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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2605:6000:5644:600:f90a:ca55:cc66:1e7c (talk) at 06:00, 7 November 2016 (→‎Requested move 29 October 2016). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Orphaned references in Ashley Fliehr

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Ashley Fliehr's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "OWOW":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 18:36, 18 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:26, 18 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ashley Fliehr → Charlotte (wrestler) – She hasn't really wrestled as "Ashley Fliehr" or "Ashley Flair" from what I remember. All her notability has been as "Charlotte." GeicoHen (talk) 14:08, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Risky, but Support --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 18:01, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • WHOOO! Makes sense. She's more famous for being Flair's daughter than anything, but "Charlotte" is probably more commonly associated with Flair than the name "Fliehr" is. More importantly, it's the name she's done semi-notable things under. High school volleyball and being someone's relative don't count for much. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:33, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Bayley (wrestler) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Charlotte Flair?

Given the existence of other article names such as Naomi Knight and the recently-renamed Christian Cage, which have added the wrestlers' less commonly used character surnames in order to remove the need for the less concise (wrestler) disambiguation marker, would it possibly be a good idea to move Charlotte's article to outright become Charlotte Flair? I understand it's not quite the same deal, as Charlotte Flair has never been her official ring name at any point; however, she is openly acknowledged as Ric Flair's daughter as an integral part of the Charlotte persona, we know "Flair" is "Fliehr" re-spelled, and Charlotte Flair has become a common unofficial name to refer to her as to the point that even NXT commentators have slipped up and called her this on occasion. For that matter, it might be a good idea to do the same for Natalya and change her to Natalya Neidhart (which exists as a redirect), who has the added bonus of having her last name actually be used as part of the Natalya character name when she was originally introduced to the WWE main roster as well as on WWE.com in an article sourced from 2014. Thoughts? 73.204.231.72 (talk) 16:23, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not. You said it yourself: "Charlotte Flair has never been her official ring name at any point" -so she is no Christian Cage case - and neither part is her real name. That Ric Flair is clearly acknowledged as her father is beside the point as "The Rock" isn't filed under "Rock Johnson". Str1977 (talk) 15:00, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As stated, not her real name and her character does not use her father's last name. - Kiraroshi1976 (talk) 17:54, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

2008 Arrest Details and Latimer Marriage Year

The text of the cited news story only mentions an "unidentified 22-year-old man", not Riki Johnson. Furthermore, was she actually married at this time (the entry says "then-husband")? If you search Fliehr at the Mecklenburg County Record Database (http://meckrod.manatron.com/Marriage/SearchEntry.aspx?e=newSession), it shows a marriage license between the two was dated May 2010; so (assuming that 2010 date is accurate) either (a) they were married somewhere else in 2008, divorced, then remarried in 2010, or (b) they weren't married in 2008.

Somewhat related, the Latimer marriage took place in 2013 (if that detail would help the entry) according to the Orange County Comptroller (again, search Fliehr at http://or.occompt.com/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp). Dalton Imperial (talk) 15:09, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Queen

@TheBellaTwins1445: re your removal at special:diff/735897565

Assuming you watched Raw last night you must remember hearing Charlotte being called this. It is definitely a reliable change to introduce this nickname to her article.

I did not introduce any new sources. I cited ones we have already accepted. Please add back the information you removed from the page.

I realize the Bellas are sore about Charlotte ending Nikki's reign but that is no reason to go and remove her nicknames. Ranze (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is no source to reference so the removal was valid. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" (talk) 03:52, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I aliased 3 sources already present on the page for it. I can find some new ones if you like. Ranze (talk) 04:48, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ranze: knock it off dude. You've been through this process before. Stop adding unsourced, nonnotable nicknames for wrestlers. CrashUnderride 04:01, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The nickname had 3 sources next to it, if you actually check the diff. It established notability going back for some time. One of Charlotte's moves is actually named after this nickname, it's clearly notable. Ranze (talk) 04:48, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You put three sources next to it but none of them said that was her nickname.LM2000 (talk) 05:13, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@LM2000: I will reproduce the 3 sources I originally expanded, here for you to read, along with explanations.

  1. "Views from the Hawke's Nest: NXT Takeover". 411MANIA. 8 June 2014. Charlotte hit the Bow Down to the Queen
    This names one of her moves, BDttQ, clearly Charlotte is "the Queen" being bowed down to, in the move. It is a reinforcement of her nickname every time the announcers call the move. If this existed in isolation and Charlotte were some kind of monarchist then I could understand hesitation, but this links into the other sources...
  2. Trionfo, Richard (November 30, 2015). "WWE RAW REPORT: A NEW GROUP IS FORMED, IS THE QUEEN OF THE JUNGLE SHOWING HER TRUE STRIPES?, ARE THE NEW DAY TURNING INTO J&J SECURITY FOR SHEAMUS?, A FEW RETURNS, AND MORE". PWInsider. Retrieved November 30, 2015.
    The portion of the title "IS THE QUEEN OF THE JUNGLE SHOWING HER TRUE STRIPES?" refers to Charlotte feigning an injury then pinning Becky Lynch after her father distracted her. Who else do you think 'queen of the jungle' refers to here?
  3. Trionfo, Richard (June 23, 2016). "WWE SMACKDOWN REPORT: SETH ROLLINS MAKES AN OPEN CHALLENGE, THE BOSS OR THE QUEEN?, THE WYATTS MAKE A STATEMENT, AND MORE". Pro Wrestling Insider. Retrieved July 17, 2016.
    The title portion "THE BOSS OR THE QUEEN?" refers to the match between Sasha Banks (do you accept her nickname is "The Boss") and Charlotte. The article even includes this sentence if you bothered to read it: "Charlotte says the only statement that is going to be made is her bowing down to her. Sasha might be the Boss, but she is the Queen." I added this quote to the article's present citation of it.

Here too I will reproduce the 5 sources from WWE.com that you just removed in special:diff/735951179. I'm wondering if you even checked them before deleting them and demanding consensus, even though nobody had actually objected to them yet.

  1. Medalis, Kara A. (13 August 2014). "NXT Women's Champion Charlotte vs. Bayley". Will Charlotte sustain her rule over the NXT Divas division and make Bayley "Bow Down to the Queen" at NXT TakeOver?
    As above, this is simply supporting the move, clearly "the Queen" in the move's name is Charlotte.
  2. Taylor, Scott (26 May 2015). "'The Four Horsewomen' of NXT: Sasha Banks, Charlotte, Bayley and Becky Lynch on how they're changing women's wrestling". CHARLOTTE: Honestly, people ask all the time if we feel pressure to deliver, or do we feel pressure from people putting us in these positions. But I don't think any of us feel the pressure, just because we're able to lean on each other. I don't know how to explain it; you all know what I mean? Watch: .. The Queen vs. The Boss
    WWE here is supporting the phrase "The Queen vs. The Boss" for a Sasha/Charlotte match, nuff said.
  3. "Come at the Queen". 15 February 2016. Brie's Divas Championship Match with Charlotte at WWE Fastlane has taken on new meaning .. Charlotte was free to build momentum with a second victory over Alicia Fox
    "the Queen" in the title is referring to Charlotte, challengers like Alicia Fox are coming at her
  4. "Sasha and Charlotte are on the move in the WWE Power Rankings". 16 July 2016.
    The evidence here is actually in the URL.
  5. Wortman, James (21 August 2016). "Charlotte def. WWE Women's Champion Sasha Banks". The Boss bows to "the queen."
    The recent article on the summer slam win should really be the final nail in the coffin, you do understand who "the queen" is here, right?

What objections do you have to these five? I've presented overwhelming evidence here. Ranze (talk) 05:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The references refer to the move. Do you think Bayley should be called "The Stunner" because a 411Mania headline once said: "Bayley Hits The Stunner"?LM2000 (talk) 05:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ranze, just stop. You behavior and repeated additions of non-notable nicknames, disruptive editing and attempts to use sources that don't say anything about what your using them to source, will eventually get you blocked. CrashUnderride 06:36, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@LM2000: knowing Ranze, they will want to start listing "The Stunner" as a nickname for Bayley. lol. CrashUnderride 06:37, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ranze: Like I said before its unsourced. I have looked at every link you posted, ive read them carefully top to bottom, none of them refer to Queen being her nickname, just a move, which is the issue here. If you present something that says her nickname is now The Queen then im sure there will be no issue, until then it's a justified removal. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" (talk) 06:45, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear to me that the people objecting have not checked all of the sources. Perhaps you looked at one of the weaker ones and stopped there, not checking further.

@LM2000: only some of the sources do as you say. Ignore them if you'd like and focus on the ones which are clearly referring to Charlotte as "The Queen". For example here are two I'd like you to take a second look at:

This is not a new nickname though, it is using one that she's had for at least a year, as its incorporated into her move name. Ranze (talk) 09:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Crash Underride: when you are done telling jokes, feel free to look at sources like the one above. My adding proof is not disruptive. This nickname is notable. These sources all support "The Queen" connected with Charlotte, some more clearly than others. Please stop engaging in false accusations. Ranze (talk) 09:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@WarMachineWildThing: "its unsourced" is incorrect, I just listed sources for you, and I included sources each time I added it. Chris/WMWT you clearly missed something. Are you expecting the word "nickname" to be used? Look at the two sources I re-posted for LM2000 again please. Ranze (talk) 09:31, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Her finishing move is literally called "Bow to the Queen" and those sources all have to word "bow" shortly followed by the word "queen".LM2000 (talk) 10:02, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AGF is becoming difficult when you engage in misleading wordplay like this. Review the following sentence:

Charlotte says the only statement that is going to be made is her bowing down to her. Sasha might be the Boss, but she is the Queen.

Is it a nod to her finishing move? Sure, but it's still referring to Charlotte as being the queen. Having your nickname incorporated into one of your moves is common enough. Edge (wrestler) has the "Edgecution" for example.

Your saying "shortly followed by" is misleading because while "to the" is short, "-ing down to her. Sasha might be the Boss but she is" isn't particularly short. Plus that's "Bowing" not "Bow".

Also considering this:

The Boss bows to “the queen.”

Even if this is still a nod to Charlotte's move name, her move is not named "the queen", so Sasha is not bowing to Charlotte's finisher, she's bowing to Charlotte, aka "The Queen".

Where is "bow" in these four?

  1. Taylor, Scott (26 May 2015). "'The Four Horsewomen' of NXT: Sasha Banks, Charlotte, Bayley and Becky Lynch on how they're changing women's wrestling". CHARLOTTE: Honestly, people ask all the time if we feel pressure to deliver, or do we feel pressure from people putting us in these positions. But I don't think any of us feel the pressure, just because we're able to lean on each other. I don't know how to explain it; you all know what I mean? Watch: .. The Queen vs. The Boss
  2. Trionfo, Richard (November 30, 2015). "WWE RAW REPORT: A NEW GROUP IS FORMED, IS THE QUEEN OF THE JUNGLE SHOWING HER TRUE STRIPES?, ARE THE NEW DAY TURNING INTO J&J SECURITY FOR SHEAMUS?, A FEW RETURNS, AND MORE". PWInsider. p. 3. Retrieved November 30, 2015. Charlotte appears to have hurt her ankle. Charlotte kips up and she gets the rollup and three count while Ric distracts Becky.
  3. "Come at the Queen". 15 February 2016. Brie's Divas Championship Match with Charlotte at WWE Fastlane has taken on new meaning .. Charlotte was free to build momentum with a second victory over Alicia Fox
  4. "Sasha and Charlotte are on the move in the WWE Power Rankings". 16 July 2016. the-boss-and-the-queen-are-on-the-move-in-the-wwe-power-rankings

I don't see "bow" in these. Just "The Queen" consistently being used to refer to Charlotte from May 2015 to July 2016. Ranze (talk) 10:22, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some more:

Is all this going to be dismissed too? Ranze (talk) 10:51, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I call myself King but that doesn't make it my nickname. I reclaim my throne when I come home from work, doesn't make me king. Nothing says it's a nickname, sorry don't see it can't agree with it. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" (talk) 11:05, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Chris please stop addressing sources in isolation. I'm not making an argument to call Charlotte "The Queen" just because she does that. In addition to her, Ric Flair calls her that, WWE.com articles call her that, announcers call her that, and third party reviewers call her that. What special kind of criteria besides these types do you tend to rely on to support nicknames for wrestlers? Ranze (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I have problems with most of your sources, from those that are directly describing her hitting her finishing move, to those that probably are talking about Sasha Banks taking it (every source that says Boss vs Queen). The source from this diff, I think, is the strongest one you've provided so far actually. It is third party, reliable and quotes her directly talking about herself. This could be, and has been so far, dismissed as an offhand remark rather than a reoccurring nickname though. I'm interested to hear what others besides Chris and I think of the Twitter and Facebook sources Ranze provided and to see if those clarify that "The Queen" is truly a nickname.LM2000 (talk) 12:04, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
LM2000 do you really "The Boss vs The Queen" is referring to "Sasha versus Charlotte's finishing move" instead of "Sasha vs Charlotte"? Really? Have you ever heard the "Bow Down To The Queen" shortened to "The Queen"? If that move was ever going to be abbreviated it would be to "Bown Down" since that is the action-verb of the move and "the queen" is merely providing context as to who the victim is bowing down to (Charlotte). Thank you for acknowledging at least one of these sources. Facebook/Twitter are just to provide additional references, the best source is probably the statements directly on WWE.com referring to her as The Queen. Ranze (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Ranze: let's go through this again, earlier this year, you created a re-direct for Dean Ambrose from Iron Man of the WWE. The re-direct was deleted, because why? Oh yeah, just like this, Dean called himself that, ONE TIME. The name of a move means jack @#%$ until the name is applied to the wrestler, on a regular basis. I would be fine with the name being added, if only he ad become a regular name first and you wouldn't hear it and say "Hey, I gotta add this to Wikipedia before someone else" after only one reference. CrashUnderride 15:53, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Crash this is not an appropriate place for you to vent your personal vendetta against me that is leading you to disrupt this article. You are making false statements to support your narrative here and I think you should recuse yourself until you've actually checked the references and/or are willing to be honest about their contents. I've supplied about a dozen references by this point, not "one" as you incorrectly state. Charlotte refers to herself repeatedly as 'the queen' on her official facebook, WWE.com refers to her repeatedly as 'the queen' in pages I have linked above, third party reviewers also call her this. Ranze (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wha, wha wha, every critizims and attack. Grow up, follow the guidlines and stop your disruptive edits. CrashUnderride 01:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Oh and @Ranze: my only "vendetta" against you is when you instance to include "nicknames" that aren't notable and names that are obscure Talk:Cameron (wrestler)#Requested move 22 August 2016 and your constant lying by providing "sources" that mention nothing about what your using them to source. So there, that's my "vendetta" for everyone to see. Now please, stop whining and crying and provide the proper sources. CrashUnderride 01:32, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Crash Underride: you are disrupting the process of community discussion by mischaracterizing the sources I'm giving you. This is not an appropiate place to make personal attacks on me. Cameron's full name and Dean Ambrose's nicknames have nothing to do with Charlotte (wrestler). You can bring that up on the wikiproject or complain about it to admins or something.

I have provided proper sources, and those who have opted to honestly review them like LM2000 have acknowledged this even if still on the fence as to whether we agree on their importance. If you invite any third parties to come evaluate these sources they will plainly see that every source I've introduced is related to the association between Charlotte and "The Queen". Some indirectly (the ones referencing the "Bown Down to the Queen" move) and some directly (Charlotte being called "The Queen").

I have never lied here, and if you get that impression, you may not understand the context in which I have presented some of the sources, such as the indirect-support 'bown down' couple. Ranze (talk) 01:47, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well here's how we can stop these situations from arising; wait and see if a nickname stays before rushing to add it like you have with Iron Man of the WWE and (how it's a redirect is beyond me) Radical Mongoose. Only then will I WP:AGF when it comes to you. So, yes, when I see you've editted a page I cringe and expect you to have added information that's not notable. CrashUnderride 01:53, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Marriage references

I have introduced a couple template:unreliable source? templates to the date ranges given here and I don't think they should be removed until we have updated out sources. We presently do have sources but they do not support all the numbers given.

The side template says (m. 2010; div. 2012) for Johnson and (m. 2013; div. 2015) for Latimer. Both are probably true. I assume good faith and whoever added them probably did get them from a reliable source but just didn't include it.

The sources we actually include which mention the marriage are these:

  1. Aquino, Denise (July 26, 2015). "5 Things You Probably Didn't Know About Charlotte Flair". Geekend Gladiators. Charlotte was married to Riki Johnson. The couple got married in North Carolina last May 2010 .. Right now, she is still currently married to Thomas Raymond Latimer
  2. Ahmed, Tufayel (October 6, 2014). "TNA Wrestling's Bram on his famous father in-law Ric Flair: 'It's not something you think about, it feels normal'". Daily Mirror. Retrieved October 16, 2014.
  3. Johnson, Mike (November 3, 2015). "Charlotte-Bram update". Pro Wrestling Insider. Retrieved November 3, 2015. That divorce was finalized in the State of Florida on 10/29.

The first source affirms the month/year she married Johnson but does not mention what year they divorced. We still need a source to affirm that they divorced in 2012.

The second and first source affirms that she was presently married to Latimer during the time of each article's publication (October 2014 and July 2015) but neither mentions when they got married, we still need a source affirming that 2013 was the year they were married.

The third source affirms the date that she and Latimer were divorced (October 2015) but nothing about when the marriage began, or when she and Johnson divorced.

So basically, we need sources to support the "divorced Johnson 2012" and the "married Latimer 2013" stats. If this data is presently available in a reference currently here then we need to alias it and cite it. Only the "married Johnson 2010" and "divorced Latimer 2015" stats are supported right now by the cites. Ranze (talk) 19:50, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Update: @Dalton Imperial: was right about the Orange Country Compttroller, I just added that to support the 2013 marriage to Latimer, now the only source missing is the 2012 divorce date to Johnson. Perhaps if we could find out what state it happened in we could find a similar Comptroller log for it? Ranze (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I am reading these correctly all that is missing is the divorce from Johnson. So if we were to break everything down she could have divorced him anytime between 2010 and 2013. Am I correct in assuming that it is not known where they were living when married, alot of divorces can be found in court records if we knew what state. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" (talk) 22:00, 25 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 October 2016

Charlotte (wrestler) → Charlotte Flair – As with Natalya Neidhart, WP:NATDAB would have applied anyway, but should be moved per WP:NAMECHANGES as this is what she is being billed as now.[1] LM2000 (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WWE establishes it as her ring name. Maybe we should wait till media calls her "Flair". This will be similar when Emmalina returns. --wL<speak·check> 22:06, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It remains to be seen. WWE has flip-flopped before. But, of course, WP must be quicker. Str1977 (talk) 22:13, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
She actually was introduced as simply "Charlotte" at Hell In A Cell, which IMO counts more than a few interns at WWE.com adding the surname and a couple of sites reporting on wrestling parroting that. Str1977 (talk) 14:15, 1 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT It was on numerous sites that she was adding Flair to her name. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" Talk to me 08:42, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what I said. I said that we need confirmation, such as a Hell in a Cell results page or the ring announcer to call her "Charlotte Flair." I didn't say that it'll be dropped over time. JTP (talk • contribs) 20:23, 30 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WWE.com is a main source, Wikipedia is founded on sources. The fact there are so many solid sources and this is still going on is insane. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" Talk to me 02:05, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One thing I missed, but Silverfish pointed out on Talk:Hell in a Cell (2016), was that her official social media accounts are using the full name: [6], [7], [8]. There seems to be little doubt that this is the full name of the wrestling character. I'm not sure if it matters that they don't call her by her first and last name every time she comes to the ring.LM2000 (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is like Xavier Woods still saying "…your WWE World Tag Team Champions," even though the championship is referred to as the Raw Tag Team Championship now. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 05:43, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If you think WWE.com, which is primarily in-universe/fictional ongoings is a reliable/main source, then you have a lot to learn about how research works. Idenitor (talk) 16:28, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Idenitor: Please read WP:PW/RS. WWE.com is a reliable source. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 19:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

SUPPORT Should already be moved, but to add my two cents, essentially all official sources are using "Charlotte Flair" now, including WWE themselves (as noted multiple times above). They've gone as far as listing her as "Charlotte Flair" on the Raw Women's Championship title history, even for her first two reigns when she was just "Charlotte". The argument that the announcers haven't called her "Charlotte Flair" is silly. Ring announcers often use the short name. --JDC808 ♫ 04:56, 7 November 2016 (UTC) Support It's been made official that her name is Charlotte Flair.[reply]

Add Bow Down to The Queen as the NXT name for Natural Selection

It was the name of her somersault cutter on from her NXT debut and at least until she won the NXT Women's Championship at NXT Takeover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grizzexploder (talk • contribs) 09:40, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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