User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

A suggestion for attracting and keeping female editors

Hey Jimbo, have you seen the Wikipedia article on cleavage? The one that the disambiguation page Cleavage decribes as "partial exposure of the separation between a woman's breasts"? No, not Decolletage, that's a different article about the same thing. The one I'm writing about here is Cleavage (breasts). People have been arguing lately about the number of images on that article. Right now there are 19 images to illustrate this very simple concept, but that number changes daily.

How do you think female readers will react when they see the sections called "pathology" and "treatment"? Let's ignore the fact that part of it is a word for word copy from the sources. The article has gone from talking about the social aspects of cleavage (and let's ignore the fact that this is already covered in decolletage) to talking about "cleavage wrinkles" as a condition that needs treatment. It is misplaced, and worse, medicalizes a common and completely normal effect of aging on women. And I won't even mention the absolutely awful Intermammary cleft, which is a totally unecessary content fork (with special added nonsense). Or the ridiculous Cleavage enhancement article which seems to be a how-to guide for transvestite fetishists.

If you want to attract and keep female editors, start cleaning up these awful messes that result from letting pervy creeps turn anatomical articles into their personal image galleries. Get rid of the plastic surgery linkfarms. Take hard line with editors who want to push their own odd views of what women should do with their breasts. In other words, make all of these kind of articles seem like they belong in an encyclopedia instead of a Tumblr site. Perhaps if women see themselves reflected by Wikipedia they might start editing as well as reading. If they see Wikipedia articles like Cleavage (breasts) is now, they will wisely stay far far away. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me that camel toe is just an April Fool's joke gone terribly wrong. Carrite (talk) 00:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy to delete or stubbify such articles, but it probably wouldn't end well if anyone started to do so without general consensus about them. I'd certainly support having some debate about their appropriateness or what is appropriate content for them. Metamagician3000 (talk) 06:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Metamagcian3000, the problem here is that editors are looking for "general consensus" instead of showing editorial oversight. Right now, there's a discussion about a table in the article Cleavage (breasts) featuring images of other types of partial breast exposure including "bottom cleavage". Sorry to pick on that article again, but it serves to make my point. I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. What new female editor wants to subject herself to that? There was a recent discussion about the inclusion of an autotuned audio file in Bhutanese passport that some people considered racist. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. If Wikipedia wants women to participate as editors, then Wikipedia needs to rein in the editors who insist on acting like little boys. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 14:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. People shouldn't be able to argue policy or appropriateness of images if someone removes them. Got'cha. They should just be entirely removed, no images at all--after all, Wikipedia is censored I'm sure. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. You saw a content dispute on Wikipedia, you lost in terms of consensus and all of a sudden, instead of being considered the 'consensus' of editors, it's 'indefinite article protection'. How many articles or content disputes have gone in your favor that you reverse this standard on, I wonder? Also notice that you're linking to a talk page discussion rather than a full blown edit war. That's what talk pages are for--getting consensus on things. The fact that you don't want that to happen is telling. What do you think should happen when an editor reverts another editor's contributions? Just keep reverting? It can't work. Also, I really much ponder your original account, and whether you are the IP posting the same ranty-type vague speals below. Oh and to add, tell me your solution to this problem. Because if you can find something more efficient than talk pages, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure they would too. Tutelary (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Tutelary, for providing an example of the kind of testosterone-fueled attack that would greet any female editor wading into that mess of an article. If you wre a woman, how do you think you would feel when faced with such attacks? Some people are made of plastic (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The kicker is that I am a woman. Tutelary (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Good heavens, stop, just stop. People know how to google "Tutelary Wikipedia". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 00:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the original state of the articles has much to be said for it, but the suggestions above seem to have the wrong focus. The reason why the article might have struck someone as offensive or voyeuristic is simply that it was badly written. For example, a table of "top cleavage, side cleavage, and bottom cleavage" is not merely pretty, but actually encyclopedic. Adding a fourth category of "downblouse", determined not by how the woman dresses but on how she is photographed, not so much. Deleting the table, though, was not the right answer. Nor should mention of "downblouse" photography be entirely omitted, since it is a social factor that is affecting current female fashion, in that women end up thinking about what they're going to end up being presented as on social media. Wnt (talk) 15:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd ordinarily agree with you, Tutelary, but this article is a complete mess, much of it WP:OR and when I last looked at it, it contained an extensive table of different types of bras which was totally misplaced. There is no reason why more than one image is necessary to illustrate what cleavage is. For comparison purposes, do we have 19 photos on Scrotum? No. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, we probably would if men paraded down the fashion runways in pants designed to show off certain parts of them. :) Wnt (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

First step to 'attracting and keeping female editors' is not repelling them. That one is a pretty obvious strategy that could be worked on straight away, with zero need for initiatives, projects and funding, if the community will was there. Given that the will doesn't seem to be there then the question should be: 'How do we deal with those elements of the community who repel women?' That's where the conversation seems to stop or go or in ever unchanging circles. AnonNep (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point, is the community will there? A recent open-source perspective in a O'Reilley talk about women in tech has helpful info for those who do not work in the tech industry for understanding some of the emerging terminology and tools. Also, a recent reflection about speaking up for women in tech. As the poster above points out, attracting and retaining women would happen naturally, without any speeches, jargon, funding or initiatives, if community members overall were actually interested in being hospitable towards women. One can only hope that eventually the conversation won't just "stop or go or in ever unchanging circles" the way it does now. --Djembayz (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

An Atmosphere of Distrust, Spite, Malice, Incompetence and Ideological Censorship Damaging the Reputation of Wikipedia

The toxic atmosphere new editors and unregistered editors must navigate when making good faith edits has been very damaging to the reputation of the project. It has also been very difficult for even experienced editors who in good faith try to improve or add to certain articles that a regular editor demonstrates ownership, often for ideological reasons. They often tendentiously edit the article and immediately revert any edit they deem contrary to their cause. If the new or unregistered editor attempts to reinstate their edit they jump all over the new editor with threatening language about being blocked and often use uncivil behavior to bait the new editor so they can run off to ANI to make misleading claims. When they get to ANI the new and unregistered users face a high level of mistrust (no AGF there) and an awaiting lynch mob who just can't wait to pile on with abusive comments. The unfamiliar editor will face accusations by the article owner that are likely to be presented deceptively.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Perceived Freedom of Expression Rights (Not a repository of porn or sexually provocative images)

There are other issues that keep many from participating in the project. It is especially troubling when it concerns sexually provocative or degrading images unnecessarily kept on user pages despite pretty clear user page guidelines. The usual juvenile sounding crowd shows up decrying Wikipedia is not censored which is possibly an ideal of sorts but far from a realistic statement. There would be no Wikipedia if there was not some standards which in effect become a form of censorship. This same crowd has also been known to hound editors who strive to improve the encyclopedias reputation by asking for enforcement of existing guidelines. Many of those editors have been especially insulting to female editors which is very detrimental to encouraging more women to participate in the project. Many editors have strived to make the encyclopedia more user friendly and safer for children. I would not encourage the use of Wikipedia in K-12 schools at this time due to the foul language, unnecessary depictions of violence against women, sexually provocative images and general low regard civility among experienced editors and many admins. There is nothing gained for an encyclopedia to show actual images of women in bondage as it reflects violence against women. A simple drawing would be much more appropriate. There is a desire by some to have a free for all as they regard editing here as right. That is faulty thinking as it a privilege to edit here that can be rescinded at any time. If the pictures are still kept, I would offer a rating system that warns a viewer when an article contains graphics that are sexually provocative, depicting violence, nudity, etc.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Freedom to Say Anything "Rights" on Wikipedia (NOT A Forum)

There are many editors who enjoy demonstrating that "have a right to say whatever they want." They often use extremely offensive language for shock value and to get under a targeted editors skin. That reckless behavior out in public could result in a ticket for disorderly conduct and possibly a 72 hour psychological hold. It is amazing how tolerated it is in ANI and other community discussion. The juvenile behavior is lacking in any decorum and does little for maintaining some sense of order. It also makes for a toxic atmosphere that contributes to even more outlandish behavior. There is a group of self-identified juvenile acting males who seem to run together in their attacks on other editors. To be fair there have been many insults and biting comments from the feminist side as well but the juvenile behavior of some male editors is much more prevalent. Both sides have been going at it using derogatory remarks. The unnecessary use of derogatory language has produced a toxic culture war between the camps which is a reflection of modern western culture. The level of bullying and harassment that has been tolerated is hard to fathom for people who work in academics or other professional careers. It clearly allows the toxic atmosphere that has become so prevalent to continue and even grow. There needs to be drastic changes to change this atmosphere which brings out the worst in people.

Enforcement of Civility Severely Lacking and Removal of Incompetent Administrators

The elimination of the war culture is not possible but the enforcement of civility is through better training of admins and elimination of those admins who have not shown an ability to deal effectively with people. There are incompetent admins who create issues by not using sound judgment when enforcing the guidelines and thus misapply them. There are also admins who have taken a political position and cannot separate their admin duties from their own ideology. They are especially harmful to genuine open discourse and they add to the existing warring culture that is over taking Wikipedia. There are also admins who appear to have some personal issues or chemical dependencies who often are abusive to other editors. It would benefit the project to make it easier for WMF to issue a suspension pending review and recall of admins who have not effectively executed the obligations they assumed when they accepted the position.

Those Pesky Edit Count Stackers and (Trolling Rollbackers- Trollbackers)

There are also many people with a great deal of knowledge who want to participate in the project but do not have the time to deal with the revert trolls who stack up edit counts by going around reverting with little knowledge of the material. They look at the editor and make sure it is not someone who could stand up to them and without exercising a great deal of thought they revert. The usual victims of the trollbackers are new editors and anyone who dares edit with an IP. The unregistered contributor is voraciously targeted as sock or someone editing logged out with no evidence but a paranoid culture against anyone who does not choose to join the club. They are usually given little in the way of assume good faith and to be damned to hades if they know anything about the project. The paranoid schizophrenic attitude towards new accounts and unregistered editors borders on a cult like atmosphere.

Ideologues Pushing their Propaganda through Tendentious Editing and Task Forces

Then there are the many ideologues who own an article and see Wikipedia as a means to push their propaganda to further their viewpoint of how they believe things should be. They often remove well documented additions that contradict their viewpoint and add their own viewpoint often laced with sources from blogs and politically oriented websites that clearly lack reliability. They often coordinate attacks by establishing a task force of like minded ideologues where they interact regularly and gain important allies in their quest to turn Wikipedia into a source that reflects their viewpoint in the best light.

Closing

The toxic editing atmosphere has been covered much in the past at Jimbo's page and some attempts have been made to improve the atmosphere but it still remains very dysfunctional. It is time harsher measures were put in place to deal with incompetent admins who are ineffective in executing the duties they agreed to when applying and accepting the position. The poisonous editing environment at Wikipedia has increasingly become the subject of articles in the media. The reputation of Wikipedia is being severely damaged by the lack of disciplined administrators. It has also caused many good administrators to leave the project due to the constant infighting and lack of civility especially at ANI. It is time some drastic measures be taken to improve the reputation of Wikipedia and encourage greater participation.

Commentary

I am sure there will be some offended as their behavior has been highlighted and is being greatly discouraged by the article. Please leave your comments below. Be sure to practice civility and address the argument and refrain from personal attacks because that demonstrates your argument lacks merit. Mr. Wales your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Very Respectfully 208.54.38.224 (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss ways Wikipedia can be improved. Leave the blame game and snark at ANI, it is my intention to find constructive ways to improve the project and ideas on how that can be accomplished. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 13:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments

Please sign into your account. Tutelary (talk) 04:11, 2arize 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Any reasonably intelligent high school junior can cherry pick the negatives and summarize the criticisms without any obligation to provide diffs or stand on an established record of trying to solve problems while building the encyclopedia. Maximum transparency. Then, we will talk. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello Tutelary and thank you for your interest in improving Wikipedia. Also, thank you for taking the time to write all that you deserve a reply.

I agree people shouldn't use their user pages to store tons of major serious hardcore porn. That seems wrong. But it's hard to say for sure without an example because it would depend on the exact context and details of the particular case because one person's pornography is another person's art and lots of people have pictures on their USER pages and we don't want to go around policing everyones pictures that would be a drag. It's possible you're just getting all worked up about something that is really no big deal, I can't tell without looking at the context. Certainly, however, we don't want people using their Wikipedia pages as a place to store porn.

Similarly it's hard to understand what exactly you're talking in terms of mainspace and talk page edits without examples and details.

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience on Wikipedia and I promise to try to help you if I can but I'm just me. But I can't tell what you're talking about because we need specifics. Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@Chrisrus: Tutelary didn't make the original post. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I am starting to think that a lot of these long winded anonymous posts are from the same person. If you want to hide your identity then expect to have little influence here, full stop. Chillum 05:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for illustrating my point and providing specific examples. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Your post demonstrates an abundance of history here but where is that history? Everyone else here has their contributions visible to other users. Chillum 05:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree for the most part with the anon. If he or she wishes to remain anonymous, I think we can deal with the points that s/he lays out. The obvious one that jumps out at me is that admins don't seem to feel the need to enforce the rules anymore - just pick and choose which rules to enforce and who to enforce them against. Of course, editing as an IP and having an account technically makes him/her a sock, so .... Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The only thing that's obvious is side A will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side B and side B will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side A. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I have never once had administrators rule in my favor, even when I'm following all the rules, and other users are harassing me relentlessly, breaking all kinds of policies. For example: [1]

Note that @Jimbo Wales: actually personally warned one of these users for personal attacks a month ago, threatening a block. Well, Dave Dial is still harassing away, with no action having been taken against him. I'm beginning to think the administrators here are all corrupt. TBSchemer (talk) 11:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• PER WP:SOCK/Editing While Logged Out:

There is no policy against editing while logged out. This happens for many reasons, including not noticing that the login session had expired, changing computers, going to a Wikipedia page directly from a link, and forgetting passwords. Editors who are not logged in must not actively try to deceive other editors, such as by directly saying that they do not have an account or by using the session for the inappropriate uses of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy. To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki. Please refrain from casting aspersions and demands unrelated to the argument. Thanks for the few comments that actually addressed the article. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Without specifics it is difficult to respond to your concerns. Perhaps if you provided diffs that showed this mistreatment it would help a lot. As it stands you are an anonymous person making vague complaints. Chillum 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please reread title and it is clear it is about an atmosphere not a specific complaint as those are addressed at ANI and this is not ANI. Your repeated requests are being ignored so there is no point in requesting them. Please stay on topic and if you have some constructive comments related to the atmosphere here please do so. Thanks. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 06:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The complaints partly echo the issues described in the Technology Review article most of you have probably seen,[2] partly pursue themes we've heard endlessly from the Gamergate and related conflicts, and generally touch on issues well known to regulars. And the saying is "comment on the edits not the editor". So I don't think the calls for diffs and identification are impressive. The problems are deep and complicated and meta: might be a better place to discuss them. I'll abstain from adding my own theories here, except general advice for newbies: if you 1) stay away from contentious topics at first (regulars get reverted in them too); 2) concentrate on adding new info to articles rather than getting into conflicts about removing stuff; and 3) avoid editorializing and include solid citations for everything you add, you probably won't get reverted. Unfortunately it takes some experience to know how to do these things. I don't think this is an improvement over the "old" Wikipedia. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 06:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

"Distrust, Spite, Malice" - Is this a good example? BTW, the original poster should look at WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• While I have no doubt that the scenario you portray in your opening section has happened numerous times, I seriously disbelieve that it is as ubiquitous or universal experience as you are implying. My own personal experience as a noob was actually quite the opposite. Nyth63 14:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, we still do allow editing by unregistered IP accounts, as Wichita208... points out. It would be nice — and a real boon to the editing climate here — if we could do something about that as part of any substantial reform project. Carrite ((talk)) 17:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

..........that said, this looks like more of the same in terms of carping about the community standard for civility enforcement and complaint about blind reversion of IP editors — albeit without a single, solitary diff to illustrate the case. All of which is presented behind the cloak of an alternate account... Carrite (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Not too sure about the gender wars stuff, but pretty much everything else this user has pointed out I can corroborate with firsthand experience over the years. The constant assumptions of bad faith on the part of admins, the extreme heavy handedness towards new users, the article ownership and users who seem to spend the majority of their time doing nothing but reverting, and involved admins who don't know how to recuse themselves from their duties when they involve subjects they're personally vested in--these are all attributes that are driving away potential contributors. As for sexually explicit imagery and the idea of Wikipedia for Kids, I don't agree with the censorship approach, but I do think a small warning about non-worksafe imagery might be helpful for both children and adults. More importantly though, random talk pages often have people swearing like sailors with no repercussions for acting incivil.

I think perhaps the biggest issue when it comes to admin misconduct is just how difficult it is to get any single admin desysopped. There just aren't powerful enough consequences for abuse.174.45.178.216 talk) 20:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• I shuttered with recognition at each of 208.54.38.224 (talk)'s points. They have happened to me or I have seen them happen to others, and not always just to women. I love working in concert with others, brainstorming and forging something of value. There's a great sense of accomplishment when a good piece of work is done. However, I abhor confrontation and ad hominem attacks. The pillars and policies are always ignored by the nasty, leaving the non-aggressive with nowhere to go. Maybe my intestinal fortitude level is too low to try to participate in such a rough and tumble arena as Wikipedia. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for the few that came and added constructively and I do thank those who helped illustrate the point I am making by posting personal attacks and extreme distrust of IP's. It is unfortunate they failed to address the argument and how to actually improve Wikipedia. One editor suggested to ban IP's but without much reason other than they can hide behind a cloak. Some are upset when they cannot easily target someone with unwarranted attacks. That type of character assassination is what makes Wikipedia such an unwelcome place for many. It is that distrustful, assume no faith attitude that has poisoned the editing environment. The lack of decorum, rampant distrust and character assassination continue to erode the community standards. There are great guidelines covering behavior here at Wikipedia but they remain only platitudes because of the toxic vile flowing from so many regular editors who would have long ago sent packing in any professional environment.

In regards to Wordreader it is not about intestinal fortitude but about reasonable expectations. It is reasonable to expect the environment here would reflect a more professional and ordered editing atmosphere. It may be you have more sense and better things in life to do than to engage in unproductive go no where arguments. Some regular editors enjoy ripping other editors which is a sign of personal insecurity. Some enjoy cyber attacking others to boost their imaginary self importance. I am often reminded of the country song about the guy who is a real hero on the internet in his own mind. They have become very skilled in the art of cyber insults from spending many hours daily engaging in it and a new contributor is likely to be turned off from further editing. The question I ask is how do they help the community foster a conducive and welcoming environment for those who have come to add their expertise but whose own busy lives do not allow the time to address petty editors looking for another cyber smack down. It as if the inmates are running the asylum. 208.54.38.202 (talk) 11:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Dear IP user, while I see truth in some of your points, I think it is important to realize that change on Wikipedias usually happens incrementally. Proposals are brought to the Village Pump, RfC are started, articles are continually undergoing revision. Because of its history, organization and culture, Wikipedia is not a place where drastic, website-wide, changes normally occur. You are proposing changing a culture which has grown and evolved over 14 years and that won't happen over the course of a few discussions. In fact, I don't even know how a group could accomplish your goal of changing a culture without shutting down completely and restarting from scratch which isn't going to happen.
• For me, the most important factor is, Is Wikipedia culture getting "better" or getting "worse"? Most of my judgment comes from reading over old arbitration committee cases but it definitely seems to me that, compared to 10 years ago and considering its exponential growth, Wikipedia has a better, more equitable culture than it did. Policies have been created that addressed long-standing issues and that can serve to alleviate problems like conflicts of interest and maintaining neutral POV. Wikipedia is no doubt more bureaucratic than in its earliest days but rules and guidelines also help prevent abuses like you describe, even when they are not applied 100% of the time, 100% equally.
• No culture is ideal or perfect and you clearly offer some suggestions where there is room for improvement. I think you should create a proposal that you think could bring about the changes you would like to see and post it at the Village Pump where you might find support and assistance. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As another IP editor, I wholeheartedly endorse the message here. I have no account here, never had and at this rate never will, and 208.54.38.224 does a good job of explaining many of the reasons why. It's ridiculous the extent to which IP editors are denigrated on Wikipedia, in spite of WP:HUMAN. We get treated with suspicion when we know too much, and can't get anyone to listen at all if we don't. Go to the wrong forum to air your grievances, and you get called disruptive; correct the error and you're forum-shopping; get it right the first time and it's "please sign in to your account" which may very well not exist. And when you put in effort to detail a case of how you've been repeatedly personally attacked by an editor, you can rest assured that within half an hour an administrator will be along to summarily dismiss your complaint, argue that somehow you're the harasser, and make further personal attacks, snark at you further if you complain about it, and allege "battlefield attitude" on the basis of being upset about personal attacks and a failure to assume good faith. Absolutely unbelievable. 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to increase editor retention...

If you want to increase editor retention, I think a productive step toward doing that would be to encourage admins to apply policies equally to new users and long term users. Currently, there seems to be hesitation for administrators to enforce polices or block established users when they violate our polices. I suspect the reasons are related to longterm comradery (perhaps they’ve even shared a beer at some point) or else fear of retaliation from well connected users. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It could be a simple cost/benefit calculation, BoboMeowCat...if I block Editor X for Infringement Z, would the benefit to the project outweigh the cost? If Editor X has been active for years and contributed a lot to Wikipedia, is preventing them from editing (because blocking is not a punishment, right?) preventing disruption or preventing constructive work on Wikipedia? With an unknown, new editor, it's unclear what their future holds on WP...if you look at the stats, the majority of new editors make 10 edits or less or edit very irregularly. If they are being disruptive, it's clearly of more benefit to the project to stop their disruption rather than bet on the chance that they will straighten out, change their ways and become a productive editor. But blocks usually escalate in length so most new editors who are not obvious vandals or spammers are given second chances.

I'm not saying this is how admins make these decisions or if this is how they should make these decisions...it's just one way that admins, confronted with regular complaints of disruption and incivility might approach these decisions. I think the most important factor is that admins are not a homogeneous bunch and you will find a variety of approaches to the admin tasks at hand. This might seem to some like inconsistency but I think it is actually a benefit to the project as those with different attitudes balance each other out and appeals to blocks are typically evaluated by an uninvolved admin.Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Liz, I agree that blocks should not be punitive, but they should serve to deter recurrent violation of our rules and polices. Recurrent violations of our rules and polices (by editors who are apparently exempted from them) disrupts the encyclopedia. Personally, I think if a long term contributor will only continue editing, if the rules are not uniformly applied to them, then the project is better off without them, even if they are good writers. There are likely plenty of good writers out there, but I suspect many of them are put off by the current battleground environment. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As I've argued in the past on another IP - if anything, established editors should be held to a higher standard - because they are assumed to know better. The idea that certain people are "irreplaceable" and need to be retained is not only laughable, it's contradictory to the very notion of an "encyclopedia that anyone can edit". It's fine to say "competence is required", but if there's genuinely this core of editors (the way there sometimes appears to be) who believe "competence" (as defined by them) is really so rare, then Wikipedia is only paying lip service to its core defining attribute.

For what it's worth, since it has recently been fashionable to bemoan the gender imbalance among established editors - I am 110% sure that the gender balance among IP contributors is much closer to 50-50. Perhaps established editors should consider the possibility that the problem keeping women from registering isn't some systemic bias in article content or in explicitly stated policy, or even a systemic bias in how policy is applied, but a systemic bias in their conduct. Why would any reasonable woman voluntarily sign up for this mess, especially when one of the first pieces of advice they'll receive is to hide their identity to avoid harassment? Why should they feel welcome when the best attempts by supposedly "feminist" editors to welcome them are clearly patronizing (e.g. suggesting that their poor sensibilities are too fragile to deal with an encyclopedia that hosts an article on "Fucking Machines" and deems it to be of high quality)? 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

As for the idea that "blocks shouldn't be punitive" - absolutely farcical, at least if there is any intent to imply that everyone's on board with that idea. I have recently been shown new editors get indeffed for simple 3RR violations. Not only is the application of policy on Wikipedia hilariously inconsistent, there are multiple pieces of policy that explicitly advocate for inconsistent application (WP:IAR, WP:OTHERSTUFF, WP:POINT...). 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Paid administrators

While there are several things wrong with the current Wikipedia culture, I wonder if removing the community appointed admins for paid ones might help. The problem is this, (with a few exceptions) police officers are not subject to the whim of a community, they merely enforce the laws on the book. But here at Wikipedia, admin actions are subject to community consensus, which is often erratic and contradictory, and sometimes unduly influenced by "popularity contests". I.e., what constitutes disruption is largely a factor of who you are and who you know. If we removed all community appointed admins and let the Wikimedia Foundation hire them I think we could get back to a more consistent editing environment for all. Let the community decide policy and guidelines, but leave the enforcement of them up to people not burdened by peer pressure and popularity contests. Maybe this is cost prohibitive, as I really don't know how many paid admins would be needed to cover the workload. And please forgive me if this is a perennial debate, but I don't see that it's been discussed anywhere. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Seriously: it might be a better idea to set up a paid department at wherever Wikipedia's head office is, with trained staff to give pastoral support to admins and editors having problems, or where other editors can pass on any concerns about admins who they suspect are having personal problems. Due to unavoidable human nature, some areas of Wikipedia can be fraught and noisy places - the current expectation that the editorship has some psychic knowledge that a particular Admin (who appears tough) is actually fragile is a flawed concept. Giano (talk) 18:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The Village Pump would be the place to seek answers to these questions. I do believe a proposal was brought there a few months ago, seeking to have the cummunity's ability to elect administrators revoked. The result was to keep the status quo. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, the Village Pump is subject to the same type of popularity contest mentality, and any idea brought there that challenges the status quo would likely get rejected out of hand. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Rationalobserver, I'm not evaluating the strength of your suggestion just reminding you that you need to consider your proposal for the English Wikipedia and multiply it times, I'm guessing, a factor of 200. While the English Wikipedia is the most visited and edited WMF website, it doesn't exist in isolation and the prospect of paying administrators on one language Wikipedia but not others would be a big source of disruption throughout the network of WMF sites that all rely on the work of volunteers. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point, but do the other Wikipedia's have an issue with admins and community consensus? Maybe we only need them here. Sorta like a pilot program. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know, do we? Is there a fundamental problem that you have evidence and proof for? And what's wrong with community consensus? That's what the entire site is based off. Whether to keep a page, delete a page, merge pages, redirect them, delete categories. Even in ArbCom there's semblance of consensus, if they have a consensus that an admin is not adhering to certain standards and is breaking those standards, they have the power via a consensus of arbitration members to desysop that admin. It's a backbone for the entire site. Relating that to this, the bar for something to -not- be done for consensus is very few and they are for good reason. WP:OFFICE for legal issues. So why would we need to subvert community consensus, that is assuming there is one--just to have admins do stuff that the community doesn't agree with? It sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'm very concerned that the community doesn't agree with it, why should it be done? Tutelary (talk) 18:24, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

(BK)Yes, they have. just ask any of the bigger ones;) I'm against this, as it gives far too much power to the mere supporting agency WMF and takes it away from the real sovereigns here, that#s the communities. The wikiverse exists only because of the communities, they deliver next to everything: the content, the donations (that flow because of the content), lot's of tools and programming, most of the organizing.... The WMF lives from the communities, it just acts sometimes as if it's not this way (see my sig). --♫ Sänger - Talk - superputsch must go 18:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes. If we had paid admins what are the odds we'd have Visual Editor as a default? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 18:29, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Rationalobserver, I don't contribute to Wikipedias in other language but, from an organizational sense, the smaller the admin corps are, the more influential each admin potentially is and I am under the impression that other Wikipedias have far fewer admins (per editor) than the English Wikipedia. So the admins there can more strongly influence the culture, especially because they don't often come to this user talk page to discuss problems that exist.

One problem regarding administration on the English Wikipedia is that the numbers of active admins have dwindled to 500-600 (from, I think, around 1500+) and since admins often focus their work on specific areas of the encyclopedia, like city policemen, they often have a "beat" or patrol. Some work at addressing problems with SPIs, copyright, dispute resolution, AfDs, RPPs, UAAs, FACs or any number of other areas. If you find yourself bringing issues to AN/I or AE often, you are most likely to run into the same group of admins who regularly check those noticeboards. And, for good or ill, editors and admins on Wikipedia have long memories and it's important not to burn your bridges because any time you bring a case, your own behavior, past and present, can be under scrutiny.

Right now, as at almost every other time Wikipedia has existed, the procedure of electing admins is being discussed and it has continually been critiqued and evaluated. There seems to be a general consensus that problems exist but none of the remedies that have been suggested over the past years have won approval. Having a greater number of admins might relieve some of the stress that current admins work under as there would be more individuals sharing the workload. But because of past problems, new candidates for RfAs are under much tougher scrutiny than ten years ago when there were usually a couple RfAs running each week (instead of one or two a month). Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:58, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• A rather fundamental point is being overlooked. Who is going to pay these admins and with what? It's better to look after the admins we have and make sure they are fully trained and well focused. Giano (talk) 18:54, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I will have to say Giano is right here...what we need is a training process for the admins we have and new ones....level of abilities if you will. -- Moxy (talk) 19:01, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Beyond likely being financially impossible, I fail to see what this proposal would reasonably do. Its not like being paid eliminates things like bad judgement calls, human error, bias, or anything else that people feel are wrong with current admin. If anything, it'd make things worse, as it would add an extra "paid corruption" dimension to people's complaints. (You know, the "Wikipedia is so slanted in this political/religious/social viewpoint, no wonder that admin supports it - they pay him to push that view!" kind of junk.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't WMF have around 50 gazillion dollars in savings or something, which they're not spending on anything? Bosstopher (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually a quarterly report was just issued. WMF surpassed their fundraising goal but, for some reason, the amount of money dispensed in grants has decreased. I don't know what kind of savings the WMF has but I think you could find out more information on http://meta.wikimedia.org in the official documents. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:23, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As a pilot program, it doesn't take a huge investment. Start with some training at SF for a pilot group of admins, that enables these admins to get to know their way around the organization as well as the policies. Make sure the group members all understand the existing admin policies. Then put them on admin duties three shifts of eight hours / day, two people per shift-- a primary person and a backup. Six people, maybe eight to ensure full coverage on weekends. This way you know there will always be at least one trained administrator available. (Could also be set up with four shifts per day of six hours). After a few months of working as administrators and sharing experiences, the pilot group gets together, possibly with a person who is a professional specializing in online community development, and writes a training guide for administrators.

Also, have the group look at the question of whether the technical and conduct aspects of the admin role should be divided into two different positions, and if so, what tasks, tools, and permissions are needed.

This isn't all that difficult. However, participants do need to be paid in order to ensure that the project is carried out by qualified individuals who are in a position to make this a full time commitment. --Djembayz (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

For those interested in training administrators, a grant proposal is already available. If people reading this are interested in participating, there is a call for volunteers, developers, advisors, community organizers, designers, and researchers. -- Djembayz (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• I've seen this suggested more than once lately, but it still makes no sense. We have plenty of qualified people who would be willing to do admin work for free; the problem is a selection process that anyone (including outside focus groups) can blackball. So ... why pay for what we can have free? Why not focus on the barrier itself, i.e. the acceptance process? You could, for example, pay 100 random Wikipedians a $20 gift certificate to impartially evaluate each admin candidate and vote on them, and obviously that would still be cheaper than one paid admin's salary. (Honestly, I suspect it is so ingrained in society that the rich are better than the poor and deserve continual tribute from the poor until the poor are entirely used up and somehow Removed from Play, that people simply apply this model to anything that seems related to social status, even when the comparison is faulty) Wnt (talk) 00:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

With regards to selection of administrators, the current system is voting, with no particular qualifying process. We are understandably getting mixed results. Identifying the necessary skills and policy familiarity for administrators, and putting together a required training program would ensure that the people the community votes on are properly prepared to do the job. Having the existing administrators complete a standardized training periodically, even as a refresher, would help ensure that all are on the same page. If you have an interest in volunteering to organize a group to put together an administrator training program, by all means do so! But if it hasn't happened in 11 years, most likely some sort of resources need to be put into this project to make it a success. --Djembayz (talk) 01:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

• I see. So, what if one paid admin refuses to work on closing acrimonious deletion discussions and if they are all paid the same, a strike ensues over unfair wages per tasks? Or take on tasks like blocking a "vested" contributor? Maybe a few Dirty Harry/Rambo types might be willing to do the dirtiest deeds for more cash!--MONGO 01:36, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
  • If we were to have paid/professional administrators, we could setup a queue of tasks and you would be assigned tasks in a way that you could not cherry pick the easiest/non-controversial ones. If you are working, say, the AFD queue today, then you would be assigned the next oldest AFD to process, you would process it, and then you would get another one to do. --B (talk) 01:46, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
    • How about maybe a bonus incentive program! What's a possible bonus to block Jimbo?! (Just kidding Jimbo!)--MONGO 01:53, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Well, that would be the whole point of the queue system. Someone who seeks out the high-profile drama-causing blocks would not necessarily get them any more. You're not leaving those issues to whoever is reading the ANI thread and decides that they're ready to pull the trigger. (Note that I'm not actually in favor of a professional admin corps as a practical matter - I'm just suggesting a system where it could be workable.) --B (talk) 03:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia as an organization has a general problem with decision-making. This is a natural drawback in making decisions via "consensus", which is whimsical, easily gamed and varies greatly depending on who shows up. It also encourages battleground mentalities, since a final decision is never made, so competing editors are allowed to argue endlessly. Consensus on Wikipedia is actually much less vulnerable to a "popularity contest" I think than corporate environments though, where many employees flourish based primarily on their likeability. It would be great to find a way for Wikipedia to make faster, more consistent, more clear-cut decisions on everything ranging from content to administrative actions, but doing so can only occur at a loss to the principles of a community model. CorporateM (Talk) 04:12, 2 March 2015 (UTC)