Talk:Genesis creation narrative

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WP:WTA#Myth_and_Legend says that "'myth' may be used to refer to a false belief or a fictitious story, person or thing"

As may be seen in both "Lede" and "First sentence" subsections above, there is considerable controversy among this article's editors about the insistence on having the word "myth" in the very first sentence of this article.

Proponent arguments, where present, are largely based on the definition of a Creation myth and their claim that changing "myth" to something like "narrative" or "account" will do disservice to the integrity of the article.
Opponents argue are that characterizing the Book of Genesis creation accounts in chapters 1 and 2 as a "myth" is an affront to both Judaism and Christianity in that it is part of their Bible which they consider sacred.

Various compromises have been suggested but never accepted through expression of consensus. One of those was to create a footnote to either "narrative" or "account," explaining the formal academic understanding of a Creation myth.

The matter is getting pretty ugly and we need your comment assistance─quickly, please. Thank you. Afaprof01 (talk) 02:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is not considerable controversy. In the previous section there is plenty of support and a clear rationale for the use of creation myth in terms of policy, guidelines (the first sentence makes it clear we're talking about a religious topic) and reliable sources, and then there are a few editors who just don't like the term. Starting an RFC because you don't like Wikipedia's polices and relevant reliable sources is nothing short of woeful. Ben (talk) 03:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woeful indeed. The case for using creation myth is very clear and supported by precedent, academic and technical. Other very long standing wikipedia articles (the creation myth article itself), a google test, a review of sources (encyclopedic, academic and theological) while the case against it is no more than "those words offend me". WP:WTA#Myth and Legend states "In less formal contexts, it may be used to refer to a false belief or a fictitious story, person or thing." the operative words being "In less formal contexts" which this article does not do. The example from WTA of "less formal contexts" is "For instance, avoid using the word to refer to propaganda or to mean something that is commonly believed but untrue." None of which this article does. It simply references another article which very formally defines the term and the context in which it is used. Additionally you'll see that Creation Myth is a widely accepted term that has an actual definition[1][2][3][4][5]. When one googles Define "Creation Narrative" there were no definitions or specific articles regarding the concept of "Creation Narrative" and a handful of the hits that came back on the first page specifically defined the term Creation Myth and used the words "Creation Narrative" in the discussion of the definition or encyclopedic article (not wiki) on Creation Myth. The precident and amount of support for using creation myth is HUGE. We use creation myth because it is the real and academically accepted term to describe different belief system's versions of how the world was created. Nefariousski (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing wrong with using "creation myth" in the first sentence, as per the way these things are normally done here on Wikipedia. Dayewalker (talk) 06:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some days ago I made this edit in an attempt to compromise between the two camps and to strike a balance per WP:JARGON. For what its worth, I don't think that the fact that some people misunderstand or even find certain technical terms offensive is any sort of argument against using those words, as long as our usage is in line with the correct academic usage of such words. Gabbe (talk) 11:32, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Changing a formal, technical term to a made up term to placate those whom are offended by the formal and correct term isn't the right way to go. I think the best way to keep the integrity of the intro and to calm those who dislike it would be to add a sentance or two explaining exactly what is the formal meaning of creation myth and to clarify context / intent of using the proper term. I'd like to also note that this is the same compromise that was agreed upon when the actual creation myth article was created and that article has been fairly stable for quite some time now.Nefariousski (talk) 18:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with the arguments above that there is no due cause to remove the term "creation myth", however its replacement with the word "narrative" wouldn't be inaccurate. What I strongly disagree with however would be the replacement originally suggested by PiCo in which it would be described as a "sacred narrative". This would clearly be an inclusion of POV. Some people think the story is sacred and others do not. Wikipedia shouldn't advocate particular people's opinions.Chhe (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RNPOV really leaves no room to replace the term Myth in this article. If you want to challenge that policy, fine, but do it there. WP:POV is mandatory for all articles in its entirety. There will be no small 'revolution' here to serve as a beachhead. This has come up 100,000,000 times at Talk:Creation myth, and as you'll notice, that page is still exactly where it's always been. It would appear that at this point all possible arguments have been exhausted and are beginning to loop back on themselves (though they all boil down to "throw the believers a bone, won't it be nice?"). --King Öomie 21:40, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

LOL I can just picture King George III shrilly shrieking "There vill BE no small 'revolution' here...!" Uh, if something is manifestly and grossly unjust, and attitudes like yours are what are thrust in our faces, then of course many people who see this will rebel - it's called human nature. (Though you might have known something about that) When will you wake up and notice that self-described "Atheist" editors haven't accomplished anything, or persuaded anyone of their correctness, by getting their POV enshrined as "NPOV" on wikipedia; it's all been in vain - five years later, the issue is still just as strong as it was five years ago, as it probably will be five years from now, too. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:53, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, except no. This is not the proper place to discuss changing WP:NPOV to fit your need for religious vindication. WT:NPOV is. But feel free to compare me to more unsavory historical figures, Hitler. You ARE aware you're comparing the oppressed masses under a tyrant to volunteers on a privately-owned web site, right? --King Öomie 22:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and also. The tendency for logical arguments to... bounce off the heads of the religiously-motivated isn't a failing of the atheists. --King Öomie 22:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's true that I do fail to see any logic in your arguments. If NPOV policy across wikipedia is that we do not endorse an offensive POV, but rather describe and attribute all POVs neutrally, how is it "logical" for the controversial subject of Genesis to be a magic exception to that? All I have really seen are illogical appeals to emotion from editors who describe themselves as atheist, but that are becoming difficult for many other editors to follow who don't share your perspective. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you're being serious about Genesis being an exception to the rule, then you're letting your personal bias cloud your judgement. You don't care about WP:RNPOV. You're offended, goddamnit, and something must be done about it.

The comparison to removing 'SWP' or 'PBUH' or whatever it was from instances of Muhammad in islamic articles is QUITE apt, despite your assertion (at least, I think that was you). Muslims find it EXTREMELY disrespectful to lay his name bare like that, without the honorific. Every week or so someone cries out on Talk:Muhammad/Images, demanding, for the sake of decency, that the images be removed. "What will it hurt?" they ask. "Please! You offend so many, and for what?" they plead. "You will not be safe until they're gone", they threaten (and I'm not joking). Pretty much your arguments (except the death threat). Creation Myth is the accepted, scholarly term, and thus it will be used. That's exactly how simple it is. --King Öomie 22:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Creation Myth is a term accepted by SOME scholars. Many others have specifically rejected its application to Genesis. There has been no grand unanimity-imposing council, where all scholars had to accept this, and all those who have rejected it were branded as "heretics". So explain to me one more time please, how exactly is it "logical" to pretend these scholars don't exist, and for us to go out of our way to use an inflammatory term, when a more neutral one would convey the same ostensible meaning? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They are a tiny minority, and I don't really care what the think. In the same way that I don't care about the .0001% of scientists to advocate biblical literalism. --King Öomie 22:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I care more about what a published RS by a prominent theologian thinks, than I care about what you think - after all, you are just a wikipedia editor. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bullshit. I've given sources above. And not just sources that use the term, they're a dime a dozen. I have provided a source that explicitly tells us that the term is mainstream. The problem here is that you care more about what you think than what reliable sources say. You accuse others of POV pushing, but it has become blatantly obvious that it's you that is POV pushing. Ben (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And I've provided prominent theologians who explicitly disagree with your sources. The problem is that you are asserting some sort of magic priority for your sources and your school of thought, and refusing to acknowledge that other significant schools of thought even exist. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"4 out of 5 dentists agree that sugar-free gum is the way to go" now translates to "There is NO consensus that sugar-free gum doesn't infringe on the human rights of hypoglycemic individuals, so that's the view we should present" --King Öomie 02:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would we use the word myth when the word story is much more used and less contentious? Most theologians use 'creation story' when writing for a non-technical audience (as we are). Myth is explicitly listed as a word to avoid. DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:04, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because "Creation Story" also fails the Google Test which tells me that it is in fact much LESS often used than Creation Myth as a stand alone term. I found zero hits on the formal definition of the term "Creation Story" not to mention an decidedly Judeo-Christian slant on all the articles that did pop up in the first few pages while Creation Myth Returned a solid dozen definitions in the first few pages, academic articles, and no faith skewing since it is a faith neutral term. Nefariousski (talk) 23:35, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DJ, I would suggest reading the above thread and Talk:Creation myth. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I tried Google "creation myth" got 303,000 hits and "creation story" 391,000, including some Hindu hits on the first page. Which Google were you trying? The Google test is not about definitions, it's about usage. And what precisely is your objection to a 'Judeo-Christian slant' when talking about Genesis? DJ Clayworth (talk) 23:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

DJ, We're talking about a formal term, not common usage. I googled Define "Creation Myth" in my test to see how often it is used as the formal term for what we're talking about here. If you do the same test against any other variant (Narrative, Story etc...) you'll find that none of them are, as a term considered the formal definition of a religious or supernatural account of how it all began. Not to mention if you type "Creation Myth" in google search and don't hit anything the drop down that shows the most popular searches tries to finish the term out with the following: Stories, Ideas, Greek, Similarities, of Buddhism, Definition, Of Egypt, of Hinduism, Lesson Plan. If you do the same test with "Creation Story" you get: Genesis, for kids, coloring pages, of hinduism, activities, bible, in genesis, for preschoolers, of buddhism, pictures. Which is decidely more slanted towards Judeo-Christian accounts.

Now let's execute both searches. Creation Myth comes up with the following article on world creation myths, A listing of world creation myths, another, Aztec Creation Myth, an analysis of various creation myths, Egyptian Creation Myths etc... you get the picture. Do the same with "Creation Story" and the first link The summary of the bible Story of Creation, 4 more christian websites, an article titled Hebrew/Christian Creation Myth etc... Looking at "related Searches" we find, "Creation Story old testament", "Creation Myth story", "Creation Bible Story", "Genesis Creation Story", "Adam and Eve Creation Story"

My objective to Judeo Christian slant is seen in WP:WTA#Myth and Legend which specifically states that we should avoid calling one faiths account a Myth and another's a Narrrative or a story or any other term. Additionally it's pretty clear that as a stand alone term Creation Myth actually exists and means something and has strong precedence here on Wiki and everywhere else while "Creation Narrative" and "Creation Story" alone and without context mean nothing as stand alone terms (hence their lack of any definitions as stand alone terms). Not to mention WP:NPOV and WP:RNPOV dictate that we don't slant any articles towards any particular belief regardless of their content. I know it's hard for some editors to be objective when you have faith in a belief but that's what's required in this case. Nefariousski (talk) 01:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the results of '"creation story" and about 1 in 10 were kids sites. Even if we exclude them, that still means there are more hits for creation story than creation myth. I don't see why finding more definitions makes a difference - maybe creation myth is a term that needs defining (because it's technical) and creation story doesn't.

I agree with your point about equal treatment for faiths, but that doesn't mean we should violate policy equally for all faiths. Myth is still a term to be avoided, according to policy, and I see no evidence that pairing it with another word somehow makes it less so. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please add WP:NPOV to the above list of recommended reading. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course the account of creation in Genesis 1 is a "myth" in a technical sense. And Roman Catholicism is a "cult" in a technical sense too. But outside of technical discussions, using terms like "myth" and "cult" convey emotionally charged and somewhat misleading ideas to lay audiences. Why not simply use the phrase "creation story" in the lead and then include a fuller discussion of the appropriateness of the word "myth" in the body? "Story" is fully capable of indicating a non-literal narrative, but it lacks the connotation of "bull-crap" that "myth" often carries in the popular imagination. Eugeneacurry (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My mum used to yell at me if I told "stories" and so I disagree with your assessment of the connotation of the words. Theory has negative connotations too, you know, but I don't see science articles worrying about this. In the technical sense, to use your words, theory is correct. Furthermore, your suggestion seems to fall foul of policy (WP:RNPOV). Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I checked WP:RNPOV, you seem to be right.Eugeneacurry (talk) 08:49, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Debate Déjà vu

This is in essence a Déjà vu and a repeat/replay of the debate about the use of the word "myth" within various Wikipedia articles, which has taken place elsewhere, and usually takes place around Easter every year on the Good Friday or Crucifixion of Jesus pages. Here is a link: Talk:Good_Friday#RfC_on_crucifixion_as_part_of_Christian_mythology_in_Good_Friday_article

There is clear precedent that the words "myth" and "mythology" are NOT to be used within religious articles in Wikipedia for that would render an opinion about the religion, making it POV. There is absolutely no point in pitting non-believing scientists against believing priests on this talk page for the debate will never end. Those interested in debates of that type should select a suitable bar/pub and continue the discussions there: Wikipedia is no place for it. The only way is to just say that: Book A on topic B says C. This debate is a waste of time and must end based on the precedents in Wikipedia. History2007 (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such precedent, and if there was on a single article talk page it would be in violation of our NPOV policy. Ben (talk) 02:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

THe problem at hand is "myth" vs the proper noun "Creation Myth". They don't mean the same thing. Creation Myth does not equal myth they have two very different definitions. Creation Myth is a widely accepted formal term that does not carry any of the negative connotations in the definition of "myth". Those against using Creation Myth base their arguements solely on appeals to sensitivity around the definition of "myth". This is as silly as saying the word assassinate is offensive because it contains the word "ass" twice. The fact that there is any debate at all on using the widely accepted and formal term Creation Myth in favor of replacing it with a non formal combination of words that as a distinct term mean absolutely nothing and have no unique definition in the name of preventing offence blows my mind. The concensus out in the real world among scholars and academia regarding the use of Creation Myth is so clear as to be undebateable. Nefariousski (talk) 02:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can scream that it's "undebateable" til you're blue in the face, but it fails to account for all of the debate... not just here, but in the sources... not just now, but ongoing for centuries and unlikely to be resolved by mere chutzpah or bald assertion.. "Undebateable" my aunt fanny. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's no debate in the sources. All of your sources criticize the use of the word "myth" which is distinctly different from a Creation Myth You can't pick apart the parts of a term and define them independently. The Electoral College is not an institute of higher learning because it contains the word college. Words have meaning and context, all of your arguements and "sources" are for the wrong context and essentially the wrong word. Creation Myth as a proper noun has to be considered as if it was one word with a unique meaning that is destroyed if either of it's component words are changed. Definitions about America or States are wildly different than the definition of United States of America. Nefariousski (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arguments with Til are likely to go in circles, so I'd save your keyboard. We have presented sources and cited policy in favour of the term creation myth, and the article is locked for three days. I suggest we stop taking baited comments like Til's and just address any relevant arguments, assuming they appear. If nothing relevant has been presented in three days then I think it's safe to assume nothing will, and we can archive this. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than just making this an either/or debate

Rather than just making this an either/or debate, at this point, a third way should be looked at. Also note that Wikipedia:Explain jargon says, as its lead, "Words and phrases used as jargon by any profession or group should usually be avoided or explained." Consider the likes of this this:

“

Creation according to Genesis refers to the first two chapters of the Bible's Book of Genesis^[1] and the creation narrative (colloquially) or creation myth (formal term^{[note 1]}) found there in.

”

^{Carlaude:Talk} 04:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

^ While the term myth is often used colloquially to refer to "a false story", this article uses the term "creation myth" in the formal, academic meaning of "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form."

I'm not against compromise and in fact I like your suggestion for the most part. I'd prefer to just add an explanation of the exact definition and context of the term Creation Myth and not muddy the waters with a secondary term. WP:WTA#Myth and Legend is pretty clear that we shouldn't call one faith's account a Creation Myth whilst giving another faith's account a term to use like "Creation Narrative" not to mention the slippery slope towards wp:RNPOV when concessions seem to be given to one faith over others. The battle over the term Creation Myth has already been extensively fought on the Creation Myth page. I don't understand why we can't just take their solution (A detailed definition of Creation Myth so it's not confused with the informal use of the word "myth") and leave it at that. If it's good enough for the main page of Creation Myths there's no reason it's not good enough for one of the many faith specific pages regarding Creation Myth. Nefariousski (talk) 05:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposed to a footnote (though I dislike them being used this way), but I am opposed to Wikipedia trying to introduce new terminology and proscribe usage of it in articles. Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To some people Creation according to Genesis is a specific page related to the "main" page Creation myth, but to other people it is a specific page related to the "main" page of Bible, or Genesis, etc. Neither view is the one "right" view. What is more, readers of the "Creation myth" page are all the more likly to know already (or re-learn) this formal jargon of comparative religon, etc.
A "detailed definition" of Creation myth unmuddies only if it is read (and not too long to overwelm the sentence it is in). "Creation narrative" is a perfectly clear gloss (short definition) that can be supplemented with detail in either a note or in the next sentence.
Since the term "Creation myth" will not be understood in the formal meaning by many people (and be seen as POV by them, even if it is not according to the formal meaning), I would advocate the same solution for articles on any faith's account of Creation; there is not any unfair advovation of a faith or specific faiths over others. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 06:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is silly. We can't avoid terms like that. The term theory has a similar problem, yet is unquestioningly used in scientific articles regardless. Now, if you're worried about people seeing us as non-neutral since we use the term myth, what about the other side of the coin? People who see us as avoiding the term? Are they immune from detecting neutrality in the same way? In cases like this, we must fall back on reliable sources. In this case, myth has been demonstrated to be mainstream term, and avoiding it falls foul of WP:NPOV, in particular, WP:RNPOV. Attach a footnote if you think it really will help (though I would argue clicking a more prominent wikilink creation myth would be easier for the reader, and this use may fall foul of our "no disclaimer" policies). Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This would not avoid the term "Creation myth."

This would not introduce new terminology, as "creation narrative" is a description. So it is also not ment be used over-and-over to replace of "Creation myth" throughout the article. Likewise would also work to use a other descriptions, such as "account of Creation."

Creation myth has not been demonstrated to be mainstream term. It may be a mainstream term among religious scholars, but it is still the jargon thereof, and not a mainstream term/meaning for Wikipedia readers. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 09:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Children's books, general references, etc, use the term without issue. It is a mainstream term. Just like the term theory. Ben (talk) 09:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, on the last point, rather than defer to a community of experts on a topic that we're writing an article about in an encyclopaedia, we should adopt some amorphous "mainstream" terminology instead? That doesn't seem particularly clever. When I consult a reference work to learn something, I expect it to conform to the relevant conventions for that topic. If there are jargon issues that need dealing with, I'm happy to follow footnotes (or even hyperlinks to articles that explain the jargon), but I'd be nonplussed if different terminology was used instead. Especially if said terminology was not supported by hyperlinked articles in the same encyclopaedia. Among other things, using "myth" instead of "narrative" (which I, personally, interpret as "subjective quasi-fiction") provides an excellent learning opportunity for readers on the formal use of language by scholars. To do otherwise is akin to (shudder) "political correctness gone mad". --PLUMBAGO 10:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Underhanded tactics

RfC isn't a numbers game, Afaprof01. Calling in a bunch of buddies who offer the same easily refutable arguments only makes it look like POV pushing. Cheers, Ben (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh look, they even have a term for it: Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking. Ben (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is NOT canvassing, unless he tells people which way to vote. He did not say anything to that effect, hence no canvassing has taken place. History2007 (talk) 08:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been told which way to vote and I think it was quite thoughtful to get my opinion on the debate. As it happens I think on balance that "myth" or "creation myth" is ok and the right term to use. I think the mistake is to assume that "myth" is a bad thing - implying it's a fairytale or something. Instead we need to get into the head of those in civilisations long gone who understood the role of myth simply as a way to try and explain or deepen our understanding of an underlying truth or an unfathomable mystery. In this case the mystery of where we came from as humans. Myth can therefore be a beautiful thing if considered in the right way. Empiricism is important but trying to explain every part of what we are as human beings through empiricism alone can leave us unsatisfied. Myth therefore is an attempt to make us make sense or order out of what can seem to be pure disorder or randomness. It would be a mistake to see the creation of the world in 7 days as true. It isn't - it can't ever be true - we are too rational for that. But it's someone's attempt to demonstrate that God was in some way behind this strange event called creation; beyond human comprehension. The greek and roman myths serve a similar purpose. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Ithink what each of us believes is beside the point. This article should summarize the contents of the book, not pass judgment on it. History2007 (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't accuse Afaprof01 of telling people how to vote, I accused him of "an attempt to sway consensus by selectively notifying editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view or opinion (which may be determined, among other ways, from a userpage notice, such as a userbox, or from user categorization), and thus encouraging them to participate in the discussion." --Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is clear that there was no canvassing, as the article there states. History2007 (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uhh, which article says that? The text Ben quoted is directly from WP:CANVASS. You don't have to tell someone "Oh, and vote this way" for it to be canvassing. He went out and tapped the shoulders of people who'd argued here and elsewhere for his side of the argument, and no one else. That's canvassing. --King Öomie 13:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, anyone can quote, e.g. the next paragraph says: Posting a friendly notice on users' talk pages in order to inform editors on all "sides" of a debate (e.g., everyone who participated in a previous deletion debate on a given subject) may be appropriate under certain circumstances on a case-by-case basis. And I had participated in similar debates on Good Friday. So it was not canvassing in my case in any case. As was fo rseverla other people who had participated in similar debates. History2007 (talk) 13:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He only alerted people who'd previously debated AGAINST including the term "creation myth". I don't know how I can be more clear. He did not alert anyone who'd debated FOR using it. This is the definition of vote stacking. --King Öomie 18:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No he didn't, he didn't alert me! I feel quite hurt. PiCo (talk) 03:34, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Only alerted ≠ alerted all. Ben (talk) 03:56, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, he did alert me, only it wasn't by posting on my talk page – he sent me a wik-email.
-Garrett W. {☎ ✍} 23:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to set the record straight, Afaprof01 did notice me. However, King Öomie is wrong in stating "He only alerted people who'd previously debated AGAINST including the term 'creation myth'" and "He went out and tapped the shoulders of people who'd argued here and elsewhere for his side of the argument, and no one else." I have never taken a position on any talk page or RFC on this issue, or any issue related to Genesis or Creation Myths. Afaprof01 would have little to go on to divine what my position would be. I suspect he noticed me because I have edited several articles about Christian topics. This seems entirely appropriate. I would encourage King Öomie to verify the facts before making such attacks in the future and to consider WP:SORRY. Novaseminary (talk) 05:09, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two cents

I have contributed to several of the Creationism articles, and to this specific article over the last couple of years. Here are my two cents. I am not a young earth creationist, I accept that the Earth is 5 billion years old. Nevertheless I object to the unqualified use of the phrase "creation myth". This is a religious text that is regarded as a divine scripture by about 30% of the Earth's population. As such it does not fit into the same category as Enuma Elish and other dead pieces of literature. I do not see why it cannot be called a creation account or creation story. These are neutral terms that can be interpreted as implying fact or fiction by those who wish. The insistence of calling it a "creation myth" seems to me to be a cynical attempt to imply that the story is fiction. Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:13, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It need not be unqualified. Suggestions have been made above that a footnote is added so that the use of the term is clear. Furthermore, we already hyperlink to creation myth, so any inquisitive reader can read up on the use of language here (and find out about all of the other, mutually exclusive creation myths that exist). Regarding your alternative suggestions, "account" implies something written by a witness (which even the YECs don't claim; or do they?), while "story" clearly implies fiction to me. Faced with this, and the fact that we're aiming to capture something of a scholarly subject here, we should defer to mainstream expert terminology. That doesn't mean, of course, that we can't qualify with footnotes and hyperlinks to other articles that illuminate things further. Anyway, that's my two cents (which I seem to have spent many times over on this particular topic). --PLUMBAGO 10:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think what each of us believes is beside the point. This article should summarize the contents of the book, not pass judgment on it. History2007 (talk) 13:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Err, isn't describing it as a "story" passing judgement on it? You might think not, but I do (and vice versa, of course). Hence why I suggested just using default academic language instead of importing "mainstream" (whatever that is) language. I'm well aware that our views (yes, both of us) are beside the point. --PLUMBAGO 13:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Let us just summarize the book without passing any judgment on it. Just say Book X says Y. As to whether Y is correct or not, we shall not judge. History2007 (talk) 13:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, but you persist in interpreting the use of "myth" as passing a very particular judgement when, as is clear from its academic definition, it is not. This use is merely describing the nature of the contents of a particular book, and is distinguishing this (yes, in a dry, academic way) from fiction, biography, etc. Said contents should be described as something, and since this is meant to be an encyclopaedia, I suggest that the scholarly "creation myth" fits the bill (not least because of our need to conform to WP:RS). Among other things, I say this because I do not anticipate any description (short of "the Truth") being acceptable to some readers. Anyway, it looks like agreeing to disagree is how this is going to wind up. --PLUMBAGO 13:54, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The public does not interpret it as an academic definition, but mostly views it as a term which means "untrue". Hence it is a label, assigned by one group. Best solution: No label, no judgment. History2007 (talk) 13:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's irrelevant even with citations. Policy is clear, we go with the academic term. If you disagree with that policy, argue against it THERE. Violating it here is just that- a violation of policy (and possibly WP:POINT). --King Öomie 14:02, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Policy does not say that at all, clearly or otherwise. In fact it says the opposite, requiring the lede to be written in non-technical language and discouraging the use of the word myth in cases where its meaning might be taken to be the informal one. Story, account and narrative are all much better terms here. DJ Clayworth (talk) 19:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RNPOV, the policy, trumps MOS:INTRO, the style guideline. The one that specifically points out that it will have exceptions. WP:NPOV is not optional. --King Öomie 13:49, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain how "Creation according to Genesis is the account of the creation of the world and of the first man and woman as found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible." violates NPOV. --agr (talk) 14:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Wikipedia articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader. Conversely, editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." -WP:RNPOV The bolded section represents the reason this argument is taking place ("Our religious sensibilities are offended, think of the children"), and its refutation. --King Öomie 15:00, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No one is saying the term "creation myth" should be excluded from the article. However nothing in the NPOV policy you quote says technical terms must be used in the first sentence of an article, while the LEDE guideline says they shouldn't. And as I've pointed out previously, there is scholarly debate over whether Genesis contains one creation myth or two, so the current version is inaccurate as well. --agr (talk) 15:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People are saying that, and those that do are rightly referred to the NPOV policy. I disagree with your assessment of creation myth as a technical term. I think it's fine for this encyclopedia - at about the same level as the term theory, for instance. That the term is so fundamental and descriptive of this article is why I think we should use it straight up. That is, if I stumble across an article about a creation myth, I simply want to know that in the first sentence. In general, if I stumble across an article Y that is a representative of X, I want to know that straight away. Is this article about a book? A mathematician? etc. As far as the debate you're alluding to, you realise the version you quoted suffers from the same problem, right? Ben (talk) 15:36, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you are right that some editor does want the term "creation myth" excluded entirely, but my understanding is that the current argument is about the introductory sentence. I poked around the last 500 versions of the article and haven't found one where the term "creation myth" did not occur somewhere. Perhaps a good example is this version [6], which is the last before the lede was changed to its current form. It says "The Genesis creation story is comparable with other Near Eastern creation myths." It's also in an info box and the see also section. I would support mentioning the term in the intro, perhaps after the textual summary, say, "Scholars debate whether the story consist of one creation myth or two." "Theory" has both a technical and non-technical meaning and this can cause problems in a lede. Note that our article evolution does not use the word "theory" until the fourth paragraph of the into and then treats it extremely gingerly. Finally, I would assert: {people who know what a creation myth is} ∩ {people who don't know Genesis contains a creation myth} = Ø. What does "the account of the creation of the world and of the first man and woman as found in the first two chapters of the Book of Genesis of the Hebrew Bible" fail to convey? --agr (talk) 17:02, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The 'current' argument morphed into the lede discussion, yes, after individuals realized they weren't getting the phrase removed wholesale (though some still fail to grasp this). --King Öomie 17:17, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked over the discussion page and I don't see that. Maybe it's in the archives somewhere. Perhaps this is a place where we can move forward. Can we at least all agree that the issue now is what the first sentence should say?--agr (talk) 17:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason to change the wording from what it is now. The meaning of "Creation Myth" is self-evident, and per WP:RNPOV, the formal meaning is used. Changing it to something more... sympathetic would be nothing less than pandering. Confused or not, every single person who visits this page and sees "creation myth" knows what it means. (And no, that meaning is not "ATHEIST CRUSADE, RALLY THE TROOPS"). --King Öomie 17:58, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:AVOID#Myth and legend: "When using myth in a sentence in one of its formal senses, use care to word the sentence to avoid implying that it is being used informally, for instance by establishing the context of sociology, mythology or religion." ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add, your evolution example is not a good one since that article is not about a theory. It's why I chose the general relativity article as an example a few times - it's about a theory and it's an FA. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Another proposal

Let's be honest, I find the use of footnotes unwieldy. Let's not forsake simplicity and clarity. How about replacing the opening sentence with this (or some variation):

Creation according to Genesis refers to the text found in the opening two chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Hebrew Bible. This text is regarded as a creation myth by scholars,Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). and as a religious account of creation by Christians and Jews.

or alternatively

Creation according to Genesis refers to the text found in the opening two chapters of the book of Genesis, the first book of the Hebrew Bible. This text is regarded as a creation myth by scholars,Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). and has religious significance for Christianity and Judaism.

Tonicthebrown (talk) 10:19, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm,

General relativity refers to a culmination of ideas by Albert Einstein. The ideas are considered a scientific theory by scholars, and has scientific significance for people who like to debunk works of science fiction (damn you Phil Plait, damn you!!).

Yeah, I dunno, I think I prefer the current version. Look everyone, we're talking about a creation myth. This fact is indisputable and transcends the scholars (hello polarisation). The creation myth article is highly relevant and worth reading (and improving if you can) given that this article is a representative of that topic. Ben (talk) 11:05, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To make this a little more explicit, Wikipedia describes what things are according to WP:WEIGHT (another subset of WP:NPOV). As an example, we have general relativity. Another is the evolution article, which does not polarise itself by saying scholars think evolution is blah, it simply explains what evolution is per reliable sources. Nothing less can be expected from this article, and the sensibilities of a few editors do not make the slightest difference to that. Ben (talk) 05:40, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of this new proposal to remove the suggestion that says that peoples beliefs are wrong by calling it a definate myth. I personally would have been fine with the replacement of the word myth with belief. But ayway I personally will willingly accept this proposal. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a debate that surely will not cease as long as the word "myth" remains. Is it really absolutely necessary? Yes, I know that "creation myth" is a scholarly term and it is not the same as "myth". It is nonetheless always going to be seen as somewhat incendiary to certain people; particularly observant Jews and Christians. On one hand the term "creation myth" can be viewed as linguisticly correct, and therefore has every right to be used. On the other, leaving it in place is certain to provide debate, reverts, edit wars, and perhaps even vandalism ad infinitum. My opinion is that for the greater good of Wikipedia in general, the word myth should not be used here.Mk5384 (talk) 09:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis creation account

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Just like any other article on any other subject this article is subject to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. The article is on the subject of the Genesis creation myth, but it (Genesis) is considered the "living word of God" by some people. It is highly disingenuous to foist upon the general reader the untenable notion that "myth" does not mean "myth." Whether used "formally" or "informally" a similar notion is conveyed. Scholars and academics do not just happen to choose a term that conveys "falsehood" in its "informal" application. This is by design, because "scholars and academics" examine a multiplicity of religious and pseudo-religious explanations for the origin of existence. These explanations are at odds with one another, and none of them hold up to scientific scrutiny. The term "myth" fulfills the needs in this context just as it fulfills similar requirements in so-called "informal" contexts. Neutral point of view calls for the representation of all significant countervailing views. Thus the veracity and literal factuality of Genesis warrants a place in this article. Though the title may be the Genesis creation myth, elsewhere in the article reference should be made to for instance the "Genesis creation account." The "account" of creation according to Genesis represents a neutral point of view. It neither attributes "falsehood" to itself nor does it assert that it is unambiguously the final word on the subject of "creation." Bus stop (talk) 05:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A word of encouragement. Thanks, Bus stop, for joining this debate. I happen to completely agree with you, and you state it very well. Please don't get discouraged and give up. Just know you are not alone in this! Thanks. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are perfectly correct when you say "[j]ust like any other article on any other subject this article is subject to Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy," but the rest of your post indicates that it's likely you haven't read, or properly understood, what you're quoting. The word neutral here doesn't mean "it sounds good to group X", it means neutral with respect to reliable sources. That is, we write articles that are consistent with and in proportion to reliable sources on a given topic. What you, me, or anyone else likes is irrelevant. Finally, please read the FAQ at the top of this page. Cheers, Ben (talk)

Bus stop: The WP:NPOV policy contains a portion specifically dealing with religion: WP:RNPOV. Have you read it? Gabbe (talk) 08:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The argument in favour of using the phrase "creation myth" is basically this: Wikipedia articles follow what academics and other experts on their respective topic do (see WP:SOURCES). We don't try to best them by "improving" their terminology. The fact that terms they use may be offensive to readers is not an argument against using such terms, since Wikipedia is not censored (see WP:CENSOR). Therefore, the word "account" is not neutral, but the term "creation myth" is. And finally, the view that Genesis is not only true but literally true is held by only a very small minority. Not only among scholars and scientists, but even within Christianity and Judaism. Because of this, the "Genesis is literally true" viewpoint might not deserve mention in this article at all, per WP:DUE. But that is irrelevant, since this article doesn't say or imply that Genesis is not to be taken literally. Gabbe (talk) 08:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What you say is not true because 1 130 000 000 members of the roman catholic church share the catholic truth which believe the creation documentation is literaly true (CIC Can. 750 -§ 1). So this realy should be mentioned. --Templeknight (talk) 11:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please. Roman Catholicism holds Genesis to be religiously true, not literally. And the number of Catholic adherents who do hold the creation in Genesis to be literally true is fringe.

BTW I was raised a Roman Catholic. CUSH 11:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Templeknight: Roman Catholics are among those Christians that almost exclusively assert that Genesis is not to be interpreted literally. See for example The Gift of Scripture. Gabbe (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true. It is the law of church that orers to take bible literaly and everybody that doesnt is been considered a heretic. And related to your link just have a look at Dei_Verbum. And I guess wikipedia is not the place to judge how many catholics realy believe in the catholic teaching. And even this discussion is unnecessary since it is a fact that 1 1300 000 000 people are members of a church that publicly teaches that the bible is literaly true. For this reason it should not be said that this is a believe of a small group and doesnt deserve to be mentioned --Templeknight (talk) 14:32, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what "orers" are, but Dei Verbum explicitly requires that "the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended", paying attention to such things as literary forms, historical context, and overall message. As a relevant examples, the Catholic Church has for a quite a while now accepted evolution as true and compatible with Genesis. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dont mix things up right now .... ofcourse catholic church accepts the scientific research about the creation and the evolotion theory took its main parts out of creation science: Mendelian_inheritance and Big_Bang --Templeknight (talk) 21:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There may be legitimacy for the term "myth" in this context. But you are using it to hit people over the head with it, figuratively speaking. It needs to be placed in its context so that the reader is presented with a full and evenhanded picture of extant approaches to the entity called "Genesis." It is a literary work that provides a cornerstone of religions. There is no need to endorse falseness or veracity in relation to that entity. And it is not educational to present material without explanation. One should not have to look to the "FAQ" to comprehend the article. There is a place in the article for the verbose spelling out of the academic usage of the term "myth," as well as any distinctions that may be deemed necessary between any "formal" and "informal" use of the term "myth." All of this should be sourced and all of this should be in plain English right in article space. No reader of the article should need a familiarity with WP:RNPOV to comprehend the article. WP:RNPOV exists to spell out problems that have been encountered and how to approach them. But the article itself should not be cryptic, relying on a circumlocutious path to the FAQ and to WP:RNPOV. The article is supposed to elucidate. The article is not supposed to muddy the issue or pull the wool over anyone's eyes. The word "myth" is the same word in the two usages in which you are claiming it is used. It is therefore incumbent on you, the editor, to explain the apparent contradiction in the two meanings, or at least the two usages, of the word. This should be thoroughly done in article space. Bus stop (talk) 15:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uh huh. So do you advocate as in depth a discussion of the term theory in every scientific article that uses the term? Or do you think a wikilink to an article that discusses the term theory should suffice in the event a reader is curious? Cheers, Ben (talk) 15:41, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As soon as a theory is prooven it is not longer called a theory so this question doesnt hit reality. --Templeknight (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Scientific theories are never proven, but we're way off topic here. Cheers, Ben (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Templeknight: Ok, this last comment disqualified you from the discussion. You are scientifically illiterate. Either come up with substantial sources or leave this article and its discussion alone. CUSH 16:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I dont need to bring sources for this because this is not the topic of our discussion...... and you are leading us far away ..... --Templeknight (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you claim that Genesis is an actual account, you are the one to present the sources that feature the evidence for it. Otherwise it remains what it is: a myth. Both in academic terms as well as in common vernacular. CUSH 21:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Right now you gave the proof we needed ..... so you call it myth because you dont think its true ! This is your POV and has not to be used in a wikipedia article ! Do we realy need to discuss this more ? Its very obvious now isnt it ? --Templeknight (talk) 21:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

CUSH is speaking for himself and is not necessarily representing Wikipedia in general. Gabbe (talk) 21:53, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes thats right but it is a very good example that shows how many people take it ! So can you give me any reason why this should be used ? --Templeknight (talk) 22:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and should treat topics the way standard works of reference do. Take the New Catholic Study Bible, for example. This is what they have to say regarding "myth" and "Genesis":

The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical forms of writing. Myth, in this case, must not be understood to mean that the events told were fictional or untrue. A myth is a profoundly true statement which speaks to universal aspects of life and reality. It is a statement whose meaning rises above time and space. Although biblical myths were influenced by other mythical statements of the ancient world, they are used by the biblical writers to express history's relationship to God. They point to history's origins at the moment of the world's creation. They speak of the beginnings where history touches eternity, and, therefore, to moments which cannot be historically described. Myth is thus essential to biblical faith. We do the Scriptures a serious injustice if we read myth as though it were history. Such a tendency must be resisted along with the opposite tendency to read biblical history as though it were mythical. By reading the early chapters of Genesis with sensitivity to poetic symbol and imagery, we can easily avoid such temptations.
— New Catholic Study Bible, Saint Jerome Edition, Literary Forms of the Bible, pages 1360-61

Wikipedia puts "Genesis" and "creation myth" in the same sentence because that's what reliable sources do. Gabbe (talk) 22:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gabbe, I believe you once suggested putting into the lead some scholarly description of "myth" in this context. Yours is certainly scholarly, and there's more below in my Hyers quote. Do you think we might draft something "scholarly" now for the lead? ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence "The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical forms of writing" states very clearly without any doubt that it is not a myth. So this supports my argumentation. --Templeknight (talk) 22:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It supports your WHAT??? ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Templeknight: If by "myth" you mean "false story", then I agree. The text I quoted doesn't say that Genesis is a "myth". But neither does this Wikipedia article. The text I quoted, just like this article, uses the word "myth" in a different context. Gabbe (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to |Dr. Conrad Hyers, professor of comparative mythology and the history of religions:

Unfortunately, myth today has come to have negative connotations which are the complete opposite of its meaning in a religious context. A myth is often spoken of as being the equivalent of superstition and deletion, a fabrication, even a form of propaganda. We refer to the Nazi myth of Aryan supremacy or the male chauvinist myth of masculine superiority or the medical myth of Laetrile. Myths are falsehoods which need to be dispelled, and the dispeller is usually understood to be scientific and historical truth. If religion is associated with myth, it is the mission of the scientific and historical method to rid the world of its fantasies and fallacies. ─Conrad Hyers, PhD. The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science.’’ Atlanta, John Knox, 1984. ISBN 978-0804201254

The old adage says, "Perception is in the eye of the beholder." Here is a well-respected theologian-author whose expertise extends to comparative mythology and the history of religions. If anyone should know what connotations are conjured up by the term "myth" (and he's writing about creation myth), it would be someone with his credentials. And he claims what many of us have been claiming on these Talk pages: "myth" is offensive to adherents of Christianity and Judaism who revere Genesis, and the many other places in the Bible that affirm the Genesis creation account, as somehow sacred.

We label the outside of some shipping containers with the words, "Please Handle with Care." That's all most of us are asking in this and similar articles. Please Handle with Care. Call it a creation myth, but do so with literary awe rather than arrogance, with deference rather than disdain. There is tremendous precedence for introducing the article(s) as "the biblical accounts of creation in Genesis." "Account" is neutral. Next, it literary class or genre is called a "creation myth." Then, in deference to those possibly "poor ignoramus illiterates" who have a conditioned knee-jerk response to the word "myth" as always connoting fantasy and fiction and who are now flushed with indignation and want to change channels, we gently explain that it is a technical term without implication of accuracy or error.

Please remember that many of our readers approach this article with a predisposition of biblical inerrancy and biblical infallibility. According to that "unimpeachable resource" Wikipedia, "the term 'inerrancy' is often used by conservative theologians in all religions: in Judaism to refer to the Torah; in Christianity to refer to the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, also known to Christians as the Old and New Testaments; in Islam to refer to the Qur'an, and in other religions to refer to their own holy books."

Through the pages and pages of this Talk page, no one has ever given a sensible reason why the lead cannot (or must not) explain to the uninitiated that "creation myth" does not imply falsity.

The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article.
It should summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies
The lead should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article.
It should create interest in reading the whole article (not run a significant risk of offending those who revere the Bible as holy and sacred, incidentally which does not necessarily address the dimension of literal or figurative.

Thank you for your re-consideration of this most important point that obviously concerns many. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Please remember that many of our readers approach this article with a predisposition of biblical inerrancy and biblical infallibility." I doubt that. This is the English Wikipedia, which serves as the international Wikipedia. The number of people who maintain biblical inerrancy and biblical infallibility is restricted to the far right adherents of Protestant churches in the US and a handful of Catholics around the world. The official position of the major Christian churches, namely orthodoxy (Catholicism and Eastern orthodox churches, making up two thirds of Christianity), does not build on literal interpretations of the Creation story. Beliefs in strict biblical inerrancy and biblical infallibility are almost solely US American phenomena. CUSH 22:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Afaprof01: The question of whether the phrase "creation myth" is offensive or not might not be as relevant as you claim, since Wikipedia is not censored (WP:CENSOR). There have been countless discussions elsewhere about whether or not we should feature pictures of Muhammad in relevant articles here, which (arguably) is more offensive to millions of Muslims than the phrase "creation myth" is to millions of Christians. I can't remember there ever being riots and violence regarding the phrase "creation myth", for example. But trying to fit things in a spectrum of offence isn't going to get us anywhere. Anyway, in the Muhammad case, the consensus has long been that the usability of said images overrides the offence that they might cause among readers. The term "creation myth" is useful, since it connects with similar documents from other religions. And offensiveness issues aside, that it is an otherwise apt description does not seem to be in dispute. Why should we act differently in this case, and cater to the readers' possible sense of offence?

I think the "readers might not understand what we're trying to say" argument could be worthy of further discussion, so that we might reach a lead that not only exemplifies the highest standards of accuracy and concision but informativeness as well. But the whole "this is offensive" argument really is a dead end in my view. If we set out to not offend anyone, writing Wikipedia would become impossible. Gabbe (talk) 23:04, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As always, I truly appreciate your rebuttal and the considerate and scholarly way you write it. Would you consider joining in an effort to address the "readers might not understand what we're trying to say" issue? That's very valid and is backed up by both your recent citation and mine. There are others out there that are saying the same thing. The reason for the offense is incomplete or improper understanding of the technical definition. But it should be addressed from this perspective:

Further, there are things of which the mind understands one part, but remains ignorant of the other; and when ~~man is~~ one is [sic] able to comprehend certain things, it does not follow that he must be able to comprehend everything.─Maimonides

─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I support this within reason. There is no reason we can't offer a more or less complete expansion of the term creation myth in the very first sentence now. On the one hand the article title allows us to remain accurate and consistent with reliable sources while on the other hand the expansion of the term completely disambiguates it. Ben (talk) 00:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that debates on this page have gone through more circles than a whirling dervish. Honestly, I think we're in WP:BRD country now, as long as people remember that the "D" in "BRD" is not referring to edit summaries. Gabbe (talk) 16:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Creation according to Genesis

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

For most of its history, this article was called "Creation according to Genesis". This is a NPOV title. Calling it by a POV title and slapping on a FAQ that notes that this POV is shared among academics who share that POV is not the Wikipedia way. Wikipedia is not a science textbook. --Dweller (talk) 09:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think both "Creation according to Genesis" and "Genesis creation myth" are reasonably NPOV. I reflexively lean to support the "myth" variant, mostly because the arguments against it are so crappy. But I really think the old title is clearer and preferable (if only slightly). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes "Creation according to Genesis" is NPOV so we should change it back. --Templeknight (talk) 10:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both titles are fine, and frankly synonymous. However, the apposition "Genesis creation myth" strikes me as less than elegant English. Of course, another problem is that "Genesis" itself means "creation", the book's Greek name being taken from the fact that it contains the creation story. A more erudite title would be something like "Cosmogony narratives in Genesis" or "Creation stories in Genesis or similar.

I do appreciate that this isn't a honest debate about the best article title, but an ideologically fuelled dispute surrounding the interpretation of the term "myth". This is unfortunate, but as always, Wikipedia needs to make do with such contributions as it gets. --dab (𒁳) 12:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Sumerian creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Ancient Egyptian creation myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Mesoamerican creation myths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Pelasgian creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,
Tongan creation myth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
While I'm aware of WP:OTHERSTUFF, I fail to see what's NPOV about using the term 'Creation Myth' for every other specific article about these subjects, and then ousting it for the sake of a few editors who, weeks later, still can't pick up a dictionary. --King Öomie 13:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King Öomie — This is the English Wikipedia. Most of those articles that you have suggested above would find their native language to involve other than English. And their cultures are not generally speaking the cultures associated with the English speaking component of the world's population. There is is an impropriety in naming any of them as "myths" as doing so fails to represent the minority views that one can assume are probably found in at least a few reliable sources. It is a self-centered impetus that causes one to impose a view on other cultures and belief systems and NPOV is there to prevent this. NPOV allows for the representation of all significant views. The proper place for the addressing of perhaps conflicting views is in the body of the article proper. The title cannot possibly adequately address divergent views. And the first sentence of an article also cannot possibly adequately address a variety of perspectives that might exist concerning these creation narratives. "Genesis" is indeed native to the segment of the human population that the English Wikipedia addresses. But reliable sources show that a variety of views exist relative to its creation narrative. They deserve thorough treatment in the main body of the article. The word "myth" is the same word used in two different ways. This nuance has to be addressed in a way that apprises the reader of the knottiness of the issue we are tackling here. This is not an issue for the wise minds of the Wikipedia editors to resolve "behind closed doors." A contradiction is found in the two different uses of the word "myth." That ambiguity or contradiction disqualifies that word from appearing in either the title or even the introductory sentences of this article. If the reader is to be brought up to speed on the issue, it has to have a thorough airing out in the body of the article. There is no reason to promote one view at the expense of another and to do so inappropriately. That is colloquially referred to as point of view pushing. It serves no one's needs. The reader needs information. The reader doesn't need to be told what to think. Bus stop (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

90% of your comment is rendered null and void by the difference between 'Myth' (used here) and 'Creation Myth' (and the same goes for a really sad amount of comments on this page). The reader is not being told what to think. The reader is being presented reliable literary analysis courtesy of biblical scholars. --King Öomie 14:47, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King Oomie, there are equally, many thousands of "biblical scholars" who would seek to refute the notion that Creation is a "myth". Choosing which group of scholars is "correct" is not Wikipedia's role - it's POV. --Dweller (talk) 19:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to name any of them? Gabbe (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Genesis" does not state that Genesis is a myth. Genesis contains no words that convey that it is to be viewed figuratively, for instance. What it states, it states in an entirely straightforward manner. The source for the literal interpretation of Genesis is Genesis itself. Therefore the title should be agnostic on the issue of whether Genesis is literally true or only to be considered for instance as a metaphor for something else. Yes, you would be correct that there exists a school of thought out there that the narrative contained in Genesis might not be 100% accurate. But that is subject matter that should be taken up somewhere within the body of the article. That would be the proper place to introduce what may be a valid and reliably sourced notion of a "creation myth," as perhaps found in academic circles. But this should not be taken up in the title where its placement represents a peremptory negating of the subject matter of the article. Bus stop (talk) 20:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look at the comment immediately below this one. Your comment has no bearing on the topic at hand. We are in no way dealing with, or even referring to, whether or not Genesis is true, and I'm tired of explaining that 4-5 times to the SAME EDITORS. --King Öomie 21:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop: The view that Genesis should be interpreted literally is held by only a small minority, not only among Christians and Jews, but among Biblical scholars (both secular and religious), theologians, and other relevant sources. As such, detailing this "Genesis is literally true" viewpoint in this article could risk violating WP:UNDUE and other policies and guidelines. This article should focus on what mainstream scholars and experts think about the content of the first chapters of Genesis. We certainly don't have to remain "agnostic on whether Genesis is literally true" as that would go against WP:GEVAL. It's perfectly neutral for this article to say that Genesis is not literally true, just as it is completely neutral for the article "Earth" to say that the Earth is several billions years old, even though a lot of biblical literalists will disagree with that. Gabbe (talk) 21:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We're not seeking consensus to call Genesis a book of myths (he clarified for the 8,000th time). We're seeking consensus that Creation Myth is a widely-used, neutral, scholarly term for a supernatural story of the creation of the earth and/or life. --King Öomie 20:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

David Strauss's claim that many of the gospel narratives are mythical in character, and that "myth" is not simply to be equated with "falsehood" — have become part of mainstream scholarship.--Marcus Borg here + countless other reliable refs already cited on this page (including Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible) characterising this articles topic as myth. Consistency with the mainstream is Wikipedia's role - it's WP:WEIGHT. Cheers, Ben (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I support moving the title back to its original: "Creation According to Genesis." I cannot believe how quickly (and underhandedly) it was moved to this new title. The discussion is minimal, the voters are not a clear consensus. Move it back. 76.253.103.218 (talk) 22:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move back to Original: Yes 76.253.103.218 (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You posted this both here and below. Are you formally proposing to move this article? If so, you should at least keep the discussion in one place, and probably follow the procedure listed at WP:RM. Gabbe (talk) 23:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Myth/myth moved from User Talk page space

Archived comments that were moved here from an editor's talk page

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Moving this here; no need to discuss this article on my User Talk page Bus stop (talk) 12:44, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis creation myth

Regarding this edit, have you seen Talk:Genesis creation myth, in particular the FAQ on top of that page? Gabbe (talk) 13:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ful== February 2010 == Welcome to Wikipedia. I notice that you removed content from Book of Genesis. However, Wikipedia is not censored to remove content that might be considered objectionable. Please do not remove or censor information that is relevant to the article. You have the option to configure Wikipedia to hide images that you may find offensive. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Ben (talk) 13:26, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see Tillman has resumed his relentless POV-pushing on this subject. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:32, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some handy links for Bugs: WP:NPA, wiktionary:resume and wiktionary:relent. Cheers, Ben (talk) 13:51, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We've been through this many times. Tillman knows the most common use of "myth" is "fairy tale" and that's the POV he's pushing, under the guise of "scholarly". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:54, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

POV-pushing, guise... so sinister. It might behoove you to read ANY of the policies we've linked in the numerous debates. The most common, colloquial definition doesn't matter. --King Öomie 14:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop the 'pov-pushing' comments, BB. Kingoomieeiii is correct. Dougweller (talk) 15:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This particular article makes no allowance for neutral point of view. Is the Book of Genesis not considered as anything other than a "myth" or is that its only designation? Bus stop (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I support a neutral first sentence and Tillman does not. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:53, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To answer your question: If you're asking whether Genesis is considered a "myth", in the informal sense of "a false story", then the answer is no, at least not on Wikipedia. But this informal usage of the word "myth" is generally discouraged in articles. If you're asking whether part of Genesis is considered a "creation myth", in the formal sense of "a sacred narrative providing an account of how the world was created and came to be in its present form", then the answer is yes, this is what almost all Christians, theologians and biblical scholars consider the literary genre of Genesis to be. Talking about the Genesis creation myth in this sense is perfectly neutral, as we do the same thing to other creation myths, such as the Sumerian creation myth or the Ancient Egyptian creation myths. Treating Genesis differently from other religions would not, however, be neutral. Gabbe (talk) 18:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with the creation story article is that the creation myth information was already mentioned in the second sentence of the lead, but that wasn't good enough for Tillman, he wanted it in the first sentence, in order to bludgeon the user with the viewpoint that Genesis is a fairy tale. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:52, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you keep repeating that "fairy tale" line, you may start to believe that's actually what Creation myth means. Be careful. --King Öomie 18:56, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is what it means, to the average reader, as you and Tillman well know. You're wanting to hammer the reader over the head that that is the only viewpoitn. Tell me how that passes the neutrality standard? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:58, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With all the cranium violence in your metaphors, you'd think there'd be more traffic over at Migraine. It doesn't MATTER what the 'average reader' thinks it means^{[citation needed]}. Just as we don't use "penultimate" instead of "ultimate", despite what people think they know. Words and phrases have definitions. It would be starkly biased to choose whichever one the Christians like best over the one that actually fits, according to the people who know what they're talking about. --King Öomie 19:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're saying the same thing as Tillman, that you don't care what your readers think, because your POV is more important. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:42, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allow me to rephrase. I don't care what the reader's PRECONCEPTION is, and the scholarly definition is what will be presented, courtesy of WP:DUE. --King Öomie 20:15, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikpedia is an encyclopedia by the people for the people. You want a "scholarly" work, go work for Britannica or something. The first sentence saying it's strictly a myth is a biased viewpoint. Saying it's the narrative in the book of Genesis is an unbiased viewpoint. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. If you think that Wikipedia does not aim for academic accuracy you are mistaken. This is not a place to reflect or promote any people's gut feelings. The biblical Creation Myth is in no way different than that of the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Maya, or anybody else. Wikipedia does not give preference to any particular religion over other religions, contemporary or extinct. There is no special treatment for the Bible just because some folks currently adhere to it. CUSH 19:20, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a person. Ben (talk) 23:24, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stop splitting "creation" and "myth". It's one phrase. You change the meaning when you do that, and instantly start arguing a strawman. --King Öomie 20:28, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:VERIFY says that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Any religious source (for instance) that asserts that the Book of Genesis is literally true provides a "significant view," and consequently is deserving of consideration for inclusion. That is in accordance with WP:NEUTRAL. Bus stop (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Read through Talk:Genesis creation myth. And also, WP:RNPOV. --King Öomie 20:45, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A source that asserts that Genesis is literally true is not necessarily a "significant view". For a view to be significant it has to be asserted by a fair number of experts on the topic. For example, polls conducted by Gallup have found that about 16% of Germans, 18% of Americans and 19% of Britons believe that the Sun revolves around the Earth. [7] That alone does not make geocentrism a "significant view", since very few astronomers hold it to be true. Gabbe (talk) 21:51, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the truth is nothing that can be decided by counting the amount of people that think this way or that way .... "Such a tendency must be resisted along with the opposite tendency to read biblical history as though it were mythical. " – New Catholic Study Bible, Saint Jerome Edition, Literary Forms of the Bible, pages 1360-61 So can anybody explain me now why this word should be used since its very obvious wrong to use it this way ? --Templeknight (talk) 22:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All completely irrelevant! We're not calling bible stories myths. We're using the term "Creation Myth" to refer to said creation myth in the book of genesis. Once again, don't split 'creation' and 'myth'. 'Creation Myth' is a discrete term with a precise definition, one that does not cast judgement as to whether or not the story is true. I reject the notion (as does WP:RNPOV) that we should avoid the term simply because some easily-offended individuals don't know that. --King Öomie 04:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

moved material from my User Talk page to Article Talk page space Bus stop (talk) 12:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

the not mythical Genesis creation myth

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

"Such a tendency must be resisted along with the opposite tendency to read biblical history as though it were mythical. " – New Catholic Study Bible, Saint Jerome Edition, Literary Forms of the Bible, pages 1360-61

What is wrong with this ? Why did you delete this ? --Templeknight (talk) 14:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you assume the source means "Genesis" when it refers to "biblical history"? Gabbe (talk) 14:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I notice the word 'myth' there, without 'creation' in front of it. This is a different term with a different meaning. --King Öomie 14:35, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King Öomie — any reader would make the logical assumption that words stand on their independent meanings. It is unreasonable to expect readers to refer to a "FAQ" part of an article only to find out there exists a problem in reconciling how a word (myth) is used in a "formal" combination with another word (creation) and how that same word is used in other contexts. In order to enlighten a reader these issues should be sorted out in the body of the article. The name is misleading because the name of the article is the first thing a potential reader encounters. It is only later that they may possibly encounter the much ballyhooed "FAQ." Bus stop (talk) 14:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And they would be wrong. "Well, me and my friends think it should be called A, and we're offended by what we think the term B means. Nevermind what experts think". To go back to Ben Tillman's analogy, the technical definition of Theory continues to go unsaid in scientific articles (and article titles). Laymen don't know what it means (yourself included, above). This is not valid criteria for exclusion. The bar for readers learning things surely lies higher up than what two f*&#ing words mean when put together. --King Öomie 14:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No one said anything about being "offended." That is a word that you are using. But no one else to my knowledge has suggested "offense." Bus stop (talk) 14:55, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to my browser's handy search function, both Til Eulenspiegel and Afaprof01 have claimed that the term is offensive, about a dozen times each. Til additionally claimed that we were intentionally causing offense, presumably as part of an anti-religious agenda. IP editor 71.253.143.203 likened the term to a racial epithet. But I can see where you could make that mistake- this page has swollen to almost hilarious size with the same 3-4 fruitless arguments. --King Öomie 15:03, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop: By your argument readers would similarly assume that the "electoral college" is a college handing out degrees? Gabbe (talk) 14:56, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reinstate article's original and title" Creation According to Genesis

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move the page. A personal comment, I'm not sure how to bridge the gap here since I'm not sure either title is appropriate. Maybe something like Genesis and creation or something similar could address the POV issues and still provide a neutral position that both sides could support. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis creation myth → Creation according to Genesis — This is the article's original title. It was changed to its current title after being discussed by only a couple of editors. The old title, unlike the current one, is npov in many people's opinion. It also appears to be the consensus title (See posts above). — 76.253.103.218 (talk) 02:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To the reviewing admin: please note that opposition has come in the form of replies to what are essentially !votes in this section, and comments in the preceding sections. Cheers, Ben (talk) 02:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on another website, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Yes. I support this move. Plus years worth of talk page discussions support this. The current title reflects only a short discussion that lasted only a few days. 76.253.103.218 (talk) 22:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion lasted a week and was listed at WP:RM, which is standard procedure when requesting a potentially controversial move. Gabbe (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, I don't know what you mean by "years worth of talk page discussions". The section Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern) seems to be the first time that moving the article to "Genesis creation myth" has been mulled. Regardless, consensus can change. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I support this move. --Templeknight (talk) 22:16, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, remember that polling is not a substitute for discussion. If you want to argue in favour of changing the title, that's alright. But this isn't the place to just say "yes" or "no". Gabbe (talk) 22:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I support the return move back to Creation according to Genesis. Debating if, when, where and how "creation myth" goes in the article leaves room for options, explanations, opposing views. Placing it in the title locks it in, in some ways virtually closing debate. Further, as is, "creation myth" occupies two-thirds of the title. It is a creation account-narrative that still is revered by huge numbers of living people. Two (maybe three) major world Abrahamic religions' theologies have strong foundations in the Genesis theology. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's necessarily wrong with "closing debate"? Per WP:MNA, we are sometimes forced to opt for a path in writing articles that's bound be controversial and contentious. Furthermore, the fact that the present day followers of the Genesis creation myth are more numerous than the present day followers of the Ancient Egyptian creation myths is not an argument in favour of treating the two differently. WP:RNPOV says that all religions should be treated the same. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Creation According to Genesis is and has been the correct title. Grantmidnight (talk) 22:33, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explicate why you think that "Genesis creation myth" is an incorrect title? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is ridiculous that the title that is presently on the article negates the subject of the article. There can be points of view presented within the article, based on reliable sources, that the validity is highly in question. That would include the academic sources that use most prominently the term "myth" in connection with the story presented in Genesis. But nowhere in Genesis itself is there any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended. In the entire narration of the book of Genesis there is not one indication that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected.

Scientific evidence may cast an overwhelming amount of doubt on the veracity of the book, but the place for that doubt should not be in the title. The title should describe the subject of the article. I don't think the subject of this article is the "falseness" of the narrative contained in Genesis, or at least I hope that is not the subject of the article. If that is the subject of this article, then this article needs a major rewrite. Bus stop (talk) 23:01, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How is that relevant? Nowhere in Moby Dick is there "any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended", but we don't have to be vague over whether Moby Dick is literally true or not. Gabbe (talk) 23:06, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what your point is. Here is the title: Moby-Dick. Bus stop (talk) 23:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your claim is that In the entire narration of the book of Genesis there is not one indication that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected. Likewise, nothing in Moby Dick indicates that a figurative or a metaphorical interpretation is expected. Perhaps you'd prefer Greco-Roman mythology, which also doesn't explicitly claim to be figurative or metaphorical?

The point being, the story in Genesis doesn't have to say it's a creation myth to be a creation myth. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 23:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) My point is that your argument is irrelevant. What's wrong with having the title of a Wikipedia article negating its subject? Even if it were true that Genesis lacks "any indication that anything but a literal understanding of its material is intended", so what? That doesn't mean that it would be wrong of us to write this article in a manner that contradicts this view. As per WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, we should write articles in accordance with what reliable sources say, not what the subjects of our articles say. For example, it would be difficult to write an article about Kim Jong-il if we weren't allowed to contradict the subject. The only thing that matters is what academics, experts and scholars say about Genesis.

Regardless, this is a moot point. Talking about the "Genesis creation myth" does not "negate" Genesis in any way. Gabbe (talk) 23:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I completely concur with Bus stop's polemic comments. They represent the higher caliber of rational in-depth thinking and argument one would expect among well-read, scholarly-minded editors (which I hope we all are). ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hope away, but you know otherwise. One could be forgiven for associating the word ignorance, and possibly willful, to one side of this debate. This is an encyclopedia folks, please at least act like that's what you're trying to build. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:02, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Mythology" is used in a title when there is no logical alternative. In the case of Genesis, there is not only a logical alternative, but it is a contrivance to title an article this way: "Genesis creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

... what? "Logical alternative"? This statement makes no sense. How is it a contrivance when we have Māori creation myth, Greek mythology, Aztec mythology, Jewish mythology, Christian mythology, etc. Perhaps you'd prefer we merge this article into Jewish mythology, then? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 02:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I support this move. The article is about the account of creation in the book of Genesis. The word "account" is NPOV. The word "myth" is not. Words have connotations as well as denotations. We don't go around labeling individuals who were born out of wedlock as "bastards", even though the word is technically correct, because the word has a highly pejorative connotation, and everyone knows it. To have that in the title is highly POV and should not be allowed.

Since there are some who will argue that "account" is POV as well (and you know who you are), I'm not suggesting that it be used in the title either. But Creation according to Genesis is completely NPOV to everyone. You can't get more NPOV than that. - - Lisa (talk - contribs) 00:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa, we agree for once!! Yeah! ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[A neutral point of view] is not a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view.--WP:NPOV. We use the terminology used in reliable sources on the topic, not sanitize (read: bias) the topic. It's as simple as that. Please read the policy you're quoting from, ok? Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa: Neutrality (per WP:RNPOV) means treating all religions the same. Treating one religious document differently from others is not neutral. As such, calling this article "Creation according to Genesis", while simultaneously not opposing the article title Sumerian creation myth, is not neutral. Consistency is neutral, inconsistency is not. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please re-read─as openmindedly as possible─User:Bus stop's logic in the above comments. I don't know this user and her/his recent comments are my first introduction. There is a lot of logic and rationale to the appeals. No one has shown the courtesy or dignity to debate this user's points maturely. It seems to me that when someone tries really hard to get us back to points of practical logic, they might as well blow into the wind. I'm not calling for agreement with his rationale, but for rational, logical, polite, intelligent rebuttal, partial agreement, or consensus. We have become totally fixated on "myth" for so long that we cannot see the forest for the trees.

The insistence on taking up 2/3 of the title with "creation myth" strongly implies what the article is about, and "Genesis" becomes almost an afterthought. It seems to me that "we" editors have illustrated that even among sophisticated folks (like us), there is not general agreement or understanding of the definition of "creation myth." I read an article today that says it conjures up images of the Zû-Bird and Myth-Legends of "pagans manipulating their nature deities by their magical words and mimetic ritual of the creation myth." Another author says that despite similarity in literary form and in rudimentary content, the biblical account radically differs from the creation myths of the ancient Near East in its theological stance. The creation myths are stories about numerous gods and goddesses personifying cosmic spaces or forces in nature. They are nature deities.

We have put form over substance. We can smugly say people should just look it up in a dictionary, but they shouldn't have to. If it is a word that is not in our vocabulary, it is logical to stop and look it up. But both words─"creation" and "myth"─are very much in our English vocabulary (and this is English Wikipedia). Seriously, how many people would logically think that when the two words are put together, they have a unique meaning that neither of them has separately? And if they do look up "creation myth," they will immediately be confronted with personalities combining divine spirit and cosmic matter in an eternal coexistence. Thus the sun was a god and the moon was a god. Even Akhenaten, the so-called first monotheist, never conceived of Aten, the sun god, any differently. He distinguished himself by selecting only one force of nature and, of course, never could find a following. After reading such as that, what predisposition can we assume our reader might have about creation according to Genesis, something that whether it's literal or figurative or even fictional has become a major part of the theological foundation of three world religions: the Abrahamic religions.

Please let's consider (1) Creation according to Genesis; and (2) delay mention of "creation myth" to paragraph 2 where we fully explain what we mean by "creation myth"─taking all ambiguity out of it. To use something this volitile before we get a chance to disambiguate it seems really foolish to me. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 01:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus stop's comments have been thoroughly debunked, not just in this section but in earlier sections too. Your vocabulary argument has been debunked more times than I can count now, a quick search for the term theory throughout this talk page is likely to give quite a few such debunkings. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Afaprof01: If the problem with Genesis creation myth is that "creation myth takes up 2/3 of the title" and that "Genesis becomes almost an afterthought", then Creation according to Genesis would make "Genesis" only one quarter of the title. That's even more of an "afterthought". Also, I don't see why the word "creation myth" should be limited to describing non-monotheistic creation myths. And lastly, I think that most people can understand that when you put two words together you might get a new word, possibly with a different meaning. Few English speakers will think that "to understand something" means to be standing beneath something. However, I fully support you when you say that we should explain what "creation myth" means in this article. But that does not necessitate moving the article. Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is not in numbers: Just to summarise: the above comments generally rely on gross misunderstandings WP:NPOV, false claims on behalf of WP:NPOV, or appeals to emotion. Reliable sources have been quoted several times, including reliable sources on what is considered mainstream, and policy has been cited faithfully, all showing support for the status quo. Cheers, Ben (talk) 01:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I support this move. I did not see any discussion at all on the article renaming. One editor just did it without discussion, as far as I recall. ^ross ^nixon 01:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes. I see the 3-4 day discussion section. It was not obviously titled as an article rename... maybe why I don't recall it. ^ross ^nixon 01:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, the debate was open for a week (per WP:RM), and the section was titled Requested move (as a way to resolve every reasonable concern). Is your argument that we should move the article back because the move request was improperly conducted? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I support this move. It seems certain editors are now developing a warped or slippery definition of the word "consensus". POV Litmus tests should not apply in determining whose views qualify as part of "consensus". Furthermore, there are many decades worth of published sources of many theologians objecting to any definition of "myth" being applied specifically to Genesis. I realize that some editors here subscribe to Bultmann - who some decades ago proposed expanding the conventional academic definition of "myth" to include the Hebrew Bible, even while openly conceding the pejorative use of the term. But not all theologians have ever agreed with Bultmann on this by any means. The POV of these wikipedia editors - partial and passionate as it is - cannot trump all those published sources who explicitly disagree that it is a myth. Rather according to NPOV policy we must use neutral or compromise terms, and then use the article to explain exactly who calls it a myth, who does not ,and why, without endorsing either party. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus title? Hardly. "only a couple of editors" have requested changing this back. I have a counter proposal: merge this article into Jewish mythology, which is what it actually is. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 02:56, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Til Eulenspiegel: Would you care to provide the names of some of these "many theologians" here? Gabbe (talk) 07:40, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What - again? Okay, I will start a new section below Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All of those sources seem to deal with the term "myth" rather than "creation myth" per se. Apart from that, a couple of the sources are more almost a hundred years old (hardly reflecting recent scholarship). A number of them reject the term "myth" because that would mean "comparing Christianity with other religions", which is not a valid argument on Wikipedia. Wikipedia's neutrality policies say that we can't treat one religion differently from another. Several sources explicitly say that the term "myth" is common in biblical scholarship, and some of the sources seem to attack the term "myth" based on their belief in Genesis being literally true — a tiny minority viewpoint Wikipedia shouldn't be catering to. Scholars might have several reasons to object to the term "myth", but not all those reasons are valid arguments on Wikipedia. We can't base our choice of title on sources that base their arguments on principles that stand in contrast with WP:NPOV. Gabbe (talk) 13:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And once again, a significant POV of many theologians is sumamrily brushed aside and overruled by an authoritative-sounding wikipedia editor for a variety of specious reasons. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't mean be brusque, or to "brush aside or overrule" that list, and I'm sorry if it came out that way. Its an interesting and seemingly relevant list and I intend to have a more detailed look and a lengthier commentary on it when I get the time. Gabbe (talk) 14:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Scholarly term should be used. Consistent with Creation myth and Chinese creation myth. THF (talk) 04:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Scholarly term should be used. Consistent with Creation myth and Chinese creation myth. BTW "Creation according to Genesis" says that Creation is factual and that Genesis reports it. Such a claim is unacceptable as a judgment made by Wikipedia. CUSH 04:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically, that is the exact semantic opposite of what "according to" means in English. The purpose of "according to" is to ascribe the notion to where it originates, NOT to endorse it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Til. Cush's statement is nonsensical. The Book of Genesis deserves the right to stand on its own as an opinion (surely its "age" and longevity deserves that). That's what this article should present -- "according" to Genesis. Underneath (that is, in the body of the article) comes our modern beliefs as to whether or not Genesis' "opinion" stands or falls. That is scholarly, and that's what we need here on Wikipedia. Cheers, SAE (talk) 13:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Genesis is a primary source, and as such should only be used with care. "Genesis says so" can't really be invoked in a debate like this. That is, we can't use Genesis alone as a base for our decision on whether to title this article "Genesis creation myth" or not. We need to look at what reliable secondary sources say on the topic. Gabbe (talk) 14:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand this article. Genesis as a primary source was never used as a "reliable" source: It is the source being anaylzed! Therefore, "Creation according to Genesis." That's the purpose of this article from the beginning. Changing the title (as has been done) is completely nonsensical. That's like having an article analyzing "Coke's view on softdrink's" (in order to analyze the company's view) and having someone later change the title to, "Coke's misinformation on soft-drinks." (in other words, make one half of the argument's conclusion of the article as the title) The debate should be in the body of the article, and not the title. As it is, it is pov. SAE (talk) 14:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Scholarly and mainstream term (supported by mainstream references likes Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible and Marcus Borg's note about it actually being mainstream) should be used. This is also in line with WP:NPOV (in particular WP:RNPOV) and WP:WTA#Myth_and_legend and the various X creation myth articles this encyclopaedia has already established (for a list of some, see the above section). Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I support this move. --Templeknight (talk) 11:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this is a discussion, not a ballot. And if it were a ballot you would not be permitted to vote twice. Gabbe (talk) 12:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I Support this move. Some scholarly systems use myth to describe Christianity, but this is fairly recent. Many scholarly systems still do not - it depends on the bias of the editor/publisher. One thing is clear: "myth" still has the definition in every dictionary that it is "an unfounded or false notion." You can argue, however every person reading the word "myth" has this in their mind. That's the tradition use of the word, and that's our cultural use of the word. Until that is completely gone, the word does not work here in this title, or in the opening of the lead. I stand upon wikipedia guidelines when I say this (in fact, the word "mythology" is given as an example right in this article): WP:RNPOV. Cheers, SAE (talk) 11:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Several words that have very specific meanings in studies of religion have different meanings in less formal contexts, e.g. fundamentalism and mythology. Wikipedia articles about religious topics should take care to use these words only in their formal senses in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense or misleading the reader."

But WP:RNPOV also refers to WP:WTA#Myth and legend, which says that "Myth has a range of formal meanings in different fields. [...] Formal use of the word is commonplace in scholarly works, and Wikipedia is no exception." Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But that does not negate that which I quoted. There is by no means a universal formal sense of myth. It continues to have a meaning of "untrue" and it is used this way in scholarly articles. Last year (and I'm not going to dig them up again) I found quotes from New York Times, and other modern publications that contrast myth and truth. Just because there is a fairly recent push to say that this dichotomy doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it actually doesn't. It does. SAE (talk) 13:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't denied that the word "myth" has both formal and informal meanings. But I don't see why you conclude that the title "Genesis creation myth" must necessarily be an example of the term "myth" being used informally. Gabbe (talk) 14:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I support this move Current title is POV. --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to explicate why? Gabbe (talk) 12:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have done above, but happy to again. Calling something a "myth" is POV if there is a notable body of opinion that disagrees with that word being used to describe it. You may dislike it, but what is correct is not the same as NPOV. You may indeed by right that it's a myth, but as calling it that is to use a tainted word and to be choosing from one of two sides. Slapping on a FAQ that says that a group of scholars who hold that POV agree with that POV is not the Wikipedia way, this is not a science textbook. And if other pages have been badly titled, perhaps they should be changed too, so please don't use WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments as you have to the user below this. --Dweller (talk) 13:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So then your argument is that the term "creation myth" should not be used to describe any religion on Wikipedia? Regardless, WP:GEVAL says that we do not have to appease all sides in a debate, but only the sides most prevalent among reliable sources. If a group of scholars promoting one view comprise the majority of reliable sources on the topic, then the debate is settled as far as Wikipedia is concerned, even though editors here might continue disagree with the sources. Gabbe (talk) 14:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My using the word "myth", you are explicitly taking the POV that Genesis is inherently false. This title is effectively discrediting creationism as nonsense. Which is fine, if Wikipedia was a science journal. But it isn't. There are many (perhaps billions) of people who believe Genesis to be a real factual account, and this article title is an insult to their POV. Masterhomer 07:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I support a move back to the original title. I see no reason why it was changed. No one can dispute the fact that "Creation according to Genesis" is a completely neutral and un-contentious title. "Genesis creation myth" is objected to as POV by many editors and will continually be challenged as such. This article will be bogged down in endless edit and move warring rather than being contributed to in a constructive way (as it should be, and as it has been for years before this "creation myth" dispute started up last month). Tonicthebrown (talk) 13:00, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said above, it's not a neutral title if it means treating Genesis differently from other religious documents. WP:RNPOV says that "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." Gabbe (talk) 13:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank-you Gabbe for supporting reverting this article to its original title. And yes, you did. You said, "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view" - the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis today use the term "myth" as a contrast to the word "truth." Therefore we should not use myth in any other way, even (as you wrote), "out of sympathy for a particular point of view." SAE (talk) 13:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never said that "the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis use the term 'myth' as a contrast to the word 'truth.'" Gabbe (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never claimed you did. Please follow the ("") quotes. SAE (talk) 14:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neither did I say you claimed I did. Your argument included the following two points:

I said "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view"
the majority of people writing on Creation according to Genesis today use the term "myth" as a contrast to the word "truth."

For your conclusion (that I support moving this article to "Creation according to Genesis") to be valid it would at least be necessary for me to affirm point #2. And I haven't said that I do. Gabbe (talk) 14:55, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume #2 as valid based on evidence, and therefore have inferred your agreement to revert to the original title. SAE (talk) 15:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If this article is renamed, I insist that all other articles where religious isues are called myth are renamed as well. Including all articles about ancient gods of the Greek, Egyptians, Hindus etc etc . We do not endorse one religion over another. CUSH 18:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Why is this even being discussed? The RM on this one was only closed a couple days ago. I oppose soly on the basis that revisiting RMs so quickly after they close sets a bad precedence. What new information could possibly be presented to show that things have changed or that the previous RM was conducted improperly? Baring either, I see no reason to overturn the conclusion of the previous RM. --Labattblueboy (talk) 20:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please read [WP:RMCI]. There it says, "sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name." This is exactly the case here. Therefore your opposition here is not valid and should be ignored in the admin seeking consensus. SAE (talk) 20:32, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That part quite clearly does not refer to moves that are the result of a formal requested move. And you can leave it to the closing admin to decide whose comments should be ignored. Ucucha 04:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The request spent a full week in a formal requested move, permitting editors no shortage of time to comment. The conclusion was ultimately to move and was apparently convincing enough that the supervising admin. did not require a relisting to determine consensus. I don't see any indication that WP:RMCI was not followed (try reading the entire policy in context before quoting bits and pieces to me) nor has anyone argued that the supervising admin. acted improperly. As a result, I remain unconvinced about the validity of this new found discussion so soon after the previous one.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support, although "Genesis creation story" would be much better - see below. I agree it is very soon after the last RM, but that had very few comments, & fewer votes, and concerned a different alternative name. I am dubious that a story known from a single literary text can properly be called a myth, but in any case the term seems clearly POV here. It does actually matter that most other ancient religions have no living adherents, but millions of people still apparently believe the Genesis story to be true. I'd have no objections to renaming other creation accounts to match, which is where "story" or "narrative" are useful. Johnbod (talk) 19:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What does it matter how many people adhere to a religion? Do numbers in adherence constitute accuracy or even veracity? I don't think so. What makes the story a myth is the supernatural agency used. CUSH 05:53, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is certainly a POV position, as plenty of people believe it is not a myth, which is not the case for Sumerian creation myth. Johnbod (talk) 11:50, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose changing name violates WP:WTA#Myth and Legend by giving preferential treatment to different articles about different belief systems. creation myth is a distinct and precise term that is near universally accepted and used in scholarly and academic articles across different belief systems. The sole reason a request to move has been made is on the basis of some editors taking offense where none has been offered despite this being explained multiple times (see the FAQ). There is no value added to the article by changing the name. Nefariousski (talk) 18:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I support the move to Creation according to Genesis. Our article should be steering a wide berth around religious and secular questions and nowhere is this more important than in the title of the article. WP:AVOID wisely councils us to avoid titles that imply a viewpoint. ("Article and section titles should be chosen, where possible, to avoid implying a viewpoint.") Just as it would be out of the question to use "sacred" and "holy" in the title it is almost as out of place to use "creation myth." "Creation myth" can be used deep within the bowels of the article but it belongs nowhere near the title. This article is not actually about "creation myths" at all. This article is mostly a recounting of the details of the first two chapters of the book of Genesis. In point of fact very little is said in relation to "creation myth" in the entire article as it presently stands. There is the statement that Genesis would be considered one of the world's many "creation myths." But nothing further is said about that subject. That one statement occupies less than ten percent of the article's content. If we were to mention in the article that some segments of some religions contend that God spoke the words that we read in Genesis, would that justify giving the article a title that included a term such as "sacred?" I think not. The article as it presently stands does not devote an enormous amount of wordage to how sacred or holy or religiously important Genesis is. There is little space devoted to addressing Genesis vis-a-vis its religious identity or its secular identity. That is not what this article is about. Obviously the problems found in the titles of other articles should not be carried over to this article. Concerning those articles where possible they should be given titles that specifically identify a body of thought found in another culture. That should be done without implying in the article's title whether these accounts are literally true or not unless of course the treatment of that question occupies an important place within those articles. Bus stop (talk) 01:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What is sacred and holy is subjective, while creation myth, so far as reliable sources go, is an objective descriptor. If you think this article is missing some information, WP:SOFIXIT? Cheers, Ben (talk) 05:11, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Creation myth is not an "objective descriptor." Creation myth is "subjective." Creation myth is one possible characterization of Genesis. Reliable sources use "creation myth" in relation to Genesis. This point should be made within the body of the article. While making this point, close adherence to sources should be observed. The title should not include unnecessary material however well-sourced. The subject of the article is "Genesis chapters one and two." That in fact would be my first choice for the title for this article. I feel there is no need to characterize it (Genesis) in any way, as far as the title is concerned. By calling it Genesis chapters one and two we would even be bypassing the questions involving some of the other terms that have been discussed such as "account." The title should simply identify it in a "bare-bones" sort of way. Certainly no hint whatsoever of editorial opinion should be contained in the title of this article. But that is besides the point because the subject is identified adequately without appending the term "creation myth." Bus stop (talk) 06:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have a flawed understanding of WP:NPOV. A neutral point of view is not a lack of viewpoint (vis-a-vis [b]y calling it Genesis chapters one and two we would even be bypassing the questions involving some of the other terms that have been discussed) it is an editorially neutral point of view. That is, when choosing a descriptive title for this article we choose a title that is consistent with reliable sources on the topic. Reliable sources on this topic use the descriptor creation myth and so we remain editorially neutral and use the same descriptor. Cheers, Ben (talk) 10:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But I didn't even mention WP:NPOV, so how do you derive that I have a "flawed understanding of WP:NPOV?" I don't believe that the policy of WP:NPOV arises in relation to the problem of what name to give this article. Not all Wikipedia policies are applicable to all problems and all situations. The problem of what name to give this article is solved by describing, minimally, the subject matter of the article. The subject matter is "Genesis chapters one and two." There is no need to elaborate on that. "Creation myth" is superfluous as far as the problem is concerned of what title to give this article. "Creation according to Genesis" and "Genesis creation story" also provide adequate names without over-elaboration. WP:NPOV would only come up if we found some reason why we had to elaborate on what we already had on hand for a title. But no argument has been presented that the title is somehow lacking without "creation myth" appended to it. It would be a contrivance to add on "creation myth" because the problem of solving for a title is accomplished by using less material in the form of words and ideas. Why would we weigh down the title with nonessential material? Bus stop (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're telling us:

The problem of what name to give this article is solved by describing, minimally, the subject matter of the article. The subject matter is "Genesis chapters one and two."

That's great, but of course there are many solutions to the problem of what to call this article. No small number of solutions has been suggested on this talk page, and we need to do a little better than just picking one out of a hat, or worse, choosing the least helpful, from a reader's point of view, of the bunch. The article should be helpfully descriptive, it should give the reader some idea of what this article is about. This is also where, contrary to your assertion, NPOV certainly does arise in relation to the naming of this article. When it comes to a choice of title we are to write from an editorially neutral point of view, from the article title to the last sentence of the article.

Now, some arbitrary division of a book is not a helpful title. Creation and the Book of Genesis are the central themes of this article. Reliable sources on this article's topic and the term creation myth go hand in hand. The current article title is consistent with our many other similar articles. With all of that in mind Genesis creation myth is, in my opinion, a suitable title for this article.

Finally, the "Show preview" button is your friend. Modifying your comments as often as you do is rude almost to the point of being disruptive. Cheers, Ben (talk) 15:17, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have an online source for Genesis being a creation myth? Bus stop (talk) 19:36, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a strange request at this point in the discussion. The Oxford's Dictionary of the Bible has an online version available if you have access. Under creation we have:

The biblical myth of the origin of the universe. There are two accounts in Genesis of the creation by God.

Under the same entry it notes that:

Although there is a revival in fundamentalist works of ‘creationism’ which regards the OT creation myths as in some sense historical and to be preferred to scientific theories of the evolution of species over immense eras of time, most modern readers of the OT reject this as incredible since it rests on a misunderstanding of the genre of the Genesis narratives, which is deeply theological.

Which may be useful to quote in this article (and the creationism article). Under myth we have as the first example:

In Genesis the Creation and the Fall are myths

The first example of a creation myth in Encyclopedia Britannica, also available online (a free trial is available iirc), is:

Thus, for example, all theology and speculation concerning creation in the Christian community are based on the myth of creation in the biblical book of Genesis and of the new creation in Jesus Christ.

I'm certain these sources satisfy any reliability, relevance and representation of the "general state of scholarship on the matter" constraints. I don't know of any sources that are entirely web-based that discuss the issue, but I'm sure they exist. Have you had a look around? Cheers, Ben (talk) 20:40, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose renaming back. I wasn't unhappy with the previous name, but now that a more standard name for this particular creation myth article has been chosen, (1) it is too early to revisit the decision without any new arguments at all, and (2) undoing the decision merely because a large number of followers of a fringe theory (creationism) have been canvassed would be completely inappropriate. Let's not forget that excessive POV pushing by these fringers was what drew attention to the unusual title in the first place. Hans Adler 07:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, I am not a follower of "creationism." Bus stop (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fringe theory that is the basis of some of the largest world religions followed by billions? If anything, the fringe theory is the academic/athiest one this POV title is trying to push. Masterhomer 08:05, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Believing in Genesis on the figurative level on which it was written in the first place is fine. But insisting that a story is literally true, just because it is so old and has been repeated so often, is fringe nowadays. (It wasn't 150 years ago.) The number of followers of Christianity is relevant to notability, i.e. whether to have this article or not. It is relevant for deciding whether to discuss a particular aspect or not, per WP:UNDUE. It is not relevant for the question whether we present facts as facts or not.

Moreover, the equation between Christians and creationists, which you are implying, would be offensive to most Christians. E.g. look at this. Do you count the Pope as one of your "billions" of Christians who apparently are creationists and against "academic/atheist" POV? Hans Adler 08:50, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Catholic Church was a big proponent of the "Big Bang" theory before it was even considered science. Masterhomer 04:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You say, "Believing in Genesis on the figurative level on which it was written in the first place is fine." What indication do you have that it (Genesis) was ever intended to be understood "on the figurative level?" Bus stop (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly support move. The current title is trying to assert an atheist POV on a fundamentally mainstream religious topic. This title is a clear violation of Wikipedia:RNPOV. Masterhomer 07:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Anthropologically there is no difference between the big bang theory and Genesis. The only difference is one is secular myth and one is considered religous myth. The myth label on big bang theory would imply falsehood, similarly myth label implies false hood here. i would think it would be wise to change other labels of myth and religious Belief in wikipedia. Weaponbb7 (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

ENOUGH. @Weaponbb7: That is a statement coming from complete scientific illiteracy. The Big Bang theory is a scientific model based on tons of evidence while Genesis is just a story in a book. We will not have this kind of talk here out of the creationism corner. This is not YouTube but an encyclopdia and we use reliable sources, and not the bullshit coming out of the Discovery Institute, the Institute for Creation Research, the Creation Research Society, or any other such organization that will twist and turn everything to make creationist teachings appear scientific and real science appear as uncertain or false. This is no platform for creationism and biblical literalism. So take your wrong comparisons elsewhere. CUSH 00:15, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That comparison came from a Anthropology textbook statement. Secondly i find you blantantly using Uncivil behavior. thirdly i am not a Creationist if i was then it would require my major of Anthroplpogy to be 99% false, which it is not. Weaponbb7 (talk) 02:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call the "Big Bang" an entirely secular theory, since it's regularly used by religious institutions (including those affiliated with Judaism, Christian and Islam) as affirmation of the divine nature of the Universe. I would personally consider the Big Bang is at least originally, a religious theory. However unlike similar attempts like intelligent design, it managed to get mainstream scientific acceptance (but only after decades of battle and proof finding). Masterhomer 06:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I don't think the current title is trying to assert a POV - myth is a neutral technical term (its only in some modern colloquial uses that it has negative connotations). Its unfortunate that some people view the term negatively, but there are many cases like that. Queer theory, for example, contains what many would view as a strongly prejudiced slur, but its just the standard technical term. The standard title for articles about this topic in other religions seems to be ....creation myth...., and changing this title would be giving preferential treatment to one religion over the others. Additionally, its important to link the title to the general article about this topic - which happens to be called creation myth. IF THAT article is changed, and ONLY if that article is changed, to something like creation narrative or cultural creation concepts, or some such wording, then there would be a case for changing this article, but it currently isn't. Newman Luke (talk) 22:32, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the term can be taken as an affirmation of POV regarding it's accuracy, means it shouldn't belong in the title. The original title is inherently NPOV, it doesn't try to classify Genesis in a way that many people would disagree with and even take insult to. But at the same time, it doesn't promote the idea that Genesis is factually accurate. Therefore, the original title is superior. Masterhomer 06:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I support this move. There are negative connotations to "myth" despite the specific denotation in this case. What makes it worse is the connotation here is the denotation elsewhere adding credence to the subtext of "false" when using "myth". The former title is accurate, representative, and does not carry with it subtexts of either truth or falsehood. -- Avi (talk) 22:48, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Opppose. Let's look closer at some of the arguments listed above:

Some, such as Templeknight, have only said that they support the move, without providing any rationale. Per Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, this is not a valid argument.
The assertion that the majority here support the move is similarly, per Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, not a valid argument.
Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is offensive. Regardless of whether this is true or not, per policy (WP:CENSOR), offensiveness is not a valid argument.
Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title takes a stand on whether Genesis is literally true or not. Regardless of whether this assertion is true or not, the position that Genesis is literally true is one held by a very small minority. Per WP:MNA, WP:PSCI, WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE, etc. we shouldn't take such minority positions in regard. If this article takes a stand and says that Genesis is not literally true, that would not be against policy. Rather, it would be in line with policy. Articles tangentially connected to the question of whether Genesis is literally true (such as Creationism, Young Earth creationism, Evolution, Earth, etc.) all take a similar position (ie. that Genesis is not literally true). But comparing with these articles is not by itself, of course, a valid argument.
Some have asserted that "Genesis creation myth" is not the most common way to refer to the topic of this article. If true, this seems to be a valid argument, since WP:UCN tells us to use the most common titles. I will not go into detail here, but rather point to other discussions on this page regarding what the most commonly used name is among reliable sources.
Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is inaccurate. If true, this assertion seems to be a valid argument, as WP:AT tells us to use names that are accurate. But apart from those that maintain that Genesis is to be taken literally, it seems to be widely accepted here (as well as in sources) that the term "creation myth" (when used in the formal sense of the term) is an accurate description of the article topic.
Some have asserted that using the term "myth" in the title is not neutral. As above, if this is true, then it seems to be a valid argument, as both WP:NPOV#Article titles and WP:AT tells us to use names that are neutral. To examine it, we must ask ourselves, what does "neutrality" mean with regards to religion? In the context of Wikipedia, "neutrality" is defined by WP:NPOV, and WP:RNPOV explicitly. RNPOV is pretty clear in that "neutrality" means not giving any religions special treatment, and that we should take care to note that words which have informal as well as formal meanings (like "myth") are only used in the proper context. So, if we decide that it's unacceptable to use "creation myth" in this article, it should be unacceptable to use in other articles as well. I think such an eradication of the term "creation myth" is not going to be particularly helpful, nor supported by WP:RNPOV and WP:WTA#Myth and legend. What we should instead focus on (as was the case before this move discussion started), is making crystal clear in the article text how the word "myth" is used in this article. So doing would be in line with policy.
Some have asserted that this article should be titled "Genesis creation myth" because similar articles are titled the same way. This argument is invalid, because other articles may be incorrectly titled as well. A related argument, however, is that if this article does not include the word "myth", then neither should other similar articles. This is not invalid, because WP:RNPOV specifically tells us to use the same terminology in dealing with all articles.
Some have asserted that by titling this article the same way that we title Pelasgian creation myth we are implicitly taking a stand in favour of atheism. This argument goes against WP:RNPOV, which tells us to treat all religions the same.

Because of what I've written above about the arguments that have been brought forth this last week, I believe that consensus (backed by policy) in favour of moving this article away from its current title has not been established on this page. That is why I oppose moving the article at this time. What I believe should be done is to continue the debate over how to explain the term "creation myth" in the lead of the article. Gabbe (talk) 11:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gabbe — You left out that using the term "creation myth" is irrelevant. It constitutes a larding of the title with extraneous material. It does not have sufficiently enough to do with the title to warrant inclusion. Similarly "sacred," "holy," and "the word of God" would be irrelevant. The title does not need commentary. The title of this article need not tackle the issues that you think are important, although there certainly is a rightful place for addressing the issues you raise within the body of the article. The article (title) needs identity. That is what is required of a title in the case of this article — identity. The title does not need commentary. Commentary belongs in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 14:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gabbe, the sources explicitly disagreeing that Genesis be categorized as a "myth" ARE reliable for purpose of establishing that this is one significant POV - just like the opposing POV that it be categorized as a myth. There is a logical fallacy known as "circular argument" that tries to apply a POV litmus test to the sources, saying only the ones that match your POV are termed "reliable". The more sources found from theologians who disagree that Genesis is a "myth", the more blatantly obvious it becomes that it is merely a highly contested point-of-view that calls it a "myth". The scholars and theologians who disagree are not to be excluded as "unreliable" when taking the viewpoints into account. Neither can you proclaim a "consensus" by excluding all viewpoints you don't like. The view that Genesis does not match the nebulous genre of "myth" is widespread and significant, even if - get this, this is the important part - even if you personally disagree with that significant viewpoint. And if you continue to endorse the "myth" POV over neutrality, believe me, you are never going to hear the end of it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank-you Til for hitting it right on the head. One side is continually dismissing reliable sources because they diagree with it. Huh?? At least Cush is honest about his dishonesty. Some others are not. SAE (talk) 19:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support an alternative (sorry folks). There's just way too much overhead between these two choices. I think someone suggested "Genesis Creation Story" (or "Genesis Creation Account"). Although I personally prefer "myth" with the understanding of the term to mean "story with meaning", there is too much charged emotion on both ends. I do not personally believe the Genesis account to be literally true, but I do not believe that my opinion is relevant to the problem at hand -- which is ease of use for both editors and readers. Those who believe in the literal account and those who do not should agree that there is too much disagreement and too much potential for disagreement with either of the suggested choices. We have too much to do on Wikipedia than to get snared by true believers and true disbelievers who are trying to make Wikipedia do something it was NEVER intended to do: establish absolute truth. "Creation According to Genesis" bears an assumptive connotation that creation literally occurred, while "Genesis Creation myth" bears an assumptive connotation that it did not. No one is going to become a theist or an atheist because of our title, but we DO want a title that is accessible to both theists and atheists alike. The very extent of this argument, whether in people involved, length of time involved, recurring nature of it, or heat of emotions, means that neither proposed title is acceptable.EGMichaels (talk) 00:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Quotes from dissenting theologians, specifically mentioning Genesis.

"In these four NT passages one encounters myth in its best-known definition. What is mythical is not true. What is true is not mythical. If one is told that the flood of Noah's day is a myth, or that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a myth, the hearer will assume that what is meant is that these two events are really fictitious narratives, invented stories... The reason why the stories of Gen. 1-11 in particular are often labeled as myth is that they reflect a prescientific or nonscientific worldview... Myth is not only a figurative expression of truth, but a false expression of truth as well. In this definition, myth becomes, essentially, any story about God or gods or any kind of supernatural powers... The above definition of myth has at least three problems. First, it is so broad in its definition that it reduces any kind of theistic statement to a mythical statement. Second, it suggests that such stories about God(s) reflect a naive concept of truth which science has dismantled. Third, such a definition of myth does not grow out of a study of mythology but from the opposition of myth to science. Bultmann did not arrive at the above definition by probing the myths of oriental and classical literature. He has given us a rationalistic, philosophical definition of myth rather than a phenomenological one. Many scholars would be content to interpret the Creation story or the Fall as neither history nor myth. It is not history, according to them, in the sense that Gen. 1-2 or Gen. 3 describes past events that actually happened. But neither are they myths, at least in the historical-philosophical definition of myth. The truth is that scholars disagree about the definition of the word. One recent writer (G. B. Caird) has isolated nine definitions of myth and another [J. W. Rogerson] documents twelve aspects of myth. This proliferation of definitions of myth is the reason why one scholar would look at Gen. 1-11 and say it is free of myth, while another scholar would look at Gen 1-11 and pronounce it entirely mythical." -- The Book of Genesis, Chapters 1-17 (part of The New International Commentary on the Old Testament) by Victor P. Hamilton, 1990, p. 56-58.

"As Giovanni Miegge emphasizes, "the supposed neutrality of those who offer only a formal definition of myth itself conceals a presupposition, and... this involves bringing Christian faith down to a level of pagan forms of worship, treating one as commensurable with the other. This is exactly what the New Testament itself refuses to do." (Gospel and Myth in the Thought of Rudolf Bultmann, p. 101)...

Many scholars deplore the ascription of mythical language to Scripture as entirely unjustifiable and arbitrary. G. Ernest Wright observes that "the absence of the modern scientific view of the universe scarcely makes the literature in itself mythology." (God Who Acts p. 128). Wright stresses that myth is characteristic of the polytheistic, and of nature-worship religions in which man, nature and the gods blend into a single continuum; it is not, he insists, aptly descriptive of biblical religion (p. 125)...

"Since pagan god-stories concern not history but nature", writes James I. Packer, "and since Scripture recounts nothing of Yahweh like the celestial goings-on of these god-stories, it seems clearer and sounder to follow Scripture's own usage and reject myth as a non-Biblical category."...

The classic treatment of the New Testament attitude is Gustav Stahlin's essay on muthos in Kittel's Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Stahlin here emphasizes the evident New Testament disdain for myth. The Bible approves no role whatever for myth, whether as symbolic or parabolic or as direct impartation of religious truths.... "No matter how the term is understood, and no matter how it is extended", Stahlin writes, the concept of myth involves "an inherent antithesis to truth and reality which is quite intolerable on NT soil."...

Philip E. Hughes emphasizes the incompatibility of myth with the biblical emphasis on historical and rational revelation. The use of myth in the framework of untruth or unfactuality in contrast to the truths of the Christian revelation "is in complete harmony with the term which from the time of Pindar onwards always bears the sense of what is fictitious, as opposed to the term logos, which indicated what was true and historical.... The Christ of the Bible is The Logos, not a mythos."...

If the category of myth is a form of expression for events occurring outside the limits of human history, then to apply the term to the Word made flesh inverts not simply the traditional sense of the term, but all linguistic usage as well, and all customary linguistic associations and implications. The notion of myth is not native to the Bible, and those who seek to superimpose the concept upon revealed religion are motivated neither by biblical precedent nor by any indrect encouragement that Scripture supplies...

The term myth has therefore acquired a bewildering ambiguity of connotation with respect to religious thought. It has, in fact, become a "tramp" word of uncertain identity and even contradictory nuances...

When a scholar insists, as Bultmann does, on religious myth as a basic comprehensive category beyond cognitive knowledge and truth, and then deplores particular elements as prescientific and therefore fanciful and outmoded in contrast to modern knowledge, and moreover insists on the actual ontological reality of what transcends the experient although it is cognitively inaccessible, he obviously weights the discussion of religious myth with multiplied confusion. Bultmann is, in fact, triple-minded about myth... Bultmann thus violates his primary definition of myth...

Bernard Ramm has recently proposed an evangelical redefinition and relocation of the concept of myth. He... laments the fact that Strauss and Bultmann have given the concept of myth a bad name in the theological arena..." -- All excerpts from God Who Speaks and Shows: Preliminary Considerations by Carl F. H. Henry, 1999, Chapter 3. [NOTE: Several other scholars who have deplored the confusion of "myth" with "scripture" are also peer-reviewed, and he discusses the entire issue at length from all angles, but it would take up too much space to quote the whole chapter.]

"Through these texts [Gen. 1-2] we see what is the immediate source of the sacredness of marriage, love and fruitfulness. It is not a mythological archetype, as the neighbouring pagan peoples imagined. It is the creative word of Yahweh which gives expression to his enduring will." -- P. Grelot, Le Couple humain dans l'Ecriture, 1964, as translated in Creation Theology, Jose Morales, 2001, p. 161

[After a lengthy discussion of the important differences between Genesis and "myths"] "...Since the Hebrew worldview in Genesis is a theological history and not mythology, the question of the relation between creation and history is thereby posed." -- Creation-Covenant Scheme and Justification by Faith: A Canonical Study of the God-Human Drama in the Pentatech and the letter to the Romans‎ p 47 by Mary Sylvia Chinyere Nwachukwu, 2002

"The Old Testament makes a radical break with this philosophy of the ancient world. One does not do justice to the Old Testament by saying that Israel borrowed myth, or used mythological language to describe its faith. To the Hebrew, an absolutely sovereign God brought them into existence as a nation. Their concept of time was not cyclical but eschatological; their ritual at the temple was not cosmic and magical but an enactment of their redemption; and their concept of space was not limited to the primeval world but was actualized in history. In a word, reality to Israel was within her concept of history... Therefore Genesis is not myth. The Hebrew faith was a radical departure from the characteristic mythical thought of the pagans... [etc.] -- The Bible Knowledge Commentary (Dallas Seminary, 2004 ed.) p. 18

"While they do not teach science, the early chapters of Genesis are history and not myth. -- Genesis: Part 1: God and His Creation Genesis 1-11, Gayle Somers, Sarah Christmyer, 2004, p. 102

"...Others have suggested that the Genesis narratives are "myths". But "myth" is a slippery term, witness the fact that scholars use at least nine different definitions of "myth" [Cite to Hamilton]. According to McCartney and Clayton, "the common meaning of the term myth in popular parlance is 'a fabulous and untrue story'." This denotation, they say, makes the term "myth" totally inadequate for Genesis, for "biblical history is not myth, but a true story, told with theological purpose and vantage-point. It may use the images and linguistic forms of its environment, but slipping in the term myth by redefinition really results in a reduction of the uniqueness of biblical history. Moreover, the Genesis narratives demythologize pagan mythologies [Cite to Ross]. Surely the label of "myth" is inappropriate for narratives that demythologize pagan mythologies." -- Preaching Christ from Genesis, 2007, Sidney Greidanus, p. 23.

"It would be very difficult to classify the material in Genesis as myth. Israel had one God, not a multitude. The nation of Israel had a beginning, a history, and a future hope. They saw God, rather than gods or other supernatural creatures, as the primary actor in the world. Their worship was not cosmic, natural or superstitious, but a reenactment of their own rescue from Egypt and a celebration of God's factual intervention in history and their hope in his promises. If Genesis uses elements of mythological language, it is to display a deliberate contrast with pagan concepts and to show that the Lord God is sovereign over such ideas. For example, the ancients worshiped the sun as a god, but in Genesis the sun serves the Creator's wishes (1:14-18). The book of Genesis is a cemetery for lifeless myths and dead gods. Genesis is not myth.-- Commentary in newest edition of NLT Study Bible, Tyndale Bible Publishers (2008)

More ambivalent scholarly or secular views over the past centuries

"...Even legend, however, is not mythology, and, despite recent attempts to revive a mythological interpretation of personages and incidents in the Old Testament..., there is very general agreement that the Old Testament religion is non-mythological. This absence of mythology is another marked feature of contrast with other religions. We may, if we please, speak of a tradition like that of Eden as "mythical", as others may discuss whether it contains symbol or allegory. But "myth" in this case must be distinguished from mythology proper, i.e., such weaving of stories about the gods in their relations to each other and to the world as are found in other religions, and generally have their origins in nature-phenomena (e.g., sun-myths, dawn-myths, myths of growth and reproduction, etc.) From this element, as most scholars recognise, the Old Testament seems remarkably free. See the remarks of Professor Robertson, Early History of Israel, pp 188-9, 299. Professor Robertson quotes from an interesting article by Mr. Andrew Lang in The New Review, Aug. 1889, and also quotes Stade, Geschichte, i., pp. 438-9. Gunkel may also be referred to, Genesis, pp. 113 ff. He thinks traces of an original mythological basis are to be discovered, but contends for the absence of mythology in the proper religion of Israel." -- The Problem of the Old Testament Considered with Reference to Recent Criticism‎ by James Orr, 1906, p. 486

"Gen. i.-ii. 4. A Priestly Narrative about 550 BC. This chapter is not "a story" is the ordinary usage of that word, it is not "a myth", nor is it in the strict sense a poem." Ancient Hebrew Stories and Their Modern Interpretation, W. G. Jordan, 1922, p. 73.

"Its purpose is clearly to point to the creative power of Jahwe. Therefore to speak of mythological "elements' in the Old Testament is very confusing at best. There are no "mythological sections" that are "analyzable" as such. There is only a deliberate utilizing of a number of non-Jewish figures and images. All of this demonstrates the anti-mythological tenor of the Jahwe cult as well as the vital power of absorption in the Jahwist faith." -- Studies in Dogmatics: Sin, G. C. Berkouwer, 1971, p. 83.

"...The biblical narrative treats events of Israel's past as history, not mythology, for what happened to Abraham onward, and even prior to Abraham all the way back to creation, took place in a time-space continuum. Its world and people are the world and people we know today. Ancient mythology, while holding a great deal in common with the world of today, deals primarily with creatures and events of a different order. The nearest analogy in the biblical narrative is the Serpent in the Garden of Eden, though even there the LORD God is carefully described in non-mythological terms... " -- conservative religion scholar Carl Amerding, The Old Testament and Criticism, 1983, p. 11.

"...How to define "myth" is another matter altogether. While most, if not all biblical scholars would agree that the word myth may denote what produces myths, or may mean the understanding of the world that is contained in them, agreement would end as soon as these generalizations were made more specific. Some would argue that myths are produced by a pre-scientific outlook and that the world-view contained in myths must retreat as science advances. Others would regard myths as the product of a way of knowing different from science, expressing truths independently of the knowledge, or lack of it, of scientific causes." -- J.W. Rogerson, "Slippery Words:Myth" in Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth by Aland Dundes, 1984, p. 63

"In using the terms myth and mythical in relation to Genesis, we encounter greater misgivings. Not only do the terms have unsavory connotations in popular usage, but an impressive array of biblical scholars have argued that both myth and mythical modes of thought are absent from the Bible. Myths are what the Egyptians and Babylonians believed. 'The God of Israel has no mythology,' declared G. Ernest Wright. 'The religion of Israel suddenly appears in history, breaking radically from the mythopoeic approach to reality.' This position follows the earlier lead of Hermann Gunkel who had argued that myths are "stories about the gods", and since a myth requires at least two gods to make a story, the Old Testament contains no myths, though some mythical materials are alluded to... Obviously if one restricts the term myth to polytheistic materials, biblical materials are not only not mythical but anti-mythical..." -- The Meaning of Creation by Conrad Hyers, 1984, p. 99. [NOTE: This author does go on to argue that in his view, this idea of myth "may be" too restrictive to be useful for his purposes; but at least he acknowledges that other significant schools of thought actually do exist -- like any serious scholar would.]

"Perhaps the most important thing that can be said about the creation days - which are not the same as sun days - is that there is nothing particularly mythological about them. The world that comes into appearance and comes to appear progressively distinct is a world which is plainly perceptible to all humans as humans, believers and non-believers alike. The creation account addresses the world as we know it, as humans have always known it and will continue to know it... Yet just as the creation account is not a mythological cosmogony, so it is not a scientific explanation. Rather, it addresses my pre-understanding (Vorverstehen) of the theatre of existence prior to any explanation, mythical or scientific." -- "The Phenomenology of Symbol: Genesis I and II" by Frank Flinn, in Phenomenology in Practice and Theory: Essays for Herbert Spiegelberg, William S. Hamrick, 1985 p. 235

"...There certainly are [surviving traces of mythology] for those who regard all language about an act of God... as mythological. But this is not mythology in the traditional sense, not the kind of mythology that has become antiquated with the decay of the mythical world view." -- R. Bultmann, 'New Testament and Mythology', p. 43, as cited in Liberating Exegesis: The Challenge of Liberation Theology to Biblical Studies‎ by Christopher Rowland, Mark Corner, 1989, p. 83.

"...The Bible Is Not Mythological but Uses Mythological Ideas. Biblical thought should not be called "mythopoeic," neither should any of the resultant biblical narratives be termed "myth". The OT uses ancient Near Eastern mythological ideas figuratively and symbolically without any commitment to the underlying theology of the mythological world from which they have been borrowed. Biblical narratives, such as those of the Creation (Gen. 1:1-2:3), Paradise (2:4-25), Fall (3:1-24), and Flood (6:5-9:17), may appear to be of the same type as Ancient Near Eastern myths, but are different due to the impact of the transforming forces of Yahwistic faith." -- International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, article entry "MYTH", 1994 edition.

"...There has been in recent times a broadening of the understanding of myth; the scope of the adjective "mythical" now knows no limits (besides, there is often no clear distinction between "mythical" and "mythological".) Further, the alternative which would describe reality either as myth or history is questionable..." [lengthy discussion follows of history of the term and its various newer, nebulous meanings]... "It follows that the patriarchal stories have no relation to myth in the proper sense of the word. There can be only points of contact where folk stories are designated as "myths" or where an older form lies behind the myth." -- Genesis 12-36, Claus Westermann, 1995, p. 54.

"Genesis' story is not a myth, for it does not in fact tell us anything about what things were like when there were no things. Its tohu webohu is not an antecedent nothingness-actuality like the Great Slime dismembered by the Babylonian Marduk, nor yet an eternal egg or womb or pure potentiality of primal matter..." -- Systematic Theology, Robert Jenson, 1997, p. 11

"The story told in the third chapter of Genesis is not a myth; it does not describe what always and never happens. It describes the historical first happening of what thereafter always happens; moreover, had it not happened with the first humans it could not have happened at all, since then the first humans would have been omitted from an "encompassing deed of the human race". -- ibid, p. 150

"Consider next the Bible's account of the Flood in Genesis 7:17-24. Sound interpretation shows that the text is describing real events and a real person, Noah. It is not myth. But the text describes things as they would appear to a human observer like Noah. Everything within range of human observation was covered with water, and all the animals within human range died." -- Three Views on Creation and Evolution (1999), various authors, p. 92.

"Myth, Mythology. In popular usage the term myth connotes something untrue, unimaginable, or unbelievable; or, in older parlance, "a purely fictitious narrative usually involving supernatural persons or events" (OED). (Deferring to this usage and to the Christian religion, standard Western encyclopedias of mythology omit from their discussion any reference to the narratives of the Bible.) However, in the realm of biblical studies and theology, just as in contemporary anthropology, philosophy, and literature, the term myth is often used in a less pejorative fashion to describe an important if provisional way of perceiving and expressing truth. There is, however, no agreed-on definition, whether in terms of its form (that is, its relationship to fairy-tales, legends, tales, epics etc.), or in terms of its content and function.

"Hermann Gunkel defined myth as a story involving at least two gods and on this basis denied that the OT contains true myths but at most, "faded out" myths or "mythic torsos"... -- Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Richard N. Soulen, 2001, p. 115.

"Genesis 2 is not a myth about how things always are, but a story about something that happened." -- Old Testament Theology: Israel's Gospel, John Goldingay, 2003, p. 119.

"Similarly, in the Hebrew Bible Genesis 1-11 is presented as 'history', not 'myth' or 'fiction'." -- Richard E Averbeck, "Sumer, The Bible and Comparative Method" in Mesopotamia and the Bible: Comparative Evaluations, 2003, p. 109.

"The Bible itself is perfectly aware of its opposition to all mythological religions. It brands them as idolatrous, and I think that the revelation of scapegoat delusion in mythology is an essential part of the fight against idolatry. Here we could go, for instance, to the story of Cain and Abel, and compare it to the myth of Romulus and Remus. In the story of Cain and Abel, the murder of one brother by the other is presented as a crime that is also the founding of a community. But in the Roman story this foundation cannot be viewed as a crime. It is a legitimate action by Romulus. The point of view of the Bible about such events differs enormously from that of myth." -- Oedipus Unbound: Selected Writings on Rivalry and Desire, by René Girard, Mark R. Anspach, 2004 ISBN 0804747806, 9780804747806 p. 112

[The following commentary and analysis in this book on the social effect of the Bible is also exceedingly interesting, and may be summed up with this concluding statement:] "Not only is the Bible not myth; it is the source of whatever "demythologization" has occurred in the world and will occur in the future. (ibid, p. 112)

"The creation story is not a myth but neither is it a modern scientific textbook... The Genesis creation story may be a parable, written for the understanding of the ancients. But in no way is it a myth." -- The Patterns of New Ideas: 300 Ideas for Products, Inventions and Improvements, Mark Meek, 2004, p. 186-187 (Category:Science)

"...The great diversity of the scholarly works on myth shows that, although being one of the most studied subjects in the history of the social sciences and the humanities, it has not yet been entirely understood. At the crux of this confusion is the simple and straightforward question of whether or not the storyline content of myth has any basis in historical events and processes. A disdainful view of myth is easily demonstrated by a simple citation analysis of the editorial use of the term 'myth'... in the generally well-respected journals Nature and Science during the ten-year publication period of 1996 through 2005... The few times that 'myth' is used are virtually always in a pejorative sense, such as "time to bury misleading myth"..." -- Myth and Geology, 2007, p. 10, session held at the 32nd International Geological Congress in Florence, Italy, in August 2004.

Note: This is only a selection of the supporting material on my user page, quoting a significant POV of prominent scholars of all stripes, who dispute that the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, and/or Bhagavad Gita are "myths". This POV is significant, and it has only been brushed aide by asserting some sort of magical priority for the nomenclature of the opposing POV - as if the controversy has now suddenly been settled to everyone's satisfaction. It has not, by any means. We are called to describe the situation neutrally - not take sides. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

this is a rather impressive exercise in cherry-picking. The entire point you are making, and it is one I am willing to concede, is that it isn't very usual to talk about the "Genesis creation myth". It is de facto more usual to say "Genesis creation narrative" or similar, which is why I would support a move back to the original title. This does not, however, change the obvious fact that Genesis contains a record of a Hebrew creation myth. --dab (𒁳) 15:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, so much effort to make Genesis true. But where are the quotes from Hindu theologians? CUSH 18:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to understand how any of the points brought up in your post isn't solved by the wording of this article, the FAQ and lengthy talk page discussions. If someone jumps to conclusions and assumes informal use without looking at the FAQ, clicking on the wikilink to creation myth, reading the sources cited/referenced etc... is not the fault of the editors of the article. Due diligence has been more than met to establish formal usage of the term, this article's use of the term creation myth meets every relevent policy time and time again, the RFC shows this, precedent from other related articles shows this as does consensus. There's no reasonable assumption that any reasonably intelligent reader who's not out to push their own POV or dig up trouble would have any grief with the wording of the article. Nefariousski (talk) 18:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: There should be two articles

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I know some people are going to jump on this calling it a POV fork, and maybe it is, but it's a fork that's so deeply ingrained in the editors here and in society as a whole, that I think it has merit in this case.

Let me quote from WP:Content Forking:

Articles whose subject is a POV
Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other appropriate points of view. Thus Evolution and Creationism, Capitalism and Communism, Biblical literalism and Biblical criticism, etc., all represent legitimate article subjects. As noted above, "Criticism of" type articles should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors.

I think that pretty much describes the situation we're in right now. The views of the Genesis account are so polarized that having one article called Creation according to Genesis and another called Genesis creation myth seems to be the only way for us to stop spinning our wheels.

The fact is, one side can push its view on the other today, but in a month or two, the dispute will be back. There is no consensus, and there will be no consensus. I think we all understand that. Anyone who doesn't needs to sit down and read through this talk page.

I propose that we split the article. That each article after the split should contain a brief section summarizing the opposing view along with a link to the other article. We can put a stop to the incredible waste of time and resources that's happening here and let that energy be used for more productive purposes. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 15:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As you predicted, I call WP:CFORK. This is the article discussing the creation story in Genesis.

That is, the Hebrew creation myth. The section you quote does not apply to the situation at hand. If there must be an "article about a pov", it would be "Creationism in US Christian fundamentalism". The Creation according to Genesis and Genesis creation myth would not be affected by this at all and still point to the same article. Within WP:DUE there can at best be a brief "in US Christian fundamentalism" section in this article, pointing to the "article about a pov" you propose.

That there is a "dispute" among editors, i.e. among people who happened to feel called to click "edit" and comment on the article, is supremely irrelevant. The question is, do we have a bona fide dispute among Wikipedians, based on content issues and informed by policy. Such a dispute can be resolved constructively.

In cases where "disputes" cannot be resolved constructively, as you suggest is the case here, it is usually due to the "dispute" not being about Wikipedia or writing articles at all, but about some ideological hobby-horse dragged to Wikipedia in violation of project aims and policies. Such "disputes" (for the purposes of Wikipedia, non-issues) are resolved by WP:IGNORE.

Let me be very clear: there are several valid choices for the title of this article. This does NOT mean that there are several articles in there.

The topic here is the Hebrew creation story as recorded in Genesis (Bereshit), and the history of its reception. That this is about a creation myth is completely undisputed. People who keep harping about the semantics of "myth" haven't even begun to grasp the issue and can be safely ignored in any serious debate on the topic. --dab (𒁳) 15:23, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

your arrogance is not helpful here at all and at the very least you have shown yourself to be incapable of a scholarly debate. 76.249.20.127 (talk) 15:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So Dab posts 8 paragraphs, and instead of talking about that, you handwave it away with an "I don't like your attitude in the last sentence you wrote"? --King Öomie 15:49, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm.. Yes. But don't point your finger at me, point it at him. He wrote (my paraphrase): "If you disagree with me, I don't want to hear you." So, guess what? I didn't give him a reply. Makes sense, no? 76.249.20.127 (talk) 15:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Paraphrasing" is generally understood to mean changing one's words without changing the meaning, which you have failed to do here. Dab is saying "People who continuously argue irrelevant topics, while ignoring the actual issue, can be ignored". And he's right. --King Öomie 16:04, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok then, let me write this: People here who continue to harp on the fact the myth does not mean "false story" in our current culture have failed to grasp the real issue and can be safely ignored here. Is that you? Because I am right. 76.249.20.127 (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If not that, then what is the issue? Or rather, what issue is preventing the use of that term today? --King Öomie 16:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you mind arguing this in one of the other sections? This section is about a specific proposal. This isn't only about the term "myth". It's about the entire direction of the article. There is an article about Creation according to Genesis, which deals with Genesis as such. And there's an article about the Genesis creation myth, which is about scholarly dissection of the Genesis account. Two articles. A simple split. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Creation according to genesis redirects here. It was moved to maintain consistency with the other 10 "X creation myth" articles. --King Öomie 16:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm aware of that. That's why I'm proposing to make them separate articles, rather than an article and a redirect. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:43, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dab, the section I quoted is pretty clear. This is a case of something that speaks for itself, and criticism of that thing. You want to switch it around and say that the criticism is primary. I won't even argue with that, since it doesn't matter. The fact is, there's an article about the Genesis creation story, as such. And then there's an article about criticism of that story. And since we're ignoring connotations and sticking purely with denotations (as you insist with the word "myth"), criticism can be positive or negative. In fact, secular biblical scholarship is often called biblical criticism.

You talk about ideological hobby-horses, but don't you see that each side here thinks that's what the other side is doing? Just because you hold one view on that doesn't mean that your view is fact.

To narrow the quote I brought further:

"Criticism of" type articles should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors.

I don't understand why you prefer to keep arguing. There will not be a consensus here. Maybe you're hoping that if this drags on long enough, the side you disagree with will tire first and that you'll achieve "consensus" by default. That's not what consensus means, however, and I can promise you that it isn't going to happen. You know it isn't going to happen. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:15, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me also address your statement that "If there must be an 'article about a pov', it would be 'Creationism in US Christian fundamentalism'." I'm not a Christian; I'm a Jew. And I think you're displaying more than a little bias by stating things the way you did. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:24, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where does he call you a christian? He's referring to biblical literalism, which really only exists in US christian fundamentalism. --King Öomie 16:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really. So the view that every word of Genesis was dictated to Moses by God doesn't exist outside of Christian fundamentalism? That's certainly not true. The fact that Orthodox Jews don't read any of the Bible as literal in the way that US Christian fundamentalists do doesn't mean that we don't consider it to be true, and the literal word of God. Dab knows that, which is why I wrote what I did. And now you know it as well, so we've all profited. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 16:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Creation myth" is one characterization of Genesis. Genesis is also a cornerstone of several religions. Is it a "creation myth" in that capacity? No — Genesis represents veracity in that context, at least to some. Again — the account of creation contained in Genesis does not provide a clue that its material is merely allegorical. No hint is found in Genesis that its contents are merely to be understood as metaphor for something else. Genesis does not suggest that its readers understand its material as a figurative account of what transpired at the beginning of the world. This point can be easily overlooked. In the clamor to apply scientific and pseudoscientific categorization it seems that some editors are giving short shrift to the Wikipedia principle of WP:VERIFY: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Some editors in this dispute find justification for the "spin" that they wish to put in the title in the overwhelming scientific evidence debunking the account of creation found in Genesis. But the core requirement of a title does not involve some test of whether or not the subject matter of an article will hold up to rational scrutiny. The relevant facts that come into play in choosing a title for this article involve what the subject matter is about, not what big sticky label scholarly or academic sources may choose to slap on it. There is a place for reporting on the big sticky label reading "Creation myth" that academics may choose to adhere to Genesis. That place is within the article. Concerning the title, priority should be given to the article's essential identity, not to add-on identities, however popular, fashionable, or even rationally justifiable they may be. There is respect shown not only to the article but to Wikipedia itself to not bend to current fashion in the way some editors are advocating. Bus stop (talk) 16:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This reads like a study of how many irrelevant and incorrect sentences someone can put together without hitting "enter". A creation myth is a supernatural story of the creation of the world and/or man. This is supported with near-unanimity by scholars. It is not a characterization, any more than you are characterized as a homo sapien. (That damned binomial nomenclature, infringing on my religious right to call myself a god-buddy...) We are not trying to call the Book of Genesis, itself, mythical. --King Öomie 16:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any WP:V issues here, here's how Enclyclopedia Britannica describes it, under a big section heading Myths: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/307197/Judaism/35340/Sources-and-development#ref299709

Biblical myths are found mainly in the first 11 chapters of Genesis, the first book of the Bible. They are concerned with the creation of the world and the first man and woman, the origin of the current human condition, the primeval Deluge, the distribution of peoples, and the variation of languages.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tendancer (talk • contribs)

I'm saying it's an irrelevant argument, because no one is actually trying to present it that way in the article. --King Öomie 17:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus Stop, I really wish you'd drop this nonsensical argument. You're saying that unless Genesis calls itself allegorical, we have no right to? By that reasoning, we can't claim any myth to be mythological. It's totally backwards and I'm surprised you're still advocating it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:28, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand That Feeds You — such claims belong in the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 20:13, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why? --King Öomie 20:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus Stop, please look up the definition of the term "creation myth" and explain to me how genesis doesn't fit. Is it not a religious account of how life / earth etc... was created? Just because you don't like the formal term for a concept doesn't make it any more or less the formal term. Nefariousski (talk) 18:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Nefariousski, that is one characterization. But we don't have to lock the article into that characterization. Bus stop (talk) 20:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the other characterization? Would you propose we add a statement saying "The hebrew bible says that the hebrew bible is a literal cosmogenical account"? How else can it be defined? Nefariousski (talk) 20:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nefariousski — there are an indeterminate number of other characterizations. Bus stop (talk) 20:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a characterization, any more than you are characterized as a homo sapien. Next I'm wrapping it with <big>. --King Öomie 21:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even if you could come up with an alternative characterization that actually had some sort of reliable sources supporting it. The usage of "creation myth" would still outweigh and be preferable per WP:UNDUE. To King's point if people are called 4 different things but one of those things is overwhelmingly used by academia, scholars, etc... then that is what we use. If I find a reference to prehistoric reptiles being called "Jesus Horses" that's not a viable "characterization" to replace the word Dinosaur.Nefariousski (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying it's not a characterization at all. It's an expert-supported classification. --King Öomie 21:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, I wasn't replying to you on that last comment. Just trying to state that just because there are a few people out there that disagree with a specific "Characterization" or "Classification" that is near univerally accepted doesn't lend strength to an arguement that we shouldn't use said near universally accepted term. Nefariousski (talk) 21:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem here is that you and I (and gabbe and cush and dab and etc etc) are right on so many levels that it's hard to keep them straight. --King Öomie 21:41, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To repeat, Bus Stop: A creation myth is a supernatural story of the creation of the world and/or man. This is supported with near-unanimity by scholars. It is not a characterization, any more than you are characterized as a homo sapien. (That damned binomial nomenclature, infringing on my religious right to call myself a god-buddy...) --King Öomie 20:21, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Gabbe stated above, Genesis is a primary source, and thus we must defer to the majority of secondary sources (scholars). --King Öomie 19:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You mean archaeologists, historians, astronomers and biologists. To evaluate such claims you need experts, not scholars. CUSH 20:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, this isn't about Genesis being true or not true. This is about the term 'Creation myth' having widespread usage and approval amongst relevant experts (theologians). --King Öomie 20:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing by experts you mean Theologans? Would you be shocked to find out that the term creation myth is widely used in the theological world as well? We even pull our primary definition of the term from the Oxford dictionary of the bible. Nefariousski (talk) 20:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nef, Cush is in agreement that the article should stay were it is, but has been arguing from the standpoint of science and strong atheism. I've been making the point that those arguments are simply not required in this case (though in my personal life I expect we agree quite closely)- and those arguments tend to accomplish nothing but rile up the religiously-motivated editors here. --King Öomie 20:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Religiously motivated?" Give me a break… Bus stop (talk) 20:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry that seemed like an insult to you. I wasn't talking about everyone not on my side. I meant a specific few who Cush's arguments have actually pissed off, like Templeknight, who said "Right now you gave the proof we needed ..... so you call it myth because you dont think its true !". --King Öomie 20:57, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is Wikipedia. We do not have to bow down to the Sherri Shepherds in the world. How could the Genesis story be true when it is not even original? But that is besides the point. The point is to treat all religions equal around here and to not give in to the judeochristian proselytizers. If these folks are offended that's their problem, I am certainly a lot more offended than that, so we are even. CUSH 21:39, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Proselytizers?" For which religion would we be proselytizing? The "Judeo-Christian" religion? Bus stop (talk) 21:58, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If by that you mean adherents of the Hebrew bible then yes. But that's beside the point. Unless someone can come up with a rational reason to fork the article that doesn't involve some appeal to hurt feelings or offensiveness and shows some sort of value added then the point is moot and as such this whole section should be archived. Nefariousski (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nefariousski — I didn't say it. Cush said, "The point is to treat all religions equal around here and to not give in to the judeochristian proselytizers." Bus stop (talk) 23:22, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ignore it, to be honest. I've been clear with Cush that this line of argumentation is only minutely connected to the issue at hand, and that it tends to derail the discussion into bouts of "Say WHAT now?". The opinions of Cush are "not necessarily those of NBC or its affiliates', etc etc, and it is not the line of reasoning driving the rest of us (that I know of). --King Öomie 04:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ignore yourself. If the word "myth" is changed to "account" then Wikipedia claims truth for the Genesis text. And we all know why certain people want this in Wikipedia. There are many instances around here where articles were changed to support positions of Christian fundamentalists. That is proselytizing and is unacceptable. CUSH 12:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there is merely emphasis on stripping away any "spin" from the title, and that would include the anti-religious spin of "Genesis creation myth."

This is about treating Jewish mythology as any other mythology. And to do that you need historians who can evaluate and do comparisons of the various creation myths. This is what an article on the first part of Genesis has to be about. WP does not endorse one religious POV over others. An NPOV can only be achieved by drawing the whole picture and including the context in which the creation myth was created. It was assembled out of bits an pieces of much older (mostly Mesopotamian) traditions. That it is a made-up story in any way you view it is beyond question anyways. Otherwise we would seriously have to include the Silmarillion as a valid creation account as well. CUSH 20:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King, you make a valid point that what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. If Genesis becomes "Creation according to Genesis," then the Xylohaedics' article and 999 others should become "Creation according to the Xylohaedics," or the actual name of their sacred book if applicable. Each article should still say internally somethere in the lead that it fits the technical description of a "creation myth."

There is a pending proposal to split the Creation myth article into separate articles, or alternatively into an article called "List of creation myths" which instead would become "List of creation stories/accounts/narratives" (choose one). That would leave the main article open to extensive development about the concept of "creation myth." Presently it is simply an overly brief dictionary-type definition.

The issue here is the ordinary commonly understood meaning of "myth." There's no way we can run the two words together to make them somehow unique, so to (I dare say) the vast majority of English-speakers (at least), they read it as creation MYTH". It's not unlike saying to someone, "You're a bastard," and as you're picking yourself up off the floor you try to clarify: "Uh, I don't know why you're so upset. I meant you are like a sweet Spanish wine like muscadel in flavor."

It boils down to what's more important to us: to communicate effectively (shared meaning) or to stubbornly approach it legalistically just because it's technically correct and "they" should know better. And if some readers misinterpret it to mean─as one dictionary clearly says─"the use of the word myth in everyday speech which basically refers to any unreal or imaginary story"─then many editors might conclude: "So much the better!" POV? I think so. Thanks, ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an interesting find. An article on Mythology opens this way:

LEAD PARAGRAPH: Definitions of Myth

Before defining the term "mythology" one needs to define the meaning of the word "myth". The word itself comes from the Greek "mythos" which originally meant "speech" or "discourse" but which later came to mean "fable" or "legend". In this document the word "myth" will be defined as a story of forgotten or vague origin, basically religious or supernatural in nature, which seeks to explain or rationalize one or more aspects of the world or a society.

Furthermore, in the context of this document, all myths are, at some stage, actually believed to be true by the peoples of the societies that used or originated the myth. Our definition is thus clearly distinguished from the use of the word myth in everyday speech which basically refers to any unreal or imaginary story.

A myth is also distinctly different from an allegory or parable which is a story deliberately made up to illustrate some moral point but which has never been assumed to be true by anyone.

Some myths describe some actual historical event, but have been embellished and refashioned by various story tellers over time so that it is impossible to tell what really happened. In this last aspect myths have a legendary and historical nature. (italics added)
— Bernard Doyle

Interesting that an areligious article about myths believes it behooves them to define terms to disambiguate the word "myth." They take the guesswork out of what myth means to the author, with or without a prefix word. Does that mean the author is unscholarly? What it does confirm is that even experts on mythology recognize and acknowledge that the term "myth" has a meaning "in everyday speech which basically refers to any unreal or imaginary story." Look, folks: this is not coming from a theologian, fundamentalist or otherwise, nor from anyone religiously motivated.

I realize that the term "creation myth" is here to stay, and I don't complain about that. I'm just appealing that we be judiciously helpful to the ordinary encyclopedia reader, exactly like Bernard Doyle does in his Mythology article, starting with the clear fact that he acknowledges, but which for some reason many of us are afraid to acknowledge: "myth" has a meaning "in everyday speech which basically refers to any unreal or imaginary story" ─ and explain that's NOT what this article is about. I now believe some (certainly not all whose views are different from mine) authors want this article to imply that it is an unreal or imaginary story and are hiding behind Wiki policy either correctly or incorrectly to achieve that sinister POV purpose.─AFA Prof01 (talk) 00:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You mean their mythology article explains the term myth? How innovative of them. Meanwhile their Judaic mythology article is in need of a touch up, AFA Prof01, if it is to reach the standard you're holding this article to. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:52, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Ben, I don't get your point. I cited one article, not the whole Website. I grant your observation of "Judaic mythology." ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 02:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They have an article about mythology that explains the term myth, and so do we here. In fact, we have creation myth (and others like it) too that explain related terms. I'm certain that everybody thinks that is a great idea, and we already attempt to do the same. With those articles as a basis, we are being "judiciously helpful to the ordinary encyclopedia reader" in this article by remaining faithful to reliable sources on the topic, offering wikilinks to those relevant articles and supporting an introductory sentence of the form The Genesis creation myth is the <expansion of the term creation myth> ... (in this article) so that readers will not even have to click a wikilink.

Suppression of relevant and mainstream terminology is not considered "judiciously helpful to the ordinary encyclopedia reader", it is likely considered by many people here to be an attempt to project scientific reliability, or at the very least reduce a perception of scientific unreliability. You may not agree with that last statement, but you must at least acknowledge the perception given the articles religious significance, the rise of biblical literalism in the US, the propensity of biblical literalists to use the Internet as an outlet (projects like Conservapedia and Answers in Genesis, and literalism POV pushing on Wikipedia, come to mind), and the general form of argument in opposition to the term creation myth on this very talk page (arguments whose basis is the association of myth with untrue seem uniform).

I'm sorry for the length of the reply, it's not generally my style. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No length-of-reply apology necessary. I very much appreciate your in-depth, objective reply to my question. I'm still unclear as to what are your objections to starting the article with an approach similar to the one I cited from [Mythology|pantheon.org]. It comes across as scholarly; it is disambiguating and clear; it's an approach that seems to me would meet the objections of all but the few who do not want "myth" to appear anywhere in "our" article. If we would agree to restore the CATG title, that would salve many open wounds. Then, after a very brief opening paragraph, the entire 2nd para. could be devoted to the myth issue, labeling this a creation myth but explaining what that means, à la the pantheon article. This deadlock isn't helping anyone or anything.

One more question, please: The Creation myth article is pitiful, which doesn't help when the Genesis creation article Wikilinks to it. I am interested in pursuing the suggestion that has been posted at the top of that article. If we split the article into into "Creation myth" (singular) and move the specific myths to "Creation myths (list)" or something similar, we can have a CM article that will help people understand the technical/academic/literary term. Presently, I think it hurts more than it helps with thepresent objections re: Genesis. What do you think about this? And BTW, you are clearly the expert in using the [[WP:policies]] links, and also knowing them extensively. I clearly am not, so I apologize for not making good use of them in my comms to you. Thanks, Ben. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 20:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I'm sorry Lisa but I can't see the argument for 2 articles. The idea that Genesis 1-2 is literally true because the Bible is the Word of God should of course be covered, but so it is - there's a section or subsection called Creationism, and there are a few other references to the basic Creationist argument at various points.

Somewhere between 550-450 BCE someone sat down and wrote Genesis 1-2, along with a great deal else. How he did it nobody can agree - separate documents (Wellhausen's view), an expansion on an existing document (Van Seters), or the collation and editing of lots of fragments (Rendtorff). Certainly he had a limited number of Babylonian creation-myths in front of him (not my personal view, the general scholarly one). What did he believe about his sources - did he think they were the Word of God, did he simply view them as the theological enemy? Nobody knows, and probably we never will. I doubt very much that he would have called the result of his effort a myth, in the sense of fiction. Very likely he would have regarded it as true - but in what sense? "True" can be a slippery word. PiCo (talk) 03:25, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"True" is only a slippery word to those better versed in magical thinking than logic. It's not relevant whether the mortal author (or penman) of Genesis considered the creation myth at the front a myth. By today's definition, it is most certainly a creation myth. Which is, and I find myself driven to restate, "a different animal". --King Öomie 04:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then I must be guilty of magical thinking, since I've always felt Shakespeare's plays to be true.PiCo (talk) 05:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting, given there's basically no debate that they are works of fiction. --King Öomie 05:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fiction doesn't exclude truth - in fact bad fiction is bad precisely because it doesn't ring true. PiCo (talk) 05:41, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Ringing true", or seeming realistic- verisimilitude- is not the same as 'being true'. If something is fiction, by definition, it cannot be true. That's non-fiction. --King Öomie 05:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Explain use of "myth" in header, not footnote

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I moved footnote 1 to the top of the article and made it a header - it explains how the word "myth" is being used in this article.

Incidentally, what's with the big box at top-right saying this article is part of a series on Creationism? It sure don't read that way to me. PiCo (talk) 03:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you dispute the claim that the creation myth found in Genesis 1 and 2 is inextricably connected to Creationism at its very foundation? --King Öomie 04:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've also switched the definition in said hatnote to that present at Creation myth. It is implicit biased to deem any given creation myth "sacred", as it would be to use any other praising adjective. --King Öomie 04:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you dispute the claim that the creation myth found in Genesis 1 and 2 is inextricably connected to Creationism at its very foundation? I think Genesis 1-2 is far more important to Creationism than Creationism is the Genesis - very few biblical scholars are Creationists. I don't think the article should assume that Creationists somehow have a greater claim on the bible than anyone else. Your switch of the definition is fine by me. But note that I don't use the word "sacred" as praise, but purely as description - relating to the gods.PiCo (talk) 05:05, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I think some mediation might be useful here. --Dweller (talk) 11:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We just went through an RFC that resulted in the above consensus, followed by a successful page move request. Since then the only thing that has happened is a series of !votes that were all pretty much in line with WP:JDLI, and since meditation generally requires all parties to agree, perhaps you can be a little more convincing? Cheers, Ben (talk) 11:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see considerable discord on this page, with people unhappy with the RfC. (I for one didn't even know it was occurring, not that that proves anything about anything, just saying). I see an article that had to be protected to stop move warring. I see people arguing but not listening. This is everything Wikipedia should not be. I don't see why you're assuming that all parties wouldn't agree to it before anyone has even responded to my suggestion. --Dweller (talk) 12:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is considerable discord here. Considering the number of times we've had to repeat ourselves or explain the simplest things to editors here (voting achieves nothing, for instance), I think we've all managed to remain quite well composed.

Your not knowing about the RFC does not effect its outcome in the slightest. The RFC was requested by an editor opposed to the term myth, AFA Prof01, and publicly announced according to WP:RFC. AFA Prof01 didn't like the way it was going though and started WP:VOTESTACKING in a big way (using talk pages and e-mails), so perhaps if you make friends with AFA Prof01 you'll get a personal invite next time. Nevertheless, consensus was still achieved in spite of the votestacking.

The article had to be protected because a single editor decided to start move warring. Obviously that sort of behavior is unacceptable, but you explain that to the editor not use it as an excuse to request mediation.

You are completely right that some people aren't listening (as I mentioned above). I don't know how to deal with that outside of simply ignoring their comments. My guess is mediation isn't going to make anyone listen either, and I doubt that's the purpose of mediation anyway.

I didn't assume anything about any parties, I simply noted that all parties should agree to mediation before it can begin and I thought you could be a little more convincing in order to secure that agreement. For my part though, I don't see the value in mediation after a successful RFC, a successful page move (that was also publicly listed according to WP:RM), and second open page move request (also publicly listed, see above).

Cheers, Ben (talk) 12:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the RfC was widely publicised to a range of interested WikiProjects and on WP:CENT? --Dweller (talk) 12:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would a content issue be listed at WP:CENT? Ben (talk) 13:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry. As Ben stated above, plenty of people ([8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16]) knew about the RFC. It still came out in favor of Creation Myth being used in the article. Astute readers will notice that all but I think one of these users has previously argued against the term creation myth. Despite the RFC being inundated with people called to task to oust the term, there wasn't a single reasonable argument in the bunch. --King Öomie 14:42, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben — why would you or anyone else argue for a title for an article that is unnecessary? There is ample space within the body of an article on the first two chapters of Genesis to characterize it any way reliable sources support. Why are you so insistent that one characterization grace the title? That is unnecessary. It could be named Genesis chapters one and two. Even the article Book of Genesis is ludicrous in that in the intro, literally the second sentence, the reader has to be treated to:

"After the Genesis creation myth found in the first two chapters, the following nine chapters trace the continued spreading out of humankind and the development of human culture."

It is the way of speaking that is so ridiculous. "Genesis creation myth" is first used in a sentence before referring to its use by scholars. This probably belongs in the body of the article — not the intro. And the notion of a "creation myth" would first have to be presented, along with the assertion that the first two chapters of Genesis would fit the definition scholars use for the term "creation myth."

It is damaging to Wikipedia that Wikipedia has not yet learned to place material spin-free in a purely logical layout that does not attempt to promote a point of view. Also, be aware that you are not going to change the world one iota by what you present on Wikipedia. The only aim should be to present material in a crystal-clear format that does the least to tell people what to think. Bus stop (talk) 13:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is your problem with this literary genre? It's not a 'point of view' any more than calling Dune science fiction. And again:

"This probably belongs in the body of the article — not the intro"

Why? --King Öomie 14:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What "literary genre?" Are you referring to "creation myth" as a "literary genre?" Even if "creation myth" was a "literary genre," Dune is not entitled Dune, science fiction.

This article isn't about the book of genesis on the whole. That's Book of Genesis. This specialized article would be more akin to Science fiction elements in Dune. --King Öomie 14:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the body of the article it would not make sense to use "creation myth" in a sentence before first explaining how it is used, its origin, the sort of environment in which it is used (an academic setting), and anything else pertinent to the term. It is to be assumed that the concept of the "creation myth" is a new concept to the reader. First it has to be introduced. Bus stop (talk) 14:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am, because that's what it is. What did you think it was?

Are we really circling back on ourselves with the "get it out of the lead" arguments? How long until someone starts arguing the informal meaning of 'myth' and pointing at an atheistic plot? The term doesn't need to be explained before it's used. It should probably be done at around the same time. --King Öomie 14:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is in the sciences, not in the humanities, that the term "creation myth" has its greatest applicability. "Creation myths" are not pop novels that hit the booksellers' lists every Spring. Anthropologists and sociologists and anyone else studying the cultures of people around the world, and their reservoir of thought on the origin of that group's place in the world, and/or the world itself, tends to encounter these "myths." They are commonly encountered, they are a feature of mankind, thus they are given a name for easy reference and for purposes of comparison. The name that they are given is apparently "creation myths."

But the existence of the term "creation myths" is not a reason that an article on the first two chapters of Genesis has to be entitled "Genesis creation myth." Using such a title limits the subject matter of the article. If you look at the article as it presently stands you will see that very little reference is made to the first two chapters of Genesis as a "creation myth." The term "creation myth" is prominently displayed (in the title, in the intro), but the bulk of the article is simply about the first two chapters of Genesis. "Creation myth" in relation to the "first two chapters of Genesis" is scarcely given any mention at all after the intro and the title. Bus stop (talk) 14:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)(edit conflict)(edit conflict) I'm searching, but I'm not seeing any instance of me saying Genesis was required reading in schools (well, not public schools) or a member of Oprah's Book Club. Literary genres aren't restricted to the bestseller list at Borders (though they certainly sell a number of texts containing creation myths- does the Bible still hold the title of #1 best-selling book?) --King Öomie 14:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Three edit conflicts, followed by a router hiccup during POST. This is going to be a good day, I can feel it. --King Öomie 14:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Using such a title limits the subject matter to that title."

You might have a point with this. It's not often you see a Wikipedia article with limits on its subject matter.
On a related note, someone keeps removing the plot summary of Aliens I'm trying to add to the Alien article. Perhaps an RFC is in order. --King Öomie 15:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to point out the same thing. Encyclopedia articles are inherently limited in topic, because they're summaries of the sources, not essays of their own. This article is precisely about the mythological creation story in Genesis 1 & 2. That's it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand That Feeds — but couldn't an article expand to a great extent based on the availability of a large number of reliable sources relating to it, and touching on a number of issues related to that topic? Bus stop (talk) 16:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously yes, given circumstances. You have to take care to not end up with a very large article that covers several distinct issues, obviously, or the article will be split. I'm opposed to renaming an article to allow for expansion into less specific topics, except in the case of stub articles for which more sources are not forthcoming. It seems a slippery slope to deliberately lower the bar of specificity for an article of reasonable size. --King Öomie 16:19, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Creation myth" is just one characterization of Genesis chapters one and two, and it is not even a characterization that is treated in any depth in the article in its present state. Bus stop (talk) 16:37, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. No, it isn't. It is not. And I said I'd do it.

This is supported with near-unanimity by scholars. It is not a characterization, any more than you are 'characterized' as a homo sapien. --King Öomie 16:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not denying that "creation myth" is a valid characterization, nor that it may be supported by reliable sources, but Genesis chapters one and two can be considered in any other way as well. Reliable sources can characterize Genesis chapters one and two in other ways, and the scope of this article should allow for other characterizations, especially because the article in its present state does not even treat the material of Genesis chapters one and two in terms of those two chapters being a "creation myth." The moniker "creation myth" is merely hung on this article in the form of its title. But that title does not reflect the article's contents. It is there for no apparent reason. Except of course to promote the rational approach to creation, which science does not even have conclusive answers to. The present title has an "ax to grind." It is like hanging a sign out in front of your house that reads "I am opposed to religion." That is your prerogative, but Wikipedia articles shouldn't be abused in this way. Genesis should be given the respect it deserves. It deserves to be presented simply as "Genesis chapters one and two." Deep within the the article is the place to develop the theme that academics categorize such tales — regardless the part of the world they are found in — as "creation myths." Bus stop (talk) 17:20, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus Stop, King Öomie just stated in bold letters that his argument is it's _not_ a characterization: 'creation myth' is the formal scholarly term identical to what's used in e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/142144/creation-myth/33934/Nature-and-significance and http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/307197/Judaism/35338/Jewish-myth-and-legend#ref=ref299700. By saying "I'm not denying that 'creation myth' is a valid characterization.", one could've construed it as you are somewhat twisting his words. I'm sure you are probably unaware, just pointing it out because these kind of things can lead to frustration and heated circular arguments when one camp responds without actually responding--because then it's really not as much a debate, rather just two camps directing soliloquies at each other that has weak chances of reaching any agreement. Tendancer (talk) 17:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) Describing Genesis as a creation myth is merely putting it on a level playing field with all other creation myths (which are similarly described). It is emphatically not saying "I am opposed to religion", merely "I call a spade a spade". And it is ridiculous to describe this use of creation myth as an "abuse" of Wikipedia. If an encyclopaedia can't be based on our best understanding of a subject (= careful study), what should it be based on? Or should we be pandering to "political correctness gawn mad"? --PLUMBAGO 17:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Plumbago — no one is denying "Genesis chapters one and two" is a "creation myth." If reliable sources confirm this, then that should be in our article. But why should the title be "Genesis creation myth?" That is totally unnecessary, or at least no one so far has presented a reason why it should be named in that way. Naming this article that way is making a statement — a statement that need not be made. Titles are for identifying subject matter — not for making assertions concerning that subject matter.

Putting "Genesis chapters one and two" on a "level playing field" with similar entities is a virtuous intention. But the place for explaining that to the reader is in the body of the article. "Creation myth" is not common terminology and its use in a title is gratuitous. Titles should identify general subject matter, and should leave open specifics to be worked out in the body of an article where countervailing and simply other views can be presented too. Bus stop (talk) 18:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because that's what it is. That's what the article is about: the creation myth contained in the book of Genesis. You have yet to explain how this is a "statement" when we're presenting the facts. Furthermore, how is the title not "respectful?" — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand That Feeds — anything beyond the minimum amount of description in a title is unnecessary. Titles are not for making assertions. Titles are for identifying the subject matter covered by an article. An actual examination of the subject matter covered in this article will reveal that very little reference to Genesis as a "creation myth" is found in this article at all. Bus stop (talk) 18:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The creation myth described in Genesis is the subject matter. CUSH 18:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because Sumerian creation myth exists. Why have it different for Judaism and its offshoots? CUSH 18:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cush — it is perfectly possible that "Sumerian creation myth" needs a title change too. I don't know about that — but it is possible. Bus stop (talk) 18:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bus Stop, in the spirit of wp:npov can I pose this question for the pro-creation-myth camp? Is it a fair characterization to say your main objection is that the title of the article is unnecessarily provocative? (and I believe the pro-creation myth's camp chief argument can be summarized as--correct me if I'm wrong King Oomie et al-- "'creation myth' is the terminology used in scholarly circles, and per WP:RNPOV: Conversely, editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings").

Per the "Avoiding Constant Disputes" section of the WP:NOV FAQ.

How can we avoid constant and endless warfare over neutrality issues? The best way to avoid warfare over bias is to remember that most of us are reasonably intelligent, articulate people here, or we wouldn't be working on this and caring so much about it. We have to make it our goal to understand each others' perspectives and to work hard to make sure that those other perspectives are fairly represented. When any dispute arises as to what the article should say, or what is true, we must not adopt an adversarial stance; we must do our best to step back and ask ourselves, "How can this dispute be fairly characterized?" This has to be asked repeatedly as each new controversial point is stated. It is not our job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own idiosyncratic views and then defend those edits against all-comers; it is our job to work together, mainly adding or improving content, but also, when necessary, coming to a compromise about how a controversy should be described, so that it is fair to all sides. Consensus is not always possible, but it should be your goal.

I'm not trying to mediate and don't consider myself remotely qualified even if I wanted to. Just wondering if each side takes a step back and make a good faith effort to fully understand the other side's position, the debate would be at least more "efficient" so as to speak. Tendancer (talk) 18:27, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tendancer — you are talking about article space. The issue involves the title. Secondarily the issue involves the intro, the part of the article preceding the table of contents. There is also a way of speaking that I object to, which involves using the term "creation myth" in relation to "Genesis chapters one and two" without any prior explanation or background or rationale provided for the term "creation myth." The much more open-minded way of presenting this material is to first explain that scholars find a certain type of story in a variety of groups spread around the world, and that they all tend to have certain qualities. It is only then that the assertion should be made that indeed Genesis fits this same pattern of tales that describe origins of people and things. Bus stop (talk) 18:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From WP:TITLE-

"The ideal title is:

Recognizable – Using names and terms most commonly used in reliable sources, and so most likely to be recognized, for the topic of the article.
Easy to find – Using names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles).
Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
Concise – Using names and terms that are brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.)
Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles."

While there are several caveats to this that would appear to be relevant, they all mention that we should defer to the reliable sources- a road that leads to 'creation myth'. --King Öomie 18:46, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King Öomie — Unnecessary additional restrictions should not be added to titles unless the articles associated with such titles are prepared to adhere to those additional restrictions. This article does not treat Genesis as a creation myth in 90% of the article. Bus stop (talk) 18:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Treating something as a creation myth means what exactly? A creation myth is a religiously motivated story about the origin of the world. I what way does the beginning of Genesis not meet this definition? CUSH 19:06, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of articles on fiction write about canon topics as though they were factual (comic books and sci-fi being the worst offenders). This is an editorial problem that needs to be fixed in the article, not by renaming said article to allow for it. --King Öomie 19:10, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Break it down for us

I'm starting to get the impression that Bus Stop wants us to prove, in the article text, that Genesis qualifies as a creation myth before we could name the article "Genesis creation myth." Is that accurate? If not, will you please spell out clearly what your contention is, Bus Stop? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are not deciding whether or not "Genesis qualifies as a creation myth." We go by what sources say. But we need not entitle our articles in unnecessarily restrictive ways. WP:NPOV provides for all significant views to be represented. But WP:NPOV does not say that all significant views should be represented in the title. As King Öomie pointed out above, Genesis is also a "literary genre." Should we name the article "Genesis literary genre?" Obviously not. Why not? Because it would be too restrictive. You would have a hard time writing an article on only Genesis as a literary genre. Similarly — as it stands right now — the article does not treat Genesis as a creation myth. That is mentioned in the title. And that is mentioned in the intro. But the rest of the article — 90% — is a straightforward accounting of that story. Nowhere else in the article is another mention found to this particular notion concerning "creation myths." Bus stop (talk) 19:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Facepalm Oomie did not say that Genesis was a literary genre, but that creation myths are. So, that's your misunderstanding there. And we've established that the story in Genesis is a creation myth. What, then, is your dispute with the title? What would you say needs to be different to treat Genesis as a creation myth in the article? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis fits into a literary genre, was King Öomie's contention. Bus stop (talk) 20:00, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand That Feeds — we don't "establish" anything; we go by what reliable sources say. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability, not truth. We merely report what can be supported by reliable sources. Bus stop (talk) 20:02, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Completely disengenuous. We have established via reliable sources that this is a creation myth. And we are reporting that. Are you done playing word games yet? — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:35, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I were to write an article about the creation of the world according to ancient Greek religion, that would be an article about the Greek creation myth, even if neither word appeared in the article except in the title. What is your point? CUSH 19:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a reliable source to support whatever it may be that you are considering in such an article, Cush? That is the primary question, in my opinion. But I'm not sure I really understand what sort of article you are considering or suggesting. Each situation varies slightly from every other situation used as a comparison in these discussions.

You say, "What is your point?" My point, as succinctly as I can state it, is that the title should be appropriate to the scope of the article. Bus stop (talk) 20:09, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But it is. It says exactly what the article presents. It presents the origin of the world as imagined in Judaism and derived religions. That is exactly what "creation myth" means.CUSH 20:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The addition of "creation myth" to the title is merely gratuitous; it is not at all essential. What is essential to this particular article's title is the term "Genesis." Since that is not specific enough to differentiate this article from other articles with "Genesis" in their titles, a good name for this article might be "Genesis chapters one and two." Bus stop (talk) 20:29, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous. You expel the trailing "Creation myth" from the title, then claim the remaining part, "Genesis", too general. It now needs disambiguation. Well, I agree. I suggest adding "Creation myth" to the title, to make sure people know that the article is specifically about The creation myth in the Book of Genesis. You are pushing me to a level of detached bewilderment so pure, that the only answer is dripping sarcasm. --King Öomie 20:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is too little information in the title. The issue of the article is how the world came into being according to religious teaching (here Judaism). The title must reflect that. "Genesis creation myth" does that comprehensively. There is no way to take out religion. Genesis is not a rational explanation of the world's origin, but one that involves the supernatural. Hence "myth".CUSH 20:39, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Genesis creation myth" only addresses religion. Genesis has relevance in realms other than religion. Have there ever been paintings made deriving from the events described in Genesis? Have songs ever used wording relating to that particular series of developments? Those treatments fall under other headings — for instance popular culture. Is not popular culture a distinct discipline from religion? Bus stop (talk) 20:49, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From the outset, the article Genesis creation myth should explain its subject, touch on relevant analysis in secondary sources, and discuss the cultural impact of the subject. None of these are outside the scope of this 'restrictive' name. --King Öomie 20:53, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)x2

Now we're getting to the heart of it. You're trying to change the scope of the article, but all of what you just mentioned still falls under this title. There's already a Biblical criticism article, treating the Bible as a whole as a literary work. This article has always been about the creation story in Genesis. If you can cite specific literary or artistic criticism/inspired works about the story, fine. But that's still not going to result in a change in scope, or name change. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:54, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand That Feeds — I am only giving hypothetical instances. In the absence of any known studies or reliable sources on Genesis in relation to anything other than religion, there is still no reason for a title advertising its opposition to the religions that take it seriously. That is gratuitous.

It is in poor taste. It is the slant that makes Wikipedia seem ridiculous. Some articles will slant the other way. So you could argue that the "slant" evens out across the expanse of Wikipedia. But our goal is to make the individual article we are working on "level." Our goal should not be, in any particular article, to argue for our "pet point of view."

There is an unnecessary, anti-religious spin in the title that presently adorns the article. Bus stop (talk) 21:04, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You are entirely wrong. Want to know why? Scroll up to any of the 50 times I've explained why the term 'creation myth' does not disparage its subject.

"...Editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view".[17] This is EXACTLY what you are asking us to do, to the letter. --King Öomie 21:12, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the body of the article, King Öomie, not in the title. I don't care how extensively you or other editors choose to discuss the "creation myth" dimension to Genesis, but that should be done in the body of the article. Titles and articles have different requirements. Bus stop (talk) 21:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If I'm not mistaken, that's the fifth time you've made the distinction without significant explanation. What do you have to say to my post about the policy on article titles, above? Or will it just be ignored? --King Öomie 21:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I responded to your post on article titles. Did I respond to your 5 bullet points? No. Bus stop (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not MY bullet points. Copied and pasted from policy. And I answered your response quite succinctly- your comment was mistaken. --King Öomie 21:32, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that — pasted from policy. Forgive me for being a slow typer. Bus stop (talk) 21:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)x4!

Its very much becoming clear that the only "pet point of view" is that you take personal offense to the title. You're really grasping at straws now, and I don't see this discussion being productive at this point. We didn't back down on the Muhammad images, I see no point to rename this article based on your own religious sensitivities. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:14, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Muhammad images? Aren't we going a bit far afield here? Bus stop (talk) 21:28, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. There was quite a row on Wikipedia from some folks that because images of Muhammad are offensive to followers of Islam, we shouldn't have them. That argument was soundly refuted by WP:NOTCENSORED, and was a major impetus for WP:RNPOV#Religion. The fact that you find the title offensive isn't sufficient to rename it. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:47, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did I say I found the title offensive? I never said any such thing. Bus stop (talk) 21:51, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) You've made it quite clear that you find the title "disrespectful," however. Nice try at another word game, BTW. And you might want to stop editing your posts after-the-fact. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:55, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but I am not arguing out of personal interest. Please understand the distinction. I am not personally offended. An article should treat its subject matter squarely. It shouldn't set up an unnecessarily negative context in which to consider the subject. Again — the article itself is the place where, based on reliable sources, all relevant material gets to be presented. Bus stop (talk) 22:24, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And we have multiple reliable sources that define this concept as a creation myth. These sources are from a wide range of places including theologians, a dictionary of the bible etc... so the issue of negative context shouldn't be valid, we've written an FAQ to clarify context and intent, we've wikilinked to the creation myth article for further understanding. You're basically saying that we shouldn't use a term like prehistoric because some people believe that the earth is 6000 years old and that there is no period in the history of the earth where man and written accounts didn't exist and therefore using the term prehistoric isn't sensitive to their beliefs. Nefariousski (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The comments on this talk page are starting to look like they've been written on a Möbius strip. We've had our debate, we've had our RFC, we've reached clear consensus. Small numbers of POV pushing editors who plug their ears and repeat the same tired complaints doesn't revive the issue. Nefariousski (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nefariousski — I'm just trying to be helpful. I have no POV to push. If you want the article to look like propaganda then I'd say you've got a good title. And bear in mind that other similarly named articles, from very different cultures, are also probably named in poor taste, especially since in the case of those articles we are writing about cultures that we know even less about. In my opinion we should be endeavoring to give all of them titles that are more respectful of the underlying cultural stories being studied. It also comes down to objectivity. Do we really know the forces at play that led to the particular stories concerning creation that have been found in other cultures? The title of the article is not the place to be slapping labels on those stories. It would be far better to simply name the story with an appropriate title if possible. They could all be linked together by a Wikipedia category of "Creation myths." Why isn't there a Category: Creation myths? Bus stop (talk) 21:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Using a formally defined term that is almost universally used to describe religious accounts of cosmogeneis is not propaganda. It's nothing more than conforming with what 99% academia, scholars, historians etc... use. There is no respect or value criterion to be given or removed by using a formal and correct term for this or any other article. In fact by not using the appropriate terms we dumb down the article and do readers a disservice by not introducing them to new concepts and helping them be "in the know" with what proper terms and phrases are used to describe/define certain concepts. All religious / supernatural cosmogenical accounts are creation myths by definition, that's what gives them their common thread. Search for creation myths and you get a wealth of information across different cultures and beliefs at your disposal. The alternative is searching for the preferred wording of each group and hoping you've gotten it right. But I digress. The main point here is that no matter whether we like it, you like it, the pope likes it etc... the term "creation myth" is unquestionably the proper term to use in this case. If there were a question on Jeopardy like "The term that describes a religious or supernatural account of how life, the earth or the universe began" you better believe that the correct answer would be "what is creation myth?". Nefariousski (talk) 22:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nefariousski — It is gratuitous. Unnecessary. The article is not "dumbed down" if the material is contained in the article. You are not addressing the issue of the title. Bus stop (talk) 22:31, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's just, like, your opinion man (too obscure?). We went through the debate and came to consensus regarding the title and how to use the term creation myth. I understand that you disagree with the consensus that was reached and having been on the opposite side of consensus a few times myself I understand how frustrating it can be but it doesn't change the fact that consensus was reached and still seems to be holding strong. Stronger convictions or beliefs dont translate to increased validity of a point. If you spend the same amount of time researching historical viewpoints and different interpretations of Geneisis to add to the article that you have spent debating this one issue you could have done a lot more for the article. But then again, that's just like, my opinion man. Nefariousski (talk) 22:57, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Topic ban time?

It looks as if it's time for topic bans. The disruption by people who play some kind of Three Card Monte with a small number of absurd claims that have all been shot down dozens of times can't go on forever. I don't know if we are dealing with bad faith or with a severe lack of competence, but this must stop. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do a well-prepared ANI report. Hans Adler 23:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to see threads that are handled by the FAQ (or threads that degenerate into something that is handled by the FAQ) kindly point to the FAQ and a hat/hab template applied to the section. This works perfectly well on other "drama attracting" articles like evolution and intelligent design. Debunking the same couple of arguments again and again isn't helping the project.

My time will be pretty limited today and tomorrow but I'll have some time to help with this over the weekend. I also don't think it should be me to introduce something at ANI since Baseball Bugs seems to flare up at the sight of my name. That doesn't bother me, but it will drag out the ANI thread, and I think we've all had enough of things dragging out for no good reason. Cheers, Ben (talk) 00:16, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We'd also need a q and a about why the article about the creation myth in Genesis is called Genesis creation myth, and why accurate titling isn't "gratuitous." Auntie E. (talk) 01:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If there's no other takers I'll submit the ANI. If you have any particular comments or points you think I should include just drop them off on my talk page and I'll make sure they get incorporated. Nefariousski (talk) 01:07, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say to post every diff where someone called creation myth 'POV' immediately after being told it wasn't, but that might crash the server. --King Öomie 14:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's time to get this ball rolling again. I can't even make an edit to the article any more without being reverted for no reason. See User_talk:Swift_as_an_Eagle#Justification for example (diffs at that link). Furthermore, EGMichaels is attempting to open up another new round of discussion on the term myth after an RFC and two RMs (see Talk:Genesis creation myth#Talkpage_Roundtable below, his talk page and recent contribs that look suspiciously like canvassing). Ben (talk) 16:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I'm canvassing -- and I want BOTH sides included. There's been too much argumentation here. What I want to do is list what and why for each option, and I'm not allowing either side to step on the other. It may be that no consensus is possible, or it may be that it is. But there's been too much argumentation and too little brainstorm to find out. In any case, let's please table the discussion on this talk page and move it to my own talk page. This talk page is at an impasse and it's only cluttering the page. Leave the clutter to me, and if I'm not fair and impartial, then you can blast me and leave this poor article talk page in peace.EGMichaels (talk) 16:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I meant canvassing of the inappropriate variety. You were very selective of who you sent talk page messages to. Ben (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Message box at the top

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The box is awful. Awful. What are you editors thinking? you hope all these boxes and notes at the top of the article and discussion will keep your version set in stone? Consensus yesterday means nothing for consensus tomorrow, you know that. You have crossed the line when you talk about wanting to ban users who change.

It is recommended that every controversial edit on every wiki article be talked about first on the talk page. This messge box on this particular page is not needed. Unless, you think you can keep your wording set in stone. Which again, is against policy. 75.144.70.141 (talk) 14:30, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations, you've paid attention to nothing said to you. --King Öomie 14:33, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

you object to the box for the entirely wrong reasons, but I agree that the box was a mistake. You are mistaken about how Wikipedia works. Such message-boxes are entirely adequate in many cases where there is in fact a solid consensus, see e.g. Talk:Muhammad. We have better things to do than to rehash stale discussions. As soon as we sort out this mess here, I hope that we will also be able to prevent circular debates of the kind this page currently sees. --dab (𒁳) 14:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

i appreciated your insight in the post below this, but i disagree with you here. this will be my last post on it in order to keep this short. This box was placed by one user, who was not an admin, when clearly he/she had no consensus whatsoever. It was undiplomatic and uncalled for. If I put one there that said do not use the word "myth" then imagine the uproar from the very people who put "their" box there? 75.144.70.141 (talk) 14:40, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Uproar indeed. But still not censorship. --King Öomie 14:46, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

75.144., you should apply some perspective. I would endorse a message box asking people to look up the definition of "myth" or read up on creation myth first, so we won't get the perpetual misconception of "myth" being somehow a controversial or pejorative term. I object to the message box claiming there is a consensus for the current article title. As it happens, the current title is the result of an unilateral move, and as I show below, the current title is very probably not the most commonly used name for the topic. People need to come to grips with the concept of "myth" as opposed to "narrative" or "text". Genesis is a Hebrew text. The text gives a version or an account of one or several Hebrew creation myths (not "is a creation myth"). It is completely undisputed that what we find in Genesis is mythological. It remains to be discussed, as in the sources collected by Til Eulenspiegel, whether the actual Hebrew text as preserved is "typical" for mythological literature, or if we need to assume that it has been redacted with some theological agenda. In this case, what we have in Genesis is not the unadulterated creation myth alive in 8th century BC Hebrew culture, but an indirect echo of such a myth, redacted in the Hellenistic era to make it conform with the monotheism then current. This is a complicated question, and it deserves careful treatment. Your hubbub surrounding the word "myth" hasn't even begun to scratch the surface of the actual questions involved here, and I strongly recommend that the noise on this page should subside so the voices of those editors who actually have a clue about biblical philology can be heard. --dab (𒁳) 14:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" would endorse a message box asking people to look up the definition of "myth" or read up on creation myth first" -- good. because that's already there (look up top -- it's quite lengthy). i did not delete that. so we agree. the message box crossed the line though 75.144.70.141 (talk) 15:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't call the move unilateral[18], but I understand your point. You can lose entire short stories (err, narratives) on this talkpage. --King Öomie 15:17, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, 75, [19], [20]- it appears that my edit swiped yours away rather than show me an Edit Conflict page. It wasn't intentional. --King Öomie 15:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if the message box I added hurt some feelings. That wasn't my intent. It's safe to say that consensus has been reached on this issue and it's fair to warn editors to read discussions and the FAQ prior to making an attempt to edit against said consensus so that they aren't making the same tired arguements that where shot down in the RFC and other discussions. Nefariousski (talk) 16:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UCN

wow, this discussion has become derailed completely. Time to ask the question that should have been answered first and foremost, what is the most common title by which the Genesis creation myth is referred to in academic literature in the field of biblical studies.

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
(any others?)

Just looking at the google books hits, it is evident that "Genesis creation myth" is the least frequently used of these versions. The most common is probably either "creation story in Genesis" or "Genesis creation story". Of course these results need to be refined by looking which books are academic and which aren't, but I daresay it does give a good impression. This is simple WP:NAME. POV and drawn-out ideological debates have nothing to do with it. Use neither the "myth" title nor the "according to" one, but pick one with either "story" or "narrative". Thank you. --dab (𒁳) 14:28, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And what should be done about the clear bias in presenting the Genesis creation myth significantly differently from all other creation myths on Wikipedia? --King Öomie 14:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section addresses the question of article title exclusively. Article content is an entirely different matter. But your complaint is misguided in any case. Each article is treated on a case-by-case basis. If (and only if) it transpires that the "significant difference" is in fact present in academic literature, Wikipedia must (not can, must) reflect this "significant difference" in its coverage. What Wikipedia cannot do is introduce a difference in coverage that has no counterpart in academic treatment of the topic. Please take any further debate not about article title out of this section. Wikipedia is not "unbiased", that's a very fundamental misconception. Because "unbiased" is no absolute, "bias" can only be fixed with a view to some point of reference. This point of reference for Wikipedia is mainstream academic literature. Wikipedia is bound to reflect the bias present in mainstream academia as accurately as possible. --dab (𒁳) 14:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I knew all of that, yet somehow it escaped me. At this point I'm irritated by the whittling down of the concessions demanded by the other side (for various reasons, including but not limited to the same reasons over and over again), and it's getting in the way. I"ll take a step back. --King Öomie 14:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a wise suggestion considering the ink that has been spilled so far on these pages. How do we do this so it is clear to follow? Whatever the results I hope we can all agree to submit to. For example, I will begin:

"The Hebrew Creation Narrative" -- Washington State U. (see here) 75.144.70.141 (talk) 14:54, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Hebrew creation narrative" is fine. As is "creation narrative in Genesis". I hope it is uncontroversial that "story" and "narrative" are more or less synonymous, and also that the variant "Genesis creation story/narrative" and "Creation story/narrative in Genesis" are equivalent. Combining these four readings as variants of a single title, I daresay it will become apparent that they outweigh all other options. Which of the four we end up choosing is really immaterial. --dab (𒁳) 15:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Hebrew creation narrative" is misleading. Only the language of the Genesis text is Hebrew, but this creation story was likely not held by ancient Hebrews or Israelites. The narrative is a Jewish myth out of the period of the "Babylonian Captivity" and later. CUSH 16:37, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How does this line in WP:TITLE-

The ideal title should be:
~~
"Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern  as those of other similar articles."

-Weigh up against WP:UCN? For example, "Genesis creation story" gets less scholar hits than "Creation story in Genesis", but the former is more consistent with existing articles. --King Öomie 15:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a reason wikipedia has WP:GOOGLE. If we slap

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

then we can claim these results shows clearly "creation myths" way outweigh usage for either of the other in scholarly circles. If you want to narrow it down to only those that mention genesis, then slap a +genesis in the search terms, all three are then equal. What does this all mean? It all means we need to be extremely careful trying to claim search results mean anything because it introduces bias, and let popularity trump notability/neutrality. Tendancer (talk) 16:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've done damn near every variation of the google test (you can see results half a dozen times about a mile up the page). The results are astoundingly in favor of using the term creation myth since that is the almost universally used term to describe this concept. We're not in the business of inventing terms here, "Creation Narrative" has no definition or meaning as a distinct term nor does "Creation Story" and we shouldn't be using colloquial terms or jargon when a perfectly acceptable, widely used, formal and defined term exists. To do so is a slippery slope, and would end up violating WP:WTA#Myth and Legend and sets the way for weasel words and peacock terms like "Sacred Narrative", "Divine History" etc... The subject of this article is a creation myth, not a "creation story" or "creation narrative" because neither of those terms exist in a formal sense. Nefariousski (talk) 16:47, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I google Define "Creation Narrative" there are no definitions or specific articles regarding the concept of "Creation Narrative" and a handful of the hits that came back on the first page specifically defined the term Creation Myth and used the words "Creation Narrative" in the discussion of the definition or encyclopedic article (not wiki) on creation myth. The preferred term / usage is so abundantly clear as to be almost undebateable (not like that will stop some of us). This talk page (and many others related to this issue) is turning to one desperate fork after another. First the use of "creation myth" at all and then once that was resolved, then the use of it in the lede, when that was resulved, then it was the use of it in the title, etc... Nefariousski (talk) 17:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Dab - use some form of story. There is also the issue of whether a story known from a single written text should be called a "myth" at all. Johnbod (talk) 18:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A megabyte of text in the archives of this talk says that no, that's really not an issue. --King Öomie 18:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention UCN is more focused on using common names instead of formal names people or places. The spirit of UCN doesn't really apply to this article since we're not using some uncommon archaic term. Nefariousski (talk) 19:02, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, UCN applies fully here. Johnbod (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I appriciate your detailed explanation of why you think it applies here I still disagree, the reliable sources for this article reference "creation myth". Usage of "creation myth" is hardly rare or uncommon and thus doesn't fall under the umbrella of UCN since its purpose is to avoid using obscure terminology. UCN states that we should "observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies and scientific journals" all of which almost exclusively use "creation myth". Failing that it instructs us to use whatever name we reach by consensus which we have done. Additionally UCN directs us to look toward WP:WTA for further guidance on neutrality (which we've done in making the decision). UCN furthermore directs us to use more accurate terms over colloquial terms as long as the more accurate term isn't overly obscure and has an abundant body of reliable sources that use said term (see the Tsunami vs. Tidal Wave example). Nefariousski (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Look at Dab's stats above. "Genesis Creation myth" has precisely 74 Gscholar hits! Johnbod (talk) 20:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Genesis creation account" has five times as many. 20:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Can you direct me to a definition of the term "creation account"? precision means something and considering that all options seem to have significant usage we should defer to the more accurate and precise usage not just the one with more hits.

* Creation: cre·a·tion /kriˈeɪʃən/ Show Spelled[kree-ey-shuhn] –noun 1. the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering. 2. the fact of being created. 3. something that is or has been created.

* Account: ac·count /əˈkaʊnt/ Show Spelled[uh-kount] –noun 1. an oral or written description of particular events or situations; narrative: an account of the meetings; an account of the trip. 2. an explanatory statement of conduct, as to a superior. 3. a statement of reasons, causes, etc., explaining some event.

Hope that helps you. Cheers, SAE (talk) 20:39, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So by your methods the Electoral College is a university where students learn about elections? Define the whole term, not its component parts. "Creation Account" as a term has no definition and means nothing while creation myth is a very clearly defined term. In short "Creation Account" means nothing outside of colloquial usage it is two imprecise words joined together in a string and could just as easily apply to non religious or supernatural accounts of creation. For that matter any recipe, furniture assembly manual, or home video of a baby being born could be defined as a "creation account" Nefariousski (talk) 20:51, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The term is "Genesis creation account"; but many here are using a generative meaning for the word "Myth" which classically meant other worldly, while Genesis purports to describe what happened in this world, though using a Mesopotamian story telling format which most likely valued meaning over factual events. Hardyplants (talk) 22:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@Swift as an Eagle: Yeah, however, "account" refers to the oral or written description of particular events or situations that actually exist/ed. The creation narrative in Genesis is not the description of something that anybody witnessed or that has indications pointing towards it. Genesis narrates the origin of the world achieved by supernatural forces. That is not an account, that is a myth.

And of course Nefariousski is right in pointing out that you cannot really break the term into its parts and thus destroy the compund's meaning. CUSH 20:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ofcourse it is an account and oufcourse it has been whitnessed ..... but this isnt realy a creteria of an account anyways.--Templeknight (talk) 22:12, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}^{[dubious – discuss]} --King Öomie 22:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity who witnessed the account? And who recorded said account? Nefariousski (talk) 22:38, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The question of how Moses (who wrote the Book of Genesis) knew how God created the world was a problem for the classical rabbis. The usual explanation was that God told him - after all, he met God on Mount Sinai. But according to the oral torah Moses already knew some of the stories in Genesis before he met Yahweh - so the explanation was put forward that Adam had written it down. Not that Adam witnessed the first few days, of course, but he did have the chance to talk direct to God. So, now you know :) PiCo (talk) 02:17, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See, that there, that's what they call a Retcon. --King Öomie 03:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pico, I've never heard or read of such an 'oral tradition'; the one recording religious events before the deluge was not Adam but Enoch, according to the oral traditions I've encountered. I do agree with dab that there are surely a few people getting lost in the crowd, who are familiar enough with such lore to know what they're talking about. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:59, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So Enoch wrote down an oral account a few hundred years after it happened. Did this document get passed down through the generations and end up on the ark during the great flood or was it rediscovered after the water level dropped? Nefariousski (talk) 17:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good question, but it's hard to find a specific answer in any written sources. I believe it is a tradition that Noah himself being righteous, passed certain teachings and/or writings to certain of his grandchildren. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so I understand that Noah was considered a righteous man, and I know there's a lot of detail regarding what the Ark was made of and what living things were brought on the ark and so on, but do you know of any sources that document any other items that might have been brought on to the ark? Is it a best guess based on what is understood of Noah's nature that he brought along written histories or is it assumed that the once written history (enoch's) turned into oral history and then back into written history? Are any writings actually attributed to Noah himself? Nefariousski (talk) 18:11, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have actually seen very little exploring that type of specific question; some conjecture identifying Noah with Manu, and of course parts of the Book of Enoch and other Dead Sea Scrolls are attributed to Noah. Cheers, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:29, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Til, from the Shemot Rabbah 5:22 (Moses is speaking): "I opened the book of Genesis and read it and saw the acts of the generation of the flood..." So Moses had the book of Genesis before Sinai. There are similar passages elsewhere in the Talmud. The question the rabbis were addressing was how Moses came by this knowledge. The Book of Enoch is of course earlier than the Talmud, but the age of the Oral Torah is unclear (supposedly equally as old as the Written Torah). Rashi was of the opinion that each of the Genesis patriarchs wrote an account, and that these were the originals of the toledot. PiCo (talk) 02:34, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Look through this list of the use of that terminology:[21] and you will see that the restrictive meaning of the term "account" is incorrect. Hardyplants (talk) 22:49, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong approach

In my opinion, dab's approach to this is wrong. The fact that he could think of so many ways to refer to this article's topic should have raised alarm bells. I can think of many more titles to add to his list, and I'm sure someone else can think of even more. Throw in permutations of {Bible, biblical, Hebrew, Christian, Jewish, Judaic} and phrases involving those words (something random: "the creation myth in the Bible") to get a seriously long list started. The problem is, there is no title. This article does not have a name. All of the examples we come up with are descriptors.

On top of that, choosing this article's title from a list of descriptors as long as we can come up with because it has the highest hit count is to give undue weight to one over many others whose combined hit count easily outnumber the hit count of the highest hit count descriptor. Since there are so many permutations there may even be a higher hit count descriptor we haven't thought of. Finally, we have obvious relevance and reliability issues associated with search engine tests.

So now that we've established that this article's title will in fact be a suitable descriptor and that search engine hit counts are essentially irrelevant, we analyse relevant and reliable sources and choose a suitable descriptor based on the descriptions given in those sources. It has been established that the term creation myth is near universal descriptor in the relevant and reliable sources, Genesis is an obvious modifier, Genesis creation myth is already used throughout the literature (so no original research), Genesis creation myth is consistent with our other articles, it allows us to include a short definition of creation myth in the first sentence to allay the concerns of those editors that can't shake the association of myth with false, and so on.

Am I missing something here? Cheers, Ben (talk) 07:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Genesis 1-2: Ancient cosmology

Archived: stale discussion

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

In the definitions and synonyms, I have been reading right through and past the word cosmology. Yet, in many places it is used as a synonym of "myth." Particularly with the adjective "Ancient," it isn't confused with scientific cosmology or cosmological.

This term should solve our issues (both "sides"). A major case is made for it by John H. Walton (PhD, Hebrew Union College), professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College Graduate School, in The Lost World of Genesis 1: Ancient Cosmology. [22]

Apparently it is also what the late Jewish scholar

A Google search returns quite a few phrases such as

"The Cosmology of Sumer and Babylon,"
"The Cosmology of Early China," a book entitled Ancient Cosmologies (ed. Carmen Blacker, Michael Loewe, and Martin J. Plumley; London: Allen & Unwin, 1975), 90-92.
"Classical Hindu, Buddhist and Jain cosmologies"
Explorations in Early Chinese Cosmology
"Ancient Indian Cosmology"

et al.

While "creation myth" is unquestionably a popular terms, "Cosmology" is a synonym that includes the term, and even more so when prefixed by "Ancient" which disambiguates it from scientific cosmology.

Please consider this as a "thinking outside the box" suggestion. To the "myth-ers," it is a comparable term. To the "nonmyth-ers," it avoids the very ambiguous term "myth." It's worth more study and consideration. Thank you. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 23:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm not convinced that "Ancient Cosmology" is preferable to using creation myth I do think the page warrants having the category:Christian Cosmology added. Nefariousski (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cosmology works for the planets etc, but does not cover Adam and Eve. Johnbod (talk) 01:38, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod is right - Genesis 1-2 is more than cosmology. PiCo (talk) 02:06, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. Please see following notes. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Secular scholarly evidence against use of "myth"

The following are excerpts from the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. By Alan Dundes, Prof of Anthropology and Folklore, U of Calif, Berkeley. They are available online through Google Scholar at "Sacred Narrative: Readings in the Theory of Myth" (ed. Alan Dundes)

These scholars recognize what many of us have been saying: :There is nothing pejorative about the term "myth." The term mythos means word or story.... It is only the modern usage of the word "myth" as "error" that has led to the notion of myth as something negative. In common parlance the term "myth" is often used as a mere synonym for error or fallacy. "That's just a myth!" one might exclaim to label a statement or assertion as untrue.

The authors say "...there are disagreements about what myth is and how it should be analyzed. There has been a dramatic shift in theoretical orientation from the nineteenth century to the twentieth." With scholarly disagreements about what myth is, and dramatic shift in theoretical orientation, how can we—in "clear conscience" and NPOV—persist in demanding that this and other articles present themselves as being about 'myth—creation or otherwise?

Some in arguing for "myth" here have claimed that it is a well-recognized term, particularly when preceded by "creation" or "deluge." Yet, this book says:

Nowadays, myth can encompass everything from a simple-minded, fictitious, and mendacious impression to an absolutely true and sacred account, the very reality of which far outweighs anything that ordinary everyday life can offer. The way in which the term myth is commonly used reveals, too, that the word is loaded with emotional overtones....

Please note that this is coming not from theologians, but from mythologists who cannot agree in the pages of this book. (There are multiple articles within.)

More quotes from the book:

(Different terms) are used for different religious genres but would seem to be more neutral than myth. In "terminological demytheologisation," the actual word "myth" is avoided but the account, the story itself is retained. To call the Resurrection a myth may be a dastardly insult to a Christian for whom the concept myth has a pejorative sense. He would probably prefer some such expression as holy story or sacred history: perhaps quite simply history, for in Christianity as in Judaism there is a marked tendency to transform religious traditions into history.

Christian theologians are faced with certain difficulties when using the terms myth, history and sacred history. It is possible to imagine that someone might try to classify the Creation as a myth, the Crucifixion as history and the Resurrection as sacred history.

The conception that we have of myth has continually to be revised in the light of modern scholarship. Myth is undoubtedly a very complex concept.

Cosmogonic in this sense comprises all those stories that recount how the world began, how our era started, how the goals that we strive to attain are determined and our most sacred values codified.

"Traditional oral tale" is the only safe basis for a broad definition of myth.

The negative use of (the creation myth view) of myth was as follows. It was part of the magical outlook of ancient Israel's neighbors that they saw the process of nature, especially of fertility, bound up with human activity.... The religion of the OT broke with this pattern of religion. Its thought was dominated not by the cycles of the natural world, but by the promises of God being worked out and fulfilled in the historical process. Thus history was opposed to myth, not in the popular sense of true as against historically false, but in terms of conflicting views of reality. One view (that of ancient Israel's neighbours) was a primitive and pre-scientific view, its attempt to direct natural forces being based upon ignorance of scientific laws. The other view, while no less pre-scientific, was enabled by God's redemptive action in history to be lived above a crude relationship with the world of nature to a notion of transcendence in terms of a personal God.

The above final bullet point explains how Judaeo-Christian's Book of Genesis accounts are in a different category and class from those of ancient Israel's neighbours—a question that has also been raised and unanswered in the discussions.

Nef, please include this material in your writing for Admin Notice Board on our collective behalf. None of us is an expert on myth, so far as I know, and this "professional" non-theological opinion needs to be considered.

Thanks, ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 05:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nice attempt. However, this author makes a crucial error: he assumes the history that is narrated in the Bible to be true. But of course we all know that nothing in the Bible prior to, say, 850 BCE has any historical veracity whatsoever (and religiously it is even wronger, because before the 6th century BCE Judaism did not exist at all, Israelites were not Jews). In reality "Israel" was the backlot of the Egyptian empire, a people of illiterate goatherds while the "neighbors" were the ones who took part in the exchange of culture and goods throughout the eastern Mediterranean. To say that Israel was somehow culturally or technologically superior to its environment is a reversal of the actual situation, stemming out of Jewish and Christian fundamentalism that seeks to present an alternative history of "God's people".

We do not actually know what stories about the origins of world the Israelites told their children, but we do know that the Genesis creation story did not come into existence prior to the extension of Mesopotamian rule in the Levant and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity which resulted in the birth of Judaism. The Genesis creation story reads just like a distorted version of the Enki and the Abzu , and there is no doubt that the beginning of Genesis is the result of Israelites coming into contact with Mesopotamian traditions (and of course the following tales about the Flood and the resettlement after that are originally Mesopotamian as well).

The Genesis creation narrative is one told by people who didn't know any better. It is not an accurate description of how the world came into being in reality. There is nothing about an expanding universe, cosmic microwave background, oscillating virtual particles, or anything else in it that we know today. nd why? Because it is a myth. In any sense of the word.

This article is about a theological issue, not a historical or otherweise scientific one. A creation myth is the tale of the world coming into existence through supernatural forces. That is what the beginning of the book of GEnesis is. Nothing else. CUSH 07:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cush, did we read the same book? You refer to "this author," when in fact the quotes come from several articles, each by a different author in the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. I appreciated your nicely presented Genesis opinion. The articles are written from a scientific perspective by various credentialed mythologists. Your statement, "he assumes the history that is narrated in the Bible to be true," is an incorrect jump to conclusion. Sincere question: I'm wondering if your analysis of Genesis comes from formal training and therefore personal expertise, or from secondary sources. If the latter, it would be nice to know the source(s). ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well at least now we are clear on your true argument, for pushing that opinion of yours as if an undisputed fact contested by no one. Thanks for your candor, it's much more refreshing than those who pretend the word implies no falsehood and is thus perfectly neutral. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I too thank-you for showing your clear bias. We all have presuppositions, to be sure, it's just that many try to deny that they do. You have not and now we know where you stand. I imagine that all others here who are fighting for the word myth come with these same presuppositions as you. SAE (talk) 17:38, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really this is the WHOLe point:

        myth / m'ɪθ / 
         Synonyms: 
         o noun: fable, legend
         o A myth is a well-known story which was made up in the past to explain natural events or to justify religious beliefs or social customs. N-VAR
               + There is a famous Greek myth in which Icarus flew too near to the Sun.
               + ...the world of magic and of myth.
         o If you describe a belief or explanation as a myth, you mean that many people believe it but it is actually untrue.
              Synonym: fallacy
               + Contrary to the popular myth, women are not reckless spendthrifts.

As long as this definition appears in Google, you cannot begin an article on a current and very popular religious belief, with the word "myth" and remain at the same time npov. It's not possible. You say "myth", I say "true" -- those are the opposite extremes: both are pov. Would you allow "true"? Then why would I allow "myth"? Please, let's see through our bias, and let's meet in the middle ground. SAE (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have been very open from the beginning that the connotation "untrue" of the word myth, while not intended, is perfectly appropriate in the context of this article. As a statement of fact about the history of the physical world, the Genesis creation story is simply false. There is a consensus among competent scholars that the story was originally not meant in such a literal sense, and this consensus is reflected in how we, as Wikipedia treat the topic. Creationism is fringe (or anachronistic) even as a theological theory; and even more so if gauged as an attempt to explain our physical word. There is nothing wrong or POV about hinting at this fact. And the mere use of the word "myth" with its connotation cannot amount to undue weight to debunking this fringe, either.

As to the passage quoted by Afaprof, this would be a lot more convincing if it wasn't quoted out of context. When read in context, it is clear that the author does not argue against using the word "myth" in its technical sense. Instead, he defines the technical meaning of the word, and he does so in the introduction to a book about the theory of myth. Defining the technical sense of the word and talking about its distinction from non-technical uses is an obvious thing to do in such a context and does not prove the existence of a scholarly debate about the use or abuse of the word in question. The author does not argue against the technical use of the word "myth" any more than he argues against the non-technical use:

"But untrue statements are not myths in the formal sense in this book—nor are myths necessarily untrue statements. For myth may constitute the highest form of truth, albeit in metaphorical guise."

Nice try, but this is not going to fly. Hans Adler 19:29, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is a fatal flaw in your reasoning. You say your bias wins because science proves it. However you are wrong. Every scientist who means anything in this world will acknowledge that science does not disprove God. Science nowhere disproves Creation according to Genesis and it doesn't claim to. If this article claims that, then it is sub-par academics. SAE (talk) 19:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wow. I rest my case. Hans Adler 20:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Great comeback! Try another exclamatory, it might help you further. SAE (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Adler→) As I have asked Cush, did we read the same book? You refer to "this author," when in fact the quotes come from several articles, each by a different author in the book Sacred narrative, readings in the theory of myth. Several authors, each of whom provided a "Reading," are quoted. Some points they collectively make are that (a) Mythologists cannot agree on the theory of myth. "There are disagreements about what myth is and how it should be analyzed." Who are we, then, to force that term onto the Genesis Creation article? (b) the word is loaded with emotional overtones. Does that make it appropriate as the only way to describe Creation according to Genesis? (c) In "terminological demytheologisation," the actual word "myth" is avoided but the account, the story itself is retained. That is precisely what one "side" has proposed for this article. (d) Ergo, "myth" is not a well-understood term, contrary to what another "side" has claimed in this debate. "Nowadays, myth can encompass everything from a simple-minded, fictitious, and mendacious impression to an absolutely true and sacred account, the very reality of which far outweighs anything that ordinary everyday life can offer." (e) "Myth is undoubtedly a very complex concept." How, then, is it the only appropriate choice for the title and first paragraph of this article?─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mathematicians cannot agree on a definition of the term number. So far as I know most mathematicians wouldn't even bother trying to define it. Who are we, then, to force that term onto the 1 (number), irrational number, complex number, hypercomplex number or aleph number articles? The reality is that reliable sources generally agree that the topic of these articles is that of number, though I can probably find reliable sources that disagree in the case of some of the example articles I linked (finitism?). What say you? Ben (talk) 23:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Though some mathematicians may debate some of the finer points of the definition of "number" in fields such as abstract algebra, group theory, complex analysis, etc., I've never heard of any disagreement regarding the definition of number in the plain, common sense usage employed in education including college coursework up through Calculus, Differential Equations, Statistics, etc. For the common person, including most physicicsts and engineers, there is not any ambiguity or negative connotation regarding the use of "number." There is a lot more ambiguity and disagreement in biologists' definition and use of the term "species" and exactly how the concept is defined often becomes readily apparent in advanced high school or early college course work. However, either point is something of a red herring in the present discussion, because in neither case is there much ambiguity in common (non-technical) usage, nor is their any perception of a negative connotation. In contrast, in most common usages, "myth" implies falsehood.Michael Courtney (talk) 03:14, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you missed my point: the lack of a generally agreed upon and precise definition of a term does not mean we shouldn't use the term (see AFA Prof01's point (a)), else we would have few words in the English language at our disposal. I'm still fairly sure there is no "generally agreed upon and precise definition" of the term number (I would like to be pointed to a discussion refuting me), but if my number example was a poor choice then I simply apologise. The above point still stands though and I'm sure you can come up with your own examples to convince yourself of its truth. Finally, a word having a negative connotation associated with it isn't a reason for avoiding it either: an example that comes to mind is the term theory. At the very least it would (in general) be a highly subjective criterion to work with, and I have no doubt that it would be unworkable. Cheers, Ben (talk) 04:46, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't you have algebra at university??

But back to "myth". King Arthur is a myth. So is King Solomon. Why? Because there is no extrabiblical confirmation for his existence. All there is is the single biblical source that narrates who this Solomon/Jedidiyah allegedly was and what he allegedly did. But he is absent from the archaeological and historical record. There are no artifacts bearing his name, and the events narrated in the bible for his reign do not match the nonbiblical historical record for the time period and geographical area in question. The same is true for everything else in the Bible before Solomon, including the very beginning of Genesis about the creation of the world. There is nothing that gives these biblical tales veracity. Nothing.

So, "myth" to express falsehood, or at least historical inaccuracy is acceptable as a designation for what is at issue in this article. This does not touch, however, what religious truths the Genesis narrative may contain. There is just no literal truth involved. There are so many creation myths in the world that it is completely ridiculous to expect Wikipedia to treat the judeochristian one differently and give it an elevated place only to please the fundamentalists. Wikipedia must treat all religious stories about the origin of the world in the same way. CUSH 10:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is that true about Solomon? If so, I didn't know that. I'd love to see an article about which parts of the Bible are actually backed up by non-biblical evidence. --King Öomie 14:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, please read before questioning Cush's motives further- Appeal to motive. It's not enough to say "Oh, you're only arguing this because of X". This statement does not debunk Cush's thesis- it merely dismisses it. You can hold an 'unsavory' base point for your arguments without being wrong. --King Öomie 14:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Myth or story?

Archived WP:SOAPBOX. Please note this isn't suppression, the page move thread is alive and well above!

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

(I'm only adding yet another section in order to boil the question down to its essence. If I'm wrong please add another section after this to replace mine.)

As many have pointed out above, "story" is less pejorative than "myth" because of the latter's connotation of falsehood.

The advantage I see of "story" is that it can be understood as meaning a simplified account of creation that is not so much false as merely omitting the sorts of details that more scientifically inclined people feel constitute adequate corroborative detail. For example, why did God not tell us about DNA from the get-go? That's easy, we weren't ready for it back then. Same for the Big Bang: any pharisee discoursing on the Big Bang would have been marginalized appropriately for that era, the same fate as befell Galileo, who was a few decades ahead of his time regarding heliocentrism vs. geocentrism.

I continue to be amazed at how many atheists and agnostics there are in the world. In order to be either, one needs to be in possession of a definition of "God," otherwise how can one say that God does not exist? If for example one defines God to be the universe, are these atheists and agnostics going to claim that the universe does not exist? What fraction of atheists and agnostics have a working definition of "God" by which they can reliably judge their atheism or agnosticism? Those that have such a definition strike me as just as unqualified to debate the myth-story question at hand as those that insist on the literal truth of the story.

Based on these considerations I support changing "myth" to "story". --Vaughan Pratt (talk) 08:10, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I had no idea that babies developed a working definition of "God" at some point along the conception-birth timeline. Or my dog for that matter. But thanks for letting me know, and thanks for starting another thread! Cheers, Ben (talk) 08:21, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Vaughan Pratt, for the atheist-bashing. But you know what? Why don't we just stick to Wikipedia rules? As long as nobody can come up with reliable sources that Genesis isn't made-up crap, we'll call it a myth in the very sense that it is a narrative without any grain of truth or reality in it. If the religionists have nothing to offer but attacks then there is no other way than to let them prove their claims of truth and superiority. Once and for all. This is Wikipedia, not some fundamentalism platform. CUSH 09:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Being a rather famous scientist does not make one either correct or incorrect. However, for those unaware, Vaughan Pratt didn't just fall off the turnip truck, and is not a religionist─at least not professionally. We have had myth advocates who have flashed their scientist credentials; here we apparently have a world-renowned scientist who does not flash his. In any case, Cush and Ben were very dismissive of his very logical discussion─inappropriately so, I believe. ─AFA Prof01 (talk) 22:02, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Logical? He apparently doesn't even grasp what the term agnostic means. (Hint: it means "not knowing.") He's not supporting this argument on logic, but on straw men. Sure, if you want to define god as "the universe," that's your choice. If I wanted to define god as my left foot I could, too, but it wouldn't help us in this debate any. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Vaughan Pratt is trying to make a point. Vaughan Pratt only suggested one possible definition for God. In my opinion a discussion of this sort could use a little definition. Bus stop (talk) 14:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This page isn't the proper venue for discussing the definition of 'God', or the efficacy or Athiesm, or the moral justification of agnosticism, or the divine nature of the Universe. The first two sentences of his post (after the preface) are the only ones not soapboxing. Our individual qualifications for debating this subject are immaterial to the issue at hand. --King Öomie 14:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was part of an argument. Bus stop (talk) 15:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A soapbox-ey, irrelevant argument. "I think 'story' is less insulting to laymen than 'myth', and these atheists don't know what they're talking about". Please point to the part of that sentence that ISN'T appropriate. --King Öomie 15:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Creation myth" in the title of this particular article might be considered by some to be a bit "soapbox-ey" too. Maybe we should take that into consideration and tone down any such implications in the title? Bus stop (talk) 15:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing pejorative about the term "myth." A myth is a story with a primal impact, hence the current hollywood obsession with creating mythic structure in their storyforms. Certainly the creation account in Genesis is more than an account, and more than a story. There is a point to it, and an impact on those who read it, even if they don't objectively "believe" it. The impact makes this account a myth. C.S. Lewis was an avowed atheist until his friend J.R.R. Tolkien convinced him that the Gospel narratives were "myth." Once he got the point (that there was a point), Lewis converted to Christianity.

That said, whether "myth" is a good or bad word is irrelevant to Wikipedia. We're trying to tie in articles that relate to each other, and the Genesis account certainly relates to other religious and mythological accounts of creation. It is the ease of cross reference that makes the current title the one of choice.EGMichaels (talk) 15:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't cross referencing be as well accomplished by creating Category: Creation myths? Bus stop (talk) 15:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to make the category. It won't have any effect on the name of the article, though. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Request admin closure of this thread via WP:SOAP to cease the edit-warring keeping it open. --King Öomie 16:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

move to reuest closure seems to be a case of WP:IDL, i count three deitors in this discusion who dont think it is unreasonable statment. Weaponbb7 (talk) 16:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting closure makes it an admin judgment call. But thanks. --King Öomie 16:53, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the person whose voice you are trying to suppress supports the move of the title back to the old version. Is that just a coincidence? Bus stop (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm outsourcing the decision because I refuse to argue it with you. I'm not sure I appreciate your assertion (or propagandist word choice). --King Öomie 17:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which word is propagandist — "suppress?" If that is the word, I would think collapsing the box in which that editor's comment is contained constitutes a type of "suppression." Again: that editor expressed support for the move back to the previous title. This would be the relevant comment by Vaughan Pratt:

"Based on these considerations I support changing "myth" to "story"."

I apologize for using the word "suppress." Maybe that was unfair of me. But I think "obscure" would be an appropriate word to describe putting Vaughan Pratt's comments in a collapsed box. Bus stop (talk) 17:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As usual the mentality of some people here astounds me. Everyone has been given two chances to comment on this article's title, and one of those threads is still open and receiving active comment. Yet a move to archive someone's soapbox thread is seen as suppressive and attracts "numbers trumps common sense" rationales for unarchiving it. Is a little critical thought too much to ask here, or are arguments and accusations that conjure images of a pack of zombies noming on an old bone the best we can expect?

At the end of the day the admin flag doesn't given someone more weight in discussion so I don't know what asking for admin intervention will do, but hey, I'm out of ideas too so /shrug, it can't hurt. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WTF ???

Here thar be monsters

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The issue of the article is the creation myth of Judaism and Christianity as a theological and literary issue, but definitely not as the actual origin of the world. It is a creation myth like any other. Can we please stop having this pointless discussion that only derives from obviously creationist editors who seek to present Genesis as factual or possible history? Do we have to have these kinds of warring every few months when new editors show up? CUSH 17:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a "creationist editor." And nobody is arguing that the information you are referring to does not have a rightful place in the article. All that is under discussion is the title. Bus stop (talk) 17:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Labeling every one as "Creationist" "Fundamentalist" or "Religionist" because you disagree with them is not helpful. Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But people other than these would never insist on presenting Genesis as actual history. There are no reliable sources for such a position and the position is fringe anyways. CUSH 17:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

no one has said that is proposing thatWeaponbb7 (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How so? That's the only reasonable stance one can have against calling it a creation myth like we do with all other faiths. The only way it can be removed from that category and not meet the definition is if it is some how proven to be historically accurate reality. So, not to jump to conclusions, or judge motivations but it's pretty evident that only those who have a strong opinion in favor of biblical literalism or creationist ideology would have much grief with calling this a creation myth.Nefariousski (talk) 17:43, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. The refusal to call Genesis a "creation myth" as it is done for all other religions is solely based on a literal interpretation of the Bible and a faith in said interpretation. Such literal interpretations are only conducted by a very limited number of groups and adherents inside Christianity and Judaism. CUSH 17:58, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why another thread? Why?! Now we get to hear the same thing again! Please, for the love of your deity and/or pasta of choice, self-archive! Abort man, abort! Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this is improper. Highly improper. (Joke.) Bus stop (talk) 18:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the laugh Ben, It's a shame you can't add klaxons and audio of a computerized self destruct countdown to your post. Nefariousski (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cush, you have an obvious prejudice here, and your interest does not appear to be for NPOV collaboration. You may want to recuse yourself for a while to gain perspective. I initially agreed with your choice of title, but I cannot agree if you are merely trying to use a title to make an end run around neutrality.EGMichaels (talk) 19:00, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your support or opposition shouldn't depend on any editor, perceived prejudice or not. Ben (talk) 19:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Ben, it can. When I came here I was under the impression that there was an honest disagreement about what was more neutral and useful for a non specialized reader. What I found was that the "myth" title was not being used in a neutral POV manner, but instead being used in a pejorative sense. Wikipedia editors cannot support end runs around neutrality.

Because of this, I must withdraw my support for the title's inclusion of the word "myth". Wikipedia must maintain NPOV, and Cush's obvious, public, and clear bias means that no neutral editor can support it. The choice of title is tainted as long as Cush is an active editor on this article. If he withdraws his biased statements, fine. If he cannot, then he must withdraw himself from the discussion until a truly neutral consensus is reached.EGMichaels (talk) 19:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On that note, because you're withdrawing your support on the basis of a problem with a single editor's actions / opinions / perceived bias your support one way or the other becomes more or less tainted and moot. Protest votes don't count towards consensus. Nefariousski (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a protest vote. It's a vote toward NPOV. I originally believed that "myth" represented NPOV, until Cush demonstrated otherwise. We CANNOT violate NPOV, even if we initially "like" something.EGMichaels (talk) 19:56, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you think neutrality is a product of editor intentions you're sorely mistaken. Cheers, Ben (talk) 20:06, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, neutrality is a product of collaborative editing from good faith editors who have different POVs, using notable and verifiable sources. We help each other achieve a balance. But we cannot do so if someone is merely trying to insult another editor or another POV. I'm merely arguing in favor of civility and neutrality. If you have a problem with that, then... cheers.EGMichaels (talk) 20:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course we can, we just ignore them. All work doesn't grind to a halt because one person hurts another person's feelings or just comes around to stir the pot. I'm not going to start going to church just because my athiest neighbor is an asshole and isn't nice to me. We all love civility and neutrality but when someone becomes uncivil or tries to skew neutrality we shouldn't resort to "I'm taking my ball and going home", nor should we resort to "I don't agree with x anymore because a person I don't like supports it" Nefariousski (talk) 20:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're still not getting me. I actually DO agree with Cush's view of geologic time. But I do NOT agree with the promotion of any POV. If we mean "myth" in a scholarly neutral way, it is a possible term to use. If we mean "falsehood" then we have a problem. Until Cush stated his intended meaning I supported the term myth, but NPOV requires that I reject obvious bias. While we don't take our balls and go home, we DO park our biases out of the discussion. If we as a group do not reject such stated bias, then we are complicit in it, and as such, are prohibited from using the term "myth." Either the term goes, or the bias goes. I really don't care which, because the avoidance of a biased laced term will accomplish the avoidance of the bias in the article. Your call. Shall we park the bias and keep the term, or toss both out?EGMichaels (talk) 20:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a poll. Your promise to contradict Cush's vote based on his attitude is inappropriate- argue what you actually believe (or can back up). If his views are absurd or deliberately offensive, they will be ignored. Duplicating response from below. Why are there two threads for this? --King Öomie 20:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EGMichaels, I don't have a problem with civility and neutrality at all, and I don't have a problem with you working towards them. I also agree that offering an argument based on a POV (as opposed to reliable sources on the topic) is unhelpful, and in the case of articles like this likely inflammatory. Still, you need to distinguish between neutrality as a concept and the neutrality-value of an article. The neutrality-value of an article, as a measure, depends on a concept of neutrality. Any contribution you make to an article, from a direct edit to the support or opposition of some proposal relating to the article (in this case a requested page move), should be guided by the concept of neutrality with the hope of moving the article toward the (unattainable) goal of an neutrality-value of "neutral". Notice that at no point here does some other editor come into play. Of course there do exist other editors, and they may not have neutrality as a concept in mind when editing, but who cares? If they present an argument based on a POV you simply point out that it's an invalid argument, you don't use their invalid argument as your new guide to making contributions. Cheers, Ben (talk) 20:45, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, I appreciate your somewhat idealistic view here. My only problem is that I cannot support a title that means, "Genesis Creation Lies." If that is a stated meaning of "Myth" on this talk page, AND OTHER EDITORS SAY NOTHING, then I cannot support the title. It's that simple. Either we can the MEANING of "Lies" or can the stated SYNONYM for "Lies." I'm astonished that you're differing with me, here. Cush is the one who is preventing us from using the term.EGMichaels (talk) 21:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that last comment just crossed the threshold of sanity. Your righteous indignation is starting to come off as outright ranting. Go for a walk around the block, have a drink, take a few deep breaths, read the FAQ and the footnotes on the article and if it helps skip over Cush's comments in your re-read. Nefariousski (talk) 21:09, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As a demonstration of the advice I just gave: The argument "I support this title because it means LIES" is just as invalid as the arguments "I oppose this title because it means LIES" and "I oppose this title because X thinks it means LIES". Cheers, Ben (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good job, Ben. Your turn Nef.EGMichaels (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone is having trouble following, Ben threaded the needle here. I still disagree with his conclusion, but not his stated neutrality. Ben is trying to show his choice to ignore an invalid argument when making his own choices. I'm arguing that we oppose a stated biased hijacking of our term so that we can be very clear that we are not ourselves biased when using the term. If we do not oppose the biased meaning, we shouldn't use the term, because other editors cannot read our minds, and silence could just as easily be complicity as not. Although Ben and I disagree with how neutrality is demonstrated on a talk page, I think we would each agree that the other is TRYING to accomplish neutrality on the talk page. This is what I meant by his "threading the needle." While I do not agree that my own approach is invalid, I DO agree that Ben's approach (once stated) is valid. I'll repeat my concern for other editors on this thread: I don't see you even stating some kind of neutrality here. I only see you arguing against my problem with using a term that we refuse to clear of bias.EGMichaels (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Prove me wrong -- don't tell me that insisting on clear NPOV usage is not sane. Instead, disagree with the editor who means, "Genesis Creation Lies." It's a simple thing for you to do.EGMichaels (talk) 21:13, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your entire POV arguement is based on things Cush said and prior to saying those things you felt the usage was fine. Therefore if cush ceased to exist at this very moment then the article would magically be NPOV? Please keep in mind the actual ARTICLE hasn't changed its text or usage throughout this entire discussion. We insist that the article have clear NPOV usage (which by way of citing definitions, a footnote, a FAQ, a wikilink to the main creation myth article etc...) we do very well. None of that is taken away because Cush made a POV comment on a talk page. Last I checked talk pages didn't have to be NPOV...

Frankly, I don't agree with either of you, I agree with the FAQ I posted above, and I agree that there is and should be no value judgement regarding veracity one way or the other when using the term "creation myth". I agree that due diligence to ensure readers and editors understand the formal meaning of the word "myth" is being used on this article and just a quick FYI, I've spoken out against editors who I thought were trying to stir the pot (although not with the fervor to which you seem to be partial) feel free to read archive 5 under the heading "This article is about a creation myth and also about a myth that is untrue". Nefariousski (talk) 21:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nef, I did note your tweaking of the article itself, and that was very appropriate. Nevertheless, people DO see talk pages. We can't very well expect people to believe we mean nothing pejorative when we SAY we mean something pejorative on the talk page. Cush said it, and NO ONE (until Ben) opposed it. That's a problem. Heck, even the creationist side said it was pejorative. That makes BOTH sides of the discussion agreeing on a pejorative meaning, with no opposing voices. In that situation, you either have to correct the talk page or the article. As I said before, I DON'T CARE WHICH. Either oppose the stated pejorative meaning when stated, or don't use the term.EGMichaels (talk) 21:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then "BE BOLD" and request that the comments you think are contrary to talkpage guidelines be archived. When Lisa made a whole new section calling attention to said comments and then a robust discussion regarding said comments takes place it only draws more attention to them. We don't feed trolls nor do we react when someone tries to kick over the beehive. I'm not saying that Cush intentionally stirred the pot but the end result was the same. As for the ultimatum I'd like to point out the FAQ above that many of us contributed to to specifically oppose any assumption of perjoritive usage and to clarify neutral intent. Just because we seek sanction of users or create talk page sections to call them out doesn't mean we haven't made our stance clear. It just means that we care more about making progress than arguing about who said what and who made who angry. Nefariousski (talk) 21:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nef, add up all the lines you spent arguing that you didn't need to disagree with Cush's stated meaning. All you had to do was disagree with it in a single line. You're trying too hard to avoid work. Consensus, unfortunately, is an ongoing thing. I came in here because there was a note for me to pop in with a fresh view. I didn't read all of the archived material and am not sure where to look. What I did do was take a look at the issue, and suggest that "myth" was appropriate as long as it wasn't being used by the editors to mean "lie." (those weren't my exact words, but the drift of it).

So I see the "story" side saying "myth is being used to mean lie".

And I see the "myth" side saying "myth is being used to mean lie".

And I see no opposing views.

That's consensus. Did you or someone else say something in the distant past? Maybe. But if I read your silence wrong, all you had to do was correct your silence. Instead you keep arguing with me that I'm not reading your silence right. I'M NOT A MIND READER -- nor should I have to research archived material supposedly written by a person who is refusing to merely repeat it NOW.EGMichaels (talk) 22:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bias and bad faith

Here thar be monsters

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Cush is an editor who refuses to edit in good faith or assume good faith on the part of others when it comes to anything he deems even marginally "theist".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Cush

This RfC ran without any results, other than the fact that it made Cush's bias known to some people who weren't already aware of it. Maybe the next step needs to be a post to the Admin noticeboard. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 19:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. But this page is for improving the article. Quietmarc (talk) 19:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Quietmarc, if you have concerns address it on his talkpage dont escalate hereWeaponbb7 (talk) 19:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do not create sections about or directed at specific editors.[23] --King Öomie 19:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone has some form of bias Lisa and considering the majority of your talk page comments are edit war / WP:3RR warnings a good case could be made that you have a solid history of not assuming good faith on the part of other editors when it comes to anything you deem to be marginally critical of your beliefs. Calling such things out (criticisms of a particular editor) on a talk page of an article is in poor taste and only makes you guilty of the same AGF violations of which you accuse others. Nefariousski (talk) 19:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think it very much belongs here, since Cush's obvious bias is causing trouble reaching consensus. As I stated before, I came here with the same conclusions Cush does about the proper titling of an article, but the sheer arrogance of his statements, insulting the intelligence of other good faith editors is making me wish I was not in agreement with his choice of title. This isn't what Wikipedia is here for. Lisa's link is both helpful and pertinent to the matter at hand: if arrogant statements can make people who agree want to back off, how much harder is it for those who disagree? Collaborative editing cannot thrive on this or any other article with this kind of bias being paraded around. The problem this article is having isn't the title -- it's Cush.EGMichaels (talk) 19:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not that is true (even though i completely agree). Wikipedia says we should use his talk page first.Weaponbb7 (talk) 19:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And what next, should we now all create sections to point out the obvious POV / AGF issues each of us think all of the other editors have? How about we just redirect the talk page to witch hunt.Nefariousski (talk) 19:36, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a general problem with Cush's editing style, this is not the proper avenue for discussion. See my link above. --King Öomie 19:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@EGMichaels: What do you want? Discuss forever and ever because some Christian and Jewish editors cannot accept that WP has to treat all faiths equally? And when editors start to make statements that they very well know are false, then the patience is over. We have had this nonsense going on for 5 years already. Every few months the fringe opinions that seek to make faith equal to actual research come up and mess up the articles that touch on issues concerning the Bible. You can see the sheer amount of useless talk on this page, can't you? And what is the reason for this? Faith. Fundamentalist faith. Is that the way to maintain an encyclopedia? CUSH 19:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How, in practice, would we "treat all faiths equally?" They are, in fact, different. Bus stop (talk) 19:48, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cush, the only "fundamentalist" behavior I see at the moment is your own. Perhaps you are a fundamentalist atheist. Whatever ism you have, you need to collaborate in a neutral and non-insulting manner toward other editors. I'm religious, and have the exact same understanding of geologic history that you do. I came here promoting the same article title you do. But I cannot abide by willful insults against the integrity and intelligence of other editors. It's abusive, uncivil, and is precisely the reason there is no collaboration here. I AGREE with your title and can't collaborate with you. Take a breather and be civil, Cush.EGMichaels (talk) 19:47, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EG, if you honestly believe Cush has some sort of agenda, sinister or otherwise might I suggest that you not feed into it and fork discussion towards editor vs. editor bickering. When, in the history of this article other editors make fire and brimstone, you're going to hell type comments to those in favor of current wording they were generally ignored instead of argued with over their beliefs. It was a personally difficult lesson for me to learn but in the end cooler heads prevail. Nefariousski (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nefariosski, please take a look at Cush's talk page. He makes no bones about it. I cannot support his choice of title because he claims to do so for non neutral reasons. We are not ALLOWED to violate NPOV, and therefore I am not ALLOWED to agree with his choice of title until he withdraws from the discussion. This is quite simple: either he stays and my vote for neutrality negates his vote for bias, or he takes a breather and at least gives neutral editors the option of considering his title. But no neutral editor is allowed to do so when the purpose is to violate NPOV.

So on that note look at Lisa's page, AFAPROF's page, Til's page etc... and notice how they make no bones about their beliefs either. Should we invalidate all of their statements because their obvious beliefs conflict with an assumption of neutrality? By that logic you can't vote either way because doing so would violate NPOV the other way and therefore the only choice (by your logic) is for you to not participate at all until anyone with a personal opinion one way or the other leaves the discussion. I suggest you read the WP:NPOV section on bias. We all have some sort of bias one way or another, because some choose to wear their bias on their sleeve doesn't necessarily mean that you have the same bias if you agree with them on an issue. Nefariousski (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nef -- you're not getting me. I SHARE Cush's POV about geologic events. But I do NOT share his need to crush or belittle all other POVs. We are here to collaborate, not obliterate. Anyone, from ANY POV who seeks to destroy collaborative editing must back off. That includes theists and atheists.EGMichaels (talk) 20:22, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a poll. Your promise to contradict Cush's vote based on his attitude is inappropriate- argue what you actually believe (or can back up). If his views are absurd or deliberately offensive, they will be ignored. --King Öomie 20:35, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that but I don't think you're getting me either. I SHARE your POV about how editors should be civil etc... But I do NOT share your need to switch sides to protest one editors actions. Nor do I share your need to drag out what amounts to a personal argument on the talk page of an article as opposed to a user talk page or the applicable noticeboard. Nefariousski (talk) 20:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even a broken (analogue) clock is right twice a day. Even if Cush has an extreme bias (I can't be bothered to care), in THIS case, he is on the side of wikipedia policy. There are reams and reams of archived pages here to pore over and think about on the subject of whether "Creation Myth" is appropriate and/or the best wording for this article (short answer: it is), and this debate - which has gone on for about 2 months now with no new arguments or (more importantly) valid sources - is getting tiresome. Those who disagree with the current wiki policies should take it up on the appropriate policy pages and instead use this space to improve this article 'within the bounds of Wikipedia policy'. Quietmarc (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quietmarc — The subject of the discussion is the article's title. I don't think anyone is discussing whether or not "creation myth" has a place within the body of the article. Bus stop (talk) 21:41, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree (and did agree) with the term "myth" if the editors actually mean it in a NPOV way. However, Cush stated an intention that myth would mean a biased synonym for "lies." Well, we can't title this article "Genesis Creation Lies." And we can't use synonyms for such either.

Had the other editors here immediately opposed Cush, then we could justifiably use the term "myth" and not be complicit in the NPOV violation. However, I see opposition to me instead of Cush.

As I've stated, I would support (and did support) the term with a clear NPOV usage. Cush has supported use of the term as a biased synonym for "lies."

Exactly WHICH editor do you really wish to disagree with?EGMichaels (talk) 21:08, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EditorS? I thought this was about Cush. And it can't be both? If you arguing on the side of Wikipedia policy results in someone else's hollow pedantic little victory, why the hell not? It seems silly to refuse to argue your own position because someone else might 'win' for the wrong reasons. --King Öomie 21:19, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kingdom, it's not hollow or pedantic to suggest that we don't title articles with a stated bias. Cush has stated the bias, and when I object, you disagree with ME. Well, that's a problem. Ben was able to thread the needle above, try it.EGMichaels (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

From my understanding, you agree with the 'creation myth' title, but refuse to argue that side because of WHY Cush agrees with it. I'm saying that doesn't matter, and you should argue the side you agree with, regardless of who's standing next to you. Also, that's an O, not a D, in the name. --King Öomie 21:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King, I agreed with the creation myth title IF we don't mean myth as a synonym for lie. I stated this in my first post. Cush expressly stated that he DOES mean it as a synonym for lie. The creationists AGREE that he means it as a synonym for lie. And no other editors were disagreeing with that stated meaning. That crosses the stated caveat in my original post. Either correct the talk page, or the article. But we cannot violate NPOV by using a term that we do not disagree means "lie." I'm not a mind reader, and other readers aren't either.EGMichaels (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So if a Nambla member came in and said that he supported the use of "Creation Story" because little boys like stories would you rush back to the Creation Myth side? Nefariousski (talk) 21:44, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd respond, but the example is a little weird.EGMichaels (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If Cush's POV was instead that Story was preferable because he sees it as 'more' untrue than myth, would you hold the opposite view? --King Öomie 21:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If that was the stated argument on the talk page, if the opposing side agreed, and if there were no stated dissenters, then there would be an expressed neutrality problem on the talk page. Here's the rub -- we edit by consensus, and that includes our stated meanings. Those arguing against myth argued on the basis that it meant "lie." Cush argued FOR myth on the same grounds. NO ONE stated a disagreement (except for me). That made the STATED consensus to be that myth was in fact being used in violation of NPOV policy. We aren't allowed to do that. I'm STILL waiting for you, King, to express a disagreement with Cush. The silence leaves the consensus of meaning to be "lie." We aren't mind readers, King. If you participate in a discussion, don't leave a consensus of meaning unopposed... unless you agree with it. Do you?EGMichaels (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think you might want to read about how "consensus" works on Wiki. Silence doesn't equal consent here esp considering that you can't expect every editor to be on and reading the same article at the same time. Do you honestly expect everyone to actively rage against every comment or editor that goes over the line? For the record I disagree with any value judgement regarding "truth or lie" or any other informal meanings being associated with the term "creation myth". So now that I've spoken out opposite of the "lie" statement I've neutralized the pov in your eyes right? Can we move on and continue with some semblance of constructive work? Nefariousski (talk) 22:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I have directly stated that Cush's motives and methods of argumentation are not my own. From above:

...Cush said, "The point is to treat all religions equal around here and to not give in to the judeochristian proselytizers." Bus stop (talk) 6:22 pm, 16 February 2010, last Tuesday (6 days ago) (UTC−5)

Ignore it, to be honest. I've been clear with Cush that this line of argumentation is only minutely connected to the issue at hand, and that it tends to derail the discussion into bouts of "Say WHAT now?". The opinions of Cush are "not necessarily those of NBC or its affiliates', etc etc, and it is not the line of reasoning driving the rest of us (that I know of). --King Öomie 11:06 pm, 16 February 2010, last Tuesday (6 days ago) (UTC−5)

--King Öomie 00:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Nef. That wasn't hard, was it?EGMichaels (talk) 22:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can we archive this thread, the next thread and the thread above please? Ben (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. No need to waste the talk page with this clutter. I think I stated the summary sufficiently below. But we may need to leave the summary statement in place for a few days.EGMichaels (talk) 23:23, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We can point anyone to it if need be. It won't be archived fully for another 15 days. Cheers, Ben (talk) 23:28, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Side note on this discussion

Here thar be monsters

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

An RfC on User:Cush's behavior has been opened at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Cush2.Weaponbb7 (talk) 21:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What's up with your edit summary?? I didn't delete anything, Although since 90% of the examples on the RFC are totally unrelated to this article maybe this section should be deleted. Nefariousski (talk) 22:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

uhm review your edits, i think it might have been accident but idk. secondly it is on topic for this thread of dicussion Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moving forward (derailed)

Now that the second page move request has closed, I think we can move forward. A few things that I can think of that need doing are:

Further development/refinement of the FAQ at the top of the page.
Rewrite the introductory sentence. It should be absolutely clear what the term myth means from the start.
Develop a section on the classification of Genesis 1-2 as myth, including the history of, disagreement with, etc, this classification.

I'm sure there are more suggestions, so feel free to list them. Perhaps one point at a time can be dealt with by creating a section on this talk page and chipping away at it. Additional thoughts? Cheers, Ben (talk) 02:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, ignoring input, moving input, or archiving input, does not help us move forward. This is a COLLABORATIVE effort. You need to include the relevant POVs, but shut them down. Have a little patience. I'm getting information from the other (silenced) participants to find out what is needed to have a stable article. Collaboration seems slower, but it ultimately is the only thing that sticks.EGMichaels (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, the only thought I have at the moment is that no consensus was reached to move OR retain the page title. The last two statements on the subject were mine and the person who archived the discussion, and both of us desired a less contentious title than either option.

This subject will keep coming up and creating way too much overhead. It's primarily the reason that I'm hesitant to edit articles on religious subjects -- too many editors are concerned with establishing or debunking someone's absolute truth.

As for your third point below, all meaningful accounts can be classified as myth, whether true, false, or happening right in front of your eyes. If it is a paradigm establishing event, it is mythical (I'm using the literary application of the term, but I'm into story structure). A fiction can be mythic. History can be mythic. Even a disagreement can become mythic because of the meaning created in the conflict itself. Even worse, however, is the problem of editors trying to establish within the article itself what is "myth" and what is "history" as if they are mutually exclusive. Isn't that assuming that no "myth" can be truly "historical?" And isn't that betraying the very meaning of "myth" you and I have collectively denounced?

Rather than closing the problem here, you are multiplying it in your very proposal.EGMichaels (talk) 03:26, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We went through an RM to get the page where it is now, and it succeeded. A new RM was created to move the page back and failed. I would say those two events constitute consensus for the current page title. I would welcome you to disagree, but, as this sections title hints at, I think it's time to move forward. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I wrote too little in my first post. I've clarified the third point since I think you misunderstood. Cheers, Ben (talk) 03:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. It's now worse. The classification of the Genesis account as myth will force you to argue in the article itself whether or why something is true or false. As for the RMs success or failure, my concern is that both titles are failures of true stability. The level of contention brought on either side and the length of history on this means that you will encounter this problem long after I'm gone (and others will encounter it long after you are gone) until a truly stable title is explored. While we don't have to do it now, we definitely need to keep this in mind for the next time (or the time after, or the time after). Sooner or later both sides will sit down and come up with a title they can live with. Simply subduing the opposition will not do the trick. And, even more to the point, pulling a fiat induced title into an active eploration on the article page itself will only multiply the problems. I don't care enough to beat this. But I don't care enough to pursue a course that will keep blowing up in our faces when another -- neutral -- alternative may be easily available. Do you WANT collaboration of all points of view? You seem decent enough. I would think so. Then trust me -- this isn't going to work without a LOT of elbow grease and constant babysitting. You're a braver man than I.EGMichaels (talk) 03:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My suggestion was and is "Genesis chapters one and two." It does not even touch upon the questions this issue has been about. It makes no mention of creation; it makes no mention of myth. It avoids all additional commentary. It only identifies the article. Bus stop (talk) 03:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think your belief that the title question is closed is entirely misplaced. The last RM close specificly leaves the matter open, & the two discussions are very odd. The first one, only open 4 days, had only one explicit "support" vote, apart from the nom also voting without disclosing that fact (did the closing admin realize?). The stated rationale for that support is just wierd, and other comments, such as Dab's, clearly favoured a Keep. The second one was arguably actually a "no consensus", despite the clear balance of votes in favour of a move, but defaulting to the dubious previous decision leaves the whole matter open, imo. Does Deletion Review take requested moves cases? That would be the best next step. Johnbod (talk) 04:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Balance of votes... WP isn't a democracy... Consensus is judged by quality of a position not by number of votes... you know the drill. What is another RM or RFC going to accomplish in so short of time? The above discussions will just be cut and pasted, someone will canvass for a change back to the original article title, a dozen editors will come in and write I agree that the article should be changed and nothing more and some folks will think that this actually counts towards consensus and then call the next closed RM or RFC to question as well. I'm not saying that the title is here and it's here to stay, but we can't expect different outcome in so short a time without any further development in the article, more research, fresh perspective etc... How about we just focus on improving the article, FAQ etc... through standard BRD for a month or so before we open up the can of worms again. Nefariousski (talk) 05:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can't very well improve an article without trying to reach a consensus. I see people trying to do anything but that here. An article has to have an agreed upon premise before people can figure out just WHAT to improve. The sudden closure and claim of victory with people so clearly troubled on one side and at least one person so clearly troubling on the other negates any consensus. You may create an article that pedantically argues in favor of "myth" to such an extent that people finally either come in to delete the entire article, or else create some kind of fork with another. Imagine that you mythologize this article and then someone else has a master article detailing the chapters of Genesis in a context that "myth" doesn't really serve the purpose of a literary summary. Then what? Then you have a finely constructed article that is so specialized that the only people who ever want to look at it are people who already share the singular POV shoehorned into the article.

I'm not comfortable wasting a lot of work trying to marginalize an article that should have a wider audience. The Genesis Creation Account is too notable and well known to be limited in this way. Should "myth" be treated in the article? Absolutely. Should the ENTIRE article be a pedantic attempt to force "myth" down the throats of half the world's population? uh, no. There is clearly no consensus for the current title. Maybe not one for the original one either. Neither side should be so married to their POV that they marginalize themselves into creating an unstable article. It's a huge waste of everyone's time, including your own.

Just take a look at the latest edits in the lede. Ben is forcing a series of sloppily written lines that can have only one purpose: pedantic editing. "The Genesis creation myth is the account of how the world was created according to the first two chapters of the Bible's Book of Genesis. It is made up of two consecutive narratives:"

Why have "myth" when you have "account"? Why have "account" if "myth" is the best word? A term should be clear enough to stand on it's own. "The book of Genesis opens with an account detailing the creation of the world in two consecutive narratives." That's tighter, clearer, less pedantic, and less repetitious. The only reason we can't have a well written article here is that we are trying to "move forward" from a pedantic premise.

As I've indicated before, I PERSONALLY have no problem with "myth". It does not offend me in the least. But no serious Wikipedia editor tries to alienate half of his readers and co-editors. Let's be serious here. There is no consensus for either title, and neither half of the planet should be marginalized. The article should represent BOTH POVs related here, and accurately report who says what and why. The current title, fine with me PERSONALLY, is an editorial fiasco.EGMichaels (talk) 09:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The time for discussing page titles is over. There have been two Requested Moves and an RFC processed and here we are at this article title. You can loathe that fact all you like, you rationalise it as "odd", "no consensus", whatever you want, but leave it off this talk page for at least the next few months. If participation in the development of this article is not something you want to do while it's titled this way, then don't. No-one is forcing you to be here, but it is time to move on from the article title. Ben (talk) 09:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's never time to proceed without consensus. Is it time to leave you alone with a fair warning that you are wasting your time? Perhaps. I do have a life. But keep in mind what you are doing: "we are forcing a fake consensus and telling you to shut up." That's not stable editing. Your "time to move forward" reminds me of an old southern expression: "the hurrieder you go, the behinder you get." Try to get consensus. A real one -- not a fake one -- and you greatly expand both your editorial work force, and your audience... with a tenth of the effort.EGMichaels (talk) 09:53, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've already noted that the first sentence needs to be rewritten, it's the second point at the top of this thread. Remember? It was just before you derailed this thread. Your assumption that half the planet (presumably every Christian and Jew and then some?) have a POV that would be against using the term myth is ridiculous. Your personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith are appalling. Enjoy that life of yours, ok? Ben (talk) 09:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, you invited help rewriting the first sentence and then undid whoever tried to help rewrite it without comment. You need to make up your mind. You're also trying to get help moving forward, and I'm actually TRYING to help you here. Having written a number of books, I can tell you that nothing is more painful than having 300 pages of manuscript that paints you into a dead end because of a bad premise. As I mentioned, I PERSONALLY have no trouble with "myth." And yet you say I "loathe" this somehow. The only trouble I have here is a certain POV pedantically trying to silence all dissent -- and now you're apparently trying to silence me for pointing out that you are silencing others. That's not collaborative editing, it's not moving forward, and it's not what Wikipedia is all about. This is a NPOV resource meant to give people information and citations they can use for further research in whatever direction their interest lies. Rather than derailing this thread, I'm trying to help you do exactly what you claim to want: move forward. Well, Ben, you are stuck in a cul-de-sac. The best way "forward" to the interstate is to "back out of your own driveway and get to the common road." Try it. Collaboration is pretty painless, and requires far less words like "loathe" and "get a life." Play well with others, and you'll have a nicer sandbox.EGMichaels (talk) 10:10, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Handy link to the "help" I undid for anyone wanting to check up on the first sentence in EGMichaels comment. The rest of the comment is of the same calibre as the first sentence. Ben (talk) 10:28, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly -- someone reworded a line that has caused (apparently) MONTHS of contention and megabytes of discussion. That looks like real help to me, and your threats to the person about "vandalism" were misplaced in this instance. I DO note that the individual did appear to vandalize an unrelated page, but your own threats on his talk page were not appropriate in this instance. Let's leave out the "loathe" comments (about a word I would PERSONALLY prefer if it weren't causing trouble), as well as the "appaling" comments about my attempts to foster real collaboration. And let's please stop threatening IP users when they aren't actually vandalizing our own article. You really do need to slow down a bit and seek COLLABORATION. That involves OTHER POVs. Your "enemies" here are really your best friends. Heck, I originally came in here supporting your own title (until I realized what a disaster it was). I was big enough to admit I was wrong. It didn't hurt at all (not even when you were jumping up and down about it).EGMichaels (talk) 10:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Enough. You've gone straight into personal attacks here, and that is not welcome. Consider this a warning. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:46, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support, Hand. We need people helping keep things civil. Please visit my talk page and help us brainstorm. I'm not allowing personal attacks there and will delete them when they occur. Neither side is allowed to attack the other.EGMichaels (talk) 16:48, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The warning was directed at you, EGM. And I would suggest you also be wary of WP:OWN. You've made several statements here that you "will not allow" things, and generally have given a very combative attitude. I would personally suggest you back off for a bit, as you seem to be taking this rather personally. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You missed, Hand. I'm the editor who doesn't care which title is used, since "myth" and "story" are synonyms. I'm also the editor trying to keep this offline in a civil forum where neither side is allowed to attack the other. I've offered to referee. If you'll look at my talk page, you'll note that so far "Genesis creation myth" has the greatest number of interested backers. It's not helpful to warn the wrong editor -- I'm not the one using terms like "loathe". Let's keep it civil, and please come to give your two cents. Right now your "side" has the most going for it. EGMichaels (talk) 17:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The wrong editor," eh? I'm sensing a lot of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. The discussion is about this article, and should remain here. I've made my stance clear already, and have no intention of feeding into your ownership issues. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I for one will immediately revert / fix any colloquial usage in the article or any attempt to use any informal synonyms. My stance isn't one of dogma or belief, it's one of using correct and precise terminology that is widely used and accepted in academic, encyclopedic, scholarly and theological circles in addition to ensuring uniform use across articles that discuss the different beliefs of different people (I don't just aim for proper usage on this article). Nefariousski (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, to quote other people from your side of the argument: move on already. We've discussed this already, and your view of 'formal usage' is clearly not the world-wide academic view. I for one, will continue to immediately revert/fix, any pov that is continually being pushed through here.

Talkpage Roundtable

I'm creating a neutral place to discuss the pros and cons of each option on my talk page. Mythologizers and non mythologizers are each welcome, but only in certain sections of the discussion. I think I can referee the organization of the page and give people some leeway.

My volunteering to be referee doesn't mean that I'm neutral. It just means that you all have a single person to blame if the waters get muddied. Everyone will KNOW it's completely my fault.

Another advantage is that we can move some of the discussion off this talk page and allow other subjects and sections to be discussed. There are itemizations that may need to be discussed about specific subtopics that are being ignored because of the title debate.

First, I want to know what options there are (a brainstorming section) and then the merits and demerits of each. The rules are my rules, but I'm being fair. I want to know what all the options are, what the real interest is, and what the merits of the various options are.

It may well be that those who are most interested in changing the title are least interested in building the article. If that's the case, then the weight of title choice should be for the editors who plan to hang around. I do NOT plan to hang around for a long time, and so I really have no stake either way.

But it does seem that the discussion has been unfair to both the article (too much clutter) and the dissenting view (too little regard). Hopefully taking it off page for a few days can enable us to remove the clutter and come back with a summary statement that ALL sides can agree with.EGMichaels (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion has already happened three times via an RFC and two RMs. You are of course welcome to discuss whatever you want on your talk page, but it will likely get little input from people who have had to justify the use of the term myth through those three discussions. It is also unreasonable to expect that input from people after three long discussions. I repeat my earlier suggestion, leave it for a few months. At this point any attempts to open another RM, RFC, or whatever are likely to be seen as disruptive per WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Cheers, Ben (talk) 16:05, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree discussion needs to continue. I would like the admin who closed this article to give more explanation. This is what it says here, "However, sometimes a requested move is filed in response to a recent move from a long existing name that cannot be undone without administrative help. Therefore, if the closer feels that no consensus has been reached, they may move the article back to the most recent stable name. In the event what the most recent stable name is is itself a matter of dispute, closers are expected to use their own judgment in determining the proper destination. If a discussion is ongoing or has not reached a reasonable conclusion, you may elect to re-list the discussion, though it is entirely optional and up to the closer." I would like to know these 2 things from the closing admins:

* they chose not to move it back to the "most recent stable name." Why?

* they chose not to "elect to re-list the discussion." Why? Cheers, SAE (talk) 16:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since the current article title was the result of an RM, it is the stable version. The current title is not the result of a drive-by move, which is what the text you're quoting is referring to. Ben (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you think the result of the page name move and the past week is "stable" then you live in a different world then me. SAE (talk) 16:42, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I asked above about whether the RfC was widely publicised. I received a correction on my mistaken understanding of WP:CENT (for which I am grateful) but no response on my main point. Was it widely publicised? WikiProjects? Signpost? VP? --Dweller (talk) 16:09, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to do an RM or an RFC. I'm trying to make a safe place to clear the air without cluttering this page. And in the process I'd like to catalogue the options and pros and cons for each. Part of the problem in this "discussion" so far is that people start arguing before they finish brainstorming. You have to look at the options first before you really know what you are discussing. For the record, I do see pros in the use of "myth." But there's no way to get a consensus if people aren't allowed to be included and fully listened to. As I said, you are welcome to list the pros and cons. I'm not going to allow argumentation -- just LISTING of what and why. We can use it for a reference later if another RM or RFC comes up.EGMichaels (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

* Con : Myth as it is used in the academic world continues to have the strong connotation of fable and legend. In a lay man's sense, it almost 100% means untruth. Editors here arguing for myth have shown that this too is their clear understanding of the word myth. Two reasons why myth cannot be used on a living religion, and at the same time remain npov. SAE (talk) 16:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

People keep making this claim, and I'm calling shenanigans. I support "myth" as the most neutral term. Second, "consensus" does not mean "unanimous," and it would do people well to quit saying that people aren't being listened to. The arguments were heard twice, and nothing has come of it. We've driven this subject into the dirt, and shouldn't have to do it again so soon. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Three times, an RFC and two RMs. Ben (talk) 16:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hand "We've driven this subject into the dirt, and shouldn't have to do it again so soon" -> then don't. it's this easy: stop refreshing this talk page. Now, I hope you're not trying to freeze a copy of this article right where you want it... that's not it, right? For a user that hasn't contributed at all to this article (except a few reverts in the last week that you call pov), I wonder why you are so vocal on the talk page that it not receive any further edits or discussion. SAE (talk) 17:06, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I came here because of concerns brought up at a notice board. Thanks for not WP:AGFing. That said, are you expecting us to debate this ad infinitum? At a certain point, we need to stop and get back to improving the article. If folks want to bring up the debate again in a few months, fine. Consensus can change, but right now it seems like the anti-myth folks want to sledgehammer their way into the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:49, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where are you coming from? Please do not accuse me improperly. Do I expect to debate this ad infinitum? No. But is there consensus? No. What makes you think we're done discussing? You, Tillman, and anyone else who says, 'move on' at this point seem just to be attempting to push your pov through. There is not yet consencus, and therefore the discussion will continue. If you are tired of it, than remove this page from your watchlist. SAE (talk) 18:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm coming from you making snide accusations that I'm here just to push an agenda. Again, consensus does not mean "everyone agrees." We've had this discussion three times already. I'm not going to just run away because you don't like me. I don't see any point in beating a dead horse. I've yet to see a reason for changing the article's name except "I don't like it" or "It might offend someone," neither of which is valid. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks -- let's please get this off of the article page. It's not constructive. Everyone knows that "myth" is a synonym for "story", and those who truly think so don't care which word is used. I'm one of those who doesn't care. If "myth" is a synonym for story, then "story" is a synonym for myth, and they are thus interchangable. However, it is certainly clear that some folks feel very strongly about this, and those who do (on both sides) are thus demonstrating that they do NOT regard them as interchangable. As Hand said, there may BE no possible consensus -- but (as Ben said), it's been beaten to death HERE and THIS page needs a rest.

As I said, I personally DO regard "myth" and "story" to be synonymous in the academic sense, and therefore interchangable. I therefore do not care which is used. But I DO care about civility and clutter on an article page. Let's move this offline and see if consensus is possible or impossible. If impossible, then the editors with the most permanent interest (possibly the "myth" side) should prevail.EGMichaels (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you seem to misunderstand what WP:CONSENSUS means. It does not mean "agreement by all parties." If you agree that there is no further point to debating on this talk page, then the matter is closed. User talk pages are not meant for forking article discussion. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:08, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand, you may want to discuss this with Ben first. Do you REALLY want me to move all of this here? I'll be happy to do so if you both insist. But I think Ben wants to give the page a break and I think he's right.

Let me know which you want -- a disussion here or there. If here, I'll move everything here. So far, your side has the most support. But that would simply be because there are so many other options splitting people's views.EGMichaels (talk) 17:12, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you and Ben want to discuss it, that's fine. But it would not be a centralized debate for the article, just two users discussing the article. It would have no bearing on establishing consensus here. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:15, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[I]t would not be a centralized debate for the article .. [i]t would have no bearing on establishing consensus here. <--- This is correct in so many ways. Though don't interpret that as an invitation to continue talking about the article title here. As I said above, I think it's time to move on. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, Hand -- you two can't have it both ways. Either the eight editors who've posted on my talk page are allowed to be here or there. But you can't just say, "You aren't allowed here or there either." You can own an article, but not a user page. Again, please make up your mind WHICH you want, and I'll have the postings listed either place you two agree on.EGMichaels (talk) 17:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EG, Before we continue this further would you do me the favor of reading through the FAQ and the linked policy pages. Particularly Q3 and Q2. We need to steer debate away from the generic term "MYTH" and focus on the term "Creation Myth" They have two distinct meanings different from one another and never once is "myth" used alone (see electoral college vs. college example). Arguements regarding the definitions of the word "myth" should be ignored all together per Q3, arguments that amount to an appeal to sensitivity or emotion should be generally ignored per Q2. Nefariousski (talk) 17:40, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nef. Thanks for the suggestion!

"Creation myth is a formal and proper term used by a wide range of academics and scholars (religious and secular) to define a supernatural account of how life, Earth and everything in general came into existence. This term does not imply falsehood unlike the way that the informal use of the word myth can."

Agreed. It should be used in this way. I think the concern is that it may not be used in this way. There's really no way to know with the heated nature of this talk page, and in fact the very heat of that nature gives me concerns that neither side is truly observing this ideal. A good litmus test is to find another word synonymous with the intended meaning. Those at peace with the synonym really are observing this first point. Those insisting on "myth" probably aren't using the term in this neutral sense. I'm personally fine with "myth", but I'm also fine with "story" as a synonym. I'm concerned that I may be in the minority (on either side) here.

"Wikipedia:WTA#Myth and Legend clearly states that myth in its informal sense should not be used but also clearly states that we should treat all faiths and beliefs the same (e.g. Not referring to a Christian belief on the one hand and a Hindu myth on the other). Thus all faith's creation myths are referred to as such in their respective articles as well."

As I've noted both here and on my talk page, consistency with other articles, including the "Creation Myths" article is an argument in favor of the use of the term. If you'll look on the chart on my talk page, I've put my name in the "Pro" section of "myth" for this reason. Nevertheless, Hindu "myths" are not listed in this article, and INTERNAL to this article, "myth" is therefore not required. A synonym is allowed (such as "story" or "account"). The Con (as I've listed for these two alternatives) is that all linking articles would have to be edited so that they read "Genesis creation myth" in the context of other creation myths while still linking with this present article -- regardless of how it is titled. Further, it has been proposed (I think it was Avi) that all living religions be treated the same, and I've made a comment to this effect on the talk page of your link above. "Myths" could be used for dead religions, and "Beliefs" or "Stories" could be used for living ones. I don't think anyone would be confused and suddenly convert to Hinduism/Christianity/Taoism (at the same time!) because the word "story" is used in all three. Wikireaders are more intelligent than that!

"Wikipedia:RNPOV states "editors should not avoid using terminology that has been established by the majority of the current reliable and notable sources on a topic out of sympathy for a particular point of view, or concern that readers may confuse the formal and informal meanings." This is also the main thrust of WP:NOT#CENSORED."

I think the concern is not to censor terms, but to use equally reliable terms or synonyms. It is a known convention in the real world to use "beliefs" or "accounts" or "narratives" or "stories" in place of "myth" when dealing with living religions. I think even Strunk and White would agree.

Ultimately the catch 22 here is the refusal to use synonyms. This was the first red flag for me. I initially came in promoting "myth" and am still fine with "myth" as long as the FAQs you've pointed out are truly being used. But the proof that they are NOT being followed is the refusal to substitute a synonym. If you cannot use a synonym, then you absolutely do NOT mean that synonym. I'm personally fine with "story" precisely because I DO mean it as a synonym for "myth." But my editorial concern with the title stems from the fact that I'm very much in the minority with that dual comfort level. In other words, the mutual discomfort on both sides is proof enough that neither side is following your FAQ sheet. And if not, then we need to use a synonym for what that FAQ claims to MEAN(instead of what it claims to SAY).EGMichaels (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The refusal to use synonyms comes from the fact that no other religious creation myth on Wikipedia uses a different term. We try to keep similar articles using similar name systems, per Wikipedia:Article titles. Using a synonym sets Judeo-Christian religions apart from the other religions on Wikipedia, thus creating an appearance of favoritism. If this is the crux of your issue, what you need is to propose a guideline to get all these articles named the same, not keep hammering on a single article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:29, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EG, you really need to give up your ownership issues. I never said "they aren't allowed," but that discussions on a User talk page have no bearing on an Article talk page's consensus. You're free to keep discussing it on your talk page and here if you want, but debates on your talk page cannot be considered for determining consensus here. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:52, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I'm willing to move all of those signed comments from eight editors here if you prefer. But then we'll have a problem with the real ownership issue, trying to prevent discussion both here AND there. Please list a place where those editors will be listened to, and I'll comply.EGMichaels (talk) 18:04, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Facepalm How many times are you not going to listen to what I'm saying? I'm not owning anything, I'm telling you how Wikipedia works. If they want to discuss it there, then come back here and present their argument, fine. I'm saying that if the discussion happens there, they still have to reach consensus with editors here afterwards. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:20, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now I'm confused about what you're saying. You're talking about Myth, the scholarly term, and Myth, meaning 'lie', like they're homonyms, not different definitions to the same word. If the context works for the first one better than the second, whatever secret intentions a given editor has don't matter. It's not like he's adding  to the page every time he types it. No additional meaning coats the term beyond its context. It sounds like you're saying "editors have to promise they won't MEAN one thing" instead of "editors have to promise that the context will point to the SCHOLARLY definition"- which it currently does. --King Öomie 18:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The question is what the title should be. The title should not have larded into it anyone's pet perception on what Genesis might be. I hear from no one that the title should invoke the holiness or the sacredness of this tract from a central document to one or more religions. But I hear numerous editors calling for a title that identifies that document and at the same time proclaims its inaccuracy. Anyone familiar with Wikipedia should realize right away that we (editors) are not supposed to be utilizing Wikipedia to promote our own personal views. Scientific evidence may demolish any shred of credibility this religious document may have. But the religious document itself should be identified in value neutral language. It is a story. There is no word in the English language more natural than "story" for referring to to the verbal description contained in Genesis chapters one and two. Myth implies spuriousness. Is it Wikipedia's role to take a stand on matters only tangentially related to the identification of this article? I don't think so. I think our sole responsibility is identifying the subject of this article. Some word should probably be used to refer to the contents of Genesis as covered by our article, and "story" does this with the least fanfare. "Story" accomplishes this without applying any "spin" vis-a-vis a science/religion debate that should play no role in naming this article. Bus stop (talk) 18:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's your question. And that's Cush. --King Öomie 18:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Myth implies spuriousness."

Good god. Is it POSSIBLE to win this whack-a-mole game? --King Öomie 18:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

King -- all I'm saying is that the scholarly use is strongly (though not totally) synonymous with "story." The only advantage to "myth" is the greater specificity of meaning (to include something both supernatural and not objectively true). Personally, I like the word "myth" better than "story" because a myth connotes something SUBJECTIVELY true -- i.e. a story with meaning. However, as I've noted, my comfort level with the synonym is in such apparent minority, that it appears that neither side is USING the term as a synonym for story. If I call a woman a lady (and I mean a synonym for woman), and she objects to the term because she's no one's wife -- I'll shrug my shoulders and call her whatever synonym she likes... because I truly MEAN the synonym. As I said before, it's a catch 22. Only those comfortable with BOTH "story" and "myth" are in compliance with the FAQ. Right now I'm the only person with that comfort. And you?EGMichaels (talk) 18:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Busstop, Genesis being a "Creation myth" is no more someone's pet perception than an alligator being a reptile. As for "story" i'd like you to compare the definitions of "creation myth" and "Story" and see which one has more of a fairy tale, false spin to it. There's no alternative definition for "creation myth" that implies fiction or falsehood as there is with story.

EG, I for one will immediately revert / fix any colloquial usage in the article or any attempt to use any informal synonyms. My stance isn't one of dogma or belief, it's one of using correct and precise terminology that is widely used and accepted in academic, encyclopedic, scholarly and theological circles in addition to ensuring uniform use across articles that discuss the different beliefs of different people (I don't just aim for proper usage on this article). Nefariousski (talk) 18:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nef -- I've noticed that you were doing that and appreciate that. In any case, I think we can satisy Ben's request that we minimize the impact here, and Hands requirement that everyone be ignored unless posting here. We can finish the categorization on my talk page and make a clear summary listing of each pro and con -- and people can just sign their own views with a quick four tildes once it moves here. But there are more people to hear from. Right now "Genesis creation myth" has a plurality, but not a majority. While consensis is not necessarily a vote, people's concerns should be clearly addressed and listened to, rather than dismissed out of hand. I'd like to make sure you're fairly represented in the summary as well. I wouldn't want the summary list to ignore the "myth" points.EGMichaels (talk) 19:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) You've set up a false dichotomy here. I'm not comfortable with "story" because it goes against WP:TITLE by making this Abrahamaic religious creation myth stand apart from all the other creation myths on Wikipedia. On Wikipedia, we don't just "shrug our shoulders" for folks because they personally take offense to a scholarly term used in a scholarly manner. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:55, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, after you did that, I'd be wondering why it is that there are 40 "ladies" in the room, and one "Ma'am". --King Öomie 19:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

LOL King!!! :-)

Hand, it's not being used in a scholarly way if its synonym gets THIS much opposition. Methinks thou dost protest too much.EGMichaels (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pot, meet kettle. You haven't assumed good faith since you started editing here. And I'm rapidly running out of good faith in you. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting statement, since I've seen a lot of good faith here (take a look at my talk page). My problem is that a lot of good faith editors are being told to sit down and shut up with "let's move on" or "this is a dead horse" etc. All I'm suggesting is that everything be clearly expressed, so that you at least know WHAT you are disagreeing with (and they know the same concerning you). And you have a problem with this because...??? Maybe I missed it. I'm saying everyone should be fairly considered, systematically presented, and neutrally reflected in the article. Well, that's just normal Wikipedia stuff. Granted, it seems abnormal here, but that's not my problem.EGMichaels (talk) 19:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm tired of banging my head into your wall, so this will be my last reply to this thread. We've hashed and re-hashed this issue several times already. It's in the archives, hell it's on this very page. If people don't want to be bothered to read the history of this debate, I don't know what to tell them. It's a dead horse because we've beaten it to death and nothing new has come of it. All I'm saying is let it be, and we can revisit it at a later time (hopefully when people have something new to contribute). I have a problem with people arguing for argument's sake, because it's disruptive to actually getting anything done. At a certain point, you need to put the stick down and work on something productive. But, some people seem to think that making the same arguments repeatedly is "discussing" things. As an example, see Bus Stop's comments below. We've already pointed out Wikipedia:Article naming, the fact that "creation myth" is neutral naming, among numerous other points, but it's the same old same old from him. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hand -- that's why we're systemetizing the options, pros, and cons on my talk page. When we are finished, we can present the summary here, and everyone interested can put their four tildes on it. It's obvious that at least one side isn't listening (and maybe both). So, it's useful to at least explore clearly and accurately what everyone is saying in an accessible format. The problem is that neither side is satisfied, and neither side (you included) feels like they've been heard -- and you are all correct about that! In any case, your own view still has a plurality. Relax, consensus and mutual listening CAN be achieved, even on a religion page (personally, I have a love/hate relationship with religious pages for that very reason: no one listens to each other... they're all afraid for their soul or brain).EGMichaels (talk) 19:43, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The title and the body of the article are two different things. What is good for the body of the article is not necessarily good for the title. The title merely introduces a topic. It should do so in the most plain manner possible. The title, as far as possible, should find its language in common terminology. "Story" is an especially common term in English. It also has the added benefit of being equally applicable to that which is true and that which is false. The reader doesn't come to the article to have their preexisting views supported or challenged, and the right title should reflect this. The right title should be a reflection of the open-mindedness that Wikipedia assumes to characterize its readers. Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Story is also an incredibly imprecise term that is often defined as Fiction (feel free to google the definition). "Creation Myth" on the other hand is very precise, only has one definition and does not imply any falsehood, or make any value judgement regarding truth one way or the other It is completely value neutral it just lists the simple boring facts. Additionally it is a common term across faiths which helps categorize this article and also keeps it in line with the vast majority of other encyclopedic sources and academic / scholarly research and literature. Nefariousski (talk) 19:38, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nef, if you were right, then the atheists would be demanding "story" and the theists would be demanding "myth." Er.... doesn't seem to be happening that way. Chin up! It WILL be okay.EGMichaels (talk) 19:45, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not OK to assume bad faith in your opponents so long as there are perfectly fine alternative explanations for a phenomenon. In this case, a bunch of biblical literalists or sympathisers of such started this whole affair with an absurd attack against use of the correct technical term "creation myth" in the lead. It seems quite possible to me that they were influenced by a belief in Wikipedia's "liberal bias" and motivated by assumptions of bad faith. Since there is nothing wrong with the term and they used an invalid argument against it (namely that any choice of words that implies the obvious and uncontroversial fact that the story is not literally true is somehow POV) opposition from the opposite camp was absolutely predictable. Since they were pushing a fringe theory (creationism), the fringe noticeboard was notified. The attention drawn to this article led to the discovery of the problem with its title. Please note how this natural interpretation of events does not involve anyone's bad faith. Hans Adler 20:23, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hans Adler — are you conceding that there is a problem with the title? You say, "The attention drawn to this article led to the discovery of the problem with its title." I am not trying to speak on your behalf. I am merely asking you a question. Bus stop (talk) 00:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me see... it's not ok to assume bad faith (agreed), but somehow it is perfectly fine to assume "a bunch of literalists" (not the ones posting on my talk page... at least half of whom -- including me -- don't even believe the account) or "absurd attacks" (again, all I see are expressions of neutrality and concerns against assumption of truth as well as falsehood) or "invalid arguments" (NPOV isn't invalid here) or "fringe theory" (neutrality expressed from disbelievers on my talk page do not resemble anything fringe). Uh huh. Gotcha. Feel free to check out the equal concerns against "account" (because it implies truth).EGMichaels (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EG, This isn't athiests vs theists. You are a prime example of someone of faith who is at least attempting to look at both sides. Lets for one minute remove obvious polarizing editors from the equation (on both sides) and you have those who for reasons stated in the FAQ prefer a precise, formally defined term "creation myth" (Not Myth as a stand alone term) and policy that supports said usage. Then you have those who support some alternative because they either don't grasp the concept that "Creation Myth" doesn't imply falsehood and they keep pushing on the component word "myth" (see the electoral college isn't an institute of higher learning because it contains the word college example) or they oppose the usage on a basis of feeling it is somehow offensive and that we can't expect users to understand that the "myth" in "creation myth" isn't being used informally (despite definitions, footnotes, wikilinks to the main CM page, a FAQ etc...). Nefariousski (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

EGMichaels, here are some aspects you seem to have missed:

I said "biblical literalists or sympathisers". Having been accused of being a homeopath on Talk:Homeopathy for trying to keep the insult "quackery" out of that article, I added the second part for a reason. (Just like the US has an unusually large number of biblical literalists, Germany has an unusally large number of homeopathy fans. This is an important factor for deciding how respectful to be when dealing with the respective fringe theory, resulting in conflicts even between non-believers from different cultural backgrounds.)
Apart from that, it appears to me that Historian2007 and Til Eulenspiegel are openly creationist. (Correct me if I am wrong.) These seemed to be among the most active opponents of the term "creation myth" when I first came to this article.
As far as Wikipedia is concerned, that Genesis isn't literally true is uncontroversial fact. Believe it or not, but that's how it is. If you don't believe it, get input from noticeboards. Saying that Genesis isn't literally true only touches WP:NPOV where it comes to matters of weight, see WP:UNDUE. It has been argued on this talk page that use of the term "creation myth" is POV because: (1) We only use it in bad faith to push an atheist POV (wrong). (2) It means "false creation story" (wrong). (3) It's a highly technical term (wrong) and therefore inappropriate (wrong). (4) The story might plausibly be just as literally true as the scientific view of the world's origin (wrong). How much more nonsense do you have to chain together before an argument becomes absurd?
"Creation account" is transparently a formation designed to avoid the word "myth", which is otherwise standard in this context. I maintain that "account" does have inappropriate connotations of literal truth, in contrast to the appropriate connotations of folklore that "myth" has. The term "creation account" likely predates the realisation that Genesis contains no more than an example of a literary genre; nowadays the term functions as a euphemism that is still used only for the Judeo-Christian creation myth. I admit that as far as I know it is probably the standard way of referring to this particular creation myth in English (I know that it is in German), which is a symptom of a systemic bias of the English language. We might be able to have an intelligent debate about the interesting conflict between two Wikipedia principles: Use of standard English and NPOV. We might. But we are not having such a debate because some people insist on pursuing red herrings. Hans Adler 21:32, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Contemplating deleting your sig and taking credit for that post. --King Öomie 21:35, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cant blame the guy, damn near everything we can say on this topic at this point has already been said a dozen times over by a dozen different editors, I've seen Gabbe use my Electoral College analogy a few times and so on. It gets boring just cutting and pasting your own previous comments ;) Nefariousski (talk) 23:39, 23 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are not talking about the body of the article. No one has ever suggested that the term "creation myth" should not appear in the body of the article. The topic of this discussion is what the title of the article should be. Bus stop (talk) 00:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks -- sorry I've been tied up. Geeze, a lot more words trying to keep me from finding out what people want! Whatever it is, it must be crazy scary. ;-)

In any case, to your points:

Nef -- my faith is not an issue. My editorial concern is. If you really must know, I approach "myth" and "religion" from a Joseph Campbell perspective. Of course religion is mythical! EVERY paradigm is (including atheism). "Myth" is what Robert McKee calls the "archplot" -- which he defines as the pattern of the human mind. C. G. Jung regarded this pattern as the collective unconscious, and Erich Neumann argued that all myths reflect the drive of the human being to separate his individuality from that core of basic human instinct (in Jungian terms, this is individuism). This depth psychology is the monomyth expressed by James Joyce to be the pattern of all narratives.

And the Bible is a narrative.

Also to quote McKee, "biography is fiction; auto-biography is fantasy." Rather than being a true believer, I'm probably the most pure religious cynic you'll ever meet. I don't buy ANY of it -- not even the atheist stuff. If I had to choose between the Pope and Hawking, I'd pick Hawking in a nanosecond. But I also see limitations from the best of our theories, and I also see that all of them, no matter how tied or divorced from "reality" become "myth" as soon as our reptilian overgrowth brains get a hold of them and start processing ultimate reality into some kind of pattern that's supposed to make sense.

So there you have it. My supposed "sympathy" with faith is no more profound than my sympathy for your own positions -- which is why I've asked for input and fairness all around.

You folks remind me of a woman in the mountains of North Carolina who gasped in shock when she found out that I liked to watch Star Trek: "you don't actually BELIEVE all of that stuff do you?" Well, sure I do. I believe any well told tale with a controlling idea. The Bible is "true" precisely BECAUSE it is "mythical." It fits the pattern of the human mind and creates meaning for billions of people.

I believe in Captain Kirk when the storyform is well designed.

Let's get out of the sandbox, stop shouting at each other, and actually listen to what is needed here.

The Bible is "myth". I mean "myth", not in a neutral sense, but in a positive sense. If a movie lacks myth, I walk out of it. If a book lacks myth, I trash it -- and this is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to history and science. We are human beings trying to communicate with other human beings, and that can only be done through "myth."

I find, then, that for all of your protestations, the "myth" side of this disagreement is the most enslaved to myth. You folks are the true believers pronouncing from on high that only one term can be used. You are the ones trying to dictate what ultimate "truth" all readers MUST embrace. And you hide behind scholarly "norms" that were merely created by other Wikipedia editors on the manual of style pages. Well, I didn't learn to write from Wikipedia. I learned from real sources like Strunk and White (love that delightful little tome of Anglo-Saxon sensibilities).

Strunk and White counseled writers to avoid "myth" when dealing with a living religion. Why? Because real writers want their readers to get their point, and they won't do it if they won't read it. So, according to notable and reliable sources the Wikipedia manual of style is not infallible.

As I said, I regard the Genesis account to be a "story" of the highest sort: "myth". "Myth" is my greatest compliment.

But because I MEAN a compliment, I refuse to be so sloppy a writer that I'll alienate my audience too quick to see my point. Now, in your case you are still arguing, but I suspect that's not my fault. When I suggest that all sides should be fair, you argue. When I suggest that all sides should be listened to, you argue. When I express sympathy for the "myth" side AND the "story" side, I'm treated as a "theist sympathizer." What is that like, a Nazi sympathizer?

It seemed like I was pulling teeth yesterday when I was trying to get SOMEONE, ANYONE to state an objection to Cush's insistence that "myth" really is intended to cure readers of their childish theism.

And I have the "myth" side arguing that "myth" really does mean "story" in a specific scholarly sense -- and yet demonstrating that they don't actually believe that statement because they so profoundly argue against the very synonym they claim to mean!

Sorry, folks -- but the supposed fanatics on my talk page have expressed a concern that neither "myth" nor "account" be used in the title -- since "myth" connotes "lie" and "account" connotes "truth." The DENOTATIONS are the same, but the connotations are too assumptive in a title.

Are they right? Maybe, maybe not. But those saying they are not allowed to breathe their view are most profoundly wrong.

Although consensus is not built by sheer numbers, nor even unanimous agreement -- it is neither built by silencing all dissent.

What is this, the all republican congress of eight years ago, or the all democrat congress of today? Your "enemies" are your best friends.

And yes, you "myth" folks are the best friends of the "story" folks. You each have human limitations of perspective, and need each other to save yourselves from POV violations.

Nef -- it's not that the "story" folks don't understand that you mean "myth" in a neutral way. It's that they do understand that you do not. The proof? This very disagreement. The proof that you don't MEAN "story" is that you refuse to even CONSIDER "story." I have a "wife". She is my "lover." To me those are synonyms, and I'll smile at either choice. Were I to object, you'd have every reason to question the state of my marriage.

Hans -- I'm a sympathizer with "myth" as well. Sue me.

As for the openly creationist folks... you know what? We NEED their input to help keep this article accessible to other creationist readers. Does that mean we have to censor what we say? Hardly, but if we REALLY mean "story" when we say "myth" then why not use the term? If you asked about my "lover" in a public forum, I might request you use the term "wife" in order to avoid any misdirection. Unless you were trying to insult my marriage by implying something neither of us CLAIM to believe, then you'd simply smile and use the synonym that means the same thing.

Again, avoidance of a synonym proves that you do not MEAN that synonym -- you in fact mean the opposite.

As for "uncontroversial fact" -- hogwash. I don't believe Genesis is literally true, but I don't CARE either. Wikipedia doesn't care any more than I do. It's not designed as literal truth. There are two narratives overlaying a Babylonian construct meant to create a paradigm of how humans are to regard their deity. This patriarchal construct uses parallelism to the two stories to show that man's relationship with God (the first narrative) is the same as a spousal relationship (the second narrative).

But arguing "this is true!" or "no, you dumbhead, it's not!" keeps everyone too distracted to see what the story DOES say. It's quite a lovely narrative sequence, but you'd never know from THIS discussion.

I'm reminded of a writer's conference I was in, where we discussed the controlling idea of the Godfather ("love of family leads to life of crime" a delightful ironic twist). One person kept arguing that crime was a bad thing. Well, sure. That's the whole point of an ironic controlling idea.

If you'd stop shouting for a spell and listen, you'd figure out that the other editors are reflecting half of the potential audience who will never read your pronouncements from on high ("this is MYTH, you dumb readers!"). No writer worth his salt deliberately turns off his audience. Instead, he co opts that other side and uses the other person's favorite terms to communicate the point that the writer wanted them to get -- much the way I'm ATTEMPTING to use your own term here to get my point across. If I don't succeed -- at least I tried.

I don't see you trying. That might work on Wikipedia, because you don't need to actually sell your hard work. You get the same zero pennies for half an audience that you'd get for a whole one, so why should you care?

Well, you shouldn't, if you like to continually argue and stop out any dissent when other editors try to help you improve the article.

Who knows? Maybe myth REALLY IS the best word! But you'd never know if you didn't at least listen to the other side.

And finally, the people posting on my talk page didn't like "creation account" any more than "creation myth" on the grounds that both violated Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Go figure.EGMichaels (talk) 02:00, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This debate will not stop until a real consensus is found. Masterhomer 08:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Moving forward: take two

Since the last thread was derailed almost instantly, I am trying to move forward again. I wrote above that I can think of a few things that need doing:

Further development/refinement of the FAQ at the top of the page.
Rewrite the introductory sentence. It should be absolutely clear what the term myth means from the start.
Develop the section on the classification of Genesis 1-2 as myth, including the history of, disagreement with, etc, this classification.

I'm sure there are more suggestions, so feel free to list them. Mildly Mad has had a go at rewriting the lead and I think it's much better, so perhaps we can just strike that one for now. I am a little concerned about it giving the impression creation was ex nihilo without discussion, but maybe we can discuss that issue in a separate thread (it will have to be dealt with at some point since it's mentioned in the third paragraph explicitly). Perhaps one point at a time can be dealt with by creating a section on this talk page and chipping away at it. Cheers, Ben (talk) 06:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

^ Browning, W. R. F. (1997). A Dictionary of the Bible (myth). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0192116918. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

[myth-2] While the term myth is often used colloquially to refer to "a false story", this article uses the term "creation myth" in the formal, academic meaning of "a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form."

[1] Browning, W. R. F. (1997). A Dictionary of the Bible (myth). Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0192116918. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

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