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== Current requests == <!--Add new requests immediately below, before any outstanding requests.-->
== Current requests == <!--Add new requests immediately below, before any outstanding requests.-->


=== Bennett Lebow ===
'''Initiated by ''' [[Alygx026]] '''at''' 15:10, 15 November 2008


==== Involved parties ====
<!-- use {{admin|username}} if the party is an administrator -->

{{userlinks|Alygx026}} ''filing party''

{{userlinks|Kansas7474}}

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`

<!-- All parties must be notified that the request has been filed, immediately after it is posted, and confirmation posted here. -->

Kansas7474 has been notified of this arbitration on their talk page.



Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried

Kansas7474 (hereinafter "Kansas") has deleted my changes to the article on Bennett Lebow, because, according to Kansas, my statements do not "flow well". I disagree, and have asked Kansas7474 on their talk page if they would like to proceed to mediation before this arbitration, but did not receive a response. To be sure Kansas7474 received the message, I posted my request on both my (alygx026) talk page, and the bennett lebow discussion page as well.

==== Statement by Alygx026 ====
I believe Kansas7474 is simply using this encyclopedia as a public relations statement (see also Kansas' other postings) in an attempt to burnish Mr. Lebows reputation. Kansas7474, perhaps additionally operating under another name, has done everything possible to eliminate any negative statement regarding Mr. Lebow. I have added additional material to give a more balanced view of Mr. Lebow, in order to reach a more honest and neutral view of him. By Kansas' own admission, this material is accurately sourced. Kansas has eliminated my changes SEVEN times with essentially no explanation other than it was "taken out of context", or "exaggerated" (Kansas did point out one error in an article I cited, which I immediately corrected). However, after I told Kansas that if they deleted my material again, we would have to proceed to arbitration or mediation, Kansas said my information was accurately sourced, but that it does not "flow well" in the article. See talk page on 129.174.229.208 (my IP address may have been used instead of my name if I had forgotten to log in). It is obvious Kansas simply does not want any negative inferences made to Mr. Lebow, and is doing everything possible to present a one-sided positive view of him. One other user, ImmortalGoddezz, has even attempted to revert to my changes with a statement that the material I presented should not be censored merely because Kansas finds it objectionable.

I request that the changes made by myself at 1:21, 23 September 2008 be made final, with the page locked to prevent further improper editing. If it is felt that my information should be rewritten in a more compact manner, or integrated more fully into the document, I request that I be given the chance to do so, only that it be reviewed by a Wikipedia arbitrator for correctness before locking it. Otherwise, Kansas, based on their previous behavior, will simply remove any changes I make, after much work has been done.

==== Statement by {Party 2} ====

==== Clerk notes ====


''This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.''


==== Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/4/0/0) ====
* Decline as premature; please go through the preliminary steps in the dispute resolution process before bringing this here. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup><small>([[User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism|prof]])</small></sup> 21:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
* Decline per Kirill. A [[WP:3O|third opinion]] request might be helpful here. [[User:Newyorkbrad|Newyorkbrad]] ([[User talk:Newyorkbrad|talk]]) 04:10, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
* Decline per Kirill. [[User:Sam Blacketer|Sam Blacketer]] ([[User talk:Sam Blacketer|talk]]) 13:29, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
* Reject per Kirill and and Newyorkbrad. [[User:FloNight|FloNight]][[User talk:FloNight|&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;]] 02:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
----


=== Removal Woods results by Ronz ===
=== Removal Woods results by Ronz ===

Revision as of 13:21, 17 November 2008

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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 20 Apr 2024 04 May 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Conflict of interest management 13 Apr 2024
Mzajac 7 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing none (orig. case) 30 April 2024
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4 none (orig. case) 8 May 2024

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Current requests

Removal Woods results by Ronz

Initiated by Seeyou (talk) at 21:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`

• [[1]] ( Ronz is noted )

Confirmation that other steps in [[Wikipedia dispute resolution|dispute resolution]] have been tried


( editwar )

( neglected previous cabalcase different subject by Ronz )

• [2]

( See paragraph RFC no : 3 removal of Woods research results )

The Batesmethod article does not mention any reliable successtory regarding improving vision naturally. However there is information presented by ophthalmology which gives slight positive results. Skeptics have since this reference has become present made many attempts to get rid of this information. Fact is there are totally no arguments to hide this minor successtory. See RFC no 3. :

According to Ronz. There is consensus to not present the Woods results. Seeyou’s comment. There is no consensus since the the skeptics can not provide one single argument for their removal. Note also there used the be a link, source ophthalmology, clearly stating the use of eye-exercise is controversial.

Statement by Jéské Couriano

Seeyou has been very much a disruptive single-purpose on Bates method for the better part of a year now, and I note he doesn't show the RFC/U on him or the *many* retaliatory RfMs and MedCab cases he filed, nor does he mention that a recent AN/I thread, since archived, seems to be pointing towards either an RfArb case or topic-ban, and that both have been discussed for him *several* times before. So, I'll point you to the RFC:

As well as all his abuses of Mediation to get back at whom he perceives as his opponents:

There has been an ongoing behavior problem here, but it hasn't been on Ronz' part, and Seeyou has thus far ignored any advice or admonitions given him. I hate to say this, but Seeyou needs a topic ban but fast.

As an aside: I am an involved party here - I have dealt with Seeyou a lot in recent months and that fact he doesn't list me means that either he doesn't care or he's more concerned aboutsanctioning Ronz.

I will update this section as I find RFC's, I know there is at least one more.

-Jéské Couriano (v^_^v) 21:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/3/0/0)

  • Comment. Seems to be a premature request. More involvement from the Community will likely take care of the situation. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline as premature. Please pursue the preliminary steps in the dispute resolution process before bringing this here. Kirill (prof) 21:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline per above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifications and other requests

Shortcuts

Place requests related to amendments of prior cases, appeals, and clarifications on this page. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. To create a new request for arbitration, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Place new requests at the top. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How-to other requests

Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 20 Apr 2024 04 May 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Conflict of interest management 13 Apr 2024
Mzajac 7 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
Amendment request: Conduct in deletion-related editing none (orig. case) 30 April 2024
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 4 none (orig. case) 8 May 2024

No arbitrator motions are currently open.


Current requests

Request to review User:Jack Merridew's ban

Jack Merridew has asked the Arbitration Committee to review and lift his ban. (arbcom clarification, User:Jack Merridew, SSP case, RFCU case, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive136#Community sanction or ban for Jack Merridew, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive142#Jack Merridew).

On Oct 24, 2008 Jack Merridew started a dialog with the the Arbitration Committee and some Wikipedia English administrators (name of email: thread Mentorship, take 2?) about returning to Wikipedia English with editing restrictions and a mentor. During the discussion, Merridew was counseled about the exceptions for his return, in particular the absolute requirement that he will stay completely away from White Cat.
On October 28, 2008, White Cat was notified by email that the Arbitration Committee was reviewing Jack Merridew's ban. Since then, White Cat has given his thoughts about the potential unblock in several talk page threads, ([7], [8], [9] and in an IRC chat (In the ArbCom list email thread, White Cat- Jack Merridew (Davenbelle) situation)


Question from Risker

I note Condition #8, in particular "Should Jack Merridew violate the restrictions imposed upon him in this decision, he may be blocked for one year by any uninvolved administrator" (emphasis mine). Am I correct in interpreting that any deviation from the remainder of the editing condition will result in a one-year block? Risker (talk) 02:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC) Note - refers to Condition #8 in Motion #1, as it was initially proposed by FloNight.[reply]

Comment for FT2: I note that you have changed the section I quoted above; could you please include that in your comment? Risker (talk) 04:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by LessHeard vanU

I am concerned at the timing of the proposed return of Jack Merridew - with whom I have previously had some convivial interactions - given that White Cat is a candidate on the 2008 ArbCom elections. I would seek reassurance that the conditions of the return of Jack Merridew includes a constraint upon him not participating in the aforementioned Election in any capacity; his voting for and advocating for candidates other than White Cat possibly being construed as acting against that party. I would point out that if Jack Merridew were not permitted to regain their editing privileges then they would not be permitted to participate in the election, and that under the circumstances being prevented in doing so while editing under restrictions is not as prohibitive as might at first appear. I regard this as a necessary extension of the restriction that Jack Merridew should not interact with White Cat, as proposed by FloNight. LessHeard vanU (talk) 03:36, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by John Vandenberg

IMO, Jack Merridew has earned a "final" chance. It is not just the work he has done on other projects, but also the manner in which he has communicated with others about his prior behaviour. He has been open and honest, and a hard worker to boot. *fingers crossed*

It should be made clear that this is his final chance, and that he will not be enjoying the benefit of the doubt, so it is on his shoulders to ensure that there is no even the slightest appearance of relapse. It looks like FT2 is going to proposed something along these lines.

In regards to the Arbcom elections, raised by LessHeard vanU above, the discussion about this motion started prior to the elections, and I am pretty sure that it also predates any indication from White Cat that he was going to run. I think it is safe to say there is no possible chance that it was was a motivator in this case. It is a given that Jack Merridew would oppose White Cat if he could, and think it is sufficient "punishment" that he wont be able to that. Limiting him from participating entirely isnt something I would have even thought of, but now that you have raised it, it seems reasonable. It "cant hurt". As you say, if this motion doesnt pass, he wouldnt have been able to participate anyway, so he is no worse off if he is prohibited from participating in this years election. John Vandenberg (chat) 03:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by White Cat

I am of course less than thrilled at the thought that Davenbelle (aka Moby Dick aka Diyarbakir aka Jack Merridew) would return editing on this site. This isn't something I have any control on, I know that. I do not have to like it but I think I can live with it. All I want to do is not to deal with any more harassment. If arbcom can pass measures and enact mechanisms to insure that.

I will however say this. Moreschi is not an uninvolved third party on this matter. I would recommend arbcom to pick a mediator that does not have a past quarrel with me. I'd be EXTREMELY uncomfortable in asking Moreschi for help. I really do not want to be put in a situation any more uncomfortable than it already is. PLEASE!

Also in my view Jack Merridew should at least have three different mediators. If one mediator is unavailable (leaves the project, gets ill, gets hit by space debris, does a head-on with a planet and anything else equally unlikely) others would be there. This would also be in the best interest of Jack Merridew too me thinks.

-- Cat chi? 06:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

To Lar,
What do you mean I clashed with "a long list of people"? Please stop treating as if I am the disruptive party. I am sick and tired of facing accusations any time I bring up an issue concerning Davenbelle. Give me a freaking break!
We aren't exactly in a shortage. There are plenty of editors and admins out there who have not alienated themselves from me. Unfortunately Moreschi is not such a person. I do not believe what I am requesting is unreasonable. I am not trying to win a wiki-enemy and I mean no disrespect to Moreschi. I just do not wish to see him in the helm of this very fragile issue.
-- Cat chi? 21:15, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Also victims do not need "parole officers". And in actual legal systems if the parole officer has a conflict of interest, he or she is of course recused. I'd have thought Moreschi would recuse himself from such a task... -- Cat chi? 21:25, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
To FloNight:
You were having connection problems and seems like I only got a partial post from you. We can discuss this in greater detail if you are online now.
-- Cat chi? 22:57, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Lar

I am in favor of this. I have seen this user in action on other wikis and I think he truly is committed to making a successful return here, and truly understands what will be required to do so. Further, as a steward, I've reviewed the unification of accounts other than Jack Merridew (which have all be explicitly directly disclosed to me although they are public record) and if there are any issues (there are some accounts that are in use by other users) I will do my best to assist in resolving them.

Finally, if the ArbCom desires that more than one mentor be appointed I am willing to so serve (this matter has come up in private communication already). However, I have confidence in Moreschi. He and I have already communicated and I have offered him whatever assistance he may choose to ask for that is in my power to give. ++Lar: t/c 07:58, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Pixelface: Wow. I think you might want to refactor your words just a bit. ++Lar: t/c 18:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Tznkai: I think your analogy is a bit off... neither victims nor perpetrators get a veto over who the parole officers are, and I'm not sure it's a good precedent to establish that anyone (other than ArbCom) gets a veto over who the mentors are. Input? Sure. And ArbCom should weigh that input carefully. But in this particular case, the list of people WhiteCat has clashed with over the years is rather long. Are all of them to be disqualified? Is everyone who Jack Merridew clashed with also to be similarly disqualified? ++Lar: t/c 18:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Tznkai: (I feel like we're having a dialog, maybe we need to thrash this out somewhere else) First, we are none of us perfect, and that includes both JM and WC. So perhaps it would be generally better if neither party had a veto over who could mentor and who could not. I'm with you in wanting to trust ArbCom to be sanguine about this matter. However, perhaps more than one mentor is a better approach here? I'm starting to really like that way of doing things. As for disenfranchising completely, that does seem a bit punitive to me, doesn't it? Either he's returned or he hasn't. ++Lar: t/c 23:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Casliber

I would also be happy to mediate in unbanned. I found Jack Merridew's behaviour infuriating at AfD, and I guess my views are more aligned with White Cat and other inclusionists. However, like some other deletionists, Jack has some very valid points on systemic bias and addressing it, is good with layout and has been contributing constructively on much-needed article content elsewhere. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Pixelface, KWW, White cat, A Nobody - all these editors make valid points, and if the consensus were to remain banned I would not oppose. I am merely pointing out that if Jack Merridew were unbanned, I would be happy to mentor as I have seen some good work. I concede that it is a long period of problematic behaviour, and like a Nobody, found the AfD participation troublesome and unhelpful. I think if White cat feels uncomfortable with Moreschi then a different person needs to be selected. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pixelface

Oh dear God no. You have got to be fucking kidding me. Wow. What a horribly bad idea. I can't believe any arbitrator is even considering this. Y'know, why don't you just really shit on White Cat *and* WP:HARASSMENT and make Jack Merridew an arbitrator while you're at it? Jack Merridew would be a great arbitrator — he's obviously good at manipulating you clowns. How can you people be so fucking stupid? Y'know, that may be too salty. Can I get a mentor pretty please? This isn't just about the constant stalking. This isn't just about the constant socking. This isn't just about the constant lying about the socking.

Please, come to your senses and look at this graph, this thread on Jimbo's talk page, this AN thread, this AN thread and also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2/Workshop (I know it may be the first time for some of you). Search for "Jack Merridew" on the E&C2 workshop page and think about what you'd be doing. Pay special attention to this thread and keep in mind Jack Merridew's later admission of sockpuppetry. After I made a motion to add Jack Merridew as an involved party of E&C2, he responded with insults and by following me to AFDs. This isn't just about harassment of White Cat (although that really should be enough, don't you think?) This isn't just about the constant lying. If you unblock David aka D73733C8-CC80-11D0-B225-00C04FB6C2F5 aka Senang Hati aka Moby Dick aka Diyarbakir aka Davenbelle aka Note to Cool Cat aka Thomas Jerome Newton aka Jack Merridew, you might as well open E&C3 now (and proceed to sit on your thumbs for 3 months). Now let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time, a woman named Allison Sudradjat, AusAID's Minister Counsellor in Indonesia, who administered aid from Australia to Indonesia, boarded Garuda Indonesia Flight 200 in Jakarta and when it went to land on March 7, 2007 in Yogyakarta Indonesia at Adisucipto International Airport, it overran the end of the runway and crashed and burst into flames and she died, along with 20 other people. Two months after the crash, David (aka D73733C8-CC80-11D0-B225-00C04FB6C2F5 aka Senang Hati aka Moby Dick aka Diyarbakir aka Davenbelle aka Note to Cool Cat aka Thomas Jerome Newton aka Jack Merridew) from Bali (or a kampong near Bali), who started editing October 31 2004, who has in the past repaired the roof on the Senang Hati Foundation, and was perhaps momentarily bored of stalking White Cat at the time, wrote an article about her and it was deleted. In anger, instead of improving the article, he then sought to delete every article related to "pop culture" he could find (although I don't really see how that fits with David's problem with "Jimmy's other pocket"). Congratulations David! Now when anyone wants to learn about D&D, Wikia thanks you for the page views! For his all-around assholery, David received death threats and impersonators. I guess harassment begets harassment.

At one point, after he had gotten his lulz, Jack Merridew admitted to being Davenbelle and he was blocked indefinitely. In March 2008, David asked that the article about Allison Sudradjat be placed in his userspace and David finally decided to improve it. Casliber placed it in the mainspace and Pegasus deleted it under G5. Casliber took it to DRV in April 2008 and the article was re-created. Am I warm so far David? Or are you full under a bridge somewhere? After the Senang Hati Foundation and Allison Sudradjat articles were improved, perhaps David is less bitter now and trusts in the editing process on Wikipedia. However, why should anyone trust David after the unmitigated bullshit he has pulled? You do not trust people who have shown themselves to be untrustworthy over and over and over again. Fool Arbcom once, twice, three times...how many times does it take? Seriously? David sure isn't making the Senang Hati Foundation look any better. If I ever get in a plane crash in Indonesia and end up paralyzed, I'll be sure to go to the Senang Hati Foundation for my free wheelchair and complimentary stalker.

What are the risks of unblocking Jack Merridew? What are the benefits? Are there any? How could you even consider an unblock without a topic ban in fiction? If Jack Merridew is unblocked, that is a clear message by the arbitration committee that WP:HARASSMENT means fuck all, that users can do anything they want and always be forgiven, and that ArbCom is a joke — just in time for the 2008 elections. Yeah, unblock Jack Merridew right before the elections where White Cat is running. White Cat's the pig! Run White Cat run! --Pixelface (talk) 12:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tznkai

I did some minor clerking on this case before hand, but I have recused myself from further such edits, this is a personal opinion

I am not familiar with the gory details of this case but I take the following two things as fact:

  1. Jack Merridew has harassed White cat
  2. White cat has in good faith stated he would not be able to turn to Moreschi for help concerning this matter.

That there has been harassment is a serious problem, and needs to be dealt with the utmost of caution. That we see the ability of any editor to reform is noble, enacting this belief with caution would be most wise. Using a mentor-cum-watch dog is sensible, but it is certainly not sensible to use a mentor that the victim of harassment doesn't trust. This would be roughly equivlent to having a stalker's parole officer be the ex-spouse of the stalkee. I make no comment here on Moreschi's actual ability or lack thereof, I am simply pointing out without White cat trusting Moreschi, this rehabilitation is too dangerous and prone to spectacular failure. Unless the mentoring position is given to (a) individual(s) White cat can trust, these motions should not pass.--Tznkai (talk) 17:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Lar: In this case White cat is a wronged party and Jack Merridew has already breached community standards. He is essentially our equivalent of a felon, or at least an undesirable, so his concerns on who his mentor is are of very little weight compared to White cat. Do either of them get a veto? No. Is it a good idea to go against the victim's wishes? Also no. If we accept the possibility that harassment could reoccur, we accept that we need to actively monitor for it. The primary way to detect harassment is by the complaints of the victim, (even when every on wiki communication is logged, there is off wiki communication and information overload to worry about) and if White cat won't report, we've cut out the principle source of information.--Tznkai (talk) 18:45, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And as far as precedent goes, I think its a good precedent to show that Arbcom is attentive to all the nuances of a situation.--Tznkai (talk) 18:48, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FloNight, since there is a pending clarification on Everyking below that states flatly that Arbcom election voting and question are exceptions to the "No comments on" restriction, it would probably be a good idea to explicitly restrict Jack Merridew from voting or posing questions on White Cat's current and/or future elections.
On a related note, it may be worthwhile to deny Jack Merridew suffrage in this election entirely. The timing of this coming up shortly before an election unfortunate and the denial of suffrage is harsh, but I remind everyone that Jack Merridew was removed from the community for harassing another user and there are few more serious breaches of community standards. It is also clear that not all of the community is willing to forgive and forget just yet. Jack Merridew quite frankly, has to earn community trust again, something that will be considerably easier for all involved after the elections are over.--Tznkai (talk) 22:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Lar: (I think the dialogue is productive for the consumption of the public and the Arbitration Committee, but I'll be happy to also do it else where if you wish) Disenfranchising someone is very serious, and given the opportunity to decide it, I'm not sure if I would. I do think however, that the kind of harassment we're talking about here makes it an option worth considering. Suffrage is at the most basic level a way of saying someone is a fully fledged community member and conversely, being disenfranchised is a way for the community to set certain users apart. It is an ugly mark to bear, but Jack Merridew has earned it. Whether or not it is necessary, proper, or proportionate, I do not know, I will defer to those more familiar with the case than I.
As to the mentor issue, multiple mentors is of course the way to go, and if it is genuinely hard to find say, three upstanding community members able and willing to ride herd over Jack Merridew that White cat also is comfortable with, then sure, the Arbitration Committee should simply press forward. I do not however believe that there are significant practical problems of finding mentors who are acceptable.
What is left is the philosophical issue of whether or not Arbitration should allow any user to veto a mentoring structure, in substance or appearance. While the Arbitration Committee must make the best decision free of the whims of any one editor, it should likewise not make decisions simply to contradict the whims of any one editor, it would not only be counterproductive, but it would be petty as well.
We must finally remember that this "veto" from White cat is not a whim, demand, or opinion, but an involved editor showing us a genuine roadblock. Imagine for a moment that an outside editor, you or me, had pointed out that white cat had conflicts with Moreschi in the past, and that White cat would be unable to communicate effectively if he were harassed. The implications of the point raised are the same, and have practical consequences. Merely because it was White cat who brought it up doesnot make it any more or less true, and it is the point itself, not who brought it up, that should determine the course of action. In summary, if at all possible, lets find some more mentors that White cat is likely to trust and get this show on the road.--Tznkai (talk) 02:50, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by A Nobody

I support Jack Merridew being mentored by Casliber, but I also strongly recommend a ban from AfDs (way too much dishonest use of WP:JNN style of non-arguments) and instead advise that he focus on constructive article development for which I would be willing to colloborate. Just as I have avoided commenting in AfDs for some time now, anyone else should have no problem taking a step back as well as that was clearly one of Jack's conflict areas and for his own good, he would be wise to avoid areas where he is likely to run into conflicts. Actually, it's probably best that the more pollarizing and controversial figures step back from commenting in those discussions and focus on article development anyway as there are plenty of other non-controversial editors who can comment one way or the other. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 19:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Moreschi

Clearly arbcom have not been reading their mail. No interaction or public commenting on White Cat was already explicitly agreed upon in the discussions which have been cced to arbcom-l. By all means vote on it formally, but we had already thought of this one. Otherwise, I will simply limit myself to pointing out that JM is a reasonable fellow, he can be kept away from White Cat, and that I am fully committed to doing so for his own benefit and for that of the encyclopedia. Yours, Moreschi (talk) 21:35, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kww

This is one of the only things where I wind up aligning with Pixelface and White Cat. Jack maintained a pattern of deceptive behaviour that lasted for years. It wasn't just passive deception, either: he actively lied to all of us. We always need good editors, but there is no need to welcome back the chronically deceitful.—Kww(talk) 03:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fram

He is doing good work on other Wikimedia projects? Good, he can continue to do so. But he has used all chances he deserved here, and more. I don't understand the bending over backwards to give some people an umpteenth chance. What message are we supposed to be giving here? Keep him banned from en.wikipedia ad infinitum, and don't waste anymore time on chronic trouble makers. Fram (talk) 09:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jack Merridew

Statement re Jack Merridew ban review motion

It is fully my intent to comply with the terms proposed. Since I was en:blocked, I have discussed the situation with a variety of experienced editors. I have made a great many much appreciated edits to projects other than en:wp; I have more edits elsewhere, than here. I have found the experience on the wider gamut of projects enlightening. I expect to keep a significant focus on the other projects.

I have no issue with FT2's amendments; it has been understood all through these discussions that further interaction is the issue here. I will leave it to others. As to the AC elections, no, my appeal is not motivated by any particular candidacy; as John says, it predates. I have no intention of making the given oppose; it would only serve to inflame. I do object to a complete disfranchisement. I've seen the current discussion re Everyking and what seems a similar situation and I do not feel that my otherwise participating in the process is inappropriate. If such an editing restriction is passed, I will abide by it. It would, however, be a poor precedent to set.

Please noted that;

remains in effect; this has been discussed in emails and should be a part of this.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

addendum;

re: Moreschi's role:

The term 'mediator' has leaked into the discussion; Moreschi's role is as a mentor to (and monitor of) me, not as a mediator between White Cat and myself. My discussions with Moreschi about this whole situation go back to March. I don't really know just what the dynamic between Moreschi and White Cat is; sure, I have seen bits of disagreement, but nothing much, really. I see the concern about this as moot; if White Cat has a concern down the road, there are 1,600+ admins he could consult, and there's the AC itself. FWIW, when he was placed under mentorship, his mentors included Tony Sidaway who was not a disinterested party.

re: FloNight's and FT2's discussion:

This seems to me to be an internal issue about the AC's role spilling out. It is certainly true that a large volume of counsel resides in my inbox; I've read things carefully and believe that I've gotten the appropriate take-away.

re Pixelface:

Oh, dear, good show. Thank you for reminding me that Elizabeth O’Neill warrants an article, too.

Cheers, Jack Merridew 05:47, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Clerk notes

  • Minor formatting changes made to text of motion, would arbiter please review to ensure no meaning was accidentally lost, changed, or added.--Tznkai (talk) 02:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recuse from further clerking, will be adding comment as editor.--Tznkai (talk) 16:59, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • After reading the suggestion for handling the case, I'm proposing a motion here (Clarifications and other requests section of the RFArb main page), and then announcing the proposed motion on AN. Since the precipitate for the last ban was socking in violation of an ArbCom sanction, ArbCom is the venue for a ban review. But in this instance, White Cat and the rest of the Community should have the opportunity to give the Committee feedback before the close of the Committee's vote. There is no need for privacy in this case and maximum transparency will serve the best interest of the Community in this situation.
  • The editing restricts were written based on the comments of the above administrators and have been previewed by ArbCom. The main purpose of the mentorship is monitoring Jack Merridew's account for any editing that will bring Merridew into contact with White Cat. No topic restrictions are spelled out in the restrictions but potential topics for problem editing have been identified and will be monitored. FloNight♥♥♥ 23:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • White Cat, I showed you the proposed motion before I posted it so that you could make suggestions. I wish that you would have let me know about your strong view about Moreschi during our chat so we could have addressed then. Adding several more mentors will be a good approach since it is something that was going to happen in an informal manner, anyway. As stated by others, this request for a ban review pre-dates White Cat's announced candidacy so I don't see that as a particular issue in this situation. Since Merridew can't make comment about White Cat, then voting would be out of the question. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:31, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • This is a banned user appeal where the Arbitration Committee are acting as route of last appeal. "JM" has a long and serious history of harassment, leading to a ban. The question is, can he decide to avoid White Cat now, and can conditions be crafted that ensure he is non-disruptive if given the chance. Those are fair questions; if the disruption has a fair chance of ending, then fine. If it were to be trialled and it were found that he cannot or would not, then the ban would (and should) be reinstated. Because harassment can be as simple as subtle digs, appearing on the same pages, and so on, the only condition that makes sense is complete avoidance of anything that might even slightly give that appearance - and the responsibility for ensuring that, to be JM's alone.

    Users are banned (by the community or Arbcom) usually for serious and persistent behavior issues. When a user has a long term ban (say 3-6 months or more), and behaves during it, then in most cases they may eventually be trialled back as part of the community. This is not a green light for disruption. Relapse risk must be considered, as must the higher barrier for continued trust in their reformation if there were evidence of relapse. Unbans in these conditions should contain some form of strong probation/mentoring if there is any risk of relapse, and a clear understanding that if the behavior resumes, then the ban may very easily be reinstated. This helps them (boundaries), their victims or users the conduct impacts on (deterrent), and the community/project (avoids issues of huge legalisms if they do begin to game or relapse). In brief, a user who is banned, is given good faith trust that they will behave from now on, but is also "on ice" for a long time after, may be more at risk of resumption, and must make sure that the old behaviors are history, as the "unban" hopes that they are. If they do not, then they must expect a reblock/reban may have a much lower "bar" (and unblocking a higher "bar") than it would for a fresh user without such history.

    Having discussed this internally, I am content to give JM a try at unban. However I also feel the unban conditions are grossly inadequate and do not protect White Cat from harassment, the community from resumption, or make it direct or simple enough that a relapse will mean the ban resumes. I therefore propose a further motion 2 which is in addition to motion 1, to remedy these. FT2 (Talk | email) 03:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to lift User:Jack Merridew's indefinite block and editing restrictions.

1) After reviewing User:Jack Merridew's ban at his request, the Arbitration Committee agrees to unblock his account with the following conditions:

  • 1. User:Jack Merridew agrees to edit from one account only "Jack Merridew" on all WMF wikis and unifies that account. (already done)
  • 2. User:Jack Merridew discloses all prior socks. (already done).
  • 3. User:Jack Merridew agrees to not edit using open proxies.
  • 4. User:Jack Merridew agrees to completely avoid White Cat on Wikipedia English pages. No editing the same pages, no comments about White Cat by name or innuendo. No harassment of White Cat in other venues. This restriction will be interpreted in the broadest way with no allowance for any attempt to skirt the restriction in any manner.
  • 5. User:Jack Merridew agrees to avoid all disruptive editing.
  • 6. User:Jack Merridew agrees to a one year mentorship by Moreschi who will closely monitor for any contact with White Cat.
  • 7. It is specifically noted that this is not a "clear your name" unblock, but rather is done on the recommendation of Wikipedia English administrators that are knowledgeable about Jack Merridew's past disruptive editing and now support his return based on his good editing record on other Foundation wikis where White Cat and Jack Merridew both have accounts.
  • 8. Should Jack Merridew violate the restrictions imposed upon him in this decision, he may be blocked for one year by any uninvolved administrator, with any blocks to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Jack Merridew ban review motion#Log of blocks and bans
There are 11 active Arbitrators, so a majority is 6.

Support:

  1. After reviewing the comments of all involved users, I support lifting the ban with these strict editing restrictions. It is my sincere hope that Jack Merridew will honor his promise to stay away from White Cat and over time White Cat will be able to move past the his current understandable suspicions and worries be able to edit with less stress than he's had during the past few years. FloNight♥♥♥ 23:58, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. If and only if 2 and (probably) 3 both pass. Otherwise strong oppose. We should only unban serious past harassment risks if administrator concerns about a relapse or breach of unban conditions will be taken very seriously. We should paint in the clearest black and white what the returning user must (not) do, to reduce the risk of ambiguity, gaming, or fault-shifting. If Jack Merridew is truly sincere, then these will present no problem to him and he will understand why they are required. FT2 (Talk | email) 03:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support. --Deskana (talk) 08:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Support. This is a difficult issue but I find myself on balance agreeing with John Vandenberg that Jack Merridew has done enough to warrant a final chance. The conditions imposed here are among the most onerous the committee has ever imposed. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

Abstain:


2) In the event that Jack Merridew is blocked by any administrator for a matter relating to breach of the above terms, any unblock is only to be decided by consent of this Committee, following any communal discussion in the usual place.

Support:

  1. FT2 (Talk | email) 03:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I think that the community is perfectly capable of handling the unblock requests of someone that is blocked for harassment. But at the same time, it's perfectly acceptable for us to monitor this. --Deskana (talk) 08:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support; I hope this procedure never happens. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

  1. First, I don't think that special enforcement is needed in this situation. It is significant to note that no admin unblocked the Jack Merridew account despite it not having a special enforcement clause as proposed. If you look through the block log, everyday admin block accounts for harassment and personal attacks. Admins are sensitive to these issues and deal with them regularly. The indefinite block on the Jack Merridew account was done during a Community discussion so there was some ambiguity about how this unblock request should be handled. During a discussion about how to handle this unblock request several ideas were suggested with all of them being reasonable ways to address it. I decided to make it a formal ArbCom ban review instead of having one of the involved admins open an unblock discussion at AN. I did this because I think that AE is a better venue for handling any question about enforcing the sanction or re-writing them if needed.

    Second, the Committee does not have a good track record for managing our cases load in a prompt manner. Until we address this problem, I'm not in favor of excluding alternative methods of handling a situation unless there is an absolute reason for doing it (such as an privacy issue or extraordinarily sensitive issues such as pedophilia related account blocks.)

    Third, alternative methods of dealing with unblock requests need to be addressed in a more systematic way with the Community. An ban review committee or another alternative way to comprehensively address the growing backlog of requests. Each of these cases deserve to have the attention of experienced impartial users who can craft editing restrictions that will be enforced. This is not something that the Committee should be doing on a regular basis because it is too time consuming.

    Fourth, if an individual administrator is using their tools outside of Community norms then it needs to be addressed with them in a direct way. If there is wide spread disagreement in the general Community and among admins about whether a block is appropriate, heavy handed enforcement is usually not the best approach for the Committee to use since the default should be less enforcement not more.

    Fifth, more comprehensive discussions about how to handle the different types of harassment, wikihounding, and bullying need to occur in appropriate venues on site.

    Last, the Committee needs to guard against putting in place provisions that might lead to more insular thinking. We need to make sure that our policies and practices do not make it more difficult for the Community to reverse a poorly written decision. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Whether or not it may have been needed in past reviews of this user,
    1. I do not know whether it will be needed in future ones. There are strong communal concerns (see above), and when it comes to a serious harassment case I want the ability to put a foot on the brake with no risk of gaming, "unblock pile-on" or the like, if there were a potential problem, until we have reviewed the incident.
    2. I emphatically don't accept "we're too busy" as an excuse for not giving the project an a harassed user the appropriate level of protection - if that is so then we'll just have to make time when it comes up, as we did for this appeal.
    3. If processes change then good; this is not a "usual case", it is a serious harassment case, and needs unusual safeguards in place.
    4. (4 onwards) The community has had consensus on poor unblocks before. Not one thing you've said explains how you will prevent gaming, politicizing or pile-ons of an unwise unblock if some admins decide to do this.
    To underline the issue, this is a user with a past history of serious harassment. We are trialling his reintroduction to the community. If he acts well (as we hope) then thsi is academic. If not, then this is very far from academic indeed, given the activity surrounding some other unblock AE cases. In brief - I disagree completely with your line of thinking. Rosy glasses and "it'll all work out anyway" are no substitute for being a bit blunt at times and allowing for the prevention of plausible unban problems. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    You might be making some false assumptions about how the situation will play out. There is a danger that the Community left to there own devises would have decided to keep him blocked but the Committee might vote to reverse the block. After we unblock, there may be bad will between the Committee and users that feel that their concerns were not addressed. This just as likely to happen as the reverse. This error would not happen if the Community is permitted to do the initial review. I strongly prefer to keep to our ordinary role of assisting in settling disputes when the Community can not decide and some mechanism must be used to settle the situation. It is not our place to substitute our opinion for the Community's. FloNight♥♥♥ 02:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain:


3) Condition 4 is amended to add the following explicit clarifications:

"User:Jack Merridew agrees to completely avoid White Cat on Wikipedia English pages. No editing the same pages, no comments about White Cat by name or innuendo. No harassment of White Cat in other venues. This restriction will be interpreted in the broadest way with no allowance for any attempt to skirt the restriction in any manner."

"In particular, if White Cat is editing a page, Jack Merridew is responsible for not editing that page, its closely related pages, or commencing editing on closely related topics elsewhere. If it is a well known page such as ANI, and both have genuinely valid reasons for editing it, Jack Merridew is responsible for ensuring he edits it only on a matter different from, and with timing or manner that has no connection to, any of White Cat's posts there."

Support:

  1. FT2 (Talk | email) 03:55, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Deskana (talk) 08:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

  1. As discussed on the mailing list, the editor has been counseled about his editing restrictions in an much more extensive manner than this extra wording adds. In general extra wording on our cases leads to more confusion and adds to the potential for wiki-lawyering. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:03, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, the point slips. A concern is expressed about conditions, your response is we don't need to set conditions because the editor has been "counselled". This (off-wiki) "counselling" carries minimal weight, and be far more open to disputing or "disagreeing about what lines were drawn", than a plain and direct statement of clarification, if there were a problem. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:12, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The comments by people looking at the editing restrictions prior to my posting them did not suggest that more details were needed. You were the only person out of 20+ people reading them that suggested and supported this change in wording. Traditionally Wikipedia has used less details in policy and sanctions because real life experience shows trying to nails down details with wordy passages causes more problems than it prevents. This point was made to you by another arbitrator to you during ArbCom's discussion of the proposal. So that was the reason that I did not change the wording that you suggested and instead suggested that you offer it as an alternative if you still thought it was needed. The role of the mentor(s) is to counsel the editor. There has been a large amount of discussion with Merridew in anticipation of this request. Past and ongoing counseling by a mentor is a necessary part of this situation. I have confidence that the mentor(s) will set good guidelines for him. FloNight♥♥♥ 02:46, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain:


Request to amend Coolcat, Davenbelle and Stereotek

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Review of White Cat's sanction related to mediation

White Cat has requested the Arbitration Committee review and lift Remedy 1 in the Coolcat, Davenbell, Steretek Case.

Statement by Ryan Postlethwaite

I would suggest that this motion isn't as straight forward as some seem to think it is. White Cat was originally banned from mediating disputes because he was mediating them where he had a clear point of view and often made the situation worse. Lifting a ban on mediation would allow White Cat to request to join the mediation committee and probably free reign to mediate any dispute he feels like for the mediation cabal. I suspect that a request to join the mediation committee would be unsuccessful, but I also suspect that participants of mediation cabal mediations would not be aware of the full facts and therefore accept him as the mediator. There's little stopping him from getting involved in the highly contentious disputes where his involvement could potentially be highly problematic. To put it bluntly, whilst White Cat does some extremely beneficial work on wikimedia projects, I believe he doesn't have the right demeanor to mediate any dispute here. I've seen him jump into too many disputes head first without looking at the overall picture or understanding what it's about. I'd thereofre suggest that the ban on White Cat mediating should stay in place indefinitely - there's plenty of other things he can do here. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 20:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by White Cat

To clarify the concerns of Ryan Postlethwaite and anyone else. I am uninterested in mediating at this point. When I tried to mediate in 2005, I was merely trying to help (no good deed goes unpunished). I was not trying to destroy wikipedia. I understand I was no good at mediating back then and I am unsure if I am any good at mediating right now. So I myself feel I am less than ready to mediate and wouldn't expect anyone else to feel otherwise. I hope people can agree with thus far.

Mediating is an art not everyone can do. Many users on Wikipedia should never mediate a dispute but this does not mean they should be banned from doing so. There are many users out there who should never touch Mediawiki:Common.css but that should not mean over 80% of the current admins should be sanctioned by arbcom from doing so.

Despite all that I am very tired of explaining the circumstances behind the ban even on issues when the ban itself does not apply. The circumstances behind it is quite complex and it gets more complicated over time. If anyone asks...

  • I would need to start explaining the entire dispute between me and Davenbelle (aka Moby Dick aka Jack Merridew) and that four year old harassment case. After all Davenbelle played a key role.
    • I would need to explain all remedies in the rfar case on 2005. (linked case)
    • I would need to explain all remedies in the rfar case on 2006. (Moby Dick case)
    • I would need to explain issues surrounding User:Diyarbakir in 2007 and the relevant checkuser case.
    • I would need to explain several issues surrounding User:Jack Merridew in 2008
    • The complexity of that case may get even more complicated over time.
  • I would need to explain other remedies concerning me on the 2005 case. (linked case)
  • I would need to do my best in explaining why this remedy will not ever expire (how it only expires if and only if I get an official MedCom seat and how that will not happened to a user who has an outstanding arbcom sanction on Mediation).

...and so on...

The arbcom ban was and still is a bit flawed too. It does not even clarify what kind of an action would be taken in the event of me mediating. I guess what I am trying to say is the arbcom remedy has a lot of room where I can game around. To date I have made no attempt to game around the remedy. Basically the remedy itself was never used. I am told it was in fact ancient history no one cared about until I brought it up.

So please give me a break.

-- Cat chi? 07:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Seddon

I will be making a statement within the next few hours on behalf of the coordinators of WP:MEDCAB, myself, Xavexgoem and PhilKnight. I would ask that this clarification is not closed before making this statement.

Seddσn talk Editor Review 17:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • After discussion with White Cat and reviewing the past circumstances that lead to the sanction, I support lifting the sanction that restricts mediating. Based on my conversion with White Cat, he does not intend to immediately start involving himself with mediating disputes, but would like to be able to participate in discussions without the burden of explaining the reason for an active ArbCom sanction. Given the long length of time from the date of the sanction (Case Closed on 5 October 2005), I think it is a reasonable request and make the following motion to lift the sanction.— Preceding unsigned comment added by FloNight (talk • contribs) 17:06, November 15, 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment:Ryan, you misunderstand the current sanction. The ruling did not prevent him from requesting to join MedCom, it merely restricted informal mediation, so there is no change in status with the Mediation Committee. In general, I'm not comfortable leaving an indefinite ArbCom sanction hanging over the head of an user when lifting the sanction will cause no harm. I've discussed his interest in doing mediation, and he tells me that it is not something that he plans to do at this time. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:53, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have asked the Mediation Committee to submit their view on this, and will be guided by what they feel. FT2 (Talk | email) 04:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note that nothing in that ruling prevents White Cat joining MedCom (in fact the sanction automatically ends if MedCom accept him); it does however prevent him mediating informally or as part of Medcab. I do not have a problem with open ended sanctions, provided they are subject to periodic review to see if the consensus is they are still needed. FT2 (Talk | email) 04:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to lift Coolcat, Davenbell, Steretek Case Remedy 1.

1) Remedy 1 in the Coolcat, Davenbell, Steretek Case is no longer in force.

There are 11 active Arbitrators, so a majority is 6.

Support:

  1. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Sam Blacketer (talk) 18:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Support. I'd like to clarify why I am supporting this. Mediation is a totally optional process, in all forms. By supporting the removal of this sanction, it is still possible for users who are unhappy with White Cat mediating their disputes to refuse to let him mediate their dispute, and seek another mediator, so it's not like we're forcing him on users who do not want him. It seems somewhat silly, at this stage, to refuse to let White Cat mediate if a group of users are happy with him doing so for their dispute. --Deskana (talk) 19:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Kirill (prof) 20:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

Abstain:

  1. Pending response from the Mediation Committee. If the Mediation Committee had sufficient doubts as to not recommend this, then I would wish to think twice and discuss further, before saying otherwise. FT2 (Talk | email) 04:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request to vacate Matthew Hoffman case

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

I've also notified a couple people who were tangentally involved, they can decide if they wish to add their names. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

A few months ago, Newyorkbrad encouraged me to open a new request related to the core of this case, but the wounds were too raw, and I was unable to set out my evidence calmly at that time, so delayed.

I ask that we reopen the matter now.

In this case, the arbcom, while I was suffering from severe depression, illness, and on the verge of nervous breakdown from the monetary situation at the time - I was literally faced with being homeless - opened a case with no prior dispute resolution - I had never had so much as an RfC on me - and chose me to be a test case. In the end, combined with the other events, this forced me to drop out of university. I left Wikipedia over it, and it was only the active, constant encouragement of User:Newyorkbrad, User:Durova and a few others that brought me back after several months.

A sitting arbitrator launched a campaign of harrassment throughout the case pages, unchecked by the other arbitrators. Here are some samples. This all took place over a single bad block, made two months before the Arbcom case was opened.

In the initial lead in to the case, I had offered to let Charles Matthews take over the block, in e-mail, because there was no way that I could review it competently at that point in time. He said that was "not good enough", so I put it up on ANI.

Charles Matthews specifically says at one point that my refusal to simply to defer to his judgement is why he opened this case and pushed so hard for my desysopping:

Bear in mind, please, my approach. I intended to get Vanished user to correct this mistake, voluntarily, in such a way as could appear a personal realisation that something had not been right, something had been excessive. In such a way that no review process had been needed. An admin had reconsidered an indef block, had read the log - "gosh, that was too strong - a month is enough - didn't mean to put it that way". Unblocks, leaves a Talk page note to MH. Vanished user and I would have had a little secret. End of story: MH might have left the site, but the matter would have ended in no fanfare. Why do we have a test case? For precisely this reason: the indef block was made in such a way as to obstruct this entirely humane and non-accusatory private review, discussed as between colleagues. Now, I would treat the next bad block just the same way: private email; talk page note, "did you have a mail from me?", no topic mentioned; another private mail, saying more clearly waht the issue is; another private mail asking for attention to the matter; a further mail saying you really ought to give this some attention, and, no, we should talk before you take this to any forum. Tell me, please, whether I'm not acting in the interests of everyone? As opposed to - I start an AN/I thread saying "Vanished user blocked badly here, and here's my case", and we get an adversarial discussion. Charles Matthews 21:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[N.B. I used to edit under my real name. I will be censoring it wherever it appears, and would ask that if anyone mentions it that it be immediately deleted]

As he did not get my consent immediately (though I did unblock in the end), Charles Matthews then launched a campaign of harassment against me, using the power of the Arbitration committee to harass without fear of rebuttal. A complete read through of the case pages would be necessary to see this in full, so I'll just give a couple typical comments by Charles.


His harassment was not devoted to me, he also referred to other editors in the same over-the top terms:

To quote MastCell's response to the last:


However, Charles did not act alone, he was aided and abbetted by the other arbitrators, who actively defended his right to harrass me:


Furthermore, the arbitrators were clearly not interested in anything I had to say in my defense: The case opened on 17:40, 2 December 2007 [10]. Within 13 hours of this, and before I had had the chance to provide a single word of evidence in my defense, Uninvited Company set out proposed decisions saying my statements were not borne out by the facts, to sanction Chaser for not having unblocked Matthew Hoffman, and to suggest I be desysopped.

The problems with this case have been pointed out for several months, but the Arbcom have refeused to deal with it, even to simply remove the harrassing comments by Charles Matthews.


A proposal I made during the case that I be desysopped immediately, in exchange for the case stopping, because of the health and RL problems being severely aggravated by having this case going on as well, was rejected by the Arbcoim in favour of dragging it out, coninuing the case, then opening an RFC. However, in July, the personal details I had volunteered in an attempt to get them to agree to my proposal were thrown back in my face:

"Since the full circumstances of the de-sysopped user were disclosed to the AC in confidence, the only appropriate way for this user to regain the tools is to convince the AC – the only group of users with full knowledge of the situation – that the circumstances have changed such that we have confidence in his ability to handle adminship without problems." - Morven, on WP:RFAR, 23:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC), seconded by Kirill.

The arbcom have very consciously put me in a situation where only a full discussion of my private problems will prevent them from using them to say that the community is unable to comment on my situation, and that they should have the sole right to discuss what should be done with me. I do not trust myself to comment on their behaviour regarding that matter. Suffice to say that when I DID make a disclosure of some of the health problems of that time, e-mails I received from them afterwards criticised me for not being detailed enough, because I had still wished to maintain some sense of privacy.


Other users have agreed that there are problems with this case:

Likewise Raymond arrit et al, Filll, and numerous others, see the last third of the Proposed decision talk page.

I do not care about getting my adminship back, and I accept that the block was incorrect. However, for my own mental health, I want to put this behind me. Likewise, the campaign of harassment is a blight on the arbcom, and I ask the arbcom to vacate it, in full. As it stands, this case remaining is a statement that, if you upset an Arbitrator, the Arbcom reserves the right to open a "test case" against you with mno proevious dispute resolution, and allow the arbitrator to harass you off the site.

Furthermore, the Arbcom's self-regulation is clearly not working. A basic principle needs to be put in place that all Arbcom decisions can be appealed by the community.

For obvious reasons, I will be crossposting to WP:AN, as I'm afraid that for some reason, I don't really trust the arbcom to judge this case fairly.

Thank you,

User:Shoemaker's Holiday, a.k.a. Vanished user. 14:00, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. If the committee would like, I can send them copies of some of the e-mails I got from Charles, or provide other evidence.

Response to Tznkai:

I am requesting the entire case be declared a miscarriage of justice, or, in less inflammatory language, a mistake. That doesn't mean the actions would necessarily be reversed, e.g. me getting sysop back, but the pages should be blanked or something, and the decisions declared no longer part of Arbcom case law. At this point, any other action validates the three-month harassment I went through as part of this case. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:15, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Kirril: Just blank all the pages and leave a note saying it's been withdrawn. That, or something similar, would be sufficient. There's some very nasty stuff on there. I am sorry about this, and I had really hoped we could have dealt with this less publicly, but, well, now that it has been, it's hard to see any other path forwards... Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Sam

In this case, the findings of an arbcom-initiated RfC Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Vanished user were overturned to make a provisional desysop. I am not asking for adminship back and am fully aware that under the current RfA culture I probably never will. What I am asking is for the committee to accept that keeping up an attack piece, where a sitting arbitrator calls people "moral midgets", "dogs", and worse, and in which they harassed a user into a complete breakdown, and then in July unethically used confidential information about that user's health to continue their harassment is something they should not be doing.

What, precisely, in the current decision is so important that it must remain a year afterwards, and how does it justify the gross personal attacks, harassment, and other such things? The only thing that would change by this case being vacated, is that, if I triedd to run an RfA - which I would of course, have no chance of passing, the Arbcom, out of concern for my mental health, would not be able to villify and continue their harassment, by pretending to know anything about my current state of mental health, now that I am not facing being homeless and starving to death, because they knew what my mental health was like when both those things were true. I will urther add that the committee ignored all this information about my health during the case, but only gave any sign they had any knowledge of it at the point they used it to attack me.

The Arbcom has violated my privacy, been part of a harassment campaign against me, and, in July, insisted that I must make a public statement of my private medical details or they would continue holding power over me forever. Show some basic ethics, and stop trying to justify the harassment. The Arbcom has violated basic confidentiality by snidely revealing my health details in July in such a way to make things sound even worse, forcing me to reveal them. Please stop compounding your offenses and let's make a full break with the past, so we can all move on. The longer the Arbcom continues to defend their past bad actions, the more these actions begin to look less like mistakes, and more like intent. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However, I am willing to have Newyorkbrad or FT2 as a mentor if that will help ease the committee's misgivings about making the basic ethical decision.


Second response to Sam

Very well, let's put it aside. You have evidently not looked at the remedies in the case, or it would have been clear that there is very, very little that would be overturned The only restriction that came out of that case was my desysop, (which would not change) and the right to regain the sysop after 6 months by appeal to the committee, with a probation to follow. FT2's commentary makes it clear that this was intended to protect me, in order to assure that I can get adminship back again.

The actual change in consequences is only to remove a proposal that was intended to make sure I could get Adminship back, which I do not want because it involves the Arbcom, and, after what has happened to me in regards to the Arbcom... Well, let's end this statement here. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Per Kirril's Motion

I am willing to be bound by an informal agreement that I will consult the committee, and, perhaps even seek a mentor in order to prepare myself, should I wish to seek adminship. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 21:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To FT2

There had never been an RfC, and no real hint that I was doing anything wrong. Had either of those happened, I would probably have agreed to be much more careful. This is why Arbcom is meant to be the LAST resort in dispute resolution, not the first.

Let's review the finding of facts you mention


Finding of fact #3 justify his block of MatthewHoffman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) include claims of harassment, POV pushing, extreme rudeness, and vandalism... None of these claims are borne out by a review of Hoffman's contributions.

He was clearly a POV-pusher. No reasonable person would deny that. The issue was that there was not sufficient time given to demonstrate a problematic pattern of POV pushing

As for the rest, as described here, I missed some context that mitigated his comments, but there was, at least, rudeness and attacks on others, justified by the context of a grand battle. I looked at diffs, and failed to consider the full context, and, in the typical manner this case was handled, all these mitigating factors were thrown out, even to the point of claiming he was not a POV pusher.

Finding of Fact #4

4) Vanished user's block of Matthew Hoffman for 72 hours, and the subsequent extension of the block to make it indefinite, were both outside blocking policy. The reasoning used to justify the blocks was fallacious, and Vanished user was involved in a content dispute with Hoffman. Further, the justification for the blocks in part is to encourage Hoffman to "cool down," which contravenes blocking policy.


This contains an utter untruth': I had not edited Irreducible complexity since January, as a search of the page history will show. In order to claim I was in a content dispute with him required claiming that having ever expressed any opinion o a subject, even before you became an admin, worked out to a content dispute. Secondly, only blocks with the sole purpose to make people cool down is outside policy. WP:BLOCK makes this very explicit:

Blocks intended solely to "cool down" an angry user should not be used, as they often have the opposite effect. However, an angry user who is also being disruptive can be blocked to prevent further disruption.

The emphasis is in the original. Indeed, the block policy also makes a clear distinction between content disputes and conflict of interest, and, while the latter is discouraged, is not actually forbidden.:

Administrators must not block users with whom they are engaged in a content dispute; instead, they should report the problem to other administrators. Administrators should also be aware of potential conflicts of interest involving pages or subject areas with which they are involved.


FT2 asks for evidence that the decisions made about the Hoffman block were unreasonable. The committtee scraped the bottom of the barrel in order to justify a finding that I was in an active content dispute with Hoffman, mentioning a 7 month old edit to the page as proof. Carcharioth lays out a time scale here Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Matthew_Hoffman/Evidence#Content_dispute_at_Irreducible_complexity_and_Talk:Irreducible_complexity, I presume that, ignoring the actual dates, this is what the Arbcom used to justify its claims of a content dispute.

In short, the heart of the Arbcom decision with regard to the Hoffman matter - which FT2 declares unassailable - is based on a claimed direct violation of policy that never happened. This was pointed out at the time, [11], [12], etc. - FloNight even responded to a seperate point in the first post. The Arbcom pressed forwards with this anyway, enshrining a lie into a decision about me.

Finding of Fact 9.1 This finding implies there's a lot more that could be found, when, in fact, it is the result of an exhaustive review of every admin action I had made, thus making it almost certainly a complete list of what could possibly be found. Every single one of my blocks was reviewed on the evidence page of the Hoffman case, and Kirril can confirm whether he analysed all page protections, but given Finding of Fact #9 taking examples from my entire time as an admin, that's probably the case. If this is, in fact, all there was - and all evidence points to that - it is a much weaker finding than is implied by its similarities to similar findings of this type. Exhaustive or reasonably exhaustive searches should really be clearly labelled as such, anything else will be read as a representative set.

Furthermore, while at least some of the decisions were mistakes, there were mitigating factors:

  • Let's have a look at one of these in detail:

semi-protected Homeopathy a second time, citing IP "vandalism". A review of IP activity from Nov 27 - 30 2007 shows the edits related to POV differences and minor edits, not vandalism (WP:VAND refers)...

However, let's have a look at 25 November:

  • [13] - Vandalism by 202.168.239.186
  • [14] Vandalism by 75.153.9.52
  • [15] Vandalism by 90.203.64.154
  • [16] Further vandalism by 90.203.64.154
  • [17] Vandalism by 81.86.135.171

All of these are oobviously and unambiguously vandalism.

There might have been an arguement that the vandalism was not recent enough to justify semi-protection, however, the finding of fact says there was no vandalism, and claims that "The effect was to exclude IP editors with whom he disagreed as well as IP editors adding valid formatting edits." - implying that was my intent, when a review that covered just a two more days would have shown multi-IP vandalism and people having difficulty getting the reversion levels correct, reverting some of the vandalism, but not all. In a poorly-monitored subject, as Homeopathy was, this is problematic.


We could review the others. These had never appeared in evidence, and, by the time they appeared on the finding page, my health had crashed so far and, the arbcom having ignored all my previous comments, it did not seem that the arbcom cared what had to be said. Clearly, some more care would have prevented an appearance of conflict of interest, however, I was literally the only admin watching many of these pages, and most administrators had been scared off of all action on those pages, due to the poor editing environments there. Conflict of interest might have been an issue, but remember that the Arbcom case was the first procedural discussion of conflict of interest related to me, had any other dispute resolution occurred, I would have very likely accepted the problem and stopped doing the behaviours in question. The arbcom stated, upon taking the case, that the lack of any prior dispute resolution related to me would be taken into consideration.

I believe all the actions are defensible - not that they were correct, but that they were understandable mistakes, given the poor guidance I had, and that, as an inexperienced admin, I was working in one of the most contentious and poorest-monitored sections of Wikipedia. Had the arbcom cared to ask, I would have attempted to give my reasoning.

Here is what the community thought about these findings in the RfC that arbcom arranged to run, then ignored. Uninvited Company - I'm going to simplify this thread a bit, but I believe my summary is accurate - later claimed that the defense of me consisted solely of Scientific-point-of-view proponents and was thus ignored in favour of unnamed and unnumbered people who e-mailed the Arbcom in order to attack me. (Who clearly lacked a point of view?) [18]

On blanking I was told this would be done in February. This is far too little, far too late, and does not even deal with the errors of fact in the findings of fact mentioned above. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by involved party Jehochman

This case was handled badly. I think it would be a very good to erase it completely, on grounds of procedural unfairness. As there is no request to restore adminship, I see that the only action required is for ArbCom to acknowledge this open secret. Jehochman Talk 14:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thebainer, the remedy sought is to have the case vacated. The person in question is not asking for their admin tools back. Given the severe incivility contained in that case (moral pygmy, meddling hypocrite), and the very poor treatment by the Committee of the person making the request (RFAR with no prior DR, insufficient time allowed to present defenses), I think the request is reasonable. By failing to correct these problems when the request comes before you, you all assume responsibility for these events, even if you were not on the Committee at the time they occurred. Jehochman Talk 14:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it would be best for the Committee to pass a motion stating: 1/ personal abuse directed at named parties is denounced, 2/ you recognize that handling of the case was poor, and the Committee will endeavor to do better. Blanking the case would also be a good idea, because it is a poor example. The result can stand because nobody is disputing the outcome. I think these actions, which might appear symbolic, would have the effect of stopping further reference to the case. I for one am very tired of hearing about it. Jehochman Talk 17:11, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sam Blacketer, allowing the person in question to go back to RFA is hardly a concession. Their chances of passing RFA are dim to none. If they want tools back, the easiest way is via the Committee. Perhaps the case can be replaced with a statement that the user gave up the tools under a cloud and can get them back via RFA or appeal to the Committee. Jehochman Talk 14:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Important note to FT2

This case started with the posting of a remedy, before the accused had time to fully respond. Then it was suspended to run an RFC that generally opposed what the Committee was doing, selective enforcement or making one individual into an example to deter others. Then the Committee proceeded to disregard the opinions expressed in the RFC. A variety of us have asked for personal attacks within the case to be denounced or refactored. Thus far, these requests have been ignored. I am asking for two very specific things: 1/ the Committee blanks all the pages. 2/ the Committee makes a public statement recognizing the poor treatment of those involved. Public insults or abuse require a public retraction. Three wrongs don't make a right. The fact that the block was bad does not excuse Committee members to personally abuse those involved, nor does it excuse the Committee as a whole from culpability for conducting a kangaroo court. Cheers, Jehochman Talk 16:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved party Barberio

The manner in which this case was accepted is at best inappropriate opening of a case without allowing it to go through normal channels of having a block overturned. At worst, it appears to be an attempt to game the system by a sitting arbitration member pushing for a speedy resolution in his favour without giving a chance for rebuttal or defence.

I'm also unsettled by the use of 'secret reasons' for the desysop and block on re-admitance. Nor does the remedy sit well with the committee's actions towards more 'establishment figure' administrators who have had similar 'isolated bad decisions'.

In my eyes, the case wasn't taken on correctly, and not enough time was given for a defence. So this case was not legitimate, and none of it's findings or remedies should be active. It should be erased and apologised for.--Barberio (talk) 15:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Sam Blacketer

With all due respect, the Arbitration process is a quasi-legal process, and claiming it isn't makes you appear to deny the reality of how your own committee works, much in the same way people claim there is no bureaucracy in Wikipedia. This is not unusual, quasi-legal processes exist in many associations, such as 'courts' that rule on FIA motor sports rule infractions. You need to recognise that this is a quasi-legal process, and act appropriately.

So since it is a quasi-legal process, you need to make sure your actions don't prejudice someone's case, you need to be as clear and open as you can be, and you need to apply suitable fairness.

You are explicitly not the fire-fighting team tasked with making quick emergency actions. You are supposed to act deliberatively, and urgent injunctions should be injunctions not rushed rulings. If you do not know the difference between an injunction and a ruling then you probably shouldn't be ruling on cases.

It is well within your power to make a temporary injunctions, and then investigate a case deliberatively. Failure to do so puts the legitimacy of the rulings at risk. --Barberio (talk) 11:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, it is my opinion that the current ArbCom claim they do not set precedent, while acting like the do. This appears to be a misunderstanding of what the word precedent means... If you have used the same 'principles' from one case, to another, to another, that is use of precedent. This is standard practice by the ArbCom.

Again, denying you use precedents when you clearly do signals a misunderstanding of your own role.

Combined with the growing attempts to create policy, and hang 'resolutions' such as Motion of clarification in the Tobias Conradi case up as binding rulings, is troubling. --Barberio (talk) 11:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Durova

This request was opened overnight without my knowledge, and I read it on my first cup of coffee. In the interests of avoiding another arbitration, I urge the Committee to consider this motion. In addition to other objections, I have reason to believe the case was initiated upon misleading representations. DurovaCharge! 15:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where a user is being disruptive...the key issue is the disruption... Sam, Shoemaker's Holiday was an administrator in good standing until this out of process case opened against him. He is now an administrator in good standing at Wikimedia Commons. He has been instrumental to getting Wikipedia's featured sound program off the ground, is doing stellar work for the new 'song of the day' main page section on Wikisource, and is in good standing in all other WMF projects where he participates. There has never been any formal dispute resolution action against him, except related to this case. Shoemaker's Holiday has contributed over five dozen featured content items across multiple projects. What more must a man do to demonstrate he is not disruptive, once a bad arbitration case labels him as such?
The case was opened based upon a single month-old block which he had long since put up for noticeboard review, while he was offering to submit it for a second review. He answered all other relevant concerns to the satisfaction of community consensus, during the RFC for which the arbitration was suspended. Yet the arbitrators never substantially changed the proposed decision that had been posted in the first twelve hours of the case, before he had any chance to defend himself. Voting proceeded despite his requests for time to study for university final exams, and the time it took away hurt his grades. I fail to see what purpose is served by retaining this case, other than as a showcase example for critics of ArbCom to demonstrate the Committee's inability to correct its errors or rein in its members, when they level personal attacks. DurovaCharge! 01:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Kirill, I agree that Wikipedia arbitration does not observe the precedents of case law. So far as I know, no prior case has been vacated because there has never been so much cause to do so as here. DurovaCharge! 04:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Amending: Orangemarlin is a precedent, although an unusual one. DurovaCharge! 01:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Martinphi

I seriously question whether he stayed away from Wikipedia for several months. My memory is that he was logging into the admin IRC network under his real name immediately after his case closed. Yes, Shoemaker appeared 18 February 2008 [19], while the case was closed 13 February 2008 [20]. Yet, Shoemaker states above "I left Wikipedia over it, and it was only the active, constant encouragement of User:Newyorkbrad, User:Durova and a few others that brought me back after several months." Whether or not he believes this to be true, I cannot say. If he believes it, he's in no condition to be an admin again. If he doesn't, he's in no condition to be an admin again.

I have been the victim of his continued harassment since I took part in his ArbCom and RfC. If any action would give him back his admin tools, then I strenuously object, as he has continued to be an abusive editor since his desysopping. He already tried, by the regular means, to get his tools back at an RfA. He lost. He has lost the trust of the community. ——Martinphi Ψ~Φ—— 20:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My memory is also that while the ArbCom did not adhere to strict protocol in the case, it nevertheless went out of its way to ensure a full and just hearing of the case. It actually suspended the case pending an RfC. I have absolutely no doubt that if the ArbCom had seen anything in the RfC which indicated that Vanished user should keep his admin buttons, the ArbCom would have revised the case. Indeed, I am fully convinced that there were things which Vanished user could have done to keep his buttons: he could simply have said he was wrong and wouldn't do it again. He didn't. I told him how to keep his buttons, and he didn't do it. I believe the ArbCom was open to being convinced that their initial judgment was wrong, and the RfC failed to convince them. Certainly, Vanished user had many friends, who essentially said "he fights trolls, so excuse him." But that's not an excuse, and the ArbCom knew it. ——Martinphi Ψ~Φ—— 21:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved party Verbal

I have only recently become aware of this, and fully endorse Jehochman's view: it would be very good to erase it completely. This was bad procedure and sets bad precedent. It should never have happened. Verbal chat 21:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Krill: I think blanked and vacated would be the best option here. Verbal chat 09:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Kirill by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

A case was vacated earlier this year, though I'd prefer slightly different wording. If it is to be vacated, perhaps the Committee can vote on a motion that will replace (blank) what's on the case pages: "The Committee declares that the decision viewable in the history is vacated and not in effect. The history of the case pages are preserved for transparency." The Committee may need to issue a further report, or further statements that can hopefully help heal the wounds of those involved. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, it would involve removing the case from the archives. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:24, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(I'm still reviewing this request, but meanwhile a question.) What case was vacated earlier this year? Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Brad, I think he is referring to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Orangemarlin. MBisanz talk 13:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, that's the one - granted, the circumstances were of course somewhat different in that case, I bring it up as an example of how one has been vacated in the very recent past. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum

It is time to embrace the change in approach that the rest of Wikipedia (heck, the rest of the world) have been pushing for more and more recently - this will become even more evident in the next couple of elections. A case was vacated earlier this year; this is another one that needs to be vacated in the manner specified in Kirill's motion.

Tendentious editing, civil POV pushing, problem editing, or whatever else you want to call it, is by far, one of the biggest problems this project is facing. Nothing can be compared to the detrimental effects this has on Wikipedia, the community in general, or those individual users who unfortunately encounter this sort of behaviour regularly.

I've read through this case a couple of times in the past, as if it were any other case. When I noticed many uninvolved members of the community engaging in heated discussion about it off-wiki and criticized certain members of the Committee in an extreme manner, my curiosity was sparked to read it again. I read part of it again just now and this finding got me emotionally charged.

The experience I had when handling a particular problem editor (not that long ago) was disgusting. A number of checkusers (including arb emeritus or arbitrators), as well as admins and editors should have some recollection of who I am referring to. The amount of red tape and formalities I needed to go through (and the time and effort taken) were immensely horrible. It took weeks before there was enough evidence to justify a ban on that problem editor for disruption from sockpuppetry/meatpuppetry - and even that was with some luck. It took months before I was able to demonstrate (for the purposes of red-tape and formality) that the editor had been engaging in POV pushing, extreme rudeness, harassment and general disruption. In any case, I am certain we have all learnt from it. I'm not unexperienced in identifying problem editors - particularly from the sorts of expressions they use, the way they approach a dispute, and the way they approach a dispute. And I'm pretty sure I've been AGF'ing in this regard too. That said, I have no doubt that Matthew Hoffman was one such problem editor based on his contributions.

I was lucky to get through it because of a handful of users from different categories. However, many editors, including one very recently, was not so lucky and left Wikipedia as a result (an arbitrator was made aware of this recently). I appreciate the help the Committee provides in trying to resolve this problem, but this case does not do that; it does the opposite. A large number of the community are afraid to take action due to what may happen to them (i.e. what happened in this case). We're willing to desysop an admin for using some clue and taking action quickly, but we're unwilling to desysop admins who take no action at all? Yes, there were errors in his admin judgement sometimes, but RFC is supposed to provide a 2nd chance. In any case, it's a moot point anyway, as adminship isn't the point of clearing the case.

The case is having a causal effect on editors leaving the project due to the lack of support for community ridding the project of problem editors as early as possible. Such an outcome is not compatible with the goals of this project, and further shakes what confidence the community has in the Committee. I request that the case is vacated in the manner specified in Kirill's well-considered motion so that we can all move on. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Chaser

I was tangentially involved in this case. For the reasons stated by Durova above, I think the committee should simply blank the case, leaving Shoemaker's Holiday without his bit, but removing the restriction on how he might get it back. His not asking for it back gives ArbCom a good opportunity to correct their error without forcing them to the logical conclusion of making him an admin again.

The comments below belie how ArbCom decisions are treated in the community. ArbCom de-sysopping has been called the kiss of death for former admins returning to RFA; this was true for Shoemaker's Holiday despite the name change. Negative FoFs in a case follow editors (particularly project-space heavy editors) around the wiki. The final decision included adding a note to Hoffman's block log that ArbCom found the blocks to be unjustified. Shoemaker's Holiday, still an active editor, deserves at least the same consideration as someone no longer contributing here. He is asking for the Committee to once again officially acknowledge a mistake, but this time its own. In practical terms, replacing the page's contents with a big notice that the case has been vacated, à la Orangemarlin, is appropriate.--chaser - t 22:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Scott MacDonald

I've no knowledge/interest in this case, but note that Krill's motion is dangerously ambiguous. This is done with the understanding that Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · contribs) shall consult with the Committee should he wish to become an administrator. Does Krill mean "consult prior to RfA" or "ask arbcom to resysop" (is an RfA required) and does "consult" mean "get the permission of" or "take advice from"? I've no dog in the race, but the motion is going to cause problems.--Scott MacDonald (talk) 21:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by JoshuaZ

The central claim made in the decision to desysop SH was that he was involved in a content dispute with Matthew Hoffman. Given that the last time SH had edited the page in question was 7 months prior to Hoffman's block, does the ArbCom acknowledge that this claim is incorrect? JoshuaZ (talk) 23:09, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Sticky Parkin

I have said before that having negative findings of "fact" against them is very vile for the individual, especially if it involves judgments about a person's character, dismissiveness or other obnoxiousness (not saying this is the case here, but in general.) It would be difficult to 'vacate' an entire case, but I think the person should be allowed right to reply at the bottom of the decisions page if they feel false things have been said about them, otherwise a final judgement is made against them which will stand on wikipedia for years to come. Definitely an addendum should be added by the arbs if some false things they said about someone are later seen to be false- or those comments the arbs made which are later seen to be false should be struck out. Or is there Arbcom Infallibility? Clearly not as I like to think we're all partly human, and that arbcom can sometimes admit any errors or excessive obnoxiousness. Sticky Parkin 02:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Arbitrator comments

  • I'm open to doing something constructive here in principle; but I'm not quite sure precisely how that might be framed. Arbitration cases are explicitly not binding precedent (and not really even advisory precedent); so the "case law" analogy doesn't really work. We don't, therefore, have any established method for vacating a case, per se—overturning it, yes, but not vacating it. What would you like to see in practical terms? A blanking of the case pages? A motion naming the case as being "vacated"? Or something else? Kirill (prof) 01:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commenting in general, I think that there is here too great an assumption that arbitration on wikipedia works in a quasi-legal fashion with notions of fairness to the parties applied as they would be in a criminal law case in an adversarial court system. That is not how it works. The concept of fairness applies primarily to the project as a whole. Where a user is being disruptive for matters outside their control, then arbitrators must still act to restrict them to prevent disruption even if doing so appears to be unfair or harsh on the user. To express it another way, the key issue is the disruption and not what lies behind it. In this immediate case the active members of the committee at the time (I was not participating, having only just been appointed) have apologised for the way the case was handled, but not for the decision.
Where that does come in is when we assess whether to remove restrictions. If a user has been disruptive because of some definite cause, and that cause no longer applies, then we ought to remove any restrictions placed on them because they are no longer needed. In this case I see a great deal of argument about whether the original case was decided appropriately but I see precious little to inform me about what positive actions are requested, and how they would benefit Wikipedia. I would like to see this point argued before I go to vote. I endorse everything Kirill says above about the uselessness of 'precedent'; the committee refuses to be bound by precedent so in effect it does not exist as such. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response to Shoemaker's Holiday: I'm afraid that yet again a request for information about how to benefit the project going forward has been met with information about how decisions in the past were wrong. The most that I think can be done is to courtesy blank the Matthew Hoffman case, and I'm willing to support that, but formally 'vacating' it would be a meaningless act. I am at a loss to know how you interpret Morven's comments as an invitation to disclose confidential information to the community: they are instead plainly a statement that any application for your resysopping should go to the committee in order to preserve confidentiality. As you are not at present applying for resysop the issue does not arise anyway. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:37, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What remedy do you seek? I doubt the Committee would consider revisiting the outcomes, given the facts as they existed then and now. Blanking would achieve little, given that your account was already renamed, the case of course existing under the username of the user you blocked. If people are in a mood to be revisiting things, then let's revisit the discussion of problems in our admin culture that was the substratum to the case, which has not proceeded in all this time. --bainer (talk) 02:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re Jehochman, I appreciate that what is sought is that the case be "vacated", but what is that intented to mean in substance? --bainer (talk) 08:28, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I joined Arbcom a month into the case, and so one of my first questions was to review it carefully. The case was initially brought to get a review of the rise in "newbie biting" culture, by reviewing the behavior of those involved in the Matthew Hoffman block and its declined unblock, and assessing if Shoemaker's Holiday had acted properly as an administrator. By itself, this was one block 2 months previous to the case. It would probably not have led to a serious result of the form Charles Matthews had requested. The case was formally accepted due to the divisive issues and to help resolve doubts, a reasonable view. Charles' Matthews also stated that a good explanation was still outstanding despite email requests chased up on the users' talk page in November.

    On that basis, I would consider the case valid. But that wasn't all. By the time I reviewed, I found that there had not been just one mildly questionable block 2 months before the case. There had been multiple clear misuses of admin access, not just one, documented – easily sufficient (in my book) to show a pattern, and easily enough for an RFAR or a request to the Committee to take action. (See for example Findings of Fact # 3, 4, and 9.1.) It is common for a case to be accepted, and then adjust to take account of new factors that are presented in evidence. In this case the new factors included a worrying number of "bad" blocks, not just one. The most recent had been mere days before the case opened, ie at the end of November (and 19 hours before the RFAR case request was posted), not 2 months previous. Any one of those blocks alone might have been enough to formally warn an administrator at RFAR.

    It is obvious and clear that the case process, handling, and so on, was extremely upsetting to Shoemaker's Holiday, some of which I agree with him on, some of which I think he's leaning on too much and isn't merited. Most of the case is history, and that's good. Shoemaker's Holiday has gotten past the issues mostly and that's good. But vacating the case would be asking for agreement the case was not valid, and should never have been heard, and I can't agree on that. I can only agree it should have been heard better in terms of handling than it was - a state of affairs for which numerous statements of apology have been sought and given and I'm at a loss to see what yet another can do. The case (and its final decision) were viable; the "how it got there" which is the issue, is secondary and has been discussed at length. The notion of "I need this case vacated for my own personal peace of mind" doesn't work for me since arbitration cases exist to serve the project, and there was a clearly reasonable and well evidenced project need for it (since bad adminship is a serious concern), even if this could have been processed, documented and followed up a lot better than it was. FT2 (Talk | email) 06:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(On a side, even if one looks at the initial grounds of the case (the block of Matthew Hoffman) alone, and nothing else, not one user has shown good evidence that 1/ Matthew Hoffman's block was in fact correct, 2/ The decision that condemned that block was unreasonable, or 3/ That an administrator who makes such a block, leading to controversy between administrators, should not have their block directly reviewed at RFAR. In fact it is the norm for desysop requests to go to RFAR without "prior dispute resolution". That Charles may have spoken poorly in his comments, does not change that the case was valid and accepted. FT2 06:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Motions

1) All pages of the Matthew Hoffman case shall be blanked and replaced with a notice that the case is vacated. This is done with the understanding that Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · contribs) shall consult with the Committee should he wish to become an administrator.

Support:
  1. Kirill (prof) 21:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
  1. Would not vacate, for reasons above. Whatever the closure value of this might be, and however much upset some parts of the handling may have caused, the roots of the case itself were serious, valid, and the case appropriately brought to RFAR, when I reviewed it. Many users have objections to an RFAR case where they were parties, but vacating a case implies more than "some process lapses". It would imply the entire case had no grounds, or that a massive mistake of fact that was later recognized, means that the beliefs the decision was based upon, were grossly mistaken. Even if one looked at the initial grounds of the case request alone, and nothing else, the case was valid. FT2 (Talk | email) 06:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. No. I would support courtesy blanking but not 'vacating'. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain:

1.1) All pages of the Matthew Hoffman case shall be courtesy blanked. This is done with the understanding that Shoemaker's Holiday (talk · contribs) shall consult with the Committee should he wish to become an administrator.

Support:
  1. Second choice, although frankly I can't fathom what the benefit of blanking but not vacating is, at this late stage. Kirill (prof) 05:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose:
Abstain:

Clarification on arbitration restrictions with respect to ArbCom election

How do my arbitration restrictions apply with regard to the current ArbCom election? Specifically, I am barred from communicating with and even acknowledging the existence of one of the candidates. Will the ArbCom allow me to submit questions to that candidate as part of the process? Furthermore, will I be allowed to take part in the vote on his candidacy? This is a request for clarification, not an appeal. Everyking (talk) 23:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I want to stress, going back to the crux of the entire case in 2005, that the right to ask questions or vote is something I am happy to sacrifice—provided the same restriction applies to Phil Sandifer. The crux of the case was that Phil wanted to preserve his right to criticize me while depriving me of my right to criticize him; the reason our pre-arbitration agreement fell through was because he chose to speak critically about me while I had already agreed to refrain from speaking critically about him. All I have ever asked with regard to Phil Sandifer is that the ArbCom treat us equally and apply either mutual restrictions or no restrictions; currently, restrictions apply only to me, treating me as a stalker and harasser while making Phil appear to be a victim, which is a smear on my reputation—and that's the central reason why I have objected so frequently and vigorously to these sanctions over the last three years. So in effect what I am asking in this particular matter is that the ArbCom either grant me the right to question and vote or formally withdraw Phil Sandifer's right to question and vote in the event that I were to run for ArbCom (which I am not planning to do this year).

Another situation also comes to mind: AfDs. On several occasions, Phil has nominated articles for deletion when I felt they should be kept, but because historically the ruling has always been interpreted contrary to my interests, I was afraid to actually register my opinions in the AfDs. Will the ArbCom on this occasion clarify whether the ruling should apply to AfDs? Mind you, the same situation as above applies here: I am happy to sacrifice this right if the same restriction is applied to Phil. Everyking (talk) 06:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the comments from the arbitrators so far, I gather that there is a strong consensus in favor of letting me vote and a somewhat weaker consensus in favor of letting me ask questions. I doubt that I will ask Phil any questions, but if I do I will be careful to do so in as uncontroversial a manner as possible. Would it now be possible for the arbitrators to also comment on the issue of AfDs, as I mentioned above? Everyking (talk) 05:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Phil, I am not seeking a "one-time exception"; I am seeking the right to vote and ask questions any time Phil runs for ArbCom, not just on this single occasion. I hope very much that these restrictions will not exist for much longer, but that isn't something I can count on. Everyking (talk) 05:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Jehochman

This request is about allowing me the opportunity to participate in the election on an equal basis. I have no particular question in mind and I don't know if I would make use of the opportunity to ask a question. I would certainly vote, though, if that was allowed. Everyking (talk) 00:43, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Jehochman

I am unfamiliar with the details of this case. In general it would be a step towards civility if editors did not view these elections as an opportunity for target practice with their favorite throwing axe. No, conflicts should be sorted via dispute resolution. An oppose vote should be allowed, even if the editors have a history or if there is an injunction prohibiting interaction. However, asking loaded questions or placing an excessive volume of criticism on the candidate's discussion page might be disruptive. This standard should also be considered for our requests for adminship process. Jehochman Talk 00:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Scott MacDonald

I'm not really getting this. Sure, Everyking should be able to record his inevitable "oppose" to Phil's candidature. But what on earth can be his pressing need to ask an election question? If he's restricted from interaction, then he shouldn't interact. Let's face it, it isn't as if candidates are going to be so short of questions that Everyking is going to have a pressing need to interrogate. Pragmatically, his question is unlikely to make any difference to this election at all. (And, on the odd chance, his question is uniquely profound, he can phone a friend to ask.)

Frankly, this looks like an opportunity to wikilayer in a way that looks on paper justified, but in truth is drama for no return. When people are put under sanctions, then there is a cost - thankfully, the cost here is a "right" that Everyking neither needs, nor the exercise of which would be in least beneficial to the project. --Scott MacDonald (talk) 14:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Ultraexactzz

In theory, objectionable questions can be removed if consensus deems them offensive or unacceptable in some fashion. I have no particular preference or request for the committee in favor or against permitting Everyking's participation, but I would note that a process exists for removing problem questions. Similar rules exist for voting, where votes with personal attacks or other shenanigans can be truncated or removed entirely. Looking from a process standpoint, then, there is little to fear from a user posting objectionable questions or votes, as both would swiftly be removed.

Scott MacDonald raises an interesting point, as the sanction - as currently worded - might preclude even a vote in the election, such vote being construed as a "comment about..." which is prohibited. Everyking is an eligible voter - being under Arbcom sanction does not itself disqualify him or anyone - so I might recommend that the committee either explicitly permit him to cast a vote, either normally or without further comment, or alternatively, permit him to cast a proxy ballot in some fashion yet to be determined. Either way, the committee's decision clearly did not contemplate a situation like this, so a clarification is definitely in order. UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 21:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Phil Sandifer

Sorry - I somehow missed the notification here. In any case, I have no problems whatsoever with a one-time exception for this, and would encourage the committee to allow Everyking to ask whatever questions he wants. Phil Sandifer (talk) 20:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

  • Phil Sandifer notified.--Tznkai (talk) 07:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments moved to appropriate sections.--Tznkai (talk) 07:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section heading now links to relevant case.--Tznkai (talk) 07:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe the opinion of the committee can be summarized as "Everyking may both vote for/against and pose questions to Phil Sandifer during Arbitration Committee Elections, as long as such things are done within existing policy and reason." I'd like to shuffle this off as resolved in 24 hours or less.--Tznkai (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Everyking has asked me hold on clearing this off the table until there is a clarification on Everyking's participation in AfDs. Is this clarification likely to come?--Tznkai (talk) 13:19, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator comments

  • I do not think the existing restrictions can reasonably be construed as forbidding Everyking from posing general questions to, or voting for or against, the candidate in question. Tentatively and subject to further input, although the literal interpretation is more debatable, I would also oppose interpreting the restrictions so as to bar Everyking from posing individualized questions to the candidate, although any questions focusing on the events of several years ago that led to the restrictions (which events I have not studied in detail and have no comment on) should be avoided. Before a consensus is reached here, however, a Clerk should kindly provide Phil Sandifer with notice of this thread. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I broadly agree with NYB here. The matter of individual questions is, admittedly, somewhat more vague than one of general questions (which, in the current structure, are posted to a central page and therefore don't constitute interaction in any case) or voting; but I am inclined to let you ask questions freely, so long as they don't cross the line and become harassment of a candidate—which should already be covered by standard conduct policies. Kirill (prof) 00:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with the above; as long as Everyking is asking reasonable questions in a calm way, he ought not to be prevented. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many users are aware there has been historical "bad blod" between these two, so any questions asked will surely be reviewed with that knowledge. If the questions are fair and good ones, then I would not wish Everyking to be deprived of sufferage to ask them. Whoever is appointed he will have to live with it. Because of the history though, a pointy or "biased" style of questioning or vote comment, or a question that was not asked in a fair and balanced way, might get seen negatively, and may result in a decision that it's best to separate them again (or at least have the wording of his questions checked before posting).

    So on principle, I would not interpret the existing decision to prevent Everyking asking reasonably useful questions to Phil Sandifer as a candidate, and I would not interpret them to prevent him voting. I would not intercede if he happened to state fairly, "I do not feel confident in you" or explained any concerns in a balanced manner, for example. But if the questions or vote did cause concern, or became a rehash of past history cases, then I would look for Everyking to be responsive to others, and if necessary, for intervention or "sanitization", to ensure it isn't misused. Bottom line is, yes, he has the right to ask sensible and fair questions and to cast a vote of his opinion. Just not a right to misuse or "platform" in doing so. FT2 (Talk | email) 13:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with Newyorkbrad. General questions and voting by you on all candidates would never have raised on eyebrow by anyone. Since Phil Sandifer chose to run for a position where listening to heavy criticism by users is the rule rather than the exception, his ability to answer a few fairly worded question should not be a problem. If the questions cross the line to harassment then our usual user conduct standards as well as the sanction can be applied by the community. Unsolicited advice (so feel free to ignore): Everyking, I encourage you to use your suffrage as a way to impress the Community with your ability to participate in a way that adds good value to important Community matters. I see this as an excellent opportunity for you to change some minds about your ability to review situations and make appropriate insightful comments about a matter. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motion to amend Bharatveer case

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Toddst1

Bharatveer (talk · contribs) has a long history of disruption of Wikipedia, particularly on India-related articles. Before and as the subject of remedies and restrictions from the previous RFAR, he or she has been blocked numerous times for 3RR violations, parole violations and most recently by me for incivility and disruptive editing, bringing the number of blocks to a total of 10. 4 of these blocks occurred after the previous RFAR. The restrictions and remedies meted out in previous RFAR: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Bharatveer#Remedies expired 3 weeks ago on 21 October 2008.

Since the subsequent blocks are the result of very similar issues to the previous RFAR, (reverting in violation of restriction, 3RR, incivility) and it is clear that this problematic editor has not changed his or her problematic pattern of editing, I am asking that the duration of the previous remedies and restrictions be extended for at least another year, and possibly tightened at the committee’s discretion.

Response to bainer's question: I couldn't call my involvement a content dispute:

I hope this helps.Toddst1 (talk) 02:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While I welcome a review of my actions here (as I did at ANI), I ask that the arbs review the statement by Dseer from the original case as I think it is applicable and appropriate here - specifically the part about dealing with other editors. (I haven't observed any bigotry) Toddst1 (talk) 14:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pectore

While Bharatveer has some major editing issues (I would personally suggest a long Wikibreak, as that should clear the ol' cranium a bit), we need to look at the conflict on such pages more holistically and perhaps look at other users involved in this edit-warring. My philosophy is that it takes two to tango, and that as a failed mediation case shows, there is a gigantic dichotomy of perception between certain groups here. Incivility and belligerence is sadly the norm on both sides of the dispute, and I've certainly witnessed some vile invective and falsification, the most humorous from users discussing the validity of english language sources who can barely speak English themselves.

Point by point look at issues raised.
  • Hindu Taliban is a gigantic neologism. I personally think its notable and would not vote delete on it, but a report filed by some trolling IP is meaningless. South Asian articles are filled with these ideologues, hoping to gain their fifteen seconds of fame. Unless we see more evidence of wrongdoing, theres nothing here to go off of. I can see where BV is coming from on this issue, but I think there is enough legitimate criticism of such a nebulous term that he is missing by concentrating solely on elimination.
  • The Binayak Sen article is a huge clusterfuck. The article needs to be shortened, and Bharatveer's version made the article almost readable. If anything he should be commended for confronting a hagiographical IP warrior.
  • Chandrayaan - Bharatveer is definitely at fault here. I see no reason to remove the statement of Obama. The world revolves around America, get over it. However, let us see what BV has to say. ;)
  • His accusations hardly merit a block in any way. There is no justifiable basis for using an almost civil statement as a pretext for a punitive block, when that is not even the purpose of a block.
  • Wikipedia:Ani#Block_review_please brought no real consensus. Moreschi supported the block, Gnagarra didn't.
  • Also I would request Bainer to bring forth his evidence of Todd's edit warring, so that we can view that in light of Todd's case.

Ayubowan.Pectoretalk 04:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dseer = worthless evidence

Dseer appears to be little more than an attention-craving troll, whose testimony is extremely suspect. He seems to be an ideologue, whose evidence was countered by a few users 1, 2. Both these users certainly had their own issues, but the fact of the matter is that testimony from ideologues is meaningless.Pectoretalk 02:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Otolemur crassicaudatus

Pot. Kettle. Black. Really? Here's what 30 seconds of digging got me

  • Removing an extremely well sourced criticism of the Communist Party of India. Hmm, interesting how you accuse Bharatveer of the same
  • Use of ideologues (Arundhati Roy) to create illusions of societal criticism [21][22], when under no interpretation of WP:RS or WP:BLP is such non-expert testimony welcomed.

Again, pot, kettle, black. What we have are two users in glass houses throwing stones at each other. lol.Pectoretalk 02:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Googlean

A bad hand sock used solely for POV pushing is calling out a POV pusher? Thank you for defending Wikipedia, Googlean. Administrators can view a relevant ANI thread and a relevant Sockpuppet case for more details.Pectoretalk 02:05, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, looks like Googlean has been indefinitely blocked for being a sockpuppet of Avineshjose.Pectoretalk 02:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Bharatveer

I believe that User:toddst's response results from his non-implementation of a core WP policy of "Assuming good-faith". According to User:Toddst, he started his "actions" after an ANON reported at AIV AIV_editdiff(12:01, 11th November). Please see the article Binayak Sen. Please note that many WP editors (including me) have reported the edits of this particular SPA even before.)see Talk:Binayak Sen & my request for intervention at User:Flewis's talkpage (edit_diff@User_Flewis)(Time 11:48;10th November). Please see my contributions at Binayak Sen. I had tried to clean up that article within WP policies and guideline. I had tried to add more references and I had tried to "balance" the article by "removing" statements from different organisations, which was "irrelevant" to the article. Please see how another uninvolved editor (User:Shovon) also tried to bring admin intervention in the article. User:Toddst instead of seeing all these has in turn accused me of WP:OWN.

Just after this, he made a string of edits ( wikistalking) where he tried to modify/ remove most of my edits in different un-related pages (please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Toddst1).(Articles include Tehelka, where he "moved" my added reference to another section; Hindu Taliban, an afd page initiated by me , where user:Toddst personally attacked me and finally at Chandrayaan.

Please note User:Toddst's remark at AFD page and his conclusion of my edits in Chandrayaan page. It will be very clear that User:Toddst instead of "Assuming good faith" is doing just the reverse. He says "You really seem to be on a roll here. What's up with this edit? It seems like the information you are removing is well sourced, well placed, and on topic. Frankly your action here looks like either vandalism or POV pushing. Stop. Toddst1 (talk) 13:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)" In this case , I had just removed "politics" from a "scientific" article( note that comments from NASA & ESA were not removed). User:toddst needs to explain his edits here as to why he felt my edits were "Vandalism". I would like to conclude my statement this arbcom proceeding need to stopped as it is very clear that there is nothing "substantial" in User:Toddst arguments. Also please note User:Toddst attempts to gather "support" (from admins who had previously blocked me).-Bharatveer (talk) 05:56, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please note User:Toddst's reason for blocking me([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Toddst1&diff=prev&oldid=251093994 edit_diff@todd).-Bharatveer (talk) 06:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Transcribed from User's talk page)

Fellow editors, Please note that User:Toddst's explanation is still pending regarding my "block" . As per the block message , I was accused of "vandalism" charges. I request fellow WP editors to have a re-look at my contributions (mainly Binayak Sen & Chandrayaan.(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Bharatveer). In Binayak Sen article, Please see the "clean-up work" i did (BinayakSen_cleanupVersion). Please see the talkpage,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Binayak_Sen), where i tried with many other WP editors to stop SPA's attempts to push their propaganda. It should also be noted that, I had tried to bring "admin-Intervention" in this article. In this context, User:toddst should explain how these edits will constitute "vandalism". Please note that even regarding 3RR, I had tried to be within limits of this rule, while editing this article. Even if, this charge of 3RR is true, it should be noted that I was the only person who got blocked due to this(which shows the One-sided nature of this block). I have been in WP for at least 2 years now , I am seeing for the first time , an AFD creation and a removal of political statements from a scientific article being labelled as POV charges. It should also be noted that after my previous Arbcom restriction, Many WP Editors have tried to discredit my WP edits pointing out the arbcom restrcition on me. ( for eg. Please see edit_diff@Kerala).-Bharatveer (talk) 06:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Editors like User:Tinu Cherian and others have raised false allegations that all my edits are biased( hindutva??), But I submit that I have tried to edit WP by following all WP policies ( NPOV, WP:cite etc). Please see my contributions at Shehrbano Rehman ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shehrbano_Rehman&action=history); Barkha Dutt([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Barkha_Dutt&action=history);, which would prove otherwise.-Bharatveer (talk) 08:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Otolemur crassicaudatus

Bharatveer (talk · contribs) has a history of chronic POV pushing in India related articles which is primarily characterized by an extreme form of Hindu fundamentalism. I am giving here only a few examples of his disruptive edits:

Bharatveer is a pro-Hindutva POV pusher and is well versed in misinterpretation of various Wikipedia policies to serve his own POV. His contributions are primarily in India and Hindutva related articles, and with POV. He was warned many times, but did not change his behavior. This is the time to take final decision. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 10:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further false accusation by Bharatveer

After my statement above in this case, Bharatveer has falsely accused me of making personal attack against him. I have asked him to point out where is the personal attack. Per WP:NPA, Accusing someone without justification of making personal attacks is also considered a form of personal attack. Bharatveer has already crossed the line and I hope the arbitrators will be able to find a solution to deal with this user. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:14, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tinucherian

I regret to say Bharatveer (talk · contribs) has a long history of POV pushing, edit warring and disruptive editing on Hinduism and Christianity and other religious violence related articles.

With all these disruptive editing , It is clear that Bharatveer is hindrance to very purpose of Wikipedia. He was warned many times, but never did he try change his behavior and be constructive. -- Tinu Cherian - 05:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A RFCU on Bharatveer Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Bharatveer was filed to help arbitation. -- Tinu Cherian - 12:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by googlean

I am too very sorry to comment that Bharatveer has a history of disruptive editing in religious articles, especially POV hands in Hinduism and Christianity related stuffs. I wish to present some evidences below:

  • Later, in this edit, he removed a reliable source of NDTV & pushed pov from an unreliable source.
  • I later moved to RS/N to gather more opinions. However, instead of discussing the issue, Bharathweer started edit-warring with me over that unreliable source in Religious violence in Orissa.

With above interactions with me, I strongly feel that Bharathveer has POV hands in Hindu related articles & on the other hand, well knowledgeable in Wikipedia policies which he misinterprets to support his POV’s. Thanks. --Googlean Results 07:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Relata Refero

If the ArbCom deems it necessary, I can dig up episodes from earlier this calendar year, when User:Bharatveer was on the editing restriction of 1RR/W, and actually made one revert a week to regularly several articles. At the very least, s/he needs to be kept on this editing restriction. --Relata refero (disp.) 14:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

  • Bharatveer's statement transcribed from this version of User:Bharatveer's talk page.--Tznkai (talk) 07:38, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Recuse - I just blocked Googlean, who I hadn't remembered had made a statement in this case, so I am afraid I must recuse myself from any further clerking on this matter.--Tznkai (talk) 03:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Please provide Bharatveer with notice of this request. If he wishes to respond while he is blocked, he can post a statement on his talkpage and a Clerk should copy it to the appropriate section here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you; awaiting statement from Bharatveer and input from other interested editors. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Looking at Bharatveer's recent behavior, this seems to be a pretty obvious case; I've proposed a pair of motions below. Kirill (prof) 01:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like to see a presentation of evidence (and a response from Bharatveer) before voting on any motions. Toddst1, you also seem to have been in a content dispute with Bharatveer when you blocked him ([27]), would you like to explain that? --bainer (talk) 01:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

1) Bharatveer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned from Wikipedia for a period of one year.

There are 10 active Arbitrators, so a majority is 6.

Support:

  1. First choice. Kirill (prof) 01:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. First choice. Last year's editing restrictions did not stop the disruptive editing so this year a different approach is needed. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

Abstain:

1.1) Bharatveer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to a comprehensive editing restriction indefinitely. He is limited to one revert per page per week (excepting obvious vandalism), and is required to discuss any content reversions on the page's talk page. If he exceeds this limit, fails to discuss a content reversion, or makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling in the Bharatveer case.

There are 10 active Arbitrators, so a majority is 6.

Support:

  1. Second choice. Kirill (prof) 01:02, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Second choice. FloNight♥♥♥ 17:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose:

Abstain:


Motion of clarification in the Tobias Conradi case

In that case, the ArbCom took the line that userspace is not to be used to keep "laundry lists of grudges". This was in a remedy, rather than explicitly given as a principle. The general question of what can and cannot be placed in userspace is addressed also by WP:NOT, and in the end comes down to whether given postings help the mission. Combining the explicit principles in that case, with the thought in the remedy, and policy, gives some relevant concepts on the acceptable use of userspace. The following represents our current interpretation.

Certain kinds of uses are impermissible. These include but are not limited to:

  • Lists of grudges, problem users, diffs, just to make a point.
  • In general, there should not be negative postings of the attention-seeking kind.
  • Blogging: userspace is not for general commentary.
  • Pre-emptive developments running ahead of community or ArbCom sanctions

Certain kinds of uses are permissible:

  • Userspace may be used to warehouse diffs, but only when intended as part of drafting for active dispute resolution.
  • Essays are obviously OK (use Category:Wikipedia essays, and {{essay}}, saying this is what they are). By their nature essays deal with “issues, not personalities”. If they ever cross that line, from the general issue to particular and personal allusions, they lose their privileged status.
  • Drafts of political as well as policy pieces are OK, say ahead of elections. It is helpful if they are dated and headed to indicate this.
  • Support for enforcement of existing sanctions, where there is a real and present need to share information.

Comment by Shoemaker's Holiday (talk)

Procedural objection: the case is over a year old, and AGK's proposal could be made policy through the normal procedure of simply editing WP:USER, the official content guideline for such things, or by discussing it on the talk page of same. There is no reason for the Arbcom to get involved, the connection to the case is at best highly tangental, and the Arbcom really shouldn't be in the habit of revisiting old cases simply to make a non-urgent policy rewrite.

Obviously, AGK's good faith is not in question - he was probably simply unaware of WP:USER. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:41, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are misunderstanding what is happening here. AGK reformatted the motion - the motion itself was offered by Charles Matthews. Avruch T 04:39, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, the formatting is unclear, however, this only makes arbcom's rejection in favour of Charles editing WP:USER more important: In the recent RFC on the arbcom, there was a a strong objection to what was seen as Arbcom writing policy. If arbcom decides to actually write policy by fiat, based on revisiting a year-old case, it would cause excessive controversy, all of which could be easily avoided if the Arbcom simply went to WP:USER as respected members of the community and declaring their support for Charles' change. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 09:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Considering that WP:USER already makes clear that content is only permitted with the consent of the community, this seems beside the point. Since the motion was drafted after I consulted on the ArbCom list, I'd be surprised if it didn't represent the "current interpretation", as it says. If I'm wrong about that, well, I'm wrong. It seems clearest to proceed in this way, clarifying first. Maybe there will be commentary that could be illuminating. (The clerk is just doing the clerk's job here, but the system has got Procrustean and templated.) Charles Matthews (talk) 12:01, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Erm, Shoemaker, I do know what WP:USER is. :)
Avruch has succinctly outlined precisely what I'm thinking here: I was clerking this thread, not making a motion. (Incidentally, only an Arbitrator may do that.)
AGK 12:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry, the layout was really unclear as to who made the motion. Your signature was the only one near the motion.
On Charles Matthews' point - I'm really uncomfortable with the increase in arbcom power that this motion would represent - it effectively gives Arbcom the right to make policy simply by finding any past case to which the policy can be connected. Charles Matthews makes excellent suggestions for additions to WP:USER, and they could, in all likelihood, be added there uncontroversially by Charles as an editor. But an arbcom declaration in the same line puts any future decisions on the matter outside of the community's decision. It would mean that User page policy would, from then onwards, only be changeable by appeal to Arbcom.
The basic problem is that, as there is no evidence that the community is unable to handle user page policy, nor that community-based means for implementing this have even been tried, going for the "nuclear option" of Arbcom-declared policy as the first option seems, at the very least, to set a bad precedent; and, at the worst, could cause unnecessary controversy and drama. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I can't agree to that. WP:USER is a content guideline, but it clearly needs to be read in the light of other policies, such as WP:NOT and WP:HARASS. Content guidelines aren't free-standing entities in their own little world. I'm sure that is common ground. There are some nuances involved, as the draft makes clear. There should be no need for another Arbitration case to deal with grudge-bearing on the site: once is enough. This is a motion to clarify, and if the same material had been appended in Tobias Conradi as commentary, or had been prompted by a request, I doubt we'd be discussing it in this fashion. At this level of detail, it isn't evident there is a need to write all this into WP:USER, but spelling out some of the considerations a year on makes sense to me. At the very least, some people aren't too aware of the "case law" on this matter. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Seddon (talk)

I would like to bring up some issues here. I have no intention of blowing this out of proportions but I had some concerns when reading this request for clarification.

  • Could you provide any recent evidence that the community has had issues with these types of pages?
  • If so, what evidence is there that the community has sought other venues to try and deal with these problems?
  • Has it got to the point where the community is unable to decide for itself?
  • If none of these happened why was this request simply not taken to the talk page of WP:USER?
  • Given that this is a guideline, it is not enforceable, and if, via this clarification it is being made enforceable doesnt it make it policy?
  • I was under the impression that ARBCOM avoided editting or creating policy?

I would be very glad if all of these questions could cleared up for me.

Seddσn talk Editor Review 00:14, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Ncmvocalist (talk)

Had this been an ordinary request for clarification, I don't think there'd have been a problem here. Turning it into a motion that's explicitly stuck back into the main case page is one though - I'm surprised that the 3 of you have abstained to reduce the majority, rather than procedurally opposed given the legitimate concerns here. This motion gives all appearances that ArbCom are becoming legislative.

That said, I don't think anyone strongly disagrees with the proposals itself; rather, it's the manner in which its done. Why the reluctance to put it into policy? Its inclusion doesn't need to be limited to any one content guideline/policy (such as USER); the relevant parts can be put into relevant guidelines/policies (whether its HARASS or NOT or whatever else). WP:NLT was amended just before the Haines case closed so I don't see why this should be any different just because it would involve more than one page. Additionally, the proposals aren't remarkably 'new' - the community have come across these particular scenarios in the recent past and used common sense along with policy, rather than relying on any cases. So amending "case law" as opposed to "legislation" is questionable & unnecessary as far as this issue is concerned - I don't think we have, or ever will look to "case law" to handle what is specified in these proposals.

This should not be a motion to amend a previous case. If the Committee wants to give guidance (on request), it shouldn't be any more than a request for clarification that gets archived on the talk page of the case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by User:Barberio

The Arbcom are entitled to vote for this resolution if they want to.

They may also vote on a resolution of if the moon is made of cheese.

Neither of the votes can have any effect.

The Arbitration Policy is clear on this, ArbCom have no ability to create new policy by fiat, no matter if they can tangentially link it to a case.

Charles, I think this borders on an abuse of your station as Arbitrator to push for policy changes you want, and you should probably withdraw it and use the normal process of changing policy by consensus. What you ask for isn't greatly objectionable, but this is not the way to do it.--Barberio (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Background note from Avruch

A recent case where the motion offered would have an impact can be found here. I'm sure that Charles Matthews left it out because the principle has wider application and might not fit perfectly with this particular incident. Avruch T 03:51, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A small point from Fut.Perf.

I stumble over this: "Lists of grudges, problem users, diffs, just to make a point." (my emphasis).

There's a bizarre tendency in Wikipedia-internal jargon, inspired no doubt by that infamous essay, to treat the expression "to make a point" as if it denoted something bad. Worse, it appears that many people use the phrase "you are just making a point!" to mean: "you are saying something I don't like". Let me point out that to make points is the whole point of – well, of what? Language. Communicating. Why on earth would anybody ever write down anything if not in order to get his point across? My point being, please point out more precisely what you mean at that point. Thank you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usually as in "We know where you live". People don't say that to start a conversation. What is another concise way to explain why they say that? Charles Matthews (talk) 19:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to get your point. Are you seriously comparing the collection of wikipedia complaints to a veiled threat of physical violence? (That, incidentally, is a "concise way to explain why they say that" other phrase). – But anyway, on further consideration, I think I agree with Shoemaker's Holiday. There is no indication the community isn't able to decide on its own what the legitimate limits of userspace writing are. As long as the community is not in an intractable, serious and divisive impasse about how to handle this issue, you guys have no business deciding what the policy should be. – By the way, "Pre-emptive developments running ahead of community or ArbCom sanctions" is another one that goes beyond my semantic guessing capacities. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A small point from Jehochman

The second motion specifies what can be kept for the purpose of "dispute resolution". What about keeping lists of diffs or notes about other editors (possibly of a derogatory nature) for elections, such as WP:ACE2008, WP:RFB and WP:RFA? I think it would be good for clarity to explicitly add or exclude such uses. Jehochman Talk 05:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

  • Voting section below put into the usual format for these motions. AGK 21:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • There are two issues here. The general principle that user space is for matters that benefit the project, and remains communally owned and subject to community feelings. If used to hold contentious "blame lists" these need to be well justified in line with the traditional principle that once something's over, it's history. If there is contentious problematic material then ultimately it is a wiki page, not MySpace. This is a principle covered in Wikipedia:User pages, and which we referred to and affirmed in our decision "RFAR/Tobias Conradi". But that was all we did. We did not create policy, not change it, we affirmed what was already well established as being written within existing norms.

    Administrators may need assurance that they will not be treated as misusing administrative tools, if they were stricter on deleting or blanking such content that appears to be problematic in user space. That's fair to raise, since ultimately if there were a question, we would be asked to rule on it. I'd feel comfortable saying how I see the aim of that guideline, and how I'd handle such content, and to give assurance/guidance that some kinds of action will not usually be seen as a problem by us, as measured against norms of the community. Those are well within our usual remit. I would not however require Arbcom to write policy or guidelines in doing so. FT2 (Talk | email) 07:08, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Motion

{Here should be placed the precise text of the motion—that is, what decision is to be passed, and what current case decision it should supersede. Or, alternatively, here should be placed the text of the "official statement" supporting the decision. Clerk assistance available upon a shout! AGK 21:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)}[reply]

There are 10 active Arbitrators, so a majority is 6.
  • Support:
  1. Support Charles Matthews (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2008 (UTC) (proposing)[reply]
    Comment: the proposal below to move them into a case that will soon be voting is not anything I have a big problem with. They've been looked at here, and if they are in some way "folded" as comment into a case, that will serve. The content itself seems not to be so contentious for the ArbCom, so the draft has done its work. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Per FloNight's vote: OK then, this turns into an annexe of a Workshop for something. Others please edit as necessary. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Clear enough, and will help deal with the issue we've had in which people cite the case as an exclusive, rather than inclusive, list. James F. (talk) 19:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose:
  1. This issue comes up regularly and there is confusion about it so interpretation of the issue by ArbCom will be beneficial. But I also prefer including this in an active case for the reasons stated by Newyorkbrad. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. We'll handle this in Kuban Kazak-Hillock65. Kirill (prof) 21:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. In favor of #2 that is more solidly grounded. FT2 (Talk | email) 07:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  4. The motion has been blanked. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abstain:
  1. Although I am in general agreement with Charles Matthews' proposals, and I do not believe any great harm would come of our adopting them in the fashion proposed here, there appears to be some objection that the action proposed would be somewhat legislative in character, i.e., the Arbitration Committee creating or revising policy outside the scope of a pending dispute. Working for the adoption of these ideas either through editing of WP:USER or by proposing them as principles in the pending Piotrus 2 and Kuban Kazak cases, both of which involve disputes over the use of userspace, may provide a more readily accepted vehicle for addressing the issues presented. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:11, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Per NYB. This is really guidance rather than an actionable provision, but there are better venues available for putting this forward. Kirill (prof) 01:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I also agree with Brad. --bainer (talk) 01:18, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Alternate motion

2) The Committee affirms and clarifies the principle that was stated as a remedy in the Tobias Conradi case:

  1. User space is communally owned. It is generally left to the eponymous user to manage, for the benefit of the project, but within agreed communal guidelines. (The guideline Wikipedia:User page applies.)
  2. While users have wide discretion to use that space as they see fit, it is the Committee's understanding of present communal "best practice" and consensus, that lists of fault-finding diffs, users described as "problem users", negative postings, and other matters of a generally uncollegial kind, should be written only if needed, kept only for a limited period, and only for imminent use in dispute resolution or other reasonable and short term dispute handling. They should not be allowed - deliberately, through passage of time, good faith, wilful allusion, or neglect - to create some kind of perennial "hall of shame" or list of "disapproved, shunned or negatively viewed users".
  3. The Committee also notes that the community has long held that user space is not to be excessively used for blogging, promotion (including unreasonable self-promotion), and various other purposes.
  4. Users are encouraged to avoid keeping such content on the wiki when there is no good cause. Uninvolved users and administrators are encouraged to be willing to check whether such pages may be removed, if they appear to be dormant, redundant, or not presently "live".
  5. The Arbitration Committee affirms that it will not usually consider users who blank or (if necessary) delete such matters in user space, to have abused their editing or administrative access, provided:- the content was broadly of the types above, the deletion or blanking was in good faith, discussed (if possibly "live"), reasonably handled, not excessive, and the matter handled courteously and reasonably, with administrative deletion avoided unless either egregious or historic revisions are being persistently linked (on or off wiki).
  6. As with other deleted content, provision of the content of such deleted pages to the userspace "owner" is at administrator discretion, if reasonably useful for future Wikipedia community purposes, and the user has good reason and appears to be requesting it for good faith purposes. Administrators should be aware that pages of this kind may contain egregiously (unhelpfully) disruptive, defamatory and/or privacy breaching material, and should redact these from any text forwarded, if they decide to do so.
Nothing written above is intended to discourage recording support and evidence concerning enforcement of an existing sanction, where there is a real and foreseeable project benefit to sharing information. However such matters should ideally be on a case page rather than userspace, where one exists.


  • Support:
  1. FT2 (Talk | email) 07:40, 16 November 2008 (UTC) I think this is how it should be said. #5 could be redundant or useful, I can't quite decide.[reply]
  2. Support as an analysis of policy and guidance to users as to how the committee is likely to view their questionable user sub-pages. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Fine, although this could be condensed somewhat. Kirill (prof) 17:24, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose:
  • Abstain:
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