Talk:Gamergate (harassment campaign): Difference between revisions
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:Hi J0eg0d. I'm aware of the report, and the report would be regarded as reliable. The problem is that it is also a primary source, so generally we would have to wait for secondary sources to evaluate its findings. As it stands there isn't much we can say through using it other than perhaps noting that WAM found incidents of reported harassment that they identified as coming from Gamergate supporters, simply because any further analysis of the findings is original research, which we are not permitted to do. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 04:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
:Hi J0eg0d. I'm aware of the report, and the report would be regarded as reliable. The problem is that it is also a primary source, so generally we would have to wait for secondary sources to evaluate its findings. As it stands there isn't much we can say through using it other than perhaps noting that WAM found incidents of reported harassment that they identified as coming from Gamergate supporters, simply because any further analysis of the findings is original research, which we are not permitted to do. - [[User:Bilby|Bilby]] ([[User talk:Bilby|talk]]) 04:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::There's no requirement to wait on secondary sources to include a primary source. We actually have already alluded that WAM was doing this study already (that was noted by third-party sources), so it's fair to include it. We can report what they claim without any problems (stuff like their finding that only 12% of the tweets they monitered were GG related.) --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
::There's no requirement to wait on secondary sources to include a primary source. We actually have already alluded that WAM was doing this study already (that was noted by third-party sources), so it's fair to include it. We can report what they claim without any problems (stuff like their finding that only 12% of the tweets they monitered were GG related.) --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
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:::Just as a note, however, outside of how they describe GG in a more neutral tone, the only data I see that really applies immediately to the GG is this 12% number ("During a study performed by WAM from (date to date) on harassment engaged on Twitter, they found that Gamergate-related events accounted for 12% of their total activity.") The bulk of the rest is about online harassment in general and/or Twitter. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
:::Just as a note, however, outside of how they describe GG in a more neutral tone, the only data I see that really applies immediately to the GG is this 12% number ("During a study performed by WAM from (date to date) on harassment engaged on Twitter, they found that Gamergate-related events accounted for 12% of their total activity.") The bulk of the rest is about online harassment in general and/or Twitter. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC) |
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::::An article by [https://www.fastcompany.com/3046262/tech-forecast/a-snapshot-of-how-twitter-deals-with-online-harassment Fast Company] by [https://www.fastcompany.com/user/sarah-kessler Sarah Kessler] extends the narrative of the 12% findings - originally sourced on [http://www.womenactionmedia.org/twitter-report/ Women Of Action Media]; <br/> |
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<small>Gamergate made up only a small percentage of reports of online harassment. Though the Gamergate controversy has been one the most visible stories about online harassment in the mainstream media over the past year or two, only about 12% of the 512 alleged harassing accounts reported to WAM could be linked to it.</small> <br/> |
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::::Kessler also noted that Twitter only deleted ONE ACCOUNT in response to the 161 reports of harassments, which lends to the same narrative that the findings presented by Women Of Action Media had determined either no really threats had occurred or Twitter was biased in removing the accounts.<br/> |
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::::Additionally an article from September 2014, [http://gamepolitics.com/2014/09/29/poll-results-what-gamergate Game Politics] carried a POLL asking "What Is #GamerGate About?" <br /> |
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<small>Around 1,855 votes were cast (our second largest poll ever), with the majority of them going to the option, rooting out malfeasance in game journalism. Around 70% of the votes (1,298 votes) said that the Twitter hashtag #gamergate represents finding and eliminating alleged corruption in journalism. Around 13% (242 votes) said that it really depended on the person using the hashtag. While six% (119 votes) said it was about silencing those who talk about gender issues in video games. And around 5% (91 votes) said that the hashtag was meant to show that "not all gamers" are bad people. Finally, 4% (77 votes) said that they didn't know what #gamergate is & 2% (28 votes) said the #gamergate hashtag is about eliminating discussions on cultural differences in video games.</small> [http://www.gamepolitics.com/files/gp_poll_sept232014_0.jpg Poll Image] <br /> |
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::::The current GamerGate Controversy WIKI is lacking news articles that credit any retort to the main controversy: Being #gamergate is simply a hashtag and it is used in support of the ethics in journalism. Another website similar to {www.womenactionmedia.org/why-wam/what-we-do/ WAM], known as [http://deepfreeze.it/ Deep Freeze] researches the alleged corruption of gaming journalists. Some of whom have written the very articles provided in the current GamerGate_Controversy WIKI. Let alone these same journalist confer with one another through a mailing list on their [https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/GameJournoPros Google Group Community]. It was first reported by [http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/21/gamejournopros-we-reveal-every-journalist-on-the-list/ BreitBart]. It included '''[http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/18/the-emails-that-prove-video-games-journalism-must-be-reformed/ the contents of those emails along with the original email addresses]'''. Needless to say WIKI demands "viable" news coverages, and the articles provided have credibility issues with the people writing them. <br /> |
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--[[User:J0eg0d|j0eg0d]] ([[User talk:J0eg0d|talk]]) 00:55, 19 May 2015 (UTC) |
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Topic Shift: to hat or not to hat (and the Topic original can go archive)
collapse top|There is absolutely no way the article is improved with this meta-discussion of alleged censorship. This talk page is not a forum. If you believe an editor is unjustly hatting, unhat what they have hatted. If they continue doing so, bring it to any of the many conflict resolution avenues available. PeterTheFourth (talk) 12:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
(Edit conflict)
WP:HORSEMEAT. WP:NOTAFORUM. Read the FAQ and archives. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
lol for fucking ever @ lecturing Jorm about how we do things on wikipedia. Protonk (talk) 20:03, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure this falls under WP:NOTAFORUM ForbiddenRocky (talk) 07:22, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
@Gamaliel: Hi. Sorry to bother you, but seeing as you were the last administrator to step in this is your punishment for your good deeds. What dispute resolution steps could I take re: Chrisrus being disruptive by constantly unhatting and posting in a long, useless section on the talk page? It seems just minor enough to not really be actionable, but it is incredibly annoying and it also seems to be done for no real reason other than to be irksome. PeterTheFourth (talk) 21:08, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
Once again, this thread has been closed and hidden on no valid grounds. This time, however, neither was it closed and hidden with any reference to any guideline or rule. Therefore, I will open it again after an appropriate amount of time. First, this thread was closed and hidden without any reference to any guideline, rule, or long-standing wide-spread practice supporting the closing or the hiding or this thread. For this reason alone, I plan to open and show it once again as soon as appropriate. Second, this thread was closed and hidden "...because it has zero to do about article content..." Again, here on Wikipedia, article talk page management discussions about a specific article's supporting talk page occur on that talk page and this is on topic. This is the proper place for discussion of how this talk page, which supports this article, has been and/or should deal with common thread types. Article talk pages are the place such "meta-talk page" discussions occur all over Wikipedia. For example, discussion of changes or additions to the FAQs may occur here, even though FAQs only appear on the article's supporting talk page. Therefore, this discussion is on-topic and so this justification for closing and hiding the thread is invalid and also for this reason I plan to undo that as soon as appropriate. Second, the thread was closed and hidden on the grounds that it "has become a way for editors to pontificate". It is not at all clear what this means in this context, so as clear grounds should accompany closing and hiding threads, I'll be justified in showing and opening it again. However, "to pontificate" in this case seems to mean "to express your opinion about something in a way that shows that you think you are right and others wrong about something." Or perhaps "pontificate" means "to embarrass others by civilly presenting a clear argument with valid evidence and good reasoning, and proper rhetoric" and just doing everything exactly as we are supposed to. But that is exactly what should be done on Wikipedia in such contexts, so the accusation is of doing everything right, but making others defensive and upset by doing so. There is nothing in these words that should stop anyone from showing and opening the discussion again. Third, this thread was closed and hidden on the grounds that it has become a way for unspecified editors "to carry on a proxy battle". Again, it is not at all clear what this means in this context, so as it is wrong to close and hide threads without giving a clear reason, I will re-open it as soon as appropriate. However, it would seem the editor is of the belief that those editors arguing for a return to standard hatting practice are part of some conspiracy or something. This is not true, at least in my case, as I am a proxy of no one but myself. However, although the burden of proof for such an accusation lies with he who makes it, I can assure you there will be none forthcoming as it's completely false and is a violation of WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. Threads closed and hidden on grounds that violate WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, should be reopened and shown. After I open and show this thread again, please don't undo it without replying substantively to these points here first. Chrisrus (talk) 08:02, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
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As you will see if you open this thread, it has been shown, and not disputed, that the expressed grounds for closing and hiding this thread ("Closing this discussion because it has zero to do about article content and has become a way for editors to pontificate or use as a proxy battle. If you want a discussion to remain open, then participate in that discussion in a productive way") are invalid. As if that were not enough to justify my reopening and showing the thread, neither do these grounds contain reference to any policy. Therefore, I will open it again. The last time I did this, it was mentioned on my talk page and in the revert edit summary that there are some other, valid grounds that are the real grounds upon which this post was closed and hidden, not the one being invoked above. Therefore, if you, as I expect, plan to close and hide this thread once again, do so under those supposedly valid grounds or some other valid grounds, and contain a valid reference to policy, but do not simply revert to these same policy-referent-linkless-repeadedly-shown-to-be-and-so-far-indisputedly invalid grounds again. I will wait an appropriate amount of time before showing and re-opening this thread to hear out anyone who would like to urge me not to. Chrisrus (talk) 04:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC) Would you stop it already? WP:TE ForbiddenRocky (talk) 10:01, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
If the thread weren't hidden, your answer would be visible. I will cut-and=paste the previous answer from inside the hidden portion of this thread here below, but most importantly, it was closed and hidden with no reference to policy, no link to a rule or guideline. Here is the entire explanation for the invalidity of the given justification for closing and hiding this thread, cut-and-pasted from above:
Once again, this thread has been closed and hidden on no valid grounds. This time, however, neither was it closed and hidden with any reference to any guideline or rule. Therefore, I will open it again after an appropriate amount of time. First, this thread was closed and hidden without any reference to any guideline, rule, or long-standing wide-spread practice supporting the closing or the hiding or this thread. For this reason alone, I plan to open and show it once again as soon as appropriate. Second, this thread was closed and hidden "...because it has zero to do about article content..." Again, here on Wikipedia, article talk page management discussions about a specific article's supporting talk page occur on that talk page and this is on topic. This is the proper place for discussion of how this talk page, which supports this article, has been and/or should deal with common thread types. Article talk pages are the place such "meta-talk page" discussions occur all over Wikipedia. For example, discussion of changes or additions to the FAQs may occur here, even though FAQs only appear on the article's supporting talk page. Therefore, this discussion is on-topic and so this justification for closing and hiding the thread is invalid and also for this reason I plan to undo that as soon as appropriate. Second, the thread was closed and hidden on the grounds that it "has become a way for editors to pontificate". It is not at all clear what this means in this context, so as clear grounds should accompany closing and hiding threads, I'll be justified in showing and opening it again. However, "to pontificate" in this case seems to mean "to express your opinion about something in a way that shows that you think you are right and others wrong about something." Or perhaps "pontificate" means "to embarrass others by civilly presenting a clear argument with valid evidence and good reasoning, and proper rhetoric" and just doing everything exactly as we are supposed to. But that is exactly what should be done on Wikipedia in such contexts, so the accusation is of doing everything right, but making others defensive and upset by doing so. There is nothing in these words that should stop anyone from showing and opening the discussion again. Third, this thread was closed and hidden on the grounds that it has become a way for unspecified editors "to carry on a proxy battle". Again, it is not at all clear what this means in this context, so as it is wrong to close and hide threads without giving a clear reason, I will re-open it as soon as appropriate. However, it would seem the editor is of the belief that those editors arguing for a return to standard hatting practice are part of some conspiracy or something. This is not true, at least in my case, as I am a proxy of no one but myself. However, although the burden of proof for such an accusation lies with he who makes it, I can assure you there will be none forthcoming as it's completely false and is a violation of WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH. Threads closed and hidden on grounds that violate WP:ASSUMEGOODFAITH, should be reopened and shown. After I open and show this thread again, please don't undo it without replying substantively to these points here first.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisrus (talk • contribs) 13:04, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
@Chrisrus: I am quite capable of opening closed discussions to see what occurred therein. And I am still confused. I asked on what grounds the closing was invalid, and you pasted a wall of text saying the closing was invalid. Restating a conclusory statement is not supplying a rationale. Where does it say a topic closing must come with a reference to policy? Where is the enumerated list of valid reasons for topic closing? Why have the closing function (and not simply the archive function)? Uninvolved administrators may close discussions, correct? Do you agree that Gamaliel is an uninvolved administrator? This entire conversation seems to me like it would be better had elsewhere, rather than a topic talk page. Dumuzid (talk) 15:22, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
At this point this discussion is not about GGC. Could you please move it somewhere else? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
@ForbiddenRocky: Meta talk page discussions, i.e.: discussions about the talk pages supporting articles, belong on the talk page in question. Otherwise, discussions of such things as what projects the talk page should feature, would not belong on that page. Talk pages do not have talk pages of their own, so there is no better place. Chrisrus (talk) 19:39, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
This is a meta-discussion. It doesn't belong here. The original topic archived. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 04:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
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@Gamaliel: What new accounts? What does your closing and hiding of this thread have to do with new accounts editing the article? The thread had nothing to do with new accounts editing the article or not editing it. We were talking about how people respond to reader feedback on the talk page, not editing the article. What kind of grounds for closing and hiding a thread is this? As the grounds given for closing and hiding this thread make no sense whatsoever, I will open it again after waiting an appropriate amount of time. Chrisrus (talk) 20:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- You seem to have missed half of the changes. They're not allowed to edit the talk page either now. That's why this conversation is redundant Bosstopher (talk) 20:50, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Chrisrus again unilaterally declares that "the grounds given for closing and hiding this thread make no sense." They make sense to the rest of us. This is simply disruptive editing. Will someone please take the appropriate steps already? Thanks! MarkBernstein (talk) 21:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm curious. Under what conditions do you think it would be appropriate to hat a discussion on this particular talk page? Gamaliel (talk) 22:03, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- You ask me this about "this particular talk page", but I thought it was clear that the request was for threads to be treated here no differently than any other talk page. It is especially important for this particular talk page, because it's so widely watched, that it should stand as a positive example and avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Chrisrus (talk) 03:44, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- The question was investigating the basis for your opposition to the hatting of this section—do you think a section on this talk page should ever be hatted? under what conditions? Are you saying "never"? Or are you saying "just like other talk pages"? If the latter, that's not very helpful because what is wanted is for this section to stop, so please say what condition would need to apply for that happen. Ultimately, a disgreement over hatting on this talk page is irrelevant because (as I noted at your talk), an administrative decision on hatting will have to be made. Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- The question was about "this particular talk page".
- My answer to your questions is "Just like other talk pages". Restore standard operating procedure.
- Close threads as per usual, such as for example RfCs whose time is up, off-topic discussions, and the like.
- Closing AND hiding threads is not the same. That's quite a bit more serious because it looks really bad, we at Wikipedia are not in the business of hiding things, and we only do that in cases of serious BLP-type violations or harassment and so on. We are all about openness, not closing and hiding unless we have no choice.
- We're all about openness, but we are also about verification and undoing what doesn't check out. Here threads were routinely being hidden and closed that pn any other talk page are just allowed to age off into the archives, and with justifications that contained claims of fact that didn't check out, even make sense, or even constitute a justification at all. Who does that? Where else is this done? It's unprecedented and I fear for the future of Wikipedia if it this precedent spreads to other articles and areas of Wikipedia. Chrisrus (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- In sum, the usual. You should know; just look at some other busy talk pages. When closing and hiding threads, cryptic ipse dixit justifications are not used, but rather clear justifications with reference to specific policy that we can verify and if it doesn't check out reopen and show.
- The way that this talk page is being run in positively un-Wikipedian and should be nipped in the bud before it spreads. Chrisrus (talk) 04:54, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- That is not necessarily true. I've seen discussions that stray from the topic of improving editing of the article and wander into forum-style chit chat be hatted although, personally, I'd prefer that they not be collapsed. But discussion threads are hatted for reasons other than BLP violations. Of course, the hatting can be challenged by any editor but if the consensus is to hat the discussion, then it should be hatted. Liz Read! Talk! 12:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Liz:The fact that discussions which have gone off topic are sometimes closed does not contradict off-topic discussions being a good example of they type of thread that is sometimes closed.
- Offering BLP-type violations as an example of the type of thread which is not only closed but also hidden is not the same as saying that only threads with BLP-type violations are hidden.
- This cannot be treated like "any other talk page" because of the many months of conflict, the Arbitration case, the discretionary sanctions, and the specific restrictions placed on this article and talk page. Hatting threads is not "hiding things". Those threads and archives that are hatted and removed from this page are not deleted, they are permanently preserved for all to see. But this page is a work space and it must address the needs of the editors actively working on this article and should be used for discussions about proposed edits to the article, not the thousandth iteration of a drive-by complaint or long manifestos about principles of openness. I have yet to see how any of your comments relate to how this space should function in the former way, and unless you are willing to address how your demands would facilitate editing on this particular article and in these particular circumstances, future remarks from you should remain off this page. Gamaliel (talk) 17:13, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- What did you mean by "drive by complaints"?
- What is the connection between "drive by complaints" and that case?
- For example:
- Reader: "I think this article is not as good as it could be. Please improve it somehow."
- Established Editor: "Can you give us something more specific? You're not really giving us much to work with here."
- Reader: (says no more, because it's a "drive-by complaint".)
- On this talk page, will you close, not just close but also collapse, or allow this type of thread to age into the archives?
- Also, how might you word the statement that accompanies a close or a close and collapse? Chrisrus (talk) 04:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- That is not necessarily true. I've seen discussions that stray from the topic of improving editing of the article and wander into forum-style chit chat be hatted although, personally, I'd prefer that they not be collapsed. But discussion threads are hatted for reasons other than BLP violations. Of course, the hatting can be challenged by any editor but if the consensus is to hat the discussion, then it should be hatted. Liz Read! Talk! 12:09, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- The question was investigating the basis for your opposition to the hatting of this section—do you think a section on this talk page should ever be hatted? under what conditions? Are you saying "never"? Or are you saying "just like other talk pages"? If the latter, that's not very helpful because what is wanted is for this section to stop, so please say what condition would need to apply for that happen. Ultimately, a disgreement over hatting on this talk page is irrelevant because (as I noted at your talk), an administrative decision on hatting will have to be made. Johnuniq (talk) 04:00, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- You ask me this about "this particular talk page", but I thought it was clear that the request was for threads to be treated here no differently than any other talk page. It is especially important for this particular talk page, because it's so widely watched, that it should stand as a positive example and avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Chrisrus (talk) 03:44, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
"harassment campaign" -> "pre-Gamergate harassment"
Uh, no. This completely softens the language and implies that "gamergate" didn't exist until after the harassment started, which isn't a claim that is true. I'd revert but I'd run afoul of 1RR.--Jorm (talk) 06:01, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I agree and made the change back to "the harassment campaign." Dumuzid (talk) 06:23, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- When Zoe Quinn was being harassed though, it started under "The Quinnspiracy" or so I think Ylevental (talk) 07:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I honestly think this page should be named "Gamergate Harassment Campaign".--Jorm (talk) 06:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- It'd certainly be more accurate to the more recent articles which take a broader look at the event. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This could be a win-win situation for both sides actually. The pro-gg side would be told that this page only describes the harassment associated with gamergate. Ylevental (talk) 07:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's not about sides so much as it's about accurately reporting what the reliable sources say. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This could be a win-win situation for both sides actually. The pro-gg side would be told that this page only describes the harassment associated with gamergate. Ylevental (talk) 07:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- It'd certainly be more accurate to the more recent articles which take a broader look at the event. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:31, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- And no sources have identified a gamergate supporter that has harassed anyone. They are all anonymous. IRL persons that actually are identified with GamerGate (i.e. Milo, Sommers, Baldwin, etc) aren't involved in harassment. This dichotomy is not trivial and splitting it into the anonymous harassment vs. the named movement will help define the article. By not splitting it, the line is blury and we fuel misinformation. Milo in particular has faced a lot of the same threats/fear/hatred that were thrust upon gamergate victims. The bomb threat in DC was only the latest. I'd go so far as to say anyone that has been named is a victim of harassment whether pro-GG or against-GG. --DHeyward (talk) 07:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I would <BLPREDACT>, but the article I'm thinking of that he's published contains BLP violations. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Funny, that never stopped anyone before. More specifically, only you think it is harassment. Find a reliable source that calls it harassment and we'll talk. I could say the same thing about all the named anti-GGers too. "I would link to some of the harassment performed by <insert name here>, but the article I'm thinking of that s/he's published contains BLP violations." See how hilariously and grotesquely hollow that sounds? --DHeyward (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to ignore the baiting- I have no interest <redact BLP violation and PA> PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- It simply should be renamed to reflect that it's anonymous harrassers attacking living people. That's what the article chronicles. --DHeyward (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Gamergate Harassment Campaign"- a harassment campaign orchestrated by those who use or support the gamergate hashtag. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Gamergate Harassment Campaign"- a harassment campaign orchestrated by anonymous people using the #GamerGate hashtag against public figures fighting sexism in gaming. It spurred a similar response by anonymous people opposing GamerGate by harassing public figures that believe sexism in gaming is not the biggest cultural issue of the 21st century." --DHeyward (talk) 09:46, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Gamergate Harassment Campaign"- a harassment campaign orchestrated by those who use or support the gamergate hashtag. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- It simply should be renamed to reflect that it's anonymous harrassers attacking living people. That's what the article chronicles. --DHeyward (talk) 08:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to ignore the baiting- I have no interest <redact BLP violation and PA> PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:30, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Funny, that never stopped anyone before. More specifically, only you think it is harassment. Find a reliable source that calls it harassment and we'll talk. I could say the same thing about all the named anti-GGers too. "I would link to some of the harassment performed by <insert name here>, but the article I'm thinking of that s/he's published contains BLP violations." See how hilariously and grotesquely hollow that sounds? --DHeyward (talk) 08:24, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I would <BLPREDACT>, but the article I'm thinking of that he's published contains BLP violations. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:59, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- And no sources have identified a gamergate supporter that has harassed anyone. They are all anonymous. IRL persons that actually are identified with GamerGate (i.e. Milo, Sommers, Baldwin, etc) aren't involved in harassment. This dichotomy is not trivial and splitting it into the anonymous harassment vs. the named movement will help define the article. By not splitting it, the line is blury and we fuel misinformation. Milo in particular has faced a lot of the same threats/fear/hatred that were thrust upon gamergate victims. The bomb threat in DC was only the latest. I'd go so far as to say anyone that has been named is a victim of harassment whether pro-GG or against-GG. --DHeyward (talk) 07:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Even if you consider Quinn's IRC logs that she claims she had to show when GG started, the timing of everything is so muddled between the posting of Gjoni's post, the initial accusations about Quinn + Grayson, the calls for ethics, and Adam Baldwin introducing the term that we don't know the chicken from the egg here. However, I do understand that if someone say "pre-GG harassment" they are talking about anything pre-August 2014, such as the cited cases in 2012 of Sarkseeian being harassed, or the earlier stuff Quinn had for the initial release of DQ. Nearly all sources treat the "start" of GG as August or last August 2014. (Mind you, I agree with reverting the addition of "pre-GG harassment" in the article as it was done so, irregardless of when GG started, Quinn is universally considered the first target of harassment within GG, even if she was harassed before). --MASEM (t) 12:41, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- it's fairly easy to delineate. Pre-GG there was no galvanized criticism. Sarkeesian was relatively unknown but had her set of detractors for the Tropes series. Quinn was trying to get a twine game released by steam which drew some criticism (twine is widely considered to be a progressive space). The only intersection between them were progressive causes. Gaming journalists, too, were criticised for funding twine games. This was all pre-GG. Gjoni unleashed his post. There were two reactions. One was from Baldwin, et al, that highlighted Grayson's role as journalist but the apparent lack of distance from someone associated with a cause (i.e. depression awareness/DQ) trying to shape gaming. As far as I know, Baldwin had never commented before on Sarkeesian but generally opposed exteral influences on gaming. The second thing that happened was harassment of Quinn which galvanized Sarkeesian (then later, Wu, et al). I think it's very clear distinction and not muddled at all. For Baldwin, the Gjoni post was largely an affirmation of how game journalists were tied to progressive causes. For others it was simply an excuse to harass and threaten Quinn. The harassment and threats fit in with Sarkeesian's views of gaming culture and she pointed it out. For those like Baldwin that want to keep politics out of games, it never strayed from criticizing attempts to influence games and game development. For those like Sarkeesian, it never strayed from being an extension of the sexism in gaming culture. What I think is being convoluted is the various responses to Gjoni's post being dumbed down into "Quinn was criticised for..." when in fact, it's pretty clear from the investigations that followed and the history of Baldwin is that he was criticising Grayson. We muddle it by either being vague about it, or always describing it as if Quinn's behavior drove all the fallout. That's simply not the case. The allegation we recite that <redact BLP violation> It's like we wrote about a bank robbery with "A bank teller allegedly traded money for her life." --DHeyward (talk) 18:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I can't believe some folks are still discussing Quinn's sex life. It's funny how the focus was never on who other video game journalists slept with, they were never put under this ridiculous microscope and online scrutiny. Either way, sex is only important in the minds of Gamergate conspiracy theorists, not in this article. Liz Read! Talk! 21:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- So you realize that I am proposing we take it out and talk about Grayson instead as it is his actions that came under scrutiny, not Quinn's. <redacted > --DHeyward (talk) 06:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- There is no reason to skirt so close to BLP like this. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 07:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- So you realize that I am proposing we take it out and talk about Grayson instead as it is his actions that came under scrutiny, not Quinn's. <redacted > --DHeyward (talk) 06:19, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Draft a sentence or two w/o mentioning previously identified BLP issues . Don't get meta on the talk page, just draft the sentences that might address Grayson w/o wandering into the mentioned BLP issues and w/o using RS that have BLP issues, also. I suggest you post the sentences here on the talk page rather than be too BOLD, but at least show us. And stop bringing up the BLP issue on the talk page. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:55, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Here's the article edit I made. [1]. I already made other edits a couple days ago.[2]. Why anyone has a reading comprehension problem that it was a discussion about anyone's private life is beyond me. Read people. --DHeyward (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Please remember to assume good faith about fellow editors and remain civil, DHeyward. PeterTheFourth (talk) 00:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Here's the article edit I made. [1]. I already made other edits a couple days ago.[2]. Why anyone has a reading comprehension problem that it was a discussion about anyone's private life is beyond me. Read people. --DHeyward (talk) 20:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- I can't believe some folks are still discussing Quinn's sex life. It's funny how the focus was never on who other video game journalists slept with, they were never put under this ridiculous microscope and online scrutiny. Either way, sex is only important in the minds of Gamergate conspiracy theorists, not in this article. Liz Read! Talk! 21:35, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- it's fairly easy to delineate. Pre-GG there was no galvanized criticism. Sarkeesian was relatively unknown but had her set of detractors for the Tropes series. Quinn was trying to get a twine game released by steam which drew some criticism (twine is widely considered to be a progressive space). The only intersection between them were progressive causes. Gaming journalists, too, were criticised for funding twine games. This was all pre-GG. Gjoni unleashed his post. There were two reactions. One was from Baldwin, et al, that highlighted Grayson's role as journalist but the apparent lack of distance from someone associated with a cause (i.e. depression awareness/DQ) trying to shape gaming. As far as I know, Baldwin had never commented before on Sarkeesian but generally opposed exteral influences on gaming. The second thing that happened was harassment of Quinn which galvanized Sarkeesian (then later, Wu, et al). I think it's very clear distinction and not muddled at all. For Baldwin, the Gjoni post was largely an affirmation of how game journalists were tied to progressive causes. For others it was simply an excuse to harass and threaten Quinn. The harassment and threats fit in with Sarkeesian's views of gaming culture and she pointed it out. For those like Baldwin that want to keep politics out of games, it never strayed from criticizing attempts to influence games and game development. For those like Sarkeesian, it never strayed from being an extension of the sexism in gaming culture. What I think is being convoluted is the various responses to Gjoni's post being dumbed down into "Quinn was criticised for..." when in fact, it's pretty clear from the investigations that followed and the history of Baldwin is that he was criticising Grayson. We muddle it by either being vague about it, or always describing it as if Quinn's behavior drove all the fallout. That's simply not the case. The allegation we recite that <redact BLP violation> It's like we wrote about a bank robbery with "A bank teller allegedly traded money for her life." --DHeyward (talk) 18:15, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, @Liz:, I have to disagree with you about this: sex is very important because it is so very useful. Every time we get dragged into discussing the details of the sex lives of female software developers, that’s another warning that helps keep women out of the field. Develop games while you're female, and they’ll write about your sex life here and send the clippings to your aged mother, or your kids’ classmates. It’s interesting, too, how we're so scrupulous about redacting a mistake that credited a male journalist with a B.A. rather than a B.S., but when we start talking about the right way to discuss Zoe Quinn’s sex life, well, that’s fine and dandy. (I'm wondering whether the "investigation" was some kids sending emails between rounds of Call Of Duty, or something substantive but unreported...) MarkBernstein (talk) 21:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- You see, @Liz:, I was right. Not only did we need to discuss Quinn’s sex life, but now we're edit-warring an additional long paragraph that argues in detail that we've got to discuss it -- but in a completely different way. Not the way our sources discuss it, because they're sexist! Nasty New Yorker! Bad Boston Magazine~! In fact, we need to go through the whole article, apparently, and examine every little bit of sex again from multiple angles, because .... tanks tops and short shorts, or something. Sigh. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Well, then I think we should examine the sex lives of journalists like Grayson and Milo to make sure they aren't asking for sex for positive media coverage...I've read these "allegations" online so who knows if they are false or unproven?! It's really about ethics in journalism, isn't it? So, let's put these dudes private lives under a microscope to make sure they are ethical. I mean, that's the heart of GamerGate, right? It's essential to this piece to include the truth. Liz Read! Talk! 00:40, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- You see, @Liz:, I was right. Not only did we need to discuss Quinn’s sex life, but now we're edit-warring an additional long paragraph that argues in detail that we've got to discuss it -- but in a completely different way. Not the way our sources discuss it, because they're sexist! Nasty New Yorker! Bad Boston Magazine~! In fact, we need to go through the whole article, apparently, and examine every little bit of sex again from multiple angles, because .... tanks tops and short shorts, or something. Sigh. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:03, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
New page-level sanctions in place
NOTE Pursuant to an Arbitration Enforcement request, only accounts with at least 500 edits and are at least 30 days old may edit this article and its Talk page. Edits from accounts that do not meet these minimum requirements may be removed (without counting toward any "revert-rule" counting), but please leave a courteous edit summary indicating why the edit is being removed. Zad68
19:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- This is a "starting now, going forward" page-level sanction (for both the article and this Talk page). Edits made previous to this placement of this notification are not retroactively affected by it.
Zad68
20:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why did you do this? Chrisrus (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- This makes little sense to me - it is some sort of new protection level, which can only be manually enforced, and doesn't seem to address any existing problems on the page. In particular, it seems problematic to prevent people from commenting on the talk page - it is uncomfortable enough to say that only autoconfirmed editors can express an opinion here, but the more we restrict that without clear evidence of a problem, the further we move away from the core philosophy of Wikipedia. - Bilby (talk) 13:00, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. I cannot concur that preventing editors from commenting on article talk pages aligns with our core principles. I believe that we would be better served applying the policies & guidelines with rigorous impartiality.
- Please note that I have asked a procedural question regarding this page level restriction on Zad68's Talk page here. - Ryk72 'c.s.n.s.' 13:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- This makes little sense to me - it is some sort of new protection level, which can only be manually enforced, and doesn't seem to address any existing problems on the page. In particular, it seems problematic to prevent people from commenting on the talk page - it is uncomfortable enough to say that only autoconfirmed editors can express an opinion here, but the more we restrict that without clear evidence of a problem, the further we move away from the core philosophy of Wikipedia. - Bilby (talk) 13:00, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Why did you do this? Chrisrus (talk) 12:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
The history and reasons for these page-level sanctions can be found at this WP:AE request. They are indefinite, not infinite, and a request to lift them may be made in the future. Zad68
14:05, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I can't see adequate justification for this additional level of protection. Has there been a significant problem of accounts under this limit editing on the talk page? Looking back over the last month, I can only find three editors with accounts less than 30 days old, and none of them were difficult to handle or engaged in anything that warranted revdel. - Bilby (talk) 14:28, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I've made a VPM post to discuss the decision over here. I do not have 500 contribs; I have 439 en.wiki contribs at time of writing and 487 Wikimedia project contribs in total. Nonetheless, I'd appreciate administrative discretion in leaving this post up (assuming the removal isn't automated) Thanks, Riffraffselbow (talk) (contribs) 01:39, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
Hugo awards
I don't know much about Gamergate, but the "In other media" section on the Hugo Awards seems to have been written in a way meant to bias readers learning about what happened during this year's nominations, specifically: the use of the word "hijacked," only mentioning Vox Day, who is easily the most odious Puppy, and relying solely on an opinion article written by a virulent detractor of the Puppies as a source. I don't want to touch the article myself, but here is a possible rewrite of the section on the Hugos:
Nominations for the 2015 Hugo Award nominees was "strongly influenced by co-ordinated politcal campaigns" [1] lead by science fiction authors Vox Day, Larry Correia, and Brad R. Torgersen[2]. Although participants claimed that their goal is to oppose the promotion of low-quality works for political purposes[3], they have been accused of expanding the Gamergate controversy into science fiction.[4][5]
I think some of the wording is awkward, but is a fairer summary of the incident. Eladynnus (talk) 20:29, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Breitbart cannot be used as a reliable source, and Brad Torgerson’s weblog is only usable for Torgerson’s personal opinion. This leaves us with pretty much the current language. In the opinion of reliable sources (and of the community outside the puppies and gamergate), "hijacked" is fair. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Vox may be the "most odious puppy", but he's also the only of the three who is an open gamergate supporter and therefore the most relevant to the article. Your rewrite would be worse than the current version from a BLP standpoint, because it portrays Torgeson and Correia as of one group with Day, when (as can be seen in the very blogpost by Torgeson you cited) they're stating loudly that they want nothing to do with him. Bosstopher (talk) 20:57, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
References
- ^ http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/gamergatestyle-furore-after-scifi-awards-hijacked-20150408-1mfpk2.html
- ^ https://bradrtorgersen.wordpress.com/2015/04/16/we-are-not-rabid/
- ^ http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/05/the-hugo-wars-how-sci-fis-most-prestigious-awards-became-a-political-battleground/
- ^ http://www.bostonglobe.com/lifestyle/names/2015/04/07/hugo-awards-nominations-stir-controversy/p35RJCTVKx4GJJKFAmWNnK/story.html
- ^ http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2015/04/08/_2015_hugo_awards_how_the_sad_and_rabid_puppies_took_over_the_sci_fi_nominations.html
false vs. unproven
Can we discuss the substance of this edit on the talk page please? Even if editors are under an IBAN they can post separate statements in this section that are solely about article content. Gamaliel (talk) 23:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- As discussed in the archives at immense length, a false allegation is one which, as here, is factually incorrect. An unproven allegation is capable of being true. The claim that sexual favors were exchanged for favorable coverage -- or that favorable coverage was bestowed under the influence of sexual favors -- was not true. Anyone making this claim either knew it to be untrue -- in which case it is a false claim -- or failed to ascertain whether it could conceivably be true by failing to confirm that favorable coverage had appeared. To make a claim with reckless disregard for the truth is to make a false claim. We have been over this, time and again. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- My interpretation of the wording (although this is very controversial, apparently) is that false means untrue, and is therefore fine to use describing something as untrue. PeterTheFourth (talk) 00:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Alleged" implies that correct/incorrect has not been asserted. "Falsely alleged" implies intent or else we would describe it in temporal order. (i.e. "X alleged Y, which was later determined to be incorrect."). By placing "false" before "alleged", we imply intent. Consider the fictional case where a person convicted of rape was released after DNA evidence exonerated him; we would not describe the victims courtroom testimony as "She falsely swore that he raped her." The use of "falsely" in that placement implies an intent to deceive more than the veracity of the statement and we wouldn't allow it. This is pretty basic comprehension and we should not be using "falsely alleged" unless we have a source that describes an intent to make a false allegation. It's too easy to write it temporally correct than to imply an unsourced intent at any level of English comprehension. --DHeyward (talk) 06:23, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
- In this particular case, the source itself uses "unproven".
gamers grew angry over the unproven accusations her relationship with Grayson led to positive coverage of her game.
[3] I edited and paraphrased from that toEarly users of the term "gamergate" believed the lack of media coverage regarding the unproven accusations that Grayson gave positive coverage of Quinn's game was an unethical conspiracy amongst gaming journalists.
Before that edit, the article discussed it as "Quinn's private life" which seems to perpetuate speculation about her private life. The reason is more to highlight the gossipy nature of twitter/internet as some of the "unproven allegations" that were made were proved true while others were false (e.g. at the time, the allegation that Quinn and Grayson were even in a relationship was an "unproven allegation" and our edit logs show it. That relationship was confirmed. We simply don't need to keep bringing it up or put modifiers like "correctly alleged a relationship" - it was still unproven when made and therefore not good publishing material). The allegations, however, were simply repeated without verification and continued after the Kotaku review, which we cover in depth. --DHeyward (talk) 04:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)- We know that the allegations are false, as it was shown that Grayson only wrote about Quinn prior to their relationship. "Unproven" leads to the suggestion that it might be true, and per BLP we need to be clear that this is not the case. - Bilby (talk) 05:48, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- It's only in the narrow context of the beginning of the hashtag. No one is arguing those allegations were true or that was the only allegation flying around. The source uses "unproven" because its describing a point in time. A bunch of people tweeted portions of Gjoni's blog. At the time, everything was unproven. What we learned later was Grayson had a relationship with Quinn. We also learned that Grayson only wrote about Quinn prior to their relationship. We cover both of those allegations and emphatically state that Grayson did not review Quinn's games. It doesn't change the fact that a number of allegations were unproven when they were being tweeted.
- But "unproven" doesn't add much and I'm happy to drop it. Changing it to false, though, changes the meaning by establishing intent. Example: "John Doe alleged that he received a credible threat from anonymous. Police later determined there was a threat made but it was not credible." We don't in hindsight say "John Doe falsely alleged that he received a credible threat...." The first is a temporally accurate depiction that includes the findings, while the second example reads as if there was a motive. Lastly if 20,000 of hist closest twitter friends repeated "John Doe received credible threats", the accurate way to describe a large number repeating an unproven allegation is to use "unproven" as the professional writer did in the source. --DHeyward (talk) 11:03, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- We know that the allegations are false, as it was shown that Grayson only wrote about Quinn prior to their relationship. "Unproven" leads to the suggestion that it might be true, and per BLP we need to be clear that this is not the case. - Bilby (talk) 05:48, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
People, that sentence is a mess either way: Early users of the term "gamergate" believed the lack of media coverage regarding false/unproven accusations that Grayson gave Quinn positive coverage as the result of a relationship was an unethical conspiracy amongst gaming journalists
. I know folks have been edit-warring endlessly over "unproven" versus "false" before, but neither of the two works here. The reason is simple: the whole clause is semantically within the scope of "early users... believed...". But those early users believed neither that the accusations were false nor that they were unproven, so the sentence ends up making an untrue assertion (about what those people believed) either way. Incidentally, the sentence is also a stylistic nightmare with its doubly centre-embedded "that" clause. What you need to do here is to reword the whole thing. Why not, at this point, simply leave out the details of what the allegations were about? It's been explained multiple times further up in the article. Why not simply: Early users.... believed that the lack of media coverage regarding Quinn and Grayson was due to an unethical conspiracy amongst gaming journalists
? If that's not acceptable, the alternative is to rip the sentence apart in such a way that the explanation of what the allegations were about are moved outside the syntactic scope of "believed". Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- This works for me. I fully agree with the proposed wording. - Bilby (talk) 13:01, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Seems like it'd be fine. PeterTheFourth (talk) 13:45, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- some people can believe in things that are contradictory. Some can dream of things that never were. Oliver Wendell Holmes and Bobby Kennedy appear to disagree with you. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:55, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think the sentence should be removed entirely as it is redundant. It is covered clearly unambiguously earlier in the article: "Statements in the post led Gamergate supporters to allege that the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest. The claim was quickly investigated and determined to be false;". ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:27, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Alternately,
Early users of the tag justified their false accusations of Grayson and Quinn with a discredited conspiracy theory.
ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Alternately,
- Fut Perf's wording is great. FR's wording is worse than what's there now. --DHeyward (talk) 20:01, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Reminder: 1RR for GGC
I'm just putting this here, because more than a few people are getting sloppy about this. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 19:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I also wonder about the new restriction,
Also, the article and this Talk page may not be edited by accounts with fewer than 500 edits, or by accounts that are less than 30 days old. Edits made by accounts that do not meet these qualifications may be removed.
This prohibition would apply to some accounts who've recently posted to this talk page and article. Does this mean any editor can remove these comments and alert the editor to the changing rule? Liz Read! Talk! 19:29, 17 May 2015 (UTC)- As it notes, it is a "going forward" rule, so any existing comment by such editors should not be removed. However, if they are still under 30/500, then I read that restriction that any subsequent comment is a violation. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm not willing to enforce that restriction. How other people handle it is their call. I would, though, like to know where people with concerns about this article and who do not meet the unusual requirements are permitted to express them. - Bilby (talk) 22:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I suspect the arbcomm (?) wanted to prevent new people touching GGC | per the closing here ForbiddenRocky (talk) 00:40, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm not willing to enforce that restriction. How other people handle it is their call. I would, though, like to know where people with concerns about this article and who do not meet the unusual requirements are permitted to express them. - Bilby (talk) 22:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- I posted it a few sections up as well, but this is the bottom section and relevant to the topic, so: I've put up a Village Pump thread to discuss the restriction here, for those of us who cannot discuss the restriction on the only correct talk page for doing so. I do not have 500 contribs; I have 439 en.wiki contribs at time of writing and 487 Wikimedia project contribs in total. Nonetheless, I'd appreciate administrative discretion in leaving this post up (assuming the removal isn't automated) Riffraffselbow (talk) (contribs) 02:04, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- As it notes, it is a "going forward" rule, so any existing comment by such editors should not be removed. However, if they are still under 30/500, then I read that restriction that any subsequent comment is a violation. --MASEM (t) 19:47, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
Who Judges Which Is A Viable Source Or Not?
(rm per editor not having 500 edits) — Preceding unsigned comment added by J0eg0d (talk • contribs) May 18, 2015, 4:27 AM
- Hi J0eg0d. I'm aware of the report, and the report would be regarded as reliable. The problem is that it is also a primary source, so generally we would have to wait for secondary sources to evaluate its findings. As it stands there isn't much we can say through using it other than perhaps noting that WAM found incidents of reported harassment that they identified as coming from Gamergate supporters, simply because any further analysis of the findings is original research, which we are not permitted to do. - Bilby (talk) 04:36, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's no requirement to wait on secondary sources to include a primary source. We actually have already alluded that WAM was doing this study already (that was noted by third-party sources), so it's fair to include it. We can report what they claim without any problems (stuff like their finding that only 12% of the tweets they monitered were GG related.) --MASEM (t) 05:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just as a note, however, outside of how they describe GG in a more neutral tone, the only data I see that really applies immediately to the GG is this 12% number ("During a study performed by WAM from (date to date) on harassment engaged on Twitter, they found that Gamergate-related events accounted for 12% of their total activity.") The bulk of the rest is about online harassment in general and/or Twitter. --MASEM (t) 05:24, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
- There's no requirement to wait on secondary sources to include a primary source. We actually have already alluded that WAM was doing this study already (that was noted by third-party sources), so it's fair to include it. We can report what they claim without any problems (stuff like their finding that only 12% of the tweets they monitered were GG related.) --MASEM (t) 05:12, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
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