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June 8

Osco-Umbrian languages Inscriptions

How many are Inscriptions in Osco-Umbrian languages?--212.171.69.33 (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

How many what? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The article Etruscan civilization may contain some references. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:46, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs How many Inscriptions in Osco-Umbrian languages are?--212.171.69.33 (talk) 16:59, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

There's nothing about "Osco-Umbrian" in the article. Meanwhile, are you trying to ask, of all possible language inscriptions anywhere in the world, how many are in this "Osco-Umbrian" language? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:08, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems pretty obvious (to me at least) that they want to know how many inscriptions in Osco-Umbrian are known. As the article (Osco-Umbrian languages) says, these inscriptions form the basis of our knowledge of these language, and it is therefore interesting to know how large that corpus is. --Wrongfilter (talk) 21:06, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The answer - what a surprise - is found in Oscan language (~800 inscriptions) and Umbrian language (~30 inscriptions). --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

For Oscan proper Oscan_language there are three important texts: Tabula Bantina, the Oscan Tablet or Tabula Osca, and the Cippus Abellanus. All known texts togehter are about 800. The archeological Museum in Naples has a collection of inscriptions from Pompeii, where Oscan was still spoken in the first century. Under Osco-Umbrian_languages are listed the languages of the group with links to the single articles where you will find some mention of the number of known inscriptions to the language 2003:F5:6F10:0:B933:9D3:80E:608C (talk) 22:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC) Marco PB

History: Reliable secondary sources

• Are the any high quality secondary sources for history of Psychiatry and / or Psychology? Most seem to be book chapters and have considerable bias or ignore major things and focus on trivia
• Are very large in print encyclopedias considered good sources - and if so where do I find them?
• I am particularly looking for content covering 1950 onwards, but 1900-1950 would be helpful. I already checked the DSM and ICD but they just listed diagnoses back then.

Even neutral secondary sources are difficult to find for some topics. PTSD, soldier's heart, railway spine, hysteria, conversation disorders, multiple personality, dissociative disorders, schizophrenia / dementia precox especially. (I'm not looking for Freud or psychology) Amousey (they/then pronouns) (talk) 18:20, 8 June 2020 (UTC) (edited - secondary not tiertary preferred) Amousey (they/then pronouns) (talk) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Discovering the History of Psychiatry has a lengthy preview on Google Books.

Also History of Psychiatry and Medical Psychology.

Perhaps of interest: Hearing Voices: The History of Psychiatry in Ireland. Alansplodge (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks @Alansplodge: Amousey (they/then pronouns) (talk) 01:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

We have an article with a lot of works cited: History of psychiatry. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 10:25, 9 June 2020 (UTC) Amousey (they/then pronouns) (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2020 (UTC) Thank you, I've checked that one. I did find a book with history - Dissociative Disorders: DSMV and Beyond.

Henry VIII's letter about Catherine Howard's adultery

What did Henry VIII's letter about accusing his fifth wife Catherine Howard of having sexual relations with Henry Mannox and Francis Dereham while she was living with the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk before she married the king say? And who wrote the letter and why did he or she tell his Majesty about it? 86.129.17.19 (talk) 21:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

It is not really clear what letter you are referring to. Who wrote a letter when to whom? (If any historians are reading this; some of the references in the article are in urgent need of being made more precise, what with all the bare references to (mostly further unidentified) "Acts of the Privy Council", "BL Add MSS", "BL Royal MSS, State Papers", "Calendar of State Papers, Spanish", "Correspondance", "Correspondance Politique", "Hall, Triumphant", "Ives, Fall Reconsidered", "Letters and Papers", and "Spanish Papers".)  --Lambiam 09:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

In Catherine Howard, the odd citations were first inserted by User:Jgrantduff back in 2015. Unfortunately Jgrantduff has been indeffed since 2017, so there's not going to be a chance to ask him to improve the article. Sometimes those sorts of citations make me worried about plagiarism, because they're more often found in older scholarship than things that've been published in the last twenty-odd years, and few people who write Wikipedia articles are scholars who reflexively use those sorts of citations out of habit. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 13:14, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

From here maybe? I can't find any duplicate content, but those refs seem to be just cut-and-paste from the page (or vice-versa, nothing on wayback). fiveby(zero) 15:34, 9 June 2020 (UTC)pretty sure that reflist is copied from WP. fiveby(zero) 16:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Some quick Googling leads me to believe the OP is talking about a letter written by Thomas Cranmer. Cranmer had evidently come into information about Howard's alleged past via John Lascelles, and had asked the counsel of Thomas Audley and Edward Seymour, who advised him to report the matter to the King in writing. From the article on Cranmer, I get the impression that it wasn't so much a letter as a note, and so it's entirely possible that its contents weren't preserved. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Here be ye transcript: Letter of Archbishop Cranmer to King Henry VIII, Regarding Queen Catherine Howard (November 1541). Alansplodge (talk) 14:40, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, that is Cranmer's later report about his interrogation of Catherine at Southwark. Back to square one. Alansplodge (talk) 15:01, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

An account of Cranmer's revelation, but not the actual text, is at Catherine Howard (p. 164) by Lacey Baldwin Smith:

"In the end, Audley and Hertford persuaded the pliable Archbishop to accept the unpleasant task, but not even Cranmer had the courage 'to express the same to the King's Majesty by word of mouth'. Instead, he wrote a letter narrating the entire story of how Lassells's married sister, Mary Hall, who had once been a chamberer in the Dowager Duchess's household, had revealed to her brother the details of what presumably had transpired in the girls' dormitory at Lambeth".

Alansplodge (talk) 15:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

The book they cite at the end, The Remains of Thomas Cranmer, contains a pretty extensive collection of other letters by Cranmer. Skimming the letters for 1540-41, I find no other letter from the time period than the above-linked report about the interrogation. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 16:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Nothing relevant in The works of Thomas Cranmer or Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, Volume 16, 1540-1541 either. Alansplodge (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Our article on Catherine Howard states: "It is unlikely that King Henry was unaware of the allegations against his wife when on All Saints' Day, 1 November 1541, he arranged to be found praying in the Chapel Royal, where he received a warrant of the queen's arrest that described her crimes." If this is correct, no letter by Cranmer reached the King. However, Weir, to whom the sentence is partially sourced, paints a different story: "On that day, however, as Henry arrived in the royal pew in the chapel royal to render thanks, he found a sealed letter awaiting him".[1] That letter is attributed to Cranmer, and there is no hint it is a warrant. But, whether a warrant or not, there seems to be consensus that Cranmer was behind this and that the document laid out Howards's alleged promiscuous past.  --Lambiam 20:03, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

The (to me, awkward) phrase "It is unlikely that King Henry was unaware" was introduced in 2019, and did not alter the references. I think the likelihood opinion in that sentence is purely the product of the editor who introduced it and should probably be removed. The word "warrant" was introduced in 2015 without a direct reference for the nature of whatever the King read on that day (though the end of the paragraph cites the same Letters and Papers, Acts of the Privy Council Meetings, and a couple pages of Weir that don't match the version in Google Books). I think the term "warrant" might be incorrect based on what the other sources say. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 22:36, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Would you like to put it right or do you want me to have a bash? Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I cleaned up what I describe in my post above. Please feel free to improve the article more, as there are certainly places where it needs improvement. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 18:52, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

In the 4th episode of the final season of The Tudors, the letter about Catherine's sexual relationship with Dereham was delivered to the king. And in the next episode when the king asked Edward Seymour what the letter says, he did not read it in full and was not read in voice-over either. He just said "The letter accuses Queen Catherine of dissolute living before her marriage to your majesty." 86.129.17.70 (talk) 14:44, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

June 9

Cut compound time

There is a musical notation conundrum that I am pretty sure I have asked before here: if you have a piece that could be thought of in 4/4, but actually you want the half notes to get the beat, you write 2/2. So, if you have a piece that could be thought of in 12/8, but actually you want the dotted half notes to get the beat, what can you write? 6/4 implies that the dotted halves are split into threes, not into the twos that you want. And 3/2 is even worse.

The one example I can think of right now is Schubert's Geisternähe, D 100 (score). That also is a rather ugly solution (with all respect to Schubert, of course), because Schubert manages it by writing 2/2 and dealing with the fact that the meter is really 12/8 by writing lots and lots of triplets everywhere. So, is there some standard way to do this, beyond the most obvious one of writing 12/8 and adding a parenthetical tempo marking "(in two)"? Double sharp (talk) 06:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not a practising musician, but I wonder, how would ⁶⁺⁶
₈ be interpreted?  --Lambiam 09:45, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Yeah, that does seem like the clearest option without explanatory notes; at least, I would interpret it to mean exactly what I wanted. Thank you! Double sharp (talk) 11:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Most pieces I've played or sung notated in 12/8 naturally have 4 pulses per measure, the equivalent of writing in 4/4 using triplets on every beat. If the tempo is fast enough that you want only two pulses per measure (on dotted half notes, as you mention), I believe it would still be notated in 12/8 with two strong beats per measure in the accompaniment. --Thomprod (talk) 11:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Alfred Rawlinson middle name?

In our article, Sir Alfred Rawlinson, 3rd Baronet, someone has amended the lead to show his name as "Sir Toby Alfred Rawlinson, 3rd Baronet". As far as I can tell, "Toby" was a family and army nickname rather than his actual name. Question: a) was Toby or Tobias actually part of his name? b) If not, what is the standard Wikipedia procedure for including a nickname in the lead paragraph? Alansplodge (talk) 15:29, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Not suggesting it's Wikidoctrine, but both within and beyond Wikipedia, by far the usual practice I have encountered is to include the nickname within double quotes between the last formal forename and the surname, thus: Sir Alfred "Toby" Rawlinson, or Erno Matti Juhani "Emppu" Vuorinen. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.125.72.102 (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

You're correct, per MOS:NICKNAME. I took the liberty of editing accordingly. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 19:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Here is a reference for Toby being a family nickname (and not actually part of his name): A memoir of Major-General Sir Henry Creswicke Rawlinson, by George Rawlinson, London: Longmans, Green and Co, 1898, page 291 Sir Henry had married, in 1862, Louisa (the youngest daughter of Mr. Seymour of Knoyle, Wiltshire), whose brothers, Henry Danby and Alfred, were respectively members for Poole and for Totnes. The marriage was in every way a happy one. Two sons were the fruit of the union — Henry Seymour, commonly known as ' Harry,' or Sennacherib, born in 1864, and Alfred, born in 1867, called in his family and by his intimates ' Toby.' 70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you all. He's one of my favourite historical characters; cavalryman, Olympic gold medalist, pilot, racing driver and sports car entrepreneur; in the First World War a volunteer chauffeur cum one-man motorised reconnaissance unit, somehow promoted from civilian to colonel overnight with friends who are corporals and French generals. When the army finds out he's been appointed in error they chuck him out, so he goes the same day to the navy who on the spot make him a lieutenant-commander and put him in charge of an armoured car squadron and then they let him create a mobile anti-aircraft brigade. When he gets bored with that, he goes off to be a spy in Turkey and when he's finally released from a Turkish prison years after the war, he marries a flighty actress. You couldn't make it up. Alansplodge (talk) 13:14, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

June 10

Was the Babylonians purpose for the Babylonian Captivity hostages or what?

The thing I had read from history about small numbers royal/noble hostages that Rome took from countries and tribes made me assume that the Jewish Exiles were also hostages to the obedience and tribute of Judah to Babylonia. But the extremely large numbers like 40,000 don’t fit that. It’s more akin in numbers to the deportation of the Ten Lost Tribes? What exactly was the purpose then. (I should also ask what motive the Assyrians had in deporting the ten tribes. Some military purpose?Was there a similar reason for that?)Rich (talk) 07:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Read Resettlement policy of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. The Babylonians inherited the same policy for conquered people.KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, don't always trust the veracity of large numbers in records or orally transmitted tales from this era and milieu (meant in the broadest senses): sometimes they may not have been meant literally, but might rather have been a customary expression meaning "a great many" or something similar. At other times thay may have been chosen for their supposed mystical significance (see Numerology in the Bible and Significance of numbers in Judaism). For some reason, numbers involving 4 multiplied by some power of ten seem to be particularly popular in this context.

Compare the supposed number of the victims of the Massacre of the innocents – those male infants under two years old in and around the village of Bethlehem supposedly killed on the orders of King Herod, a tale found only in the Gospel of Matthew (and subsequent writings dependent on it). This is variously reported in later religious works as anything up to 144,000, although the demographic unlikelyhood of this should be obvious, and a 20th-century estimate in the Catholic Encyclopedia suggest a more reasonable estimate (assuming that the episode happened at all) to be between 18 and 32. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.202.208.38 (talk) 20:34, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Followup questions, are there traditional Jewish holidays, memorials, songs, prayers concerning the Ten Lost Tribes? Same question about the Babylonian Captivity. Thanks. 144.35.45.71 (talk) 18:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

The Book of Lamentations is traditionally recited on Tisha B'Av, --ColinFine (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Psalm 137 famously concerns the captivity. Alansplodge (talk) 11:02, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

June 11

re: birth and death dates

Hello, I am wondering where on Wikipedia, if it is available, would an authors birth and death dates be located. The authors that I am searching for are classical authors. Their works would have been published any where from the 1300's to the 1900's.

I am doing recordings for Librivox so that information is wished for. I will check back for an answer on this board.

April Apers6090 (talk) 18:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

If we know the dates they would be in the authors' biographies, right at the beginning. Which authors are you thinking of? Check whether we have biographies of them. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

hello again, The authors I was thinking of are Daphne Dale & Carlton B. Case. Neither of those authors have a "page", so I am shown once I have typed their names in the search box. I just typed in a name followed with the word biography to no avail. Possibly I should be doing it differently? Please do let me know just how I can access biographies on Wikipedia? Thank you,

April Apers6090 (talk) 22:11, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

It looks like we don't have biographies of either of those authors. Goodreads.com has some book-related pages for both of them. Worldcat has a identity record saying Carleton B. Case was born in 1857, but doesn't give the month or day. Their page for Daphne Dale doesn't give dates, but LibraryThing says 1853–1938 here. If you can find any citeable biographical info for either of those authors, you are welcome to write biographies of them! I'm surprised we don't have them already. Normally to find a Wikipedia biography, just type the person's name into the search box, or to link to it, put it in double square brackets: typing [[Maya Angelou]] will create a link to Maya Angelou. Some searching around didn't find a death date for Carleton B. Case. 2602:24A:DE47:BB20:50DE:F402:42A6:A17D (talk) 23:44, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your assistance with this. I will mention the fact of the elusive dates to a Librivox admin once I research it a bit more on the sites that you have suggested. Thank you again!! Apers6090 (talk) 00:16, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Here I see "Carleton Britton Case (1857–?)", so his date of death is apparently not known – but at least we have his middle name. His precise birth date is given here as 18 November 1857, with as his place of birth Westfield, Chautauqua, New York, United States. He has an author page on Wikisource.  --Lambiam 06:50, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Well once again I must thank you for all the effort that you put forth on this. I will most certainly look at the wikisource you have mentioned. April Apers6090 (talk) 00:19, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

¶ Heaven knows, I'm no search wizard and before tonight had been completely innocent of these authors or their names, but a blind search on Bing, refined on a second try to "Daphne Dale author books", brought forth this relatively responsive item in LibraryThing (something else that I'd never known of before tonight): http://www.librarything.com/author/daledaphne:

• [my paraphrase] Daphne Dale is the pseudonym of Charles Franklin Beezley (an American man born in February 1853 who died on August 23, 1938).

However another unfamiliar site https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Beezley-203 lists a string of three Charles Franklin Beezleys with other dates. The most relevant one would seem to be this one, although it's quite likely that there's a simple coincidence of names, approximate dates and field of work (books):

Charles Franklin Beezley

Born 6 Feb 1859 in Kosciusko County, Indiana

• ANCESTORS
  • Son of William Beezley and Lydia Kile
  • Brother of Mary C Beezley, Ephraim Elmer Ellsworth Beezley and Ida Eudora Beezley
  • Husband of Beatrice Elizabeth Cummins — married 6 Jan 1881 in Carlisle, Indianamap
• DESCENDANTS
  • Father of Charles Franklin Beezley Jr, Minnie Bess Beezley, Mabel Claire Beezley, Frederick Samuel Beezley, Edwin Cummins Beezley, Ruth Allen Beezley and Mary Lois Beezley

Died 29 Aug 1938 in Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, USA

Born 6 FEB 1859. Kosciusko County, Indiana. [1][2][3][4][5][6]

Died 29 AUG 1938. Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, USA. [7][8][9]

Note: Listed in 1870 census of Kosciusko, Indiana: Male, age 12, born in Indiana, attending school. 1

Residence Age in 1860: 1. 1860 Tippecanoe, Kosciusko, Indiana, United States. [10] Age in 1870: 12. 1870 Pierceton, Kosciusko, Indiana, United States. [11] 1910 Chicago Ward 20, Cook, Illinois. [12] 1920 Oak Park Precinct 5, Cook, Illinois. [13] 1925 Oak Park, Illinois, USA. [14] 1930 Oak Park, Cook, Illinois. [15] Pierceton, Kosciusko, Indiana. [16] Oak Park, Cook, Illinois. [17]

Occupation: partner, book publishing house. 13 AUG 1934. Chicago, Cook County, Illinois, USA.

File Format: jpg. C PHOTO Scrapbook: Y.

Marriage Husband William Beezley. Wife Lydia Kile. Child: Charles Franklin Beezley. Child: Mary C Beezley. Child: Ephraim Elmer Ellsworth Beezley. Child: Ida Eudora A Beezley. Marriage 3 DEC 1857. Kosciusko County, Indiana. [18]

Sources....

—— Shakescene (talk) 04:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

All of your information has been quite helpful, thank you one final time.

Appreciatively yours,

April Apers6090 (talk) 23:22, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

June 12

African-American expatriates in Paris and Algerian independence

Just how did African-American expatriates in Paris feel about the Algerian independence movement in the 1950s and 1960s? Futurist110 (talk) 00:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

James Baldwin, who lived then in Paris, wrote (among many things) about the Algerian War in No Name on the Street (1972). I don't know if this dealt with the feelings of African-American expats in general.  --Lambiam 06:34, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

William Gardner Smith wrote The Stone Face (1963) about the Paris massacre of 1961. A commentary is here.

Our African Americans in France article (Wikipedia has an article on everything) has a long list of black US expats that might be worth browsing. Alansplodge (talk) 10:53, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Southwest Airlines and the King Family

After Coretta Scott King died, how was Southwest Airlines involved with helping the King family?142.255.72.126 (talk) 01:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

What is your initial reason for thinking that there was such an involvement? The airline was founded by Rollin King, but the shared surname appears to be entirely coincidental, and any link between the family and the company has so far escaped my cursory investigations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.41.14 (talk) 17:52, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Do any religions combine the afterlives have afterlives of Buddhism with the googolplex year long minds of Christianity?

Presumably they'd have to keep getting better if the new planes of existence aren't going to get monotonous after you've seen a few googolplex of them. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:48, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

You don't remember your past life if you had one do you? You don't remember 1000 BC. That is the Buddhist way. In Christianity or Islam we're going to have to be a trillion years old at one point and remember back to the 20th century. I suppose the first heaven could just be slightly better than this life and we'll work ourselves up from there. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

An afterlife (if any) is purely hypothetical. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:47, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I think the simple answer has to be No. Even the most developed religions are quite vague when it comes to heaven.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:10, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm also struggling to understand the question. Are you asking if there is a religion that says people are reincarnated with clear memories of their past lives? If that's your question, I think the answer is no. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:14, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Or perhaps you go to a different universe maybe in a young body but don't get new early lives and personalities and wombs and stuff. But Shantavira says details are hard to come by apparently. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Our Reincarnation article covers the main points and has links for further reading. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Most Christian denominations, of course, do not feature a belief in reincarnation. Those who "go to heaven" after death are usually supposed to be eternally rapt in the contemplation of God, which (since God is infinite) is presumably infinitely satisfying. I don't think many Christians would subscribe to the notion of a series of improving "planes of existence" in the afterlife or suppose that the blessed will "remember back to the 20th century" in the way SMW implies. Deor (talk) 13:14, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Or whatever century was a few years after birth, for some of our readers that will be 21st. So when many of the Christians say things like they can meet X when they die they are ignorant of their theological details (not surprising) and really should be saying they'll be in eternal rapture at God, presumably the only way the heaven theologians could resolve paradoxes. Buddhist thinkers resolved with (near) complete replays and nirvana and karma to temper the resulting selfish hedonism, others just reason "worry about nonexistence wastes the nonrenewable resource of existing". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Right. My gestalt as a Catholic (rather than any particular knowledge of theology) is that the idea of an afterlife where you’re essentially living an eternal human life with human consciousness isn’t exactly canonical. So the concern about boredom or living with an eternity of memories isn't really a problem. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

• Your question kind of already answers itself as the "afterlives" (as they were) in Buddhism can be incredibly long. Also, your question seems to take an oversimplified view of the afterlife in historical Christian thought. Within Buddhism, without nirvana, you're stuck with being reincarnated as either a human, an animal, or various spiritual beings -- or you might go to hell. If you reincarnate as a Deva or Asura, your lifespan can easily be billions of years (even longer than the current age of the observable universe). From a Buddhist perspective can be a bad thing, as you have less reason to seek nirvana. Buddhist hell isn't permanent but it can last for sextillions of years (10²¹ years... for a sense of scale, scientists expect that in 10¹⁴ years all stars will be either rather dim dwarf stars or black holes). There's also the Pure lands, which a Buddha or Bodhisattva has set aside so that devout followers can reincarnate there and stay there until they achieve nirvana. For the purposes of this question, Jainism and the various sects of Hinduism have comparable cosmologies where one might be reborn in a "higher" realm for an incredibly long period of time before reincarnating, with the goal of escaping this cycle of rebirth being ideal (though the exact details will vary). Tenrikyo is the only religion I can name where reincarnation is considered not as something to escape, nor even a part of nature to be accepted but as a divine blessing. I wouldn't be amazed if a new age or neopagan movement glorified reincarnation as a reaction against death but Tenrikyo starts out from the get-go with "existence is great so thank God for reincarnation" as a core doctrine.

Historical Christian thought on the afterlife (indeed, western thought on the afterlife) is more complex than just being very long and the idea of being bored in heaven simply doesn't work in any of its schools of thought. The currently popular view of heaven as a continuation of our currently limited mortal consciousness but in a much nicer (but still physical) place is a later and oversimplified reading of the Church's acceptance of Neoplatonic doctrine of the immortality of the soul, later further muddled in popular culture by Spiritualism and Theosophy trying to appeal to audiences lacking the theological education necessary for mysticism. The western views can be broadly broken into four categories which I'll refer to as mortalism, divine ascent, perfectionism, and gilgul.

Mortalism: Second Temple Judaism (except maybe the Sadducees), Apostolic Christianity, and Zoroastrianism pretty clearly believed in what is now pejoratively called Soul sleep. All references to "the resurrection of the dead" only make sense within the context of this belief. You are dead or are trapped in Sheol/Hades (all the same thing) until the end of time, when God brings you back to a complete existence and you live outside of time (at which point, see "perfectionism"). Hekhalot literature make it abundantly clear that heaven is the realm of angels whose job is to block unjust prayers (c.f. the later Ephesians 6:12) so they don't reach overly-merciful God -- not an abode of the dead. In Jewish literature from this period, the only permanent human residents in heaven were Enoch and Elijah; anyone else was a guest or invader (c.f. the later 2nd Corinthians 12:2-4). Resurrection won't be in heaven but in the completed world of (earthly) paradise. Pre-modern Christianity jams this idea somewhat in the Harrowing of Hell, where even Abraham and Moses weren't allowed into heaven until after Christ was crucified (but were brought to heaven during the three days Jesus spent in the tomb). In Zoroastrianism, this resurrection pulls all that's good in this world into menog, the mental realm or the mind of God (menog is cognate with the English Mind and the the Latin Mens, from whence mental). In all cases, the end result is the same as Perfectionism, but happens after a much longer period of time.

Divine Ascent: During and before the Apostolic era, the view common to pagans (and eventually gentile Christians) of the time (as can be seen through Ancient Egyptian funerary texts, Hermeticism, Gnosticism, what we can gather of the Greco-Roman mysteries, and pagan Neoplatonic authors) was that when you die, your mind ("soul") goes to higher planes of existence (almost always identified with the Celestial spheres) to be tested by that sphere's ruler before one can move on. If you failed a test, you might be booted back down to earth with your memories wiped to try again or (especially in Christianity) you might be stuck there for some time before being allowed to move on. Egyptian burial texts, the Greco-Roman mysteries, and Gnosticism all claimed to provide the True names of the rulers of each heaven, which served as a cheat code to get past them. These groups charged a lot of time or money, required a lot of complex and special ceremonies, and would limit based on social class. One thing that helped Christianity spread is that the early Church gave potential converts a simple one-word cheat code following a simple ceremony -- all at no cost and with no regard for social status. It is possible that there was also a hybrid between this and Mortalism, with the celestial spheres and Sheol/Hades being the same thing: one pushes up as high as they can until they are stuck and remain dead, and that the Harrowing of Hell wasn't a descent into the underworld to fight Satan as much an invasion of heaven to overthrow the Divine Council (hence Jesus's words to the Penitent thief). The idea of a divine ascent was partially retained in Christianity as Purgatory and Aerial toll houses, appears in Dante's Divine Comedy, pulled down from heaven and into our hearts in The Interior Castle of Teresa of Ávila, simultaneously simplified and bloviated in the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg, and revived in Spiritualism and Theosophy. In all cases, the end goal is union with the Divine, for which continue on to Perfectionism.

Spiritualism and Theosophy combined ideas from this view with ideas from Hinduism and Buddhism. Spiritualism is generally non-dogmatic, so you might find a spiritualist who may as well join the Swedenborgian church, one who holds to the Buddhist cosmology I've already linked to, and plenty more who view both as tools to describe something ineffible. Theosophy is more dogmatic, with Helena Blavatsky presenting a synthesis of eastern and western cosmologies that none of her disciples dares contest but which they'll present and squabble over elaborations thereof. These originally had multiple levels, with the lower levels essentially being a para-Earth while the higher levels approach and eventually reach Perfectionism. To reach evangelical audiences retaining only vague memories of centuries of perfectionism and theologically uneducated people who just want distraction from their death anxiety, this was watered down to the popular notion of heaven we see today as "earth but nicer." Historical Divine Ascent cosmologies viewed the planes as increasingly alien (in the older sense of "unfamiliar," not physical little green men in flying metal discs).

Perfectionism: The Church's acceptance of the Neoplatonic doctrine of the immortality of the soul isn't so much complete opposition of Mortalism or favoring of Divine Ascent as pushing both of them to to an identical (potential) logical conclusion for the sake of ecumenical convenience. Mortalism's "end of time" doesn't mean "end of this time and the start of another," it means no time; so the resurrected saints may as well exist "now" as they do in any other time. In the face of eternity in a perfected state, any time pushing through purgatory or aerial toll houses is a moot point. The "complete existence" of both Mortalism and Divine Ascent would mean that there's no existential angst, nagging desires, egoism, etc, so being static (in a world either like our own or completely different, either outside of time or eternal) would be a non-issue. Rather than squabble over the details that are seen (at best) as through a glass darkly, it's better to focus on the end goal. To worry over such matters is like complaining that one has to be born, live, and die to go to heaven. Christian authors like Meister Eckhart, John of the Cross, and whoever wrote The Cloud of Unknowing present this as an absence of suffering, attachment, and egoism -- in ways that sometimes earn praise from Buddhist authors.

Gilgul: A less common view included only for the sake of completeness, held by some kabbalist and Sufi authors (and eventually some 19th century and modern Christian esotericists). This starts with the view that one's spirit and soul (i.e. lifeforce and identity) are two distinct things and not the same thing (which may also be held with the above views instead) but also asserts that while one's identity goes on to heaven or hell, one's lifeforce (which has been shaped by prior identities) is constantly re-used for new souls. This is a historically uncommon view held by some deep mystics (though noteworthy ones) instead of the masses (though it did radically influence Jewish exorcism and the Sufi terminology for these ideas was used by religions that neighbored Islam such as the Druze or Yazidism).

Ian.thomson (talk) 01:19, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Location/name of thing

I remember hearing about this somewhere, and I'm going to paraphrase it here:
Somewhere in the American Southwest scientists were storing toxic waste from atomic bomb tests. The material would be highly toxic for thousands of years, so the scientists were thinking of ways to signify to future civilizations that they shouldn't enter. They thought of tall, ominous statues and making cats that would glow from the radiation, among other things.
Does anyone know what this place was called? I don't know how I would go about finding it because looking up "toxic waste southwest statues cats scientists" doesn't exactly direct you to an answer.
If anyone can help me, thanks so much.
Heyoostorm (talk) 13:13, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Some of what you're talking about is covered at Long-time nuclear waste warning messages (where the cats are mentioned, for instance). To the best of my knowledge, most of the speculation about messages isn't tied to any particular site in the Southwest, though you may be thinking of the proposed Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository. Deor (talk) 13:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Search the archive of the Radiolab program for their episode on the radioactive cats etc--they have the answer you're looking for, and interviews with info that would be hard to find elsewhere. I don't remember if it was Yucca, it might have been. Temerarius (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Poking around further, I happened on a lot of media coverage of plans to devise long-term markers for the WIPP facility in New Mexico—see Waste Isolation Pilot Plant#Warning messages for future humans and also this. That's more likely than Yucca Mountain to be what the OP was thinking of. Deor (talk) 18:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not the first to point this out, but building a complex of ominous-looking architecture, and putting up signs saying (essentially) "This place is cursed. Go away. Don't dig here. I mean it" sounds like a really good way to get future archaeologists / treasure-hunters / tomb raiders to start digging there. Iapetus (talk) 08:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

June 13

Creator of the motto "Land of the free, home of the brave"

Who created the motto and nickname for the United States of America "Land of the free, Home of the brave"? What does it literally mean? Does it mean that the Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantees freedom of speech for example? I'm seeing this motto despite the U.S. having a high legal drinking age (21+), largest prison population on Earth, capital punishment, and police brutality on people of color like the George Floyd incident. However, I am not talking about and debating this topic on the Reference desk because this is not a place to debate. I only want to know the literal meaning of the motto. Thank you. 47.145.102.126 (talk) 04:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"... the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" are the last eleven words in each verse of The Star-Spangled Banner#Lyrics by Francis Scott Key, which is the current official national anthem of the United States.

If you want an ironic counterpoint by Leadbelly, a towering blues singer who ardently championed civil rights, was sympathetic to Communism and was no stranger to jails, see Bourgeois Blues which ends, according to one non-academic source as

Home of the brave, land of the free

I don't wanna be mistreated by no bourgeoisie

Lord, in a bourgeois town

Uhm, the bourgeois town

I got the bourgeois blues

Gonna spread the news all around

https://www.metrolyrics.com/the-bourgeois-blues-lyrics-leadbelly.html

However the version I remember (perhaps falsely from seeing a Pete Seeger documentary about Leadbelly several decades ago) ran "Home of the brave,/Land of the Free,/Don't get yourself arrested in Washington, D.C.,/'cause it's a bourgeois town ..." —— Shakescene (talk)

PLEASE CONFINE YOUR ANSWERS TO THE ORIGIN OF THE PHRASE RATHER THAN ITS VALIDITY. I just finished moving over a dozen irrelevant comments provoked by the OP's side comment to the talk pages of all those who debated how free the U.S. is, was, will be, isn't, wasn't or won't be to the talk pages of the contributors. I'm inclined to do the same (unless some other editor does it first) with other off-topic comments on a subject which I personally feel very strongly, but which don't belong here. What should be discussed here are questions such as whether Francis Scott Key created those phrases or if he drew them from some other written or popular source. —— Shakescene (talk) 18:40, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

When included in the anthem, the words "Land of the free, Home of the brave" can only be taken to mean whatever Francis Scott Key intended hem to mean. They are not part of American law (other than the law which names "the star spangled banner" as the U.S. anthem), and have zero binding force on U.S. policy. They have no binding power whatsoever in preventing America from enslaving or imprisoning people, or behaving with cowardice rather than bravery. (I'm not saying America lacks freedom or bravery - just that the anthem has zero legal powers in enforcing such behaviour).

Likewise, if others adopt the "motto", it means (to them) whatever they think or claim that it means. People are free to have their own ideas as to what they consider "freedom" or "bravery". 2001:8003:52A0:100:8C36:5014:F8A:E75F (talk) 19:09, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

I suspect, given the circumstances under which Francis Scott Key wrote those words (which I can't go into, but you can easily find on wikipedia), "freedom" meant freedom from foreign (i.e. British) rule. And "bravery" meant the bravery of those defending Fort McHenry (and America in general, perhaps) from being forced into submission by these British invaders. To understand this, you'd need to read up about the war of 1812, and the circumstances, under which Francis Scott Key wrote his words - I can't write a treatise on this, but perhaps some of my fellow wikipedians can provide links to Wikipedia articles which can give you the necessary background info. 2001:8003:52A0:100:8C36:5014:F8A:E75F (talk) 19:14, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

A thorough google search has failed to find anyone who thinks that Key didn't invent the phrase. Note that The Star-Spangled Banner only became the official national anthem in 1931, although it was very well-known for more than a century before that. To pick up on the pertinent point made by 2001 above, the earlier British patriotic song, Rule, Britannia! (1740), makes much of supposed British freedom, although the abolition of colonial slavery was almost a century into the future and universal adult suffrage another century after that. Alansplodge (talk) 19:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Where, mixed with the olive, the laurel shall wave,
And form a bright wreath for the brows of the brave.

— http://www.potw.org/archive/potw340.html

also Key for "To Anacreon in Heaven". Meter and rhyme considerations, not to take anything from the defenders of Fort McHenry. fiveby(zero)

I checked Newspapers.com (a pay site, and not comprehensive) and I couldn't find anything prior to 1814. That doesn't prove it wasn't in use by then. I found a site[2] which is one author's opinion on various parts of the lyrics, though he doesn't say where the phrase in question came from. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:33, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Citation for total population

At Afro-Polish in the infobox the total population is marked as "5,000-10,000"[1]. Where in this source is this figure located? --Gryllida (talk) 22:12, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

@Gryllida: Perhaps nowhere? There is an edit war happening on that number currently. RudolfRed (talk) 03:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Seems there's an ongoing edit war over that figure. As to that specific reference, I have no idea where that specific figure is. You should probably talk to the editor who added it. I'm guessing it involves actually using the website at the link and adding up figures rather than a plain statement of "The number of Afro-Polish people is X". Interestingly, prior to this edit war, the figure in the infobox was 4000-5000 and was cited to an article on "Expatica", the link to which was dead and not in the Internet Archive (with some Googling I was able to find it, but it also didn't have a figure). Curiously this figure and reference was present in the first revision of the article (the figure is hidden in a now-deprecated infobox field, but I assure you it's there).

The reference for the 5-10k number is in my opinion insufficient, not because it doesn't provide the number (I actually can't tell), but because the footnote doesn't explain how to use the reference to arrive at that figure, which should be required for a reference where WP:CALC is at play. I'm thinking that unless a better reference comes out, the best option is to remove the number entirely. 199.66.69.67 (talk) 04:04, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Not only that, but the article refers to "residents in Poland of African descent", whereas the source simply lists Country. Although not explained, the latter likely means country of origin (in other words, country immigrated from), which does not mean the same thing. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 07:43, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you - but what then? Sum up counts for all African countries manually? I would like to find at least some figures, from somewhere. Gryllida (talk) 00:44, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

There has been a discussion about this at my page also. Gryllida (talk) 01:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

June 14

Word pair order

Why do certain common pairs of words tend to always be said/written in the same order e.g. black and white (not white and black), salt and pepper, heaven and earth, up and down, thick and thin, hot and cold, stop and go, fun and games, etc., whereas other pairs are more flexible e.g. night and day, light and dark, etc.? I can see that idiomatic usage (e.g. "blowing hot and cold") might have had some influence, but why should that be, and is that the full story? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 09:01, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

PaleCloudedWhite: see Irreversible binomial: it's mostly just a list of them, rather than doing much about explaining, but some of the sources referenced may help. --ColinFine (talk) 09:23, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Very cool question. As ColinFine points out, you're looking for information about irreversible binomials. An interesting thing I came across that might prove informative doing linguistic analysis of the phenomenon might be to look at "irreversible" binomials where the two terms are identical ("so and so", or "face to face"). Thinking about those cases reminds me obliquely of discussing Ellipsis (linguistics) in my undergraduate syntax class 15-odd years ago, where exploring whether there was an unspoken "null" component to the syntax being parsed, or whether the phrase structure didn't require that component, provided a great deal of insight into the general analysis of syntax. Here is a Stack Exchange post discussing these binomials, though I don't necessarily agree with the way they reached their conclusion (by simply applying the definition of "irreversible" to conclude that where the words are identical they are therefore reversible). 199.66.69.67 (talk) 11:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

When the conjuncts have a natural temporal order, as in beginning to end, the binomials tend to conform to that order. This includes bait and switch, catch and release, cause and effect, come and go, cut and paste, duck and cover, hide and seek, hither and thither, lost and found, name and address, over and out, research and development, start to finish, tar and feathers, and up and about. Otherwise, when one conjunct is a monosyllabic and the other is polysyllabic, the monosyllabic one tends to go first, as in bells and whistles, bread and roses, cloak and dagger, death and taxes, fast and furious, fine and dandy, fire and brimstone, hale and hearty, high and mighty, lo and behold, nice and easy, nook and cranny, rape and pillage, slow and steady, smoke and mirrors, vim and vigor, and warm and fuzzy. However, there are plenty of exceptions, such as bacon and eggs and tables and chairs. Also, this rule cannot explain the order of the many binomials in which both conjuncts are monosyllabic; why not bolts and nuts?  --Lambiam 11:57, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

You ever try slipping a nut over the backside of a bolt? Don't. Or wear thick gloves, at least! InedibleHulk (talk) 16:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Only yesterday I finished reading Caught in the Web of Words, the story of Sir James Murray (lexicographer) and the genesis of the Oxford English Dictionary. A few things caught my eye, including his use of the phrase "tear-and-wear" (p. 309). He was from the Scottish Borders, and maybe that's the way they say it up there. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

"Notwithstanding their influence, we apprehend, however, that dictionary-makers are on the whole an oppressed race, doomed to more than their due share of obscure drudgery. […]" A doomed race, they're calling themselves. --Askedonty (talk) 20:00, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

That's funny, I was just talking about this with someone. They said that it has something to do with where the vowels are vocalized in the mouth. Like you start with the the word that's made closer to the throat, and end with the word that's made in the front of the mouth. (I don't know the technical terms for this, sorry.) Almost all the examples given above adhere to this pattern. Wikipedia's examples of what are apparently called "ablaut duplications" fit this pattern as well. Temerarius (talk) 05:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all the replies. It seems there are several possible explanations for how any particular order might have developed, and as usual in language, there are exceptions and irregularities. It's worth noting that my initial puzzle was with pairs of words that have usage outside of particular idioms or exclamations, but which still maintain the defined order wherever they are used together (so this excludes pairs such as 'cloak and dagger' or 'lo and behold' etc., which I think have very prescribed usage). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:43, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Young Princess Mary never getting married

How come Henry VIII's eldest daughter Mary never got married in her youth while she was a princess before her father's death? 86.129.17.70 (talk) 14:51, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

See the third paragraph of Mary I of England#Childhood. The marriage of a princess was an important matter of international diplomacy and alliance, and was utilised to secure the most valuable political outcome possible. Several such marriages were planned, proposed or discussed, but all of these arrangements fell through or were not pursued for one reason or another. Subsequently Henry had his marriage to her mother Catherine of Aragon, who could evidently not provide him with a male heir, annulled and married his pregnant mistress Anne Boleyn. This rendered Mary legally illegitimate and therefore a much less desirable spouse, and put her at personal odds with her father. After Anne's execution when Mary was 20 years old, things got really complicated. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.27.125 (talk) 22:49, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes see the First Succession Act 1534 (when Mary had just turned 18) which laid out the reasons that Henry's marriage to Catherine had been annulled and "that the children proceeding and procreated under such unlawful marriage, shall not be lawful nor legitimate; any foreign laws, licences, dispensations, or other thing or things to the contrary thereof notwithstanding". [3] Also Mary was an avowed Catholic which would make marriage to a Protestant prince problematic, and Henry's break with Rome strained relations with the Catholic powers in Europe. Alansplodge (talk) 10:48, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

June 15

Captain Ford, Hawaiian Cavalry

Trying to find who the Captain Ford mentioned in this is. My guess is Seth Porter Ford but can't find any direct references. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Captain de Marigney of the Alcibiade,

Trying to find the full name of a Captain de Marigney of the French brig of war Alcibiade. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:31, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

A. Enguerrand de Marigny (different spelling) [4]
Sleigh (talk) 00:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:24, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Japanese prince studying in London in 1894

Were there any Japanese princes studying in London in 1894? Also who was the Japanese prince abroad the Japanese cruiser Naniwa in 1893? Most likely different people. It would have been one of the princes of the Shinnōke and Ōke branches. KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

For the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1897, "it was decided to send a delegation headed by Prince Arisugawa (Takehito Shinno no Maya) who had completed his education as a naval officer in England, being the first prince of the blood to study abroad". [5] Not sure if that's your man. Alansplodge (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, its not him, he studied at Greenwich in 1881 [6] (see footnote 11). Alansplodge (talk) 10:53, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Earliest Chinese script found outside of China

Were there any early Chinese scripts (such as imprinted on trade goods) discovered outside of China dating before Han Dynasty? If not what was the earliest artifact containing Chinese script found outside of China. 47.39.38.154 (talk) 07:23, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Short stories in the voice of a psychiatrist/ counsellor

I remember reading a (fiction) book that consisted of short stories or anecdotes recounted in the first person by a psyhciatrist or a counsellor. I remember two plotlines in particular:

• a woman who was a fabulist who made up stories, claiming to have been on a date with a man called M who had only one arm
• a young man who had been babied by his nanny until the age of 18 and who couldn't build a romantic relationship with anyone, who was eventually advised just to date himself and found that that worked; it later turned out he had a missing twin so was really just searching for himself.

Can anyone remind me what this book is? Amisom (talk) 08:16, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Basic philosophy of politics

Is it correct to say that politics reduced to its bare core, is a debate on what natural human nature is and how to organise society from knowing that?

I know how to organise society will likely always be up for debate but are there still debates on what natural human nature is or is that generally agreed upon with the scientific knowledge we have today? Clover345 (talk) 09:36, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello, Clover345. There is certainly still a debate on what human nature is. I'm just reading Humankind, by Rutger Bregman, in which he explores several of the events that have strongly favoured a Hobbesian view of human nature (that it is 'nasty, brutish and short' until Leviathan - government - comes along to control us), and shows that each of them has been significantly misreported and altered: he is championing a view closer to that of Rousseau, that the earth was a paradise for humans until we got agriculture and cities. --ColinFine (talk) 11:32, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, that is interesting. I assume modern day science has contributed to this discussion? But I suppose it is quite difficult to prove what human nature is? Clover345 (talk) 11:51, 15 June 2020 (UTC)