Talk:Christmas and holiday season/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Revision

The citations that the new revision provides are inadequate in supporting the name "Winter holiday season". The main source that apparently supports the "History" section, only uses the term "winter holiday season" once, and uses Christmas or New Year's Day the rest of the time. The term "Winter holiday season" is a neologism and this "History" section is misleading and inaccurate. I continue to support its deletion and hope others that read this discussion will as well. The term has no place at Wikipedia— OLP 1999 15:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Winter holiday season not only doesn't refer exactly to Christmas or New Year's Day, but also doesn't discount Valentine's Day (or President's Day), either (Valentine's Day is February 14, which is still in the winter season for the Northern Hemisphere). Basically, the winter holiday season can refer to any time between December 1 and March 1 (the winter quarter of the year), with there being a temporary lull between mid-January and early February. --Videowizard2006 19:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone refer to Valentine's Day or Presidents' Day as a 'winter holiday'. Schools take 'Winter Holidays' to avoid mentioning Christmas, just as they take 'Spring Holidays' to avoid mentioning Easter. 'Holiday Season' is often used to include Hanukkah, Christmas and New Year's, but I'm not sure that justifies an article. -- Donald Albury 12:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it does not justify an article on its own; hence the merge request. — Sebastian (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm making this suggestion the right way, I'm new here, but the phrase "the Christmas season[1][2][3], is the religion-neutral designation" should be changed. Better: "...the Christmas season[1][2][3], is both a religious and a religion-neutral designation 66.82.9.74

January sales

Actually, the January sales do belong here, and are part of the holiday shopping season. Retailers and economists regard them as being so. And they are not solely closeout sales, partly because of the manufacture of sale-specific lines (as mentioned for Germany) and partly given the existence of gift certificates. See this, this, this, and this, for a few of the many examples of how the January sales are considered to be an integral part of the whole season. Uncle G 12:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Southern hemisphere

So what about those of us who celebrate what you call the "Winter holiday season" in summer? It seems that by being PC you can't please everyone. -- Chuq 01:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yuletide season

Given all the arguments maybe Yuletide season would be the best name. See Yule for the history of the term. While it is in modern terms often associated with Christmas, its original meaning was tied more to the time of year (winter solstice) and the seasonal issues are often tied not only to the holidays themselves, but the lack of light and the depth of winter.
In other words this time of year has been a holiday, and an issue since before Christmas. —MJBurrage • TALK • 19:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Completely disagree. That term is nowhere near as notable as "Christmas season" or "holiday season". We should keep the title as is. Steven Evens (talk) 16:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting PC rubbish

This artical is, to be honest disgustingly PC, its not racist to call Christmas 'Christmas', and calling it anything else only infuriates people, and increases support for the Far Right. We really do need to rename this artical --Boris 1991 16:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Come on - the article covers ten other festivals in addition to Christmas - you think we should label Hanukkah as Christmas? Hut 8.5 18:33, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
No, i never said that, i think that all the major festivals should have there own articals. It is pretty clear that this artical is mainly about Christmas, but it goes about it in a very PC way--Boris 1991 19:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is not about calling Christmas other names, or even about names at all. This article is about the Winter holiday season, as discussed in the sources that it cites. Uncle G 21:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Santa. Can we delete this article, please? Thanks. 207.238.52.162 (talk) 22:56, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Change the title back to Winter Holiday Season

OK, a great name for the Winter Holiday Season? Now the same concept can be applied to "Babe Ruth and Baseball", "John Lennon and The Beatles", "New York City and New York" and many other articles which would make about as much sense. It should be changed back to its original title, for Wikipedia standards and for POV integrity. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:58, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

It appears you have not read the section immediately above this one, where the title of the article was discussed at length. There is no consensus for titling this article as either "Christmas season" or "(Winter) holiday season" for the various reasons outlined above. If you still have concerns after reading that section, please feel free to address them. — CIS (talk | stalk) 03:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

"Americas" vs "USA and Canada"

There's a sub-section in the article that's mostly about the USA, with a little bit about Canada. User CrazyInSane wants it called "Americas". I see no point, unless content about a lot more places is added. I will revert again, again WITH an Edit summary, something CrazyInSane didn't do. HiLo48 (talk) 23:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

USA and Canada is significantly culturally different from the the rest of the Americas, so they shouldn't be lumped together. Perhaps a section could be written about Latin America. Considering that we only have sections on shopping and legal, medical, and "other" analysis of the season, I'm not going to hold my breath. Swarm X 03:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Holidaytime

Is it actually commonly called this anywhere? Swarm X 12:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Not anywhere I've been, which is most of Australia, NZ, and a few other places. But in Australia it is very commonly called the Summer Holidays, because schools and a lot of businesses have long breaks at that time, just like in the US, hence my recent, now deleted addition. But I don't know if it's wise anyway to try to include every different naming convention from around the world. HiLo48 (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, HiLo. I simply thought "winter holidays" and "summer holidays" were redundant, and just listing "the holidays" would be sufficient. in hindsight, perhaps it wasn't the best move. I've re-added "summer holidays". While I'm certainly not paranoid about the term "holiday" being used like some are, "holidaytime" may well be a pc version of "christmastime" used by the press. I don't really think it's necessary, but if I'm wrong and "holidaytime" is commonly used somewhere, it should be added again. Swarm X 03:04, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
I reckon that's a good theory about holidaytime, the PC version of Christmas TIme. And, as I said, I won't personally push hard for Summer Holidays if someone else thinks it's overkill. HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Name change

When was this article moved from Winter holiday season to here? Why? This name is inherently POV; the other holidays mentioned are largely not related to Christmas at all. To lump them in as "occurring around Christmas" is to promote a Christian world-view. Suggest the article be moved back to neutral name. KillerChihuahua?!? 11:38, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not quite that cut-and-dried - "winter" promotes a northern-hemispheric POV, and "holiday season" by itself is an American term. --McGeddon (talk) 11:46, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I agree, but "Christmas" makes it worse, not better. Have you a non-religion specific, non-NA specific name to suggest? Or perhaps we need to revisit Afd? KillerChihuahua?!? 11:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I recently added this note to the "notes" section to explain why this article uses both namesakes: "The usage "holiday season" or some variation thereof is usually only used to any notable extent in the United States and Canada. Due, however, to the prevalence of celebration in these countries, this article reflects both the "Christmas season" and "holiday season" namesakes." I don't think it's a good idea to move this to "Winter holiday season", or "holiday season", because it's very notable as being "Christmas season" — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 12:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I read your words, but it looks like OR/SYNTH to me. You concur that "holiday season" is US/CA. McGeddon points out that "Winter holidays" is NA-centric. "Christmas" anywhere in the title makes this a Christian POV of other holidays, which is extreme religious POV. So you're saying you're lumping in Christmas with other holidays for a NA/CA view, and labeling it with a Christian label to avoid being NA/CA centric? This is not workable. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:41, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, this is not a simple black and white issue. Renaming this article to "(Winter) holiday season" would have potential as being seen as a US-centric POV considering that the term originated there and is only notable there. Also, it can be argued that the biggest reason that the holidays surrounding Christmas (incl. Hanukkah and Kwanzaa) are popular, is because of their proximity to Christmas. I can dig up sources from Jewish rabbis saying that Hanukkah is a minor, unimportant Jewish holiday that became popularized simply due to its proximity to the December 25 holiday and its season.
And really, what does "winter holiday season" even mean without Christmas as a centralizing factor? Many "winter holidays" like Valentine's Day are never considered as part of the "winter holiday season" because they're not close to Christmas. And same goes for "holiday season", which some Brits would probably mistake as the summer period, as their usage of "holiday" varies. If we're going to change the article name, the only option I can see is "Christmas or holiday season", which would focus more on the fact that these two terms are used separately to refer to the same idea. Also, I could agree with "Christmas and New Year or holiday season". That, or delete this article. It's quite a mess as it is — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 12:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Agree, this is not simple. I've raised questions to which I have no answer, and hope together we can find one acceptable to all. KillerChihuahua?!? 13:06, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
If you want to remove any reference to religion then you need to find a better word than holiday (holy day, get it?). The fact is that nobody else but Jews celebrate a holiday during december (NOBODY celebrates Kwanzaa), and the Jews don't make a big deal of their holidays because they are all about feeling sorry for themselves. Therefore, this is the CHRISTMAS SEASON. Certain other religious or non-religious groups, might not like seeing Christians full of joy and happiness during their season of depression and anger, but you know what? So what! MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone, Christ is born, Alleluia! Egosintrick —Preceding undated comment added 15:56, 24 December 2010 (UTC).
Two point.... Holiday doesn't mean holy day today. And in the southern hemisphere, we perfectly sensibly have our major holiday period in the summer, which happens to include Christmas time. HiLo48 (talk) 22:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
In answer to "when/why was this article moved":-
--McGeddon (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
How about "End-of-year holiday season"? ----occono (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Disagree, that title is not notable. "Christmas season" and "holiday season" are both equally notable in America, while "holiday season" is relatively unknown in Europe. Your proposal, though perhaps a more neutral title, is not a notable name for the Christmas/holiday season. And if we're supposed to consider New Year's Day as part of the "End-of-year holiday season", why is it at the beginning of the year? Obviously this season centers around Christmas, and is notably referred to as the Christmas season or holiday season in common parlance and the media. — CIS (talk | stalk) 16:01, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

What controversy?

"...resulted in controversy in the western countries..."? Even if we allow the existence of the artificial concept of "western countries", there was no controversy of any kind in any countries in Europe about the use the term Christmas or any accompanying terms. The aforementioned "controversy" exited in USA only, although I'm not really sure about the situation in Canada or Australia. As for Europe, in all European countries the issue was known exclusively for its anecdotal value. Actually, for Europe even calling it an "issue" would be a gross overstatement. What "controversy" could there be? I understand that this part of the article apparently written by a US author, who felt some sort of inferiority complex due to the appallingly ridiculous handling of this matter in his own country, so he decided to soften the impact by pretending that USA is not alone in this laughable mess. Sorry, but I believe the article should be cleaned up. Let's not insult European countries by this sort of abuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Calligrapher (talk • contribs) 23:02, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Hallowe'en

If article says that holiday season runs from late November to early January, why is Hallowe'en included in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elmedinsa (talk • contribs) 16:28, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Because the season is ever expanding (due to Christmas creep) and now encompasses most of November in practical terms. So Halloween serves a sort of bulwark between the holiday season and the rest of the year in the US. -- MichiganCharms (talk)

Summer holidays in the southern hemisphere.

The Christmas and holiday season is, not surprisingly to anyone with a brain, often known as the summer holidays in Australia, and no doubt many other places in the southern hemisphere, because it's summer here then. Der. I'm at two reverts in an edit skirmish with an IP editor who has three times removed it from the Infobox, posting Edit summaries of "definitely not called that anywhere, but you can go try to find a cite?" and "rv - it's called "winter holidays" in America because of political correctness, which doesn't exist in any Southern Hemisphere countries... show one cite for this term". Cites are simple to find, but that's not the point. We should not have to cite something that's bloody obvious, unles we demand cites for every entry in the "Also called" list.

Can someone with more patience please take over the fight with this arrogant, ignorant fool? HiLo48 (talk) 08:06, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 14 December 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 06:55, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Christmas and holiday season → Christmas season – In the spirit of WP:CONCISE, there is no need to have two different names in the title. Christmas is the better choice per WP:VNE: it is preferred to use a term used worldwide than one that is predominantly American. 86.133.39.112 (talk) 22:33, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

But it is most commonly described as the Christmas season. It is, in fact, POV to make up the unnatural title 'Christmas and holiday season' for the sake of political correctness. 86.133.39.112 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
It's also commonly called The Holiday Season. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:37, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Not outside the USA. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 23:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I ran a Google search and got plenty of hits in Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand. I have no doubt that the term Holiday Season is not used in non-English speaking countries, but this is English Wikipedia. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:18, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I can assure you, as someone from the UK, that the term Holiday Season is an Americanism that is rarely ever used synonymously with the Christmas season. For example, type 'UK Holiday Season' into Google and see that most results are for booking holidays (what Americans call vacations), especially during the school holidays. If anything, 'Holiday Season' refers to the summer (for example, here). On the other hand, we all know what is meant by the Christmas season: the time of year leading up to and following Christmas. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 12:40, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry: I realise you might not see the same results as I do if your location is outside the UK, even if you search for the same term. For the sake of reference, here are the first ten results I can see:
http://www.ownersdirect.co.uk/info/school-holidays
http://www.seasonsholidays.com/
http://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/uk/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_and_holiday_season
gouk.about.com/od/festivalsandevents/u/winter_festivals_in_the_uk.htm
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/ukcampsites/camping-by-season/british-school-holidays/
http://www.smoothhound.co.uk/tourism/advice3.html
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g1539370-d1798308-Reviews-Seasons_Holidays_Whitbarrow_Village-Berrier_Cumbria_England.html
http://www.haven.com/
http://www.grandukholidays.com/festive-holidays
It might be worth noting, although we do not use the term Holiday Season like Americans do, we do use the word Festive Season. I wonder whether this is in use worldwide, like Christmas Season. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 12:58, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure if you noticed, but what you are talking about is already referenced in the article itself. At the bottom of the last opening paragraph, it is mentioned that "holiday season" is not widespread in the UK for referring to the Christmas season. I don't think anyone here contests that point, it's just that a large amount of English-speaking countries with large populations do use the term "holiday season", so it has much weight as an alternate phrase describing this time of year. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the clarification. I think the problem with Holiday Season is that it is a regional description, instead of the more widely understood description of Christmas Season (see WP:COMMONALITY and below). Thank you for your advice. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 17:03, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS if we are going to be unbaised, we should call it the New Years season. Not everyone is Christian, and Hannukah is not Christmas, nor is the Winter Solstice Festival that predates Christianity. Indeed, it is the Norther hemisphere winter solstice festival if we don't want bias concerning what calendar to use. -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 05:55, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
WP:EUPHEMISM: editors should avoid unnecessary and uncommon euphemisms. If it is most commonly called the Christmas season, it should be called so here. 86.133.39.112 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
Also note SYSTEMICBIAS is only an essay, while EUPHEMISM is part of the MOS. -- Calidum 20:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. The current title seems made up. Holiday season wouldn't work because it's too ambiguous. Thus, Christmas season works best. -- Calidum 18:59, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Support – Even as an avowed atheist, if we're talking about "annually recurring period recognized in many Western and Western-influenced countries" as it says in the lead, this is the Christmas season. Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The holiday season would be better, but to call it just 'Christmas season'? This seems to disrespect many other traditions, religions, and celebrations, many much older than Christmas. 'Holiday and Christmas season' may be the best consensus name, at least better than the present one, but to remove 'Holiday season' altogether seems unfair. Randy Kryn 19:15 16 December, 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. I've never heard it called the "holiday season" anywhere except America (or in American films/TV), and the vast majority of the article is about Christmas. I challenge you to find one person who calls it the "Christmas and holiday season". —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
I call it the 'Holiday season'. And I doubt if many Jewish families call it the 'Christmas season'. This may be the wrong question, if anything the page maybe should be named 'Holiday season' (I think it used to be?). Ho ho ho? Randy Kryn 12:14 17 December, 2014 (UTC)
To a family that seriously observes Judaism the "holiday season" is not the end of the Gregorian year but the High Holy Days at the start of the Jewish year—Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Hanukkah is really one of the smaller Jewish holidays. It has become much more prominent in North America in the past 50 years basically because it coincides with the secularised Christmas season and therefore provides a convenient occasion for Jewish parents to also display the "spirit of the season" and give their children presents too. In Israel, where the Christmas/"Holiday" season of November and December is largely absent, Hanukkah remains one of the smaller holidays. —  Cliftonian (talk)  15:58, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Just wanted to say that while I agree with Cliftonian is saying here, this debate is not about whether it should be called the "holiday season" or not, it's about whether the name of this article should reflect "holiday season", which I argue it should because of its abundance in sources to refer to this time of year. Crumpled Fire (talk) 15:02, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
I can see where you are coming from, but does that not just contradict WP:CONCISE? This says we must 'balance brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic'. The term Christmas Season seems more than sufficient to identify the article, in preference to using an additional term that means the same. For example, we have the article Eggplant instead of some combination of Eggplant and Aubergine, despite the abundance of Aubergine in sources. Also, WP:COMMONALITY describes how we should use universally used terms (and Christmas Season is understood everywhere) rather than more regional terms. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 17:03, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. First of all the "Christmas season" also refers to the period of Christmastide within Christianity, between Dec. 25 and Jan. 7 as explained in the article. So some Christians would already object to the commercial season (technically Advent in Christianity) being called "Christmas season" when it traditionally isn't called that. Now of course, notwithstanding that, it's still primarily called "Christmas season" in pop culture, but it's also called "holiday season" in the U.S. and Canada (probably more than "Christmas season" these days), as well as less frequently in Australia and NZ as a result of American export, and these are some of the most populous English-speaking nations, so I reckon "holiday season" is just as notable as "Christmas season" for use on English Wikipedia. I don't think it should be just "holiday season" either because then that becomes too American-centric, but calling it just "Christmas season" adds unnecessary ambiguity with the traditional Christmastide season, and excludes the very large proliferation of the "holiday season" nomenclature in America and some commonwealth nations. Crumpled Fire (talk) 14:21, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
See my above point about WP:COMMONALITY: it is preferable to use a universially understood term than a regional one, especially in article titles (meaning that Christmas Season is preferred to Holiday Season, even if Holiday Season is popular regionally). On the other hand, the argument about Christmastide should be looked into. Is it common for Christians to refer to Christmastide as the Christmas Season? Overall, when reliable sources talk about the Christmas Season, how often do they talk about Christmastide? Is there an alternative solution (Festive Season, or is this just a British term?)? 86.158.182.56 (talk) 17:03, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
The issue is definitely quite complex and complicated, especially since it seems we are in the midst of experiencing a cultural transition in English-speaking nations (at least in America, Canada and some commonwealth countries) from calling this period the "Christmas season" to calling it the "holiday season", with the particular goal of including other holidays including New Year's, Hanukkah, neopagan winter solstice revival celebrations, and Kwanzaa (U.S.). This Google Ngram historical record of English-language books from 1800–2008 shows that around 1997 instances of "holiday season" eclipsed "Christmas season", and the former has been rising in prominence ever since. "Festive season" barely shows up on the radar. So there is certainly an argument to be made that "holiday season" is becoming more popular than "Christmas season" in many sources to refer to this period. The United States is definitely very politically correct concerning the Christmas period—compared to the UK especially—and I think that if we renamed this article to "Christmas season" you'd get a lot of debate and argumentation from people about it being POV toward Christianity, and it would turn into a kerfuffle not unlike with what we had regarding BCE/CE vs BC/AD. Since discussion here has been stable since the change to "Christmas and holiday season" way back in 2007, I think we should leave well enough alone. Crumpled Fire (talk) 18:29, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for the further detail. The Ngram certainly suggests Festive Season would be a bad choice: it would work for the UK, but seemingly not worldwide. Whilst there is a good argument that political correctness should not be considered by Wikipedia, if Americans have changed their usage because of political correctness, then Wikipedia might reflect it also (the whole point is that Wikipedia reflects reliable sources). The ambiguity and regionalism of Holiday season prevents it from being the underlying title, though. I can say that there are hardly any similar worries in the UK: any such comments are treated more as jokes or parodies of the loony left. This might just be an occasion where, even though the title is concise, it is the best in the given situation. 86.158.182.56 (talk) 19:45, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the reasons given above. Dougweller (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Holiday Season

The archived move discussion above contains a variety of links that seek to support the claim that the term 'Holiday Season' is widely used through the English speaking world. But those links appear to be just the random unresearched results of a Google query. Having examined them it is clear they do not suport this claim at all.

The first is just a list of all the school holidays, the expression 'holiday season' is used there to refer to any school holiday and there is no reference to Christmas at all.

The second is just a website for a travel agent called Seasons in which the expression 'Seasons holidays' occurs.

The third is just a list of holidays, no mention of 'holiday season' at all.

The fourth is just a link back to the original Wiki page (talk about a circular argument).

The fifth makes mention of the 'winter holiday season', in the UK this expression simply disambiguates beween the winter holiday season and the summer holiday season. Again there is no reference to Christmas at all.

And so on. Not one of these links contains a single usage of the expression 'holiday season' in the North American sense of being synonymous with the extended Christmas period.

The issue is that the expression 'holiday season' is used variously. In the UK it is used to refer explicitly to either the summer holiday season or the winter holiday season, (as in the UK our longest holidays are in the summer). In US and Canada the term 'holiday season' on its own refers specifically to the Christmas holiday season whereas in the UK and Australia this is not the case. That the term 'holiday season' is used in North American media exported to the UK, Australia and New Zealand has no bearing since that does not mean the expression has local usage.

Consequently the topic should be called 'Christmas holiday season' and the explanation should make clear that this season extends beyond the official Christmas period and that it is refered to as simply the 'holiday season' in North America. Neutrino Sunset (talk) 15:56, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose I have never heard it called "Christmas holiday season". Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:41, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
  • This Google Ngram is what I was referring to in the edit summary, it clearly shows the prominence of holiday season over festive season, and its eclipsing of Christmas season in the late 1990s within the entire English corpus. I have no objections to the fact that "holiday season" is not nearly as prominent in Australasia or Europe, or even that its use there is a result of American export, but it's clear that it has risen in prominence to such a large degree that it eclipses Christmas season within the past 2 decades. Whether that is because of American media influence is irrelevant; it merely establishes its prominent notability as a term to refer to this season. Calling this article "Christmas holiday season" defies the point, the reason the "and" is there is because it is called both the Christmas season and the holiday season primarily, "Christmas holiday season" is redundant. Crumpled Fire (talk) 08:57, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
  • The fact that the words 'holiday' and 'season' occur together a large number of times does not mean that throughout the English speaking world it is a synonym for Christmas or the Christmas season in the way that it is in North America. In the UK (and I believe the rest of Europe and Australia) neither the expression 'holiday season' nor 'the holidays' has any connotations with Christmas at all.
"I have no objections to the fact that 'holiday season' is not nearly as prominent in Australasia or Europe" It isn't that this meaning for this expression isn't as prominent, it doesn't exist at all. Holiday season simply doesn't mean Christmas over here in the UK. Since I have lived here for 45 years I really don't understand what gives you cause to disbelieve me on this point.
"...it merely establishes its prominent notability as a term to refer to this season". But you haven't cited anything that establishes this prominent notability. As already pointed out just because the expression 'holiday season' is used more than 'Christmas season' doesn't in any way indicate that 'holiday season' means the same thing as 'Christmas season' does it?
The terms "summer holiday season" and "winter holiday season" have common usage in the UK (and elsewhere) so using an ngram on the term 'holiday season' will obviously capture all that usage (which has nothing to do with Christmas) too won't it? So interpreting that as an indication of how widespread the term 'holiday season' is used to mean Christmas would clearly be logically fallacious then wouldn't it? Neutrino Sunset (talk) 14:01, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
In the UK, people say "the holidays" to mean when the kids have time off school in July and August. —  Cliftonian (talk)  14:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
You've made a grave error. You've missed the conjunction. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:17, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, are you talking to me? —  Cliftonian (talk)  15:19, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
No. I indented only to the second level. That implies I was responding to the anon. The anon has been assuming that the article is called "Christmas holiday season", which is obviously not the case. This article is about both the Christmas season and the "holiday season", which is clearly an Americanism. Sorry if I confused you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
Ah, okay, sorry about that. Yes, I agree with Walter. —  Cliftonian (talk)  15:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't think so. I'm not assuming that the article is called "Christmas holiday season" at all, because if you reread my commment that's what I'm suggesting that it should be called. You make the point that this article being about "Christmas and the holiday season" means the entire article is clearly an Americanism, yet this is exactly what is not made clear at all.
In North America there is only one 'holiday season', at Christmas, which is why there the expression 'holiday season' unambiguously overlaps with the Christmas season. Elsewhere the expression 'holiday season' can refer to either the winter holiday season or the summer holiday season. Yet this article does not encompass any non-Christmas meaning of holiday season, which is preceisely why the current title only makes sense at all in the North American context. Changing the title to "Christmas holiday season" might not be using an expression that has as many ngram hits as 'holiday season' alone, but it does at least make sense everywhere, which I personally think is by far the more important consideration.
Note that I'm not suggesting that the expressions 'holiday season' or 'the holidays' be removed from the article at all, just that it be made clear that these are a purely North American usage.Neutrino Sunset (talk) 10:31, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
It's not entirely an Americanism. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:19, 9 December 2015 (UTC)
Yesterday you stated, and I quote "This article is about both the Christmas season and the "holiday season", which is clearly an Americanism." Now you're saying "It's not entirely an Americanism". Which is it? Over the course of this discussion half a dozen commenters from different places have expressed the view that it clearly is an Americanism, and no evidence that withstands scrutiny has been presented to demonstrate that it is not. It seems pretty cut and dried to me.Neutrino Sunset (talk) 12:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
The conjunction joins a possible Americanism, "holiday season", with another term. And I may have missed the remainder of commenters, but I have only seen you, Cliftonian and me talking here. There was an actual move discussion a year ago with a clear destination and clear consensus not to move at that point just above though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:47, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

"Happy Christmas" more common in GB and IR

I have very rarely heard or seen "Happy Christmas" in my time in the UK (living in London) - "Merry Christmas" is the vastly more common wish in my experience. Where is the "Happy Christmas is more common" information gotten from?

I have to agree everyone i know says Merry Christmas in the run up to Christmas in the UK. I would say a minority say "Happy Christmas"

"The alternative "Happy Christmas" gained usage in the late 19th century, and in Great Britain and Ireland is the common wish, rather than "Merry Christmas"."[1]

61.120.205.101 (talk) 07:11, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

The above statement seems to me, as a UK native, to be bizarre and untrue - but, it may be because London is much more cosmopolitan than other parts of Britain, where "Happy Christmas" is widely preferred. The idea that the use of "Happy Christmas" in Britain derives from its use by the Queen is also untrue. Blogs and sources such as this and this make clear that "Happy Christmas" was routinely used (as well as "Merry Christmas") in the 19th century, for instance in "The Night Before Christmas". Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:37, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I agree that "Happy Christmas" is quite uncommon among the native British. For a starters the common season's greeting is "A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year", which doesn't work at all if you've already wished someone a "Happy Christmas". If Happy Christmas is gaining ground though I agree with Ghmyrtle that it's probably more common in London where there are more foreigners than native British. Neutrino Sunset (talk) 17:03, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I find the claim that " "Happy Christmas" is quite uncommon among the native British" to be odd. To my (very British) ears, "Happy Christmas" is at least as common as, and probably more common than, "Merry Christmas". Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:18, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Please provide supporting cites, preferably accademic rather than popular press, for the disputed claims that
* "Happy Christmas" is the predominant use in the UK and Northern Ireland.
* "Happy Christmas" as a salutation is considered to have been introduced into use by Middle Class Victorian attitudes.
Singular uses in literature are not indications of common or popular use, but may indicate first occurrences. Clement Clarke Moore's use is from the Mid 19th Century United States, not Early 19th Century Victorian England, and it is not clearly used as a common salutation. The earliest use of "Happy Christmas" is not the 19th century, but the 1707 F. Shaftoe Narrative, where it is used as "A happy christmas and new year". Additionally, OED informs me that in the 19th century Happy and Merry both had uses where the connotation was being drunk, so it seems dubious a line of origin.
FYI, I live in the UK, and outside London. I do not believe that "Happy Christmas" is the predominant use out in these uncivilised xenophobic wilds. Going over a sample of Christmas Idents and Continuity from past ITV and BBC broadcasts, I even suspect that it's reversed, with those in London much more likely to use Happy Christmas as their personal preference. There's no sign at all that there's any special preference in the UK for using "Happy Christmas". So it's an Alternative use, but not the predominant one as far as I can tell. --Barberio 18:09, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
Just to clarify... You claimed, in your edit, that "The phrase "Happy Christmas" was popularised as an alternative in the mid 20th century following reports that Queen Elizabeth II preferred "Happy Christmas" for reasons of promoting sobriety." You justified that by reference to this article. But, the article does not claim what you said it claims. It says: "That change in meaning [of "merry"] is apparently viewed with disfavour by Queen Elizabeth II, who wishes her subjects a 'happy' rather than 'merry' Christmas in her annual Christmas broadcasts. The idea of a modern-day merry England is presumably unwelcome at the palace.". Setting aside the question of the reliability of the source, it simply does not support your claim that ""Happy Christmas" was popularised as an alternative in the mid 20th century." Also, it does not support the claims that ""Merry Christmas" is the vastly more common wish", or that " "Happy Christmas" is quite uncommon among the native British", which are unsupported by evidence and contrary to my experience.
But, the discussion here is going somewhat off track. There are sources that state that both "Happy Christmas" and "Merry Christmas" are used by British people. The previous (and current) wording states: "The alternative "Happy Christmas" gained usage in the late 19th century, and in Great Britain and Ireland is the common wish, rather than "Merry Christmas". One reason may be the Victorian middle class influence in attempting to separate wholesome celebration of the Christmas season from public insobriety and associated asocial behaviour, at a time when merry also meant "intoxicated" – Queen Elizabeth II is said to prefer "Happy Christmas" for this reason."
I am quite prepared to reword this, to replace "...in Great Britain and Ireland is the common wish, rather than "Merry Christmas"" with "..in Great Britain and Ireland is a common wish, as is "Merry Christmas"." Incidentally, referring to people in "uncivilised xenophobic wilds" is not funny. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_and_holiday_season#Merry_Christmas_and_Happy_Christmas

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Happy Holidays" preferred by Southern African Americans

See this which sites a poll. Doug Weller talk 18:36, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

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History of the term Happy Holidays

American use of the term "Happy Holidays" as a substitute for "Merry Christmas" dates back at least to the 1950s[1] and was a common phrase relating to the Christmas season at least going back to the 1890s.[2]

  1. ^ Fisher, Aileen (1951). The Big Book of Christmas. Baker's Plays. p. 147. ISBN 9780874409741.
  2. ^ Bennett, Priscilla (1890). "Preparations for the Holidays: The Children's Christmas Party". Good Housekeeping, Volume 10. Clark W. Bryan & Company. p. 81.

I've replaced this material based on WP:ORIGINAL interpretation of WP:PRIMARY sources with a more reliably-sourced estimate from a recent New York Times article. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:14, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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Affect vs effect

Long ago, a sentence was added to this article which used the verb "effects". Last year, this was changed to "affects". Today, I changed it back to "effects", and this edit changed it back to "affects" again: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christmas_and_holiday_season&oldid=prev&diff=816510912

The sentence in the article is:

After the visit from the Ghosts of Christmas (affects/effects) his transformation, Scrooge exclaims; "I am as merry as a school-boy. A merry Christmas to everybody!"

The relevant definition of "affect" on Wiktionary is "to influence or alter", while the relevant definition of "effect" is "to make or bring about; to implement". Presumably, the article meant to say that the Ghosts of Christmas bring about Scrooge's transformation, not that they influence or alter his transformation. Therefore, "effects" seems to be the right word here. I'm not going to re-re-revert the page, but I'd appreciate it if someone else would. --Tanner Swett (talk) 20:42, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Do not rely on Wiktionary alone. http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/affect-versus-effect states In this case, as a the word is being used as a verb and so "affect" is correct. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:56, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

That same article also states: 'Effect can be used as a verb that essentially means "to bring about," or "to accomplish”' (http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/affect-versus-effect?page=3). Scrooge's transformation was certainly brought about or accomplished, so "effects" is the correct word here, in my opinion. Tanner Swett (talk) 03:16, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

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Moscow section

Just as a heads up to the editors. I was a little surprised at the claim of the mayor of Moscow making decorations mandatory in 2002. Other than the one page linked in the footnote (which has been removed from their site, but archive.is has a copy) and one WaPo op-ed I can't find any evidence this actually happened. Russia is weird, but is it really that weird? 50.0.128.134 (talk) 07:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Inaccurate claim that "festive season" isn't used in North America

I'd hoped that pointing out there were North American sources using the term was enough for the claim to be dropped, but evidently not. See "Eight ways to survive (and even enjoy!) the festive season" as a Canadian example. Or "Christmas in Canada in the Canadian Encyclopedia.[http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/christmas-in-canada/ Or a newspaper article from last month in a New York paper.[1] Or an American university press book.[2] Or an Associated Press article.[3] That should be enough to show it's used. Doug Weller talk 14:50, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

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The article should be moved to Christmas season

An article about the Christmas season, a global phenomenon, ought to have a global perspective. However, already the title is heavily US-centric, and almost 50% of the lead discusses a local US debate over whether to refer to Christmas as "holiday" to accomodate the 1% or so in that country who celebrate Hanukkah instead and the even smaller minority who celebrate Kwanzaa. Such a discussion would be ok for an article about a season in the United States, but certainly not for the article on the Christmas season as a global phenomenon, which is observed by billions of people worldwide. Therefore, this article should be moved to Christmas season. There is no doubt that Christmas season, not "Christmas and holiday season," is the WP:COMMONNAME of this season globally. Additionally, in my opinion, an in-depth article about Christmas and holiday season in the United States could elaborate more on that country and its internal debates and issues, to a greater extent than would be appropriate in the global article. --Tataral (talk) 08:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Not likely to happen. Last poll was at Requested move 14 December 2014. See the rationale there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:27, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Um, says who? I find an old unrelated (it did not relate to my proposal to split the article) discussion from 2014 with relatively few participants and no convincing rationale for this US-centric and WP:COMMONNAME non-conforming title, and I note that this problem has indeed been raised by several others before. The title of the main article on the Christmas season as a global phenomenon is chosen on the basis of its WP:COMMONNAME globally, as demonstrated by reliable sources, not a local debate in just one country on how to accommodate a tiny minority in that country who object to the word Christmas for some reason. I don't even find an attempt to demonstrate that "Christmas and holiday season" is the season's WP:COMMONNAME. --Tataral (talk) 10:08, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
According to this n-gram the present name is perfect (as if Santa's elves carved it out of North Pole ice and tied it with a candy cane taffy apple bow). Randy Kryn (talk) 10:25, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Lol. Nice n-gram. The same time period has two different names, thus the current title. Speaking frankly this appears to me to be either religiously or politically motivated given the comment about accommodating a tiny minority "who object to the word Christmas" (why preferring one word means you object to another confuses me). But even the Trump store website says "Holiday gift guide",[4] not Christmas gift guide, as do Trump Hotels which use the term "holiday season"[5], so maybe it isn't a tiny minority. Doug Weller talk 12:54, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
Question: Does "the holiday season" in Google Books necessarily refer to the Christmas season? It would seem plausible to me that many of those results could refer to other seasons, particularly the summer holiday season; in addition, most references to the Christmas season are likely to refer to it as just "Christmas", which wouldn't be the case for the "holiday" alternative (the exact phrase "the Christmas season" is more typical of a Wikipedia title than normal language, in which "season" would be implied by just using the word Christmas). A comparison would need to exclude references to other seasons such as the summer holiday season, and to include references to just "Christmas" that referred to Christmas as a season (which is almost certainly the most predominant usage of that word). Albeit not perfect, this n-gram is probably much, much closer to the truth, and it illustrates that there is one and only one WP:COMMONNAME in a global sense, and possibly a number of much more obscure alternative/local names. Strictly speaking, if we were to go by WP:COMMONNAME, Christmas (season) would probably be a more correct title than a title including the phrase "Christmas season", which is probably only chosen as a natural disambiguation because some editors prefer to avoid parentheses.
I have no idea why you bring up Trump (I've spent much of the past two years arguing for the inclusion of material critical of him and his policies); I don't consider his stores to be reliable sources. We can't base title decisions on anecdotal stuff like that, and I don't see why Trump's companies should get to dictate the title of an article about Christmas. The current title, speaking frankly, appears to me to be both blatantly political and especially blatantly US-centric, a problem frequently encountered in Wikipedia articles and which I've frequently criticized over the past decade. The season is definitely not known as "the holiday season" in any European country (any European would probably wonder "which holiday?" And some might think that the phrase is offensively reminiscent of Soviet language during the Stalin era in which the Soviet government attempted to ban Christmas), nor in any other country on the planet that I know of, and there is no evidence that usage of "the holiday season" is anywhere near the level that would justify treating it as an equally widespread term as Christmas. The possible minority usage, by Trump's companies and the likes, in just one country, out of all the world's countries, doesn't merit inclusion in the article title or half the lead section in an article about the Christmas season as a global phenomenon. But it's typical of the same sentiment that Trump espouses about "America First". --Tataral (talk) 20:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
  • You misunderstand my comment and that's probably my fault. I know you aren't pro-Trump. I certainly wasn't suggesting that Trump's companies should determine what we name this article. However, it does seem to a popular term in the English-speaking world, plenty of sources for Canada and Australia and New Zealand, and this is the English language Wikipedia. What non English-speaking countries call it is irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 14:15, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Considering that most European countries are not English speaking countries, I fail to see how what they call anything is relevant to the naming of any article on the English Wikipedia.You wouldn't ask what the United States calls something when deciding on the name of a French article, would you? --Khajidha (talk) 19:59, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
If it's on the English project, Americans would have a say. As for this article, the original N-Gram is enough to support its current location. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
By "French article" I meant "article on the French Wikipedia". --Khajidha (talk) 22:25, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

The n-gram that I provided[6] does in my opinion cast some serious doubt on whether the term "holiday season" is in fact used to an extent that would merit treating it as equal (incl in the title) to the term Christmas in English language sources – which is a different matter than just mentioning it in the article as a term sometimes used in the US (which would be perfectly ok). The first n-gram mentioned in this discussion has serious flaws, as pointed out, and isn't really of much value. A third n-gram, "Christmas,holiday", shows that Christmas alone is used more than twice as much as the word holiday alone, even though the word holiday alone would in most cases probably not even refer to the Christmas season, but any holiday of the year.[7] Taken together, the various n-grams demonstrate quite clearly that Christmas is the common name in English language sources. --Tataral (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Except that you've stacked the deck by comparing the single word Christmas to the phrase "the holiday season". Many of those uses of Christmas would be about the specific day or would be used in other compounds ("Christmas carols", "Christmas cards", "Christmas stocking", etc). Try this one: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Christmas+season%2C+the+holiday+season&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CChristmas%20season%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cthe%20holiday%20season%3B%2Cc0 --Khajidha (talk) 16:30, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
My point exactly. "Christmas" matches "Christmas carol", "Christmas card", "Christmas choir", "Christmas concert", "Christmas conspiracy", "Christmas cookie" and "Christmas countdown" among every other letter of the alphabet. Why not this one instead? It demonstrates the same problem you've presented us with. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:07, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Expressions like "Christmas card" clearly refer to the season. Christmas in general usage commonly refers to the season. People do not normally refer to the season using a wikipediaesque expression like "the Christmas season". Neither n-gram is perfect, but they do demonstrate that Christmas is far, far more common than "holiday season" as the name of the season. --Tataral (talk) 19:59, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
The problem with your new, fourth n-gram is that
  1. Christmas as a season is generally referred to as just Christmas, not "Christmas season". "Christmas card" is one example of this (the term refers to cards pertaining to the season; Christmas as a season with "season" implied); literally nobody[8] calls them "Christmas season cards".
  2. "Holiday season" could just as well refer to the summer holiday season and English speakers from the UK and other places would probably primarily think of the summer holiday season.
You cannot compare an odd, much less commonly used variant of the Christmas alternative to the primary form of the holiday alternative that includes all other holidays of the year to boot. That is indeed stacking the deck. --Tataral (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
You've made my (our) point. Thanks. You've stacked the deck with selective wording. Either that, or you have no clue how NGrams work. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:13, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
I could say the same to you. And in conclusion, it has been clearly demonstrated here that Christmas is the common name of the season. --Tataral (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) That I've made your point or that I don't have a clue how NGrams work? Once again, your lack of precision is a probelm.
The answer to both is no. The point is that "Christmas" is a compound word and it will flag occurrences of literally hundreds of such instances (a partial list is given by Khajidha and a slightly different one given by me above) to bolster your numbers. That's why my example is the same as yours: it returns partial matches instead of whole word matches.
I agree that people will use the term "Christmas" alone to represent the season, but your NGram does not represent that in a meaningful way.
In either case, even if it were infinitely more common to use "Christmas" to refer to the season, the fact that "holiday season" is used at all, and is the second term in the article name, are enough to convince me that the article is in the correct place and that no move is required. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:24, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
That's funny, everyone I know sends Christmas cards to celebrate the particular day, not the season, so I'm not sure how you get the idea that "Christmas cards" inherently refer to the "Christmas season". And people most especially do not hang "Christmas stockings" for "the season", they are hung to be used specifically for receiving gifts on Christmas day. --Khajidha (talk) 21:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
That is funny. Christmas is twelve days, not just one! That definitely qualifies as a season. And my family and I exchange gifts on Christmas Eve. Finally, the time most Americans use to celebrate "Christmas" is actually Advent. So WP:DROP it for another year. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:34, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

As it's becoming timely again, just a reminder that it's a waste of time trying to get this article renamed to something sensible. American editors will not accept that this is a WP:ENGVAR issue relating to the subtly different meaning of 'holiday' in different places, and that their culture is not global, and that 'holiday season' is a post WW2 US neologism. There have been umpteen attempts to sort this out in the past and they've all hit a brick wall. --Ef80 (talk) 16:02, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

The icing on the cake

Existing caption: A Christmas cake with a "merry Christmas" greeting

A couple of days ago I changed the caption of this photograph to include upper-casing of "Merry Christmas" ("merry Christmas" was already in the caption in quote marks) and was reverted per sentence case. Since the words are a direct quote and include quote marks, and 'Merry' is capitalized on the cake's frosting, "Merry" could and should be upper-cased for accuracy. I rest my case (and grab a fork). Randy Kryn (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

You are correct. It is not a merry Christmas greeting - such as "Be of good cheer, my dear fellow. Have one of my delicious mince pies. Ho, ho, ho!". It is a greeting of the words "Merry Christmas", and should be capitalised wherever it comes in the sentence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
A plum pudding for you, and may Santa bring you things that will make your smile larger and your winter warmer. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:31, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
It is a "Merry Christmas" greeting mid-sentence and quoted, it's not another kind of greeting, but since you're both in agreement that the capitalization is incorrect, I won't push back further. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:15, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
And to you, kind sir, wishes for a twelve-dish Christmas Eve supper and a copy of Zooey Deschanel singing "Baby, It's Cold Outside". Randy Kryn (talk) 23:32, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

It is not April 1st, so why this joke of a title?

Seriously? I am not religious, but have never in my life seen this holiday referred to in this ridiculous way, Europe or USA. I would advise whoever is pushing this heavily biased narrative to calm down. The whole world does not need to perceive the world the way that you do, nor does truth, tradition, culture and knowledge need to be "upgraded" so that you feel happy about it. Please revert to original title. Regards from Italy where nobody uses this phraseology. 79.62.227.131 (talk) 19:58, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Really? I don't think you've spent much time in the US, or English-speaking countries. The season that the church calendar refers to as Advent is commonly referred to as either the "Christmas season" or the "holiday season" as it overlaps with several holidays, particularly in the United States, where it can intersect with Thanksgiving day. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:34, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
Ah, my bad, I see there is article for Christmas. Google redirected me to this one.. So it's a Google bias. 79.62.227.131 (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
No surprise on the left wing politically correct google bias. 2600:8805:5802:3900:D883:CD11:9687:6BD8 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:31, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
Google's aim is to get as many people as possible to use its products so you will see their ads. I'm not sure how having a "left wing politically correct...bias" would help achieve that goal. But is you think so.... HiLo48 (talk) 01:53, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

claim that merry meaning drunk is an archaic term

'at a time when merry also meant "intoxicated" – Queen Elizabeth II is said to prefer "happy Christmas" for this reason.' this statement insinuates that merry no longer can be a euphemism for drunk, my british mum often sais 'did you get merry' to mean 'were you drunk' it is not an archaic term as it is claimed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C7:2B88:5700:C53E:434F:8AFB:DBCF (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2019

Hi , I would like to recommend a simple change to please change "fast" to "feast" (because it is a typographical error) in the last sentence of the paragraph entitled === Feast of the Nativity: Christmas ===, shown below:

The earliest suggestions of a fast of Baptism of Jesus on January 6 during the 2nd century comes from Clement of Alexandria, but there is no further mention of such a feast until 361 when Emperor Julian attended a feast on January 6 in the year 361.[1] 67.248.144.94 (talk) 23:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

 Done, good catch, and Happiest of New Year's to you. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:57, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference JBurnett was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Requested move 24 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus  — Amakuru (talk) 11:28, 8 January 2020 (UTC)


Christmas and holiday season → ? – Per WP:AND, this page should be at either Christmas season or Holiday season (both of which redirect here). I don't currently have a strong preference between the 2 right now. Iffy★Chat -- 19:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:39, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Comment. First of all, just to let editors know, we are very likely going to get a large amount of traffic to this article and potentially its talk page as well, because Google's special "Doodles" for Dec. 24 and Dec. 25 in most English-speaking regions link to a search results page for "holiday season", and this article is among the top results; in fact, it is listed twice. I will refrain from voting for the time being, as this article has been request-moved to death over the past many years, and has always resulted in a stalemate. This is usually because American editors, due to their culture, will often refuse the move to Christmas season as being a "Christian POV", and editors from elsewhere will strongly disagree with Holiday season because it is American-centric. I don't think you'll ever see a better name compromise than what we have now. It balances the need to use a common name (i.e. naming it something like "December festive period" would defy WP:COMMONNAME), with the fact that there will likely never be consensus for either Christmas or Holiday due to cultural differences.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 20:38, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
@Crumpled Fire: re "request-moved to death", I can only find one previous RM on this page: § Requested move 14 December 2014 (though there are also a few informal discussions of the name). If you know of any others, would you mind linking them? Colin M (talk) 17:16, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
You're right, I should've been more clear and said that not all "requests" to move were formally made, as per WP:RM. But there have been many discussions about it since, and even prior to, the move to the current title in 2007.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 13:20, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support for separation: Holiday season seems to be too ambiguous to be fixed to the Christmas as various countries and cultures seem to differ on their take on their primary holiday season (e.g. Hannukah, Daeboreum, Ramadan, Chinese New Year, etc.). Chihciboy (talk) 08:28, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support Should separate between Christmas, a holiday, and the holiday season, a period of time. A Magical Badger (talk) 00:34, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per last nominations. The Christmas article, and its many related pages, cover that topic well, and this one augments those. This page focuses on all of the seasonal related religious and secular traditions. "Holiday season" is a common descriptor of the time-period, and it of course highlights and encompasses Christmas (included in the title as the main descriptor) in addition to the others days and longer holidays, which all seem well-defined in this encyclopedic page. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:45, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support The current title is not acceptable. It's not a commonly used name for the topic, but rather an amalgam of two commonly used names. If a topic has more than one commonly used name, we choose one for the title, rather than squishing them together. i.e. we don't use names like Ganges (Ganga), Thomas Wright "Fats" Waller, Chairperson, Chairwoman or Chairman, etc. As for which name to use for the new title, I guess I have a very slight preference for Christmas season > Holiday season on the basis of WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Level of usage of the two terms in books is very close, per ngrams. Google scholar results are also close. It's worth noting that The holidays beats them both pretty handily, but I find that a little too informal and imprecise. Colin M (talk) 17:36, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment It does not matter if the term "Christmas" sounds "Christian-centric" - Christmas Day is the name of a public holiday that is observed in at least the key English-speaking countries, and this is the English-speaking version of Wikipedia. William Harristalk 10:44, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Christmas already has a page. This is about many other occasions celebrated during this period. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I agree that two alternatives should not appear in the same page title. Would Support "Christmas holiday period", "Christmas period", "Christmas holiday season" or similar. At a pinch, if editors don't like "Christmas", then "Festive season". Would Oppose "Holiday season" which in this context is extremely US-centric: "holiday" in many English speaking countries means any non-working day or period. In the UK at least, 'the holidays' is more likely to refer to summer rather than winter holidays. MichaelMaggs (talk) 13:39, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • But we (or at least I) may be in danger of re-running the discussion above. Given that many editors hate "Holiday season" and others equally hate "Christmas season" perhaps "Festive season" might be the least-worst option. Short, simple, and understood everywhere. MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Endorse Festive season (if it comes to that). I doubt anybody hates either name. The present name and topic work well together, and it seems to present the most encyclopedic title. The page covers all of the secular holiday and religious observances in an understandable way, hard to understand why editors would want to change a perfectly fine long-time descriptive title. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Because, as Colin M states above, it's an amalgam of two quite separate titles, not a common expression in its own right. Literally no-one refers to it as the "Christmas and holiday season". MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:50, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
Also, according to the policy WP:AND, titles should "[a]void the use of "and" to combine concepts that are not commonly combined in reliable sources". MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
  • No need to change it but the only acceptable alternative I can see is Festive season per User:Randy Kryn. Doug Weller talk 15:58, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment. The obvious compromise title, that would be clear to readers, is Christmas holiday season - that is, dispense with the "and". If a sensible solution like that falls foul of guidelines, it is the guidelines that need to be changed or, in this case, ignored. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Per Ghmyrtle's comments above I would support a change to Christmas holiday season if it comes down to making a move choice. While it's never actually called "Christmas and holiday season" anywhere outside Wikipedia, I've seen it called "Christmas holiday season" plenty of times before, and such a title would satisfy the American need to call it "holiday" season, the need to distinguish which type of holiday season it is, and also recognize the international predominance of "Christmas season".— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:02, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
As mentioned above, I'd be fine with that. MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:20, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
@Crumpled Fire and MichaelMaggs: I can't understand how people can't find multiple examples of its use. A general Google search suggests it's used in both the US and the UK.[9] Not a huge number of times (Google gives ridiculous numbers sometimes) but it's used. It's not new either, I see it was used in 1956 by the B&O railroad.[10] Doug Weller talk 16:58, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
  • oppose (added to above) "Christmas holiday season", which is another way of collapsing the present name to 'Christmas season'. The present name describes Christmas season, which is fine, as well as the literally hundreds of other December holidays. New Year's Eve is not Christmas, nor is Hanukkah, or solstice, or Thanksgiving in the U.S., or dozens of other celebrated events which find inclusion in the words "and holiday season". The present name covers them all. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose It is used frequently online, and we have derivative articles on this project (see list of Christmas and holiday season parades). While it may go against WP:AND, the term is common ((WP:COMMONNAME) with hatnotes and redirects, readers will find this article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:47, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Merge with Christmas season

I put these tags in the articles before I read the above discussion. Now I'm not sure into which article the merge should be made. Anyway, apart from the name discussion, the two articles seem to cover the same phenomenon. — Sebastian (talk) 06:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete/merge into Christmas season. (see this article's new AfD)
Comments—The term "(winter) holiday season" violates WP:NEO and is merely a politically correct alternative of the term "Christmas season". Use of the term is notable only in the United States, and is usually used so as "not to exclude anyone during the commercialized Christmas". As someone pointed out above, the mere fact that this so-called season doesn't include such actual winter holidays as Valentine's Day, Chinese New Year or St. Patrick's Day proves that the "winter holiday season" is only used as a completely secular, generic reference to Christmastime. I've even seen "After-Holiday sales" on December 26, and of course all the "holiday commercials" stop airing after Christmas Day, even though New Year's Day (supposedly part of the holiday season) is still a week away. A simple solution here would to introduce the Christmas season article with "Christmas season, also known as winter holiday season". It's ridiculous to have two articles about the same thing—look at the "holiday tree" term being used in the US...these neologisms are merely politically correct "status quo" euphemisms and are not merited to have an article. But aside from my personal convictions, the point is that if you read WP:NEO you will see that this article surely violates it, try to find "holiday season" in a dictionary. This article is about as productive as creating a new article called Holiday (holiday) and having it be about all the secular aspects of Christmas, since all the media often refers to "Christmas" as "Holiday".
Here's the precise paragraph from WP:NEO that outlines the fact that the research conducted for creation for this article is not sufficient for creating an article and thus should be removed:
"An editor's personal observations and research (e.g. finding blogs and books that use the term) are insufficient to support use of (or articles on) neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material (which is explicitly prohibited by the original research policy). To paraphrase Wikipedia:No original research: If you have research to support the inclusion of a term in the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal or reputable news outlet and then document your work in an appropriately non-partisan manner."— OLP 1999 04:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The result of the discussion was keep. As a consequence, I think we should:

  • change "Christmas season" into a disambiguation between the two meanings (and Advent),
  • make "Christmastide" the title for the page on the liturgical meaning, and
  • move the first half of Christmas season to Winter holiday season. — Sebastian (talk) 05:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • A very quick and superficial scan for sources reveals (example example) that the part of the Christian liturgical year is indeed known as "Christmastide". This was in fact the original title, in 2004, of Christmas season. So I agree. Let's take out the two paragraphs about shopping and films, rename it back to Christmastide, and have a disambiguation at Christmas season, whose meaning differs between Christmastide and Advent in any event it appears. Note that much of the content in those two paragraphs to be removed is already here in better — sourced — form. What isn't already here, I'd like add here only if we can base it upon sources, as everything else here is, rather than simply merging in as-is. Uncle G 12:27, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I have added to the main article the phrase "(mainly in North American usage)" to elucidate the use of 'holiday season' for the time around Christmas, etc. Note that, in British English, the 'holiday season' almost invariably means the summer months, and 'winter holiday season' (if used at all) means time to go skiing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pawebster (talk • contribs) 15:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

I knew there had to be a reason why this article was titled after a name for the winter holiday season that's not what could be considered common by the most generous definition of the word. Tyrekecorrea (talk) 19:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Revisiting title discussion

I know that there has been much conversation on this topic already, to as of yet no avail, but there is a reason why this topic keeps coming up: for starters, the current title is just extremely awkward, no matter what your preference is, but more saliently, in the States, the phrase "Christmas Season" is often considered borderline offensive (it may be kinda silly, but it is what it is), and this title doesn't fix any problems with that. While my family has christian roots, and I celebrate Christmas (secularly), I would prefer to see this have a title that does not include any reference to Christmas.

My understanding is that the main alternative name "Holiday Season" is opposed because the name is not in common use outside of North America, and is furthermore ambiguous due to the phrase referring to the summer holidays in the UK. "Winter Holiday Season" is also considered unacceptable since this season coincides with the Australian summer. Any other name is considered unacceptable, since it is desired that a commonly used name is used as the name of the article, and while there do exist other names that see occasional use in English, they are not sufficiently common to serve as the title of this article.

Let's revisit the objections to the title "Holiday Season": first, there is the concern that the name does not have a neutral point-of-view, since the name is used mainly in North America. However, we are clearly in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation: any acceptable title (*including the current title*) violates the principle of neutral POV, so we should strive to use the least POV title available. As I have mentioned before, the phrase "Christmas season" (and "Christmas and holiday season" by extension) is considered borderline offensive in the States, and the name "Winter holiday season" is absurd from the POV of the Southern Hemisphere, which also celebrates the season. In comparison, the main reason "Holiday season" is objected to is because the turn of phrase is mostly used in a specific part of the world, but even where it is not used, it is neither offensive nor absurd, thereby making it the most neutral POV option of the names that are recognizable as commonly used names. But there is still the problem of ambiguity.

As mentioned before, in the UK, "Holiday season" is chiefly understood to refer to a different season, which is celebrated in the summer months. If only Wikipedia had a policy on how to handle ambiguous titles, then we would have a perfect title for this page. Oh that's right, we do have a policy on disambiguation. Based on this, I argue that "Holiday season (end of year)" is the correct title for this page, avoiding a reference to Christmas that is considered offensive in the States, avoiding a reference to winter that is absurd in places where it's summer during this season, and is not ambiguous for people who understand "holiday season" to refer to a different time of the year. (As an aside, some smartass in an earlier discussion asked "but if New Year's is the start of the year, doesn't that contradict 'end of year'?"; but of course, the start of any cycle coincides with the end of the previous cycle, so there is no contradiction. Even considering Christmastide, which doesn't end until the middle of January, 'end of year' should be understood as pointing to the rough time of this season, not the exact boundaries of it) Ramzuiv (talk) 20:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

I suspect that when you refer to something being "not in common use outside of North America", you really mean in Canada and the USA. HiLo48 (talk) 02:46, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
"End of year holiday season"? "Year-end holiday season"? "December/January holiday season"? "December and new-year holiday season"? "End of year festive season"? "Year-end festive season"? "December/January festive season"? "December and new-year festive season"? MichaelMaggs (talk) 21:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Yet removing "Christmas" (And not capitalizing proper nouns like "Christian") is offensive to many as well.
What do reliable sources call it? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Where? Here in Australia? New Zealand? the UK? India? HiLo48 (talk) 03:20, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
All English-language sources would qualify. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:05, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Repeating Crumpled Fire's comment from the December 2019 RM: "I don't think you'll ever see a better name compromise than what we have now. It balances the need to use a common name (i.e. naming it something like "December festive period" would defy WP:COMMONNAME), with the fact that there will likely never be consensus for either Christmas or Holiday due to cultural differences". Randy Kryn (talk) 10:42, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Having reminded myself of the previous discussions, yet again, I agree that the current title is the best available compromise and that there's no point re-opening discussions. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
  • Speaking as the "smartass" who suggested that "End of year" doesn't work because New Year's (and Epiphany/Orthodox Xmas) occur at the beginning of the year, I stand by my statement. OP's suggestion of "Holiday season (end of year)" sounds artificially forced as it is, it's even worse that it's an objectively incorrect description of the season. To go from a title that references both of the most common names for this period around the world ("Christmas season", "holiday season") to something that omits New Year's by definition despite the fact it's almost universally considered part of this season, isn't a good idea in my view. The current title has been stable for a time spanning three decades, I continue to think we should leave well enough alone.
Also, I object to the notion that it's considered "offensive" to refer to this season as the Christmas season in America... do you have any sources for this? One other reason "Christmas season" is a strong contender for the title is because it's universally known as that term worldwide (including in the United States), unlike "holiday season". While some Americans may object to its naming as "Christmas season", they understand that term to refer to the season described in this article. This is a stronger argument for keeping "Christmas" than some vague, unsubstantiated notion of "offensiveness", especially since Wikipedia is not censored to prevent offense.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 06:05, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

hyperlink mistake in 'Happy holidays' subsection

Hi! There's a sentence in the 'Happy holidays' subsection that goes '"Happy holidays" has been variously characterized by critics as politically correct, materialistic [..]' with materialistic linking to Materialism (the philosophical notion) as opposed to Economic materialism (valuing of consumer goods). would fix that myself if the article wasn't locked but it is so raising it here. cheers 93.105.177.79 (talk) 12:42, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done (by Ohnoitsjamie. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:31, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

"Lead too short" template

@Dimadick recently added the "Lead too short" template to this article, and I find myself agreeing. Originally, the entire "Definition" segment of the article was just part of the intro/lede. I wouldn't be opposed to reverting back to that style, to correct the lede's inadequacy.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 20:40, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Nor would I. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:59, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Request to disambiguating "festive season"

It seemed like, at the moment, "festive season" redirects to this page. However, there are a lot of places out there where the phrase "festive season" does not refer to Christmas but instead either refer to their own festive, or used as a general phrase to refer to all of the different festive seasons in a year especially in multicultural country that celebrates multiple festive seasons in a year, including but not limited to the Chinese New Year festive and its week-long holiday, the Eid al-Fitr festive and its week-long holiday and month-long celebration, the Eid al-Adha holiday, the Vesak holiday, the Thaipusam holiday, the Diwali holiday, the Kaamatan holiday, the Gawai Dayak holiday, the Songkran holiday, the Golden Week, and a lot more. As such, I want to request a disambiguation so that people who want to know about the general festive season that's not specific to Christmas could find their way to such article that explains it. --MNH48 (talk) 19:02, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

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