Talk:Michael Jackson

Edit request on 11 December 2012

How is whether the heal the world foundation was shut down relevant to his overall contributions to charity. I think this information should be placed in the "contents" section.Billydeecooper (talk) 01:50, 11 December 2012‎ (UTC)

Michael jackson did self proclaim himself king of pop

In a chapter of I Want My MTV: The Uncensored Story of the Music Video Revolution, former employees of MTV claimed that Michael and his "people" made tons of ridiculous requests during the 90s. These requests were outlined in a memo, which was leaked to Rolling Stone by Kurt Loder. One of them was for veejays to always refer to him as the King of Pop. Of course, the network claims they "warned" him it would backfire, because there is only one King - Elvis. ( I want my MTV book ) 71.234.119.3 (talk) 03:22, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

MTV became very tabloidish during the years, and they piled up a lot of rumour and slander about Jackson in their documentaries. MTV people never talked to Jackson, there is no confirmation about that (and there would not be, basically all of Jackson's management firms complained that he was not cooperative, he hated to do the PR -- yes, despite all the myths about the contrary -- most of the calls were never returned, Jackson did not want to talk about PR even to his own management, let alone MTV), so there is no single case of Jackson ever self-proclaimed himself to be anything but singer, songwriter, etc. The management, of course, could require and demand whatever from the parties they dealt with, but this has nothing to do with Jackson "self-proclaiming" himself anything. Finally, ). DenisRS (talk) 22:41, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to portions of the MTV book. Anyone have a link to the Bob Jones press release? GoingBatty (talk) 23:03, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth Taylor was the one who initially proclaimed MJ as the King of Pop, she did it at an awards show, that's is when MJ agreed to it and liked it.Zdawg1029 (talk) 17:48, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

"King of pop"

Last January, I removed the "King of Pop" pseudonym from the article's lead based on WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:PEACOCK, provided that this name has not only been given to Jackson. Despite this, users Flyer22, Status and Comatmebro opposed the change; Flyer22 stated that PEACOCK did not proceed in this case, and that Wikipedia:Article titles#Treatment of alternative names applies in Jackson's individual case, adding that "Not many, or too many, have been given the "King of Pop" title. Simple Google searches will show that." I may have not done the best at basing my claims on PEACOCK, but to be sincere, I still think that it is incorrect to put the alias in the lead, when several sources argue the exact opposite. These are some of the references that we may take into consideration:

"King of pop" alias in some other artists

Robbie Williams:

• [5] (Evening Standard)

• [6] (Canoe.ca) Note: October, 1999

• [7] (Daily Star)

Elvis Presley:

• [8] (Radio Cooperativa) Note: In Spanish

• [9] (The Independent)

Justin Timberlake:

• Kimberly Dillon Summers 2010, p. xxiii (Justin Timberlake: A Biography) from ABC-CLIO

• Tony Napoli 2009, p. 33 (Justin Timberlake: Breakout Music Superstar) from Enslow Publishers

• [10] (Bio. UK)

Usher:

• [11] (Billboard)

• Geoffrey M. Horn (Usher) from Gareth Stevens

• Vibe May 2004, P. 36 (Vol 12, no° 5)

Elton John:

• [12] (Today's Zaman)

• • • • • • • • • • Now Jacko's case (Some references and That is not punitive)

Pre-Wikipedia

• [13] (Billboard; 1993) Note: The self-proclaimed King of Pop

• [14] (The New York Times; 1994) Note: "sometimes called "the king of pop"

• [15] (SF Reviews; 1999) Note: "Michael Jackson crowned himself the "King of Pop"

• Rosemarie Garland Thomson 1996 p. 369 (Freakery: Cultural Spectacles of the Extraordinary Body) from New York University Note: "When Jackson, irked by the fact that "They call Elvis [Presley] the King," asked "Why don't they call me that?" he was ... Jackson countered with a campaign to cement his own sobriquet, "The King of Pop," in America's cultural consciousness"

• [16] (Today (U.S. TV program)) Note: "In the year 1991, when MTV was still primarily known for playing music videos, a new album from an artist who helped define the channel in the ‘80s was being released. This album was going to be huge, and MTV kicked into high gear promoting its world premiere airing of the first single’s video. The album was called “Dangerous.” The single was called “Black or White.” And the artist? Well, he was suddenly called “The King of Pop."

• [17] (Entertainment Weekly; 1997) Note: "Michael Jackson crowned himself the King of Pop"

• Campbell B. Titchener 1998 p. 173 (Reviewing the Arts) from Routledge Note: "The self-proclaimed "King of Pop"

Post-Wikipedia

• [18] (The New York Times; 2005) Note: "Self-proclaimed king of pop"

• [19] (Houston Chronicle) Note: "The self-appointed King of Pop"

• Victor Pross 2009, p. 23 (Icons & Idols: Pop Goes the Culture) from AuthorHouse Note: "The self-proclaimed King of pop, public curiosity"

• David Kastin 2002 p. 286 (I hear America singing: an introduction to popular music) from Prentice Hall Note: [...]"when Michael Jackson crowned himself King of Pop, he was simply engaging in a desperate attempt to revive a flagging career"

• Margo Jefferson 2006 p. 52 (On Michael Jackson) from Pantheon Books Note: "He crowned himself the King of Pop and arranged two marriages"

• Mari Hadley 2009 p. 61 (Michael Jackson Master of Illusion: The Final Curtain Call) from Xlibris Corporation Note: "The self proclaimed King of Pop a title penned him by his close friend, Elizabeth Taylor when she announced him at an awards show".

• [20] (CMJ; 2002) Note: [...]"the self- proclaimed "King Of Pop"

• Jaap Kooijman 2008 p.88 (Fabricating the Absoulte Fake: America in Contemporary Pop Culture) from Amsterdam University Press Note: "His controversial image intensified later on in the 1990s with his self-proclaimed title of being the King of Pop"

• Alexander L'Estrange, Simon Lesley 2008 (Michael Jackson Smash Hits) from Faber & Faber Note: [...]"the illustrious career from the self-proclaimed King of Pop"

• [21] (Wall Street Journal) Note: "The self-proclaimed King of Pop"

According to John Sinkevics from The Grand Rapids Press, when covering the death of Jackson, the press had to mandatorily use the "King of pop" alias. I, with this evidence, beg you to see that Jackson is not the only one to have received the King of Pop title'. In an attempt to keep neutrality and avoid slants on the article, I think that we shoudl mention the title in the appropriate section, but not in the lead. We can take a look at the references from the music industry like Billboard, where other artists have been named "King of Pop". Also, we cannot hide the other truth that is covered by many other references from scientific, academic or musical sources, be it from the 90s decade or the 2000s, where is revealed that, originally, the "King of Pop" alias was a self-proclamation by Jackson himself, and a merketing strategy. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 04:38, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

No one in our previous discussion ever stated that Michael Jackson is the only one who has been called "the King of Pop." Everyone refer to what I stated in the discussion Chrishonduras is referring to. I stand by all of what I stated there (currently seen higher on this talk page). I basically stated that no one else is known as the "King of Pop" as widely as Michael Jackson is; unlike the others, he is literally known by that title, not just someone who has been called "the King of Pop." Google searches with the many reliable sources about the matter, the WP:Original research method of simply asking people who is "the King of Pop," and any other method, shows that no one else is known as the "King of Pop" as widely as Michael Jackson is; it's that simple, really. There are no reliable sources that argue that Michael Jackson is not the person who is most known by the "King of Pop" title. And it's because of all of this, Chrishonduras, that I consider your tampering with the King of Pop disambiguation page in the way that you did (after you altered Honorific nicknames in popular music by adding other people who have been called "the King of Pop") to be completely WP:UNDUE. But unlike you, I am not especially focused on this topic, and so I will not revert you on that; but make no mistake about it...it's wrong.

As for the claim that Jackson demanded that the press refer to him as "the King of Pop," even if true, which is something you obviously got from this section (currently seen higher on this talk page), that is irrelevant. Fact is...no one else is known by that title as thoroughly as he is. Flyer22 (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

And scientific sources? There are no scientific sources that discuss the "King of pop" title. Try to relax on this topic.

Anyway, since you are so focused on this topic, I will leave a message with Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography and Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians matter about this. [Edited in "With the exception of Wikipedia:WikiProject Television"], the other music-focused or music-related WikiProjects currently aren't as active as these two are. Flyer22 (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

• Confusing - not sure what is being argued here. The opening of this topic is about the removal of a term - yet that same post (by the same person) gives many many examples of the term used. What is being asked here?Moxy (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

@Flyer22 I think this has strayed. In no time I mentioned that the three said Jacko was the only one who has been called "King of Pop". This is what I say (now, that's what I want to look good). First, the Google search does not add or remove anything, because Wikipedia is a priority for Google. In fact, is perhaps the first result that one can obtain (vicious circle).

Yes, I totally agree with you that the fact that Jacko has self-proclaimed not add or remove anything in principle. The problem is that some are still calling him "The self-proclaimed King of Pop" and this must not be left ignored. In addition, others have already been self-proclaimed, So clear example is Kanye West. My edition disambiguation of "King of Pop" is not bad (what truth, if there are multiple truths?) because after all that implies that you do not use common sense and to be honest, violate policy WP:Pointy ("eye", policies are ambivalent, in any case, ignore the rules). Finally, I am calm, and I clarify that I am a fan of Jackso, but first am impartially. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 21:25, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

@Moxy What I propose is that, given how many artists have received the KoP title, we should avoid using it specifically for Michael Jackson on the lead, and explain it thoroughly on the correspondent section. My belief is that saying that he is also known as the King of Pop gives undue weigh to him, and leaves apart the rest of artists who have also receive such name. Chrishonduras (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

have you looked at real books on the topic over news sources? book search on the topic - That seen we can remove it from the lead as its in the "Legacy and influence" section anyways. Moxy (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Chrishonduras, you are the one, who above, used the the words "provided that this name has not only been given to Jackson." and "when several sources argue the exact opposite." For the first, I showed why that is irrelevant. For the second, I showed why that is not true. There still, of course, are not many notable people who have been called "the King of Pop" and there are no people who are known (I repeat "known") as, instead of having simply been called, "the King of Pop." And there are no reliable sources that argue that Michael Jackson is not the person who is most known by the "King of Pop" title. I don't see what else there is to argue about this or why you are so obsessed with this topic, so much so that you altered the King of Pop disambiguation page and the Honorific nicknames in popular music article to try to strengthen your argument. But you are wasting my time, or rather I am letting you waste my time. And, yes, Google matters when it shows that Michael Jackson is the person most well-known by this title, through various reliable sources even attributing the term to only him and/or discussing how he became known by that term. WP:CONSENSUS was, and currently still is, against you on this. And you decided to rehash this topic so soon after it was resolved. A waste of my time. I have WP:COMMONSENSE; it appears that you don't, and are also the one who has decided to be WP:UNCIVIL with your latest post (21:25, 12 February 2013) above. And if anyone has violated any guidelines or policies on this matter, it has been you. You who didn't even apply WP:PEACOCK correctly. You who made the King of Pop disambiguation page WP:UNDUE; it's WP:COMMONSENSE that most people who type in "King of Pop" will be looking for the Michael Jackson article or for other information about Michael Jackson. You who therefore were being WP:POINTY. And I mostly definitely do not ignore Wikipedia rules, unless in a case where I were to follow the WP:Ignore all rules policy. You were wrong and are still wrong. Accept it.

Moxy, Chrishonduras is basically arguing that since Michael Jackson is not the only musical artist to have been called "the King of pop," he shouldn't be referred to as such in the lead. If you haven't already, refer to the previous discussion about this that is noted above. Flyer22 (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I see that now - There are many cases like this as the press will label people indiscriminately. What we need to look at is who is referred as the king of pop in real publications - not news story. Honorific nicknames in popular music should use sources by real publications - not news articles looking to garner traffic. Like with "King of Rock and Roll" - many have had this title linked to them by the press but without even saying who i am talking about we all know who i am referring to right - same here. All that said you care if its out of the lead - but still in the article under "Legacy" section - as its clearly a part of his legacy.Moxy (talk) 22:05, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I care if it's removed from the lead. I feel that it should stay because of the reasons I've already gone over. Chrishonduras will believe that he's right (even more than he already does), for the flimsy reasons he's mentioned, if it's removed. He needs to learn how to use Wikipedia guidelines and policies properly, not continue to think that his misuses of those guidelines and policies are correct. Chrishonduras, you should actually read what WP:UNDUE means. It begins stating, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views."

And do read the rest of that policy. What you have done regarding this matter is WP:UNDUE because the vast majority of people, including reliable sources, refer to Michael Jackson, as opposed to anyone else, as "the King of Pop." That simple. Flyer22 (talk) 22:16, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

"the vast majority of people, including reliable sources" They also neglect to mention he gave himself the title. If he'd been called that by somebody else, it would merit inclusion. This is in the same vein as Ali calling himself "The Greatest": puffery. Delete. At a minimum, "self-proclaimed" should be attached. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:43, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

If Jackson gave himself the title, the difference between him and Muhammad Ali is that Jackson became more well known by his title than Ali did by "The Greatest." People usually specify who they are talking about when they use "The Greatest" title, especially since it's more generic. In contrast, people very often simply state "The King of Pop" when referring to Jackson. I don't see what Jackson giving himself the title, if he did, has to do with whether or not we should mention in the lead that he is well known by that title. And Ali's "The Greatest" title is currently mentioned in the lead of the Wikipedia article about him as well...without any mention that he gave himself that title. Flyer22 (talk) 00:56, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry I haven’t replied sooner. First of all, to Moxy: Like Michael Jackson, there are several artists that had been regarded as the King of Pop, as is the case of Justin Timberlake. This fact can be easily verified with numerous secondary sources and not only with news outlets. Independently from your own personal point of view, that all aliases should be strictly supported by non-news sources, which in my belief is unfair, I don’t believe that employing sources as Billboard, BBC, MTV, The Guardian or Rolling Stones (among many others) is wrong. In fact, sources such as The Guardian or the BBC are written by specialist in different branches, specially music critics and reporters with vast knowledge of popular culture. Aren’t aliases within the context of popular culture? Why do we have to cherry-pick sources or suppress evidence, we shouldn’t be judges of the information, we should accept everything that is publish through secondary sources.

To Flyer22: With all respect, I believe that you have misunderstood my message, to the point that you are no longer presuming good faith. Honestly, I don’t consider wrong to share my point of view, especially when I am formulating it with the support of several trustworthy sources. I never start debates with the idea of losing my time or your time, or with any bad purpose. As I have previously explained, I am starting this dialogue with the objective to find a solution and to let more people participate in this discussion. As I have said before, Jackson is not the only artist that has been regarded as the King of Pop. As well, there are other aliases that should be considered, as "Jacko" or "The Self-proclaimed King of Pop". We also should consider if those aliases only apply to the United States, we cannot assume that he is regarded as the King of Pop in every country (and that would be even violating WP: PEACOCK); we should be precise with information to prevent biases .

Solutions:

1. Remove all the aliases from the introduction and include them in the right section of the article.

2. Maintain all the aliases in the introduction stated in a way to prevent biases, and keeping in consideration if these aliases apply to all the countries in the world or just the United States.

3. Maintain neutrality by replacing the phrase “Often referred to” with “Often referred by some media sources as the King of Pop”

Since our task as editors of Wikipedia is to present unbiased information, this is my proposal. I hope that we are able to find a solution to this issue. Please forgive me if I have offended someone with my words. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 23:05, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Chrishonduras, I don't have much more to state to you on this matter other than what I have already stated to you above about why you are wrong to want to remove "the King of Pop" from the lead and your acting as though others are well known by that title, especially since the way that you apply our policies and guidelines on this matter is odd/wrong. I never stated that it was wrong for you to share your point of view; I stated that your point of view on this matter is wrong and that the sources do not support that anyone else is as widely known as "the King of Pop" as Jackson is. Yes, that applies to the United States and outside of the United States, as many sources show. Even if it only applied to the United States, it would still not be a WP:PEACOCK matter. And again, there are no people who are known (I repeat "known") as, instead of having simply been called, "the King of Pop." The question is not have other musical artists been called "the King of Pop" (and the great majority of them have not, as I've already stated). The question is who is most widely called/regarded as "the King of Pop." And that person, as shown by the vast majority of reliable sources, is Michael Jackson. That is where the WP:UNDUE policy I suggested you read comes in. Some other musical artists have only been called "the King of Pop" by a minority of sources; they are nowhere close to being called "the King of Pop" as often/widely as Michael Jackson is. I don't know what it is that you fail to understand about that.

In the previous discussion, it was me who stated, "If you want 'King of Pop' to stay out of the lead, I'm not going to fight it because I don't care too much about it remaining out of the lead. But I do consider your removal to be wrong. My vote, like two others so far, is to return 'King of Pop' to the lead." I also stated, "I'm not sure where you are getting your rules from, but you are wrong (as I've already shown above)." It was you who left this message on my talk page and soon added "King of Pop" back to the lead (and I tweaked that addition and your addition about it lower in the article). WP:CONSENSUS was achieved for leaving "King of Pop" in the lead. So until WP:CONSENSUS is achieved for removing it, I'm going to press for it staying in the lead.

And using "Often referred by some media sources as the King of Pop" in place "Often referred to as the King of Pop" is hugely downplaying the fact that Michael Jackson has been referred to that way by most, if not by all, professional media sources, and that he continues to be the one person most referred to by that title. Again, this is where WP:UNDUE comes in. Flyer22 (talk) 23:57, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

I forgot to state that things worded along the lines of "some people," or some variation of that while including "some," is often considered WP:Weasel wording even when sources support it. "Some" should be avoided when it can be avoided. We already have "often" in the sentence, which is a word that WP:Weasel wording also mentions, and that's enough. Flyer22 (talk) 00:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

You know I didn't read this whole conversation, but I read enough to say that when anyone in the world hears the name "the king of pop", they think of Michael Jackson, this is a given. Whether or not Justin Timberlake is referred to as the same name (which I've never heard before or with anyone else for that matter), but whether or not Timberlake is referred to as the king of pop is irreverent. When people think of MJ, they think "king of pop".Zdawg1029 (talk) 05:38, 16 March 2013 (UTC)Zdawg1029 (talk) 05:40, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

King and Queen of Pop

Hi. Sorry for coming to this discussion until now, but I've been very busy in the last few days. I've talked to Chrishonduras and I think I understand what's the origin of this problem. "King of Pop" is a title given to Michael Jackson (by himself, the media and the public), when anyone talks about the "King of Pop" the most obvious thing is that he/she is talking about Michael Jackson, besides there are a lot of performers who have recieved the same title (by themselves, the media and the public). Although there were/are/will be a lot of singers consdered "better than him", he always will be known in the pupular culture by this alias. The same thing applies to "Queen of Pop". "Queen of Pop" is a title given to Madonna (by himself, the media and the public), when anyone talks about the "Queen of Pop" the most obvious thing is that he/she is talking about Madonna, besides there are a lot of performers who have recieved the same title (by the media and the public). Although there were/are/will be a lot of singers considered "better than her", she always will be known in the pupular culture by this alias.

But there are some users who are against using the term "Queen of Pop" in the introduction of the article Madonna (entertainer) and they oppose to redirect Queen of Pop to this article. In the talk page you can see that he (and other users) tried to change this saying basically: that no one else is known as the "Queen of Pop" as widely as Madonna is; unlike the others, she is literally known by that title, not just someone who has been called the "Queen of Pop." Google searches, the WP:Original research method of simply asking people who is the "Queen of Pop," and any other method, shows that no one else is known as the "Queen of Pop" as widely as Madonna. And finally, they showed that there are no reliable sources that argue that Madonna is not the person who is most known by the "Queen of Pop" title. However, the answer was "no". Their main arguments: other performers have recieved the same title and that including this alias will be a violation to WP:PEACOCK.

So, everybody expects that when an alias is "shared" by a lot of performers, the title won't appear on the introduction and the term won't redirect to the article of any of this artists. But, when Chrishonduras looked for "King of Pop", he was redirected to this article. He tried to change this situation according to he was told on the discussion about Madonna and Queen of Pop. If you still can't see the irony of this case, let me put this with other words: Why the arguments that don't allow to Madonna be denominated as the "Queen of Pop" in Wikipedia are the same arguments that allow the use of Michael Jackson's title of "King of Pop" in his article? --WABBAW (talk) 03:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

WABBAW, are you Chrishonduras? I'm so suspicious that you are that I am close to reporting at an appropriate venue, or to an appropriate person, that you two are one and the same. Unless you mean that you've talked with Chrishonduras by email(s) or elsewhere on Wikipedia about a similar matter, I don't see where you've talked with him about this particular issue on Wikipedia (judging by your talk page and his talk page, and your currently very few contributions for this year). You also used my arguments, some of my exact phrases, and altered them a bit at some parts. For example, most of your comment seems to argue for using "the King of Pop" in the lead as opposed to not using it; and on that note, your English seems to be on the same often-awkward level as Chrishonduras's. Like I told Chrishonduras in the previous discussion about this topic, Madonna is not known as "the Queen of Pop" as extensively as Michael Jackson is known as "the King of Pop." I also doubt, for a topic such as this (well known titles), that more than a few others have referred to WP:PEACOCK in the same inaccurate way that Chrishonduras has. And when you stated that Chrishonduras was redirected to this article when he looked for "the King of Pop," you must not mean a WP:REDIRECT; I state that because the King of Pop has been a disambiguation page for years, and the only way it redirected people to Michael Jackson is by mentioning that the title may refer to Michael Jackson or to his King of Pop album. That is, before Chrishonduras changed the disambiguation page and made it WP:UNDUE (acting as though anyone else is as commonly/widely known as "the King of Pop" as Michael Jackson is). Disambiguation pages should start off naming what the term/phrase most commonly refers to, if it does most commonly refer to something; in this case, that is no doubt Michael Jackson.

If you are Chrishonduras, which I believe that you are, this is another aspect of what I meant by you wasting my time or rather me letting you waste my time. Flyer22 (talk) 04:54, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

No, Flyer22, WABBAW is WABBAW and I am I; In fact, you can check if you like. Finally, I've given up arguing. You have more reason than me, that means I neither stop having it, in principle. Regardless of the above, this has helped me to have a counterproposal to the case of Madonna, all users previous arguments who have argued this (forgive the redundancy), the nick "Queen of Pop" is widely associated with She perpetuated in every time, not just at the height of his career, and this is a massive multi-language references, unlike other artists. In fact, I have all the links necessary. Best regards, Chrishonduras (talk) 01:04, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that you aren't WABBAW. But I'd very likely need more evidence than what I've mentioned above to show that you two are one and the same anyway. As for everything else, like I stated, "I don't have much more to state to you on this matter other than what I have already stated to you above." You clearly should let this topic drop. Flyer22 (talk) 02:18, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

And regarding the links in your "you can check if you like" wording, reporting you if I felt that I had strong evidence is not what Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point is about. Further, linking to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest shows more of the misuse of policy and/or guideline type of linking/reasoning that you practice (seemingly often). Flyer22 (talk) 02:29, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

xD. Flyer 22, we are both from the Spanish wikipedia. I make most of my contributions on that proyect. This is my user talk page on the spanish wikipedia es:Usuario discusión:WABBAW, where you can see the messages that Chrishonduras has left me. And yes, we both have some issues with English language... Anyway. I used modified versions of your arguments to emphasize the irony of this situation. Still, my main question remains unanswered. Why the arguments that don't allow to Madonna be denominated as the "Queen of Pop" in Wikipedia are the same arguments that allow the use of Michael Jackson's title of "King of Pop" in his article?--WABBAW (talk) 02:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Like I stated, "I don't have much more to state to you on this matter other than what I have already stated to you above." Flyer22 (talk) 02:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

But if I'm wrong about assuming that you two are the same person, which it now seems that I likely am (judging by the talk page you linked to), I apologize for that. I did consider that you aren't the same person, especially since you sign your user names differently. Flyer22 (talk) 02:58, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

michael is not the most succesful artist of all time

please remove that michael jackson is the most succesful artist of all time. the guiness award in 1996 never stated "of all time". that is misleading . GWR also to present (2013) has never stated that they still consider mj to be most sucessful. please remove.68.199.5.208 (talk) 16:06, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

All things considered - he is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RabidMelon (talk • contribs) 14:49, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

He is the most successful, whether or not GWR says so.  — Statυs (talk, contribs) 20:53, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

As a recording artist, Presley’s accomplishments are unparalleled. He is believed to have sold more than one billion records worldwide, about 40 percent of those outside the U.S. Presley still appears to hold the largest number of gold, platinum, and multiplatinum certifications of any artist in history; as of While certainly other artists preceded him to the alter of rock & roll, he is indisputably its king.'2010, 151 different albums and singles. He remained an unmatched chart performer from the Seventies until the first decade of the 21st Century when, as the population of record buyers increased, the chart numbers of top sellers like Mariah Carey and Madonna began to challenge his. According to Billboard, Elvis had 149 charting pop singles: 114 Top 40, 40 Top Ten, and 18 Number Ones

rolling stone bio

131.239.63.3 (talk) 18:14, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/elvis-presley/biography#ixzz2LpzVV4u3 Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

• A billion record sales is inflated beyond belief, even for The Beatles who have astronomically outsold Presley in both album and single sales (Elvis hasn't even one album in the top sellers list after all). As for the "most successful artist" tagline - this is not based on sales but on accolades. Michael Jackson has won and received nominations for far more recognized awards than Elvis Presley and The Beatles combined. Alone he holds more world records than any other music artist, not to mention more albums in the top sellers list than any other artist (5) indicating longevity of popularity and success over a long time period. He holds the record for best selling studio album (Thriller) and best selling remix album (Blood on the Dancefloor) of all time, along with countless other firsts (8 Grammys in one night, the same album being the best seller for two consecutive years, etc.) and records which still remain today. Beyond his own music, he helped create (and his Estate now co-owns) the largest music publishing catalogue in history. And on top of all that, Guinness World Records have the prerogative to award "Most Successful Entertainer" to the recipient of their choice. Mc8755 (talk) 02:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

incorrect. gwr does not lie and requires credible proof. they state one billion for elvis. the beatles certified by riaa are 177. elvis is certified at 138. i hardly consider the beatles number astronomically greater than elvis. most of mj awards were not around during elvis time. some of the awards are only given to black artists. according to jhon landis, mj denanded them or he wouldnt show up at the award show.(i want my mtv book)

riaa certified top 100 albums 1)thriller and eagles greatest hits 29 platinum (elvis christmas album 10 platnum (bad album 8 times platinum (off the wall 8 times platnum (dangerous 7 times platnum (elvis golden records v1 6 times platinum (invinceable mj 2 times platinum (ELVIS BIGGEST ALBUM OUTSOLD 4 of mj biggest albums)

michael is not the most sucessful, elvis clearly is.

71.234.119.3 (talk) 01:54, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

• I don't doubt that Elvis Presley outsold Michael Jackson, but sales are not the sole basis of success for an artist as my reply clearly states. Michael Jackson's awards include 15 Grammys and a Bambi award (both of which were around long before Elvis hit the big time), AMAs and several other awards listed here were around during the time Elvis was putting out music. On top of current music accolades, Jackson received a Presidential Award from then-president Ronald Reagan in 1984, as well as back-dated awards like the Chopard Diamond Award (in 2008) and American Music Awards which don't require current work but records that still exist regardless of new work; GWRs work the same including the award for most successful entertainer of all time. The fact that GWR awarded this to Jackson means it is a reliable reference that should be left in the article. (Not that it matters, but if you want to quote exaggerated sales, Sony claims Michael Jackson sold 750-800 million records pre-2009 and his Estate claimed last year his sales crossed one billion also The sales you listed above are RIAA sales for the US only, worldwide sales of top albums do not feature any Presley record). Several firsts occurred in more recent years after the awarding of Jackson's GWR you're so opposed to, including having the first music video (Thriller) added to the National Film Registry by the Library of Congress, the largest (financially) music contract in history worth $250 million to his Estate in 2009, largest posthumous sales in the year following an artist's death, exceeding Elvis and John Lennon's, highest grossing concert-movie of all time (This Is It), not to mention continued streams of awards posthumously like more AMAs, more GWRs, reinstatement of the MIchael Jackson Video Vanguard VMA award in 2011..... The list goes on. Jackson merits the award he was given, GWR have not revoked it and most certainly haven't given it to Presley. Nowhere in the article does it state or imply that Jackson outsold Elvis; removing it for that reason is completely moot. Mc8755 (talk) 02:37, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Picture

Just wanted to give props to the person who put up the new picture. I vote to keep it there. RabidMelon —Preceding undated comment added 14:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget to change the corresponding picture description in the |alt= parameter in the infobox. GoingBatty (talk) 02:33, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I took a shot at changing the description in this edit. Feel free to improve it. GoingBatty (talk) 03:06, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Motown 25 section

Does everyone agree with my additions to the section about the Motown 25 anniversary show? Is there anything else you would add, take away or change? After doing extensive reading on Michael Jackson, and watching just about every documentary about him, my additions I can assure you are accurate. I do realize they need to be cited which I didn't bother to do. I suppose if someone demands it then I can find the sources for everything, but anyone who has ever studied MJ would know this all to be true. It's pretty common knowledge amongst his followers. Thoughts? Zdawg1029 (talk) 17:43, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the unsourced material - as per WP:BURDEN.Moxy (talk) 18:29, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Because Jackson felt that he was doing to much television at the time, he initially declined to perform at the show and instead preferred to remain seated in the audience. However at Berry Gordy's insistence, Jackson agreed to perform with his brothers again under the condition that he was allotted time for a solo performance.

Jackson's performance of "Billie Jean" was unique in that no other artist during the show was permitted to perform music that was not written under the Motown label.

Jackson's performance would be considered a pivotal moment in his career and widely hailed as what launched him to become a superstar, including Berry Gordy who stated that the performance "launched him into the stratosphere.

I suggest you do some reading up on Michael Jackson. You find all of this to be factual and a part of his history, and very well should be included in his wikipedia page. It is all widely known amongst anybody that follows Michael Jackson. What you are doing is deleting history. I understand that most material needs to be sourced, all of this information has been stated in many interviews by multiple sources.Zdawg1029 (talk) 20:50, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN = The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material.Moxy (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

We cant use Wikipedia its self as references - pls read over Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources. I would suggest to propose any changes here first - let experienced editors review the information and sources. Than you Moxy (talk) 21:20, 23 February 2013 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 21:19, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Michael Jackson is not the most successful artist

please remove an outdated 1996 gwr record that has clearly been broken. 1)all mj concert records broken 2)fastest sell out broken

2013 gwr "elvis is the biggest selling solo artist in history with one BILLION in sales"

= more success

thank you

131.239.63.3 (talk) 18:05, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

But you do agree that at the time stated he was correct? Perhaps a rewording.Moxy (talk) 18:29, 26 February 2013 (UTC).

i understand your point, but stating an old 1996 gwr that has never been stated again by gwr is misleading. all musical artists have to be defined sales or hits. influence, or even awards is ambiguous at best.most of mj awards were not around in the seventies and prior. i would put" in 1996 he was considered the most sucessful by gwr."

2602:304:5B71:379:F53E:F0B6:93E5:4EEA (talk) 19:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

• Same topic, same reply: A billion record sales is inflated beyond belief, even for The Beatles who have astronomically outsold Presley in both album and single sales (Elvis hasn't even one album in the top sellers list after all). As for the "most successful artist" tagline - this is not based on sales but on accolades. Michael Jackson has won and received nominations for far more recognized awards than Elvis Presley and The Beatles combined. Alone he holds more world records than any other music artist, not to mention more albums in the top sellers list than any other artist (5) indicating longevity of popularity and success over a long time period. He holds the record for best selling studio album (Thriller) and best selling remix album (Blood on the Dancefloor) of all time, along with countless other firsts (8 Grammys in one night, the same album being the best seller for two consecutive years, etc.) and records which still remain today. Beyond his own music, he helped create (and his Estate now co-owns) the largest music publishing catalogue in history. And on top of all that, Guinness World Records have the prerogative to award "Most Successful Entertainer" to the recipient of their choice. Mc8755 (talk) 02:22, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Michael Jackson has never been the most downloaded artist

please remove that mj was the most downloaded artist. according to soundscan/billboard he never was.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/permalink/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20100106007077&newsLang=en

12.40.50.3 (talk) 19:34, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see anything that Billboard did to refute Nokia's survey. —C.Fred (talk) 01:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Lady Gaga is the biggest selling digital artist in 2009 with more than 15 million track sales. ◦ In 2008, Rihanna was the biggest selling digital artist with 9.9 million track sales. (exact statement from soundscan/billboard) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.40.50.3 (talk) 19:42, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article states "on 29 August 2010, he became the most downloaded artist of all time". It appears that your reference is for 2008 & 2009 only. GoingBatty (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 March 2013

Good evening, I would like to advise that the following links no longer exist:

23. ^ a b The Jackson Five, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Retrieved May 29, 2007.

79. ^ "Newswatch Magazine – The Man, His Weird Ways". Newswatchngr.com. July 5, 2009. Retrieved October 24, 2009.

107. ^ a b c "Jackson receives his World Records". Yahoo!. (November 14, 2006). Retrieved November 16, 2006.[dead link]

114. ^ "Blacks who give back'". Ebony. March 1990. Retrieved March 14, 2010.

116. ^ Gray, Chris; Shah, Saeed (October 3, 2002). "Robbie swings historic record deal with EMI". The Independent (London). Retrieved March 24, 2010.

129. ^ a b c d Johnson, Robert (May 1992). "Michael Jackson: crowned in Africa". Ebony. Retrieved July 23, 2008.

189. ^ Toumi, Habib (January 23, 2006). "Jackson settles down to his new life in the Persian Gulf". Gulf News. Retrieved November 11, 2006.

190. ^ McNamara, Melissa (March 17, 2006). "Jackson Closes Neverland House". CBS News. Retrieved April 25, 2010.

193. ^ "Michael Jackson Sails With Two Seas". Billboard. Nielsen Business Media, Inc. Retrieved April 25, 2010.

207. ^ "Choose The Tracks On Michael Jackson's 50th Birthday Album!". Sony BMG. (June 20, 2008). Retrieved June 20, 2008.

215 ^ Foster, Patrick (March 6, 2009). "Michael Jackson grand finale curtain-raiser". The Times (London). Retrieved March 24, 2009.

217. ^ "Michael Jackson: The Last Rehearsal". Life. June 29, 2009. Retrieved August 28, 2009.[dead link]

227. ^ a b Harvey, Michael (June 26, 2009). "Fans mourn artist for whom it didn't matter if you were black or white". The Times (London). Retrieved June 26, 2009.

237. ^ a b Skok, David, Internet stretched to limit as fans flock for Michael Jackson news[dead link], The Vancouver Sun, June 26, 2009.

254. ^ "Michael Jackson Homicide Ruling". Retrieved August 24, 2009.[dead link]

280. ^ "IMMORTAL, the highly anticipated musical tapestry for Cirque du Soleil’s Michael Jackson THE IMMORTAL World Tour". Sony Music Entertainment. Retrieved October 4, 2011.[dead link]

344. ^ "Free Services for PR :: News :: Press Releases". Pr-inside.com. Retrieved 2012-04-16.

361. ^ "More adds, loose ends, and lament". The 120 Minutes Archive. July 25, 2009. Retrieved July 26, 2009.

Perhaps it should be replaced. Can I make substitutions? Bye :) LilaMJ (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

LilaMJ (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

One way to replace sources that are WP:Dead links is by using Internet Archive. Generally, a source shouldn't be removed simply because it's a dead link; one reason, like I stated, is because the links can usually be updated with an archived version. See the WP:Dead links page for the rest of why removing dead links generally is not a good idea. If the dead link is replaced with a completely different WP:Reliable source that supports the same material, then that is always fine. Flyer22 (talk) 22:47, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

 Doing... using Wikipedia:CHECKLINKS. GoingBatty (talk) 22:50, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done for each reference you listed, I added the new URL, and archive URL, or tagged it as a {{dead link}}. Still working on improving other references. GoingBatty (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Michael jackson is not the most sucessful

Please stop using an old 1996 GWR award that guiness has never stated again Most of mj awards were not around during the seventies . Michael jackson is not even in the top ten best selling artists per certified riaa sales . He doesn't have the most number one albums or hits . All of his concert records have been broken .

Elvis Presley (USA) is the best-selling solo artist, with 1 billion sales worldwide (129.5 million in the USA). ( exact GWR 2013 statement ) they have credible data to back it up

Billboard top 40 hits ( ninth edition ) 2010 Most top ten hits 1) elvis 38 2) Madonna 37 3) the beatles 34 4) michael jackson 28 5) Janet jackson 28 Most chart hits 1) elvis 114 2) Elton John 58 3) the beatles 52 12) michael jackson 38 Most number one hits 1) the beatles 20 2) elvis 18 3) Mariah Carey 18 4) michael jackson 13 Most weeks at number one position 1) elvis 80 2) Mariah Carey 79 3) the beatles 59 4) boys to men 50 5) usher 43 6) michael jackson

Artist Certified Units in Millions BEATLES, THE 177 PRESLEY, ELVIS 134.5 BROOKS, GARTH 128 LED ZEPPELIN 111.5 EAGLES 100 JOEL, BILLY 81.5 PINK FLOYD 74.5 JOHN, ELTON 72 STREISAND, BARBRA 71.5 AC/DC 71.5 JACKSON, MICHAEL 70.5 Riaa 3/14/13

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinum.php?content_selector=top-selling-artists

Level Title Artist Label 29 THRILLER JACKSON, MICHAEL EPIC/LEGACY 29 EAGLES/THEIR GREATEST HITS 1971 - 1975 EAGLES ELEKTRA 23 GREATEST HITS VOLUME I & VOLUME II JOEL, BILLY COLUMBIA 23 THE WALL PINK FLOYD COLUMBIA 23 LED ZEPPELIN IV LED ZEPPELIN ATLANTIC 22 BACK IN BLACK AC/DC EPIC 21 DOUBLE LIVE BROOKS, GARTH CAPITOL NASHVILLE 20 COME ON OVER TWAIN, SHANIA MERCURY NASHVILLE 19 THE BEATLES BEATLES, THE APPLE 19 RUMOURS FLEETWOOD MAC WARNER BROS. 18 APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION GUNS N' ROSES GEFFEN 17 BOSTON BOSTON EPIC 17 THE BEATLES 1967 - 1970 BEATLES, THE EMI 17 THE BODYGUARD (SOUNDTRACK) HOUSTON, WHITNEY ARISTA

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinum.php?content_selector=top-100-albums

Please don't forget until the early seventies singles were the dominate purchase ( not albums )

There is no way that michael jackson should be stated as most sucessful anymore . There is a reason why GWR never states that about mj after 1996 Please remove that statement

Thank you

71.234.119.3 (talk) 01:17, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

Dear person whose name is not my concern,

Clearly you haven't done your research properly. The sources you chose for your research are ones that are sure to show Presley as the most successful. This is biased and honestly, irritating. We do not want and opinion. We want the facts. In the 2009 Guiness World Records, Michael Jackson remains the most successful recording artist, and the most famous human on Earth.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leo1452 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

you should NOT be a wiki editor. since when did gwr, riaa and billboard become biased.???? isn't it ironic that the mj wiki page uses billboard, riaa and gwr as sources? also, mj was stated as most successful in 1996, NOT 2009. please note that in 2009, the wall street journal debunked the 750 million ablum sales claim from the mj camp. art baine, the official ifpi rep" we do NOT know how many records mj sold" clearly the only accurate worldwide tally would be riaa because they CERTIFY. mj is NOT the most successful per billboard, riaa and the ifpi. I am sure you realize the majority of mj awards were NOT around in the seventies. some are only awarded to a certain ethnicity as well. GWR 2013 states elvis sold a billion and is the biggest selling solo artist in history. that clearly is quantifieable and shows elvis is the most successful artist in history thank you (the silent majority)

12.40.50.3 (talk) 19:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

The lead states "Jackson is recognized as the most successful entertainer of all time by Guinness World Records" but does not have a reference indicating which year. Leo1452, could you please add a reference from the 2009 (or later) Guinness World Records book for this statement? Does it define GWR's definition of "most sucessful"? Success could be measured by US-only album sales or US-only chart success via the RIAA statistics, but I think worldwide success would be a more interesting metric. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 22:43, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Photo

Hey could someone add a picture of MJ during the rehersal of this is it ?MJ1982 (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Can you give us one (or a link to one) that is not copyrighted? Cresix (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Michael Jackson's birth name

According to Jermaine Jackson's 2011 biography "You Are Not Alone - Michael: Through a Brother's Eyes", on page 42, Michael Jackson's birth was registered under the name of "Michael Joe Jackson". Although on his death certificate, his name was "Michael Joseph Jackson", this was definitely not his birth name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leo1452 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Confirmed on page 43, as well as the copyright page of the book. GoingBatty (talk) 02:41, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I've added a note regarding the discrepancy in this edit. GoingBatty (talk) 02:59, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit - pls discuss before changing again no conspiracy stuff - - dont let them trick you. Michael Jackson Faked His Death or Michael Joe and Michael Joseph are twinsMoxy (talk) 06:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• The reference in the article

File:Michael Jackson death certificate.jpg

• Joseph is also used on his LAST WILL

Last Will and Testament

• His fortune was all under the title Estate of Michael Joseph Jackson

Estate of Michael Joseph Jackson aka Michael Jackson

• Books he has written and published like Moomwalk use Joseph

Michael Jackson (13 October 2009). Moonwalk. Random House Digital, Inc. pp. 6–. ISBN 978-0-307-71698-9. Retrieved 11 November 2011.

• In interviews with him over the years "Ebony" has used "Joseph"

Johnson Publishing Company (December 2007). Ebony. Johnson Publishing Company. p. 94. ISSN 00129011.

Johnson Publishing Company (May 1984). Ebony. Johnson Publishing Company. p. 163. ISSN 00129011.

• Looks like he wrote "Joseph" himself on his kids Birth certificates

MJ jr and Paris birth certificates

• His children also have this middle name -

Mary K. Pratt (1 January 2010). Michael Jackson: King of Pop. ABDO. p. 100. ISBN 978-1-60453-788-8.

.........Moxy (talk) 06:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I've actually heard that his middle name was Joe several times.Zdawg1029 (talk) 07:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This is correct he used it on many occasions - but hes Estate (were all the money goes), Birth certificate, Death certificate, Will, His books the he wrote, any old interviews refer to his full name as Joseph, his kids have this name.. it goes on and on. You would think that someone would have called Ebony magazine after getting it wrong 3 decades ago so they would not use if for the next 30 years. This name problem has never been a problem till he died and all the guess work started to show up. Same happens to many stars -if your alive they kill you if your dead its not you = Paul McCartney Is Dead or that Elvis is alive because his tombstone is wrong. Moxy (talk) 07:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Music videos and choreography

There's a some what mistake in this section in regards to the Smooth Criminal video. In the video itself, the anti-gravity lean was accomplished using cables and it wasn't until MJ went on tour and wanted to perform the move that him and designers came up with the special shoe that gives them the ability to perform the move. And with that being said, I think the fact that they had to have pegs come out of the stage and the performer had to hook their feet into the pegs should be mentioned in there with it.Zdawg1029 (talk) 03:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a suggestion on how to make it more clear? What about what is below.Moxy (talk) 07:19, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

• From this -

For "Smooth Criminal", Jackson experimented with an innovative "anti-gravity lean" in his performances

• To this perhaps -

While preforming "Smooth Criminal" on tour, Jackson experimented with an innovative "anti-gravity lean system" to mimic the effect archived in the video.'

I can write something sometime today or this week that I think will explain it pretty well. I will post it on talk first. But it is definitely true about using cables in the video then the development of the shoe for live performances.Zdawg1029 (talk) 18:01, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This is what I came up with real quick, I suppose if I thought about it longer I might be able to come up with something better but I think it explains it pretty well without being to long or complicated:

For Smooth Criminal, Jackson experimented with an “anti-gravity lean” in which the performer keeps two feet flat on the ground and leans forward at close to a 45 degree angle. In the video for Smooth Criminal, this was accomplished using wires supporting the performer, but when Jackson wanted to unveil the move live, he and designers had to develop a special shoe that had a notch in the heel that the performer would then hook into a peg that shot up out of the stage allowing them to lean forward at a steep angle without falling. The move required a good amount of strength as you had to essentially rely on yourself to lean forward and come back up. Jackson was granted U.S. Patent No. 5,255,452 for the device. Zdawg1029 (talk) 18:24, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

WOW thats way to much info for such a small thing - SO thats a no for me - need to stop adding all this fluff - just facts. That said the above could go to Smooth Criminal#Anti-gravity lean.Moxy (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2013 (UTC)