Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Use of classified documents

This RFC is to answer the question "Under what, if any, circumstances may leaked classified documents be used as (a) sources and (b) external links?". Previous discussion includes Wikipedia:ELN#Propriety of linking to WikiLeaks 'released' documents and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#On linking to classified documents. The context for this discussion is the WikiLeaks publication of leaked US cables, but need not be limited to that. Classified material has been referred to within Wikipedia before; we have articles on the Pentagon Papers, on nuclear weapon design, most recently on the Afghan War Diaries; and in the previous articles made on Wikileaks releases, such as the Afghan War Diaries and the Iraq War Documents, the primary source to Wikileaks is included. Despite this, the issue of using the recent cables has sparked enough contention across enough pages to suggest an RFC may be helpful. Rd232 ^talk 08:54, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Links to other discussions

• (November 2007) Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 3#leaked documents?
• (October 2009) Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 45#Wikileaks
• (July 2010) Talk:Afghan War documents leak#Remove easy access to the papers from wikipedia
• (July 2010) Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard/Archive 3#Dispute as to linking to declassified material
• {July 2010) Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 78#publishing or linking to "classified" material
• (November/December 2010) Wikipedia:External links/Noticeboard#Propriety of linking to WikiLeaks 'released' documents
• (December 2010) User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 69#List of US vital sites
• (December 2010) s:Wikisource:Scriptorium#Wikileaks collection of cables
• (December 2010) Talk:United States diplomatic cables leak/Archive 2#List of vital sites
• (December 2010) Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 83#Is Business Insider reliable?
• (December 2010) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive656#Creation of articles from leaked classified documents
• (December 2010) Talk:Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative#Unjustifiable opposition
• (December 2010) Talk:United States diplomatic cables leak/Archive 2#Primary Sources vs Secondary Sources
• (December 2010) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive220#On linking to classified documents

Title 18, Chapter 37, Section 798 U.S. Code

FWIW: § 798. Disclosure of classified information --Mike Cline (talk) 09:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Position of Wnt

• According to the ACLU, "The courts have made clear that the First Amendment protects independent third parties who publish classified information."^[1] This has long been true in situations such as the publication of the Pentagon Papers and the outing of Valerie Plame.

• Given that it is legal to host the material, we should not have any doubt about linking to some of the best newspapers in the world, like The Guardian, which republish classified cables from Wikileaks. While Wikileaks is a newer, embattled source, it is publishing the same kind of material, so we should have no more qualms about linking to it. (General note: Wikipedia and Wikileaks both run on the free wiki software but are otherwise unrelated)

• It may be safest for Wikimedia projects not to solicit the leaking of classified material by a military source, and may be against current policy to accept any direct leak of classified information from a military source. According to recent press reports,[2] attempts to prosecute Julian Assange may depend on whether he became somehow complicit with the original leaker (widely speculated to be Bradley Manning). WP:CENSOR says that "Content that is judged to violate ... the laws of the U.S. state of Florida where Wikipedia's servers are hosted, will also be removed." Ordinarily Wikimedia accepts material which may be illegal from a (foreign) uploader's end but is legal from Wikimedia's point of view, but in the case of U.S. classified material the case might be complicated. In any case, Wikipedia has no special competence to evaluate whether a direct leak is accurate or not, and any attempt to do so could only be WP:original research. WP:V indicates that if we receive a secret document, even if it comes from North Korea, we can't do anything with it unless an ordinary user can find it on a website or in a library book or the like. This suggests that there is a clear separation of the role of Wikileaks in directly leaking information from Wikipedia's role in citing and summarizing the documents so publicized for encyclopedic purposes.

• A leaked classified document is not automatically a reliable source - it could be a forgery, or it could be the work of one ignorant official. However, as explained in the previous point, we should expect to learn that something is a leaked classified document via some other external source, which can then be used to support its authenticity. In the case of Wikileaks the documents have been very widely publicized and accepted as reliable by literally hundreds of newspapers, and Wikileaks itself likewise possesses a very good reputation for checking the validity of the leaked documents. This makes Wikileaks a reliable source to prove that a document is genuine. Depending on the authorship of a classified document and the content it quotes from other sources, it may be a questionable, self-published, primary, or secondary source; but in every case, if genuine, it is a source about itself and any activity it was created as a part of.

• In the event that leaked classified documents have reached world news items and helped to shape historical events, WP:RS requires their citation as part of a well balanced article: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in reliable, published sources are covered" The point of view of the people who created the document with the perception of secrecy will be unique and informative.

• Claims of copyright over classified documents have been conspicuously absent from recent news coverage of Wikileaks. Such documents are typically prepared by U.S. government employees with a preset date at which they are to become unclassified and generally available. There's no obvious reason why they couldn't contain copyrighted material in specific instances, but even then, Fair Use issues would be significant.

• I rebutted User:Elonka/Work1 (similar to [3]) at User:Wnt/Work1, and have had some debate with her at my talk page, addressing some other issues such as ad hominem concerns.

• The most credible claim against Wikipedia's use of the documents is that the U.S. security clearance process might discriminate against people who work with or even read the material. But the process might also discriminate against people who upload photographs of themselves at a gay pride parade or express admiration for Fidel Castro. Also note that P.J. Crowley dismissed such an e-mailed warning as "an overly-zealous employee", saying it "does not represent a formal policy position".^[4]

• Regarding ethical concerns, it is very easy for people to put up bugaboos about how citing or quoting or referring to leaked classified material is supposed to endanger lives. But it's not reasonable. The people who are most motivated to do something harmful with the information are not waiting for it to trickle down to Wikipedia. I strongly doubt they even had to wait for Wikisource. The sad truth is, the U.S. kept documents "secret" by putting them on SIPRNet, available to 500,000 people. A person like Bradley Manning, reprimanded, facing dismissal, was allowed to download them ad libitum. I bet that international spies were able to get to them faster. In my opinion, Wikipedia's role in bringing such information down to the level of voters and schoolchildren helps to put pressure on the U.S. to actually secure such information, not pretend to secure it, and to protect informants, not to pretend no one found out who they are. The security model favored by those opposing any mention of leaked classified documents is one in which the global Herrenvolk - the 500,000 SIPRNet users, foreign intelligence services, al-Qaida, and well connected officials - share access to a vast realm of information, but where the ordinary proles of any country are denied any right to learn about it. That is an intellectual caste system which is starkly and diametrically opposite to everything that Wikimedia stands for. Wnt (talk) 17:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Anomie⚔ 19:05, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
2. Silverseren^C 19:16, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
3. 213.84.53.62 (talk) 19:35, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
4. Cyclopia^talk 20:13, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
5. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
6.   Cs32en Talk to me  23:45, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
7. ThemFromSpace 05:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
8. -- Cirt (talk) 16:21, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
9. DGG ( talk ) 17:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
10. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 20:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC) (having considered the clear and concise position that Wnt provided below in response to Llywrch's request for a summary.)
11. Falcorian ^(talk) 22:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
12. Count Iblis (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
13. --Cerebellum (talk) 01:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
14. Well reasoned, if a bit longish. ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:35, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
15. Absolutely true Ronk01 talk 03:25, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
16. Astronomyinertia (talk) 17:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

Wnt's view sounds just fine. The political class needs to get used to the brave new world, and censoring sources just because they are embarrassing is not acceptable. However, we can only write about what has been covered by reliable third-party sources, and even then, not everything is important enough to be mentioned. The Wikileaks documents are primary sources, which should be used with a great deal of restraint. We need to attend to the pitfalls of giving undue weight. Tony (talk) 09:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

It is proper. The only thing to consider here are the legal aspects, and the pentagon paper precedents made it clear that it is perfectly legal to publish, republish, and relate the content of leaked classified material. We have no problems using the classified information of non-US countries, and we should as little qualms with using US-classified information. Even assuming the "ticking time bomb" scenario, the wikileaks et al. sources are so widely available that this material is hardly secret anymore. So yeah, it's proper / support / Wikipedia is not censored / whatever. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 10:14, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• I, for one, don't know exactly what Wnt's position is. Could Wnt summarize it in a sentence or two? -- llywrch (talk) 20:03, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia should feel free to cite or quote classified material if and only if it has been published somewhere else (such as Wikileaks). A piece of classified material may be a secondary source, or a reliable primary source, or a questionable source, or a self-published source - no general rule is possible; a case by case examination is required. In any case I highly value quality primary sources. Wnt (talk) 03:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• I must take issue with your last point. "In my opinion, Wikipedia's role in bringing such information down to the level of voters and schoolchildren helps to put pressure on the U.S. to actually secure such information, not pretend to secure it, and to protect informants, not to pretend no one found out who they are." This is not and should never be a goal of Wikipedia, to put pressure on or effect change within a government. I agree that SIPRNet may represent a system antithetical to the purposes of Wikipedia in terms of public access to information. However, we also attempt to present such information without bias. If leaked classified information is presented to effect any kind change within any institution, then it's certainly not being presented in a neutral fashion (or at least not for neutral purposes). I hope that I didn't misunderstand your comment, but if I haven't then it's implications fall far outside the bounds of neutrality. DKqwerty (talk) 05:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Your comment is true if we accept that the ethics concerns raised by some opposed to using the documents are irrelevant to Wikipedia. However, if we allow ethics to become an issue, then we must think through that issue and recognize that freedom of inquiry is in fact the most ethical policy. Wnt (talk) 14:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

DKqwerty's comment poses two errors in logic,I think. One is to equate "helps to put pressure" with "a goal". I might unintentionally help to put pressure on my City to reduce their education budget by providing e-books to all students; that doesn't mean I had a specific goal of reducing their budget. The second and more glaring, I think, is the assumption that information presented in a neutral fashion with neutral purpose can not effect any kind of change within any institution. Classified maps of the moon and planets,with new and surprising details, might be neutrally presented with a neutral purpose to a University, e.g. emailing it to the President of the University, fully knowing that it would effect changes to a large array of course content. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 23:35, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

More Classified than Unclassified

Perhaps this Harvard Univ. source could be useful to provide some context for making any decisions related to classified documents.

• "as many as a trillion pages are classified (200 Libraries of Congress)."

Peter Louis Galison, a historian and Director[5] in the Science Dept. at Harvard University, published research [6] showing that the U.S. Government now produces more classified information than unclassified information and that; "In fact, the classified universe, as it is sometimes called, is certainly not smaller and very probably is much larger than the unclassified one.[7] page 1.and that:

• "..about five times as many pages are being added to the classified universe than are being brought to the storehouses of human learning, including all the books and journals on any subject in any language collected in the largest repositories on the planet."[8] page 2

Peter Galison is the Mallinckrodt Professor of the History of Science and Physics at Harvard University. He was appointed a Guggenheim Fellow in 2009,His main work explores the interaction among the principal subcultures of physics: How Experiments End (1987), Image and Logic(1997), and Einstein’s Clocks, Poincare´’s Maps (2003). Several projects explore crosscurrents between science and other fields, including his coedited volumes.Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 13:53, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Galison's research,which I see as purely academic and objective, influenced my position. His words: "Bottom line? Whether one figures by acquisition rate, by holding size, or by contributors, the classified universe is, as best I can estimate, on the order of five to ten times larger than the open literature that finds its way to our libraries.The closed (classified) world is not a small strongbox in the corner of our collective house of codified and stored knowledge. It is we in the openworld—we who study the world lodged in our libraries, from aardvarks to zymurgy, we who are living in a modest information booth facing outwards, our unseeing backs to a vast and classified empire we barely know...In the end, however, the broadest problem is that, if pressed too hard and too deeply, secrecy...is a threat to democracy."

Therefore, being a lover of knowledge and democracy, my position is that in order to expand the limits of the general public's access to knowledge and in order to protect,preserve and create democracies, leaked classified documents should be used as sources and external links without discrimination as to their having been "classified" by someone. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 20:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. -- Cirt (talk) 16:22, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
2. NeonMerlin 19:09, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

Position of ErrantX

I have a number of views on this matter.

• The issue of legality is one naturally brought up. As Wnt details above I am convinced it is not something we need to be concerned about. Even if it were, no one here is sufficiently qualified to make an absolute judgement on the matter; this is why the WMF exists. We can safely work under the assumption that anything "borderline" will be noticed, considered and commented on by the foundation - and that in lieu of such comments we can assume they have no qualms about our actions. Of course, if editors are still concerned it seems reasonable to explicitly raise it with the foundation.
• The next issue is one of reliability. In this respect I would not class Wikileaks as a de facto reliable or unreliable source. It is certainly something to judge on a case by case basis. For example; sourcing an article (or a section) purely to a cable with no secondary sourcing is unacceptable. Similarly assuming that just because one of the news outlets has picked up the cables content does not mean it is definitely truth. We should take care to establish (to take some examples) cables that have been verified by secondary sources using some other medium, are reasonably likely to be true or which contain dubious information unable to be verified. We should treat each cable with the relative weight of their reliability, context, contents and verifiability. Where a cable is reasonably likely to contain accurate information and a secondary source has taken the same stance then I think we can safely make use of it as a reliable source.
• WP:PRIMARY is being cited a lot as reason to preclude the use of these cables as a source. However there seems a critical misunderstanding over the use of primary sources (for example; Elonka claimed a number of times that primary sources may not be used). The truth is that reliable primary sources are 100% fine; they should, of course, be used for neutral factual information (i.e. nothing interpretive) and with care. Additionally; the primary source issue is one to discuss on a case by case basis.
• From the ethical perspective; there is very little we can do to protect anyone damaged by these cables. Indeed, there is no clear evidence that such danger is present. I am going to guess here, but a huge amount of information is added to the wiki every day - some of that will be damaging in ways even good faith editors would ever imagine. There is no plausible way we can assess the uncertain damage any information can have. We have WP:BLP and WP:FRINGE policies to help keep obviously or overtly damaging information from the site; and those policies will similarly apply to any information in the cables. No extra measures seem needed.

As some final point, I think that:

1. We should gently discourage use of these documents and their related media within articles due to the problems of WP:RECENTISM and undue weight. The media are picking very insignificant details from the documents and making meals out of them, we should exercise caution in the use of more trivial material, at the very least until some time has passed.
2. Just because a secondary source has picked up a cable does not verify the content of the cable. And we should always bear that in mind when using them.

Hopefully that addresses most of the concerns :) --Errant ^(chat!) 14:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Endorse Rd232 ^talk 14:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
2. Regarding WP:PRIMARY, I wish we could just kick that whole section out into an essay so people stop misusing it as policy. It is quite true that we cannot make any analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims that are not already present in the primary source (modulo the type of issues raised in WP:NOTOR, anyway). But the same is true of secondary and tertiary sources, the only difference is that a secondary or tertiary source is more likely to already contain useful analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. And the issue is further muddied by the fact that the same source can be considered 'secondary' for a statement "X is true" and 'primary' for a statement "source says X is true". Anomie⚔ 19:47, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

   I strongly second this comment. I feel that primary sources have been widely persecuted, not just in this case. I think that it is common and appropriate to consult Wikipedia as a search engine, in which your goal is not to read a well-written article but merely to dive through it directly to the original source for a news story or experiment. Such abuse of WP:PRIMARY greatly hinders this use. Wnt (talk) 04:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

3. ErrantX has expressed my opinion very clearly, & I commend her/him for it. Leaked classified (or other secret government) documents should be treated no differently from other primary sources -- unless the Foundation has ordered us not to use it. About the only policy ErrantX didn't allude to -- & should be included only for completeness' sake -- is Wikipedia:Verifiability. Just because I (for example) have a leaked government document which no one else has reasonable access to, does not give me special rights to use it as a source. Even if I'm willing to share copies to one & all. -- llywrch (talk) 20:00, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
4. I lean to this position. If it looks like other organizations are getting in trouble because of this sort of thing (other than Wikileaks, and anyone else who initially publishes classified documents), then we need to ask for a ruling from the WMF. Until that point, this position seems to be the way to go. Wabbott9 (talk) 23:21, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
5. per my comments below --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 03:19, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
6. I generally agree with this position, with the caveat that "Recentism" is often alleged where it is absent and ignored when it is present. Proper bias against "recentism" means that you don't update a 2006 world map of fatalities from a disease with data from news stories about five countries in 2010 - you want one snapshot from one single moment in time, even if it is older. Improper bias against "recentism" occurs when people start claiming that you shouldn't document world news headlines when they happen, even though that is the time when you can get the most detailed information the most easily. In general, news reports don't get any smarter more than a day or two after something makes headlines, and in practice, it is far easier to sit on an online news search sorted by date and add new references as they appear than to deal with the mishmash you get once you're doing a web or archive search. Wnt (talk) 04:43, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
7. ThemFromSpace 05:39, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
8. -- Cirt (talk) 16:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
9. Enric Naval (talk) 07:25, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
10. --GRuban (talk) 14:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
11. --Cerebellum (talk) 01:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

@Anomie; absolutely agree, indeed you hit the nail squarely on the head :) particularly with the last sentence. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:56, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

• If a good secondary source has published a cable, it does verify the text of the cable to the same extent as any other document it publishes. (that, it, that is is authentic--not that what is asserted in it is true) DGG ( talk ) 17:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Position of Ohconfucius

There has been much interesting and juicy stuff hitting the headlines, but most of the cache of unreleased material may never see the light of day, as it's just plain uninteresting/un-newsworthy. That does not imply that all that has been released is notable or has a place in WP.

I would add firstly that the information, like the proverbial genie, cannot be stuffed back into the bottle; multiple RS have published on different cables, so I have no problem with copyright. Secondly, I consider that ethical issues are not relevant to us here, for it is WL that released, and one media station per country has done the spreading. Thirdly, as to authenticity, I am happy to say 'The Guardian reports the cable saying [the Sizewell B nuclear power plant] is considered a terrorist target'. Proper attribution is the key here.

Our remit is to write about what's already out there, without doing so in a 'newsy' manner, provided each element is notable, in a manner which reflects each item's relative importance. The leaked information must almost certainly not be collected in an anally-retentive manner, dumped wholescale on Wikipedia. I see particularly Silver seren scouring articles in all languages ostensibly to source minor points about threats to 'Manganese' or 'Magellan Straits'; there is still a real problem with the lack of more than one source in many such cases on that laundry list. I feel strongly that WP should not be used as a dumping ground for the untold thousands of documents released (and to be released) by WikiLeaks, or indeed any other party. That which is included should also conform to WP:SUMMARY - for example, instead of listing each mine/mineral being a potential target in a given country, we should properly summarise (probably in prose) that '[bauxite, manganese, and uranium] mining facilities are listed in the cables as being potential threats' --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:56, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Viriditas (talk) 04:05, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
2. Secondary sources, not primary sources, establish due weight. --JN466 02:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

There's a general fallacy that has cropped up here: "dumping ground for the untold thousands of documents..." I didn't start a thousand articles, but one (maybe two if you count my Thyrosafe stub, though I think the cable there is more incidental - I just wanted to jot down a few notes about what it was). The primary filter Wikipedia uses to keep out boring or overwhelming coverage is that an editor has to care about a topic enough to start an article. By analogy consider that Commons is sitting on 250,000 geographic distributions for the IUCN Red List, which they have been desperately trying to get someone to care enough about to draw up new maps with notes on the front page. In theory someone could start 250,000 Wikipedia articles about the geographic distributions of species (and nothing else about them). But in practice it doesn't happen. It's not a reason to ban people from having an IUCN map in an article about an endangered species. Wnt (talk) 04:05, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Your creation of the Thyrosafe stub is a great example of the problematic editing at work here. You created this stub because it was mentioned in a WikiLeaks cable. However, none of the sources you've added to the stub demonstrate notability, and out of the six citations you added, only one is reliable, and that happens to be a link to the manufacturer web site, which is a primary source; This is not how we create articles. You know this, and you've been here since December 2007, which is long enough to know how things work. So tell me, why do you keep creating articles based on primary sources that lack notability? Viriditas (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You should choose your examples better. Thyrosafe is referenced in multiple books, so it is definitely notable per WP:GNG. --Cyclopia^talk 02:27, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You should learn how to write articles using reliable sources. Giving me a link to Google books does not solve the problem. Again, we see Wnt creating articles based on WikiLeaks cables and citing primary and unreliable sources to justify article creation. The user has been on Wikipedia since 2007, so this kind of poor editing can't be justified. The article is still not supported by RS. As I said previously on AN/I, users like Wnt are gaming the sourcing policies to create new articles based solely on WikiLeaks cables. Viriditas (talk) 03:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm kinda in agreement here; although without the vitriol of Viriditas. A little searching shows that the drug is unlikely to be individually notable - at least in reliable secondary sources. This is the sort of "creep" to take care of; stuff identified in the cables may be notable, but we should take care to make sure they really are. In this case I cleaned the article up a bit but it may need to be merged somewhere. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I think Thyrosafe is quite notable. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 18:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

With all due respect, we judge notability by the sources, not by what we think. Which reliable secondary sources about the subject justify the creation of an encyclopedic article about Thyrosafe? That's what we need before we create articles on Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 21:23, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

not really the place, but given wnt's reluctance over this article I feel happy to redirect it to the "mother" article with a short line added to it. I tried for a decent time to find sources to establish some form of notability but I simply couldn't manage it :) --Errant ^(chat!) 21:41, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with the redirection but I'm not going to spend more time fighting over it. Fortunately proprietary services such as Google don't spend their time deleting details, so one hopes that people will be able to get to the bottom of the matter by turning to copyrighted sources, at least for a time. Wnt (talk) 03:19, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

User:Silver seren restored the article,[9] so you don't have to worry about "fighting over it". Also note that the secondary sources she added are about anti-radiation pills in general, with passing mention of Thyrosafe. It's obvious now that the reason all of these non-notable articles like Thyrosafe are being created is to justify keeping the article on Critical Foreign Dependencies Initiative. This pretty much confirms my original concerns that I voiced on the AN/I: there appears to be a coordinated effort to create articles based solely on the WikiLeaks cables, regardless of whether they are notable or not. The pattern is very clear. Whenever an editor steps forward to discuss this, they are immediately accused of "censorship" and their edits are reverted by a member of the group in a highly coordinated manner. We've seen this kind of editing before on many different topics, and this always ends up on arbcom. See you there. Viriditas (talk) 06:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I have not created any new articles, and I am sure you likely have an argument in terms of notability, but I do not assume that there are any secondary reasons for any article creations. There is, apparantly, now more classified information being produced in the world than unclassified, so I think its important to create new articles whenever we can justify it, simply to expand the body of knowledge available to our Readers (the public,voters,masses) and the release of these cables provides a big stream to sift for little bits of gold. I doubt as many as 1 out of 1000 of the cables will result in an article, but that's still 1 more available to our Readers; which is a good thing I think. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:37, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

You are preaching to the choir. My contribution history shows my interest in openness and transparency, and I am highly supportive of the kind of "scientific journalism" espoused by Assange. However, Wikipedia policies and guidelines on article creation and maintenance are being challenged, and there is good evidence of a coordinated but leaderless resistance advocacy campaign in progress. Viriditas (talk) 00:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

ok. Thanks for the heads-up. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 23:16, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

View of Rd232

Agreeing with ErrantX, I'd add that (i) because of the way the cables have been published, with involvement of major newspapers, we can accept that the published cables accurately represent the documents produced by and for the US government; so they are acceptable primary sources. (ii) but it remains the case that they are documents produced by and for the US government in a particular context of diplomatic communication, and are not reliable for statements of fact; they are essentially statements of opinion. So we can certainly use them as appropriate to say "cable says X" (Source: cable as published by Wikileaks), and especially "it was reported that cable says X" (Source: newspapers; cable as published by Wikileaks), but not "X" (Source: cable as published by Wikileaks). Rd232 ^talk 14:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Silverseren^C 19:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
2. --Cybercobra (talk) 19:25, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
3. 213.84.53.62 (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
4. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 23:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
5.   Cs32en Talk to me  23:44, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
6. --Cyclopia^talk 00:37, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
7. -- Cirt (talk) 16:27, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
8. DGG ( talk ) 17:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
9. Agree, altough noting that secondary sources can make further interpretations of the content of the cables, and check them against other information. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
10. --GRuban (talk) 14:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
11. Endorse with common sense exceptions to the assumption that all cables must be represented as a point of view. Some details, even controversial ones, may need not be differentiated from authoritative fact and should be handled on a case-by-case basis.   — C M B J   01:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
12. Astronomyinertia (talk) 17:25, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

• I completely agree with this. This is how sources should be used across all of Wikipedia in terms of information or articles that are based on a statement of opinion. That doesn't mean we should not be using such sources, it just means that we have to make sure they are being used correctly. Silverseren^C 19:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
• I disagree that the cables are necessarily statements of opinion - specifically, the CFDI list is not an opinion, but a copy of a list defined by the government. The Wikileaks cable, once declared authentic by secondary sources, states as a matter of fact, not opinion, that features are on the list. This is clearly even more important with other types of classified information - for example, if an experiment measuring properties of nuclear isotopes were leaked. Wnt (talk) 04:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
• The premise is obviously false, I think . The important stuff, and there are lots of it, are not opinion at all, e.g. "The US and Nato have drawn up plans to defend Nato's Baltic members against Russia, latest US diplomatic cables disclosed by Wikileaks show."[10] Its real important not to "otherize",generalize or slap a collective label on the information because of its WikiLeaks connection. I agree there is a lot of opinion within the dump, and that should be treated as Rd232 suggests. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:11, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, yes, perhaps I erred on the side of brevity and/or haste. What I meant was (what I listed as point ii above) that the cables largely represent US diplomats' views of Facts Out There in the local country (what I meant by "fact" above), and are therefore opinionated secondary sources for those facts, whilst being primary sources for what US diplomats wanted to tell Washington. However, in some cases (point i above), where they're discussing US diplomatic issues, they're more straightforwardly primary sources on what US diplomats have been up to. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm contradicting myself, because I'm not. Rd232 ^talk 16:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
    • It took me 2 days, but I see what you mean(but,wow, that's esoteric(and I like esoteric)). Indeed, you are not contradicting yourself. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 14:45, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
• Rd232 points out one of the problems with working from collections of official records, even ones intended to be kept secret: there is an awful lot of chaff amongst the wheat, & in many cases it takes an expert to identify just which is which. For example, working through the reports of the Soviet embassy in Ethiopia (which are available online), I gave up after a while because most of them are either notes along the lines of "we had a meeting with X, & expressed our views on this matter" type; in other cases, I have found official records to be little more than a garbled retelling of rumors the official has heard. On the other hand, an expert may identify significant phrases or names of individuals in otherwise unremarkable -- if not boring -- documents which make them highly important. In summary, whenever one is faced with the need to plumb through the dark woods of published official documents, find yourself a Virgil in a secondary source to help you to reach the golden gates of a happy destination. -- llywrch (talk) 17:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

View of Resident Anthropologist

As external links

It seem to me there is pretty simple solution, The cables really only need to be have external linked on the pages, United States diplomatic cables leak and Contents of the United States diplomatic cables leak, Afghan War Diaries, and the Iraq War documents leak, or any simliar such pages about the leaks in accordance WP:ELOFFICIAL. Having them on any other pages would likely violate run risks of violating WP:ELPOV and WP:ELBLP. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

Discussion of this position

I can agree with this position. Though I do feel that it is almost a necessity to have them be external links, in order to benefit our readers and direct them to that which the article is based on. Silverseren^C 19:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I dont have a problem with them be external linked but odds are it is not appropriate Afghan War Diaries needs a links to the Wikileaks site to be complete. General Petraeus though he has lead the war in Afganistan does not need to have it in his BLP. War in Afghanistan (2001–present) article should be decided based its merits at that article. I dont want to lay out broad new rules especially for these document. I think our existing guide lines our fine to guide us here. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:02, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood me. I meant that, in the articles about the specific leaks, it is a necessity to have an external link to the original source of those links (e.g. to the Wikileaks page for them). We already do this anyways for both the Afghan War Diaries and the Iraq War Documents. I just would like for it to be stated that it is something that should be done anyways. Silverseren^C 22:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Great it seems we agree, I should have made that more explicitly stated. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 23:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I think Silver seren must have misunderstood this position, since as I read it it would remove any link to Wikileaks (even external) from the CFDI article. It is also important to clarify here whether this position would apply only to Wikileaked diplomatic cables or to any classified information leaked by any source. For example, the Pentagon Papers would only occur as an external leak in that article, but would not be acceptable in an article about the Vietnam War? Wnt (talk) 04:13, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I am focusing on Wikileaks Documents for our purposes. Most leaks are given to media outlets who then Report on the contents. It is quite different when we have 250,00 raw documents. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how every one of the thousands of these documents can be assumed to be inherently in contradiction to WP:ELPOV. The only thing thats common among all of these documents is how they were released to the public. There is no single underlying point of view to them as a collective whole. That being said, individual documents may present extreme points of view which may not be acceptable as an external link. Of course BLP matter should be taken into consideration if and when they appear but again we can't assume that all of the cases where we may link to the documents will include BLP violations. On both the POV and BLP issues I think the matter should be decided on a case-by-case basis. ThemFromSpace 05:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, give me a day I'll revise to clarify. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

As sources

We should not use the the documents as sources due to the high risks of misuse accordance with primary sources rule. As much media coverage as there has been and continues to be. We should have no shortage of secondary sources to cover the contents of the documents. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC

Edit

We should not use the the documents by themselves as sources due to the high risks of misuse accordance with primary sources rule. As much media coverage as there has been and continues to be. We should have no shortage of secondary sources to cover the contents of the though the Cables. A Document may be used to supplement an secondary source. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:08, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

Discussion of this position

I can also agree with this. There is more than enough secondary coverage at this point that the primary sources do not need to be used as references, just as ELs. Silverseren^C 19:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I disagree. There are many aspects, and a WP editor might wish to refer to a primary source for reasons other than those of the media. 213.84.53.62 (talk) 19:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Having having observed ClimateGate here on Wikipedia, I fail to see how many document have more potential for POV pusing and BLP violations. the NYT and Foreign Policy magazine both have WP:NEWSBLOGS devoted to Wikileaks dump publishing article based on the document several times a day. I am sure they are scrutinizing each document released well enough we dont have to have editors picking out choice quotes about their least favorite BLP. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 22:11, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with this. The "primary sources rule" urges caution about interpreting primary sources on one's own. But they are still reliable sources. Coming from a scientific background, I always want to look at the actual data for myself. I know I'm not permitted to put my own interpretations of the data into the article, but I feel that the article should invite the next person who reads it to look at it and draw his own conclusions. The general spirit of the Documents section of "The Smoking Gun" applies. You can't really understand what's going on until you've seen the hard facts for yourself. Wnt (talk) 04:20, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I am not comfortable with blanket forbidding the citing of any cable. We don't do this with other types of primary sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 07:31, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

I have revised my statement to Clarify it. I think it will be more agreeable The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 01:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Position of Silver seren

I am setting aside the classified issue, because it is my opinion that classified information once published is considered to be public access. Wikileaks can get in trouble for publishing it, possibly, but we cannot since we are essentially a tertiary source for the information. The government would have to sue all of the newspapers, magazines, and journals that also copied over and published the information (the sources that we use in our articles) before we could be prosecuted. Of course, that is under the assumption that they are even allowed to prosecute for such as the dissemination of the info, which they are not, per the Supreme Court decision of New York Times Co. v. United States.

Now, as for their use as references or EL's, I feel that it is more proper to use them as EL's than as references, just because the use of primary sources as references is often deprecated. However, I also feel that it is 100% necessary to include the cables as EL's. This benefits our readers by allowing them to view the original source for our information and it is also the standard procedure for primary sources across Wikipedia. Thus, the cables should be used in an External Links section and we should rely upon the copious amounts of secondary sources for the actual writing of the article, as we would for any other article. Silverseren^C 19:38, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 23:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

• I think that this is an unwise concession, which might seem tolerable in the case of the CFDI but which generally would be unworkable. Remember, this is an RfC about classified documents in general, not the CFDI article or even Wikileaks. If you are writing an article that needs to cite multiple classified sources (for example, an article about a battle in Afghanistan that needs to cite multiple Afghan War Diaries reports) you will want to be able to link to them inline. (I understand that Afghan War Diaries reports generally are self-published primary sources, not as reliable as the diplomatic cables, but properly integrated with secondary source discussion they should be quite valuable in documenting a battle.) Wnt (talk) 04:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

View by Fetchcomms

There are two parts to this: whether they are primary sources and should be used as references all over the place, and whether it is actually legal or acceptable to link to the information.

• Remember WP:PRIMARY. We shouldn't citing the leaked documents themselves en masse but we can add them as external links where relevant.
• Unless the WMF legal team recommends against linking to these documents, there should be no real issue other than cite them or only externally link them.
• For cables that the NYT/other news sites/etc. have published and/or discussed, I see no reason to prevent linking and/or citing the relevant NYT/news site pages.

Personally, I don't understand the huge fuss—if the WMF thinks it's legal to link to it, then WP:NOTCENSORED means we should have the possibility of linking to them, WP:PRIMARY means we shouldn't cite them as sources too much, and WP:EL means we may use them as external links when appropriate.

/ƒETCHCOMMS/ 22:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Kaldari (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
2. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 23:24, 15 December 2010 (UTC)
3. --Cyclopia^talk 00:36, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
4. Strongly endorsing your second point about our legal counsel. I don't think the community should be discussing the legal ramifications of this until our lawyers tell us there's a problem with linking to leaked documents. ThemFromSpace 05:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
5. Rd232 ^talk 17:57, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
6. --Cybercobra (talk) 18:46, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
7. Guoguo12--Talk--  20:30, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
8. -- Cirt (talk) 05:18, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
9. Enric Naval (talk) 07:32, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
10. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
11. Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:37, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
12. Cerebellum (talk) 01:39, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
13. PleaseStand ^(talk) 06:15, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
14. --JN466 02:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

Agree. This issue is already completely covered by WP:PRIMARY, WP:NOTCENSORED, and WP:EL. There is nothing new to discuss here. If the Supreme Court suddenly decides to overturn New York Times Co. v. United States then we'll have something to talk about. Kaldari (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

View of the Four Deuces

I see them as unreliable primary sources. We have no way of knowing that they are genuine and must rely on secondary sources to determine their veracity. If no reliable secondary sources mention a document then it lacks notability. I do not however see any ethical problems with them, since they are in the public domain, especially if we only report what has been picked up by news media. TFD (talk) 02:38, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

Discussion of this position

Just because classified documents are leaked, does not mean that they are in the public domain. Classified documents are still classified documents. Permission has not been given for their public display.[11] --Elonka 03:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

So far as I understand it this is actually true, but misleading for most of us. As agreed above, third parties have the right to ignore classification under the First Amendment. Where it gets goofy and confusing is whether government security clearance holders are supposed to respect the broken secret, and whether that applies when reading or when republishing them. My snap reaction is that it's just not my problem, and that even the government will have to learn some common sense in this situation. Wnt (talk) 04:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

It's true that "just because classified documents are leaked, does not mean that they are in the public domain". The majority if not all are public domain because they were "prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government as part of that person's official duties" (USC 17 §105 and §101). While it is possible that some may contain fair-use material, or copyrights by assignment, bequest, or otherwise, or even copyright violations, that is unlikely to be a general rule. Anomie⚔ 12:42, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• The suggestion that the U.S. Diplomatic cables themselves, sourced and referenced directly from the WikiLeaks website (and mirrors thereof), are "unreliable primary sources" whose credentials must be established by secondary sources, is absurd. The secondary sources are necessarily useful for providing interpretations of the cables, but they are in no way superior to the WikiLeaks-sourced cables themselves for the purpose of "determin[ing] their veracity" as the WikiLeaks cables. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 07:18, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

• The leaked cables are reliable primary sources about themselves. Nothing more, nothing less. No secondary sources are going to determine whether they are genuine. What each cable, if genuine, expresses, is the opinion of its author. No secondary sources are going to determine its veracity. 213.84.53.62 (talk) 11:45, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

While most of the cables are not doubt genuine, we have no way of knowing that all of them are. Whoever leaked them may have altered some of them, or someone at Wikileaks may have done so. We have no way of knowing. Consider this article from the BBC:

Wikileaks: Pakistan hoaxed by bogus anti-India cables

Pakistani newspapers have admitted they were hoaxed after publishing reports based on fake Wikileaks cables containing anti-Indian propaganda. (BBC, 10 December, 2010)[12]

TFD (talk) 17:02, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

For clarity, note that the "fake Wikileaks cables" in that article are cables falsely claimed to be Wikileaks cables, not genuine Wikileaks cables that turned out to be fake. Anomie⚔ 17:29, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Anomie is absolutely right. It seems that TFD has put the cart before the horse, by a huge margin. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 20:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, we still have no way of knowing that all of the (real) Wikileaks cables are genuine. That news article just doesn't serve to show that any aren't, although it does show that some aren't above creating fake cables and falsely claiming they are from Wikileaks. Anomie⚔ 21:33, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Which is another good reason for including references directly to WikiLeaks for verification purposes. Uncensored Kiwi ^Kiss 22:09, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Uncensored Kiwi. We also have no way to know if any given new scientific article contains genuine results or is the result of a fabrication: yet we usually assume they're meaningful unless proven the contrary. The default position of both news organizations and governments is that cables are indeed genuine unless differently declared. --Cyclopia^talk 02:30, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

View of Count Iblis

I agree with Wnt, but we need to think about adding a disclamer on top of these articles because of the warnings given by The White House Office of Management and Budget to federal employees: "The White House Office of Management and Budget sent a memo Friday afternoon forbidding unauthorized federal government employees and contractors from accessing classified documents publicly available on WikiLeaks and other websites using computers or devices like BlackBerrys and smart phones."

A disclamer would then allow such employees to safely browse Wikipedia and read information about the leaks. Count Iblis (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

A disclaimer would be accomodation. However, the documents are now in the public domain anyways, and also available from any link to wikileaks (documents or not), so theres no real issue ont he use thereof.(Lihaas (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)).

The documents are not in the public domain. Classified documents are still classified.[13] It appears to be a common misconception that any work by the United States government is public domain, but this is not true. "Publicly available" does not mean "public domain". Or think of it this way: If someone scans a photo out of a book, and then publishes it on their website, the photo may be "publicly available", but that does not mean that the photo is in the public domain. --Elonka 02:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Look, a strawman! The claims that the documents are public domain rely on the rather clear wording of USC Title 17 § 105 and § 101, not some vague claim that "publicly available" equals "public domain". But you should be well aware of that by now, so why continue to spread misinformation? Anomie⚔ 04:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing in either of those sections that says anything about classified documents going into the public domain if they happen to be leaked. Please use some common sense. Documents that are classified are intended to be secret and not for the public view. Just because someone stole classified documents, does not suddenly mean that the documents are in the public domain and free to distribute. Classified information is still classified information, leaked or not. There are laws against the disclosure of classified information.[14] --Elonka 04:31, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

There is also nothing to say that classified documents are exempt from § 105. USC Title 18 § 798 has nothing to do with copyright, something could easily be public domain but illegal to distribute for other reasons. Anomie⚔ 14:47, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

This would probably be contrary to WP:NDA. Anomie⚔ 04:25, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Outside the US is it, now that its been released. What is holding it back outside the usa? if it wasnt then there would already have been plenty of ground fortreason to charg on Assange from a multitude of countries where it isnt so.Lihaas (talk) 16:53, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand what treason means. If Assange were an American who had released classified information, he might be charged with treason, but he is not American, he is Australian. He could, however, be charged with espionage, or possibly terrorism. For more information, see Julian Assange#Espionage investigation in the United States. As for the individual who first leaked the current batch of documents, Bradley Manning, he has already been arrested, and is facing a court-martial. --Elonka 19:36, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

No, Assanje could not be charged regardless. He is the head of an organization that is, essentially, the same as a news organization. Thus, under the ruling of New York Times Co. v. United States, he and the organization of Wikileaks is protected. Yes, Bradley Manning is court-martialed and likely rightfully so, but once he gave the information to an external news-like source, it is no longer held under treason laws, per previously stated Supreme Court decision. Silverseren^C 19:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, Silver Seren, but I don't think you know what you are talking about here. For example, Manning is not court-martialed. He is facing a court-martial, which is a different thing. As for whether or not Assange can be charged, there is a rather large debate going on about this right now, so it is not helpful for you to state as a fact that he cannot be charged, when secondary sources are stating otherwise.[15] --Elonka 21:00, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That source is about the rape charges. What exactly does that have to do with this? Yes, there is a statement in there from a US spokesperson saying that they are looking into using the Espionage Act, but looking into is so vague as to be relatively meaningless. Silverseren^C 21:10, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The source directly contradicts your statement that "Assange could not be charged". Just because he hasn't been charged yet, does not mean that he cannot be charged, and as is clear from the source, there are active efforts underway for him to be charged. So it is not correct for you to say that Assange cannot be charged, when sources state otherwise. Please stop repeating false statements. --Elonka 21:16, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

No, legally, he cannot be charged. The section you linked to above, link repeated again here, is quite revealing. It says that the government is exploring the possibility, but then it has Biden saying "If he conspired to get these classified documents with a member of the US military that is fundamentally different than if someone drops on your lap … you are a press person, here is classified material." Well, it is quite clear that Assanje did not conspire with Bradley Manning for this information, so Assanje fits under the latter description. The rest of that section is just opinions from commentators and other people, but nothing about legality.

Furthermore, as I have been saying time and again, the Espionage Act of 1917 was made null toward news organizations, which Wikileaks quite easily fits under, by the Supreme Court decision of New York Times Co. v. United States in 1971. These "active efforts" that you are speaking of are singular statements by government officials, when there is no evidence of anything actively being undertaken at this time. The belief that he can be charged and that he will be charged is mere speculation at this point. Silverseren^C 21:33, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

View of bahamut0013

First off, I must immediately declare my bias: I am a United States Marine, with a valid security clearance (that I would naturally like to maintain, as I am subject to Articles 92 and 134 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice). My position is that these documents should not be referenced, linked to, or quoted except in a few very stringent exceptions. I am heavily influenced to the recent diplomatic cables leak, but my position is on all classified materials, regardless of origin, content, or method of exposure.

Foremost, though courts have consistently upheld the freedom of press and free speech as overriding prosecution of previously published classified documents, we should consider the word and spirit of Title 18, Chapter 37, Section 798 of the United States Code (18 U.S.C. §§ 37–798). While it is unlikely that WMF or any reader would be prosecuted for the security violation or espionage, we have an obligation to handle these carefully when we come into contact with them. The intent is the protection of the national security of the United States; while I am well aware that the population of editors and readers are not all U.S. citizens, and not all have the security of the nation as a priority, I would expect a level of respect for our laws and needs. Indeed, many of the physical assets and Foundation's legal status exist under the jurisdiction of the laws of the United States, so it is a primary concern even for editors who have never set foot on U.S. soil. While legal precedent might shield us from liability (indeed, they have bigger fish to fry at the moment), we have to consider the moral obligations of the law.

Simply put, the release of these documents did hinder the interests of the United States, her government, and her citizens. Some of you may have read the recent TIME article that asserts otherwise, but we are not in the position to make that judgement with any level of competence or authority. I'd wager that very few editors have the proper clearances to view this material, and those that do understand that the methods of release do not authorize them (or anyone) to actually view these documents. The cat may be out of the bag, but classified material is classified material, regardless of whether it has been compromised or not. Simply because we can reference these documents does not go towards whether or not we should. These state secrets may seem benign, but there are consequences that are unfathomable, as none of us are omnipotent. Sources may have been compromised, which could end lives directly or indirectly, intelligence operations may have been compromised, and the plans of the government that should not have seen light for many years are now in the open. For example, the very day that the first cables were posted to WikiLeaks saw the North Koreans scrambling into a diplomatic panic with China, and the relationships between Iran and her Arab neighbors grew strained. Another example of unexpected fallout would be the Plame affair, where one journalist's lack of discretion blew up into a large scandal. When we can't possibly understand all of the subtle implications, do we want to be involved in propagating them?

To those who cite that this leak will fight the over-use of classification, I ask them to consider two points. One, that the public at large should never have been in the position to make this judgement, nor is it qualified to. On the second point to consider is WP:POINT. How can we have an internal policy and not respect it in a broader sense? If we can't GAME Wikipedia itself, why should we justify gaming the government? Wikipedia is here to make an encyclopedia, not to make political change in the issue of classified materials and censorship in the United States.

Lastly, consider the sources themselves. Not many of them are actually of encyclopedic value. They are all primary sources, unverifiable at best, and possibly outright false at worst. Wikilieaks may have been able to verify that the documents are authentic diplomatic cables, but that is it; neither they nor WMF can verify that the contents are true, unbiased, and not part of a disinformation act. Most of what the State Department has generated cannot be used in an encyclopedic manner. The only exception to my thoughs on referencing these documents is when the classified material itself is the subject of the article, such as the Pentagon Papers. Even in that case, we must be judicious in how the material is used; I believe that a simple link to a third-party publisher will work for an external link, and the affiliated media reaction can be used for references on the content of the article. Quoting should be used sparingly in any article, and in this case, only for exceptional educational value, and carefully referenced with the original and some verified third party.

For those of you who want the tl;dr version: using classified materials is dangerous and usually doesn't further WMF's goals. The use of them as a reference is often counter-productive and fails WP:V. bahamut0013^words_deeds 14:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this position

1. Well said, and I appreciate that this statement was written from the point of view of someone who works for the United States government and understands the ramifications of dealing with classified material. I would also re-emphasize one point, which is that distributing classified material is illegal in the United States, and since Wikipedia's servers are in Florida, Wikipedia must abide by U.S. law in this matter. --Elonka 19:20, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of this position

Hmm. I actually pretty strongly disagree with this position.

• but we are not in the position to make that judgement with any level of competence or authority. - but you do seem to make this judgement? As a pointed out above; you would be shocked beyond measure of the effect of entirely innocuous material added to the wiki daily in the real world. We cannot make a judgement as to the impact of what we write or include - with the only caveat that if the material causes obvious harm we should err on the side of caution. However; we are not censored. Whilst you make a good point we already have policies to guide us in these matters and I see no reason to treat these documents differently.
• One, that the public at large should never have been in the position to make this judgement, nor is it qualified to.; this section, I think, is irrelevant because the argument it is countering is a null one that we should avoid. Wikipedia only has one real aim; to record worldly knowledge. However on this issue in general; this is incredibly dangerous thinking, of course we are in a position to judge these things. And only by threatening the limitations of classification can we ensure that the government is doing what it is supposed to. However, this is an argument irrelevant to Wikipedia and these documents.
• we have an obligation to handle these carefully when we come into contact with them; actually, no we don't. And we shouldn't ever feel anything beyond what our own personal moral obligations make us feel. It is the obligation of the US government to set their rules on classification, and then keep it that way. It is not our obligation to keep it for them.
• I'd wager that very few editors have the proper clearances to view this material, and those that do understand that the methods of release do not authorize them (or anyone) to actually view these documents.; something of an argument from false authority. I am experienced in the classification, distribution and release procedures of a number of governments (US included) and at best this is legally complex. Once the Whistle is blown it is not an offence to read these documents. Why? Well the main reason (in most countries) is to do with "accidental disclosure". Rules around this were designed to avoid the situations where, if you end up reading something secret, some enterprising government agent doesn't come and stick a black bag over your head. The rules are quit explicit in disclosure; so if you are privy to a secret and pass it to someone without access to that secret then you break the law. Simply viewing and receiving classified material without intent is entirely legal. In the US I'm pretty sure it comes under first amendment rights. Now, where this becomes problematic is not in people viewing this, but in us handing them the links. It will go to court I am sure, and I won't bet on the outcome. However, as you mentioned above, it is not for us to judge. And if legal ramifications exist then the WMF will be able to provide expert advice and tell us what to do. Until they do, let's not second guess legal issues.

All in all, while I see your viewpoint, I do not think it is overly relevant. We should treat these as traditional primary sources and allow proper legal counsel to guide and advise us if there are legal problems with the links. --Errant ^(chat!) 17:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm adding the following to ErrantX's well-expressed objections to bahamut0013's statement:

• First, I'd appreciate a link to the TIME article you mention. Not because I doubt you, bahamut0013, but since you base your argument in part on it it would be nice to read the article for myself. (I'm not a subscriber to TIME, & would prefer not to find & sift thru the last several issues.)
• Your legal arguments really aren't germane here. To repeat ErrantX above, if there is a significant legal problem here, the Foundation will let us know.
• Any damage to US foreign interests have already been done by the release of these documents. I expect everyone who stands to benefit from their publication -- both friendly & hostile to the US -- have been going thru them with a fine-toothed comb, & have learned far more than anything they could get from a Wikipedia article.
• While I disagree with you over the sources being "actually of encyclopedic value", I do agree with you that many of the topics discussed in the WikiLeaks documents are not encyclopedic. But we have mechanisms to deal with that issue, & the sooner we can dismiss the concern over classified documents, the sooner we can filter out these unencyclopedic articles.
• One area where I foresee these sources being invaluable will be down the road from now, when all of the hullabaloo over this affair has died down & the news media have turned to the next big political or celebrity scandal. That is helping to add details to the biographies of foreign politicians & other notables for whom there is otherwise little material to be found. A major block in writing articles on second-tier (& lower) officials in many non-Western countries is that there exists so little available information about them -- not even a resume or curriculae vitae -- & I doubt anyone will be writing their biographies in English soon. If ever. (Which I find odd, since politicians almost uniformly are quite eager to publicize themselves.) These documents will be a significant help in filling that gap. -- llywrch (talk) 18:41, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Llywrch, I agree with much of what you say, but I have concerns about the statement regarding the WMF. I have seen other people say this too, effectively, "If it's illegal, the WMF will tell us, otherwise we should assume it's legal." I don't think this is a wise, or even correct, course of action. If something is obviously illegal, we don't need to wait for the WMF to confirm its illegality, we should be able, as a community, to use some common sense and follow the laws on our own. --Elonka 19:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
    • However, many users here clearly believe that the information is not illegal, which is more what I think Llywrch is saying. We believe this information to be legal to use and if the WMF disagrees with us, they will let us know. Silverseren^C 19:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
      • If something is obviously illegal, we don't need to wait for the WMF to confirm its illegality, we should be able, as a community, to use some common sense and follow the laws on our own.; just to clarify, it is not illegal to link to this material. I cannot be any more unequivocal than that. If the WMF has specific concerns or decide there will be future risk/damage they will tell us. If you are concerned, ask them directly for advice. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
        • Per WP:ELNO, item #3, we are not to link to information which is illegal to access in the State of Florida. Disclosure of classified information is illegal, as Bradley Manning well knows, since he is currently under arrest and facing a possible 52 years in prison. --Elonka 20:04, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
          • The disclosure of classified information is illegal, yes, which is why Bradley Manning is being court-martialed. But it is not illegal to view these documents after the fact. You and I, if we were in the State of Florida even, could not be arrested for viewing these documents. It is not illegal to do so, so it doesn't fall under WP:ELNO. Silverseren^C 20:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
            • You are stating things as fact, which are not correct. In reality, it is illegal to be in possession of unauthorized classified information. People are routinely detained, computers confiscated and wiped or destroyed in regards to the unauthorized disclosure of classified information. In this particular case, the leak is so huge, that the government cannot take action against everyone at once, so there is an ongoing debate about how things should be handled. But just because the government is refraining from acting in this one particular case, does not mean that it is legal to view leaked classified information. Universities and government agencies are warning their students and employees to refrain from viewing the Wikileaks documents, because it could interfere with their employment status. To repeat: Classified information that has been leaked, is still classified. It is illegal in the United States to distribute it. As for how Wikipedia should deal with this, I think it is reasonable for us to write articles based on what reliable secondary sources are saying about the leaks. But we should not link to the classified primary sources themselves, and we should not be using Wikipedia or Wikisource or any WMF project to try and reproduce verbatim the classified contents of these documents. --Elonka 21:12, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
              • And if it is really illegal to publish this leaked information, why the SHIELD Act? Anomie⚔ 21:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
                • Thank you, Anomie. The attempt to push through the SHIELD Act clearly shows that what Wikileaks has done is not illegal at this moment, which means it is neither illegal for other news organizations or Wikipedia to use the sources. Furthermore, if by some miracle this Act actually passes, ex post facto laws would still apply, which means Wikileaks could not be charged for the documents they have previously released. Silverseren^C 21:38, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
                  • Elonka, whilst I am of the belief we are all "non-experts" here, in this case I am very definitely able to give you he correct legal answer; and that answer is it is not illegal to hold this material, only to actually leak or disclose it. This is enshrined in law. I don't like to play cards like this, but you are demonstrating the danger of misinformation. If an in depth examination by WMF decides it is too dangerous or has legal rammifications then fine, till then this is not "clearly illegal" in the way you have been misinformed --Errant ^(chat!) 21:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
          • I really don't think this is an accurate application of WP:ELNO point 3 which prohibits against linking to material which is "illegal to access". ELNO point 3 deals with viewing published material, not initially obtaining it. What it prevents is linking to websites that are illegal to visit, such as child pornography which is illegal to even have on one's computer monitor. These leaked documents were indeed "illegal to access", but only insofar as it was illegal to initially obtain them. How they were obtained has nothing to do with ELNO point 3, which only deals with whether the documents are illegal to view. ThemFromSpace 22:06, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with the position that this information should have been kept secret. I think that when soldiers or diplomats report the names of confidential informants who could be put in personal danger as the result of a disclosure, that this sort of detail should go straight to a piece of paper kept in a safe in the embassy, and not broadcast on a secret network accessible to 500,000 people. But Wikipedia has nothing to do with the original leaker, or even the decision by Wikileaks and other journalists to report the leaked information.

• Where I disagree is that I don't think Wikipedia or anyone else needs to weigh the benefits and risks of making public information available to the common people. We have been through all this when we made the decision to allow articles about things like acetone peroxide. There is a fundamental difference between saying that it is wrong to break a confidence and saying that it is wrong for people who have made no promises to come together and share their knowledge. This is not "gaming the system" — it is the central essence of having an open society. You don't apply to the government to be admitted to the Chemist Caste before you are allowed to learn about explosives, and you shouldn't have to apply to be given a national security clearance before you're allowed to learn about leaked classified documents. People have the right to free speech and a free press and they come together and talk and write and make free encyclopedias. And that's why the courts ruled as they did to preserve this right.

• Now will this lead to bad things? Almost assuredly. But there is an element of faith here, faith not just in the secular sense but in a genuinely religious sense, that "the truth will make you free". It is connected to a sense of democratic humility, in choosing not to judge other people. The faith involved is that freedom of the press is a good tree, that will bear good fruit — that even though some of the risks are easy to speculate and the rewards are hard to see, the rewards will still more than make up for the risks. I think that this is not so hard to see given a little imagination. With the CFDI list we see that, yes, there are some elements on which the U.S. depends economically, and no doubt some of the owners of the mines on the list have been emboldened by it to push for higher prices. But with increased public knowledge of the importance of these elements comes the possibility for people to invent new batteries and alloys that no longer depend on them. Then the U.S. will never again be at the mercy of the countries that produce them, and the people of those countries can be freed from wars and oppressive regimes prompted by the desires of international powers to gain control over the mines. Now that is true counterterrorism.

• I am not so confident that the invention of new ideas is so free from moral qualms, but in theory ("WP:OR") Wikipedia is not setting out to do that. Wnt (talk) 18:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I have 2 thoughts regarding this View of bahamut0013; 1 practical and 1 political. Practical; had the Pentagon Papers been widely distributed earlier than 1971, some, maybe many American troops who died in Vietnam might still be alive because America's participation in that war may have ended sooner than it did. Political; "To those who cite that this leak will fight the over-use of classification, I ask them to consider two points. One, that the public at large should never have been in the position to make this judgement, nor is it qualified to. I find this to be an extremely profound factoid, the acceptance of which is shared by many,many Americans and others. The rub is, if classified information is as important as bahamut0013 states, then whoever possesses the information is controlling the decision making process for the country, and if,as the factoid professes, that "whoever" should not be the public, then what does that do to the Declaration of Independence's "Government of the People and By the People"? So, at the risk of appearing melodramatic, I believe that the notion that the public is not qualified to judge whether classification is being over used is inherently an unconstitutional notion, notwithstanding its widespread following. I would also add that the USA managed pretty well in wars and other conflicts prior to the National Security Act of 1947 from which most of the current secrecy sprung. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 04:39, 22 December 2010 (UTC)