User talk:Zambelo

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Welcome!

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I notice that one of the first articles you edited appears to be dealing with a topic with which you may have a conflict of interest. In other words, you may find it difficult to write about that topic in a neutral and objective way, because you are, work for, or represent, the subject of that article. Your recent contributions may have already been undone for this very reason.

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Hi Coffeepusher, and thanks for the welcome - I don't have a conflict of interest, just an interest in maintaining and representing both sides of the issue; I hadn't paid close attention to what you were reverting (poorly referenced material), so I reverted, looking closer those paragraphs definitely don't belong.

Zambelo (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Criticism edit on Steven Hassan

Howdy Zambelo. I had to revert your edit to Steven Hassan because the source fails wikipedia's sourcing guidelines. Especially in biographies of living persons we have to be careful that anything critical of the individual is properly sourced and would stand up to scrutiny. While I do understand that the criticism came from a certified counselor, the sourcing guidelines require that it comes from a peer/editor reviewed source and blogs/self published web pages don't qualify. I'm sorry for the confusion. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 22:18, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

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Your vandalism in Jim Jones article

Why you removed link to O'Connor?. Stop it please.190.79.153.106 (talk) 14:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

forgive the intrusion Zambelo, but your friend has incorrectly identified your edit as vandalism, and I think the mistake should be noted. Your friend should be careful not to call something vandalism which is obviously not vandalism. I agree that the source identified, O'Connor (2009) doesn't contain the quote, so your friend should probably find a better source for the statement. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Blanking of cited material

Please stop blanking cited statements in articles. You have not demonstrated consensus for amending or excluding cited information prior to unilaterally removing. Including referenced material is much more constructive than blanking properly cited statements, whichis seen as tendentious. Your absolute distaste for Hassan is abundantly clear, however, that need not color your edits or behavior. • Astynax ^talk 21:31, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Army report debunks brainwashing of American POW

Hi, Zambelo. The mind control article currently has a section dedicated to an Army report that supposedly debunks the idea that American POWs were brainwashed. I've never been able to verify the existence of this report. I was wondering if you have ever come across it in your research. Thanks, -Nietzsche123 (talk) 22:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Nietzsche123, I hadn't, but I do now have access to it, so I can verify it exists. Zambelo (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I just added below an invitation to Zambello to comment on a quote he took from the report, and noticed this. The paper version of the report can be found in federal depository libraries; the one I read came from the University of Virginia law library. Pleased that Zambello found an online version. In future perhaps questions about citations may best be addressed on the talk page for the article in question? ElijahBosley ^{(talk ☞)} 20:46, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

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Mind control talk page

I added a question about some text I believe you may have added to the mind control page, regarding a quote out of an army report. I left the text in the article, despite my reservations about whether it breaks up the flow of the paragraphs where it has been interjected. I thought you might first like to weigh in.ElijahBosley ^{(talk ☞)} 20:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Merge?

Hi Zambelo. I've suggested merging Exit counseling into Deprogramming since it seems to be mainly notable as a sub-type of that. You are one of the few people still involved with the article. Kitfoxxe (talk) 05:10, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

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Category:Cult related terms and concepts

Hi Zambelo. I would appreciate your input as a concerned editor at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 January 6#Category:Cult related terms and concepts. HelenOnline 18:43, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder

I will not dispute your objection to "suspect" (although a mere say-so on a hostile website hardly balances out a research paper), but in any event I moved the material back to the footnote because it duplicates something already mentioned in the section and there is consensus for the section to be pruned. Thanks Ridiculus mus (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

February 2014

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Your RfC

Your RfC about the Waco siege failed. It wasn't even formatted properly. Your request for mediation failed. There was no consensus for this version you keep trying to force into the article. Who else supports the version you're putting in? You're clearly not being honest with yourself. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:35, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The RFC was more in regards to your behaviour, mischaracterisations and general lack of good faith. It failed because I hadn't formatted it correctly, and it therefore lacked visibility. The content has been changed since the original implementation, and has also moved to another section. You have yet to bring a valid reason for the content not to be in the article, despite it being relevant and referenced with high quality references. If you want to content gone, the onus is on you to prove that it has no place in the article. Until then, academic, media and state sources say otherwise. Zambelo; talk 01:06, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• And there is your problem. RfC aren't for that purpose. I will ask one more time: Who else is supporting this version? Be specific. You claim there is support. Who is it? Niteshift36 (talk) 01:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The references speak for themselves. The onus is on you to disprove the content. Zambelo; talk 01:38, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• No, you've claimed that you have consensus and that "others" have assisted in creating this version. I will ask for the last time who else agreed to this version. And yes, your refusal (inability) to provide that answer will be used at the appropriate noticeboard. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:23, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Look at the article history. Good luck with the appropriate noticeboard. Zambelo; talk 07:27, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

• The edit history doesn't establish a consensus. The matter was discussed. A couple of people expressed a position that possibly a sentence or two could be included. Some not at all. Nobody supported all the material you're forcing in. Nobody. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:18, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Well certainly not you. The fact is the RFC failed because of visibility. More input is needed - but the fact remains that the content is relevant, is referenced, and if you want to dispute it you should really provide a real reason, which you have failed time and time again to provide. The responsibility lies with you to discover why, if at all, the content doesn't belong in the article. If you really want the content gone, then please do post this to the appropriate noticeboard, I would love to see this resolved, one way or the other. In the meantime, the content stays. Zambelo; talk 01:43, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• No, challenged content doesn't "stay in the meantime". The fact that you say more input is needed is evidence that there is no consensus. Don't link to essays about ownership when you are exhibiting ownership issues in your edits. I can show editors that do NOT agree with the version you're forcing into the article. You can't show anyone supporting it. Guess who is trying playing the ownership game friend? Niteshift36 (talk) 12:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

More input is needed, because you have refused to give any reasonable reason for verifiable, referenced and relevant content to be removed. You in fact offered no input on how it could be improved, and immediately sought to have the content removed. Again, the onus is on you to show the content doesn't belong. Zambelo; talk 12:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

• You keep repeating that lie that no input was given. It was, by more than one editor opposing it. You just don't like it. Niteshift36 (talk) 12:49, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

The only input given was that the content didn't belong in the prelude. Guess what? It is no longer in the prelude. Earlier input saying the content was too long was also implemented. It seems only you have refused input, aggressively and sarcastically dismissing the input from Woodshed, and refusing mediation. This while still not giving any reason for the content to be removed. Zambelo; talk 20:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

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Proposed deletion of Mike Kropveld

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Mind control ref edit

Hi Zambelo. You seem to have added a 'malformed' ref. See the diff here and look at the Lingua Franca ref, № 39 in the references section. You gave no edit summary to describe what you did at all.

• The ref you added had no title. It also had "title={{cite web |url= |title=", that's an extraneous "{{cite web", "|url=" and "|title =".
• Archived sources also require some extra fields such as 'archivedate=', and 'archiveurl=', as well as the standard 'url='.

The full ref now, looks like this:

<ref name="linfran">{{cite web |last1=Allen |first1=Charlotte |title=BRAINWASHED! SCHOLARS OF CULTS ACCUSE EACH OTHER OF BAD FAITH |url=http://linguafranca.com/9812/allen.html |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20001203192600/ http://linguafranca.com/9812/allen.html |website=Lingua Franca |archivedate=2000-12-03 |date=December 1998 |publisher=linguafranca.com |accessdate=2014-06-16}}</ref>

This diff here (past Line 44:) shows the changes required for the ref to 'work' properly. Just FYI. :-) --220 of ^Borg 13:33, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Men's rights movement probation sanctions notice

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Reference Errors on 22 June

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Please respond at WP:BNA

Hey, I left a question for you at BNA, Sadads (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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You removed a sourced edit without explanation

Hello, you removed this edit without explanation. This can be seen as vandalism. Please explain on the talk pages and in the edit summary next time. Milliongoldcoinpoint (talk) 15:49, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

You need to relax. Zambelo; talk 15:50, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

No, you need to be a collaborative editor and reply to the reasonable request. Always provide an edit summary, and don't mark edits as minor edits when they aren't. In fact it's never necessary to mark an edit as minor. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:08, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I reverted it because his first edit had an edit summary "sham" and his second carelessly plonked a large section of text down onto the article (which I then later went to clean up) - to the casual browser, these edits look disruptive, hence the revert, without a summary. He then came here and accused me of vandalism, after his disruptive edits. Ok. Zambelo; talk 00:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand your reasoning. It is the lack of an edit summary and your dismissive tone that are the reasons for my comment. I see that you still make many edits without edit summaries. Please try to improve on that front. There are statistics over use of edit summaries, and your record isn't good. I suspect you wish to build a good reputation here, and this is just part of it. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:25, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are so concerned, but a lot of the type of edits I do don't require an edit summary - for instance, I do a lot of cleaning work involving removing old content tagged with dated tags/templates, or cleaning up articles that have had no input for years. I don't really care about reputation, frankly. My edits speak for themselves. Zambelo; talk 03:33, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you know what happened to the article? Milliongoldcoinpoint is replacing sourced text with OR and using poor sources.[1][2] See Talk:Acupuncture#Duplication and Talk:Acupuncture#Sham acupuncture in Germany but not acupuncture in general for a couple of current problems. QuackGuru (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that. A comment still deserves a decent reply, and reverts and edits need edit summaries. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:09, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The editor makes a lot of mistakes. Other editors are trying to fix the problems You are aware of that but who is going to fix the ongoing problems? There is a lot of funny things happening to the article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

The account that added the outdated information to the page is indef-blocked. QuackGuru (talk) 03:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

July 2014

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Opposition to NRMs

I am challenging the inclusion of names in this template on the basis of basic verifiability - your assertion that you know who these people are and what they do is not a valid criteria for inclusion. More importantly, this would be a form of categorization that could be potentially controversial. Please write the articles if you feel they meet the notability guidelines and add them to the template afterwards. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 20:18, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

They are notable because they are part of notable anti-cult groups. The template includes them (under the group headings) because they are key figures in these organisations, and often chain in various anti-cult groups. These figures are referred to on the anti-cult movement article, the cult article, and in the respective anti-cult group articles. Anti-cult groups are by definition opposed to New Religious movements. They may not be notable outside their role as anti-cult activists, but they are notable within the groups they are part of - so while an article may not be appropriate, inclusion in the template is. Zambelo; talk 21:32, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

A person is notable in Wikipedia when there is an article about them in Wikipedia. I have no problem with you adding those names to the organizations, etc. as long as their participation and role is sourced. But I can't put a {{cn}} on a template used in multiple articles, nor is it realistic to have so many redlinks in one either. Again, basic verifiability. You can't circumvent Wikipedia policy simply because the content is in a template as opposed to an article. The core policies like V and BLP apply everywhere, to all content. §FreeRangeFrog^croak 21:37, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

A person is notable regardless of his/her as-yet unpublished article on WIkipedia. The individuals in question are mentioned in the articles about the groups they belong in, and as such they are verifiable and also belong to the category of people who Oppose NRMs. I don't have an issue with removing the redlinks, but I do with the removal of the names, as they are integral to the groups they comprise. Perhaps you could create a RFC for this issue, but until then the names that are verifiable from their parent articles should remain. Zambelo; talk 00:00, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

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Category on Christian countercult movement

I removed Category:Religious discrimination because Category:Christian countercult movement is not necessarily, or even most likely, religious discrimination and should not be placed in that category. Editor2020 00:09, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It is most certainly religious discrimination - the very movement relies on this discrimination between approved Christian groups and other religions. Zambelo; talk 00:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

According to Religious discrimination that is "when adherents of different religions (or denominations) are treated unequally, either before the law or in institutional settings such as employment or housing." Editor2020 00:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

The institution here would be the church collective, religious institutions (often religious corporations) that treat other religious beliefs unequally. Zambelo; talk 00:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

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Christian countercult movement

Hello, you're right that Christian countercult movement is about converting members of New Religious Movements, but it's not about discrimination or persecution. Please read Discrimination and Persecution if you want to know more about these both concepts. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:15, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

They define cults as any group not adhering to their definition of christianity (descrimination) and they actively seek to forcibly convert members of other religions (persecution). This is the purpose and mission of the CCM.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially because of race or political or religious beliefs; oppression

Descrimination: the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex: victims of racial discrimination | discrimination against homosexuals

Zambelo; talk 06:19, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

• Exactly, defining is not unjust treating, it's just categorizing. And there is nothing in the article about forcible conversion. So neither discrimination nor persecution is the case. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:28, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Reverted again

Zambelo,

I just reverted you again on Opposition to NRMs template. I saw your edit summary, problem is, the people you're trying to add in don't have articles (they're redlinked) and without articles and reliable sources that indicate they're opposed to NRMs, they can't be added in per BLP. If you can supply reliable references that say they're opposed to NRM's, then I can't very well argue BLP, right ? KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

They belong to the mentioned anti-cult groups, and so are opposed to NRMs... The articles on these groups mention these names with references. Zambelo; talk 16:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

No, you've put people's name in, it's those name that I removed per BLP (No article, so no references ). Without references they cannot stay per BLP. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj

The references for those names are found in the articles for the groups. So they are referenced, per BLP. Zambelo; talk 16:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Men's Rights Page

Be careful on the reverts on the Men's Rights page, there is a 1RR rule in place, ie no more than 1 revert per 24 hrs. I'd hate to see you blocked, your voice is important in the discussion. CSDarrow (talk) 02:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, yeah it's clear that the article has a lot of issues, and that there are people with agendas actively trying to impose their view on it - I'll keep it low key and to the talk page for now :) Zambelo; talk 04:30, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

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Notice of Neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

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Landmark Worldwide

Hello! I noted that you re-added New Religious Movement to the Landmark Worldwide article. I had removed that categorization as it was found in this RfC that the company (or at least the sources) does not meet the criteria for an NRM. Please take a look, and remove the NRM characterisation if you agree with my understanding of the RfC. Cheers! --Tgeairn (talk) 03:39, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I see your reasoning, however the context in the article is that Landmark Worldwide had been characterised as an NRM, by various people. So the statement isn't that Landmark is an NRM, but rather that it has been characterised as such. Zambelo; talk 03:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah. I see that now, thank you! --Tgeairn (talk) 03:45, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

September 2014

Please do not remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Michael Langone, without resolving the problem that the template refers to, or giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your removal of this template does not appear constructive, and has been reverted. Can't remove a "like resume" tag without discussion--certainly not if in the same edits you turn it back into what is blatantly a resume. Drmies (talk) 23:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of David Clark (consultant)

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Hmph... I didn't realize you created this until the notify step. Would you consider moving it to a user draft or the draft namespace? Thanks --Tgeairn (talk) 08:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Ian Haworth

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MfD nomination of Portal:Cults

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My edits in your Userspace

Hello Zambelo-

I added {{noindex}} to a couple pages in your userspace, following the instructions here. If you disagree with the addition of this template, please discuss here before removing. Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 10:53, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

You were mentioned

Zambelo, you're mentioned on this page , specifically the NRM template you keep adding names back into. You need to stop , per BLP , unless you can supply reliable sources for your allegations. It's a violation of BLP to do otherwise. Y0u've been told this both by myself and Free Range Frog, who's a sysop. You can be blocked if you refuse to comply. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 16:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Your were mentioned here, too

Zambelo,

You were mentioned here . This is in regard to your frequent BLP violating editing of this template . I've proposed a TBAN as this is your third time doing this, you were warned three times by yourself, myself and a third editor. I hate to propose this, however, BLP is serious business, even so, your input is requested. KoshVorlon Angeli i demoni kruzhyli nado mnoj 17:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

BLP

I noticed this edit. Please don't make any more edits like that unless you have discussed and obtained a strong consensus to do so. --John (talk) 18:43, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

There was no discussion, and All I was doing was reverting the deletions. These should be discussed, not the existing template. If you have concerns, bring them to the talk page, by all means. Zambelo; talk 20:19, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Rosanne Henry for deletion

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Opposition to NRMs / flagicons

Hello! I noted your second reversion of my removal of flagicon templates from Oppostion to NRMs. I have started a discussion on their use in this navigation template. Please comment there. Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 23:10, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of David Clark (consultant) for deletion

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October 2014

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on List of deprogrammers. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

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Copyright problem: User:Zambelo/VAPNG

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Hi Stefan2 , this is an archive from a wikipedia page. No copyright issue. Zambelo; talk 20:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

It is a duplicate of a Wikipedia page. Without knowing which page it is, it is impossible to satisfy the licensing requirements. Therefore, the page is a copyright violation. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The article was "Voyage au Pays des Nouveaux Gourous", which currently no longer exists. Zambelo; talk 21:03, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

The revision history does not appear to be available there. You must provide a place where the original revision history is available for inspection. Otherwise, it is not possible to fix this. --Stefan2 (talk) 21:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Zambelo, the status of User:Zambelo/VAPNG is confusing. Due to the template that is on it now, it will probably be deleted soon. I understand that the revision history is still sitting under the redirect at Voyage au pays des nouveaux gourous. Thus, you can always get the material again if you need to work on it. In my opinion the simplest option is to let this page be deleted. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 17:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

List of deprogrammers

I have reverted your latest edit to the List of deprogrammers article - it is absolutely clear that there is a consensus that the names you have been adding lack the necessary sources to establish their notability, and therefore their inclusion is a violation of WP:BLP policy. Consider this a final warning - if you add these names again without establishing a clear consensus for their inclusion, I shall raise the matter at WP:ANI, where I shall call for you to be topic-banned from all articles relating to cults, to new religious movements, and to 'deprogramming'. WP:BLP policy is not open to negotiation, and your refusal to listen to the multiple experienced contributors who have advised you regarding this matter can only ever have one result. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:51, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The issue was with the references; I added new references: have a look. Zambelo; talk 03:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Hello! Please note that I have restructured the layout of the RfC at List of deprogrammers. Please review and make certain your comments are in the intended section(s). Thank you, Tgeairn (talk) 20:58, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Mike Kropveld for deletion

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Topic ban

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