Talk:Czech Republic

Czech Republic Transport in the Czech Republic." Czech Republic. N.p., n.d. Web. 10 Oct. 2016. AlexisElena (talk) 17:16, 10 October 2016 (UTC)AlexisElena

"Czechia" controversy

It should be mentioned the name "Czechia" is controversial. More widely used name is "Czech". It's adjective from the longer term "Czech Republic". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valtri (talk • contribs) 12:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Nothing controversial my friend, Czechia is now the new formal name of the Czech Republic. ;-) 202.72.165.105 (talk) 05:31, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Nope, Czech Republic is still the formal name. Czechia is the informal/geographical name. Just as France (informal/geographic) is formally known as the French Republic. --Khajidha (talk) 13:04, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

.....as the French Republic has geographic name France, the Czech Republic has Czechia :-PJan Blanický 16:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. So the article should be called Czechia. It's so simple... Carvin (talk) 08:36, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

yesJan Blanický 16:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Article titles use the most common English name. Czechia is only just barely used enough now to be in the lead. We will wait to see if it actually becomes the common name or if general usage remains the Czech Republic. --Khajidha (talk) 12:20, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

No, the states have official political names and official geographic names. You should use official geographic name, because it can be keyword, because of no limitation by time and political character of the state. Political name defines only current political formation in the state, but not the country as a whole with historical continuity. You cannot write about "the Czech Republic" in historical context except the period from 1993. Therefore, the main keyword in an encyclopedy cannot be a transient political name. Personally, you can wait and call it how you want, we will use it :-)Jan Blanický 16:22, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, but you're wrong. Just as the United States history class I took in high school could and did cover the time before 4 July 1776, so too can a "History of the Czech Republic" cover history before 1993. However, you must phrase things in a different manner. You cannot say that "In the Czech Republic in 1587..." but you can say "in 1587 in what is now the Czech Republic...". As far as what the main keyword in an encyclopedia (not encyclopedy, that is not an English word) should be, Wikipedia convention is that articles should use their common names as titles. So far, even with the increasing usage of Czechia, this country is still best known in English as the Czech Republic. All the wishes and desires of every Czech throughout history count for absolutely nothing here. What is actually done in English is all that matters. --Khajidha (talk) 16:37, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

In the Czech Kingdom of Bohemia in 1587... is correct. Official name in Middle Ages was Čechy. In Latin Bohemia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.214.97.242 (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Erb Jižní Moravy

Could someone redraw the bunch of grapes in the lower-left quadrant of the South Moravian coat of arms / flag? I originally drew that like a decade ago, assuming someone would fix it, and it still looks awful.

Czechia now in UNGEGN (July 5 2016)

The short name "Czechia" is now in UNGEGN as of July 5 2016: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/geonames/ Kind of makes most of this discussion moot and the name should be changed in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jiri.bohac (talk • contribs) 08:42, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Except that there is no provision for Wikipedia to follow UNGEGN. I'm pretty sure that UNGEGN doesn't use Cape Verde, Ivory Coast, or East Timor either, so there is plenty of precedent for us to follow our own rules. --Khajidha (talk) 12:39, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

@Khajidha: I would say wikipedia preferences are

officical formal name < official informal name (if known and used) < unofficial informal name (if known and used)

maybe with the exception Republic of Ireland where formal name is used to differentiate between Iraland state and Ireland island (my view would be to rename Ireland-> Ireland (island) and Republic of Ireland -> Ireland, but of course it is not up to me). Or some other exceptions maybe.

Anyway I am not expecting that all or any article names should now change Czech Republic to Czechia even though Czechia is now as official as it can be (right?).

But I would expect en wiki to be more tolerant to Czechia in some cases, e.g. hypothetical Czech book "Česko a Česká republika" translate like "Czechia and Czech Republic", not "Czech Republic and Czech Republic". Or TV show Česko hledá SuperStar - which contains explicitly short Czech version of the state - translate using short English version. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a tertiary source. We do not advocate usage - we reflect it. Czechia is the official short form name, so we properly reflect that. Czech Republic remains the common name for the country, so we continue to reflect that until/unless Czechia becomes the common name. It's really that simple.--Mojo Hand (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

In the first case you mention, of course we would use Czechia. The meaning is lost otherwise. The second case would probably still be translated as Czech Republic because that is the English common name. Czechia simply isn't used to any real degree in outside sources so it isn't used in running text here. --Khajidha (talk) 21:30, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

I had a similar problem on dewiki where some users, linking to the map on ungegn, tried to bring this news in the last days. After I have asked on the cswiki, see perma diff, I've got some links like reuters.com/... or trt.net.tr/francais/europe/... and so, imho, it is possible to insert this in the wikipedia as I did in dewiki [1]. Cheers, -jkb- (talk) 22:26, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

20160705 UN

published updated name Czechia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.59.74.167 (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

The UN homepage still uses the name Czech Republic, see here. /Hum Hum (talk) 11:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Rarely known as Czechia

I am very reluctant to bring this topic up again but I noticed that the lede says that the Czech Republic is "rarely known as Czechia". The use of the word "rarely" is a bit ridiculous given that the sentence is at the very beginning of the article. "Also known as Czechia" was more appropriate. There was a consensus here that Czechia would be mentioned in the lede, but when paired with "rarely", I see no point in mentioning Czechia at all. It appears that someone was reminded of the topic of Czechia now that it has been registered with the UN as an analogous name for the Czech Republic. Although it may not be popular with some people because of subjective feelings, Czechia is now officially the short name for the Czech Republic and that is a fact. So would it be possible to change "rarely" back to "also"? A Nebraska Cornhusker (talk) 18:39, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

The word also is misleading, implying some kind of reasonable frequency as a synonym (e.g., "Mumbai; also known as Bombay, ..." or "Maize, also known as corn, ..."). As clearly pointed out earlier (e.g., Herostratus's "... take a look at this chart") the name Czechia has no reasonable frequency that balances it with "Czech Republic". In fact, it's statistically equivalent to misspellings. I have no objection to it appearing in the lede, but we should be honest about its functional non-equivalence. Doremo (talk) 19:39, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I almost changed the text to "also officially though not commonly known as Czechia". It's accurate, but it feels a bit stilted.--Mojo Hand (talk) 20:17, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't listing Czechia as second, after "Czech Republic" imply its functional non-equivalence? (Although "Czechia" is rarely used compared to the usage of "Czech Republic", it is in fact legally equivalent to the Czech Republic)A Nebraska Cornhusker (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Not to dance too many angels on a pinhead, but there's really no such as a "legal" shortform in another language. Czechia is simply the English shortform preferred by the Czech government. Clearly we should acknowledge and record that information, but Wikipedia uses the common name over the legal or official name in almost all cases - see WP:COMMONNAME.--Mojo Hand (talk) 22:20, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Listing second doesn't imply anything about a term being rare (in addition to Mumbai/Bombay and maize/corn above, other examples are color/colour, organization/organisation, etc.). All of these are in active common use, whereas Czechia is a statistical flatliner. Doremo (talk) 03:02, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps "The Czech Republic ..., occasionally self-styled as Czechia ..." would be appropriate lede phrasing, as here or here. Doremo (talk) 03:07, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is this such an ENORMOUS problem just in the English language? There are endless discussions here, and even an article of its own just concerning the name of the country. In most other countries/languages this country is handled like most others in the world. One formal name (long form) for diplomatic and governmental use and one informal name (short form) used in most other cases. To use the name "Czechia" has nothing to with changing the name of the country. The key question is: Why differ English-language media from most others when it comes to the name of this country? --Muniswede (talk) 20:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It's very simple. Mainstream English sources are not in the habit of using this term so it makes no sense for us to use it. Also, it seems rather rude on the part of the Czechia boosters to insist that another language MUST do things their way. It is as ridiculous as it would be for me to try to force the Czech language to use the word "blue" instead of its own, native, word for that color. --Khajidha (talk) 22:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Most coutries are normally called by its short name. The only exceptions are Central African Republic (why really not just "Central Africa", like "South Africa"?) In the case of Dominican Republic it could be mixed up with Dominica (maybe a good reason), the UEA (problematic). But this one? There is de facto a short form, but "mainstrem media" refuses to use it. Increadible! --Muniswede (talk) 12:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

It's just another one of the many, many, many irregularities of the English language. What I don't understand is why the Czechs (or yourself) even care what English calls their country? I have no clue what my country is called in Czech, Swedish, or virtually any other language. In fact I have no desire to know as it is completely irrelevant to me. As long as another language doesn't use a word that would be offensive in and of itself in that language, why would anyone be upset about the name that it uses? --Khajidha (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Post script about "Central Africa": In English "Central Africa" means "the center part of Africa". The parallel terminology is "Southern Africa", as opposed to "South Africa". For whatever reason in the English language things like "South Korea" and "South Carolina" can be used as distinct polities as opposed to directionally determined regions. However, "Center Africa" would not be allowed. --Khajidha (talk) 15:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The reason media refused to use it was because the republic itself discouraged its use. Now it's not so anymore. Czechia is the common name of the country. /Hum Hum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hum Hum (talk • contribs) 10:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Media is getting used to the name Czechia: http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21697158-government-prefers-english-version-name-reminded-vaclav-havel-crawling /Hum Hum

Now known as Czechia

The country is now known as Czechia, even if this was not always so.About the nameCNNBBCNPRThe Atlantic, about how it was before — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.131.61.38 (talk) 10:34, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

At least usually, commonly. /Hum Hum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hum Hum (talk • contribs) 10:46, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Show me a mainstream English media source actually using it and not just commenting on it/explaining it. --Khajidha (talk) 12:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

CNN, BBC, The Atlantic all did nice stories in April about how the country wanted to be called Czechia, then pretty much immediately went back to calling it the Czech Republic - I looked at the search histories for all three sources.--Mojo Hand (talk) 20:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Funny how things can be. Funny how seemingly irrational journalist can describe things. One might have thought those articlew would have been the starting point for these news sources to change their own way of writing the country's name. I thought it was. /Hum Hum 09:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hum Hum (talk • contribs)

The starting point for a change in English language usage is for the country in question to start using the name in its English communications. Change the name plate at the UN, field sports teams under the new short form (I THINK this is starting), make press releases about events in the country (something like "Czechia seeks bids for construction of new railways"). Don't TELL us to change, SHOW us the change. --Khajidha (talk) 11:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but newspapers and news sites often take their own policy decissions on things like this. /Hum Hum 07:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Khajidha's comments on this topic here and elsewhere are correct. Proponents of the name Czechia should review WP:CRYSTALBALL, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:COMMONNAME, and other guidelines. If usage patterns change in the future, then future changes in WP will be appropriate. Doremo (talk) 11:19, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I think the current status of lead is good and we should stick to that. Itsyoungrapper (talk) 15:00, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The current lede ("also known as Czechia") is currently misleading for the reasons discussed above. Doremo (talk) 15:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no really short way to describe the situation in the lead. The other option is to remove "Czechia" from the lead entirely, returning to the previous set up where it is only mentioned in the Name (or is it Etymology?) section. --Khajidha (talk) 15:25, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This reminds me of the "Kazakstan" issue (see here). Despite the Kazakh government's 1995 decision, the h-less spelling never gained currency in English and is not even mentioned in the Kazakhstan article (although it should probably be noted in the Name/Etymology section). Doremo (talk) 15:31, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't recall ever even hearing about this idea. I am STILL confused as to why non-English speaking countries try to determine the English language form of their names. --Khajidha (talk) 15:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Exactly. English usage is not determined by academies (like French or Spanish are), let alone by nonce decisions by foreign governments. Doremo (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm just gonna point out that Czechia issue in the lead was already discussed on this talkpage here and consensus was met and I see no reason to discuss it again since it is from April of this year. Itsyoungrapper (talk) 21:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Almost everyone agrees that it should be mentioned in the lead, though the exact wording is up for debate. It's an unusual situation, and I don't know of any real precedent. The lead sentence is already long, so I'm leaning towards keeping it simple and sticking with "also known as".--Mojo Hand (talk) 22:11, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

But until this spring, the use of the name Czechia was discouraged from by the regime of said land. What happened this spring, was just that the regime decided to lift that discouragement and letting English speaking people say Czechia if they want to even in official circumstances. So Czechia did try to decide over this usage in English, but don't do it anymore. /Hum Hum 07:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

English speakers have no interest in (or even awareness of) the Czech government's opinion on how English should be used. It's no more relevant than if Washington issued a decree on how Czechs should use Czech. Doremo (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

for some reason wikipedians don't like the word "Czechia". 97.127.101.92 (talk) 20:43, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Have you bothered to read any of the comments on this page? Wikipedia doesn't care if the country calls itself Czechia, the Czech Republic or even Czechistan. Our only issue is what name the English-speaking world (primarily the media) uses for the country. If the English-speaking world calls it Czechia, so will we; if the English-speaking world calls it Czechistan, so will we.--Mojo Hand (talk) 21:01, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

can you tell me why my edit on the dominican republic article was change twice? I pointed out that Czechia adopted a short form name it got changed back twice 97.127.101.92 (talk) 21:04, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I didn't make the change, but I suspect its for the same reason that this article name hasn't been changed. The "Czech Republic" is currently the common name for the country in the English-speaking world, the Czech governments preference notwithstanding.--Mojo Hand (talk) 21:51, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Also, the web site they use as support for that statement doesn't use Czechia. The site doesn't actually count up the countries with names like that, it seems like the whole sentence could be removed as original research. --Khajidha (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I was on the verge of removing it myself, so well done. It's not only OR, it's poor OR. If United Arab Emirates is included, why not United Kingdom and United States?  — Amakuru (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Also known as Czechia

What will it take to change the name of this article? "Also known as Czechia" is quite alright for the time being, but how long will it take for a potential change to come through so that everyone here is OK with a change of the article title? The 2016 Summer Olympics is comming up, I for one will try to look out to see if the Czech team calls itself Czechia at the opening ceremony on 5 August, where the countries always carry their flag and a name plaque. /Hum Hum 07:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hum Hum (talk • contribs)

It will take English speakers and writers actually using the name Czechia more than Czech Republic, that's all. In the meantime, it looks like this. Doremo (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

That's interesting. Thanks! When changing to a date closer to now, the lines look slightly different: 1980-2008. It looks like you can't set a date later than 2008. /Hum Hum 11:28, 27 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hum Hum (talk • contribs)

It takes a consensus of Wikipedia editors in a move discussion. In the last move discussion, the name change failed to achieve consensus with many contributors concerned that Czechia was not yet the common name for the country in English. Convincing people that the new name has become the common name would usually requires evidence of actual use in English language sources. The most convincing evidence is often statistical comparisons of a form that allow one to compare how often "Czechia" is being used relative to "Czech Republic". For perspective, Wikipedia recently moved "Burma" to Myanmar about 15 years after the (controversial) ruling government declared that "Myanmar" was now the official name of the country. Sometimes these things can take a while, though I doubt Czechia will be as controversial as Myanmar. In that case whole articles were written about the geopolitics and history of the Myanmar naming dispute. Dragons flight (talk) 22:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but in the matter of Burma vs Myanmar, the name change was made by a government which internationally was considered illegal and Burma is still today probably more used than Myanmar as a name anyway, so I don't know if that's a good comparission. Hum Hum (talk) 08:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the consensus was that Myanmar is now more common, hence the name change. Dragons flight (talk) 09:23, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I suppose it depends which data one looks at, but it's a good comparison. "Myanmar" obviously has a decent claim to statistical legitimacy, whereas "Czechia" is still a flatliner. Doremo (talk) 10:13, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

How long, so everyone here is OK with a change of the article title? Even many Czechs find single word name for their (our) country controversial...Pavlor (talk) 09:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

There might be a change eventually, if this new name really takes off in reliable English sources, but we're really a very long way from that. As already said, we stuck with Burma for years because that was still the common name, but finally it became clear that English RS really had moved to Myanmar.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Current text "also known as Czechia" is OK (for now) no renaming needed. Measuring of English usage will be interesting or how to do it (occurences in last year? Ten years...?) but now it is not the time. I don't believe Czechia will be seen anywhere in Olympics, change was too recent and it hasn't been promoted at all. On the other hand CIA noticed :The World Factbook :) and so did [US Departement of State]. CZechia may not be the first option to pick, Czech Republic wins, but Czechia has its place in the article as official short version. Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Use of the short form in the article

Given all the talk above, is it appropriate for the short term to be used except in the lead and etymology sections? I think there about five other examples in the article. Farleysmaster (talk) 22:29, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, I've cleaned up the inappropriate usages. Doremo (talk) 03:09, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2016

"srtistic" should be "artistic"

"wthout" should be "without"

(both in the "Film" section)

Choroba (talk) 09:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done  — Amakuru (talk) 09:51, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Media about the possible future of Czechia's name

http://www.radio.cz/en/section/one-on-one/bureaucrats-holding-czechia-back-but-name-will-catch-on-says-professor-petr-pavlinek

>>The government began taking fresh steps to promote the use of “Czechia” in April this year. How do you view the progress since then regarding the use of “Czechia”?

“There has been important progress. First of all, on May 2 the government formally approved ‘Czechia’ as the short name, the geographic name for the Czech Republic.

“Then the United Nations was officially notified by the Czech government about the use of the short name.

“And on July 5 it was included in the official UN database of geographic names as the short name for the Czech Republic.”

But is it being used more? I’m not talking about formal steps, I’m asking about the actual usage of “Czechia”.

“Actually, it has been used more by others than by the Czechs.

“For example, the American State Department now has ‘Czechia’ on its website.

“Also the influential CIA World Factbook included ‘Czechia’.

“But the Czechs themselves have been hesitant to use it. They are making a number of excuses as to why not to use it.<<

Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 02:23, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

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Czechia, once more, again

According to this article in The Independent, and UK government document, the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names is recommending standardising on Czechia. Scarabocchio (talk) 12:14, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Wait and see if this has any affect on general usage. So far the articles I am seeing are mostly (as in the VAST majority) specifically arguing for or against the use of Czechia or are from the English language press of a non-English speaking country (ie Ukraine Today) or are exceedingly minor sources (Carbon Pulse is not likely to have much affect on general usage). --Khajidha (talk) 12:44, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

True. The Czech Embassy in London [2] and the London Czech Centre [3] are both using 'Czech Republic'. Scarabocchio (talk) 13:07, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Agreeing with Khajidha: it's only worth a footnote until this changes. Doremo (talk) 13:13, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Uhm, Doremo, you forgot several things. First of all, the graph doesn't go further than 2008, meaning it's automatically outdated. Second of all, you didn't use the right syntax. See here (it needs quotation marks). Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Your syntax returns an error when you click on the link and it contains "year_end=2008". Doremo (talk) 17:47, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Synthesizing some of my previous comments on this: I do NOT see news stories with actual bylines in Czechia. There are no "President of Czechia announces....", "Economy of Czechia experiences....", "Take your next vacation in Czechia", etc type stories. The word is not being used, it is being explained and lobbied for. Don't TELL us to change, SHOW us the change. --Khajidha (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2016

Czech Republic should be primarily known as 'Czechia', according to Government advisors on the proper naming of geographical places and features outside the UK. The Permanent Committee on Geographical Names (PCGN) advised all english to start using the new term. Czechia leaders released a statement saying “it is recommended to use a one-word name in foreign languages if it is not necessary to use the formal name of the country”. One does not use 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' as the full name for the 'United Kingdom', so the naming convention of 'Czechia' should also be observed and respected.

193.55.52.1 (talk) 04:05, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

The fact remains that Czechia is very uncommon in English, IF that changes we will change. Until then, no. --Khajidha (talk) 04:18, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. See page 15 of The European Culture Area: A Systematic Geography (2008): "Increasingly one hears the short form Czechia. Even though that name is not as widely known as other truncations (e.g., Slovakia for the Slovak Republic), we have decided to use Czechia for consistency and to reflect its growing use in the country itself." Bataaf van Oranje (Prinsgezinde) (talk) 17:45, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

How is usage in the country itself relevant to usage in the Anglophone world? --Khajidha (talk) 19:09, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

If the "Anglophone world" should be represented by some hypothetic not very educated farmer (or journalist) somewhere (nothing against him, nobody can be omniscient!), who didn't noticed dissolution of Czechoslovakia and never did know their parts, then we can suppose wrongly that the "Anglophone world" is a bit delayed towards reality. Should be Wikipedia also? When I see edit wars about Czech Republic (disambiguation), which tenaciously mentions several randomly selected eras of Czechoslovak Republic as "other meanings" of the Czech Republic, I have a suspicion that Wikipedia is intended for dyslectics or ignorants who are able to confuse Czechia with Chechnya, Slovakia with Slovenia, Latvia with Lietuva and Austria with Australia, and always ignored geographical name of Czechia, known and used from the 17th century when nobody supposed the future republicanism or specific republics. Wikipedia should be not a promoter of unsuccessful ideas, but also not a flywheel which should support ignorant people in their obtuseness, backwardness and lack of education. Wikipedia should bring accurate and updated information to the reader who can not know them yet. It's a dilemma. Should be prevalent "common use" (or even "common ignorance") preferred over official, authoritative or updated sources? How much? --ŠJů (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I find it ironic that you are attempting to lecture as to proper English usage......--Khajidha (talk) 14:36, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not very good at English but I'm quite sure that Czechoslovakia is not a meaning of the words "Czech Republic". The described dilemma is not just about English usage but about the role of Wikipedia generally. What should be preferred – the more correct (or the more consistent), or the more common? We need balance it. Of course, the common usage is always belated toward the current reality. --ŠJů (talk) 01:18, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Khajidha, I don't see how can mockery of knowledge of English be argument in: Why "Czech Republic (disambiguation)" contains links and terms which do not contain exact phrase "Czech Republic" in their article name. ŠJů apparently thinks that the disambiguation may contain only pages "Czech Republic (****)", not some randomly chosen articles "Czech****Republic****" (like Czechoslovak Socialist Republic). The argument can be "It does not matter, the disambiguation page can contain any links which may sound similar or are historically connected."

Czechia - it is OK that Wikipedia uses "Czech Republic" as "common name". But it should not be silenced that "Czechia" is official short name as proven by UN, CIA and ISO sources. Wikipedia cannot choose to ignore that fact in articles describing the name(s) of the country (and now it does not ignore but it was a struggle), in other articles it is understandable to use "common name". Chrzwzcz (talk) 08:04, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Read this article's lede and the full article dedicated to this topic. Nobody has "silenced" anything. Doremo (talk) 08:47, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

As I wrote: now it does not ignore but it was a struggle. Chrzwzcz (talk) 08:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Response to comment to me: I made such arguments several times in the edit summaries when I reverted ŠJů's changes. My point is that if you are going to make the judgement that the common English language usage is "wrong", you need to make sure that your own English usage is as right as possible.

Response to comment about Czechia: As long as I've been coming to this page it has included information about Czechia being a (little-used) short form name for the Czech Republic. This has never been denied or hidden. No, it was not formerly mentioned in the lead for the simple reason that the usage of the word in English is extremely rare. Misspellings were shown to have greater usage in ngrams previously provided. Calling attention to this word in the lead was therefore not reasonable. The recent pronouncements by the Czech government have given it enough currency to be mentioned in the lead, but it is still rare to see actual usage in English texts. Compare the number of "Czechia experiences record economic growth" type articles to the number of articles that basically say "You can use Czechia now, guys". It is still being lobbied for and explained much more than it is being used. --Khajidha (talk) 12:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Well it is included in official databases, so the lead should contain both official names short and long. Other countries are in the opposite situation - official long names are rarely known and used, but they do have their place in the lead nevertheless. I do agree that Czechia is now used mainly in news about the "renaming". But was it really expected that "new" word would be used all of a sudden, yesterday 0 %, tomorrow 100 %?! Did you think that in three months period you'd hear only about Czechia, no more Czech Republic? It takes time for huge country, it takes more time for a small country which is not in the news every day, and it takes ages for a small country which does not do anything for new name promotion (anything visible... yet, you know to make new manuals, promo materials, jerseys, blahblahblah :)). I agree that Czech Republic must identify as Czechia if it wants to be called that way. Chrzwzcz (talk) 13:44, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Why haven't they changed their nameplate at the UN? Surely that could have been done at the same time that they registered the short name with various UN agencies. I actually expected exactly the result we've gotten: no change. Most of the news agencies that reported on this have failed to follow through in their own usage, so why would anyone else change? --Khajidha (talk) 14:18, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Most of the agencies only reported the bombastic message "country will rename itself". Then it was clear it is not the case and they are waiting for country to do something, because both names are correct long and short and they are not really forced to change anything. Permanent Committee on Geographical Names (PCGN) advised all Britons to start using the new term, maybe UK will fight it for Czechia (or is it Czech diplomatic success)? Maybe DB entry is preliminary move, I agree that it could go faster, but it is politics and it is slooooooow. I don't know anything about UN nameplates, if they have to be the same as short name in UN DB, how often do they make them, if country must ask for them, or if it is such a deal. Idea was to promote it mostly through sport because it makes most positive news about CZ. Chrzwzcz (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Abbreviations listed in lede (CR)

It should be noted that CR is the official abbreviation of Costa Rica, only CZ is correct. The source cited is questionable. The CR abbreviation listed is only used in Czech, with a caron, not in English. This may cause quite a bit of confusion...perhaps the abbreviation information should be moved somewhere else and a special note included? What is the point of including it in the lede? The lede was already long before, now it's just ridiculous. A Nebraska Cornhusker (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. CR is the official abbreviation of Costa Rica not the Czech Republic. CZ should not be listed BEFORE the short name Czechia, which is now included in the official UN databases of country names: UNTERM and UNGEGN (http://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/geonames/ and https://unterm.un.org/UNTERM/search?urlQuery=CZECHIA). This edit needs to be removed or at least moved in the case of CZ. The lede was already too long. Also CZE is used as the abbreviation for the country. The lede should be protected against this kind of arbitrary changes. Does Wikipedia normally list official abbreviations of other countries in their ledes and before their short names? Of course not.Geog25 (talk) 20:20, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

I deleted the abbreviation from the lead because I don't think it somehow helps and makes the article better, in Wikipedia article on Germany, for example you also don't have an abbreviation GER. Itsyoungrapper (talk) 20:51, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

We should not confuse international codes of countries with abbrevations of states, even though they can be similar or identic. For example, CS was a stable abbrevation of Czechoslovakia, but CSR or CSSR or CSFR abbrevations of the specific Czechoslovak states. Beside it, the international code is not necessarily a usual abbreviation. E.g. the code of Ukraine is UA (because UK is "usurped" by the United Kingdom, the origin of the "A" is disputable - in the Czech context, UK is also sometimes interpreted as Ukraine, "úkáčko" is a common slang name for Ukraine people). CZ is used as an apolitical code for the country, while CR is a specific abbrevations of the current state regime and a literal translation of the official Czech abbrevation ČR. Of course, the unambiguous code should be preferred, but the alternative abbrevation can be also mentioned. If Czechia (Czech 2+1/10 lands) would change back to the monarchy (or to anarchy or to declared dictature or protectorate), it can remain CZ (Czechia) but not CR (Czech Republic). --ŠJů (talk) 12:54, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Abbreviations and letter codes for countries are different in different circumstances. There is no need for a note about an abbreviation in the lede to this article, unless it is commonly used even in speech. Hum Hum (talk) 10:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Motto

The motto "Pravda vítězí" (veritas vincit, truth prevails) is on the presidential flag. Isn't it rather a presidential motto than the national motto? Is there any relevant source which mentioned it as an official national motto? Yes, it has some pattern in Hussite motto "Veritas Dei vincit", is sometimes cited on Czech WWI memorials etc., but not officialy declared as national (state) motto IMHO. --ŠJů (talk) 12:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, as I understand it, it is the motto of the office of the president, not the motto of the country. Hum Hum (talk) 10:02, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe

It was decided to move discussion from List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe here. So: column English short and formal names [19][20][21] where links are official documents with Czechia present, why it is not allowed to include Czechia in this column. Answer(?): Column name says English short and formal names but in fact it means English common (not necessarily official) and official formal names, as proven by names like "United Kingdom", or (in similar articles) "United States", "North Korea", which are not at all official (UN, ISO), but damn common. Therefore there's no place for Czechia, it is neither common short nor official formal long. But why it has to be twice repeated "Czech Republic" (once with the "the") and why a note "Czechia is official short" and link to "Name of Czech Republic" is not allowed...? IMHO it makes no difference, it won't help Czechia a bit if Czechia is included in that article (at least as a note), but also it is not promoting, why trying to eliminate it when it kind of is article about country names from official documents and common names. Chrzwzcz (talk) 16:56, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I would list Czechia, but with a footnote that it is rare and may not be understood/may be misunderstood. --Khajidha (talk) 18:06, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Twice Czech Republic - no other state has twice the same line. Yeah, I added small note "A simpler official short-form name has been encouraged by the Czech government: the English variant Czechia remains uncommon, but variants in Czech (Česko) and some other languages are more popular. See Name of the Czech Republic." which was copied from similar article. It may need some update (not only government idea, now official) but was deleted. Chrzwzcz (talk) 18:12, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

The point was not that the discussion of what goes on that article should take place here. That's outside all Wikipedia norms. It was that that article - and every other article that refers to the the Czech Republic or any other country on the list - should be using the name of the article as its primary reference to the state in question. That way, we avoid having the exact same discussion with the exact same arguments separately on thousands and thousands of different articles individually. There will be exceptions per WP:COMMONSENSE and project consensus, but neither applies here.

The contents of the article List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe are decided at Talk:List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe. The decision made there was not to move the discussion here, it was that we should use the title of this article to refer to the state. If consensus here is to move this article is "Czechia", then that article - and the vast majority of other articles - should change to use "Czechia". But while this article is entitled "Czech Republic", we should also refer to the "Czech Republic" as the standard English name of this country. Kahastok talk 20:30, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

OK, consider this as an invitation then. "article that refers to the the Czech Republic or any other country on the list - should be using the name of the article as its primary reference to the state in question" - it is a little bit strict to use only one of possible names and unify all occurrences on one term, but OK. But you can't really rename things that do have "Czechia" in their name or rewrite cited documentation to contain the one and only unifying term. Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:08, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

You're overcomplicating this.

Obviously, if an organisation has a WP:COMMONNAME that includes the word "Czechia" then we'll use the correct name of the organisation. Obviously if we're taking a direct quote from a source we'll respect the quote (though there is no need not to apply our own standards to our own writing). We don't jettison common sense.

But it would be totally crazy to insist on having exactly the same discussion over and over and over again on article after article after article after article after article after article after article and thousands more, when the arguments are identical in each case because there's no reason why it should be different on this article to what it was on that one. That's the alternative. And it's not like this is a novelty. It works perfectly well with the vast majority of other articles. There's no reason it can't work with this one. Kahastok talk 21:39, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Either it is the same discussion as before and it was correct to jump with discussion here, or "List of" is an exception to be discussed there. I don't want a discussion about common name, it is solved over and over again. I accept that in vast majority of articles "Czech Republic" will be the used as first choice. (IMHO on this page there is an agreement that) mention about "Czechia" is totally acceptable (or welcomed maybe?) in articles where the name of the country is discussed. "List of sovereign..." looks like the kind of article (names names names), it does have a few notes about other countries and their specialties, it roughly looks like copy of official UN database table, so Czechia can be included as small (meaningless) note :) Is it important to include it? Not really. Is it necessary to delete it then? IMHO no reason. Chrzwzcz (talk) 21:58, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I support a move to Czechia. Others have noted good reasons. Frenchmalawi (talk) 15:29, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Me too. The risk of being misunderstood is miniscule. Hum Hum (talk) 10:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

You must have read arguments I haven't seen, then. All I've seen are variations of 1) it's official and 2) it's like other countries. Neither of which are relevant. All that matters is common English usage. About the only time I see the word Czechia used in English is when someone is arguing that it should be used in English. --Khajidha (talk) 11:18, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

other page that needs to be "corrected"

• History of the Czech lands should be History of the Czech Republic, we can't allow alternative names to be used — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.127.72.186 (talk) 01:48, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

No, because most of the history is from before the present state was founded and as far as I know, the terms are not exactly interchangable. Hum Hum (talk) 09:59, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

It should be moved to History of Czechia. Frenchmalawi (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

It will be moved to History of Czechia if you can show that Czechia is actually commonly used and not just lobbied for. --Khajidha (talk) 21:24, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense to me. As has been said. Czech Republic has been around all of only 23 years. The article question is not a history of its territory. It is much more than that. It is a history of the lands known as Czechia over generations. Frenchmalawi (talk) 13:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

And the United States has only existed since 1776, but the U.S. history course I took in high school covered events all the way back to the Bering ice bridge. --Khajidha (talk) 14:20, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved per WP:SNOW. No indication of this talk discussion resulting in anything except "not moved". (non-admin closure). Anarchyte (work | talk) 06:39, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

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Czech Republic → Czechia – Natural, common name, concise. Foreign governments, such as Cia of America, have begun using the name. If it weren't clear enough. "Czechia: English speakers told to use new name for Czech Republic." Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 01:11, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. If it weren't clear enough, one could read the talk archives, more than half of which consist of reasons not to make this move. A one-line, no-content move rationale with one source shouldn't even be a reason to avoid speedily closing this move request, never mind actually supporting a move. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 01:51, 21 October 2016 (UTC) N.B. I graciously acknowledge that this was changed to a two-line rationale with two sources after I posted the preceding. It is still no reason to move the article. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 02:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move. Six months later, the status quo from the last RM has not changed. The common name in English, at this moment, is still Czech Republic.  ONR  (talk)  02:27, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose for reasons stated above. Doremo (talk) 02:40, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

'Nobody calls it Czechia'

Here's an interesting article from a WP:RS on the failure of the name "Czechia" to enter popular usage, and its unpopularity even within the Czech Republic:

Tait, Robert (25 October 2016). "'Nobody calls it Czechia': Czech Republic's new name fails to catch on". The Guardian. Retrieved 2016-10-26.

-- The Anome (talk) 07:28, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

This reminds me of the failed name change of "Kazakhstan" to "Kazakstan" (here and here). That, the failure of Czechia, and other failures (like Estonia to Estland; here) could be a basis for an article on county name failures. Doremo (talk) 09:44, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

No wonder that it's unpopolar in Czechia. After all, a lot of people here really hate the term "Česko". --Silesianus (talk) 10:46, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

To ask three people on the square and look through two twitter accounts (which understandably use formal name) and make an article about it. Journalism at its best! Real RS :) It is official only 3 months, it was approved 5 months ago and "discussed to be approved" 6 months ago. Czech Republic does not have big media coverage so it is much harder (bad timing with Olympics didn't help, it was too late to change the jerseys). We will see in a year... possibly the same because government officials are very lazy with the use of what they agreed on. But to sum up: 3-6 months is very soon to tell. So your quick judgement "failure" is off. Usage between Czechs - well they speak Czech, so... we'll see after/if sport will use it :) You as Wikipedia would not admit after 3-6 months "it catched on, let's change the title", so don't tell "it failed and it cannot be saved, it is done" :) Chrzwzcz (talk) 19:32, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

I know at least one Czech guy who likes the name Czechia and always uses it in English when referring to his home country. So the statement that 'nobody' calls it so is wrong. Hum Hum (talk) 07:53, 8 November 2016 (UTC)