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February 9

History of women librarians

How long have women been allowed to be librarians in the united states? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8C2:180:7840:3D9B:AD6:73BD:4F64 (talk) 06:30, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What is the source for your premise that they were ever not allowed? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:01, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, you could read Timeline of women in library science and List of female librarians. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See also A History of US Public Libraries - A Profession for Women: "Men from New England’s elite families were the predominant players in the early US library movement... Along with these men, a number of women from the elite classes volunteered at libraries, particularly for work with children. It was not until after 1900 that women would dominate the operational work of libraries". Alansplodge (talk) 11:35, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some census related statistics at Librarians in the United States from 1880-2009.

The Tender Technicians: The Feminization of Public Librarianship, 1876-1905. In the preview it says; "In 1852 the first woman clerk was hired at the Boston Public Library". One of the nice people at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request may be able to get you the whole article, or your local library might have a JSTOR account.

And finally; Reclaiming the American Library Past: Writing the Women in by Suzanne Hildenbrand has a Google Books preview, and again, your local library may be able to help. Alansplodge (talk) 11:54, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Russian occupation of Crimea depicted on Wikipedia maps

I was very surprised to see that our map for Udmurtia depicts Crimea as part of the Russian Federation. (The map used for the Russian Federation depicts Crimea as 'disputed' which, while disappointing Ukrainian loyalists, is probably the best method.)

Where does this map come from and what approach can I take to change it to reflect international recognition of the status of Ukraine? I have mentioned the issue on the Udmurtia talk page [which I don't know how to link to here] but I think the problem is (and the solution will be) more general. Hayttom (talk) 12:06, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The map comes from Wikimedia Commons at commons:File:Map of Russia - Udmurtia.svg. This map has a tag stating: "The boundaries on this map show the de facto situation and do not imply any endorsement or acceptance".

I'm not sure what the Commons policy is on this, but if you wish to take this further, I suggest that you start Commons:Village pump where they will (hopefully) know what's what. Alansplodge (talk) 12:12, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alansplodge; I have started Commons:Village_pump#Map_of_Russia and I hope to influence a change. Hayttom (talk) 12:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Or... Simply find a different map (one you think is better). Then go to the Udmurtia article's talk page and discuss swapping. Blueboar (talk) 13:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Blueboar, I hadn't thought of that, thanks. GIS is my work so I could make one, but do you know about templates for the Wikipedia style maps? (If you don't, I'll dig around.)::Hayttom (talk) 13:56, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The obvious question here is whether Wikipedia (and Wikimedia Commons) has an established policy as to whether or not maps should show de facto boundaries. I find it hard to believe that there isn't a policy, but I would not know where to look. So that's a Reference ~~Deck~~ Desk question: If there is such a policy, where is it? --142.112.159.101 (talk) 14:02, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, that's the main thing to solve.Hayttom (talk) 14:06, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There should be no problem putting multiple maps on Commons. Commons just hosts files without much editorial selection. For which one(s) to use in the article, I'd start on the article talk page. I wouldn't chase after Wikipedia-wide uniformity until reasonable consensus develops in particular articles. I.e. go from the specific to the general rather than the other way around. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The US won't go to war over Crimea, so the sad truth is that Crimea is now part of Russian Federation. We cannot change that and sanctions won't change that. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's so sad about it? Personally, I find it delightful. Ghirla^-трёп- 18:11, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But if there is a Wikipedia policy, where is it? --142.112.159.101 (talk) 20:37, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

142.112.159.101 -- The Commons policy is that if there's a genuine legitimate dispute, then Commons will host image files reflecting both views, and it's up to the various language Wikipedias to decide which images they want to use... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Commons is not part of Wikipedia (it is a resource that Wikipedia uses) and it has its own policies that are separate from Wikipedia's. Wikipedia policy about what map to use would probably be in some sub-fiefdom of WP:MOS, but that place is crazy and I would stay away from it as much as possible. Just do something reasonable and hope they don't notice. For something potentially controversial, ask on the article talk page first, either for what the best thing to do is, or else just proposing to do XYZ. Then if no one objects within a day or so, make the edit. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 23:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We really don't, or at least WP:WPMAP doesn't, we've left it to individual article editors to decide what's best for that article. In practice it seems like we lean towards going with the de facto borders when there is a dispute. Kmusser (talk) 14:53, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lloyd George on Mr Jones

Our article on Gareth Jones (the subject of the film Mr. Jones) has the comment from David Lloyd George that "That part of the world is a cauldron of conflicting intrigue and one or other interests concerned probably knew that Mr Gareth Jones knew too much of what was going on. He had a passion for finding out what was happening in foreign lands wherever there was trouble, and in pursuit of his investigations he shrank from no risk. I had always been afraid that he would take one risk too many. Nothing escaped his observation, and he allowed no obstacle to turn from his course when he thought that there was some fact, which he could obtain. He had the almost unfailing knack of getting at things that mattered". I would like to pin down the original source of LlG's words. Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 23:22, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to a website dedicated to Gareth Jones, these words were reported by the London Evening Standard, quoting Lloyd George, 26th August 1935. --Lambiam 10:29, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've asked at WP:RX for the article - would be helpful to know if it was an article by Lloyd George, an interview with him, a letter from him, etc. DuncanHill (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

US and UK titles of Ripley's books

Look at the list at Ripley's Believe It or Not Annual. The 15th and 16th books have different titles in the US and UK. (Before labelling anything in the article with a {{fact}} template, please do Google searches on both the US and UK titles of these books and you'll see that both titles are mentioned by the appropriate sources. The only difference in general is that US editions of these books are not given a year in their title but UK editions are.) Yet, I can't find any online pages talking about the REASON the US and UK titles are different. Georgia guy (talk) 23:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the publishing industry, the publisher chooses the title, not the author. In this case, there are two publishers and they both can choose different titles. Cf. Catch-22, the original published title (in a magazine) was Catch-18 and the book needed to be rewritten because the title was changed by the publisher.
Sleigh (talk) 09:20, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, Guinness World Records used to be published in the UK as The Guinness Book of Records and in the USA as The Guinness Book of World Records. Alansplodge (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 10

A well-respected naval surgeon, sentenced to hang for homosexuality

In Coughlan, Sean. "The 200-year-old diary that's rewriting gay history". BBC News. Retrieved 10 February 2020. we read of "a big sex scandal of the day [the reign of George III] - in which a well-respected naval surgeon had been found to be engaging in homosexual acts", and that "A court martial had ordered him to be hanged". Who was that well-respected man, and did he escape the noose? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This may be a good start for your research. --Jayron 32 13:34, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - was just coming here to say I'd had an answer from elsewhere, James Nehemiah Taylor was the well-respected man, see this, which gives a lot more detail. He was hanged, poor sod. DuncanHill (talk) 14:12, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting choice of words there. Matt Deres (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well one word, anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:25, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Friend and foe alike agreed that he was hung. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:06, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

thaumaturgy

Are there some interesting examples of thaumaturgy in real life or fiction? Not saying it necessarily works in the real life case, but only that it's supposed to work according to the performer. Exorcism and voodoo might be real examples, and the book/movie The Exorcist a fictional one. But for fiction I'm preferably looking for something more like D&D clerics casting spells to resurrect dead people, smite their opponents with lightning bolts, and stuff like that. It is ok if this comes from the fantasy genre since I don't know where else to find it. But I'd say e.g. Raiders of the Lost Ark doesn't count, since the supernatural power was in the artifact rather than being invoked by a person performing a spell or ritual. "Magic" a la Harry Potter (that doesn't come from a deity) doesn't count at all. I'm looking for divine magic. Thanks. Added: Dracula might count since he is driven away by crucifixes and killed (if that's the word) with a wooden stake. 73.93.153.166 (talk) 21:31, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Faith healers... AnonMoos (talk) 22:04, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Your definition of thaumaturgy is going well beyond what the word is typically used to mean.

In the more traditional sense of "miracle," the Bible and the Golden Legend features plenty of stories, and we have articles on the Miracles of Gautama Buddha, the Miracles of Jesus, and the Miracles of Muhammad. Some are flashier than others. Technically, Gautama's doesn't come from a deity but in some editions of D&D would still be considered divine magic because devotion to a higher ideal was involved or something (and not just because the psionics rules either haven't been written or they're buggy or because D&D generally fucks up its own artificial divisions between arcane, divine, and psionic magic and can't even begin to handle the even blurrier borders in real-world folklore).

A lot of Grimoires actually say they'll only work if the practitioner is a devout follower of a particular religion (e.g. the Arbatel de magia veterum requires the practitioner to be Christian, while the the Shams al-Ma'arif assumes they could only be Muslim). Buuuuutt-- A lot of books like this, such as the Sefer Raziel HaMalakh, magicians of related religions would just downplay which religion, or straight up replace that religion with their own. Nevertheless, it was not until the 19th century that you had anyone actually practicing these things while claiming that you could do them without being religious. Now, yes, mainstream religious authorities were generally negative, but not always.

Natural magic (which is where the fantasy genre gets its quasi-scientific arcane magic from) similarly claimed that its ultimate origin was from God, even if it works for everyone. See for example the writings of Albertus Magnus. In effect, these are trial miracles that God is willing to let anyone try just to let people know what a nice fellow He is (compare with the Benjamin Franklin quote "Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, and which incorporates itself with the grapes to be changed into wine; a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy!").

Also, Dracula wasn't killed by a wooden stake, he (the fictional vampire) was held in place with a Bowie knife to the chest while being decapitated with a kukri. However, Dracula being driven away by the power of the cross is why D&D clerics can turn undead away with their holy symbols. Ian.thomson (talk) 22:57, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, thanks, I wasn't really familiar with the words thaumaturgy or theurgy before. I found them while trying to find the terms for the kind of magic D&D clerics do. Ritual magic also seems apropos. Your other points are informative too, and Anonmoos's faith healers were well spotted. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 02:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, Raymond E. Feist's The Riftwar Cycle (which was based on his D&D game with his friends) did call divine magic "theurgy" and arcane magic "thaumaturgy."

The first edition AD&D player's handbook says "All clerics have their own spells, bestowed upon them by their deity for correct and diligent prayers and deeds" (page 20). Miracle would be a good word, though that's also the name of a specific in some editions. However, thaumaturgy does mean "miracle working." Meanwhile, the same Player's Handbook uses both "theurgist" and "thaumaturgist" as level-based titles for magic-users (i.e. wizards). (Gygax was pretty clearly going through the thesaurus and just using any word for spellcasters in there).

Before I wrote this, I was feeling pretty sure that Gygax's knee-jerk reaction would have been that Ritual magic (along with the grimoires I mentioned) belongs to arcane magic, as everything I could remember from the first two editions (and the early chunk of the third) that resembled ritual magic was well outside of the divine locus. That said, the Aerial Servant cleric spell actually does require the caster to create a magic circle against evil (including a pentagram and triangle) or else be killed by the Aerial Servant, which suggests that someone at TSR either read the Key of Solomon or else a fantasy book that drew upon the KoS for some important magical scene. Later on, Wizards of the Coast authors have added rules for rituals that are divine, though these are more in line with rituals in general, not ceremonial magic specifically.

You might want to check our article on the Sources and influences on the development of Dungeons & Dragons. According to this, a number of spells were also inspired by effects in Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions (like a ton of other elements). Ian.thomson (talk) 10:39, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For a historical treatment of the belief, also see Marc Bloch's Rois et Thaumaturges (trans. 1973 as The Royal Touch: Monarchy and Miracles in France and England ). ——SN 54129 10:59, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The_Golden_Bough might be worth a look too. (I don't think modern scholarship supports all its hypotheses, but that's not necessarily a problem for this question). It's a long time since I've read it, but I think it notes a distinction between "religion" (what would be considered divine magic in D&D), based on the idea that the world is ruled or inhabited by gods and spirits that can be persuaded/entreated/tricked/forced to perform miracles for you, and "magic" (what would be considered arcane magic in D&D, and could be considered a primitive attempt at science), based on the idea that the world works according to certain rules, and if you know those rules you can predict or influence events. Iapetus (talk) 12:11, 11 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 12

General idea of an old work attracting today's audience

I'm looking for an article about general concept for how well a work of any medium—be it a classic, a masterpiece, a generic piece, or a forgotten and overlooked piece—can hold up over the years, despite specific period settings of respective works, and may still attract mass audience... or specific demographics (maybe a niche?). I'm not asking for specific works; just the general idea/concept. George Ho (talk) 05:19, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Staying Power didn't help much. Maybe google has something better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:38, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Timeless classic maybe? https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/timeless 41.165.67.114 (talk) 07:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the concept of canonization. Good luck! Almostds (talk) 12:51, 12 February 2020 (UTC) (I'm a librarian from Toronto Public Library)[reply]

The test of time. 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:7AC0 (talk) 14:01, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nostalgia. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:47, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above are all terms related to timeless value, but the questioner seeks to find an article discussing the concept. Why do the plays of Shakespeare keep attracting audiences while those by Marlowe are largely forgotten? Why are people today still moved by the songs of Dowland? Surely there must be some articles or books that address such questions? --Lambiam 21:34, 12 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There's a little bit about this in Classic book but not much. Some of the references there may cover it. --ColinFine (talk) 18:37, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 13

Station Squabble

Could you please help me improve this article before some mean people decide to delete it? Thank you :) Ericdec85 (talk) 14:23, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion it is not worth an article of its own. I would not stand in the way of anyone who proposed to delete it. --Viennese Waltz 14:28, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ericdec85 -- it doesn't seem that this has the fame of Crasher squirrel yet... AnonMoos (talk) 14:56, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should start from the top down. That is, there are redlinks for both the photographer and the award. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I notice the award is now bluelinked, and to quite a substantial article. I also notice that of the 35 winners up to 2019, 10 are bluelinked (though none of the winning photographs are.

This suggests to me that the photographer might merit an article if sufficient sources can be found, and perhaps winning the award might itself constitute notability, but that the photo itself probably doesn't at the moment, though its article could be folded in to one on the photographer. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.58.107 (talk) 18:50, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On further investigation, I now see that the "Wildlife Photographer of the Year LUMIX People’s Choice Award" [my italics] won by the photograph is only one of 20-odd sub-categories of the Wildlife Photographer of the Year Award: the winners' numbers I gave above are those for the single annual Overall Winner (which has not yet been announced for 2020 – Station Squabble could still potentially win it too). This might be seen to weaken the case for retention and for the notability of the photographer. On the other paw, there is a new article about the photo, photographer and award on the BBC News website today – here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.58.107 (talk) 08:54, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone inspired to start a Sam Rowley (wildlife photographer) article, here are two snippets. (1) Apparently, he could already be called an "award-winning photograpger" at age 15. (2) He studied biology at the University of Bristol. This info can also be found on his website, but it is good to have independent confirmation. A further mention is here, but it does not seem to contain additional encyclopedic information. --Lambiam 20:04, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A tip for the future: if you're starting with a short article, it's often a good idea to start it as a draft in your userspace. Other people can edit it along with you at leisure. Then when you think it's ready, you can "publish" it by moving the page to the article namespace. I'm slightly surprised no patroller came by to slap a tag on the original version given that it consisted of one sentence and a link. (I'm not saying it's good or bad that you did this. People have different feelings on minimum criteria for articles. But if someone who feels differently comes along and thinks it should be deleted you might wind up in a dispute with them; starting with a draft avoids this.) --47.146.63.87 (talk) 00:43, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 14

Beatty's armchair at Jutland

Our article Viva Seton Montgomerie says of David Beatty "There was a certain armchair which accompanied them everywhere they went, and when the Admiral was leading forth his fleet, en route for his great Battle of Jutland, he discovered that the chair had been left behind. I shall have no luck without it, he said, and the whole fleet had to be drawn up while his talisman was fetched. It was a chair he had looted during his campaign in China and he firmly believed it was haunted by its former owner. Ethel confirmed this, for she told me that she had distinctly seen a Chinese figure sitting in it as she came into the room, and she saw it fade as she drew near". Is there any truth in the story (I mean the bit about Jutland, not the haunting)? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 13:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found "armchair admirals", "armchair critics", "armchair tacticians" and "armchair historians" in relation to Jutland, but sadly nothing about Beatty's Chinese armchair. Alansplodge (talk) 17:16, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can similarly find absolutely nothing about it outside of the Wikipedia article. It seems to be an anecdote only attributed to Montgomerie's own writing, and unconfirmed by any other source I can find. --Jayron 32 17:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

He consulted at times an Edyth du Bois and other fortune tellers[1]. Talisman might not be out of character. No evidence for the ancedote tho.—eric 18:02, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You'd have thought at least one of the five thousand or so men involved might have mentioned it... Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They noticed when he "bowed the knee three times to this sisterly divinity", a pagan practice Wikipedia fails to inform me of. "A GHEALACH UR".—eric 19:46, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be at cross-purposes; I meant the 5,000 members of the 1st Battlecruiser Squadron (but interesting nonetheless).

While researching naval armchairs, I came across the grisly tale of Admiral François-Paul Brueys d'Aigalliers, who after his legs had been blown off in the Battle of the Nile, had himself strapped to an armchair on the deck of his flagship so that he could continue to direct the battle; an arrangement which worked well until he was cut in half by a second cannonball. It wasn't his day. Alansplodge (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Shoot, linked the wrong page: ...known to surprise his staff by by bowing three times to a new moon...[2] and i wondered at the origin of the practice.—eric 03:05, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No idea, but The Book of the Moon (p. 29) has that and many other new moon superstitions. Alansplodge (talk) 10:03, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all, I've not found anything about the chair either, but lots about Beatty being very superstitious. One wonders if the armchair tale gained in the telling, it does seem unlikely that nobody else should have mentioned it in the interminable writings about Jutland. DuncanHill (talk) 15:47, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 15

Afong at Yale

Looking for any contemporary source of the attendance of Chun Chik-yu (Toney Afong or Toney Chun, many variation of name) at Yale University in the 1870s or 1880s. His brother Chun Alung or Chun Lung was also a student under the guardianship of Yung Wing. There is some inconsistencies in the published sources: Dye 2010 (p. 26) say he went to Harvard, but it is not found in the much more researched 1997 book by Dye which gives the narrative of most members of his family including the son who actually went to Harvard Albert Fayerweather Leialoha Afong. For Toney's Yale attendance, we have Teng 2013: "Chen Fang sent two of his sons, Alung and Toney, to study in Hartford under Yung Wing's guardianship, and then at Yale. Another son attended Harvard." [3]. Also Char 1975 [4]. Also [5]. Hence the need for either an alumni book entry or an obituary stating his attendance at Yale or Harvard. KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:25, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

His son Chun Wing Sen Afong was a member of the Yale Class of 1912. His class biography doesn't mention that his father attended Yale, but does mention Chun Lung as a member of the class of 1879. If you know the date of Chun Lung's death, it should be easy to find more in his entry in the Yale Obituary Record. Here's the text (p. 49, History of the Class of 1912 Yale College):

"Chun Wing Sen Afong was born November 7, 1887, in Macao, China.
"His father, Chun Tong Afong, born June 12, 1859 in Honolulu is in the banking, railroad and shipping business in China. Mrs. Afong was Juilien Chang. K. P. Tsais, '12S., S. K. Tsai, '81, and Chun Lung, '79, are Yale relatives.
"Afong prepared for Yale at Hartford Public High School. He was a member of the Corinthian Each Club, the Yale Chinese Students Club and the Cosmopolitcan Club. He roomsd alone throughout his course at 200 York Street, the Hutch, 413 Berkely and 52 Vanderbilt.
"Afong intends to enter the Political Service in China. His permanent mail address is 101 Praya Grande, Macao, China"). 
"('12S indicates that K. P. Tsais attended the Sheffield Scientific School at Yale.) - Nunh-huh 09:39, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Chun Lung died in 1889 and has a brief entry in the Yale Obituary Record:

1879 [indicating he graduated in the class of 1879]

Chun Lung, son of Afong Chun, a wealthy Chinese merchant of Kwantung Province, was born in the town of Kai Sheongsan, in the year 1856. In his infancy his father's business required the removal of his family to the Hawaiian Islands. The son was sent to this country to obtain an education, and was prepared for College in Hartford, Conn.

After graduation he went to China to take charge of his father's interests there, but about 1883 he was recalled to the Hawaiian Islands. He died in Honolulu, of typhoid fever, August, 11, 1889, at the age of 33.

If a brother had attended Yale it would usually be mentioned in the obituary, and the brother also doesn't seem to be among the "Yale relatives" mentioned.-Nunh-huh 09:46, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the Yale Obituary Record of 1925/6, there is Chun Wing Sen Afong, (1887-1924) B.A. 1912 on pp. 206 &ff. The pertinent paragraph of genealogy/Yale relatives: "Father, Chun Chik-yu; former civil governor of Canton; engaged in banking and in railroad and shipping business; son of Wing Ah Fong who lived in Honolulu for some years. Mother, Juilien Chang. Yale relatives: Lung Chun, '79, (uncle) and Shou Kie Tsai, ex-'83, and Kwo Pao Tsai, '12 S." - Nunh-huh 09:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Any indication he went to Harvard? KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:20, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nunh-huh: This source indicate Toney attended Trinity College (Connecticut). Do we have any record that from the institution? Also was "Hartford Public High School" another byname for Trinity College or another institution completely?KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:58, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Though they're both in Hartford, Trinity College and Hartford Public High School don't have any institutional connection. Hartford Public High School was the older of the two, having been founded in 1638. Trinity College was founded in 1823 as "Washington College", and changed its name to Trinity in 1845. - Nunh-huh 22:58, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This reference from the Journal of the Chinese Historical Society of America contains a footnote of interest: "Yale University has Chun Lung’s records, but I have yet to document that Toney went to Harvard. I am relying here on what some descendants were told. Also, Toney is thought by some descendants to have attended Trinity (Hartford) or Yale, but neither college has a record of his attendance." - Nunh-huh 23:02, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Basil

If Thai basil is unavailable, do you think that ordinary basil would work in a SE Asian dish? I.e., yes it would obviously taste different, but would it ruin the dish? ——SN 54129 18:13, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't provide opinions here (yeah, right) -- try it and let your own taste-buds be your guide. 2606:A000:1126:28D:4D5C:8AA9:C63B:2D9B (talk) 18:43, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't want to waste a packet of mince :) ——SN 54129 19:07, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ruin it how? By not tasting like licorice? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:46, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yeah, I guess. If the OP is concerned about that, they could likely sub in a little anise, which is typically widely available in most spice racks. Matt Deres (talk) 20:26, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they could. My point being to reinforce the previous points, that whether something tastes good or not is often a matter of personal likes and dislikes. I, for one, hate the taste of licorice. Even liver is better, and that's not saying much. But plenty of folks like licorice. And some even like liver. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:48, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to our article on Thai basil, in Thai dishes the basil used used in drunken noodles and many chicken, pork, and seafood dishes is holy basil (tulsi); in the West Thai basil may be used instead because it is much more readily available. Does your SE Asian dish fall in these categories? Tulsi is often available in dried form as a herbal tea in specialty stores. This review of a subscription box with a Thai dish reports, "Although I had to substitute basil for Thai basil, the dish was still exquisite." And this recipe for Thai basil pesto states, "Sweet Basil and Thai Basil can easily be substituted for the other if you don’t have the variety called for in the recipe. Because Thai Basil is stronger than Sweet Basil, you may want to increase the amount of basil in your recipe some to intensify the flavor of the dish." Quotes from some other websites with recipes: "Thai basil is obviously the best basil leaf to use for this recipe. However, if necessary, you can also use sweet basil. You may be able to replicate the intensity of the herb by just using more of it than you would use the Thai basil." — "Thai basil is what you should be using in this Thai chicken stir fry recipe. But if it's hard to find the authentic version of Thai basil, you can use ordinary Italian sweet basil (that's what I have used in my video)." – "Q. Would this still taste good with regular basil? A. Sure – I think the dish would still be good, but it will be different. Thai basil is usually a little more sweet, and has a slight anise kick in it. But with the other seasonings in the dish, I’m sure it’ll still taste very similar. :)" I hope this is helpful. --Lambiam 21:20, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone! That was really helpful, cheers. Together we can create a world of peace, prosperity and non-liquorice flavored mince 😊 ——SN 54129 07:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

February 16

WWII Imperial Army of Japan Medical Officer Stationed in the Philippines

Seeking information on a "Major Sekiguchi," (no first name given) the Japanese Imperial Army officer in charge of the medical care of hostages and POWs in Camp O'Donnell, Capas, Tarlac Province, Luzon, Philippines. Reference found in O'Donnell: Andersonville of the Pacific Author: Col (US Army Ret) John A. Olson. pp.29

Looking for any information regarding this individual such as first name, any background information, where exactly he was stationed and for how long as well as the chain of command he answered to. 2601:980:C100:34F0:4568:6394:EBBA:F2F0 (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Major Hisashi Sekiguchi, seems to be quite a common name, so a quick google search gives plenty of false positives. --Soman (talk) 01:02, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Honorary ambassadors

This question arises from a seemingly never-resolvable discussion about whether or not Sidney Poitier is entitled to be known as "Sir Sidney" post his 1974 knighthood.

I was reasonably persuaded that he was an American citizen from birth and has never held Bahamian, British or any other citizenship. Case closed. He's plain "Sidney Poitier KBE". That was until I reminded myself that he was the Bahamian Ambassador to Japan for 10 years 1997-2007, and Bahamian Ambassador to UNESCO for five years 2002-2007. As I said on Poitier's talk page, I know that non-citizens are sometimes appointed honorary consuls, but I've never heard of a non-citizen being appointed a country's ambassador. If so, why wouldn't he have been referred to as "honorary ambassador", in line with the "honorary consul" designation?

I checked at Ambassador, and it seems the only instance of an "honorary ambassador" is in the case of Kosovo.

So, are there any other cases of a non-citizen being appointed a country's ambassador to another country? Or even an honorary ambassador?

Also, I have searched fruitlessly for the official announcement of his (honorary) knighthood, so if anyone here can help in tracking that down, I'd be most grateful. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:09, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you assuming he wasn't a Bahamian Citizen? The current position is that anyone "Born outside of The Bahamas to a married Bahamian male who was not born outside The Bahamas" is automatically given Bahamian Citizenship. DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, but he was born when The Bahamas was a British Crown Colony, and British law on dual citizenship then applied. It has since become an independent nation with its own laws, but Poitier's talk page persuaded me that there's no evidence he's ever become a Bahamian citizen, despite growing up there. Worth a read. If you know any different, please advise. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:26, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) The National Archives, in a reference used in the Poitier article describe him as a joint US-Bahamian citizen. DuncanHill (talk) 00:28, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I already queried that very point on Poitier's talk page, because that same page also describes his knighthood as "honorary". Go figure. The discussion is in about three parts, the most recent part being at the bottom. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:33, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the claim in that thread about Britain not allowing dual nationality until 1981 is right. I'm pretty sure it was allowed in the British Nationality Act 1948, and I'm not at all certain that it was prohibited before. DuncanHill (talk) 00:44, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 1914 Act, which seems to be the one in force at the time of his birth, would make him a British subject by descent and only seems to deprive someone of British subject status if they were naturalised as a citizen of a foreign state. Poitier was not naturalised as a USian citizen. DuncanHill (talk) 00:59, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Independent, reporting his appointment as ambassador to Japan has him a dual Bahamian-US citizen, as does the Encyclopaedia Britannica. DuncanHill (talk) 01:06, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Queue after 1911

Were there any significant communities in China that retained the Queue (hairstyle) after 1911? Also when did the queue fell out of favor in the Chinese American community?