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March 26

Tweleve Visions Party

I was Informed that The Tweleve Visions Party had a page on Wikipedia, I could notfind the page. I had heard this is a new insite on how Americans can Live. If the page has been removed please restore it. I'm sure all Americans would like to evaluate and consider any options available to them...Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valuabel1 (talk • contribs) 00:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

There was a deletion discussion on the Twelve Visions Party. See Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Twelve_Visions_Party. You might want to request deletion review, but first read the deletion discussion, and consider how Wikipedia's notability guidelines apply. (While I did !vote for deletion, I can see that an argument can be made, as the closer did, that the consensus was DELETE, but I can also see that an argument can be made that there was no consensus.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

urgent help please

Hello Sir or Madam

I am searching for my friend who come from India to Finish Mba last year .Her name is Oindrila .I got her message before one and half months before that she has some health problem . Please I need her information . If you can can help me , I will be grateful to you . If you know anything about her pleasde inform me On my Email addres Again I inform you , Her name is Oindrila from India. She come to Atlanta to study at Emroy University in Mba last year . Need her infromation .Please I am her online friend . I look forward to hearing from you soon

Thank you very much

Kittu — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.55.115.203 (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 6.8 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

YouTube citation help

How does one cite a specific YouTube video? WP:RS isn't a problem, because it's a major media source, and WP:COPYLINK isn't a problem, because the network itself uploaded it. I just don't know if we have any YouTube-specific citation tools, or if I should just hand-write the citation. Nyttend (talk) 02:50, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

How about {{Cite AV media}}?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:54, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Flags of the world

Hi, relatively new user Norasisl (talk · contribs) apparently intends to share the "Flags of the World" with WikipediA, existing SVGs not withstanding, and sometimes using not exactly obvious names, e.g., File:Flag with motto (ribbon) inside.png instead of File:Flag of Brazil.svg, or File:Flag with soyombo hoist.png instead of File:Flag of Mongolia.svg. Beats me, I added {{vector version available}} everywhere, looked on the messy talk page, speed read the speedy deletion policy, and arrived at the conclusion that this requires an expert with tact (= not me). –Be..anyone (talk) 04:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

They were previously uploading these files on Commons, and I have been nominating them for deletion as they come. That is probably why they are being uploaded here instead now. Fry1989 ^eh? 18:22, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

On commons an editor suggested to overrule {{copy to commons}} with {{Do not move to Commons}}. I'm not sure about that idea, the "don't"-template is about fair use, not about "bogus raster image with better SVG already available". If the images are copied to commons, folks there have to wait until they are deleted here, and then they can also delete them there. WikiMedia won't get any KISS for this procedure. :-) –Be..anyone (talk) 07:14, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Editing the page on Panax Quinquifolia

I just joined Wikipedia because I was appalled at the misinformation and ignorance of the article on Panax Quinquifolia. The authors of the article go out of their way to tell us it is not "good for the common cold" without bothering to mention that it was never used to treat the "common cold" whatever that might technically be, by the Chinese who have done extensive resarch on this herb and have used it for centuries. I attempted to interject some intelligence into the article by touching the "pencil" icon but nothing happened. How do I edit the nonsense out and provide some credible insight into this wonderful and amazing herb? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr Dennis Kinnane (talk • contribs) 07:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added a welcome message to your talk page that may help answer some of your questions as well as provide links to some helpful pages here at Wikipedia. I couldn't find an article by the name you gave but did find Panax quinquefolius.

To more directly answer your question, the article Panax quinquefolius can be edited by clicking on the "Edit" link at the top right of the article. Please provide reliable sources for your information. In order to help you with the references, references for beginners might be of help for our referencing style. Please be aware that your own personal knowledge cannot be used as a source for information. It must come from reliable published sources.

I see that the claim that you have a problem with is already referenced. Before removing that information, since it is referenced, it might be best to discuss the info on the talk page for the article which can be found at Talk:Panax quinquefolius. Other editors can then join in the conversation about whether or not that information should remain. Dismas|^(talk) 09:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Alex Masucci

Hi I wrote a whole piece on Alex Masucci well researched, pressed save and it said it would appear in 3 weeks is what I remember as I have more information to add to this bio of Alex Masucci.

Where did it disappear too? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.70.135.132 (talk) 08:25, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Is it this? --Mdann52talk to me! 08:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

What is Wikipedia's policy in regard to news embargos?

Someone broke a news embargo on a discovery concerning asteroid 10199 Chariklo; someone posted information concerning the discovery in the Wikipedia entry, sourcing it to the Google cache of the since-taken-down article that broke the embargo, then someone else removed it with the edit note "Removed news that is still under embargo". I was going to revert the removal, but on a quick google I couldn't find any information concerning what Wikipedia's policy was concerning embargoed news. Might be good to know for if this comes up again in the future, and perhaps someone more sure about the matter than I would care to revert the edit. Doesn't seem to me that Wikipedia is necessarily under any obligation to honor an embargo once the info has been leaked, but again, I couldn't find any confirmation one way or another. —Robotech_Master (talk) 10:51, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know what the policy is, if any, but that article has been in place since 2006, with multiple reliable sources, and those sources are presumably the criterion. What exactly is being embargoed?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 11:26, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Did you, um, check the page's edit history? Where the edit I mentioned can be found? —Robotech_Master (talk) 11:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any policy or guidelines on news embargoes. Suppose it should be considered on a case by case basis - articles are based on reliably published information and with an embargo in place it could be difficult to source embargoed information - I doubt Wikipedia is obliged to adhere to embargoes themselves though, besides common courtesy, which we are also not technically bound by. It could be argued that wral.com already broke the embargo in this case - no matter how quickly they withdrew the article. Unless there is a policy and I'm missing it, perhaps it warrens further discussion. WP:PUMP may be a good place for that. Яehevkor ✉ 11:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

We are not journalists and we are not bound by any journalistic code to abide by our source's preferred timing. and in any case our source (WRAL) did not make any request for delayed timing.

our concern is WP:V and WP:RS.

we generally consider major TV stations a reliable source. we generally consider third party archived web pages as proof of verification. therefore, unless WRAL has officially retracted the story on the basis of factual incorrectness (rather than simple journalistic courtesy they are extending to their source regarding timing), there is not really any issue about us covering it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:45, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Reporting Fake (History) Page(s)

I have come across a wiki page that was filled with historical inaccuracies and that was made primarily by a community/caste to help uplift their social status by the looks of it. The references provided on the page do not come from valid sources, I have raised the same issue on March 20, 2014 and I was suggested to go to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution by Rwessel and also seek help from Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics by The Red Pen Of Doom. I was also suggested to put up the page(s) in question here, while I was researching on the same page; I found out that the same people of that community/caste were modifying other History pages and littering Wikipedia with other invalid information from irrelevant and questionable sources. Other wiki users have attempted to talk on their page (Reddy Dynasty), but they do not listen or act upon a consensus. Here are the links that are currently under watch by them -

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddy_dynasty
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasireddy_Clan (A static external website is being used as a source for this link)
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Chalukyas (Just the term "Vasireddy Nayaks", which I edited & removed it today)
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deva_Raya_II#The_Empire
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakatiya_dynasty#Demise_of_the_dynasty
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Andhra_Pradesh#Reddy_Dynasty

Ajan (talk) 12:21, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

A search on google about "Reddi Dynasty" does not bring any reliable source to highlight the subject's importannce. The articles contain a number of words like 'golden age' and 'evil' which can be removed by you yourself. About 'fake', you may remove information if you don't find relevant reliable sources, or propose article deletion. Also can you be specific regarding which editor(s) are having a dispute/not agreeing to consensus? And be Bold! -- Fauzan^{✆ talk} _{✉ email} 12:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

And remember that Wikipedia is maintained by volunteers and so changes and corrections will probably not be immediate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

By the way, the original poster has tagged the first two listed articles for proposed deletion. I removed the PROD tag from the first article because I consider its deletion controversial; I think that a full deletion discussion is in order since some of the sources appear to be reliable, or at least to have reliable publishers. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:10, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Lewis David Eigen

Dear editors: It seems logical that there should be some book reviews or news reports around for this person; I'd like to report this old Afc draft at a Wikiproject, but I can't figure out which one. I am willing to give the submission a serious pruning if some reliable sources can be found. —Anne Delong (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

psychology would probably be a good one - he is follower of BF Skinner.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I did that; thanks. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Marc Christian-Riebe

Hi,

I represent Marc Christian-Riebe as an employee of Location Group UK

We are currently trying to set up a wikipedia page for him but have come across problems with copyrighting. The text I am trying to upload onto wikipedia obviously contains some of the text from the Location Group's website and Marc's linkedin account as it is a biography about him which is also on these sites.

There is also an incomplete wikipedia page about him already set up, which he would like deleted and the new one set up in place of.

The link to this page is User:Famepeople8001

Please let us know how we can address these issues.

Many thanks Ellie Ulrich Location Group UK — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.83.37.114 (talk) 15:37, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you need to read Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest information very quickly. in short it says "Do not edit Wikipedia in your own interests or in the interests of your external relationships." - X201 (talk) 15:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Removing an article

Hi

I have found an incomplete article about myself.

How can I have this removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ellieulrich11 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Ellieulrich11. When articles are incomplete, we don't remove them, we add to them. It's not a good idea to edit a page about yourself, because of conflict of interest. However, each article has a talk page. You can suggest information that you think should be added to the article there. Be sure to point out a reliable independent source for the information, such as a news report, magazine article or book. —Anne Delong (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

[This appears to be the same editor as asked the previous question] If you are referring to the Marc Christian-Riebe article that you created in your user space, you can add {{db-user}} at the top of the article. If it's some other article, please tell us which one and we may be able to find a reason to delete it.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Giorgio Tavecchio

I have created the page Giorgio Tavecchio. He is a NFL player and the page doesnt look right. This is the link for the page.Giorgio Tavecchio Can somebody fix the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PacoDaKing14Sportz (talk • contribs) 16:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed with this edit. The problem was a missing bracket in the high school link. Anon126 (talk - contribs) 16:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I've now removed that link because the article on the school does not exist at this point, and links should be as intuitive as possible. (The link before read "Italy", which in most cases should actually point to the article on Italy.) Anon126 (talk - contribs) 16:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

External links not in English

Dear editors: An editor has added two external links to the Banjo article. One of them is a link to (I think) a site which explains how to play the banjo. This is not a bad idea, except that the links are not in English. Is there a policy about this? I know that reliable sources don't have to be in English, because they are needed for verification and notability. External links, however, are more in the nature of additional information. Is it appropriate for external links of a general nature to be in languages other than English? —Anne Delong (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Don't know why my previous reply way removed. But, external links should be in English, but there are a few exceptions. See WP:EL for the guidelines. RudolfRed (talk) 17:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:NONENGEL says "Outside of citations, external links to English-language content are strongly preferred in the English-language Wikipedia. It may be appropriate to have a link to a non-English-language site, such as when an official site is unavailable in English; or when the link is to the subject's text in its original language; or when the site contains visual aids such as maps, diagrams, or tables—per the guideline on non-English-language sites." I don't really see how instructions on 'how to play the banjo' fit in with 'appropriateness' as outlined here - and one of the links [1] seems to be to a website promoting banjo lessons in France. If such links are included, then again according to WP:NONENGEL they should be clearly labelled as in the relevant language. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. With appropriate policy link in hand, I have removed the links. —Anne Delong (talk) 18:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

and in general, an external link that is not the official link for the subject should only be included if it provides unique, encyclopedic value. there are dozens of sites that are easily found on google with equally appropriate "how to" content- there is no need for such a link from the Wikipedia article even if it were in English. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree. If I did want to add an external link to this sort of material, I would look for a summary page where someone has already made a list of such sites, rather than selecting one site over others. However, I found out from this discussion what I wanted to know, which was where to find policy about links in other languages, so thanks, everyone. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:47, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Problem with Image layout on page

Trackteur aligned most images from operations management to the right of the page, claiming he was having problems reading text. The problem now is that the images were "companions" of specific paragraphs, and some of them are now way down from the paragraphs they were related to. Can anyone help solving this issue?. I've thought of adding more text, for example: on the history section Walter Shewhart paragraph is indeed very small, so perhaps by adding more text, pictures will be better arranged on the page. Images could also be made smaller, with the risk thought that if an image is too small, content will be hard to see.Lbertolotti (talk) 17:29, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

The simple answer is to remove the six portraits of people, as they add nothing whatsoever to the readers understanding of operations management. If you take out these six photos, you will be able to move the relevant diagrams into more suitable locations. Please also remember that however you arrange the page, other people will see different layouts - look at the page on a tablet, or phone, or change the width, or pixilation, of your PC screen. - Arjayay (talk) 17:53, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Good advice. On a more general level, {{multiple image}} can be used to group images together.--ukexpat (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

logo on upper left of page is too big

this same logo(135 x 79 pixils) is used on an older version of Mediawiki and displays correctly, but on latest Mediawiki it seems too large. Is there a way to adjust it?

thanks

Jim — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.22.57.48 (talk) 18:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi, there's no 135×79 logo on MediaWiki, and the 180×170 File:MediaWiki-smaller-logo.png should be scaled as the infobox, the (registered) user settings, their browser, and MediaWiki determine, with reasonable defaults for unregistered users. Are you talking about MediaWiki? Otherwise please add the [[article name]] in square brackets for a wikilink here. Please sign your comment with four tildes ~~~~ at the end, it could help to figure out what you mean. –Be..anyone (talk) 18:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

IIRC, this is the size for the logo in the skin that Wikia uses... and it will look too big in Wikia's Monobook, which needs a square-ish logo. Not that this question is necessarily about Wikia... but I thought it prudent to mention. - Purplewowies (talk) 19:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

The monobook "Powered by MediaWiki" logos on some wikias (tested: dev + freeciv, no logo: community) are 88×31 pixels as always. Wikia is still on the old "Long Time Support" MediaWiki version 1.19. Most registered users and all visitors there have the default oasis skin, not monobook. It would be fun if a Wikia Monobook question somehow ends up here. :-) –Be..anyone (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I just felt like mentioning it because the "upper left" logo is usually the site logo... and I noticed the wiki I admin at over there had a logo/wordmark in Oasis that was approximately this size (maybe?) but no logo in Monobook, and the Oasis logo needed to be resized to properly fit within Monobook. I do know few people use Monobook there (even I only switch to it when Oasis is causing problems...) and it's not what visitors get... it just somehow felt important to mention (also may have had Wikia on the brain)? I recognize the image size at the very least, but I'm actually not totally sure from whence it came. Would be funny if it was a Wikia Monobook question, though! - Purplewowies (talk) 23:51, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Is accidentally copying an article over into another enough for REVDEL?

A user copied and pasted an entirety of one article, Sun Wei into Sunwei, probably by accident, and I'm thinking about copyright scenarios. I subsequently notified the user of the mistake, and did a dummy edit saying the contribution history can be found on Sun Wei. (can provide diffs)

Would revision deletion clear this matter up, so if the article gets voted to be deleted, it can be deleted without worry? Or no? Meteor sandwich yum (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Probably not. The circumstances in which revdel is appropriate are limited: WP:CRD.--ukexpat (talk) 21:24, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Aww. Oh well. I probably could beg for it to be listed under CRD#6, but Sun Wei Sunwei is being considered for deletion anyway. Should ease the matter. Meteor sandwich yum (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

wikilinking from talk to main page of an article

Is there a shortcut to reference a section of an article from its talk page or do I need to spell out the full article name and then pipe it? For example, Wikipedia:Help desk#Daily section headers is the full link to a section of the talk page to this article Is there a shortcut I could use to link to the "Daily section headers" section? I know I can use pipes to make a link appear shorter. What I'm seeking is something like [[#wikilinking from talk to main page of an article]] which produces #wikilinking from talk to main page of an article and will link to a section on the same page but I want to jump from talk to mainspace of an article.

I've looked at Help:Link, Help:Pipe trick, Meta:Help:Link but did not spot anything that seems like it'll work. --Marc Kupper|talk 22:28, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

AFAIK there's no solution with nothing before the hash, but the magic word {{SUBJECTPAGENAME}} would work. You would use it like [[{{SUBJECTPAGENAME}}#Section]], but it would probably be easier to just type the full article name. ~HueSatLum 22:54, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

It might be easier to use keyboard shortcuts to pop up to the top of the page, copy the title, and paste it into whatever you're working on. I know that on a Mac using Safari you can use Command+UpArrow to get immediately to the top of a page and then Command+DownArrow to get to the bottom. Though, if you're editing a section of the talk page, you land at the top of the talk page when you click 'Edit' anyway. Dismas|^(talk) 11:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Active tennis chair umpires umpires

Missing plenty of names working for many years at top level and naming some I have never heard of (been in business for more than 25years! Bob Strachan, Australia? Who is that? Leanne White is still an active official, as well as Fiona Edwards. Tamara Vrhovec (Croatia) ,missing, gabriela zaloga (poland) too. Written by someone who doesn't follow tennis chair umpires — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.164.248.202 (talk) 22:43, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I believe this question is referring to List of tennis umpires. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

JUST HELP ME UPDATE MY PAGE

Hey, Wiki-smart guys.. I can't do this on my own.. there are a bunch of updates that need to go on my page - I submitted them, but I don't understand the rule and ways to execute the changes.. can someone go through my new additions and make the changes.. please.. this is the real Rick Shapiro.. please.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Therealrickshapiro (talk • contribs) 22:45, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

We update articles based upon what is supported by reliably published sources, preferably third party sources not related to the subject. So we are not going to update just because you asked. Some folks will be by to take a look at your suggestions. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

and no, that content is not going into the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:58, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

and if you are in fact actually Rick Shapiro, you have a conflict of interest and you need to stop attempting to edit the article directly and instead make suggestions on the talk page, supporting your suggestions by providing reliably published sources that support the claims and allow third parties to assess the content for its sourcing and appropriateness. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

If there are any administrators watching, based on what the user has attempted to enter on the article page, please consider whether a block is appropriate until a validation of the actual owner can be confirmed. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:10, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

He can't be Rick Shapiro...because I'm Rick Shapiro! Seriously though, I'm not Rick Shapiro and this guy might be. I don't even know who that is, but want to learn more now. The encyclopedia works. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:29, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Turns out I did know him. His GTA character has some interesting views on health insurance. Anyway, if he's "spoken openly" about some of this stuff, where? That could be a source. InedibleHulk (talk) 15:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

March 27

Too many items on my Watchlist

Dear editors: I do a lot of work at Afc, and so the pages that I edit keep moving around, from userspace to Wikipedia talk: to Draft: and sometimes to more than one title in mainspace. Then there are the associated talk pages for each one and the submitters' user pages as well. I want to watch these pages for a while, but then I would like to delete them from my watchlist, especially ones that no longer have content. I use the "View and edit watchlist" feature, but it is time consuming. Is there any kind of utility that will:

(1) remove watchlist items which are redirects, or talk pages of redirects, or at least identify them for easy removal?

(2) remove watchlist items where neither the page or the talk page exist, or at least identify them for easy removal?

(3) allow sorting of the watchlist items within namespace sections by date of addition to the list instead of alphabetically, to allow easy removal of stale items and new but unneeded ones?

(4) allow items that I want to watch permanently to be marked and then separated, preferably into their own section, or at least by colour or style, so that I don't have to look through these when choosing items to delete? —Anne Delong (talk) 01:08, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

If you add

importStylesheet('User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css'); // Linkback: User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css

to User:Anne Delong/common.js it will change links to different colors based on what the link is, redirect, dab page, so one. Then it is easy to pick out the redirects which show up as green links rather than blue. GB fan 01:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I presume that this would change the appearance everywhere, rather than just in the watchlist editor. Would I still be able to distinguish visited from unvisited links? I am already using custom colours because my eyes couldn't see the dark blue from the black of the default colours; would I need to remove that, or would whichever one was last on the list override? If so, maybe I could just add the link classifier when I intended to do some watchlist pruning and then remove it when done. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

It does change links everywhere. I don't know how it would work with your custom color. You might try asking Anomie. I don't have any problems with colors so it doesn't cause me any problems. GB fan 01:43, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Note you also need User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js to get all the colors. As for customizing the colors, it's simply a matter of copying User:Anomie/linkclassifier.css to your common.css (instead of using the "importStylesheet" line) and adjusting the colors however you'd like. (not watching this page, please {{ping}} me on replies) Anomie⚔ 12:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

its more work to set it up than a simple click to "watch", but you could create a user page add the links to the pages there and monitor them by "related changes". if you organize them in a way that makes sense to you, you can clean them out easily on a regular basis. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That sounds like there would be more work adding the pages than I'd be saving on the removal; However, thanks, I hadn't thought of that and maybe I can use it to monitor THIS PAGE. —Anne Delong (talk) 01:45, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

As someone who is struggling with the challenge of maintaining my watchlist, I wish there were an option to watchlist something for a fixed period of time say 30 days or six months. That feature sounds like it would meet Anne's needs as well.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:44, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I've got a better idea. Clicking the star to watchlist a page would watchlist it for n days (user preference, which can be indefinite). When n days expire, you get a notice (one notice covering all times in a period, such as a week), and you can re-up for n more days, change it to indefinite, or ignore, which drops it from your list.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Okay, it seems that this is something that many are interested in, but can't be solved by the Help Desk. Here's a link to the IdeaLab discussion I started: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/New_and_better_ways_to_edit_Watchlists It's at Meta-Wiki. You may also be interested in the other ideas that are being developed there. Some of them may eventually become proposals for Individual Engagement Grants. —Anne Delong (talk) 23:06, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

qual e-mail compartir musica do youtube p myspace

como compartir video do youtube para myspace — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.78.51.107 (talk) 03:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

You are at Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia, and this page is for asking questions about using or editing the encyclopedia. But a Google search finds this video which I think answers your question.

(Google translation into Portuguese) Você está em: Wikipédia, a enciclopédia on-line, e esta página é para fazer perguntas sobre o uso ou a edição da enciclopédia. Mas uma pesquisa no Google encontra este vídeo que eu acho que responde a sua pergunta. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

How to quickly link a term in a number of articles?

I've created an article about Historical Monument (Poland), a type of Polish heritage register. I see the term pomnik historii (now a redirect) is used, but unlinked, in 20+ articles. I don't feel like linking them manually, but I wonder if there's a gadget or another tool I could quickly use to do it in a semi-bot way? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

@Piotrus: I dived in with AWB, but noticed that in each case there was a nearby link to Objects of cultural heritage in Poland, eg in the Gdańsk article. Do you really want a second link so close by?

But to answer the general question: I don't know of any gadget to do this. Tasks like this are fairly easy with AWB, and a post at Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks usually finds a willing helper. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, User:John of Reading. If the article uses the term pomnik historii, it should link to Historical Monument (Poland). The Objects of cultural heritage in Poland (zabytek) is an upper level concept. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I've added the link to 32 articles. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The reason there probably isn't a bot to do it is partially to do with the above conversation, i.e. there are too many decisions to be made about whether or not a link should be used and where. Dismas|^(talk) 11:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

translations

IS THERE A GERMAN-ENGLISH TRANSLATION FACILITY ON WIKIPEDIA? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.144.96.147 (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia:Translation help?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Post & Telegraph

I want to see the sample of INDIRA VIKAS PATRA issued during the year 2002. And want to know when the postal department change the stamping from BOMBAY to MUMBAI. --203.115.120.238 (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)Rekha--203.115.120.238 (talk) 11:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

When i download song from dj punjab site then no processing is shown as notification.nothing is downloaded plz help me

I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 6.8 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Knights of Saint Columba

Hi,

The Order of the Knights of St Columba wish to have complete control over the pgae Knights of Sr Columba. Although this is a direct copy of an original page, the imagery was incorrect on the original page and some of the content needed to be changed.

The original page was a redirect from Knights of Columbus. Please can you keep these links.

We must have the ability to change this page on occasion to make necessary updates.

If you have any queries please contact Mr Joe Rodriguez, Supreme Director for Communications and Media our email address who acts on behalf of the Order for all matters such as this. He will clarify that the new page should be the only page for the Order and will confirm the rights for it to be changed.

Thank you

KSCwebmaster (talk) 11:56, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

UnFortunately that is not how Wikipedia works, no one owns pages and no one group or individual can mandate edits to an article. If fact you are discouraged from editing the article at all per our conflict of interest guidelines. You may suggest edits or alterations on the talk page, or, with care, make neutral edits supported by reliable third party sources independent from the subject. Яehevkor ✉ 12:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I dont think it's "unfortunate". I think it is a good thing. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:52, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Yeah.. bad choice of words there. :P Яehevkor ✉ 15:19, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Sambhali Trust, indian NGO working for women empowerment

Hello everyone,

I would like to suggest you to set up an article, on wikipedia, on Sambhali Trust. This is an NGO working since more than 7 years on women empowerment in Rajasthan (India).

I could do it myself, but I work for it, so I think it maybe will be more neutral if someone else can do it.

Our website, if you want to start, is www.sambhali-trust.org

They are already some articles on internet.

If you need any more information, please send me an email to (Redacted)

Thank you to the person who could take some time to do it!

Warm regards,

Geoffrey— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sambhali-India (talk • contribs)

The place to request an article is WP:RA. It will make it more likely that your request is acted upon if you can show that the subject actually meets the requirements for having a stand alone article, that third party reliably published sources have found the subject worthy of coverage of a significant nature, by providing links to the reliable sources making the coverage. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:33, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Request edit

I was reviewing the information about United States Parole Boards. Each individual state is listed, when I clicked on the West Virginia Parole Board, it stated page does not exist. Our website is www.paroleboard.wv.gov

thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.71.204.146 (talk • contribs) 13:17, 27 March 2014‎ (UTC)

Thanks, I have fixed the link.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:39, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

writing wrong

hi i wanted to ask we can edit our prejudice or intuitive without experiecnce fact or education what effect goes on editing wrong information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.79.165.4 (talk • contribs) 13:47, 27 March 2014‎ (UTC)

Personal observations and commentary are not allowed, see WP:OR. Wikipedia is not a platform for advocacy. see WP:RGW and WP:NOT. Content in Wikipedia articles must be based upon what reliably published sources have said, representing the mainstream academic viewpoints of the subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:50, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Reference list template

How do I add a {{reflist}} template?

I have added citations to Gordon Kurtti however I get the error message: Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist}} template (see the help page).

I appreciate any help.

Thank You. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackeyed One (talk • contribs) 14:10, 27 March 2014‎ (UTC)

In the error message, the words "help page" are in blue, indicating that they are a wikilink to a page with specific help for your problem. --David Biddulph (talk) 14:42, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

the automatic citation formatting has 2 parts the tags in the body of the article where the details about the source are given (which you had done) and a second part is a template at the bottom that will display the citation information identified in the body. That part you hadn't done and so the wikimarkup reader said "Hey I have things to display but no one told me where to display them!" I added the display template with this edit: [2].

for more details see WP:REFB-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Favorite Wikipedia articles

Hello everyone. Not sure if this is the right place to post my query as most of the above are more advanced and technical. Is there a way to create a list of "favorite" Wikipedia articles inside a user page? This is different from a watch-list. The list I am referring to might be on subjects a user is interested in (and would like to access easily), but not necessarily subjects he/she would edit. Thank you in advance for you help Mark.int (talk) 16:56, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you can either include wikilinks on your user page, or create one or more user subpages, perhaps named something like User:Mark.int/Favorites, and include wikilinks there. --David Biddulph (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

You might also try Wikipedia:Books if that strikes your fancy. - Purplewowies (talk) 22:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thinkers pictures on main subjects page

Can someone explain to me if there is an official guideline for introducing thinkers pictures in their subjects pages? Mathematics shows 5 mathematicians, Physics display 3 physicists in its page, Chemistry displays Lavoisier and Democritus, Biology show no biologist at all, Economics shows 3 economists, Sociology show 12 sociologists, Anthropology shows zero anthropologists, Management shows zero managers, Geography has Humbolt and Mercator, Engineering has Leonardo da Vinci, History shows Benedetto Croce and Philosophy has a huge history section with 16 philosophers.Lbertolotti (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The guidelines are Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Images#Choosing_images. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Please note the phrase in that guideline "Images are primarily meant to inform readers by providing visual information" - Portraits provide extremely little, if any, information whatsoever, and frequently detract from the subject - especially when they displace, or dilute, directly relevant photographs, diagrams etc. - Arjayay (talk) 19:32, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Still doesn't explain to me why there is such a lack of uniformity across articles, and also why thinkers pictures were removed from operations management article on the claim that " re-addition of portraits of people, as they add nothing whatsoever to the readers understanding of operations management - as already explained at Help Desk", so I'm guessing that by the same line of reasoning a picture of Einstein would be irrelevant to the Physics article, a picture of Adam Smith would be irrelevant to the Economics article?Lbertolotti (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The lack of uniformity is easily explained by the fact that there is no central editing authorization. Every article evolves over time based on the local editors reaching a point(s) of consensus. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:04, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes but on this particular point, who was the "onus of proof": people who want to remove images or people who want images to stay?Lbertolotti (talk) 20:13, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

If the inclusion of the pictures has been challenged as not needed, the editor trying to add the pictures need to show that the images are "relevant to the article that they appear in and [be] significantly and directly related to the article's topic." per this section WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images. Meters (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You would certainly be within your rights to assert "Images must be relevant to the article that they appear in and be significantly and directly related to the article's topic." And these don't and BOLDLY remove under WP:BRD. If you are reverted, discuss. If you cannot come to a consensus with the person who wants to include lots of pics, follow one of the dispute resolution methods such as an RfC. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Help needed reverting edit

Resolved

 – 20:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The high-traffic article: Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 needs immediate attention. This edit needs to be reverted, but due to edit conflict this can not be done easily. In addition to unexplained removal of sourced content by an IP editor, this edit broke the table. Usually errors are quickly corrected on this high-traffic article, but for some reason this error has persisted awhile. Help!  —71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed it, I think. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:55, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks!   For some reason my attempts only made things worse.  ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect information

Stockport County list of all players. Listed is James Tunnicliffe. It says he has a football brother called Jordan. This is incorrect. He only has a one brother Kristian who is 2 years younger. I know this information to be correct as I am his Grandma.

I believe that you are referring to the content James_Tunnicliffe#Early_life. We go by what the reliable sources say. The source [3] says that it is brother Jordan. Whether or not pitchero.com is a reliably published source is not something that I have knowledge of. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:13, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

help with citogenesis

Hi, we've uncovered a wonderful example of citogenesis over at Talk:Separatist_feminism#bell_hooks_fake_quote, where an invented phrase by one editor c2006 was later attributed (c2007) to a famous author as paraphrase, and then this paraphrase was turned into a quote in a reliable source (published book) (c2010) (citing wikipedia, bien sur), and then the bullshit was finally detected here and removed in c2013. No-one has written about this yet, so we can't put it in Circular reporting, but I'm wondering if there is a wiki-space article where we can catalog such instances.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

MSDS for chemicals

Can you help explain how to correct infoboxes and add MSDS (material safety data sheets) to chemicals? I don't get it, because the " | (whatever line of the box here) (info here)" code does not display in the infobox when you put it in there as an added line.

So do you get the data from a trusted source, like for butylone,

http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/MSDS/MSDS/DisplayMSDSPage.do?country=US&language=en&productNumber=P-086&brand=CERILLIAN&PageToGoToURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sigmaaldrich.com%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcerillian%2Fp086%3Flang%3Den

and then create a custom data page like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol_(data_page)#Material_Safety_Data_Sheet

using the sigma aldrich msds as the source? What is the correct way to add that to the infobox if this is the correct procedure? Wgfcrafty (talk) 22:13, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Wgfcrafty. I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but I think the problem is that you are trying to use a parameter which is not defined in the template. Assuming you are talking about {{Chembox}}, you need to look at the template documentation to see which parameters are defined: there seems to be a parameter called "ExternalMSDS", which takes a URL as its value. Does this answer your question? --ColinFine (talk) 23:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

That is exactly what I was wondering, thanks!Wgfcrafty (talk) 05:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Saving edits in draft form

How can I save my edits in draft form? I don't want the page to go live with the new edits, but I want to save them and add to them tomorrow. Thank youMadunmire (talk) 23:06, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Madunmire! You can save a userspace draft at a place like User:Madunmire/PAGENAME or User:Madunmire/sandbox or you could make a draft in the Draft namespace. I've included links that discuss these possibilities to help you. - Purplewowies (talk) 23:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hello, Madunmire. There is no way to save anything in Wikipedia and not have it visible to anybody. However, if you work in your sandbox (or a user subpage, which is effectively a named sandbox) the convention is that nobody else will edit it unless it contains a gross problem such as a copyright violation or a personal attack. I have never used a subpage in this way for working on an existing article, (so somebody else may jump in with better advice), but I would think that you can:

• copy the section you want to edit to your sandbox or a user subpage
• edit it as you wish
• when you are satisfied with it, you must check whether anybody else has edited the original article since you took your copy, and if so make sure that you don't just discard their edits. If appropriate, you'll need to apply their edits to your sandbox copy.
• then copy the section back to the original article.

Of course, you might decide that your edits supersede those made by other people in the interim; but if you do so, you should mention this in your edit summary, so that it is clear that it was intentional.

It is possible that you could add the {{under construction}} template to the original article to warn people you are working on it, but that template does not quite seem to fit your need, so if you did I would suggest using its "comment" parameter to explain what you are doing.

I hope this helps. --ColinFine (talk) 23:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there is a draft save function. I would guess the only way is to save it on your computer, or enter the edit and then revert it, and then if you want to you can put it back the next day, or merge your edit with some one elses if it's been changed before you want your edit to take place. But really, I don't see why you wouldn't just save it on your computer.Wgfcrafty (talk) 05:13, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

If the edits are a new article you creating you could do it either in your sandbox or in the Draft-space. In your sandbox no other editor will change it, unless you invite them or it violates one of the "more serious" rules such as copyright violation or the BLP rules. If you do it in Draft-space other editors are free to edit it the same as in mainspace. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 07:40, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

March 28

COLON CANCER: I need to clarify which treatment should be applied first and foremost before going straight into to establish if there is a problem.

--99.107.154.2 (talk) 04:36, 28 March 2014 (UTC)Florida. I need to know which would be preferable in investigating is present before the use of Colonoscopy to establish if there is a problem.

Please consult a health care professional. This help desk is for assistance in editing or using Wikipedia. Although there are articles on colon cancer and colonoscopy that may be helpful, Wikipedia cannot or will not provide medical advice. We may however, wish you the best.  71.20.250.51 (talk) 04:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Tagging for shared IP addresses: did I do this right?

A few days ago I tagged [4][5] User talk:80.39.167.183 and User talk:83.41.211.152 with {{Shared IP}}.

I read the documentation on it, but now I'm worrying if they're not shared. Their IPs were near in range, both traced to Telefonica de Espana, and I noticed they both edited 3 articles (Laurie Halse Anderson, Madrid, and The Brave Little Toaster to the Rescue) on the same day, each.

Can anything bad come of this? Will an admin treat them any differently now that I've tagged them? Should I remove the tag?

...sometimes I just second-guess myself. Meteor sandwich yum (talk) 05:32, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

If it's actually a static IP rented from Telefonica the user(s) can say so on the talk pages. If a user of these IPs infuriates an admin resulting in a block where they can't edit at all, even not the IP talk page, the static IP can't help them in unblock requests. ;-) –Be..anyone (talk) 13:48, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

wrong,wrong,wrong

first techno record - unknown dj and 3 d - beatronic - techno hop - 1984— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.217.162.162 (talk • contribs)

If you found an error you can (1) be bold and fix it, (2) report the issue on the talk page, or (3) report it elsewhere as you did here, but in that case please add the [[article name]] in square brackets to produce a link, nobody here has a clue where you found the problem. –Be..anyone (talk) 06:34, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

A reference would also be appreciated. RJFJR (talk) 13:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Redactedunder RD1?

I received the following message on an article that I am working on but have not yet resubmitted for publication. Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Bob Davis (businessman) Can you please translate the message for me as I do not understand what the issue is.

"It has been requested that certain historical revisions of this page be redacted under criterion RD1 (Blatant copyright violations) by an administrator, because the article history contains significant copyright violations of http://www.hcp.com/bob-davis that have been removed in the meantime. The revisions requested to be deleted are: 592873585 to 596376411 (inclusive)" Alihoward (talk) 14:00, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

In the error message which you quote, the words "criterion RD1" are in blue, indicating that they are a wikilink to a page which explains the problem. As it says, the redaction of the earlier edits would need to be done by an administrator, so you don't need to do anything except ensure that any other contributions to Wikipedia are not copyright violations. - David Biddulph (talk) 14:17, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Invoke a bot?

Resolved

 – 71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:23, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there some way to invoke a bot to fix something?  Specifically, AnomieBOT needs to rescue several orphan refs in Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. I could eventually figure out how to do this manually, but that's what bots are for.  —I am not a bot, I am a number:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Jian Ghomeshi

In the Wiki article on Jian Ghomeshi, I notice that the paragraph under "Literature" is a repetition of the penultimate paragraph of the introduction to the article. Obviously one needs to be deleted, but I don't know which. Could you decide and amend accordingly, please? --P123cat1 (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

actually the lead should be a summary of the main points of the article, so while exact duplication in the body and the lead is probably not appropriate, the fact that content is covered twice is in fact appropriate. WP:LEAD. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

March 29

Norwegian

Hi: Can I find english translations of norwegian words through Wikipedia?

No; we're an encyclopedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:57, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes you can find translations on Wiktionary, or you can occasionaly find articles on the same subject as Norwegian articles at the Norwegian Wikipedia here on the English one. These article links will show up in the sidebar under "languages". But Wikipedia is not a translator, no. - Purplewowies (talk) 02:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Editing Titles

When I click edit on a Wiki page why can't I edit the title of an article? 24.90.159.185 (talk) 02:57, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

See Help:How to move a page. To change the title of an article, you need to move it to a new name. You'd also need an account to do that but it's free, easy, and beneficial to create an account. --Jayron32 02:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

If, however, you mean: "I can click on [edit] next to a section, but there is no [edit] for the top ("title") section, so how can I edit that?" —then the answer is:  Use the '| Edit |' tab on the top-right corner of the page.  —71.20.250.51 (talk) 04:20, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

how would I format a new entry for a film when there is an existing film with the same name?

Hello, I was going to create a page for a new film only to discover that there is an existing film (released in 2005) with the same name. What is the proper way to differentiate the two films? I was considering simply including an infobox tag with "film 2014" to indicate the year of the films release and make a modification to the existing entry to add the release year to its infobox tag. Any other suggestions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.166.121 (talk) 03:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

: Just having different infobox information won't help; the two articles need to have different titles. The agreed convention is at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Between films of the same name. - David Biddulph (talk) 04:12, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Need help in Editing contents and articles related to Thangboi Singto

Hi All, I recently create a new account in Wikipedia. As I have gone through one article related to my uncle Thangboi Singto, who is the Interim Coach for Shillong Lajong Football Club, a major I-League club in India, I found that the articles and biography pertaining to him which is posted in this reputed site is not detail and need updates.

I have a complete and detail articles about him which i can contribute to this site but not sure of how to Edit the page in Wikipedia. As i am new to Wikipedia, i wonder if you could guide me on how to edit the contents and add more articles and biography about my Uncle Thangboi Singto.

Thanks and Regards, Minthang Neihsial — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minthang neihsial (talk • contribs) 05:59, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Welcome! You are welcome to contribute to wikipedia. See here before you start.

Regarding the article on Thangboi Singto, edits must confirm to the the guidelines on biography of living persons and all information must be cited. Since you are related to the subject, you are not directly allowed to edit, but can suggest them on the article's talk page. Feel free to contact me or any other editor for help! -- Fauzan^{✆ talk} _{✉ email} 06:23, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Please can you check the refs. for 2 pages - the "Lupton family" and also "Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood" THanks so much mike