Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Reference Desk

Science Mathematics Computing/IT Humanities Language Entertainment Miscellaneous Archives
How to ask a question Search first. It's quicker, because you can find the answer in our online encyclopedia instead of waiting for a volunteer to respond. Search Wikipedia using the searchbox. A web search could help too. Common questions about Wikipedia itself, such as how to cite Wikipedia and who owns Wikipedia, are answered in Wikipedia:FAQ.
Sign your question. Type ~~~~ at its end. Be specific. Explain your question in detail if necessary, addressing exactly what you'd like answered. For information that changes from country to country (or from state to state), such as legal, fiscal or institutional matters, please specify the jurisdiction you're interested in. Include both a title and a question. The title (top box) should specify the topic of your question. The complete details should be in the bottom box. Do your own homework. If you need help with a specific part or concept of your homework, feel free to ask, but please don't post entire homework questions and expect us to give you the answers. Be patient. Questions are answered by other users, and a user who can answer may not be reading the page immediately. A complete answer to your question may be developed over a period of up to seven days.	Do not include your e-mail address. Questions aren't normally answered by e-mail. Be aware that the content on Wikipedia is extensively copied to many websites; making your e-mail address public here may make it very public throughout the Internet. Edit your question for more discussion. Click the [edit] link on right side of its header line. Please do not start multiple sections about the same topic. Archived questions If you cannot find your question on the reference desks, please see the Archives. Unanswered questions If you find that your question has been archived before being answered, you may copy your question from the Archives into a new section on the reference desk. Do not request medical or legal advice. Ask a doctor or lawyer instead.
After reading the above, you may ask a new question by clicking here. Your question will be added at the bottom of the page.
How to answer a question Be thorough. Please provide as much of the answer as you are able to. Be concise, not terse. Please write in a clear and easily understood manner. Keep your answer within the scope of the question as stated.	Link to articles which may have further information relevant to the question. Be polite to users, especially ones new to Wikipedia. A little fun is fine, but don't be rude. The reference desk is not a soapbox. Please avoid debating about politics, religion, or other sensitive issues.

See also Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language/FAQs for answers to frequently asked language and usage questions.

If you would like to have a text translated, you might want to post on this Wiktionary page.

June 5

Today today today

I dunno where to put this, so I'll put it here. What is it called when you see a word so much that it doesn't look like a word any more? Vitriol 04:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Defamiliarization? AnonMoos 15:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I know the feeling -after typing the same word a large number of times in a short space of time, I become absolutely convinced that I am speeling it wrong. And Wikipedia still doesn't have a Spell-checker! Rmhermen 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Rmhermen, sp. "spelling" (I would have corrected it, but I couldn't resist the irony). Daniel (‽) 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you consider the possibility of deliberate irony? On another note, please do not correct spelling mistakes you find in other people's posts. Outside article space, it is considered rude.Skittle 21:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Except that he did not correct it, he merely pointed out the error (and with good humour). I, for one, think that the policy of never drawing attention to grammar or spelling errors for fear of offending people is plain dumb. It fosters and rewards ignorance, which is surely the antithesis of what we're all here for. Wikipedia is all about being bold in changing the posts of others if some improvement is warranted. The ref desk is certainly a special case in that it is dialogue-based, but that doesn't mean we have to be so utterly PC towards each other that the whole process of communication descends into some sort of pit of stygean ordure. On the one hand some people complain that Wikipedia doesn't have a spell checker, then on the other hand we're told it's rude to correct the spelling mistakes of others. Let's get real, people.  :--) JackofOz 23:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't refering to pointing out errors, but to editing other people's posts. "I would have corrected it" implied sie was going to. And yes, sie didn't, which is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with pointing out 'I think you mean "spelling".' or doing as sie did, but actually editing the other person's post can be perceived as rude and lead to confusion. For example, you don't know for sure that it wasn't intentional, or making a point. You may have misunderstood their meaning. It may make the later conversation confusing to follow. And it can feel violating, if other people edit your conversational words. It is not about leaving errors unchecked, it is about not changing other people's words without their consent. I also appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction being pointed out, as it enables me to learn and avoid the mistake a second time. However, I feel angry when someone edits my words. It also makes it hard to remember what I have and haven't done, which I already have a problem with. Skittle 10:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. JackofOz 11:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I for one,appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction ..hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

Just wondering, you seem to have used the word "sie" for "she" on three different occasions in the same paragraph, making it extremely unlikely to be a typo. Was there some particular point that you are trying to make by using "sie" instead of "she"? Perhaps you'd like to introduce the German version of the pronoun into English? Just curious. Loomis51 01:39, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

See Sie_and_hir. It's a gender neutral pronoun. But I'm also wondering about something: seeing how Skittle used it to refer to a Wikipedian called Daniel, which is a pretty unambiguously male name, I would like to ask: huh? Rueckk 12:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't really trying to make a point, I'm just too lazy to click through to people's User pages to see if they call themselves something different to their usernames. Dbmag does not seem especially masculine to me, and even if it did I have encountered people with rather masculine usernames asking for advice on their menstrual cycles etc, so I try not to assume anything about anyone unless it is spelled out. At some point in the construction of that post, 'they' became ambiguous and I replaced it with 'sie' because I personally find it very weird to be referred to as a gender-specific pronoun that does not apply to me. It then became a matter of consistency to use it throughout. Nothing more, nothing less. Skittle 13:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation from French Wikipedia.

Can someone please translate this article into English from French-- [[1]] on Georges Sagnac.

As English wikipedia does not have an article on it, I can create it after translation.

Thank You in Advance.

P.S.-Please also copy the translated text on my user page.

--Siddhant 07:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the place to request translations of French Wikipedia articles is Wikipedia:Translation into English/French. Angr (talk) 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't really have the time (and both languages aren't my native either) so I won't do the translation. But "des ammées 70" doesn't look too correct.

The French page is corrected. We have an article for this guy here. The text looks like a translation from French.

Alas, Npovers and Citationnerds may destroy it, as the level of the French WP is base and almost primitive compared to this WP. So take a quick look quickly. --DLL 21:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I've put up a revised translation with some fixed wiki links in the Georges Sagnac article. I'm not personally familiar with this scientist, and the original article in French is lacking in details, so caveat lector, as I may have misunderstood what was intended. I've put hidden comments in the article for those who are inclined to improve it. --Tachikoma 16:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about a question

Does the following sentence require a question mark at the end? "In practice, the question facing us is how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down." --Shantavira 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No it does not require one. Sentences only require a question mark if they're direct questions to the addressed. JIP | Talk 13:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No. It would, however, require a question mark if it were rewritten as follows: In practice, the question facing us is "How many roads must a man walk down?" --DavidGC 14:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You have confused yourself by your wording which, while correct in conversation, leads to this apparent conflict when written. I would reword it "In practice, the question facing us is how we are to know how many roads a man must walk down." since this avoids any expectation of a question mark. Yours could also be rewritten 'In practice, the question facing us is "how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down?".'. Skittle 14:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Not all questions are necessarily questions. JackofOz 20:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Good to be King -- origin of phrase

What is the origin of the phrase "It's good to be king"? When was it first used? Does it pre-date Mel Brooks? 198.134.2.62 19:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure many kings have said that, at least until people started getting wise to them. How about King Tiu? --Shantavira 13:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 6

Ablative of opus

Moved by JackofOz from Wikipedia Talk:Reference Desk

In Classical Latin, could anyone please tell me if the word "pro" takes the ablative; I am thinking, in particular, of Newman's Apologia pro vita sua. If so, what would the ablative be for the word opus!

Thank you in advance!

Yes, pro takes the ablative. The ablative of opus is opere. Angr (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that we are talking about ablative : is there a difference in pronuncation between vita sua in ablative?Evilbu 14:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends which conventions of Latin pronunciation you're following. In Classical Latin, the nominative is [ˈwiːta ˈsua] and the ablative is [ˈwiːtaː suaː] with a long ā at the end of each word. In both Italianizing and Germanizing pronunciation, though, no pronunciation distinction is made, and both are [ˈvita ˈsua]. Angr (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I am mostly interested in classical Latin. My books often explicitly wrote ${\bar {a}}$ , but actually WRITING that difference is "not done" right?Evilbu 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the first time I've ever seen someone use the math markup to indicate a long a! It's right there in the "insert" box below the edit box. Anyway, marking long vowels is customary in pedagogical works (textbooks, dictionaries, etc.), but the Romans themselves very rarely marked long vowels. Occasionally in some inscriptions you'll see an acute accent or a doubled vowel, but both of those are pretty rare. Angr (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

In Renaissance / 18th-century citations of Latin, you'll occasionally see an a-circumflex â used to distinguish the singular ablative case of the first declension from the singular nominative case of the first declension (so that you might write "pro vitâ suâ"). However, this was usually only done when necessary to avoid ambiguity, and there's no ambiguity here. AnonMoos 03:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So it wasn't just my book that did that, thanks. About the ā I was wondering how you did it, I though perhaps one of the (few!) disadvantages of Azerty :) Evilbu 09:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I'm in Germany, I use Qwertz, and ā isn't on it! :-) Angr (talk) 10:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

using brand names instead of proper names

Hi, I know a word exists to describe using a brand name instead of a proper name (for example Hoover instead of vacuum cleaner, sellotape instead of stickytape, tippex instead of corrrection fluid etc). But I can not recall what the word is. Any ideas? thanks

Genericized trademark? -lethe ^{talk +} 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Using a proper name (e.g. a brand name) instead of a common noun is usually called antonomasia. Aurelien Langlois 16:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

English dictionaries usually flag these as proprietary terms. --Shantavira 18:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article is at genericized trademark. Are you British? You must not be North American, as I have never heard of sellotape or tippex. moink 05:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Those are certainly brands used generically in Britain, so it seems likely they are British. However, they could be used in Australia and other places too for all I know. Skittle 09:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tipp-Ex is actually a German brand, but it's the best known correction fluid throughout Western Europe, including Britain. Sellotape is indeed a British brand, and it too is also available in continental Europe. Not in Australia though - the best known adhesive tape there is Durex. This causes some amusement to British people, as in Britain the name Durex is used for a brand of condom! AndyofKent 10:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

gross domestic readership skills.

what does gross domestic readership skills mean and its significance to developing countries?

Higher literacy rates in a population improve the chances that a piece of homework given out will be completed by the receiver rather than being passed out to strangers to do it for them. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 15:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

other words for "healer"

I'm looking for ancient words for the word healer, preferably from English/Northern European roots. Could you also include pronunciation? Many thanks..

Uhh...well, Old English had lǽce for "doctor", pronounced like "LAH-kuh" or something... - Greatgavini 16:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was pronounced [ˈlæːtʃə] (sort of like "LATCH-uh" but with a nice long vowel in the first syllable). Angr (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And the words for "doctor" in the Scandinavian languages stem from the same root:

• Swedish: Läkare
• Norwegian (nynorsk): Lækjar
• Norwegian (bokmål) Lege
• Danish: Læge

--vibo56 ^talk 17:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably, as well as Slavic "lek" (cure)

• Serbian: Lekar
• Croatian: Liječnik
• Czech: Lékař
• Polish: Lekarz

--Duja 13:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hence leech. Isn't language great? EdC 18:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

German question

The phrase "in the underground/subway": is it "in den U-Bahn" or "in der U-Bahn"? It seems to me that U-Bahn would be in the dative case (and therefore "in den"), but a sentence in this wikipedia.de article disagrees. I google-d wikipedia.de and both forms seem to be prevalent. --Doug (talk) 19:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it seems that "in der U-Bahn" is suffixed by another word, changing the gender. But I'm still confused. Isn't U-Bahn feminine? Isn't 'den' masculine accusative? I have a German exam on Thursday, I should really know this :( --Doug (talk) 19:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dative = dem der dem den, gah, nevermind --Doug (talk) 19:13, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It is "die U-Bahn" in nominative, thus feminine. "In der U-bahn", that is a dative.

Evilbu 19:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to explain those Google results, in case anyone's still confused: there are many hits for phrases such as in den U-Bahn-Stationen, which will show up on a search for in den U-Bahn. Henry^Flower 19:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And "in den U-Bahnen" that would be correct too right?Evilbu 19:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. I thought that the dative case went (masculine to plural) "dem den dem den" for some reason when in fact feminine dative is "der". Bah. And yeah, Henry, you're right about that. --Doug (talk) 19:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What is this text?

http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_text.gif

This was asked about above, part of the same game show, I guess. It looks like backwards Arabic, for example, the word on the far left of the top line is a reverse of مرحبا marhaba which means "Hi." I also see familiar prepositions in there backwards, like في fi ("in"), على `ala ("on"). I am sorry I don't really know Arabic well enough to figure out what the whole thing says, but it does look like the same few lines are repeated over and over, so there isn't much work there for whoever might be able to translate it.

I note that last year this same game show was accused of using Wikipedia for viral marketing, though a producer denied it … [2]--Cam 23:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Quebec City - French Speaking population

What percentage of Quebec City speak French at home?

According to Statistics Canada, 647,925 of the 673,105 residents of the Quebec City Census Metropolitan Area are francophones, who presumably all speak French at home. That makes 96.3% just with francophones. Including a few of the English/French bilinguals, it's probably about 97%-98%. However, for just the City proper, (the "ville") it's slightly lower, about 95% francophone. --ByeByeBaby 21:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

last names

i need some help with the meanings of a few last names. Castellucci is one of them and Gronski is the other.-thank you

Gronski sounds Eastern European. Maybe it means "one from Gronsk?". could be Polish. Castellucci is almost definitely Italian. It looks plural, and is probably derived from Castello, or "Castle." --Dlayiga 05:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Gronski might mean "Greenlander". —Bkell (talk) 05:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually that's probably unlikely. The word Grónsko means Greenland in Czech and Slovak, producing the adjective grónský for Greenlandic; but the name Gronski looks Polish, and the Polish word for Greenland is not Grónsko but Grenlandia. The other Slavic languages appear to use words more similar to Grenlandia than to Grónsko. —Bkell (talk) 05:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There is the Polish village of Grońsko, though... —Zero Gravitas 08:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

According to ancestry.com, Castellucci is the patronimic or plural of Castelluccio, which at the same time is the habitational name from any of numerous places named or named with Castelluccio or Castellucchio, from a diminutive of castello ‘castle’, ‘fortified building’. As to Gronski, it's the habitational name from Gronsko in Poznan voivodeship. --RiseRover|^talk 19:52, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, wow...one of my favorite topics! My last name means loudmouth— Schnautz

Bob 15:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

June 7

Audio in Latin and other langauges

I 'm trying to learn Latin, French, Spanish, and other languages. What I need is to hear conversations in those languages and I frequently search video.yahoo.com and video.google.com. Are there any other free audios in those langauges ? Not much for the classical latin though. --Jondel 06:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

For Latin, you could try YLE's Nuntii Latini] - the broadcast version is made available in RealAudio format. 85.210.4.124 16:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Gratias ago!--Jondel 23:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"Gratiam ago"? --212.202.184.238 19:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

knowledge of other languages (like English) in Japan

I was just wondering what kind of languages children/adults normally learn in Japan. Japan is quite a modern country and has a decent educational system. One might expect that they another language at school?

My uncle who has been to Japan tells me that one can be quite lost there as a foreigner. Not only are even in airports most signs only in the Japanese writing system, most people there don't know any English.

I must say, when i watch Japanese manga (as my names suggests I like to do that :) ), I sometimes have doubts too. In Neon Genesis Evangelion they speak of "the fifth children" for instance. Isn't there anyone who notices such a thing during production. Sometimes when some parts of a song are in English, I don't hear it because it is pronounced in such a weird way.

Could it be that, regardless of economic status a foreigner like me (Dutch speaking but with some French/English abilities) is actually better off in Asian countries like Vietnam or China than Japan?

Evilbu 18:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

They normally study English, but I wouldn't say that they learn it. Interestingly, English used to be compulsory; AFAIK it no longer is, but it's by far the most common foreign language studied. Henry^Flower 18:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, usually the number of years is quite a good indicator...although my best language is not the one I had to study the most. I've had two years of German which was a joke. Is it comparable?

All languages have about the same complexity: "Very complex." If the morphology is easy, maybe the syntax is hard. If the syntax is simple, maybe the phonology is complicated.

This might lead one to think that all languages are difficult to learn. However, some languages are similar to each other but some languages are very different, which can make learning either easier or harder depending on your native language and your target language.

English and Japanese are very dissimilar, more so than English and German, AFAIK. Japanese and Korean have a lot in common, and not surprisingly, English is hard for Koreans too. Most people in Korea who have learned English for more than 12 6 years probably can't read English novels. --KJ 02:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

So I'd say, "Not comparable." --KJ 02:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They don't try to speak the language although they can perfect the grammar. I live in Tokyo and studied Spanish. My Japanese classmates perfected the grammar specially in tests but I could speak the language to get by. They are too conscious of mistakes that they would make. They have what they term Japanese-complex , something like inferiority complex when outside of Japan or when not speaking EnglishJapanese. Yes they study English throughout their school life but they prefer not to use English.--Jondel 02:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I teach English in a Japanese high school, and I find that in many cases, Japanese students' only desire with regard to English is to learn enough to pass tests and get into University. Beyond that, they aren't interested. So for the majority, they learn rules and vocabulary without learning to communicate. Plus Jondel is right in that many students don't try to do stuff for fear of making a mistake and looking foolish in front of their peers. Even so, English is a lot more commonly studied than other languages. I would, however, take issue with what you say about the lack of English in airports, etc. All the Japanese airports I've been in (Narita and Centrair) had most signs in English (some in Thai, Chinese and Spanish too), and I had no trouble finding my way around the country when I first arrived and spoke no Japanese. I live in a fairly rural area and signs on the road and at railway stations are all in both English and Japanese, and the announcements on trains are translated into English too. I'd say it's a fairly easy country in which to get around. Phileas 04:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Tanga = thong?

Some languages use the word "tanga" for a thong or G-string underwear. What is the etymology of this term "tanga"?--Sonjaaa 18:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OED says it is from ntanga meaning loincloth in the Kimbundu language via Portugese. MeltBanana 19:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I thought it had a Tupi origin. —Gennaro Prota^•Talk 19:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Many thanx,I knew it was nothing to do with the pop but never did know the origin(hotclaws**== 12:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Greek word question

What is the Greek word for someone who has a fascination with some animals? For example, ants. "Myrmecophile" could be seen as implying a sexual desire for ants, which is not what I'm talking about. "Myrmecomaniac", OTOH, could be seen as implying an all-encompassing obsession with ants, which won't do either. What I mean is a person who enjoys learning things about ants and observing ants in nature. JIP | Talk 18:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The -phile suffix doesn't indicate a sexual desire; it just means "love" or "affinity". Bibliophiles don't have sexual desires for books, for example. That being said, the word myrmecophile does exist; it means "an invertebrate or plant that has a symbiotic relationship with ants (for example, being tended and protected by ants, or living inside an ant nest)", according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Myrmecologist is a word which means "an expert in or student of myrmecology". I don't know if that's closer to what you want. —Bkell (talk) 18:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean about the -phile suffix, but it does have a sexual meaning in some terms (such as zoophile). But neither of the words you suggest will do for what I'm after - myrmecophile won't do, because I'm looking for a word for a person, and myrmecologist won't do, because I'm looking for a word for a layman. JIP | Talk 19:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

A colombomane is a pigeon fancier, with no connotations of obsession as far as I know. The same with balletomane. So myrmecomane or "ant fancier"?

Yes, Latin is not so bad. Why tryin' Greek words all the time ? Did they rule the world once ? (Maybe Alex was an hellenophone, but he was from Independant Makedonia).

Myrmecomane is a heavily Frenchified form of a pure Greek word. A Latin word would be based on the root "Formic-". AnonMoos 13:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Czech preposition "od"

Czech has seven cases: nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, locative, and instrumental. I was wondering which case corresponds to the preposition "od", meaning from. My guess would be dative, but I could imagine it being genitive or instrumental as well. I thought I'd check here before I go in search of Czech-speaking Wikipedians. Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 19:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe it's the genitive case. —Bkell (talk) 21:23, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Ano. Jedu od Prahy do New Yorku. -- Mwalcoff 23:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Dĕkuji vam! Bhumiya (said/done) 23:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Another Czech question

Encouraged by those quick responses, I have another question about the pronunciation of the short vowels. Are "y" and "i" always pronounced as in "tick", even at the end of a word? And what exactly is the pronunciation of "u"? I've been told that it rhymes with "book". Bhumiya (said/done) 23:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but from what I can gather from Czech orthography and the vowel tables on IPA, "y" and "i" are pronounced the same (like "tick"), as are í and ý (both pronounced like "beet"). And "u" (close back rounded vowel) is indeed a bit like "book".

Wow, I'm learning things myself from this. :-) I wonder if there is actually someone who knows Czech out there who can back me up on this... -THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 20:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Every orthographic guide I can find says "i" and "y" should be pronounced as in "tick", but it seems strange to pronounce it that way at the end of a word. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I dont speak Czech but why would it be strange? Jameswilson 22:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems strange to our ears because English doesn't have too many (if any) words that end in a "short i" sound. Actually, in my experience, "y" and "i" without an accent mark actually sometimes do sound a bit like long i, especially at the end of words. -- Mwalcoff 23:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That's precisely right. I always end up pronouncing it like "ee", or else lapsing into a schwa. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought Czech has only five vowel phonemes. The difference between i/y and í/ý is a matter of vowel length and not a different vowel. That's the impression I gather from a Czech recording I'm listening to. --Chris S. 06:59, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

June 8

Italien translation

Hi, could someone translate this to English for me please?

"In Italia non esiste una lega professionistica ma dilettantistica di lacrosse, Roma lacrosse club fondata da Robert Corna. Inoltre esiste l'inter-crosse, gioco simile al lacrosse, giocato però in spazi piccoli e chiusi. Si gioca tra 4 squadre, tutte della Provincia di Lecco (Lecco, Vercurago, Merate e Olginate)."

It's from it:Lacrosse#In Italia. Thanks! --Yarnalgo 01:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops! I didn't see the link to the wikitionary page. I'll post this there but you are still welcome to translate it here. --Yarnalgo 02:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it says "In Italy there is no professional lacrosse league, only an amateur league, the Rome Lacrosse Club, founded by Robert Corna. Elsewhere there exists Inter-Crosse, a game similar to lacrosse, played (I don't know this part). (Something) four teams, all in the Province of Lecce (Lecce, Vercurago, Merate, and Olginate)." Sorry...but hey, that's pretty good considering I never learned Italian...it's just like French and Latin. Adam Bishop 06:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The middle part is "...a game similar to lacrosse, but played in small and enclosed places. It is played between four teams..." --Cam 06:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thank you guys. --Yarnalgo 20:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"Make sure to..." / "Make sure and..."

I am having trouble finding reference to this phrase in a style / grammar guide.

Which is correct? ("Make sure to..." sounds better to me, but I cannot find anything definitive).

Either one would sound natural to me, depending on context. --KJ 04:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, the first one seems more formal than the second. --KJ 04:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone say "make sure and." It seems like the phrase requires an infinitive verb, which is what "to (whatever)" is. Adam Bishop 04:38, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that "make sure to" is the better of the two, although "make sure and" is common in informal use (at least where I'm from). Using and doesn't really make sense, though. If I say "Please go outside and check the mail," I can split this up into two sentences:

Please go outside. Please check the mail.

The sentence "Please make sure and close the door," on the other hand, can't:

Please make sure. Please close the door.

This indicates that this sentence isn't two things joined together, so and doesn't make sense here. —Bkell (talk) 04:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it makes just as much sense as the first example. --SeizureDog 08:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Or even better, "Make sure that you..." —Keenan Pepper 04:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It may not make sense, but it is widely used. Still, I would always prefer "to". Bhumiya (said/done) 05:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Of the two, definitely "Make sure to", although "make sure that you..." is better. Think about it logically: what are you making sure of? Doing something. So you are making sure that something has been done. If it's something in the future from the time the words are said, then you're making sure that something to do has been done (hence "make sure to do"). There's no point in making sure and (then) doing something, since if you've made sure then it's already been done. Grutness...wha? 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What about "try to ..." / "try and ..."? Conscious 11:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd find both of these natural as well, although the first would seem more formal. Anyway, IMHO it would be a logical fallacy to try and split "Try and split" into two sentences, then exclaim that it doesn't work, and then claim that the sentence is wrong. "And" is clearly something more than a simple "sentence/word joiner" in this case. --KJ 12:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

And if you've never heard someone say "make sure and" or "try and split" before, now you've heard it more than twice. For the record, I learned my English in Greater London, although most of the English I've heard since then is American English. Today I heard someone from Australia say "try and answer" as well. --KJ 12:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To me, "try and do" sounds like determination to do something at all costs, rather than merely "trying to do". But I guess it's indeed a fallacy, and the meaning is equivalent. Are these variants equally frequent in US and UK/Commonwealth? Conscious 20:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To me it's the same as "make sure". What the point of "try and do"? If you succeed when you try, there's no need to "do" afterwards, so "try and do" - which logically means "try, then afterwards do" automatically assumes that the try will be a failure. You don't say that you are "trying and doing" something - you say you are "trying to do" it. So there's no excuse for "try and do". Grutness...wha? 03:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Language doesn't need to have a point; it's language. :) --KJ 04:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I found that the very first google link for "try and" says it's an error (it's a page of Paul Brians, Department of English, Washington State University). Conscious 05:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

People have said the same for split infinitives. Don't trust the "experts" on language. Don't trust dictionaries. ;P --KJ 06:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

here's a potentially useful conversation on this matter. KWH 14:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sign language demographics

What is the most widely spoken form of sign language (as in 'deaf sign") and how many people are fluent in it (and in sign languages generally)? There doesn't seem to be any information about the demographics at either sign language or list of sign languages... My guess is American Sign Language, which is listed as having upwards of 500,000 users. Grutness...wha? 10:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems likely; British Sign Language only has 250,000. I'm guessing looking at each article's page will tell you, tiresome as it is. Skittle 13:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

BANZSL or Turkish Sign Language could be contenders, but it seems unlikely. Hard figures are tricky to get for many of these. Skittle 13:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation of Latin "Ut Sit"

There is a 1982 papal decree entitle "Ut Sit". What does "Ut Sit" mean?--Alecmconroy 15:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

"So that may be". It's probably the first two words of the first sentence; the entire sentence (including the subject!) is needed to make sense out of it. Angr (talk) 15:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

One of the prayers of Opus Dei's founder Josemaría Escrivá was Domina, ut sit! ("Lady, that it might be!"), according to our article on Escrivá. (The 1982 decree was about Opus Dei.) --Cam 16:01, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The sense is that of Amen! --DLL 21:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

From the song: "Mother Mary ... words of wisdom, Let It Be". Any connection that anyone knows of? --Seejyb 20:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

June 9

Chinese title: Lu lu ching i

Prince Chu Tsai-Yu first calculated the twelfth root of two in his treatise lu lu ching i or "a clear explanation of that which concerns the lu". What are the tones of lu lu ching i? What other transliterations are possible for lu lu ching i and Chu Tsai-Yu? I've seen the name of the instrument spelled lü, with an umlaut. Is the umlaut correct? Does it mean anything? —Keenan Pepper 00:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Equal temperament gives us his name: 朱載堉, Zhu Zaiyu (first tone, third or forth, don't know). Checking for the rest. Kusma (討論) 00:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The book is the 律呂精義, Lǜ Lǚ Jīng Yì. We have an article about the guy at zh:朱載堉. The umlaut is correct, and means that it is pronounced like a German "ü", not like a German "u". (Probably this is explained in Hanyu Pinyin). Kusma (討論) 00:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! So what's that in IPA, something like [ˋly ˇly ˉtɕiŋ ˋji]? —Keenan Pepper 00:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, what is the modern name of the lu? Is it one of the instruments at Traditional Chinese musical instruments#Bamboo (竹)? —Keenan Pepper 00:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure that 呂 is an instrument? According to this, it is the name of a scale. 律 can mean "tuning instrument" in Classical Chinese, according to [3], not only "law" and "rule" as in modern Chinese. Due to my almost complete lack of knowledge of classical Chinese, I can't say very much about how to best translate the title. Kusma (討論) 00:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the lü wasn't an instrument for musical performance, but only for tuning, somewhat like a Western pitch pipe or tuning fork, so that makes sense. —Keenan Pepper 01:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Keenan is correct, there're 12 律呂 (indeed 6 is called 律, 6 called 呂), corresponding to the Western C, #C, D, #D...--K.C. Tang 02:16, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Spanish Ojala

Can I say, 'Ojala que me dijieras más antes/temprano.' for 'I wish you told me earlier.' ?--Jondel 01:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked a chilena at a store down the street and got 'Hubiera sido mejor que me dijera antes.' Thanks myself... and uh others who will participate.Ojala is used only with the future or hopes, etc. I wonder if Ishould do more of this one man conversation. :D --Jondel 03:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If you wanted to use Ojalá, it's best to use it in the future -- "I hope that you will tell me afterwards", Ojalá que me digas después. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll reiterate that ojalá is best for the future, but having said that, I have heard it used for the past in the way that you have written (usually without the más). - Draeco 06:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Mil gracias, Zoe and Draeco.--Jondel 05:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Password Game

What's a word that is the same in both German and English, doesn't need to be translated into either, is 5 letters long, and has the letter "A" and "W."

• I believe the answer is "waltz". Bhumiya (said/done) 10:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. Isn't the English word "waltz" derived from the German "walzer"? JackofOz 11:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

JackofOz is right. The German for "waltz" is Walzer. Angr (talk) 11:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"Aaaww! meaning an exclaimation when you see something cute(hotclaws**== 12:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC))

Um, a German would pronounce that "aaaww" as "ooovv". I haven't heard any Germans making that sound. Anyway, I'm going with "wagon". --BluePlatypus 16:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As in "Volkswagen"? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 16:38, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"wagen" is more common. But "wagon" is existing spelling variant though. --BluePlatypus 22:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Would "Wales" be counted as a "German word"? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

How about diwan? Admittedly, it's not a common word, nor the most common spelling in English. —Bkell (talk) 18:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Or fatwa. —Bkell (talk) 18:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The question was "What's a word...?" so I assume there's multiple answers. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Aha. I think I know the answer the question is looking for: Schwa. —Bkell (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Also squaw. —Bkell (talk) 19:04, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One more and I'm done: Wicca. —Bkell (talk) 19:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation to Spanish (title added)

How would one say "system-on-a-chip" in Spanish? 198.237.142.5 18:01, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Sistema en un chip? (Not a native speaker, so not sure how that sounds.) —Keenan Pepper 18:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way you could put that phrase into context? Otherwise it's pretty hard to translate. - Draeco 06:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

You probably want Circuito Ingegrado para Aplicaciones Especificas. That's the title of the Spanish article on Application-Specific Integrated Circuits (ASICs). --Halcatalyst 18:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

disc-ing?

Hello. I work in a television newsroom (WNEP-TV), and it seems the language is not keeping up with technology. Several decades ago, our photographers shot on film, and as a gerund verb they were said to be filming something. With the advent of videotape, the photographers would be taping their news stories. Recently we got rid of tape, and are now using video discs. (They are similar in appearance to DVDs and CDs, but formatted for higher-quality video.) My question is, does this now require a new verb form, disc-ing? — Michael J 22:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Recording? We still "dial" a phone. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I think English so far has come up with burning as in "burning onto a disc". The verb disking is used for agriculture, there's no precedent for discing that I know. - Draeco 06:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably because it would fly in the face of English orthography. It should be disking or even discking rather than discing. —Keenan Pepper 06:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The word discing is a perfectly acceptable way of spelling disking, as used in agriculture. For years it's been my example of an English word with a hard c before an i. In fact the Oxford English Dictionary lists the verb disc as the primary spelling and disk as an alternate, and explicitly gives the spelling discing, as well as citations for disced and discing. There is no mention of the spelling discking. If you're going by analogy with picnicking, is the difference possibly because the c in disc does not immediately follow a vowel? —Bkell (talk) 07:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems silly to me to choose words for things that will likely need to be replaced every few years, as the technology changes. "Recording" seems like a better way to go. If I can segway into a related topic, what would one call riding a segway scooter using such technology dependent wording, "segging" ? "scooting" ? StuRat 16:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, please - you don't segway into a topic, you segue. Segway is only ever a proper noun. Natgoo 23:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyways, people will only start "segging" when Segways become cool, and with people like the PM of Japan endorsing it, I don't think that's ever going happen.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

On the naming of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi

Talk:Saddam Hussein/naming has a long discussion over whether or not Saddam Hussein should be referred to as Saddam or Hussein (or al-Tikriti). Based on that precedent, shouldn't we be referring to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as "Abu Musab"? (I have also listed this at the Village Pump). User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:26, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

This page on Arabic naming conventions might be of help. --Halcatalyst 18:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Odd Writing Behaviour

I'm not sure whether to post this here or in the Science section, as it appears that it can apply to both.

When writing, I have the odd habit of occasionally, but often enough that I'm curious, skipping either the first or last letter of a word that I'm writing.

For example, when writing the word "WIKIPEDIA", (I tend to always print in capital block letters and never use cursive, the reason for which is a whole other story for a whole different question) although I'd usually get it right, an unusual number of times I'd look at the page and see: "IKIPEDIA" or "WIKIPEDI". The same goes for numbers like telephone numbers, which is far more problematic, as it can be maddening to look up someone's number that I've jotted down and find that I'm one digit short!

The problem isn't all that serious, merely an inconvenience at times. I'm just wondering if this is a common enough phenomenon for which perhaps there is even a name, or if this is simply my own, personal, unique habit that few if any others tend to experience. Loomis51 00:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Happens to me to. Sometimes I'll even write down several letters of a word starting with the second, then realize what I've done and go back and write the first letter. I wouldn't worry about it. Call it very mild dysgraphia. —Keenan Pepper 05:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This happens to me, although only when typing, not in handwriting. I think it's because I tend to hit the first and last keys lighter than the middle keys, and apparently this isn't always hard enough to register. StuRat 15:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a similar sort of problem - in words that contain "chn" such as "technique" or "arachnid" I almost always omit the "n". I'm a good speller, so this is one of the only things I have a problem with. Does anybody have a possible reason for this? --Bearbear 16:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I've never heard of someone that does that. I have a similar problem that I write completely different words than I intend to write, for example "anyone" becomes "anywhere" or "complicate" becomes "competition", but I know that's just because I sometimes write faster than I can think! (I just wrote "thought" instead of "think" > <)  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

June 10

Rounders/Netball

I was looking at a French-English dictionary, and I saw they had to explain what these games were because it said people in France never played it. So my questions are: 1. Do (at least some) French people have any knowledge of these games and how they are played? 2. Is it just in France or are these games specific to few countries. 3. I'm sure the translation for "netball" would follow the same pattern as other -ball games (i.e. remain the same in French) but would "rounders" be given another name? If not, would the pronounciation be anglicized or would it follow the pronouncation as if it were a French word? --Bearbear 16:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

According to our articles on netball and rounders, they seem to be confined primarily to Commonwealth countries; in particular rounders which is essentially only played in Great Britain and Ireland. (I'm from Canada, and I've never heard of anyone playing it.) Handily, our Netball article has an interwiki link to French Wikipedia, where they call it le Netball. Because both Rounders and Netball are such peculiarily English and English-Commonwealth phenomena, I'm guessing most other languages would simply use those names and the anglicized pronounciations. Of course, baseball and basketball, which are similar, are much more popular and better-known worldwide. --ByeByeBaby 17:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

My Spanish/English dictionaries also give a description and no translation (thus "netball" and "rounders"); the same goes for my Arabic dictionary though it's not very comprehensive. As an American, I also have no idea about either sport, and I would bet a large majority of my countrymen are equally ignorant. - Draeco 23:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Homophones of World

Is whirled a homophone of world? Are there any more?Patchouli 17:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose it might be in some pronunciations - not mine - and I suppose that "whorled" might be as well. - Nunh-huh 18:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

When spoken in some accents, weld, welled, walled, wild and wold are pretty close too.--Shantavira 18:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster's dictionary has \' wər(-ə)l\ = whirl and \' wər(-ə)ld\ = world. Does this mean the standard American way of pronouncing whirled and world is exactly the same?Patchouli 18:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Probably, although some Americans pronounce wh differently than w (they pronounce the former as /hw/). I pronounce whirled and world differently for this reason, although I appear to be in the minority, at least in my part of the country (Nebraska). My friends occasionally make fun of me for this. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 19:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

"the standard American way of pronouncing" does not exist. --LarryMac 23:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

They're exact homophones for most people here in Tallahassee, Florida. —Keenan Pepper 20:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say they are. Visualize Whirled Peas. --Zemyla^t 21:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

We used to have an article on this; now it's been merged into a larger article. See Phonological history of English consonants#Wine-whine merger. Angr (talk) 21:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Aaaah! Thank you Zemlya! I've been wondering what "Visualise whirled peas" meant for years! Grutness...wha? 01:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Evildoers vs Do-gooders?

Why do we use those two terms? Why not do-evilers or gooddoers? --Zemyla^t 21:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing to avoid the awkward combination of two vowels or two consonants? --ByeByeBaby 00:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Evil-doers" represents a common type of English compound (noun + verb + agent suffix) which goes all the way back to Indo-European, while "Do-gooder" represents a verb+noun type of compound which is not too common or productive in the English language, and which approximates towards pure phrasal words such as "wannabe" or "has-been" (which are not true compounds at all). I would assume that the difference is that "evil-doer" is an ordinary (or even slightly literary) English word formed in a normal morphological manner, while "do-gooder" originated as a kind of derogatory or semi-contemptuous slang term (which explains the minor anomaly of the agent suffix "-er" being added onto something which is not a verb -- neither "good" nor "do-good" are verbs). AnonMoos 14:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

June 11

Japanese "Just kidding!"?

This has been bugging me for a long time now, but what is the exact Japanese phrase that is often translated as "just kidding"? Examples of the phrase in use are:

• Soul Calibur 2 (in Japanese) - Xianghua says it ALL THE FREAKING TIME (she actually says several variations.

The best I can get is nanten ne (難点ね), which would be something like "you're so weak (gullible)". I'm not certain of what exactly they're saying though, which makes this really hard for me to translate on my own. Would like romaji and kanji of what is being said please. --SeizureDog 03:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Note: I made the file start pretty much as soon as the phrase does, and it ends up skipping over the sound in my Windows Media Player, you might want to try an alternate player (VLC works fine).--SeizureDog 03:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

She is saying nan te ne (何てね). --Kusunose 13:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Which said sarcastically apparently implies that what was just said is rediculous, hence the "just kidding" translation. It's not very common, I've never actually heard anyone say it in that way before.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So they're literally just saying "what"? A lot seems to be lost in translation here... And I have been finding it to be rather common in anime. I know I've heard it used at least 5 times. It's used more than "uso desu" from what I've been watching at least. Any other phrases that could be translated as "just kidding" I should know? --SeizureDog 06:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Unduking?

Is there a term for the dismissal or deposition of a nobleman, e.g. an earl, duke, marquis, etc, analogous to the term "defrocking"? Bhumiya (said/done) 04:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Not a single term, as such. Speaking only of the British peerage system, if someone inherits a title he doesn't want to have, he is (since the passage of the Peerage Act 1963) able to "disclaim" it. Once this is done, it cannot be undone. On his death, and only on his death, the title will pass to his heirs as if he had held it. A peer can involuntarily lose his title by several means: the more common was being "attainted" on being convicted of a crime, imaginary or otherwise. His title and all his worldly goods were thereupon forfeited to the Crown: his heirs got nothing (often this was reversed after a generation or two). A peer can also be divested of his titles by Act of Parliament: notably this happened via the Titles Deprivation Act 1917 by which British peers or princes who served in an enemy military force, or rendered assistance to or voluntarily resided in an enemy nation were deprived of their British titles and honours. And, of course, when a peer becomes king, the title is said to "merge in the Crown" and ceases to exist. - Nunh-huh 05:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Bhumiya (said/done) 08:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

About the Vacabulary

I am stedent of Ninth class my name is Zubair and I have a question about the english language I have need easy vacabulary and those words are use our daily life and mostly sentences. I have hope that you give give me a suggestion about that and tell me about that how can I improve English language more my pronounciation is week how can I Improve this skill. Thankyou Sir Bye —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 22:37, June 10, 2006 (talk • contribs) 80.247.152.67.

Make sure that you all know all of the basic 1500 words shown here.

Corrections to your post:

• Vacabulary → vocabulary
• stedent → student
• Ninth class → ninth grade
• week → weak (a week is seven days; weak is to be not strong)
• pronounciation → pronunciation

Hope that helps.--SeizureDog 08:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

'Ninth grade' is American; UK is 'year nine'; Indian is 'class nine' or 'ninth standard'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.92.196.79 (talk • contribs) 10:11, June 11, 2006 (UTC)

In Canadian English, "Ninth Grade" is referred to as "Grade Nine", (or, in my jurisdiction, at least, it's official name is "Secondary III", (referring to the third year of High School) but nobody I know actually uses that form in casual conversation. It's much more commonly known here as "Grade Nine"). Loomis51 21:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It is also called a freshman year in the US (when you are in your freshman year you are a freshman).--Yarnalgo 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

You might find the Simple English version of Wikipedia useful.--Shantavira 10:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Your post using correct grammar (and spelling, etc.):

I am a student in ninth grade. My name is Zubair and I have a question about the English language. I have a basic vocabulary and the sentences and words I use are sentences and words used in daily life. I hope that you give me a suggestion about my English and tell me how I can improve my English. Also, my pronunciation is weak and I hope that you can tell me how I can improve this skill. Thank you sir. Bye

--Yarnalgo 18:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

For learning natural English, outside of school, I recommend you watch English movies with English subtitles (this is easy if you have a DVD player).

• Your reading speed will increase
• You will become accustomed to English at a natural speed (it will be easier to understand fast English)
• You will learn common, useful English, not boring, often useless textbook English
• You can watch interesting movies while you learn

If you want to improve your pronunciation, talk to your friends in English. If you don't have English speaking friends, then you can only practice by yourself. Listen to what you hear in English, and try to copy it exactly.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that both the audio and the subtiles should be on English though. For learning it is better to have one be your native language and the other be English. It's not fun to watch a movie full of parts you don't understand, and he's not going to learn anything if there's nothing to judge by.--SeizureDog 09:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Also

Which is the correct use of the word also

1. There were several others also.
2. There were also several others.
3. There also were several others.
4. Also there were several others.

are they all correct in their respective languages (american/british english) or is one a colloquialism, or something. Philc _T^E_C^I 16:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Number 3 is a little stylistically awkward, and Number 4 demands a comma. Otherwise, numbers 1,2,4 are all perfectly fine, but could have different rhetorical emphases (depending on exactly what the intended function of the sentence is with respect to the sentences surrounding it). AnonMoos 16:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd say 1 is colloquial, 2 is standard, 3 is dubious. 4 is considered dubious by some, which may be a reason not to use it. Henry^Flower 16:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think 3 is fine. It's a bit more emphatic. Maybe, it requires commas or pauses on both sides of the also mnewmanqc

Hmm, if you put commas in, then it seems to me to be saying "In that place, as in other previously mentioned places, were several others." —Bkell (talk) 20:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As can 4. I'd say 2 was the clearest and least ambiguous, to my ears. Skittle 21:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

June 12

Examinations

What does a student do with an examination? Does he "give the exam" or "take the exam" or "sit for the exam" or "participate in the exam" or ...?

Also, what happens when he succeeds? Does he "pass the exam" or "be successful in the exam" or "qualify the exam" or ...? I get the feeling that "qualifying an exam" is a peculiar result of translation from some Indian language, because (1) I hear it very often, but it sounds odd to me (2) most search-engine results for "qualify {an|the} exam[ination]" are pages from India.

How do I type ellipses? Shreevatsa 05:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

A student can "take the exam", "sit for the exam", or "participate in the exam" but the term, "take the exam" is a lot more widely used. If they were the one to "give the exam" they would be the teacher. Also, "passing the exam" and "being successful in the exam" are also both correct, and I think you theory of the Indian translation is correct because the term "qualifying an exam" is not only not used but it is not correct grammar (it would be "qualifying for an exam" which means something different).

To type an ellipse, just type three periods ("...") or you can type it with spaces in between (". . ."). It also works the same way with asterisks ("***" or "* * *") but periods are more widely used. --Yarnalgo 05:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Indian translation" seems to be alive and well (lol). What you just described is ellipsis. An ellipse is an elongated circle. JackofOz 07:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Grandparent

Do people in some cultures differentiate granny from grandma, likewise grandpa from grandad, to address mother's parent and father's repsectively? Or was it just my imagination?

--Chan Tai Man 09:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Tamil people do distinguish them. For example, ammaachchi/ammaththaa (a conflation of ammaa (mother) and aachchi (grandma)) and appaayee/appaththaa (a conflation of appaa (father) and aayee (grandma)). There are variants in the different dialects of different regions. But, this distinction is fading away in urban dialects and people are settling for a common paatti. Interestingly, such distinctions don't exist for grandpas, at least as far as I'm aware of. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Your question is not completely clear to me, but yes, there are kinship terminologies which distinguish mother's father from father's father, and also mother's mother from father's mather. In a unilineal non-moiety system, only one of your four grandparents will generally belong to the same kinship group that you do... AnonMoos 09:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a real article on comparative kinship terminologies... AnonMoos 09:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me. I did make it clear that I was asking from a language usage perspective. Okay, let me rephrase my question. In English speaking cultures, especially Yorkshire in England. When someone says granny, who does s/he refer to? What about grandma, grandpa and grandad? --Chan Tai Man 09:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well in my family (originally from Birmingham) we make a distinction, but I think it's a convenience thing rather than a tradition. Since my parents were the first from both their sets of siblings to have children, they basically got to choose both sets of grandparent names. I'd say it isn't tradition in this case because, certainly on my mother's side, the names we call her parents are not the same as the names she called her grandparents. Everyone I know has some method of distinguishing which grandparents they are talking about, but often they take the route of adding actual names to the 'titles', rather than the route we take, which is more like what you are talking about. I've never noticed a pattern of names linked to maternal/paternal sides, and I can imagine such a thing being confusing if the grandparents had a mixture of sons and daughters, but then I don't know that many yorkshiremen/women. Skittle 10:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of this sort of distinction made on an individual (family-by-family) basis, but I haven't heard of such a distinction being systematically made in any English-speaking community. In my own family we called our grandparents on both sides "Grandma" and "Grandpa", and if disambiguation was necessary we added the last name ("Grandma Smith" vs. "Grandma Jones"). Angr (talk) 10:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your clear explanation. You suggested that "names linked to maternal/paternal sides ... confusing if the grandparents had a mixture of sons and daughters". I think you're right. Nevertheless, in other cultures where father's parents and mother's are clearly distinguished, it wouldn't be a problem at all. Tamil was suggested earlier. As a Chinese man, we -- at least for old fashion people like me -- would hardly mention the name of our parents or parents-in-law in our whole life written or spoken, unless for filling a form or something similar. Among my siblings, my sisters have kids much eariler than I do. Thus, my parents are usually refered as mother's father and mother's mother. I sometimes called them the same (as pet names) as it I were a grandson. Since I have my own kids, I changed to call them father's father and father's mother instead when I wasn't addressing them properly father and mother. Sometimes, I do slip my tougue and call them otherwise. As for my kids, they always address my parents as father's father and father's mother correctly without fail. I suspect my parents will be upset a little (or maybe just a mild surprise) if were addressed otherwise. My kids always understand mother's father and mother's mother relate to my wife not me. --Chan Tai Man 10:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not as black and white as "mother's mother is called X and father's mother is called Y". There are various names a grandmother might be called in English speaking countries - Grandma, Granny, Nan, Nanna, Nanny, etc. It's quite possible the same grandmother will be called all of these things by different grandchildren. Same for grandfathers (Grandad, Grandpa, Grandpop, Pop, Poppy .....). What each is called comes down to (a) what the grandparent prefers to be known as (b) the parents' wishes and (c) that fact that it's confusing for a small child to call both grandmothers the same thing, so usually if one is "Grandma", the other gets a different name for the children of those parents. JackofOz 10:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)