files if it doesn't appear right away. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:39, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it to the WT:MOS-JA page, the WT:ANIME page, and the WT:MOS-ANIME pages, too. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:54, 8 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Project template updated

Okay, I've updated {{WikiProject Japan}} to take advantage of some new things. Please review the documentation found there for information on how to take advantage of all the new features. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice... pictures. Has the usage of "tf= xxx" etc been updated by bot to support the new format?
There should be an image-needed option (and it should automatically also add the photo task force)
If the update task force supports any Japan article needing updating, then a update-needed option should be added, using the {{update}} clock image, and automatically adding the update task force. 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, whoever you are. If you don't like the images used, feel free to suggest others. I changed it to use the image you suggested. The photo task force can be added to it by adding |phototf=yes, and then removed once the photos have been handled. I'll look into whether there is an "image needed" parameter which can be added. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There's a needs-photo on the example at WPBannerMeta... 76.66.193.90 (talk) 09:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't WP:ANIME be listed as well? 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:03, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, they have their own banner and this banner is generally not on any of their articles. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The various taskforce listings should be accompanied by any extant portals as well... such as task force Tokyo should have it's line on the infobox also indicate Portal:Tokyo (unfortunately, this functionality is not currently part of WPBannerMeta. I made a request for it to be added, but not much interest from what's been happening to the conversation) 76.66.193.90 (talk) 06:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Until that support is added, I don't know if that can be included. I'll see if there is a workaround. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:39, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment and peer review

I've added an Assessment page (replacing the former one which never really went anywhere). It has a lot of useful information on it and allows people to list articles they want assessed. Please watch that page if you wish to help people with article assessment.

I've also added a Peer review page to allow the project to more easily review articles brought up by people. Please post article review requests there rather than here. Please watch that page if you wish to help review Japan-related articles. Thanks! ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 00:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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