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March 17

Where can I buy potassium iodide pills?

All of the pharmacies in my town are sold out, and I need it within a week. --70.244.234.128 (talk) 00:22, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I assume you want these for protection against radionuclides from the Japanese nuclear power plant accidents? We cannot give advice on whether or not you should take these, and without knowing where you are located, are unlikely to be able to help with sourcing. You would probably do better to seek proper local medical advice. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:32, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Although it's worth noting that public-health officials in California are saying that potassium iodide only works after you have been exposed to radiation and is intended for people who are in close proximity to a radiation source, not thousands of miles away. And it has possible side effects. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Potassium iodide is not intended to remedy exposure to radiation per se. You take KI to prevent radio-iodine from accumulating in your thyroid. So the only time it's useful is if radio-iodine is present in your air, water, food, or anything else you're actually taking into your body. It doesn't do anything about radiation from outside your body, nor about any other radionuclide that you might ingest. --Trovatore (talk) 01:17, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

(Oh, it seems that radioiodine redirects to the article on I-131. To clarify, by "radio-iodine", I meant in principle any radioactive isotope of iodine, though I think it practice I-131 is indeed the main worry.) --Trovatore (talk) 01:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Try online, many places sell it. But first you should read this article where the surgeon general is recommending not taking them. They can be extremely harmful to people with shellfish allergies or thyroid conditions, on top of other side effects. In general, people are being recommended in California and elsewhere not to buy these unless they are directly near the source.AerobicFox (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Be extremely wary of buying any pills from an unknown source on the internet unless you can be absolutely certain you are getting the genuine article.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:35, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

In the US, the FDA shut down some online vendors of potassium iodate because they broke the US rule in which you can't advertise health claims about a product unless you've proved the claims with testing ... though it seems to me that via this rule, this type of product could never be offered for sale in the US. (While making any health claims, I suppose.) Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:12, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

MSNBC posted a story about 90 minutes ago about this: "Popping potassium iodide already? Really bad idea". Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:35, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Some people have really gone into panic mode about this. The WHO is now reporting iodine overdoses all around the world - [1] - what colossal overkill. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

How to identify my Independant Gas Transporter, UK?

I live on a new estate with gas coming via an Independant Gas Transporter. How can I find out who they are? Is there something I could decode from my gas bill?

The Ofgem website mentions "Independent Gas Transporter Network Codes" and "Uniform Network Code" but I cannot find any further details.

Note that I am trying to identify the gas transporter, not the gas supplier. Thanks 2.97.215.199 (talk) 20:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I would think if you phone the gas bill supplier with the gas meter number or account number they can tell you the answer. Sussexonian (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe, but would I hate to have any contact with them as they've already paid me a three figure sum in compensation for various bad/stupid/incompentent/delusional/dishonest/macho behaviours of their staff. Eeeh, its not on. 92.15.2.23 (talk) 15:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The first google result for "Independent Gas Transporter" [2] says it's something to do with an "M number (MPRN)" (Meter Point Reference Number, apparently) shown on your bill, and has a list of (all?) the IGTs, and a request form for if the number isn't shown on your bill. 81.131.53.219 (talk) 00:44, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Already seen that, thanks. It's four years out of date and does not cover the range of my 76... MPRN. 92.15.2.23 (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This PDF lists the number rangers for IGTs: www.igt-unc.co.uk/ewcommon/tools/download.ashx?docId=941 The MPRN can be found hidden in the small print of your gas bill. More information here: http://www.which.co.uk/switch/faqs/preparing-to-switch-faqs/how-do-i-find-my-gas-mprn-number . 92.15.2.23 (talk) 15:53, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Autocad etc

is autocadd (software) important for architectural engineers ? An architectural engineer can be as site engineer ? if he would not interested in designing the projects .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.52.158.245 (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that AutoCAD is used in the architecture industry, along with other competitors. StuRat (talk) 00:44, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

CAD programs in general are certainly very important, though each company has its own preference as to which it uses. There are a very few that still work mostly by hand, but they are particularly rare now. Computer programs can be even more important for engineers, who use them to measure precice details of the forces acting on the structure. Architects and engineers are usually two very different things, the architect makes the building look nice, the engineer makes it stand up, leading to some heated discussion between them at times, though there are a few that have made a point of taking both qualifications. To be either requres passing a long university course in one area or the other first. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 10:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I changed the title. "Hy" didn't seem to mean much. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 19:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

March 18

Dilemma

Somewhere I had read the story of creature that would die of starvation if fed in two pots at equal distance from it; it will starve while trying to make a choice as to which one is the nearest. I believe it could be fictional and that is why I did not go to RD(Science). Can anyone help me with it name? 14.139.128.14 (talk) 05:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I believe there are multiple examples in the folklore of different cultures, but the example most people probably think of is Buridan's ass. Does that help?  – OhioStandard (talk) 05:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes; that was it. Thank you. 14.139.128.14 (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The story is indeed fictional. Living creatures do not monitor everything in all directions continuously, instead they scan their environment taking samples of sensations at different times. The starving creature will choose the first pot that it notices. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, most creatures would head for the upwind pot because scent is a stronger motivation than vision, especially in rodents. Mammals will often rush from one to the other to see which is best. Sorry, this is "OR" from observation. Can anyone find any research? Dbfirs 08:27, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Turning the Sahara Desert into arable farmland, is it possible?

I have recently been thinking of this question and I haven't got a logical answer,would a great ammount of water do it or would it just dry out? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mickey 63 (talk • contribs) 14:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Probably not. Without a constant source of water, the same forces that made it dry in the first place will make it dry again. Chief among these is, of course, the lack of rain. Filling a desert full of water would increase the rain down-wind of the desert, but not much in the desert itself.

You may find the Rain follows the plow article interesting. APL (talk) 14:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the CIA once planned to flood the Qattara Depression, which would have somehow brought about peace in the Middle East. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

There is also the issue of soil quality. Deserts typically don't have a lot of nutrients in the soil (because there's no biological matter to provide nitrates, phosphates, etc, and poor soil quality often leads to desertification). This can be solved with fertilizer. Deserts also tend to have alkaline soils (I'm not sure about the Sahara), although using fertilizers will tend to increase acidity. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This discussion reminds me of Norman Borlaug, who saved millions of people from starvation with his innovations in agriculture in the Indian subcontinent. The article says, "Those elements that allowed Borlaug's projects to succeed in India and Pakistan, such as well-organized economies and transportation and irrigation systems, are severely lacking throughout Africa, posing additional obstacles to increasing yields." There is also the issue of whether the introduction of fertilizer would be good for the environment in Africa. The 5th and 6th paragraphs of this article discuss this debate. Unfortunately, as this article notes, the debate "is currently phrased mostly in environmental terms, not in terms of saving lives." --Viennese Waltz 15:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Some deserts tend to bloom after a minor rainfall. However the Sahara was once wet and this climate was dependant on the North African Monsoon. You may be interested in Oasis, Sahel drought, Canary Current, Nile Valley, Reforestation, Aoukar Depression, Cave of Swimmers and Climate change and agriculture. ~AH1^(TCU) 15:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

If I recall, the humans in Battlefield Earth do exactly this (probaby with the aformentioned Qattara Depression. In the book it worked, though I can't recall if there was any science in there to back up why (and any science presented by L. Ron Hubbard should probably be taken with a large grain of salt). i.m.canadian (talk) 18:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This discussion reminds me of an article I saw several years ago in The Wall Street Journal entitled, as I recall, "Africa can feed itself: Should it?". I observe that performing a web search for the phrase "Africa can feed itself" yields some very interesting results.  – OhioStandard (talk) 18:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, yes, arable land. "That is land that is actually tilled ... by Arabs". (Peter Cook).  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 18:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Nah, that's just Arab bull. :-) StuRat (talk) 19:08, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

There is also the Sahara Forest Project, seeking to use solar power to de-salinate seawater to use for growing stuff in the desert. A short Wikipedia article is at Seawater Greenhouse. Jørgen (talk) 19:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

To answer the OP. You cannot add water to sand and make it farmable. You need soil, specifically with a lot of top soil and nutrients. Sand will always just be sand, and will never grow anything, so certain parts of the Sahara will never really be arable.(until the continental plates shift of course, and it is no longer a desert)AerobicFox (talk) 21:38, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. If water was present, then plants, insects, and birds would soon appear, poop, and then die, steadily building up the soil. In a few years you would have land suitable for at least some crops, particularly if you were willing to add fertilizer to fix any deficiencies. However, since most crops can't tolerate much salt, you would need to flood the desert with fresh water, not salt-water from the Mediterranean. StuRat (talk) 22:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe in a few dozen years. Not something that will happen in 3-4 years. Googlemeister (talk) 16:38, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Here's a National Geographic article from a couple of years ago which suggests it is already happening: [3] ... but they weren't sure whether it was genuinely a trend or not. 81.131.22.230 (talk) 23:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

"Just add water" is a tried and true technique for turning desert into farmland. DOR (HK) (talk) 05:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

NBC color logo notch in blue feather

What is the significance of the open notch in the "Blue" feather? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.136.206 (talk) 15:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

It's supposed to be a peacock's head and tail. The "notch" is its beak Rojomoke (talk) 15:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Soggy pizza

I like to make Hawaiian pizza at home, as follows:

1) First I cook a frozen cheese pizza in a portable convection oven until the cheese melts (about 5 minutes).

2) Then I add cubed ham and pineapple chunks, and cook for another 5 minutes.

3) Finally, I garnish with flat leaf spinach and serve.

The problem is that both the ham and pineapple drip water onto the pizza when cooked, leaving it soggy. A microwave makes it even soggier. My convection oven recycles the air, and one that vents it might help, but probably not much. I don't think dehydrated ham and/or pineapple would taste the same, so that's not a solution. I am considering getting a dehydrater, not to dehydrate the ham and pineapple first, but to cook the pizza in there with the toppings, to hopefully dry it out a bit. Any thoughts on this or any other approach ? StuRat (talk) 20:41, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

My first thought is that that is just another clear sign that pineapple does not belong on a pizza. But leaving my personal pet peeves aside, have you tried adding the pineapple to the pizza during the first stage of your cooking cycle? Perhaps the longer cooking time will vaporise some of the excess juices of the pineapple? --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Then I'd have frozen cheese under it. StuRat (talk) 20:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you should try a conventional oven then? You have obviously cut a lot of corners already, it seems very optimistic to expect a flawless result under those conditions. --Saddhiyama (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

My convection oven is electric, while my conventional oven burns gas, so that introduces additional water vapor as a combustion product. I don't see how that would help. StuRat (talk) 21:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

That will be horrible. You'll have much better luck sauteing the ham and pineapple in a frying pan for a couple of minutes before adding them, and compensating by giving them less time in the oven. Looie496 (talk) 20:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Cook the dough until it forms a slight crust on top - then add the wet ingredients (which are room temperature or so). If you use olive oil on top of the bread, that will also prevent water from making the bread soggy (oil and water do not mix). Collect (talk) 21:31, 18 March 2011 (UTC) (Yes - buy pizza dough instead of a frozen pizza) Collect (talk) 21:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Have you patted the pineapple and ham quite dry? It should be extremely dry (not dehydrated) before being put on the pizza — pat them down with paper towels first. (Same with any "wet" pizza ingredients.) (Incidentally, if you have a food processor, making amazing pizza dough is dead easy and a lot cheaper than buying the pre-made crusts, even if you use wonderful flour. I'm quite partial to King Arthur flour for pizzas.) --Mr.98 (talk) 21:46, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Why not buy a frozen Hawaiian pizza - one with the ham and pinapple dry and already there? Astronaut (talk) 11:34, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The main reasons are cost and health. Any frozen pizza beyond cheese, pepperoni, and "combo" (pepperoni, sausage, and an "angel dusting" of green pepper) costs many times as much. I can get a 9-10 ounce frozen cheese pizza, without any added trans-fats, for $1. Also, if I add my own toppings I can control the fat, sodium, etc., better. StuRat (talk) 18:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

It actually isn't any more expensive to make your own pizza truly from scratch; the problem you are having is that you are starting from non-ideal conditions by working with a cheap frozen pizza. If you want a proper Hawaiian pizza, where you get a good, crispy crust and properly cooked ingredients, than my suggestion is:

1. Make your own dough. Its a pretty simple recipe, and while it does take some time, you can make it ahead of time and refigerate it for a day or two.
2. Buy a pizza stone. One of the problems with a home oven vis-a-vis commercial pizza ovens is that they aren't hot enough. Good pizza requires very fast cooking times, with the pizza cooked either via conduction by cooking directly on the metal (or ideally brick) floor of the oven, OR via radiation by cooking directly over an open flame. You really need a blistering hot surface to cook a pizza on, something that can hold the heat and transfer it quickly to the crust. Pizza stones allow you to do this at home; you preheat the oven with the stone in it, and the heavy mass of the stone means that it will hold enough heat energy so it can replicate the effect of commercial ovens.
3. Time is the key. There's a reason why cheap, frozen pizzas taste vastly inferior to those prepared in pizza restaurants, and its that you can't get something for nothing, temporally speaking. Proper pizza (indeed, all superior cooking) requires the proper time to be taken, and if shortcuts are taken, the result is obvious in the end product. If good pizza could be made quickly and cheaply and be of indistinguishable quality from the more carefully made pizza, everyone would be doing it. What you make up for in time you always get back in quality. Its just that the shortcuts you are taking (putting your own toppings on frozen pizza) literally cannot be optimized to produce a product of reasonably good quality. --Jayron32 00:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't take very long if you use the right recipe. We use "fast rising yeast" (check the baking section of the supermarket) and the whole thing takes, I don't know, 25 minutes total, if you have a food processor (which saves you having to knead it by hand). (Google "fast rising pizza dough" for lots of recipes.) OK, that's more than it takes to microwave something. But it's on part with what it takes to use a convection oven. And the product is much, much better. Way better than you'll get at your standard greasy cheese restaurant, too. (Though this has to do with buying good flour and fresh cheese, which make pretty much all the difference.) --Mr.98 (talk) 02:18, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Fully homemade pizza just wouldn't fit into my lifestyle. I typically might make a pizza during an online Scrabble game. During an opponent's turn, I put the frozen pizza in the convection oven. A few minutes later, I return and add toppings. A few minutes later, I grab the finished pizza and eat it in front of the computer while considering my next move. Each of these 3 breaks only takes about a minute. If instead I took a 25 minute break, then my timer would run out and I would lose. Also, I wouldn't want to have a dirty food processor that needs washing later on (my method generates zero dishes, as I use the cardboard box as the plate for the pizza). So, yes, I realize that given my constraints I won't have the best pizza in the world. I don't expect that, just something edible, and hopefully not soggy. StuRat (talk) 06:02, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

You can do all of the prep work ahead of time, and the actual down time during your scabble game can be quite minimal. You could literally do the crust one day when you have the 25 minutes, put it in the fridge, come back the next day, spread it out and add the sauce and cheese. Start playing scrabble, when you get hungry, throw on the pinapple and ham, toss it in the preheated oven. Your missing time from your scrabble game will be identical as the frozen pizza, if you only take the time to plan ahead knowing you are going to want pizza when you play scabble. That 25 minutes prep time doesn't have to take place during the scrabble game; after all, pizza restaurants don't start mixing the dough from first principles, they have everything ready to go, and toss the ingredients on and put it in the oven when you order it. You can do this too. This only takes some preparation ahead of time (what cooks call mise en place) and you will be ready to go. --Jayron32 22:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, thanks everyone. StuRat (talk) 15:36, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Weird TV colour problem

Over the past month or so, my TV has developed a strange condition where a large part of the left side of the screen is "paler" and in a different colour than the right. It's most noticeable when the colour is supposed to be red - it shows as bright yellow or brick-orange, depending on the shade of red. Blue comes out as a sort of sickly light purple. Dark green is just a paler green. Other colours seem unaffected. My sense is that the area has increased in size; it started as a small strip over near the left side, and even when I pointed it out to my partner, he couldn't see any problem. But now it takes up most of the left side of the screen, and I fear it's inexorably spreading. The TV is at least 10 years old, but that's not ancient in TV years. Needless to say, but I'm saying it anyway, it's just a TV, not an LCD/plasma. Is this a common problem (I've never heard of it before) and can it be fixed or will the screen or the whole apparatus need to be replaced? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 22:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

By "just a TV", I assume you mean a CRT. I had a similar problem and noticed that a magnet can affect the color. Try placing it on the affected side and moving it around a bit, to see if you can't improve the picture somewhat. However, I don't think there's a perfect cure, so it might be time to replace the old set. StuRat (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I expect the CRT shadow mask may be magnetised[4] though I think this normally gives a coloured area in the middle of the screen. TVs should demagnetise the mask when they are switched on.[5]. Maybe the degaussing has gone wrong. This says you may be able to degauss using a CRT computer monitor but I have my doubts (the site I wanted to link to is spam blacklisted so I am trying disguise: www.ehow.com/how_2041471_degauss-tv.html ). My CRT TV developed this fault many years ago but after a couple of days the colour problem faded away and the set was perfect again. No idea why but there is hope yet! Thincat (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to both. Could it have anything to do with sinister emanations from the set-top box, which is close by? (It's also on the left of the screen, which I how I know it's sinister.) I know that when I want to watch a DVD, I have to switch the set-top box off because it interferes with the picture. Although, even when I do that, the screen colour issue still seems to be there, so maybe I'm talking out of my own set-top box.  :) -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, interference is a possibility. I had a TV and computer monitor too close, and they messed with each other. Try moving them farther apart and see if that has an effect. You might also want to unplug the set-top box, as a test, since it still has some power to it, even when switched off. StuRat (talk) 23:20, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

We might be on to something there. I just tested a DVD and it showed no sign of the colour problem at all. Funny, last time I put one on, I could have sworn .... So, it's looking like an external interference problem rather than something internal to the TV set itself. The set-top box is on a fairly short lead at the moment, but I'll put it on an extension lead and get it away from the TV and see what happens. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:32, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Here is our relevant article on degaussing TVs. It's sounds like that might be the issue. I'm sure a Google search for that phrase will yield many more unofficial remedies. When this has happened to me in the past it's been solved by removing (or increasing the distance to) the nearby device which was putting out the offending EM interference (usually a speaker or subwoofer). The TV/monitor will then usually degauss itself after a short while. i.m.canadian (talk) 12:36, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:23, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I tried the above suggestions, but nothing worked. I checked in with the vendor of the set top box, and he said they do put out a magnetic field, but way too weak to cause the problem I was having; so moving it around was never going to have any effect, which it didn't. For as long I can remember, we've always turned the set on and off using the hand-held remote. It's never been turned off at the set itself since the day it was installed. He suggested we try that; this should trigger the internal degaussing mechanism. I turned it off, waited a while, turned it back on again, and hey presto! problem gone. It's been on for about 6 hours since then, and no sign of the problem coming back. But if it does, I'll know what do now. Kudos to User:Thincat, who provided the answer above ("TVs should demagnetise the mask when they are switched on") but I didn't interpret it properly. This feedback is brought to you as a public service. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:56, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lead and church roovs

We hear a lot in the news about lead being stolen from church roovs and sold for scrap, and I've always wondered why lead is used in their construction. Roovs on other buildings don't have it, or do they? TheRetroGuy (talk) 23:16, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

It is used because lead is very resistant to corrosion, and therefore helps in making a roof that won't leak. It is avoided nowadays in many places because where you have lead, you have a risk of lead poisoning. (The spelling is "roofs", by the way.) Looie496 (talk) 23:54, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Rooves is also accepted. But not roovs. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:25, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I would have said that rooves was rather more acceptable than roofs. Anyway, sheets of lead make a good waterproof casing on a shallow-pitched roof. This page shows some examples including the modern substitution of stainless steel (harder to work, but harder to remove). The dome of St Paul's Cathedral in London is covered with lead too - there isn't much else you could use. Alansplodge (talk) 02:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

"Hoof/hooves, Calf/calves, Roof/rooves, Dwarf/dwarves, Thief/thieves, Sheaf/sheaves, Leaf/leaves, Wolf/wolves, knife/knives, Half/halves. Life/lives. Wife/wives, Shelf/shelves" Or just be trendy and add an "s" rather than the older "ves." Be that as it may, U S Grant's house in Galena, IL supposedly still has the original lead covered roof from when he lived there circa 1860. The lead probably forms an oxide and remains stable for a long time. The copper has greater tensile strength. (Or maybe it was "terne," a tin-lead mixture over steel; it has been many years since I was there). Edison (talk) 02:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Roofs is standard American. Meriam-Webster doesn't include rooves.[6] (And Tolkien made up dwarves, instead of the standard dwarfs. "a piece of private bad grammar") Rmhermen (talk) 03:55, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Roofs is also the usual plural in modern British English (ever since Milton & Dryden), but rooves is an acceptable alternative here (I was taught it but don't use it). I can't compete with Ulysses Grant, but I am sitting under a roof with lead that is 120 years old and still mainly in excellent condition (most of it will last another few hundred years) except where grit washed down with rainwater has eroded it. Dbfirs 08:11, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

At the risk of spoiling the show by getting back on topic. UK church roofs (Collins Dict.) have the original lead replaced because it is legally required. This is to maintain the integrity and historical accuracy of the building under the Planning (Listed Buildings and Conservation Areas) Act 1990, which applies in the UK. The risk of lead poisoning to users of the church or casual passers by is vanishingly small. Modern buildings, by and large, don't use much lead because there are better materials now available that weren't available when the majority of churches were built and these buildings are not subject to the strict retrospective planning and conservation laws that prevail in the UK. Richard Avery (talk) 08:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, but it depends on the Listed building status of the church in question. Obviously some are allowed to replace lead with other materials - see the whowlettandsonsltd.co.uk link above. Alansplodge (talk) 20:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, if the roof has something sticking out such as a dormer window or chimney, lead flashing is used to provide a waterproof seal at the junction of the roof and the protrusion. There are more modern materials around, but they tend to be used on more modern buildings. However, I know of lead flashing being used round new-build dormer windows. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Lead ore is widely found[7] and its softness and low melting temperature 600°C have made it easy to work with since ancient times. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks everybody. TheRetroGuy (talk) 14:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Many rooves use copper, which turns green from verdigris. 92.24.178.214 (talk) 23:29, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Which is often considered a design plus. And copper is frequently stolen as well, in the US, can't speak of other countries. Corvus cornix_talk 18:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

March 19

bread making machine

I have a welbilt bread machine and want to know if I can use Baking Powder in recipies instead of yeast? Thanks,Leo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.218.12 (talk) 03:20, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Bread. Shadowjams (talk) 07:58, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

You'd probably end up with cake in your bread machine. Dbfirs 08:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Soda bread. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:54, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Try googling for bread machine baking powder or bread machine yeastless to find recipes. 88.112.59.31 (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Japan - Face masks.

I have been watching the unfolding Japanese earthquake/tsunami/nuclear horror stories with great sadness these past few days and my heart goes out to those folk who have been so savagely affected. But as an aside, I am left completely in the dark as to why so many people there are seen wearing clinical facemasks. It's common knowledge that they only prevent the inhalation of airborne diseases for a matter of minutes before being rendered useless. And their only other function is to prevent the exhalation of microscopic particles of mucus etc. My wife used to be particularly susceptible to airborne viruses on aeroplanes and took to wearing those masks as a barrier whenever we flew anywhere. But we were advised by our family doctor she was wasting her time - and her money. So what is it that those poor Japanese folk are trying to prevent by wearing them? 92.4.42.67 (talk) 10:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Hay fever. No, I'm not joking. Apparently the masks are worn outside routinely by Japanese hay fever sufferers. HiLo48 (talk) 10:50, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

(ec) (ec) @HiLo48: 110.225.161.141 (talk) 11:14, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

For allergy season, Japan turns to surgical masks. (ec) usually means "edit conflict". Why post (ec) (ec) ? Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article section about protective masks. Japan has its samurai tradition of mask wearing which is probably irrelevant, but the masks may give them a slight comfort in the present cold weather. There are also reasons for wearing a mask when rescuing or treating wounded survivors under crumbled masonry. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 11:16, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The Asian surgical mask 'phenomenon' is bewildering when westerners first see it. I remember the practice is heightened during pandemics like SARS, though it's been around for years. Here's a blog from 2009 that comments on it and the supposed rationale.[8] i.m.canadian (talk) 12:48, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

See Surgical mask#In popular culture. Astronaut (talk) 14:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it's almost a fad there. Elsewhere people wouldn't want to wear a surgical mask in public (unless it really was necessary), because it "looks so stupid". But, in Japan, so many people wear them that you don't need to worry about looking stupid. StuRat (talk) 17:47, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, mask wearing, and western attitudes to it, are all part of the logic of fashion. HiLo48 (talk) 19:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, how does their society handle the masks in security situations? Around here (USA) If I go into a bank with sunglasses on, they'll ask me to take them off, at least for a moment so they (and presumably the cameras) can see my entire face. If I also walked in with a surgical-mask on, I imagine they'd be hovering their finger over the panic button. APL (talk) 20:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I imagine security is more lax there. Similarly, if somebody walks into a US bank wearing a ski mask, guns might be drawn, but presumably not in Point Barrow, Alaska, on the coldest day of the year. StuRat (talk) 20:42, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently Wells Fargo has a branch in Barrow Alaska. I wonder if they get armored car delivery of $$$ or if they just use a pickup truck or sno-cat. Googlemeister (talk) 16:08, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Inhaling traffic pollution, and now also nuclear pollution. 92.24.178.214 (talk) 23:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Pick up a building and drop it a few inches (mm).

Take note of the amount of dust generated.

Do this with all the buildings in a very large area.

Attempt to clean up the mess.

Take note of the amount of dust generated.

DOR (HK) (talk) 05:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Chuck Norris

Everytime I listen to some epic music on youtube I'm bound to see some comment along the lines of "this is Chuck Norris' morning alarm, this music played while Chuck Norris sent his pet monkey to destroy a civilization". Can someone explain this? Sorry I'm not very familiar with pop culture. Money is tight (talk) 23:33, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

A read of Chuck Norris facts will probably help. HiLo48 (talk) 23:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Following on from the perfect answer HiLo48 gave... if your interest is stirred by the Chuck Norris based comments have a read of Internet memes, you'll no doubt start finding answers to more of these nagging questions. This website (http://knowyourmeme.com) is good if you're trying to find a bit of background to a meme. ny156uk (talk) 10:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

March 20

proposal of time in metric system

i propose to change time in sextant system to metric system. how and where i can publish my proposal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.92.158 (talk) 00:02, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There are many free services which will allow you to publish a blog or other free website. Blogger and Blogspot are good free blog sites that many people use. You could publish your information there. Be aware, however, that your idea may not be original or unique. See the Wikipedia article metric time and more relevently decimal time (which is probably what you mean by "metric time") for examples of such systems which have been implemented, to varying degrees of success, in the past. --Jayron32 00:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As a practical matter, what would be the motivation to change? Doesn't most everyone use the current system? The point of the metric system was to dispense with countless local systems and come up with a single standard. Since there's already a single standard for time (isn't there?) then I don't see what reason there would be to change it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:12, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason decimal time never caught on is that for a lot of standard "in your head" or "on paper" sorts of equations, it turns out not to be very useful when compared with our standard base-60 time. Computers somewhat get rid of that, but they also get rid of any real need for decimal time (whose main benefit seems to be the ability to convert between minutes, seconds, etc. much faster... which of course a computer can do without breaking a sweat). --Mr.98 (talk) 22:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Many moons ago I worked for a local authority here in the UK, and my time was kept using metric time. This was in the days before computers were widely available and it did my head in just trying to work out whether I was due any overtime or time in lieu! --TammyMoet (talk) 16:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There are exceptions. I used to use a scientific instrument that used decimal seconds. Typing in 90 gave you 9/10 of a minute, not 90 seconds like my microwave would do. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 17:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I expect it took you only 0.03333333333333333333333333333333333... hours to learn the system. Dbfirs 20:18, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Decimal time is still fairly widely used, so far as I'm aware, in punch-clocks and other devices that end up dealing with wages. My understanding is that it's used to facilitate easier summing for paychecks (8.25 hours x $12.62 is easier than 8 hours, 15 minutes times $12.62). Matt Deres (talk) 13:21, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Internet song generators

Does there exist any program on the internet, which can be used for free without having to be downloaded, into which one can input a set of lyrics and/or a melody and have it automatically generate a song?--99.251.211.17 (talk) 00:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

[9] comes to mind, but its definitely not what you're looking for. Schyler (one language) 02:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "generate a song"? If you have already written the the lyrics and melody, then you already have a song. If you mean you want it to generate a synthetic performance of the song, then it could be done, but speech synthesis isn't really up to the job (although it have improved enormously over the last few years, so it may be up to the job in a few more years). You can get a computer to play the melody for you, though, with any suitable MIDI software (I don't know anything in particular to recommend, but there must of loads of suitable software available to download that will do the job). --Tango (talk) 03:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

If Tango has it right, then I would recommend Finale (software) or any of its cheaper counterparts. Schyler (one language) 13:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Tango is correct, I did indeed mean to ask for a program that could generate a synthetic performance.--99.251.211.17 (talk) 14:51, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

There might be useful references in : Algorithmic composition 83.134.138.77 (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I have used Finale for years; they make a good product. Schyler (one language) 20:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Speech/singing synthesis is getting better and better, see, for example, Vocaloid. However, this software is not free nor on the web. Also, it does not fully synthesize the singing voice "from scratch", rather uses a large database of recordings of humans singing. As for the original question, there are things like Microsoft Songsmith, which I had not heard of before. From the description, it sounds fairly close to what you're asking for (except of course not free nor on the web, and it doesn't do the singing part). Pfly (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Topic: Mythology / Symbology

Does anyone know the relevance of the images printed on this coin?

Front: (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/coinfront.png/)

Back: (http://img641.imageshack.us/i/coinback.png/)

Thank you kindly, -- 221.98.87.23 (talk) 07:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The front side picture is really bad, do you have a better one ? StuRat (talk) 09:01, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

The back of the coin could look like Charon inviting dead souls into his ferry so they can cross the river Styx and enter the Netherworld. As far as I can see the front looks like a skull? In ancient Greece coins were placed on the eyes or in the mouth of the dead so they could pay Charon the fare of crossing the river. I am not sure whether that is a genuine coin though, as as far as I understand it, regular coins were used, not custom made "Charon"-coins, but I am no specialist on this, so I could be wrong. --Saddhiyama (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That's definitely Charon, we even have the exact same image in the danake article. The danake was one of the coins typically used as "Charon's obol" - which is a surprisingly enormous article itself. Here is the image. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:30, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Having seen the remake of Clash of the Titans, it revived a question I've had when the subject comes up: What could Charon possibly do with those coins? Is there a monetary system in the Underworld? Would he sometimes go topside and hang out at the local Greek pub? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:59, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It may have to do with one of the ways in which the practitioners of this rite perceived the nature of sacrifice. The special coins cost the sacrificer (the family or friend of the dead person, or the dead person themself if he/she had obtained them in anticipation) some significant value and effort to obtain. Symbolically offering them to the relevant psychopomp or other power - who presumably had no actual physical need or use for them - may have denoted the sacrificer's depth of commitment to the belief system involved, and such effort and commitment itself can further shape the sacrificer's attitudes. In more general sacrificial contexts, this works whether the sacrificed item is of purely monetary value, which has had to be committed to the purpose, something of more personal value, like a treasured possession, or something the sacrificer would themselves like to enjoy, like a glass of wine used as a libation. Put simply: it isn't the receiving that's important, it's the giving.

I can't say for sure that this is the way that payers of the Ferryman's Fee always perceived the matter, but this interpretation of sacrifice was taught to me by a (present-day) devotee of Minerva, so seemingly has classical foundations, and (ObPersonal) is also predominant in non-Classical forms of neo-Paganism such as Wicca. Note that it is quite distinct from the notion, deriving from ancient Judaic theology and elsewhere, that the blood - symbolising the life - of some living thing is in itself of value or desire to a sacrificed-to deity or power. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.201.110.155 (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Before Bugs suggests it: Perhaps he takes them to a Penny Arcadia. --Mr.98 (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This is evidently a pair of stills from a movie (one of the Batman movies, maybe? - I say that because two-face is usually depicted tossing a coin like this). we don't need to worry about it being real. the second image is Charon, and the first image (I'm fairly certain) is a representation of Janus. --Ludwigs2 22:16, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Can someone with a peanut/tree nut allergy eat foods that "may contain traces of nuts or peanuts"?

It seems like every food in existence has this on the label or words to that effect so what is safe for people with these allergies to eat? --112.213.142.13 (talk) 15:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

That is a personal medical matter and thus a question for a doctor who knows the person with the allergy. It is not a question for the Ref Desk. Bielle (talk) 16:03, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree fully. I'm sure there's general information here on wikipedia about allergies, but allergic reactions to anything can vary from mild to life-threatening. If there is genuine concern, consult a doctor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:10, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not a personal question, I am speaking generally do these foods usually get nuts in them or is the legal disclaimer just to cover the tiniest possibility that a fragment of nut could fall in one of the products? --112.213.142.13 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC).

It's possible it's an FDA regulation. Have you searched Google on this subject? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:13, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

In many cases those foods, although they don't intentionally contain nuts, may have been processed using machines that previously were used to process foods that contain nuts. Basically any food that is processed in a plant where nuts are used is likely to contain this warning, which is necessary because some people have nut allergies so severe that even tiny traces can cause them serious problems. Looie496 (talk) 17:52, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't sound to me like a request for advice, but Bielle is right that you should ask a doctor if you are wondering about any particular person's safety. See Peanut allergy for some descriptions of what can cause reactions. Apparently there is controversy about whether trace exposures can cause reactions. Staecker (talk) 16:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Check out the links from the FSA (Food Standards Agency) for the UK perspective on labelling (http://www.food.gov.uk/foodindustry/guidancenotes/labelregsguidance/maycontainguide). There is guidance for small business (here's the PDF link... http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/publication/allergyjamjar0109.pdf) which may be an interesting read. In terms of what peanut-sufferers can eat...well to be honest it shows up on a lot of things but there's a huge amount that it doesn't (hard to say what without going into my cupboards but most fresh/unprocessed food for example). ny156uk (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Worse is the food label that opaquely says, "This product was manufactured using equipment that also handles tree nuts". Here's an excuse from one company saying they can't clean the equipment afterwards. This doesn't help nut allergy sufferers much. Another offender is retailers like Starbucks which have an unhelpful notice on their food case saying "Some of the stuff in this food case contains nuts, but we're not going tell you which items", which smacks of an attempt to avoid legal liability rather than an attempt to, you know, help their customers not die. Comet Tuttle (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, my experience is that that specific sort of warning is really very helpful, since it quantifies the risk (shared equipment, not just shared building. No nuts deliberately included) and specifies that it was tree nuts, not ground nuts. It would be even better if they said which tree nuts, although those with an allergy to any tree nut will probably still avoid it. I certainly wouldn't trust them to clean the equipment between products, given that a tiny trace can be enough. Again, if anything among the selection at Starbucks contains peanuts, everything (including sometimes the air) is rendered unsafe for a peanut allergy sufferer. It doesn't matter which thing contains it: it's all unsafe. It would be helpful to say which allergens, but that's why you ask the people behind the counter. The best would be something like the packaging which says: "Ingredients: no nuts. Factory: no nuts. Supply chain: cannot guarantee no nuts", except specifying which nuts. 212.183.128.41 (talk) 20:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It varies. I've personally known someone with a severe allergy to have a moderately severe (trouble breathing, itching, vomiting, but throat didn't actually completely close) reaction to a cereal with a 'may contain' warning (a new addition, as they had recently switched to a new plant that was shared with a nutty cereal and at the time we weren't on a mailing list for this sort of thing), and each reaction can be different: you can't confidently predict how severe any given reaction will be. But an individual might, with some research or experience, decide that some of these warnings don't pose a genuine threat to them. For example, a generic 'may contain traces of nuts' warning when they definitely know that everything made in the entire factory involves only hazelnuts, and that this is not a problem for them. But this is a decision that can only be made individually: the allergy sufferer must know that the warning was there. Conversely, chocolate covered raisins (for example) are basically never going to be safe for a peanut allergy suffer, whether or not they carry a warning! So, it varies. 212.183.128.41 (talk) 20:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Irrevocable Life Insurance Trust

Does the trustee of an ILIT have any annual reporting requirements to the IRS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.142.163.28 (talk) 16:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Omar Bradley

How did the white American Omar Bradley come to have an Arabic prénom? 83.70.250.202 (talk) 17:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps from Omar (Bible)? DuncanHill (talk) 17:32, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

According to his autobiography, A General's Life, he was named after Omar D. Gray, a local newspaper editor at the place he was born. Looie496 (talk) 17:58, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Still begs the question. Why was Omar D. Gray (1869-1935) of Sturgeon, Missouri given that name? Nothing in his bio provides an answer. Edison (talk) 18:45, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Omar is a Biblical name, as noted by Duncan. It's not inherently an Arabic name. The first "Omar" that came to mind when I saw this question was the ballplayer Omar Vizquel, who's Hispanic, obviously. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

1989-1991 Belgian Motocross Grand Prix Race Results

Looking for the full race results. I'm trying to identify riders in photos I took at one of these races. I'm fairly confident I was at the 1991 race but it could have been any of the years above. I arrived in Germany late 1987 and left in Feb 1992. If at all possible, name, plate number, and make of motorcycle would be great. But I may be able to determine all that with just the name of the finishers.

Thanks, David — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flintlock42003 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Space shuttle launch; any discarded stuff left?

Hello! I was wondering... when NASA's space shuttle is launched, there's... well, a lot of flames. What equipment on the ground (there's always some technical-looking stuff very close by) has to be thrown away as a result of these vast amounts of flame and heat? Thank you in advance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.213.11.105 (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to ask my resident expert on the subject to comment, but one thing worth noting is that there is a large trench underneath the launch pad, whose purpose is dissipate the exhaust from the initial launch. That trench actually splits the halves of an artificially-built hill, which they had to do due to the high water table in that area. Or so they told us on the shuttle tour some years ago. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really sure. I think they do have to repair the pad after each launch. I would think that anything that is close enough to be damaged would not be that close unless it had to be. One thing though, most photos of the Shuttle launch are taken with a telephoto lens from a long way away, which "compresses" the images along the line of sight, so objects along the line of sight are not as close together as they appear. You might get a better answer in the Science area. Bubba73 ^{You talkin' to me?} 23:15, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Veteran space photographer Ralph Morse destroyed about half a dozen cameras capturing the first space shuttle launch in 1981...the violent launch sent them flying, and the cameras returned in pieces,.. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Launch Plan for a Human Services Organization

Define a launch plan for a human services organization.

Is this a homework question? If so, we can't help you: it's against our policy. --Tango (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't even understand the question!--85.211.227.56 (talk) 07:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well there is no question, only an instruction, which is what makes it smell of homework.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

March 21

Way too many models

Why do so many companies release way too many models in there lineup. I'm not even talking about a specific industry, everything from car companies to electronics companies often release so many models in the same class/category. Wouldn't it cost much less to focus on exceptionally well designed models that are very widely distributed? I imagine this would also vastly improve customer support, resalebability, fame/popularity/recognisibility, and so on. Despite all the alleged shorcomings of their devices, Apple Computer seems to have nailed this strategy down perfectly. They don't really have any competing products or redundancies. Other highly successfull companies like Sony, HP, and HTC seem to always have a massive ambiguous list of models that serve more or less the same niche, never become iconic, and aren't known well known or supported for very long. What's the advantage of this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto75780 (talk • contribs) 05:58, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Halo effect implies that not all of, say, Apple's products are exceptional, but the great trick is to achieve one or two exceptional, famous, widely-loved products so that the other products can bask in the glow. This sounds like a hopelessly optimistic thing to declare as a goal, and I expect that all major companies are hoping to do it with whatever their flagship product is, but they can't. You might also ask "why do so many bands release so many stodgy, similar-sounding tracks instead of concentrating on creating a hit?" 81.131.35.68 (talk) 06:25, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I can think two ways this can happen:

1) Due to merging companies. For example, General Motors was created by merging several different car and truck companies together, each of which had their own product line. This led to redundancy in models, but eliminating any of them might lose customers who remained loyal to that model.

2) For short-term benefits. While having too many models is bad in the long run, leading to higher costs and decreased brand recognition, in the short term it may increase sales, as people want to try out something "new". General Motors's Saturn division is an example of this.

So then, how can they get rid of all their redundant models ? One way is to discontinue models which are no longer profitable. (If the name of the model has value, while the product does not, the name can be transferred to a more successful product with a name that's less well-known.) Another approach is to make a single product but sell it as more than one model. In some cases this might involve minor cosmetic changes between them. The worst option seems to be to wait until bankruptcy, then eliminate a large number of models all at once. StuRat (talk) 07:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Offering a wide choice of models is a way of entering a competitive market at multiple price/performance levels, a way of sounding buyers' preferences, and is usually done using many common parts. It allows different product images to be promoted for the same underlying product, so-called "badge engineering", see the article Brand#Branding approaches. Individual models may be restricted to particular sales areas and price structures. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing for one single model per company, but the question was about companies which have redundant models. StuRat (talk) 10:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Planned obsolescence may play a part. In my experience, video equipment is one of the worst for that, where the EX690 model doesn't even have dust on it when the EX691 comes out. There's no real difference between them, so retailers can sell both at the same, with the EX691 marked up for the consumers who want the "cutting edge". Our article on product binning is a bit narrow; the process occurs in several industries and also results in multiple models on the same floor. Matt Deres (talk) 13:41, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

It is due to Product differentiation. By making a few cheap superficial changes you can charge different prices and appeal to different sectors of the market. 92.15.25.108 (talk) 14:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

You say that Apple has "Nailed" the strategy you suggest, of focusing in on a small number of products. I think that's more branding than anything else. For instance, Apple may be focusing on the "iPod", but actually there are actually a lot of iPods :

2gb iPod Shuffle (In Five colors)
8gb iPod Nano (In Seven Colors)
16GB iPod Nano (In Seven Colors)
8GB iPod Touch
32GB iPod Touch
64GB iPod Touch
160GB iPod Classic (In Two Colors)

And that's just the current models!

You want a laptop computer? Apple has you covered :

MacBook 2.4GHz : 250GB
MacBook Pro 13-inch: 2.3 GHz
MacBook Pro 13-inch: 2.7 GHz
MacBook Pro 15-inch: 2.0 GHz
MacBook Pro 15-inch: 2.2 GHz 
MacBook Pro 17-inch: 2.2 GHz 
MacBook Pro 17-inch: 2.3 GHz 
MacBook Air 11-inch : 64GB
MacBook Air 11-inch : 128GB
MacBook Air 13-Inch : 128GB
MacBook Air 13-Inch : 256GB

Sure, they're all called "MacBook", so you might not think that Apple has "too many products in their lineup", but it's really just a carefully crafted illusion. If Apple had given each one of these products their own name, and a slightly different style of case decorations, you'd think of them as separate products, now you think of them as 'versions' of the same product.

It's all a marketing illusion. Marketing is something that Apple is very good at. (Since Steve Jobs returned to the company.) APL (talk) 15:04, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Steve Jobs' return is key - to have this discipline you need a strong lead who can over-ride entrenched departmental support for the products that need to be eliminated. Internal lobbying to keep products can be very powerful and prevent weak CEOs from killing products they really should kill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

But what I'm saying is that it's at least as much about intentionally branding your products all the same. They've got eleven different laptops available right now and seven different mp3 players, it would have been easy to give them all different names and different visual styles. That wouldn't cost them anything.

They could have gone with the illusion of a "too many models" portfolio like the question-asker was complaining about without changing the products they sell.

I don't know enough marketing to know why this is a good idea or a bad one, but it sure seems to work for them.APL (talk) 00:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the model name actually describes the difference between them, that's fine. I certainly know the difference between an 11-inch screen and a 13-inch or 64Gb and 128. However, I have no idea what is different between a MacBook "Air" and "Pro", so that model designation isn't as useful to the consumer. If we switch to cars, then the difference between a coupe and sedan is obvious, as is 2WD versus 4WD, so putting those in model names makes more sense than random numbers and letters. StuRat (talk) 03:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Not that I'm an Apple fan but Air refers to light models, Pro to advanced heavier models. What's the difference between a coupe and sedan and how am I expected to know? Nil Einne (talk) 09:53, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You can be expected to know because those terms are standardized. When Toyota and Ford use the word "coupé", they both use it roughly the same way. "Pro" is ill-defined; sometimes it means "best", but not if another version is called "premium", for example - basically, it's marketing speak. "Air" is meaningless without context - why wouldn't they call it "light" or, ugh, "lite", which is a companion term to "pro" I've seen quite a few times? If you wanted to manufacture laptops and call the heavy one "Air" and the flimsy one "Pro" (lighter is always better, right?) it would be just as meaningful as what Apple's doing. But if you built a full-size station wagon and called it a "coupe", people wouldn't just be confused, you would be "wrong". Matt Deres (talk) 14:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the differences are pretty straightforward — if you actually look at any Apple product literature (or just go to a store) it is pretty clear. I mean, my parents know the essential difference at this point, and they aren't techy at all. All it takes is one person saying, "oh, the Airs are really light." I think the fact that "Pro" indicates "premium with more stuff" is pretty clear even if you don't know what are in them.

That's the level of information they are trying to convey, not specific technical data. It's for a different audience of consumer than the sort of person who wants to wade through technical specs. The essential strategy here is your consumer will say, "oh, I want a really light laptop" or "I don't care about lightness, but I don't think I need the top of the line features" or "I want the biggest, baddest laptop I can get," and once you've made that big, general distinction, your choices come down to how much more money you want to spend. It's a clever (and I think clearly proven successful) approach to selling computers to people who don't want to spend an hour researching graphics cards and bus speeds and things like that. From the consumer side of things there are essentially two choices to make, total: which broad category do you want, and then what level of features do you want. It's a lot easier for the casual consumer than wading through ten screens of customizations. My father loves his MacBook Pro because it took him about ten minutes to figure out which one he wanted and now he never has to worry about the technical stuff again. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:40, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. These terms are only standardised over time. And cars have existed a lot longer then laptops. It's not hardwired into our brains what coupé and sedan mean and these terms only mean what they mean because people have used them in that way for a long time. And as I'm sure makes Trovatore happy, there's no standardisation committee who decide what car related terms mean(Er maybe I was wrong about the last point but anyway the main point remains.) There's no reason why 50 years from now if cars go the way of the dodo but for some reason laptops remain and Steve Jobs succeeds in taking over the world everyone will know what a Pro and Air laptop is but no one will any idea what a coupé and sedan is and if suddenly someone starts making cars again (perhaps we come up with a magic solution for global warming) and they reverse the terms or use them in different ways few will bat an eyelid. Incidentally, it's obviously not true that lighter is always better. If you prefer lightness it's better in that way but even such a person will acknowledge when the heavier laptops have better features. Also even if you can argue Pro makes sense for light laptops, air for heavy feature laden laptops doesn't make sense in any way. In fact looking at the history of the terms coupé and sedan and the meaning nowadays it seems possible it would make more sense to reverse those terms. Nil Einne (talk) 01:55, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Trivia: colloquialism

What is the source (or inspiration) of the term "milking the clock"? Usmale48 (talk) 15:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC) JTC,JR

The OED doesn't have an entry for milk the clock specifically, but it does give as one definition of milk "a. trans. To deprive or defraud (a person, etc.) (†from, of money, etc.), esp. by taking regular amounts over a period of time; to exploit, turn into a source of (freq. illicit) profit, advantage, information, etc.; to extract all possible advantage from. Also (in extended use): to drain away the contents from (in figurative contexts)," with examples going back to 1531. It also gives "b. intr. to milk dry: to drain completely of resources; to exploit exhaustively," with cited examples back to 1849, and "To elicit (something), to draw out; to extract or extort (money, advantage, information, etc.) from a person, business, situation, etc. Also: to drain away, out of from a person," examples to 1628. So it appears that the idea behind the term is of long standing. Thus far I have not found anything definitive for the actual phrase. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:01, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The earliest citation I can personally find is from the New York Times Jan. 20, 1985 "KNICKS DEFEAT HAWKS.(Sports Desk)." The quote is: "We wanted to milk the clock down to about eight or nine seconds, said the Knick coach, then bring it to the side and try to get it to Tucker. If not then to Cummings or Orr. But they were playing both of them real tough. It was real big shot for Darrell." 1985 is the outer edge of the database's coverage, however, so I'm quite confident there are older examples out there. The NYT website yields a possible hit for Dec. 22, 1974: "Raiders' Frustration Ended," but it's not freely available and I'm not motivated enough to go load a spool of microfilm right this moment. --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Posting this question at the Languages ref. desk would be more appropriate. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:17, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Future predictions, tested empirically?

Hi there - The business of predicting the future seems to have become somewhat more respectable the last few years, and I am looking for occasions when economists, political scientists, historians etc (not quacks and astrologers) have gone on record with predictions of trends or changes in a 10-20 year timeframe, and what kind of trends there are around accuracy. ie -is there better accuracy about some areas, geopolitics, economics, environmental etc? Does accuracy decline linearly, or does it fall off rapidly past a certain point? I'm really looking for an evaluation of the efficacy of this kind of thing - ideally I'd like to look at people who made predictions in 2000, and follow up ten years later or something like that. Any ideas whether someone has done this already, or on where to start? Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:31, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

We have an article about this, futurology. Looie496 (talk) 18:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks - unfortunately it does not address the questions of efficacy that I'm asking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 18:57, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that so many people make predictions that some of them will inevitably be right just by random chance. That means you need to be very careful how you select the predictions you include in your sample. You probably want to consider just predictions of people that are good at making predictions (we already know there are lots of people that are terrible at it, we're interested in whether it is possible to be good at it), but you need to make sure they aren't just lucky. That probably means finding someone that is consistently accurate. So, for example, you could look at all the predictions make in 1990 about 2000 and then reject everyone that was inaccurate and then look at the predictions they made in 2000 about 2010 and take an average of the accuracy of those that will give you an idea of the actual level of accuracy that is possible. Unfortunately, that is a lot of work! Also, there aren't many people that make long-term predictions repeatedly over a long period of time. --Tango (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

If you're thinking of psychics and whatnot, some of their highest profile predictions are kept secret. Often times in missing persons cases, psychics will offer advice on the condition that their predictions not be released unless it's successful!

That's done intentionally to prevent the sort of hit/miss tally you're trying to find. APL (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. thanks - that is an issue. I found at least one interesting article looking at the predictions from the Limits to Growth study 30 years ago here:http://www.csiro.au/files/files/plje.pdf - that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, I was imagining that some of the larger futurist consulting houses might have this kind of thing, but the fact that I can't find it easily on their websites makes me think maybe they don't. There are also of course issues around specificity and accuracy when you get into it. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.106.4 (talk) 20:30, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The science fiction pioneer Hugo Gernsback in his delightfully tacky novel Ralph 124C 41+ successfully predicted in 1911 television, remote-control power transmission, the video phone, transcontinental air service, solar energy in practical use, sound movies, synthetic milk and foods, artificial cloth, voiceprinting, tape recorders, spaceflight, and gave the first accurate description of radar. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 21:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for my pair of Platinum-Barium-Arturium Eyeglasses, though. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:15, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Somewhere I recently read an account of a study (I'll have to look it up, it is somewhere nearby...) where someone tallied up a number of predictions by scientists, engineers, and futurists over the past 60 years, and the "success" rate (even with rather modest predictions) was something like 30%. Which isn't that great, though you can always pick out a few exceptional ones and say, "my god, what a genius!" and ignoring all of the false ones. --Mr.98 (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Fish on a Friday

What is the origin of eating fish on a friday, I always used to assume that this was because it was a Catholic thing and was done because it was the sabbath and that Jesus was a fisherman. However from reading the wikipedia front page article about the battle of Ohrid, and how they fed on the fish, it states that this was a tradition that was done by Byzantinian Kings. That is to say that the Byzantinin Kings ate fish on a friday. Now they were not Christians and they were not Jews either, so I am curious to gather further information concerning this, please and thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.144.75 (talk) 22:55, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

The article Fasting and abstinence in the Roman Catholic Church is not exactly definitive on the fish question, but it talks about abstinence in general terms. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Pure OR here, but folklore around where I grew up in Australia was that the tradition came from Catholic Church edicts designed to commercially assist fishermen, maybe a few hundred years ago. HiLo48 (talk) 01:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting. I never heard that one. The rule was simply that meat must not be eaten on Friday. Anything else was fair game (pun), which is a wide field of choice, but for people used to having "meat and three veg" every dinner, fish would have the obvious replacement, being the "meat of the sea", so to speak. For families particularly, a fish meal would have been more suitable than a vegetarian concoction, given how kids are particularly fussy about which veges they will eat. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The kings (or emperors) of the Byzantine Empire at the time of the Battle of Ohrid certainly were christians, the remains of a very powerful and influential christian empire. Abstinence from meat on significant days probably simply slowly grew into a tradition of eating fish, although there are various legends about it, such a deal struck between a pope and the fishing industry. meltBanana 01:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC) Oops seems this battle was just after the fall of Byzantium, but it clearly means the christian emperors. meltBanana 04:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of financial considerations (which I would not at all disbelieve), there's the fact that Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice on a Friday, so abstaining from meat was probably seen as a good way to honor it... as well as referencing Jesus' words about his disciples, many of whom were in the fishing business, as becoming "fishers of men." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Friday wasn't the Sabbath. Marnanel (talk) 11:55, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Right. Saturday was the Sabbath (and still is, actually) while Friday was crucifixion day. As I recall from Sunday School many years ago, some were wanting it to be over before sunset - when the Sabbath would begin. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly, if slightly off topic, Capybara meat is considered not-meat for the purposes of meatless Fridays, and consequently becomes very popular during Lent in Latin America [10]. It's a similar thing with fish: fish aren't considered meat, so they're allowed even when meat is not. Buddy431 (talk) 19:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the capybara population is a bit thin, is squirrel acceptable? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

No. Squirrel is a type of meat. Capybara is a type of fish. --Carnildo (talk) 00:03, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Rather an odd-looking fish. Looks more like an oversized guinea pig. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

March 22

Fairies

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, has written a serious treatise about existence of fairies. Other serious writers, Colin Wilson etc. have also written at length about them. I want to know that are there any proofs about existence of these mysterious creatures in West today ? I would like to know if any people reading my words have any firsthand experience ( or any of yours friends or relatives ). Jon Ascton  (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

We still have the same evidence that convinced Doyle. See Cottingley Fairies.

APL (talk) 00:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It is a question as to how one would detect he was in the presence of a fairy. Edison (talk) 01:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if you realize how this question begs for some smart-aleck answers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:25, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

No, Bugs, the point is actually this - why there is so much fuss over something that does not exist ! I won't mind if it were something limited to kid-talk, but such great writers making such claims...

That was over a century ago. A great scientist of that era thought he saw canals on Mars, too. (Maybe they were dug by those fairies.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The Martian canals were a combination of low-quality telescope optics and a tendency for the human vision system to see straight lines in low-quality images. --Carnildo (talk) 00:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

We have an article on Faeries. And I highly recommend an excellent short story in the New Yorker a year or two back about a Faery King and Queen and the human boy they want to keep: A Tiny Feast, Chris Adrian, April 20, 2009. WikiDao ☯ 02:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, WikiDao. Read the story. "...vanished even before their eyes could register them..." Well, now I know why I don't see 'em !

It's not so much the fact that an eminent novelist believed in them that fascinates me. It's the belief across Europe, at least, of mythical small creatures visible only to certain people at certain times. Pixies, faeries, goblins, dwarves, leprechauns... what is the original myth for these? Why is it so widespread? --TammyMoet (talk) 09:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

And why we never hear about them in India ?

Maybe the polytheistic nature of Hinduism circumvents any cultural "need" for these little immortal creatures in a supposedly monotheistic culture? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:46, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

In the late 19th and early 20th century, there were many very clever people who were spiritualists, Conan Doyle being one of them. For Conan Doyle, spiritualism held out an alternative to a harshly materialist world. Keep in mind that all of this is happening in the context of the late Victorian industrial revolution, of the debates about Darwinism, in the discussions of Marxism, and the professionalization of the scientific community.

In hindsight, Conan Doyle looks rather foolish. The Cottingley Fairies are obvious fakes, and looking at them today it's hard to see why anyone intelligent would have found them compelling. Consider though that photography was still a pretty new medium, and people were not as savvy about photographic fakery as they are in the age of Photoshop. And even today, there are people who are astonished to find out that people will baldly lie about things for publicity or just for fun. For Doyle in particular it is hard not to hard a large dollop of "I want to believe". And indeed, I think UFO conspiracy theories are probably our century's spiritualism — in 100 years, people will look back on all that blurry footage and say, "why did they find this compelling, exactly?" --Mr.98 (talk) 16:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

What would a shy, undressed woman cover first?

I'm curious as to what women instinctively cover when they find themselves undressed in front of strangers.

In certain pictures I've seen displayed in art galleries, the sitter covers her pubes with her hands. In certain others, she covers her breasts with one arm, and her pubes with the other.

But outside the art world, things seem different. In several pictures from the Holocaust (World War II) undressed prisoners are all shown covering their breasts with their hands—seemingly not concerned with others seeing their pubes. (This is alluded to, albeit fictionally, in a scene from the movie Schindler's list).

Has anybody ever conducted any kind of reliable survey of (non-exhibitionist) women? Would the typical shy woman just want to ensure that her breasts are securely covered, and not really care about who sees her pubes? Pine (talk) 00:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Read somewhere that an Arab woman, under such condition would rather cover her face ( and won't bother about breast or pubes... Jon Ascton  (talk)

I've also heard that. Never seen a survey on the subject, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:05, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I read this story as an anecdote about the woman in a sorority house who was leaving the shower with a towel too small to cover everything, and was surprised by a male walking through the hallway. Thinking quickly, she covered up her head in order to anonymize herself. This was several decades ago and I would have said I read this in Reader's Digest, but the average age of a Reader's Digest reader is about 300, and 300-year-olds' heads explode when reading about nudity, so it may have been somewhere else. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

This illustration[11] doesn't answer the question definitively, but it relates. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Why would a sitting woman cover her pubes? Surely they are not visible? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.4.187.76 (talk) 07:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Pubes (singular, two syllables) is the Latin name for the pubic area; you seem to be confusing it with the identically-spelt monosyllabic word which is the plural of the English word "pube", short for "pubic hair". Marnanel (talk) 12:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You mean pubis. And this question should IMHO have been deleted, see the discussion here. --Viennese Waltz 12:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes. And yes. Two of us tried, but objections were raised, so here it sits. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:14, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Between here and the talk page, at least 4 editors (me included) agree that this section should be zapped. Or rather re-re-zapped. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:37, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I recall reading that centuries ago, some far eastern women would cover their knees. 92.15.6.157 (talk) 11:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If the question is sincere, the OP could start with Modesty and see where it leads. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Not a complete answer by any means, but we learn from National Geographic Magazine that not all cultures require women to cover their breasts. So if there's an instinctive urge to do so, it can't be too strong. APL (talk) 14:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The person posting the question has shown a previous instance of setting up a question that probes the area of the joining of the legs of the female human. It is just my opinion but I don't think such questions have to be addressed. Bus stop (talk) 14:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Then don't address it. Warofdreams talk 15:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Or remove it. Isn't removing it to be considered? Bus stop (talk) 15:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Good detective work. It confirms the trolling. And removing it would indeed "address" (or "undress") the situation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

And here, and here. I didn't do much "detective work". I went to "Earliest contributions" for the account. These are obvious. I have to admit I learned something about the existence of that Greek holiday celebrating womanhood. That is interesting. I think English Wikipedia needs an article on Gynaikokratia. Bus stop (talk) 15:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with exploring subjects of a sexual nature. But I find problematic the scholarly tone when there is no hope of anything scholarly ejaculating from the topic of discussion. This question does seem acceptable to me. Bus stop (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I think the best you're going to do here is some sort of sociology text. Skimming through the The Evolution of Modesty ((I'll choose this older, and possibly obsolete, text because it's free on Project Gutenberg)) by Havelock Ellis (Check out his portrait. Guy looks intense.) it seems like the recurring theme is that ladies will instinctively cover whatever they think is getting unseemly attention. So the answer is that not only does it vary from culture to culture, but even from situation to situation. APL (talk) 01:18, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Does the first world live in luxury by keeping the third world down?

After travelling overseas last year I have been troubled by the massive amount of poverty in the third world. I understand that most of the third world's problems were brought about by Western imperialist meddling in the past, but is there more to it than that? Is the fact that only about 10 or 20% of the people in the world live in really wealthy, healthy countries a coincidence, or do we keep ourselves up there by keeping others down? For example, the computer I am writing this on was probably manufactured in China by a guy working in a sweatshop for a dollar an hour. Would it be theoretically possible, economically speaking, for everybody in the world to have a first-world standard of living? 123.243.54.85 (talk) 05:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

You may be interested in World Systems Theory, as well as Fair trade. Also, consider the ecological footprint if everyone in the world started to drive as many miles as Americans currently do. Nevertheless, many people believe that it is possible to Make poverty history. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Here in Europe it is well known that the US consumes far more of its per capita share of natural resources than the rest of the world. So it would be impossible to have everyone in the world consuming the same per capita amount of resources as the US - you'd need several earths to supply it. But with more efficient technology it may be possible to raise the safety-net (or at least provide one in the first place) below which nobody should fall. 92.15.6.157 (talk) 11:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

7 billion humans already consume more than one planet's worth of resources. Even if the population stopped growing and we lived within our means, a more equitable sharing of the Earth's resources would result in a massive drop in living standards in the first world. Rather than making poverty history it would mean lowering everyone into poverty. So no, it would not be possible for everybody in the world to have a first-world standard of living, unless there were dramatically fewer of us. Astronaut (talk) 12:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

That's all right, in the rest of the world it is well known that Europe consumes far more than its per capita share of natural resources as well. I don't see any EU countries to the left of the vertical line in File:Human welfare and ecological footprint.jpg, do you? You should also be very careful in looking at tables like List of countries by energy consumption per capita. To take one example, Iceland's in second place on the list not because it is tremendously wasteful (though it is dark and cold and thinly populated, and this does have energy costs) but because of extensive natural resource extraction projects. Mining and smelting aluminum is particularly energy intensive and contributes heavily to Iceland's energy budget, even though the embodied energy in the finished product is shipped overseas. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The reason the USA and Europe consume "more than their share" of resources is because they can. As large populations such as India and China become more prosperous, their ability to consume more resources will increase, and pressure on the world's resources will become much more significant. At that point, trouble may arise. Of course, by then the Americans and Europeans who decided to build up those countries' economies will be long gone. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Poor countries are not poor because there are rich countries. If the rich countries stopped all trade and other interaction with the poor countries then almost everybody on both sides would become poorer. Many of the resources in the poor countries would not go to the poor instead of the rich. They would no longer be exploited because they wouldn't be worth exploiting without rich buyers and technology from rich countries. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:23, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

If you look at the poverty-stricken countries around the world, I expect you'll find that most of them are dictatorships or cults of personality. The more prosperous countries appear to have a system of government rather than one-man rule. The question is, Which factor drives the other? Or is it a bit of both? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:29, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

A few thoughts:

1) China is getting rich off that $1 a day the workers there get paid to assemble your computer. It may not sound like much to you, but that's a dramatic improvement for many there. As time passes, wages will rise, until they no longer have a competitive advantage due to lower wages.

2) I won't say that democracy is necessary for prosperity, but some form of stable government is, as is capitalism. China didn't qualify as capitalist under Mao, but does now.

3) For the most part, poor nations were always poor. It's not like their wealth has been stolen by Western nations, unless you consider this to include "unrealized wealth", which existed as minerals, petroleum, etc. Unfortunately, the power structure in most of those nations means that any money paid for extracting those resources goes to the ruling class and doesn't filter down to the general population. Western companies could do more, though, to ensure that at least some of the money does make it all the way down. For example, they could build and staff schools for the locals. This could be a good PR move and hopefully also prevent them from being targets of rebels dissatisfied with their treatment by these companies.

4) Well-meaning but misguided charities seem to have contributed to the economic problems of the Third World. For example, in Haiti, following their massive earthquake, charities provided food, which they brought in, for free. This has the effect of destroying the local food production and distribution channels, as nobody will pay for Haiti-grown food when they can get it for free from the charities. A better approach would have been to give vouchers to Haitians, which they could then use to "buy" food from local merchants, who would then be reimbursed in cash. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Compassion sometimes overrides practical sense. The history of Haiti is a horror story. They were robbed both by empirialists and by their own "leaders", the Duvalier father-and-son team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:41, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

It could be argued that the developed world's relative affluence is directly related to the relative poverty of the less developed world. Historically, that affluence is partly a consequence of poverty elsewhere. The affluence of Europe and the United States was originally built partly on the expropriation and enslavement of other parts of the world. The United States benefited enormously from the land and resources formerly occupied by the native American peoples, who were violently expelled and in some cases killed off. It also benefited greatly during its first century from the unpaid labor of enslaved Africans and their descendants. Europeans likewise benefited from the land, expropriated resources, and forced labor of conquered peoples in Africa and Asia. (Later Japan, for several decades, pursued a similar strategy in parts of Asia as well.) These processes contributed to the vast stock of capital that European nations and the United States accumulated. This stock of capital allowed Europe and the United States (and to a lesser extent Japan) to become the creditors of Latin America during the 19th century and of the rest of the less developed world when it gained independence in the 20th century. Right up until the last decade or so, the developed countries have enjoyed a steady stream of income from their investments in the less developed world, investments partly made possible by earlier expropriation and exploitation, and investments that generate a yield by siphoning off income from poorer countries. Meanwhile, colonial development policies and a shortage of capital in the less developed world forced many of those countries into relying on exports of resources and agricultural produce. Because five sixths of the world's population were competing to sell natural resources and crops to one sixth, this intense competition kept prices down and allowed the rich world to enjoy cheap food and industrial inputs. At the same time, those low prices kept incomes low in the poor world and made it difficult for the poor world to build up its own stock of capital, since any net income often had to be devoted to debt service. This cycle of debt dependency up until the past few years enriched the rich world at the direct cost of the poor world.

However, the world is changing. The growth of China and to a lesser extent India, along with other Asian and Latin American countries, is directly linked to a process of globalization in which firms based in the rich world have increasingly shifted capital to the developing world, in many cases reversing the trade balance, and enriching developing countries. In many of these countries, the bulk of the new money flows to a small elite, and globalization continues to rely on depressed labor costs for the much larger working classes of these countries. (These labor costs can be kept low by political repression such as in China, where the state prevents the formation of independent labor unions and violently opposes worker demands.) However, competition with the developing world is driving down relative incomes for working people in the rich world as well. As others have said, the Earth has a finite supply of resources, which is one reason why energy and commodity prices have been soaring in recent years. I think that a strong case can be made that the old world, in which exploitation had a substantial geographic dimension, is giving way to a new world in which exploitation is global and much more based on class than geography. In this new world, the lifestyle that we in the rich world have come to take for granted will likely increasingly be affordable only to those in a multinational global elite, while people who are not part of that elite will see their living standards fall to levels similar to those of Chinese workers. Marco polo (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Another way to visualize this problem, is what would happen to Third World nations if they existed alone ? In a world where Haiti was alone on a giant planet-wide ocean, would it then become rich ? I'm rather skeptical. StuRat (talk) 16:18, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Haiti is an interesting case. Before the arrival of Europeans, Haiti and the rest of Hispaniola were one of the most densely populated parts of the Americas. According to most Spanish accounts, its people were healthy, and although their technology was more or less neolithic, reasonably well off, in the sense that they did not seem to suffer want or famine. No doubt, life expectancies were low by our standards. There is no reason to think that this picture would have changed much if Hispaniola (or western Hispaniola) were cut off from the rest of the world. It probably would not have become rich, by our standards, but nor would its people be likely to face the kind of desperation Haitians face today. I would argue that their desperation today has everything to do with the processes I have described above. Of course, if you took present-day Haiti and isolated it from the rest of the world, you could expect dire results, but that's not an argument that its present state is unconnected to the enrichment of Europe and North America. Marco polo (talk) 17:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, the title of this Q is "Does the first world live in luxury by keeping the third world down?". That seems to ask about current economic harm done to Third World nations, not harm done in the past. StuRat (talk) 17:54, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Point taken. I guess the answer is, at this very moment, not so much. My point was, however, that you can't understand the relative wealth disparity without understanding the history. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, with neolithic technology, wouldn't overpopulation still be a problem, leading to war, disease, starvation, deforestation, etc., since birth control would be unknown ? StuRat (talk) 17:58, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough, this seems not to have been such a problem. Neolithic populations seem to have been fairly stable. One reason was that women nursed children up until age 4 in many societies, and fertility is much suppressed in nursing women, lowering the birth rate. Another unfortunate reason for the stability of populations was infant mortality. Finally, sadly, the evidence suggests that infanticide was quite common in premodern societies. If a person felt they would have trouble feeding the baby, they might have quickly dispatched it. Intermittent warfare also kept the population down. Marco polo (talk) 20:06, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Excluding the recent revolt, power vacuum, earthquake, flooding, and cholera epidemic, what desperation are you referring to? (Those things must all be excluded since they could have equally well happened hundreds of years ago, and can't be blamed on past contact with Europeans, except the cholera, but it could have been some other disease.) 213.122.28.108 (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

American Chemical Society Accreditation

Is Carnegie Mellon accredited, with respect to undergraduate degrees? It's not listed on the American Chemical Society website, so I'm wondering, but it is a prestigious school (so I would think it would be accredited), and such accreditation is (I think) mentioned on the Carnegie Mellon website. 202.45.54.95 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:03, 22 March 2011 (UTC).

Carnegie Mellon is a very well respected institution. [12] [13] should be quite sufficient. Collect (talk) 15:50, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Carnegie Mellon is perfectly accredited (by other agencies, but perhaps not ACS).See Council_for_Higher_Education_Accreditation, and List_of_recognized_accreditation_associations_of_higher_learning#United_States. Basically, accreditation from a field-specific academic society such as ACS is not always a feature of a well-respected institution. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

ACS acredited undergraduate degrees, IIRC (and it has been a few years) requires the institution to, among other things, teach a certain curriculum and students must pass ACS created standardized tests. I have a chemistry degree from an ACS-certified department (the University of Delaware) but there are, as noted, several well-respected departments which are not necessarily ACS accredited. This page has the requirments for a chemistry program to become ACS Approved program, as well as a list of them. I would say that, while ACS acreditation is a sign of quality, the lack of accreditation is not automatically a sign of a lack of quality. As noted, CMU is regularly cited as one of the best univeristies in the country, especially with regards to science and technology, so I can't see where a chemistry degree from CMU would be devalued merely for lacking ACS accreditation. --Jayron32 01:11, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

March 23

Mobile internet

Why do almost all major companies charge more for mobile laptop internet service than data plans for phones one the same network technology and hardware chips. Now my question is not about the rationale, I already know computer based users, on average, consume much more bandwidth resources and that justifies charging more. My question is really why do they do it considering it's incredibly easy to tether the computer to a modern smartphone using wifi, usb, or bluetooth without any possible way for the provider to find out. Even though that may be considered dishonest and what not, I think it actually makes the company seem dishonestly charging you more for something everyone can easily get without paying more. Besides tethering, I have heard simply puting the SIM card that was activated for a phone into the computer's hardware will acheive the same thing. And finally, on a related note, why do many companies charge more for "BlackBerry internet service" than other phones. Again, I'm not talking about compnanies with different 2G and 3G services, I'm talking about the majority of North American providers who are providing the exact same technology and service at different prices to BlackBerries, Laptops, and other smartphones at 3 different price points. The incredible ease of circumventing it undetectably (and arguably, with a good legal argument of ignorance or unfairness) makes it just seem to me that they are pathetically and hopelessly trying to over charge the "hopefully ignorant" customers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto75780 (talk • contribs) 00:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

One more ridiculous thing is that some companies i know in canada officially released a software update that enables tethering for upto 5 computers off of one phone, and still that data plan, including the phone voice plan, costs way less than a laptop plan for the same amount of data. What on earth is the point? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roberto75780 (talk • contribs) 00:53, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

birthdays

My wife and I are over 60. I was born in June on a Thur., she in July on a Sat. How is it that now, our birthdays occur on the same weekday?198.50.63.15 (talk) 02:10, 23 March 2011 (UTC)