Talk:Politics of food in the Arab-Israeli conflict

Culture

@Valereee: Thanks for creating this article. Do we have one on cultural appropriation? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation. Valereee (talk) 19:06, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

move

Supreme Deliciousness, I object to this move. The politicization is happening from more than one side. I don't object to a redirect from the Israeli appropriation title, but that isn't the whole story here, and in light of the entire story it isn't neutral. Please revert and let's discuss, per WP:RM#CM? I don't think there's any chance this would have been expected to be noncontroversial. Valereee (talk) 19:04, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

The move was uncontroversial as the "politicization" angle is not supported by RS; the cultural appropriation aspect actually is. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:30, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

It's controversial and worth discussing if someone objects. Many of the sources discuss the politicization as well as the accusations of appropriation. Valereee (talk) 19:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Does the scholarship operate at the level of calling these "accusations"? I'm aware of the more honest Israeli chefs, both on the page here, and more generally out there in the world, quite openly admitting the Palestinian origins of much of their most treasured dishes. This has been politicised two-fold: first in the efforts made by the early Israeli state to Hebrewize and de-Arabize its people and culture and exert prejudice towards Arabs (including Arab Jews) and Arabic culture, even while retaining Arabic cultural elements while denying their origins, and in so doing, falsely appropriating it; and secondly, with the rise of reactive politics against cultural appropriation, particularly of indigenous or minority culture, and the taking up of this banner by Palestinian activists. In both instances, however, the epicenter of the topic is very much the cultural appropriation. Isn't the politicisation, per se, more of a meta commentary on the actual topic of appropriation itself? Iskandar323 (talk) 03:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Iskander323, I'm not sure what you're asking when you say Does the scholarship operate at the level of calling these "accusations"?. Are you asking whether anyone is using the word 'accusation', or whether Wikipedia using it is calling it in WikiVoice something that downplays the reality, like when we use 'claim'? I have no attachment to that word, and I have no doubt that much of Israeli cuisine developed directly from adopting/appropriating dishes that had been part of various local cuisines as a way of creating a national cuisine.

I have zero fish to fry, here, other than to present this in a neutral fashion. And I think flat-out titling the article 'Israeli appropriation of' is not neutral. That is what one POV is calling it. Another POV is calling it an 'embrace', for heaven's sake, and that wouldn't be neutral either. Valereee (talk) 14:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I was asking if the scholarship uses the terminology of accusations. The framework of appropriation is relevant here because the dishes and foodstuffs that are under discussion are not credited as Arabic cuisine, but relabeled. If one were too compare this to, say, Tex-Mex in the US, I don't think we see the same level of issue taken with acknowledging it as a US version of Mexican food. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, you'd see plenty of accusations of appropriation (sometimes literally downright stealing of recipes under false pretenses, or buying them for pennies, which quite likely also happened in the first half of the 20th century in Israel/Palestine, but which in the case of some Mexican/Tex-Mex foods was documented). Valereee (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

At a basic level "Middle Eastern" is a bit fast and loose, not least because dishes such as shakshouka are considered distinctively Maghrebi. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

The topic is entirely about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. Not "Politicization of Middle Eastern food" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the scope is fairly specific here. You could potentially have a parent article on wider Mediterranean bickering over food in former Ottoman sphere countries, including famous tiffs such as that of Algeria-Morocco and Turkey-Greece, but that wouldn't be just Middle Eastern any more. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:03, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

A move is controversial if somebody objects to it. If you want it at Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine then open a request move for it, but Im moving it back in the meantime. nableezy - 17:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Nableezy, thanks. I am not in any way married to 'Policitization of', if that feels NPOV to others. If we can come up with something that feels reasonably neutral to everyone, I'm completely on board. Valereee (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

POV

Not sure if this was the intention or not, but the article seems to take a POV angle. It starts with a section that claims Jews just naturally adopted Arab cuisines, and then followed by a section how this was suddenly "politicized" by the Palestinians. This framing is not supported by RS, which mostly describe it as Israel's appropriation of Arab cuisine. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Definitely no intention to insert any POV. I wrote this during discussions at Falafel about how much emphasis an article about a food should place on how that food was being used politically. I do not think the sources mostly describe it as Israel's appropriation of Arab cuisine. They talk about a broader topic. Valereee (talk) 19:37, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

And it certainly does have a POV now, with that section header change. Valereee (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Virtually all the sources are about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. The title reflects all sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Many (not all) sources talk about that, but many also talk about the politics of the situation. The title you're proposing reflects only a single POV from sources that are discussing multiple. FWIW, the politicization is also not from one "side", and the sources reflect that, too. For instance, multiple sources discuss Israel using the development of a national cuisine to develop a national identity. That's politicization of food. It come from all directions. Valereee (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless, the title now no longer matches the content. The current title could quite literally refer to any number of disputes about food in the region. It's highly non-specific to the topic apparent. It feels like the current title is simply avoiding stating the actual topic with any serious degree of precision. At bare minimum, it should be moved to "politicization", if we are to keep that, in the Arab-Israeli or Israeli-Palestinian conflict – the clear focal area. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

There are a few threads in this topic, so it's good to discuss it, but also wise not to be overly reductive. A lot of Arabic dishes in Israeli cuisine come by way of the Arab Jews that either migrated to Palestine or were already there. Some of these dishes might be generically Arabic, or generically former Ottoman sphere, or more specific to smaller regions or geographies. Hummus, for example, is Levantine. More specific dishes from, for example, Tunisia or Yemen, might be characterised as generally from those countries – and still be identified as such in Israel, as noted on the page – or, in some instances, might be specific to local Arab Jewish communities that emigrated from those countries, such as Tunisian Jews or Yemeni Jews – in such case they might just be termed Jewish/Israeli. There is then the very specific subset of dishes that can be considered to be absorbed from specifically Palestinian cuisine. With all of the above, where there is no acknowledgement of the non-Israeli origins of the dishes, the relationship with the food history is obviously appropriative. This is even true with Arab Jewish dishes from Tunisia and Yemen, because, even though much of these communities may now have been absorbed into Israel, any associated cuisine still has its own unique food history rooted in Arabic/regional culture. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:25, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Israeli couscous

I haven't checked the source cited for this line, but the relationship between maftoul and Israeli couscous isn't entirely straightforward. Maftoul is a dish made of hand-rolled couscous (also just called maftoul) prepared in a specific Palestinian way. Israeli couscous is also a name both dish and ingredient, but it is an exonym. In Israel it is just called ptitim, and it is a pasta, not couscous at all, which is a misnomer in this instance. Whether or not the preparation of ptitim as a dish then mimicks maftoul (the dish) and becomes appropriative I do not know, but if so, it needs to be clarified that this is the case to avoid the confusion with the actually distinct base ingredients here. Iskandar323 (talk) 02:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Iskander, the source says "A few years ago, I was incensed that an upscale, hip restaurant/bar I frequented in Manhattan’s Greenwich Village listed something they called “Israeli couscous” as their plat du jour. Appalled, I demanded that they change the name of the dish immediately. I explained to the manager that what they called “Israeli” couscous was actually Palestinian maftoul, traditionally made by hand.". Later in the piece Massad clarifies that the product he's talking about is pearl couscous, which as you say is different from maftoul both in ingredients, the technique, and the appearance of the finished product. And he doesn't seem to object to calling it pearl couscous, which he says is a more neutral term. So what he seems to be objecting to is calling it "Israeli"?

Could Massad possibly be just incorrect here, calling Israeli couscous an appropriated food? This is not outside his area of expertise, although I suppose it's possible even an expert on Middle East culture doesn't actually know the two items have completely different ingredients/methods/appearances, that Israeli couscous isn't actually couscous? Israeli couscous appears to be a food that was consciously developed by Israel as a poverty food in 1953. And one of the few foods that actually can be argued to have been created in Israel. But for some reason this is the anecdote he chose as the opener for his piece. I'm puzzled.

References

Valereee (talk) 12:35, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but the only explanation that makes sense is that the dish was the maftoul with chicken (hence dish of the day, not a salad) but prepared with pearl couscous. I think both maftoul and ptitim can been prepared either as a main with chicken or as a salad. In this context, it would be the rebranding of the preparation that Massad is objecting to, even while acknowledging that the staple base has changed. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, so a traditional Arab dish, prepared with pearl couscous and dubbed an Israeli dish. That makes sense. Valereee (talk) 15:36, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Aprilajune (talk) 02:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Politicization of Middle Eastern food → Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine – The entire topic of the article and all the sources are specifically about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. It is not about the general appropriation or politicization of food about other countries in the Middle East. It is not about Iran appropriating Jordanian food, or Oman appropriating Iraqi food, or Lebanon appropriating Algerian food. This article and its sources are solely and exclusively about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine, so that's what the title should be Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support move to Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine per my argument above, entire article and all the sources are about the "Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine", not a broader "Politicization of Middle Eastern food". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Strong support given the plethora of RS discussing the topic in this aspect. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, because the suggested usage of 'appropriation' is very contentious and suggests that Wikipedia is taking one side over others, which can lead us into POV territory. I would support changing it to 'Food politics in the Middle East', and ensure that the article includes more viewpoints and debates on other cultures. I am familiar with similar debates over food identities in other areas of the Middle East (though I am still unconvinced that we need this article at all). PeleYoetz (talk) 18:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

"suggests that Wikipedia is taking one side over others" ? The side of 100% of the sources and text in the article? Everything in the article is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Why wouldn't we need it? Do you think the topic does not meet notability guidelines? ByVarying | talk 23:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

All the sources in the article and all the text is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

SD, that is not true. Sources discuss the politicization. Valereee (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Looks like a WP:POVTITLE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

How is it pov when all the sources in the article and all the text is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 05:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Regardless of the weight of the sources, the suggested title is accusatory in an unencyclopedic way. ByVarying | talk 06:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Regardless of the weight of the sources" ? The sources are confirming that it is an Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. This article isn't about the entire Middle East, so it is the current name that is unencyclopedic . --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

They may be confirming that, but WP:NDESC, Avoid judgmental and non-neutral words [in titles]. ByVarying | talk 06:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as both POV and NDESC and because there's more to this article than appropriation; there's also the politicization of the foods themselves. I don't object to moving this to something more neutral, but this isn't it. Maybe Arab dishes in Israeli cuisine? Valereee (talk) 12:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Why would we name it that way when we have RS saying that Israel's adoption of Arab dishes into its cuisine is appropraition? Makeandtoss (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

NDESC and POV. The fact RS are saying this doesn't mean that's everything they're saying/all there is to be said, and saying only one part of what's to be said is POV.

And would people please stop badgering this discussion with the same argument over and over? You've made it clear you think 'appropriation' is all there is to be said. Some editors disagree, think the topic is broader than that, and want to make sure we're using a neutral title. Valereee (talk) 14:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Clearly prohibited as POV and obviously is contrary to NDESC. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 14:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - agree with Hemiauchenia. Maybe "Allegations of Appropriated Israeli Cuisine"? Many of the initial settlers of Israel from Middle East were Arab Jews who shared in much of the heritage, so the story of the cuisine is complicated. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I do think the current title definitely is too vague. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 17:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Allegations" is specifically mentioned at NDESC. Maybe "Israel and Arab cuisine" or "Arab cuisine in Israel"? ByVarying | talk 20:45, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Food and drink, WikiProject Western Asia, and WikiProject Politics have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move 2

I'm proposing moving this to Arab dishes in Israeli cuisine, which I believe is all around more neutral, precise, and accurate. We can open an RM if others think that's necessary, but I'm hoping this will be seen as solving the major concerns in the previous RM. Valereee (talk) 10:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the centuries-old intermingling of different cultural-ethnic groups in any specific region (per possible shared developments and definite shared consumption); as already intermingled in the article (as about Syrian and Egyptian Jews per geography across the ethnicities' nuance), is best described via a region; at this instance a Middle-East state with Arabs and other ethnicities (as Maronites, Berbers, Jews etc' constitute ancient populations within surrounding states of predominantly Arab-ethnicities including therefore diverse-ethnical range of such cuisine influances). For this I support "Dishes of the Arab Region..." (or "Israel and dishes of the Arab Region..."), while appropriation and politicization debates/contra-views remain one of the article's focuses; /or/ keep "Middle Eastern"/Greater Middle East dishes"; which extends to Mahgreb under wider definition, and "Great" clarifies Maghreb inclusion (as for Couscous) and Turks (also claim Hummus) as well a possible extension to Caucasus and alltogether Israel's view of Mizrachi. אומנות (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

@אומנות, this is maybe off-topic, but for my better understanding can you clarify which meaning for Mizrachi from that dab link? Valereee (talk) 15:05, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant Mizrahi Jews to suggest its precise correspondents to the Greater Middle East area; while pointing my supporting view for "Israel and cuisine of the Arab Region/"Middle Eastern" to suggest that Geography terms as factual while across different ethnicities-debates, I saw that Hummus which is in this article also relates and claimed in Turkey/Turks, which then fits to "Greater Mid East" to both non-arab countries and Mizrahi Jews umbrella. אומנות (talk) 19:07, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

what reliable source says Turkey is claiming Hummus? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Food historian Charles Perry quoted by BBC: “The practice of whipping hummus up against the wall of the bowl indicates a sophisticated urban product, not an ancient folk dish. I'm inclined to think hummus was developed for the Turkish rulers in Damascus,” Valereee (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Developed for, not created by. He says he thinks it originated from Damascus. And its a theory completely from the author without historical evidence. Where is the source saying Turkey is claiming Hummus? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

"I'm inclined to think" is also a pretty couched phrase. Not exactly emphatic. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Ho... I just now realize you moved the title, sorry I worked on something else on Wikipedia and then immediatly responded here without noticing. However I would still of course explain what I meant by the accidental dab-link of "Mizrahi", so I hope this explanation is still fine, and thank you for moving and in general for reading my suggestions. אומנות (talk) 19:26, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

@אומנות, yes, I'd be interested in what you meant! Totally sincere, I'm always interested in such things. Valereee (talk) 21:34, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Agree with Valeree. Suggestions above from ByVarying "Israel and Arab cuisine" and "Arab cuisine in Israel" are also good. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:40, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I dont like the new move to "Greater Middle East dishes in Israeli cuisine" , who agreed to this? It doesnt represent the scope of the article. Basically everything in the article is about Arab Levantine or Arab ME dishes appropriated by Israel. It is not "Greater Middle East", and Arab is missing from the title. Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:47, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Hey, SD...אומנות had suggested this might be better to include Maghreb and Turkey and parts of the Caucasus? I feel like the title doesn't necessarily need to capture only what's currently in the article if there are things that aren't and that possibly should be. אומנות is saying couscous should include the Maghreb and hummus should include Turkey, and that 'Arab' doesn't necessarily include either of those? Valereee (talk) 21:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Hummus isn't from Turkey, that's Egyptian and Levantine. I dont know what definition of Arab would not include the Maghreb, Maghreb literally being an Arabic word. Im also not a fan of this new title. nableezy - 22:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I mean titling under "Greater Middle East" to include the Maghreb and Turkey based on dishes already in the article including the hotly-debated Hummus. Even without seeing Turkey, I would have still supported "Arab Region" and not just "Arab" to not confuse it as solely "Arab ethnicities-cuisine" and accidently leading to kind of appropriation-POV, which is also part of the root-cause of the article's presented ethnical-debates, in a shared Geographical area.

So ultimately, I view that the facts and neutrality, for the title, lie within terms of Geography, compared to cultural debates-uncertainty within this geography; (as tribes from the Arab Peninsula migrated to other areas across the Middle East and mingled with newer immigrants or pre-existing ones as ethnicities-"Salad" dish, pun intended).

As for Turkey and Hummus, I was about to link the source for anyone who wants to use and expend for this article or the Hummus-article, and I see that you-Valereee posted later above. Yeah that's the BBC one I saw and fully read twice. I will also just add some key-points from this [1]; you can see how this article for example also points the use of chickpeas and ingredients mingling in Turkey 10,000 years ago and titles Turkey in the debating-countries (as well as what you pointed Valereee – about Turks migrations to Syria and consuming Hummus there) alongside claims as a "Jewish dish"; how the competition on the biggest Hummus dish was between Lebanon and Israeli-Arabs as for Israel's own Jewish-Arab citizens; how an Israeli Hummus restaurant is handled by a Maronite family; when Maronites consumed same or similar dishes as Arabs and said to be descendants of Phoenicians (non Arabs) in Lebanon. So, this BBC showcases the ethnical complexity in yet a quite defined Geography.

I'm also sorry for a missunderstanding above - I meant that I hope the explanation-clarification I already brought to "Mizrhi Jews" is fine. I didn't have further material to add in regards to "Mizrahi". However I can look for more sources later on such as for political and appropriation debates from different sides and info on other dishes also consumed by Mizrahi Jews as in the Caucasus and the rest of the region. In such case I will place sources here at the talk page, as for now I prefer to refrain from editing this contentious-topic and to clash with yours and others edits which are already in progress. אומנות (talk) 23:03, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Re leading to kind of appropriation-POV, which is also part of the root-cause of the article's presented ethnical-debates; The article will have to include the appropriation aspect with whatever title is used. nableezy - 23:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I meant in regards to the articles' title, to name the article via area so to not fall on naming after just Arab (but rather Arab Region) or any specific ethnicity, and by this to neutrally describe the understandably included material about ethnical and politicization debates within the article, and for which at the end I added and meant that I can look for more sources also about appropriation and politicization materials, to add to the article. אומנות (talk) 02:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I've undone the move, seems we need to discuss further. Valereee (talk) 23:24, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

This topic is a subtopic of Arab-Israeli conflict, how about something like "Cuisine in the Arab-Israeli conflict"? Levivich (talk) 15:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Works for me. Neutral, broad enough. Valereee (talk) 15:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I think Politics of food in the Arab-Israeli conflict is better. I don’t like politicization because it implies that there isn’t anything inherently political about cultural imperialism and/or appropriation, both of which would fit in such a title. nableezy - 15:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

A lot of the info here is not about politics. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Appropriation falls under that. nableezy - 16:56, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

When you make a Google Image search for "appropriation", there is only cultural images showing up, not political. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Colonialism, appropriation, erasure of identity, these are all political topics. nableezy - 17:10, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Also works for me. Valereee (talk) 16:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Me too. Levivich (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, don't mind. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Appropriation of cuisine in the Arab-Israeli conflict, better reflects the topic. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Is there anything else to this topic (food in A-I conflict) besides appropriation? If not, then perhaps that is the most WP:PRECISE title? Levivich (talk) 17:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Literally 100%-99% of the info in the article is about the Israeli appropriation of Arab cuisine. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:03, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

In the article, but my question is, is the same true among the RS? (It seems to me that the answer is yes.) Levivich (talk) 17:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

The RS are not just about appropriation. It's a broader topic than that, and I feel like it isn't neutral to lump all of it under appropriation. Valereee (talk) 17:31, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I think examples of non-appropriation RS might be convincing, and also might help us see what to call it, by looking at what these RS call it. Also, FWIW, "appropriation" is the RM that just failed, so I think it's probably a non-starter anyway? Levivich (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Here are a few that to me seem to go beyond simple discussions of appropriation. And, yes, appropriation in the title is probably a non-starter as one of the objections in the RM was NDESC.

BBC

In the divide between Palestinians and Israelis even simple humous has become political because both sides claim it as their own.p5

Kirkus

those foods became unifying symbols

the Zionist “homegrown” campaign of the 1920s and the use of the school cafeteria as a vehicle for the development of a national cuisine

aim to use the concrete evidence of the development of a national cuisine to interrogate the abstraction of nationalism

Readers wishing for a little more about food and a little less about nationalism

NYT

And Jews and Arabs argue about falafel in a way that reflects the wider conflict, touching on debates over territory and history.

But because of the political situation, falafel has taken on enormous significance.

Jewish and Israeli attitudes toward the falafel debate range from defiance to ambivalence to outright shame -- just as they do toward the conflict at large

Still, it wasn't until hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab countries emigrated to Israel in the 1950's that falafel truly became an Israeli emblem

The more I think and the more I pray for peace, the more I think it's a silly argument.

University of California Press

Food products sometimes become symbols of national identity

Falafel was not assimilated into Israeli society by a long, slow, natural process. Rather, its transformation into an icon of Israeli culture was rushed and deliberate. In its urgent search for symbols of unity, the nationalistic movement hit upon falafel as a signifier of Israeli pride

Valereee (talk) 17:53, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! But you don't see those as being about appropriation? E.g., "both sides claim it as their own" -> isn't that about whether or not one side appropriated it? I see all arguments along the lines of "We came up with it first!" vs. "No, we came up with it first and you stole it from us!" as being "about appropriation." Similarly, I see "development of a national cuisine" as being "about appropriation" (and appropriation is always about politics) because the controversy is whether or not the national cuisine was appropriated from another nation. Is there anything to say about falafel besides (1) recipes and (2) whether falafel is Israeli or Arab? Is there a (3)? I'm having trouble seeing any aspect of this besides origin of food, e.g. whether X food is Israeli/Jewish or Arab/Palestinian. I can kind of see one possible (3) which would be, e.g., what falafel means to Israelis vs. what falafel means to Palestinians vs. what falafel means to other Arabs, but I have a strong suspicion that what falafel means to Arabs/Palestinians is "cuisine that was appropriated from us," and then we're back to cultural appropriation. Levivich (talk) 18:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they're definitely about appropriation, but they're also about more than appropriation, too. I feel like I'm not doing a very good job of explaining myself, here. I feel like the fact much of the discussion is appropriation(NR) doesn't mean appropriation is the sole subject. To me it seems much more complicated than that. Gastronationalism, local foods, development of a national identity, use as a symbol.

And of course there's more to say about food than recipes, you philistine. History, development, cultural importance, and (as here) political importance, in this case appropriation and the use of it as a symbol of that. I started this draft because Falafel had turned into being about appropriation and the political uses the food was being put to. But there's a lot more to say about falafel than appropriation and politics. Valereee (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see what you mean now about them all being about appropriation but not only about appropriation (e.g. cultural importance). Levivich (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

And even cultural importance can be about appropriation, or vice versa. FWIW, I really don't have any strong opinion on the title other than not including appropriation. Pretty much anything else we can get consensus on is quite likely to be fine with me. I just think including it in the title narrows the subject unhelpfully. Plus of course NDESC/the previous RM probably rule it out anyway. Valereee (talk) 12:24, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

It's been six days. Would anyone here object to Politics of food in the Arab-Israeli conflict for now, open to further discussion if needed, but just to get it out of this definitely less-than-ideal title? Valereee (talk) 15:19, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

As you say, better than the current one. Since you created it here, move away! Iskandar323 (talk) 18:02, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

+1 Levivich (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Good with it nableezy - 12:50, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Absolute oppose of the POV "Arab dishes in Israeli cuisine," which portrays centuries and millennia-old Arab dishes as being part of the cuisine of a state that was abruptly created in 1948. And I also oppose the current ChatGPT-like title which goes against what RS have explicitly charachterized as appropriation. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:49, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss, given that we've ruled out using 'appropriation' in the title, what is your second choice? Valereee (talk) 12:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

We have ruled it out for now, but that does not affect the future. I am still with the same opinion. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:23, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I assume you do not want to go back to the previous title, either, so for now I guess we've at least made that much progress? Valereee (talk) 12:27, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

edits for balance and additional context and info

My edits here [2] are to add some more about Mizrahi Jewish cuisine. Falafel and hummus both probably come from Egypt, where there were many Jewish immigrants who went to Israel. It's important context since nobody really knows when or where many of those dishes originated, so wars about appropriation may ignore the fact that Mizrahi Jews brought that cuisine with them to Israel. Andre🚐 23:41, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Kassis

What Kassis actually says is In an effort to create a state for the Jewish people and a new Jewish identity in historic Palestine in the early to mid-20th century, food was one item used to achieve a sense of Israeli nationalism. An effort ... was one item used. SPECIFICO has distorted this source which identifies a purposeful effort into a banal thing that just happened. And she even calls it Israel's many foods and cuisine, when the source itself disclaims the idea of calling Palestinian foods "Israel's"! This is straightforward source misrepresentation and should be reverted. nableezy - 13:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

This is the fallacy of misplaced concreteness. Neither Kassis - nor this particular reminiscence of her personal food identity - support your edit "cosciously...". Note that your quote above is passive voice, the article text with consciouly is double WP:WEASEL. SPECIFICO talk 13:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That’s absurd, and if consciously is the issue remove that word, not transform it to a complete distortion of what she wrote. That you are straightforwardly misrepresenting the source and saying this here is absolutely wild. I encourage anybody with an interest in accurately reflecting the sources to read your edit and the source and see for themselves that a revert is called for. You’re also using reverts to enforce your misrepresentation, but that’s an issue for another forum I suppose. nableezy - 14:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree that "consciously" is no good, I've copyedited it to "Israel's many foods and cuisine have been used to inspire a sense of nationalism and national identity within a community composed of immigrants from multiple cultures", how's that? Andre🚐 21:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

It isn’t Israel’s many foods, and that is straightforward misrepresentation of the cited source. nableezy - 22:29, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll take that out [3] seem fair? Andre🚐 22:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Nope, it is not Israeli food. I’m going to restore an actual accurate portrayal of what Kassis wrote. nableezy - 18:18, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Culture is not a fabrication. Kassis understands that it is not cosciously created. More important, if the dominant mainstream narrative is, in fact, claiming "cosciously created", then we could easily find dozens of RS that say so. SPECIFICO talk 16:49, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I have corrected the misrepresentation of Kassis, in which she was cited talking about Israeli food while declaiming the appropriation of Palestinian food as Israeli. Ive used quotes from her article to avoid any pedantic argument on whether or not a specific word was used. nableezy - 17:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Characterization as appropriation

@SPECIFICO: Can you expand on the justification for your last revert? The original line read Over time, Israeli embrace of foods traditional to Middle East cuisine, and particularly those of Arab culture, was seen by many Palestinians and other Arabs as cultural appropriation. There are two problems with that line: 1) the criticism is still ongoing, so "was seen" would be incorrect and 2) it is not limited only to Arabs, as shown by the sources I provided. Why exactly is that controversial? - Ïvana (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Article text related to this has been controversial. Given recent consensus, it would be best to agree on changes. Having read some of the non-paywalled sources, I'm not sure the edired text gave the best summary of sources' central points. How did you find and select the sources? Are there accessible versions of all? SPECIFICO talk 20:51, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, then we can use this opportunity to discuss them. None of the provided sources are paywalled, otherwise I wouldn't have been able to access them. Here are the links to the specific book pages (already mentioned in the refs) just to make it easier: 1 2 3 4 5 6. The only modification to the current sentence, which I assume has consensus, is replacing "Arabs" to indicate that the criticism is not limited to them (as shown by the sources), along with a small adjustment at the beginning to clarify that the criticism is ongoing (if anything, it has been growing since last year). - Ïvana (talk) 21:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. What led you to these particular sources? So far I don't see them emphasizing the colonization/appropriation labeling. SPECIFICO talk 21:42, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I selected these sources because they mention the appropriation of Palestinian cultural elements, esp food, in the context of Israeli identity. For example, the journal cited examines Israeli cookbooks, highlighting how despite acknowledging the cultural appropriation of Palestinian foods they construct a narrative that normalizes this. One of the sources notes that the national identity of Israel has been partially built by using and appropriating cultural elements of the Other [Arabs], another that is considered a deadly enemy. This ambiguity [...] results from a national identity built on the appropiation and renaming of some cultural elements of the native Palestinian population which highlights the way Israeli identity is constructed through the appropriation of Palestinian culture (this comes up in a chapter that revolves around food). Another source states that Historically, the appropriation of Levantine foods by European Jews has corresponded not with improving but rather with the further entrenchment of Israeli colonialism. This indicates that the appropriation of Palestinian culinary traditions is linked to broader patterns of colonialism rather than fostering mutual respect/understanding. I don't see how they are not related to the subject.- Ïvana (talk) 00:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We need to determine the relative WEIGHT of "appropriation" narratives. Selecting only such narratives would not accomplish that. SPECIFICO talk 03:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

We're not claiming in wiki voice that the appropriation narrative is the prevailing perspective, we're highlighting it as a significant point of criticism from various critics (regardless of their ethnicity). The aim is to reflect the ongoing criticism, which is supported by the cited sources and exists regardless of whether people believe it to be valid or not. - Ïvana (talk) 04:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Right, and my comment related to whether it is a significant view. That has not been demonstrated by the selection of sources you provided. SPECIFICO talk 07:11, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the proposed sentence (which is barely tweaking the current one) alludes to the view being the main one, only that it exists. But if that's your main concern, any ambiguity can be easily fixed by rewording the sentence to make this clear. Again, my intention was simply to a) denote that the criticism is still ongoing, which is IMO not clear with the current wording and b) remove the claim that the criticism is only coming from Arab people, something that is factually not true. I would also like to hear other opinions, so hopefully more people will give their two cents, even tho this article is not particularly popular. - Ïvana (talk) 12:36, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ïvana, just to let me be lazy, where in the article body is this covered? Valereee (talk) 20:36, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Valereee: here. - Ïvana (talk) 20:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Not 100% sure what edit is under dispute, but, any and all of these POVs need to be attributed and not stated in wikivoice, since it's very much a controversial topic, per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Many people, Arab, Jewish, or otherwise, do not necessarily believe that Israeli cuisine is appropriation. Cuisine is one of many things through cultural diffusion spread throughout the Mediterranean. E.g. the Greek alphabet is a descendant of the Phoenician alphabet. Sometime in medieval Egypt people were eating falafel and those same inheritors of that cultural tradition might have been Jewish, Coptic Christian, Druze, or something else. Mizrahi Jews brought that cuisine to Israel. It's true that early Zionists and Israeli cultural thinkers wanted to make their culture less European and more Middle Eastern. That is fair to cover in the article. But nobody knows the exact genealogy of how foods from ancient and medieval times were inherited, so we should be a bit more circumspect about stating controversial claims in Wikivoice. Andre🚐 20:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The edit is linked in my first comment. Current line reads Over time, Israeli embrace of foods traditional to Middle East cuisine, and particularly those of Arab culture, was seen by many Palestinians and other Arabs as cultural appropriation. and my proposed (minimal) modification, with sources, is Over time, Israeli embrace of foods traditional to Middle East cuisine, and particularly those of Arab culture, has been seen by many critics as cultural appropriation. I don't see wiki voice being used in either of them, and I already explained why. - Ïvana (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

So, one thing to point out here is that Palestinian is a region. E.g., the ancient Ben Ezra Synagogue in Fustat is known as the "Palestinian synagogue," because at the time of the Fatimids, the Jews from Jerusalem fled to Egypt and they followed the Palestinian rite, as distinct from the other Jewish communities in Egypt. So when someone talks about Palestinian falafel, they aren't saying something synonymous with Arab falafel. Unless we're in a certain political or ethnic context, we have to determine in what aspect the term "Palestinian" is being used, and in this case it's regional cuisine, i.e. Levantine cuisine. Palestinian falafel is the style of falafel eaten in Palestine, the region, as opposed to the Egyptian or Lebanese falafel. As a side note, the best falafel I ever had was a Lebanese falafel place in Amsterdam. I know some people like their falafel really crunchy, but I prefer a soft, moderate crunch on the outside and a creamy, melt-in-your-mouth middle. Permit me that digression but this is a food article, right? However, we're dealing in the politics of food. Food articles shouldn't be nationalistic battlegrounds. Everyone gets to share the human heritage of grinding up a chickpea and making it into a ball. Andre🚐 20:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

How is that related to the edit in question? - Ïvana (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The Egyptian version, using favas? Definitely superior. I've made a lot of falafel over the past few months testing this theory. Sorry, chickpea lovers. Valereee (talk) 21:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ïvana, the sources there seem to support Palestinians and other Arabs, but does it support a more general 'many critics'? Valereee (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The people cited in the sources are not all Arabs or Palestinians. Reducing the criticism to a singular narrative based solely on ethnicity or nationality is an oversimplification. - Ïvana (talk) 21:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you expand on who is quoted saying what? I'm sorry to seem to be nitpicking, but for the lead in a CT, we need to have our ducks in a row. Which non-Arab/non-Palestinians are calling it "cultural appropriation"? Valereee (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Anny Gaul, Graham Auman Pitts, Vicki Valosik (americans) the Palestinian origin of foods incorporated into the Israeli culinary repertoire is completely edited [...] Historically, the appropriation of Levantine foods like hummus by European Jews has corresponded not with improving intercommunal relations but rather with the further entrenchment of Israeli colonialism
• Claudia Prieto Piastro (mexican) the national identity of Israel has been partially built by using and appropriating cultural elements of the Other, another that is considered a deadly enemy. This ambiguity [..] results from a national identity built on the appropriation and renaming of some cultural elements of the native Palestinian population, and on denying the Arab origins of an important part of the Jewish population of Israel.
• Galia Press-Barnathan (israeli) and Ilan Zvi Baron (israeli/british/both.. not sure) The Israeli cookbooks surveyed do not deny the conflict with the Palestinians, nor that there are local Palestinian food cultures that have been appropriated by Israelis. In this sense, there is no denial that the Palestinians have suffered injustices. However, while the books do not deny the violence of the Israeli state and the cultural appropriation of Palestinian foods, the texts are simultaneously involved in producing a narrative whereby the appropriation is normalized as a condition by which Israel's diversity is able to show itself [...] even those books that do highlight the cultural appropriations necessary for there to be such a thing as Israeli cuisine, or those books that are based on the idea of food diplomacy, cannot escape the normalizing discourse.
• Roger Sheety (canadian) What is more fundamental to any people and its culture than its food? The stealing of Palestinian cuisine by the Zionist state has been just as shameless as its theft of Palestinian land [...] This is a typical strategy of Zionist cultural appropriation and usurpation
• Liron Mor (israeli) A similar logic underlies Israeli appropriation of Palestinian cuisine, which has exploded in popularity on recent years, in Israel as well as in the U.S. and Europe. [...] Absent so far from my account of cultural appropiation is an aspect of Israeli coloniality that all too often goes unnoticed-the role of Mizrahi Jews and of racialization more broadly. The Israeli culinary industry, for instance, appropiates not only Palestinian foods but also Jewish Middle Eastern and North African foods. It uses these Mizrahi traditions to whitewash the appropiation of Palestinian cuisine, despite considerable differences between the various cuisines involved.
• Nesrin Yavaş (turkish) Therefore, at the core of Israel’s systematic cultural appropriation of traditional Arab/Palestinian foods and Palestinians’ daily, deliberate manifestations of nationalism through their traditional foods lie competing claims to ownership of land, to history and sovereignty. Palestinian resistance to Israel’s systematic appropriation of Arab/Palestinian traditional dishes and to the Israeli colonial interferences manifested in the production, cultivation, circulation, and foraging of certain food items can be understood within the conceptual framework of the Palestinian national narrative sumud, and how culinary sumud, as I name it, intersects with Palestinian heritage making and heritage preservation on a daily basis
• Ben White (british) The Zionist colonisation of Palestine has also included culture, notably cuisine. This is the context for the so-called “hummus wars”: it is not about petty claims and counterclaims, rather, the story is one of colonial, cultural appropriation and resistance to those attempts. In the decades since the establishment of the State of Israel on the ruins and ethnically cleansed lands of Palestine, various elements of the indigenous cuisine have been targeted for appropriation: falafel, knafeh, sahlab and, of course, hummus. [...] Cuisine is where efforts to both deny the existence of Palestine and appropriate its land and heritage meet.

Found some more while compiling this, so I linked the articles. I don't know what the appropiate number of sources would be to note that the criticism comes from diverse groups. I also think one of the problems of the current sentence (and proposed too, I didn't wanna completely rewrite it so I didn't put much effort) is the use of "many" - we don't need to quantify the amount of criticism (how do we even do that?) to say that it exists. Could easily say critics/some critics/some, the point is to denote that it is not coming from a single group. - Ïvana (talk) 03:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Chickpeas

@Ariel.: In your last revert you said the linked citation makes no claim of there being such a thing as a "Palestinian chickpea" however the line in question doesn't say anything about a Palestinian chickpea; it is talking about a Palestinian version of the falafel which is made from chickpeas. The cited source states Falafel is generally made from fava beans (as in Egypt, where it is also known as Ta'amia), from chickpeas (the version traditional to Palestine and encountered in Israel today), or from a combination from the two. and also the Jewish population in Palestine -the early halutzim, or pioneers- adopted the local Arab version made with chickpeas which I believe supports The Palestinian chickpea version of the falafel has been adopted into Israeli cuisine. - Ïvana (talk) 02:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)