Talk:Eddie Irvine

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A link to the front page of a formula one news site is NOT a source.


I always heard that Eddie Irvine was Irish, and I guess every F1-related media hasalways credited him as such... Why was it changed, all of a sudden?

Because he's from Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom, and not from the Republic of Ireland. To the best of my recollection he raced under the Union Flag, not the Irish one despite holding his FIA Superlicence under his Irish driving licence. 4u1e 17:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Going by the NI page, he would be entitled to claim Irish nationality. He seems to be listed in official results under UK though, which suggests he didn't. Hope the slightly revised wording I've put in is better. 4u1e 17:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This article is completely inaccurate.. I changed it but someone else has reverted back to the earlier revision. Eddie did not race under the union flag, he raced for NORTHERN IRELAND under the Ulster Flag. After he had his first podium finish while racing for Jordan, the Tricolour of Ireland was displayed behind him; as was extensively reported in the media of the time, his family received death threats from Loyalist Terrorists so he reverted to an Ulster flag. Irvine, who lives in Dublin and Los Angeles, holds an Irish passport and not a British one. Tellingly, he explained in a magazine interview that he was delighted to have Irish citizenship as it made it easier to travel around the world, given the ill feeling in some countries toward Britain. Also, if you google him you will find copious references to his life in Dublin. This article is all wrong.

OK. Let's try and get to the bottom of this.

  • I am confident that Irvine never appeared in F1 under the Ulster flag - FIA rules don't allow for it, the driver's nationality matches their passport and you can't have a 'Northern Irish' passport.
  • He could have appeared under an Irish flag in theory - although born in NI he is entitled to take up Irish citizenship. However, he appears in all official FIA results as a UK driver and under the Union flag. See Official F1 results for 1999 season. See also Still from official F1 feed with Union flag clearly shown.
  • You may be right about the first Jordan podium, although you need to be careful, because the Jordan team did race under the Irish flag, in some seasons at least, so we need to be sure that it was a flag for Irvine and not for the team. I believe that there was also one occasion on which Irvine was mistakenly given the Irish flag.
  • The magazine article is interesting though. Can you give details - in particular, what date? As I understand it he could claim Irish nationality, as he was (obviously!) born before 2004. Could the answer perhaps be that he has taken Irish citizenship since he left F1? In that case the UK flag would remain (because that's the one he appeared under in F1), but the article should read something like 'Eddie Irvine is an Irish former Formula One racing driver. He was born in Northern Ireland and competed in Formula One as a British citizen. In (insert year here) he took up Irish citizenship'. Very happy to do that if we can locate references.
  • I know he lives in Dublin, but that has no relevance to his nationality, either now or when he was racing. Many F1 drivers live in Monaco, but there hasn't been a Monagesque (sp.?) since Olivier Beretta in the early 1990s.

Hopefully if we work on this together we can get to a satisfactory compromise. Cheers. 4u1e 08:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I'm guessing I'm dealing with one person here for the recent changes, but you haven't got an account and seem to be editing from multiple IP addresses. This makes it difficult for us to work together on this. I'd recommend you get an account, but if not could you at least sign yourself with some kind of tally? (e.g. in the same way that I would put '4u1e' if I couldn't log in). Thanks. 4u1e 08:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, we could just state where he is form from and not worry about nationality. ie: Edmund "Eddie" Irvine (b. November 10, 1965, Newtownards, Northern Ireland) is a former Formula One racing driver. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I've got no problem with that in the intro text but we need to put something in the F1 driver infobox to maintain consistency with all the other articles. He also needs a nationlity to be listed in race and championship results. As I say, I'm almost 100% certain that he raced as a UK driver throughout his career, so this should be the Union Flag. Something else to consider is that while I'm happy to follow your suggestion for the text, there will always be passing editors who, according to personal preference, will edit it to read British/Irish etc etc. If we can give a really specific definition, with references, the chances of this are reduced somewhat. Cheers. 4u1e 09:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Right, see what you mean about the infobox. Yes, he raced as a British driver and the Union Flag was used for all his podiums accept once and that was a mistake if I remember right. The Ulster Banner was never used. Stu ’Bout ye! 10:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is something that could become a bit of a problem, as it's spreading to other articles - see Tom Pryce. I think that we must be careful not to allow any exceptions to the British flag in the infobox because otherwise we'll have non-verified local flags appearing all over the place. As has been said, he raced under the British flag and we should use it in the infobox. At the same time, I think it's very important to clarify in the first paragraph where Irvine was from - his "ethnicity" if you like - and also mention if he's taken Irish citizenship since he stopped racing (with sources of course). Bretonbanquet 20:05, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
It tends to go in waves. We could propose at WP:F1 that the standard wording for all UK drivers should be "X is a British (former) Formula One racing driver from (England/Northern Ireland/Scotland/Wales)." And add that the nationality should be UK with the Union Flag in the infobox and race results. Which seems to cover the main options. Sadly Andy Priaulx never really made it to F1, or we'd have a different problem again. Actually in his case, he's not technically British, is he? I don't know how passports work for the Channel Islands, which I believe are dependencies of the crown or some such phrase. 4u1e 21:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd go along with your standard wording proposal, it sounds pretty fair. As for the Channel Islands, I'm glad we don't have that problem :o) Do they have a Channel Islands passport? Same goes for Isle of Man, I suppose. Bretonbanquet 21:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Apart from Wikipedia and its mirrors, I can't find a source to say he has taken Irish citizenship. I have both Republic of Ireland and UK passports, but I'm not a citizen of the Republic. Stu ’Bout ye! 09:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

We'll go to the version suggested above then - which also seems to be supported so far at WP:F1. 4u1e 12:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


Surely we could do with a better image of Eddie Irvine than we currently have? --Mouse Nightshirt 18:45, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's not easily identifiable as Irvine. Surely there are better ones available.--jeanne (talk) 14:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Bono or Chris Rea?[edit]

"He is a friend of the U2 frontman Bono, who taught him how to play the guitar."

I thought it was Chris Rea who taught him play guitar. Can somebody confirm it? 15:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Irish or British (part two)[edit]

User:PaddyBriggs has suggested in edits this morning that Eddie Irvine should be described as 'Irish' in the intro, while keeping his nationality as 'British' in the infobox and noting that he is a British citizen. I guess that the logic here is that Eddie self-identifies as Irish, regardless of his nationality - but welcome Paddy's further comments on his reasoning.

I don't agree with this approach, for several reasons. The first is that it breaks with the reasoning behind the longstanding consensus in WP:F1, which is that we stick to passport nationality for reasons of verifiability and consistency with official results. The second is that readers with less knowledge of the history of Britain and Ireland will come across the page, see this as an inconsistency and edit it according to whatever they feel is logical, either Irish or British. Finally, we don't currently have any evidence that Eddie does self identify as Irish, although such could perhaps be found. What do others think? 4u1e 20 February 2007 11:07

I've edited the article so it states he is from Northern Ireland, full stop. Trying to prove Irish or British citizenship is pointless. The infobox should stay British, as that's who he raced for. Stu ’Bout ye! 11:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no need to prove anything. Eddie is a British citizen (Nationality) and also Irish (ethnicity). Full Stop. Wiki should say so. PaddyBriggs 11:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately Wikipedia does require that we prove things. I've no argument with Eddie's 'Irishness' in the sense you mean Paddy, and I suspect we could even find a reference for him 'self identifying' as Irish somewhere (magazine interview?). Ethnicity is a very slippery concept, and I don't think we should go down that route. I do think that just straight calling him 'Irish' in the lead will cause confusion, though, because some readers will believe that it means nationality, which is not what any of us intend.
The intent of the previous form of words (British driver from Northern Ireland) was to be very precise and acknowledge both his formal nationality and his origins while keeping the material verifiable. I'll be the first to admit that this might not be working very well!
I'm happy to go with Stu's suggestion for now and see if it is any more robust in terms of editors turning Eddie into a citizen of the ROI. I'm almost starting to feel that a section in the main article on his nationality would be interesting, but only if we can find some good sources to reference. 4u1e 20 February 2007 11:45

It needs more clarity. Let me explain. If you are Scottish you are a citizen of the United Kingdom (= British). End of story. If you are "British Isles" Irish you are either a citizen of the UK or you are a citizen of Ireland (sometimes both!). So to say that someone is Irish is important, but insufficient. You need also to identify their nationality. So Clarke, Irvine, Gerry Adams are all Irish but also British. On the other hand Bertie Ahern (for example) is Irish. PaddyBriggs 12:16, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Spot the difference. There should be consistency of style. An encyclopedia is for reporting facts, not for whimsy about whether or not someone self-identifies as Irish, British, Northern Irish, martian or Toblerone.. unless it is particularly relevant to the subject of the article. For example, with Gerry Adams - he has undoubtedly taken an Irish passport and clearly finds avoids being referred to as British. However, the fact is that he is indeed British. Stating it boldly in a Wikipedia article, with no surrounding context however, is probably not a great idea. The context, in the case of Gerry Adams, needs to be explained clearly and carefully. In the case of Eddie Irvine, it does not.

Presumably the other person mentioned is Darren Clarke..? He should also be described in the article as being British - just as with Eddie Irvine. Mention should be made of his Irish ethnicity though, particularly if the golfing world has all-Ireland organisations or competitive teams. --Mal 12:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I feel the infobox relates to his career, so that's where British should be mentioned. Otherwise I think only his place of birth should be mentioned. With Clarke it's a little different, golfers as far as I'm aware compete for Northern Ireland and not the UK. But that's a matter for his talk page. Stu ’Bout ye! 12:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
From the Good Friday Agreement:

(vi) recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

It's not so much a case of self-identification, more a legal right. So if it can be sourced one way or the other, this can be put to bed. One Night In Hackney 15:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

That's the problem, I don't think we are going to find a source that states he considers himself Irish, Northern Irish, British or whatever. So it should just state his place of birth. With the infobox I think British should remain for consitancy with other F1 articles. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

How about this interview from 1995?

But at the end of the day, I’m Irish. I mean, I’ve got a British passport, but if you’re from Ireland, north or south, you’re Irish. And ‘British’ is. . . such a nondescript thing, isn’t it?

And if anyone says they want a post-Good Friday Agreement interview I shall give up in frustration. Oh and I've no problem with the British in the infobox as such as that specifically refers to his F1 career, but I don't think he should be referred to as British apart from that. One Night In Hackney 16:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

We would definitely need a post ............... only kidding. Good find. Yes, British definitely shouldn't be in the main article text, just in the infobox. I'm not sure if we want to add anything in the article about how he considers himself? It might save further disagreements. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:24, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The problem boils down to the fact that "Irish" is both an ethnic description and the nationality of a specific country. I am also Irish - but I am not a citizen of the Republic of Ireland. Thus, to distinguish from being 'Southern' Irish (ie, of the Republic of Ireland), the term Northern Irish is used... otherwise it's ambiguous and might confuse a reader who subsequently believes that Eddie Irvine is a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.
I have seen Irvine refer to himself as British on TV, on more than one occasion (usually in pre- or post-race interviews on ITV). I know he self-identifies as British. I know he self-identifies as Irish. I've even heard him talk about Ulster, and self-describing as an Ulsterman. However, there is a whole wealth of subtlety that this encyclopedia shouldn't really go into: I still maintain, stick to the facts. --Mal 16:44, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Well that's my point. The fact is when he competed in F1 he was described as British, and I've already said I've no objection to that being in the infobox as that specifically refers to his F1 career. However he does have the right to identify himself as Irish or British, and given his 1995 interview it's likely he now identifies himself as Irish. As it's only likely we can't include it, but that also means we can't say he's currently British either surely? One Night In Hackney 22:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I suspect you guys know more than me about the subtleties of Britishness vs Irishness as regards Northern Ireland (being as how I'm a common or garden Englishman, and from East Anglia at that..... ;-)). Can I just note that we do know that Irvine held a UK passport, and therefore had British nationality, during his F1 career: FIA rules for international level racing say your 'racing nationality' has to match your passport, not your racing license as is the case at lower levels. That doesn't mean he didn't also hold, or hasn't since taken, Irish nationality of course. I offer that only as part of the jigsaw. I've got the FIA reference somewhere, I'll post back..... 4u1e 23:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Ref various entries here (e.g. that of One Night In Hackney ) may I stress AGAIN that you can be both Irish and British. They are not mutually exclusive states! To be both you would need to be one of the following:

  • Northern Irish, with a British Passport (e.g. Eddie)
  • Northern Irish with a British and an Irish Passport (e.g. - I think - Gerry Adams)
  • Irish with both a British and an Irish passport (e.g. Terry Wogan) PaddyBriggs 17:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes I'm well aware of that, my first post on this page made it specifically clear that someone can be both Irish and British. So I'm not really sure what (if anything at all) you're bringing to the discussion? One Night In Hackney 17:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be more sensitivity on the British/Irish question on Wiki than on most subjects! We are not even allowed to say on the entries on Ireland or the Geography of Ireland that the island of Ireland is one of the British Isles!!!! Quite why what I assume to be Irish republicans are allowed to be so active in their anti Britishness on Wiki is beyond me! Boring, boring, boring! All I am trying occasionaly to do here and elsewhere is to make it clear that that there is some ambiguity. Eddie Irvine is Irish, and British. So is Darren Clark. Let's say so. Ireland is one of the British Isles...Let's say so...and so on. End of rant!! PaddyBriggs 17:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the point about how ambiguous terminology can be regarding this issue is being ignored. One can say one is Irish, as do I, and as does Eddie Irvine.. but that does not necessarily make it true that either myself or Irvine are Irish by nationality (ie: Irish citizens). Has Irvine taken advantage of the generous offer by the Republic of Ireland that he too can be officially recognised as a citizen of that country? I honestly don't know. F1 commentators, for ITV anyway, often refer to Irvine as "the Ulsterman".. and I'm quite convinced that most English people (and the commentators are invariably English) wouldn't usually know what an 'Ulster' was if one came up and hit them in the bake! My suspicion is that either Irvine, or his sister or his ma or da.. all the way from sunny Breezemount, near Conlig, has mentioned Ulster once or twice to them.
One can be British and Irish without being a citizen of the Republic of Ireland.
So, to say in the article that he is Irish may confuse readers who, for the most part, will naturally assume that the person is a citizen of that particular state. That would be inaccurate. --Mal 04:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. Britain is the Island of England, Scotland (inc. Scottish islands) and Wales. It is however part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, shortened to the United Kingdom. --Bill Reid | Talk 11:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for discussing it here. As I'm sure you're aware, the terminology used for the various nations of what could probably most neutrally be called the Atlantic islands is complex and not always logical. I believe, and a look at the United Kingdom article seems to support it, that the correct term for a citizen of the United Kingdom is 'British', despite the geographical difference between the island of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, which you correctly point out. 'United Kingdom' isn't a nationality - it's the nation - and I'm not sure what other term can be used. Can you make any other suggestion? 4u1e 12:27, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
The disambiguation page British may also be useful. 4u1e 12:32, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Noting, as I have at the WP:F1 talk page, that my passport (I'm from England) gives nationality as 'British citizen'. I imagine that Eddie's would do the same, could someone confirm whether this is the case for passports for Northern Ireland? I know some aspects of legislation differ. Cheers. 4u1e 12:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think you're correct. My interpretation was rather narrowly focussed. If this settles the matter, please reverse my changes. Regards, Bill Reid | Talk 14:55, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
OK - thanks again for discussing it here. Cheers. 4u1e 15:06, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
British passports for Northern Ireland are identical to Eng/Scot/Welsh passports. Mark83 21:44, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but the Republic of Ireland offers Irish nationality to all people born on the island of Ireland (see Nineteenth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland and Northern_Ireland#Nationality_and_identity). Many people in Northern Ireland therefore hold both British and Irish nationality. Cordless Larry 13:08, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
No apologies needed. You're right, and it may be that Eddie holds both, we don't know (Although Paddy Briggs suggested above that he doesn't). What we do know is that he either held only a British passport while racing in F1, or chose to be represented as British, because he did race under the UK flag. The FIA treats nationality at international level as matching the passport held by the driver. The infobox relates only to his racing career, so the important thing there is the nationality he raced as. 4u1e 13:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but at a fundamental level he raced under the British flag. As has been noted he is entitled to claim either British or Irish citizenship (or both). Therefore it follows logically that since he raced under the British flag that is his preference - if he objected to it and preferred to be called Irish all he would have had to do was apply for an Irish passport (which all NI born people are entitled to do) and show that to the FIA. Mark83 21:48, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct. 4u1e 11:17, 30 April 2007
Yes, although it's perhaps also the case that he has both nationalities and didn't have a strong preference for either, but the FIA only allowed him to race under one. Cordless Larry 18:50, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it's reasonable to assume Irvine had some preference, however slight, as he could easily have raced for Ireland if he'd wanted. He had to have chosen to race for the UK, for some reason. Bretonbanquet 20:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Irish should be avoided in describing him. He is a citizen of the UK not the made up country of "Ireland". He is only Irish in the same sense that someone from England is English. Just like the Englisman, His nationality is still British, not Irish. The confusion stems of course from those in the so called "ROI", who still have imperialist aspirations towards a province of the British state, and their fanatical supporters in British Ulster, who have got it into their heads that Irish is the equivalent of British and that the two are somehow mutually exclusive of one another. Well it is not! Irish is the equivalent of English, Scottish and Welsh and NOT British. YourPTR! 09:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to point out that the discussion on what to call Eddie has nothing to do with YourPTR!'s comments immediately above. As far as I can see they are factually incorrect, in that there is an independent Republic of Ireland, about which there is no confusion for the 'correct' nationality to use: It would be Irish (as for Derek Daly). The debate for Irvine is because he is from Northern Ireland, which is part of the UK and formally British, but is still 'Irish' in other ways. 4u1e 08:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Info from this article used in new webpage[edit]

Irvine's new official website uses info from this article. This article did not copy the information verbatim - it was actually the other way around! :) --Mal 17:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section[edit]

Mal - I've replaced the trivia tag. The guidelines seem to be quite clear on this, articles shouldn't really have them. Certainly if they aspire GA or FA status. For what it's worth, here's my view on what could be done with the elements listed under trivia:

  • He is a friend of the U2 frontman Bono, who taught him how to play the guitar. Trivial, but interesting. As Irvine has quite a reputation as a playboy, could a section perhaps be worked up on Irvine's well publicised social life, where this would fit quite nicely.
  • Irvine had a brief fling with actress and model Pamela Anderson, who broke off the romance claiming that "Eddie was just too sweet for me." (June, 2006). Trivial. I'm inclined to say ditch it, although I suppose it could go in a 'Social life' section in a sentence such as: 'Irvine has been connected in the press with a variety of famous women, including Pamela Anderson, X, Y and Z' (I'm sure there must be loads of others!)
  • According to the Sunday Times Rich List, published in April 2006, Irvine is now the fifth richest person of Northern Ireland, having increased his personal fortune to approximately £160 million. Very relevant, could be worked in with some mention of his life outside F1, particularly his investments.
  • Irvine is known for his extravagant helmet designs including a shamrock and a jaguar. Better known than anyone else? I'd say this is too trivial, unless we want to do a 'Helmet' section, as per Alain Prost, Damon Hill or Michael Schumacher. Personally of those three I think Hill is the only one where it's sufficiently notable to include, and that's only because he used his father's racing colours. My vote would be to delete it.
  • He has been linked to a future role at the Spyker MF1 Racing Formula One team. Is this still current? If not, it can go, I think. 4u1e 17:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
4 - my attitude is WP:SOFIXIT. The trivia guideline (and that's all it is) box is just excessive and needless. I disagree with the guideline in any case, and certainly the manifestation of this box. I happen to think that 'trivia' sections are useful to both researcher and casual users both. I do agree with some aspects of the guidelines that had been in place before this new box was created.. for example "Irvine once killed a fly with his Ferrari" is going a bit far! --Mal 09:04, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Further comment - I agree with every one of your points above. :) --Mal 09:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
And it's a fair point - to which the usual response is that it's quicker to point out problems than it is to fix them. To which you can further respond that's there's probably more value in fixing a small number of problems than in pointing out a large number of problems and doing nothing about them. Etc, etc, etc. Plus I'm a consensus kind of guy! It's not something I feel that strongly about. If I get a chance I'll fix it, if I don't, I won't object further if you remove the tag. Fair? Cheers. 4u1e 12:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Nationality (part three)[edit]

Having found some articles in relation to this, thought I'd share them:

  • Google Books, Events Design and Experience, by Graham Berridge "There were other problems when Eddie Irvine was on the podium for the first time. Eddie comes from Ireland but as he is from the Northern part he is considered to be British and so a Union Jack was flown. This upset the Irish nationalists who demanded that an Irish flag be flown and threatened Eddie and his family with violence. When an Irish flag was flown there were threats from the Irish extremists who want Eddie to be British. Irvine asked the FIA to fly a neutral flag and play a neutral song!"
  • The Independent, 25-04-97 "Eddie Irvine would like to think he will discover on Sunday if the authorities are prepared to meet his request for a flag depicting a shamrock to be displayed on the podium in his honour. Better still, if they are prepared to play the non- sectarian Londonderry Air to mark his victory. The Ulsterman stood beneath the Irish tricolour after taking second place in Buenos Aires and, as a result, his parents received threatening phone calls. Irvine, who lives in the Republic and is licensed as a racing driver there, wants to avoid any implied commitment to either the tricolour or the Union flag, suggesting the shamrock symbol would be a politically and socially acceptable compromise. He said: "It can be a help being Irish and British, and this has not caused me problems, but it has for my father and mother back home, and people who work for me. Politics should be kept out of sport."
  • Eddie Irvine FAQ "What was all the fuss about what flag is on the podium? Well, Northern Ireland had a bit of a Civil War from the late 1960's until the Good Friday Agreement. Just under half the population wants to be part of Ireland (Nationalists), the other half want to remain part of the United Kingdom (Unionists). Each side follows their own flag, Irish Tricolour for Nationalists, Union Jack for Unionists. Eddie is Protestant, so in theory he is an Unionist. But he isn’t, he’s neutral, as is most of the people here. Now, he should because of his birthplace have a Union Jack flying, but because he had an Irish racing license the FIA decreed he should have a Tricolour flying. Which caused no end of trouble for his parents back home. Eddie himself wanted a neutral flag but in the end it was decided that the Union Jack and the Tricolour would be shown on alternate visits to the podium."

So basically what can be gleaned is: from the first source, that a Union Jack was flown after his first podium finish, i.e. the 1995 Canadian Grand Prix; from the second source, that a Tricolour was flown at the 1997 Argentine Grand Prix (which is his third podium finish); and from the third source, that thereafter it alternated between the two.
What we don't know is what flag was flown at the 1996 Australian Grand Prix, his second podium finish.
Thus, what I would suggest is that in the "nationality" field we display both British and Irish flags; that no changes be made to the current verbatim of the lead section (although maybe there would be a mention that he raced under both British and Irish flags?); and that a paragraph be added below the lead section explaining what the above links suggest. Any other suggestions, ideas, etc.? --Schcambo (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting, although I'm not sure I'm convinced yet (because I don't think he actually did appear more than once under the Irish flag, I also don't think he actually did have an Irish superlicense, although he did have an Irish national racing license - obviously the onus is on me to support that view). I think we probably have to discount the last reference, it's a self published website, which is a no-no in terms of referencing (see WP:RS). The other two look OK, certainly the Independent, less so for the other one because it's not really about F1 and may have played a bit loose with the details. 4u1e (talk) 10:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Possibly relevant:

EDDIE IRVINE will not be allowed to raise a neutral flag if he finishes on the podium in the San Marino Grand Prix.

Irvine - who was fastest after yesterday's first practice sessions for tomorrow's race - had wanted a specially-made neutral flag hoisted because of problems sparked by his second place in Argentina.

Ulster-born Irvine's parents received threatening telephone calls at their Northern Ireland home after the tricolour of the Irish Republic was raised as he stood on the podium in Buenos Aires.


The Dublin-based driver has been told to appeal to motor sport's top boss - Max Mosley, president of the world governing body, FIA, if he wants special dispensation.

But a spokesman for the FIA admitted last night that a mistake had been made in Argentina and that the Union Jack should have been raised because Irvine holds a British passport. FIA spokesman Francesco Longanesi said: "There was a bad mistake from one of the local organisers.

"As far as we understand, Irvine has a British passport so the Union Jack should be raised.

"If Eddie finishes on the podium here tomorrow then the Union Jack will be displayed and 'God Save The Queen' played if he wins!"

Longanesi, revealing that the choice of flag did not depend on the driving licence, added: "If we had evidence that Eddie was from southern Ireland then the tricolour would be raised but he is not so that's that!

"I understand he has a special flag, but our regulations do not allow this. Eddie should appeal to Mr Mosley if he thinks he has a special case."
— The Sun. April 26, 1997

What I haven't uncovered yet is any story covering whether Irvine did make such an appeal, and what the decision was. 4u1e (talk) 12:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't find any evidence of the issue coming up again during the season (I'm using Newsbank via my local library's subscription, by the way). On that basis, I'll re-dit the article to take the Irish flag out of the infobox again. It seems certain that he did (as always concluded before) race under the Union flag, with one exception, which was due to a mix-up. Anyone got Irvine's autobiography? 4u1e (talk) 12:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Done. Oddly, the pic of Irvine at Macau in F3 at the top of the page shows a Union Flag stencilled on the car above his name. Those things don't really have any official status, but it seems strange, since by my understanding he really should have been racing under the Irish flag at that race! 4u1e (talk) 12:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Nothing about his private life[edit]

I'm surprised there is nothing mentioned in the article about his romantic life. He's got a reputation for being a bit of a jack the lad.--jeanne (talk) 14:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Difficult to ref suitably, and not necessarily that relevant. 4u1e (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Nationality, take four[edit]

user:Beaglespanner has edited several times in recent weeks to remove the UK flag from the F1 driver infobox. On most occasions the edits gave Irvine's nationality as 'Irish', and usually no flag was used. In his most recent edit today, the nationality and flag were removed altogether.

Beaglespanner has not entered into debate either here or on his talk page, but I believe his reasoning to be that since Irvine is from the 'Island of Ireland', he can be called Irish, and this does not conflict with his also being a British citizen. I am not sure why this should override his formal nationality, however.

As discussed in the article, Irvine does consider himself to be Irish. But, as also discussed in the article, in terms of nationality, both of his passport and of the nation he officially raced for in F1, he is British. The two are not contradictory, but for the purposes of the F1 infobox, it is the official passport and racing nationality that are relevant.

I invite Beaglespanner to enter into discussion and explain why the standard approach used across WP:F1 for the F1 infobox should change for this particular driver. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 12:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I am not Beaglespanner, but it seems preety clear to me, based on the article and the discussion here that Irvine is both British and Irish.
Officially, he has a British passport and is a British citizen but clearly considers himself Irish, or 'British and Irish' as per the Independent article cited in an above discussion. Therefore, his nationality should be listed as both British and Irish.
I looked at WP:F1 thatyou linked to there and it gives no regulations as to how to determine someone's nationality and I see no reason why the FIA should get to determine this.
Furthermore, the infobox is not reflective of the entire story, i.e. it is inaccurate to list his nationality as 'British' as this clearly does not reflect the entirety of the situation. Just listing 'Irish' would probably be more accurate and passable, but it seems unacceptable to certain editors and, as they point out, does not reflect his official status (as far as we can determine).
I don't know how active you are on this page, so I'm going to change the infobox, feel free to revert it and respond to my comments. - Dalta (talk) 13:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Also, even though the infobox is his F1 infobox, he is more than an F1 driver, he is also a person with a nationality outside of the one determined by the FIA, therfore, his infobox should reflect his personal nationality, as well as or instead of his FIA one. - Dalta (talk) 13:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted your edit as it is against a very strong consensus, as has been explained here and elsewhere. The infobox is an F1 infobox, so shows his nationality as recognised by the F1 governing body, the FIA. Yes, he is more than an F1 driver, but the infobox is no more than an F1 infobox. The article clearly explains the nationality situation for anyone in any doubt. It is not "probably more accurate" to say he's Irish, since the guy never used that nationality at any point in his F1 career. Whatever he is now, he's done nothing notable since his F1 career ended, and the infobox represents nothing but his F1 career. Bretonbanquet (talk) 15:55, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I would also point out that the word "Nationality" is deliberately listed beneath the "Formula One World Championship career" banner and linked to FIA Super Licence#Nationality of drivers, both to reinforce that it's his nationality as recognised by the F1 governing body, the FIA, rather than his "personal" nationality. DH85868993 (talk) 22:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Nationality Changed Under the Good Friday Agreement[edit]

The stipulation of the 1998 Agreement has it that a citizen of Northern Ireland can decide whether his Nationality is Irish or British. Given that Irvine has openly declared himself Irish, I consider the issue closed. Yet some English insist he is British, despite LEGALLY being otherwise. I find this quite vindictive, childish and tragic, to be honest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 15:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the provision to take up Irish citizenship is available to Irvine. If you have access to a reliable source that says that he has formally done so, then it would be really helpful if you could post it here. Note that simply saying that he considers himself Irish is not the same as having the passport. If such evidence is available I will gladly update that part of the article myself.
However, on the narrower issue of which nation he officially competed for in F1, all the evidence is that it was the UK - see the article for this. If you can find any evidence that he officially competed for the ROI in F1, then please post it here too.
Finally, name-calling is a bad idea, and as it happens some of the editors involved in the very lengthy discussion above, which addresses the point you raise several times, are themselves Irish. 4u1e (talk) 19:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of whether he has ever applied for an Irish passport or not, Irish nationality law states that everyone born on the island of Ireland is by right of birth automatically a citizen of Ireland. This means that Ian Paisley himself is now a citizen of Ireland, whether he has acted upon it by actually applying for a passport or not. Northerners, nationalist unionist or otherwise, cannot "take up" Irish citizenship, they all have dual nationality regardless of which one they choose to identify with. This is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement and the Constitution of Ireland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:10, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Flag at 1995 Canadian Grand Prix[edit]

(comment moved from Irish or British (part two) above)

To add to the discussion, this YouTube video, from the 1995 Canada race, seems to show that Irvine has an Irish tricolour flown above him, not the Union Jack, as suggested in the article? Look about 3:51 —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:05, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Anon is right, you know. Well, insofar as you can make anything out on that video. It's a very long shot, but at about 3:50 or so you can see the three flags in the distance in the top left. It's definitely the Brazilian flag over Barrichello, but the other two flags are tricolors. Presumably French for Alesi, and the other one does seem to be the Irish tricolor. It's certainly not the Union Jack. By contrast at 1:10 or so, the official graphics show (as usual) the British Union Flag for Irvine. This doesn't change the fundamental point of the article: he still appears in all official results as British and although he has the right to an Irish passport, no-one has ever produced any evidence that he has actually got one. It is yet another demonstration of the confusion this has caused! 4u1e (talk) 15:24, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

A few minutes searching on YouTube brought up France 1997 (0:15), Argentia 1998 (10:05), Japan 1998 (0:43) and Canada 1999 (3:51). All with the Union Flag. 4u1e (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, that was my comment earlier. I agree it doesn't change the fundamental point, but it does mean that that sentence is completely incorrect. WilliamF1two (talk) 20:07, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. Hang on - let me check the source for that section if I can. If it really does say what the article says we have a bit of a problem, as I don't suppose that Youtube material is on there with the permission of the copyright owners, so we can't really use it as a source. 4u1e (talk) 20:23, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, the given reference doesn't mention Canada 1995 at all, so I suggest we just remove mention of first race and mention what is in the reference. 4u1e (talk) 20:35, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Done. The fact that the 'wrong' flag was also used in Canada 1995 could also be mentioned with a proper source, but I don't think YouTube counts as such. 4u1e (talk) 20:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Am I the only person who remembers Eddie alternating between the Union Jack and the Tri-colour throughout his F1 career? - Thing — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Irvine says he's Irish, not British[edit]

Irvine self-defines as Irish, not British. This article acknowledges this, but then claims his nationality to be "British". Why? (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Because the infobox shows his racing nationality, i.e. the country that issued his superlicence, in this case the UK. He competed in Formula One as a Briton, however non-British he may have considered himself personally. JonChappleTalk 18:00, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Actually, as explained under Eddie Irvine#Nationality:-
"The FIA's International Sporting Regulations state that drivers competing in FIA World Championships shall compete under the nationality of their passport, rather than that of the National Sporting Authority that issued their racing licence, as is the case in other racing series."
Irvine has also stated "I’ve got a British passport" so in FIA terms he would be "British", wherever he got his racing licence. - Arjayay (talk) 16:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2014[edit]

Eddie Irvine's nationality is Northern Irish, yet his Wikipedia has it listed as British. Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, therefore Irvine cant be British. Northern Ireland is however part of the UK, The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which (the less ignorant of people will notice) even explains in it's name - that Britain and Northern Ireland are two separate entities.

The listed "nationality" is incorrect, and needs to be changed from "British" to "Northern Irish". (talk) 16:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done There is no such nationality as "Northern Irish"
As the Good Friday Agreement stated
" is the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly [the two governments] confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."
So, British, or Irish, or British and Irish Arjayay (talk) 16:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
Please also see the Nationality section in the article, where he states "I’ve got a British passport" - Arjayay (talk) 16:48, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
As has been said before, the infobox is an F1 infobox, and so it states the nationality under which he raced in F1, which was British. The article text explains it all anyway. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:49, 11 January 2014 (UTC)