User talk:Crohnie/Archive 1

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Hi everyone

Italic textHi everyone, I am new which I assume you can tell! I really need a mentor as I am disabled and have serious trouble absorbing information I read which is long. I thought that maybe this site can help me stimulate my brain and teach me how to use this kind of site.

I have been lurking ever since Wiki made it to the newsgroups which I am sorry to say hasn't had very nice things at time about this site. I am not looking for trouble, which is usually not in my personality. I have looked at the the help stuff but I am having trouble retaining the information or understanding. I think I would be good with help with someone with patience.

I do have an idea of what I would like to put on my page. IBD (Iritable bowel disease is a monster in my opinon and there is no cure for it but unfortunately I have other medical problems that there is no cure for either so I have to take a lot of medication to keep things controled. If there is a mentor with a lot of patience I would really appreciate anyone help.

Thank you for listening to my babble, I hope to hear from someone soon. But I would love to give this all a try. I hope I am welcomed to do this. If there isn't a mentor who can help a disabled person learn, I really do understand, so be honest and tell me so.

Thanks again, 03:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Crohnie 03:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Hi, sorry for this mess. I am trying to understand but this is all new to me. If someone could delete my errors I really would apreciate it. I thought having an account kept personal info private but it is my faulty because I forgot to sign in. I really do want a mentor though that has patience with me, sorry don't know how to request one but I think it's on the main page but it's late now for me so I need to get to bed. Would deleting all of this make it easier or not? Anyways, I look forward to hearing from someone (s). Thanks again.

--Crohnie 03:44, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from ""


Hello. I'm sorry, but my plate is too full right now for me to be really useful to you as a mentor. You might want to look at WP:ADOPT, which is a more formal way to match new users up with more experienced ones who can help them out. Take a look, and if you're interested, go to your user page, edit it, and type {{Adoptme}} (in double-curly braces) at the top, then save it. That should bring a mentor your direction. Best of luck. MastCell 04:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate you responding. Have a nice day. --Crohnie 12:28, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


I noticed your addition to the Crohn's disease talk page and see that you are looking for someone to adopt you. I'd be glad to help out, though my schedule for the last few months has meant I'm not around as much. Feel free to ask me questions on my talk page or through e-mail if you prefer. It might take a day or two (at the most), but I'll try to point you in the right direction! InvictaHOG 18:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

A quick welcome

A quick welcome again to the wiki! Hope you enjoy being here. I'm a gastroenterologist who treats Crohn's disease, and it's a pleasure to have you aboard. Feel free to pop around WP:GI if you are looking for ways to help out! -- Samir धर्म 02:27, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Block quote

Thanks, I think I need to first learn how to respond. I don't think I am doing this right. Any help by anyone is always welcomed. Please be patient with me as I don't remember things well. Thanks again.--Crohnie 11:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Pyoderma gangrenosum

Hey, I saw your note on Talk:Pyoderma gangrenosum and left you a response there. Thanks for the offer! Peace, delldot | talk 08:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, if you need any help, don't hesitate to ask me on my talk page. I'm glad to adopt you if you haven't already found an adopter. Peace, delldot | talk 08:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Block quote

I am willing to take help anyway I can. I do have someone who has adopted me though and would like to give it a try with him/her. But if I make a mistake please don't hesitate to jump in to help. I have pictures on my computer but have no idea how to send them (I am allowed to share them) to you (they are very graffic and I still haven't learned how to put any kind of links in. I am not real technical and science is not in me but I would like to edit a few minor things on the crohn's page that I know is incorrect. Thank you for your time, --Crohnie 11:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Block quote

Sorry but how do I post without having blockquote? When I don't use it I end up with a pink box with a long string comment. Thanks,--Crohnie 11:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Read this first

If you haven't read some of the information on how to contribute, this link is a great place to start as far as the mechanics. As far as the block quote - you do not need to put that tag with each post. You simply need to start your comments at the far left side without any spaces. When you put a space in front of your post, it puts it in the little box. If you'd like to indent, use a colon like this : InvictaHOG 15:49, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I am so sorry for taking so long to return to respond but real life issues have kept me on the run with doctors and trying to work and all. I will take my time to understand the above link and will practice what is needed or at least test new things. I suspect the Sandbox is what I am to use for this kind of practice but I'll try to figure things out. I have never tried something this complicated on the computer before, no personal websites or anything so I think this is going to be very interesting and fun or very frustrating!  :) Thanks to all who will have the patience to help me along. I have been scanning through and reading a bunch of other's work and comments to help me too. --Crohnie 11:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia! Yes, this is a learning experience for all of us in many different ways. If you need any help or advice, don't hesitate to leave me a note on my talk page, or send me an email, using the link on the left side of my talk or user pages. You might benefit from having your own private sandbox, so I'll make one for you by simply making a link here: User:Crohnie/Sandbox You can then begin to experiment there. Once you have begun to use it, the link won't be red anymore. You can easily make subpages in your own private "User space" for any projects or notes. When editing you can see how colons are used to indent comments in threads or longer quotes in articles. (I have indented your comment above.) BTW, I share your concern about the Health freedom movement article. It's a huge link farm and sales brochure for quacks selling products, as well as paid employees of the huge food supplement industry. There are huge WP:COI issues there. -- Fyslee's (First law) 11:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
BTW, it might be a good idea to copy the link to your sandbox to a place where you can always find it easily. It can be on your user page or a resources page, which you can make, using the same procedure used to make it and the archives. That's also the same procedure used to make articles, IOW anyone can create a unique link and start an article very easily. The problem that then comes up is whether it is worth keeping the article, or will it get deleted? -- Fyslee's (First law) 16:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding COI

Yes, Ilena's editing behavior in areas where she has an obvious conflict of interest has confused many people. It may be settled in Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Barrett_v._Rosenthal, where the only remedy discussed so far is banning Ilena for six months. Just try not to let her get on your nerves and don't assume her behavior is appropriate. --Ronz 00:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. She can't get on my nerves because I don't care about this kind of thing. I don't like arguing nor do I handle stress because my crohn's flares up badly so I consider myself very easy going. I am just trying to learn things here and this all is totally new to me because I have never even done a website. I am getting some help from others and appreciate any help I can get. If you see me doing something wrong don't hesitate to fix it and if it need explaining let me know. My feeling will not get hurt! :) I responded to you about the link I was talking about and tried to post it with a cut and paste, but I don't think that's how to do it. Thanks again very much, --Crohnie 00:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
About being in a minefield - I feel the same way about certain editors and articles. It seems that many controversial articles, especially health-related ones, are venues for disruptive editing and point-of-view disputes. Hang in there! --Ronz 05:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it just gets confusing with the editing, put it in, take it out, you know. I thought the talk pages were for disagreements. --Crohnie 13:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

About being in a minefield - I feel the same way about certain editors and articles. It seems that many controversial articles, especially health-related ones, are venues for disruptive editing and point-of-view disputes. Hang in there! --Ronz 05:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it just gets confusing with the editing, put it in, take it out, you know. I thought the talk pages were for disagreements. --Crohnie 13:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately it does seem its a bit of a battle, but rest assured reality often wins out in the end. You just need to have patience and sometimes a thick skin. Some persistence helps as well :-) Shot info 23:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
It is neat how so many people can come together with totally different points of view (POV) and when it is all over - provided we followed all the rules - we end up with an article that is neutral (NPOV). Nobody wins, nobody loses. Remember, your POV is important and I am always glad to hear it. And don't be afraid to make your own edits. If somebbody doesn't like it, just back it up with a reliable source and see what happens. It's Fun! -- Dēmatt (chat) 14:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, it just gets confusing when the feuding and stuff starts. I am a calm person and really don't want to get involved in that kind of stuff so I think it makes me hesitant. --Crohnie 14:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I hear Ya! That is funny, it doesn't bother me as much because I have an Italian mother who ranted and raved most of my childhood:) I eventually learned that she was yelling because nobody was listening to her;) I also figured out that just because my mom and dad never agreed on anything, didn't mean either one was right. Remember, all we are here to do is report from verifiable and reliable sources and let the reader decide. You seem to have a good sense of fairness. Hold on to it. -- Dēmatt (chat) 16:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm Jewish but my parents liked to argue and said things they didn't really mean which made me nervous and stressed. I guess that is why I don't like to argue, you say things in the heat of the arguement and can't take it back, even apologizing still doesn't take the nastiness away.
I've asked before but is there a spell checker? I sure could use it.--Crohnie 21:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there is a spell checker here. You can try using your email program or a program like Word, then use it here. I use Outlook Express most of the time for saving and archiving stuff, including whole web pages, and for preparing stuff for inclusion here. It works fine. Sometimes I use it in Plain Text format, and other times in HTML format.
As far as NPOV goes, you can trust Dematt. He really understands it well. Even though we are sometimes on "opposite sides of the fence" on certain issues (he's a DC and I'm a PT), he is a great collaborator and editor. You don't need to fear that he'll delete your stuff because of POV motives. If he does, it's more likely because of policy or style matters, and that's perfectly proper. The deletion of other people's POV is a dangerous matter that very likely risks violating NPOV policy, so one should be very certain that there are clear policy violations that motivate any deletions or changes. -- Fyslee's (First law) 13:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks I'll give it a try. I only use outlook for newsgroups so I don't know if it will work with office. To be honest, I wasn't worried about being deleted by anyone, and if I am oh well. I am new so mistakes happen. I would never delete someone elses edits at this point unless it was clearly vandelism. The only deletion I have done so far is when I first started, I deleted my name on an article. :)--Crohnie 14:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

How do I archive?

My page is getting long, and the links to help me I have saved in my favorites so I would like to make this page a little smaller. Is it too soon to do this? Archiving is the way to do this right? Thanks for any information. --Crohnie 14:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll make one for you. You can then see my edits and see how I did it. -- Fyslee's (First law) 16:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Now you can move as much as you want and place it there. Usually it's a good idea to leave the last few threads, and certainly any active ones, in place. They can be archived later. When the archive page gets too large, you can make another one and follow the same procedure I used. Now go for it! -- Fyslee's (First law) 16:15, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!--Crohnie 17:37, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell me exactly how to do this? I tried move and it sends me to a page I don't understand and it doesn't look like the right location for me. I read the archive stuff, but it is way over my head right now. Is there a way to automatically get old threads archived so I don't have to deal with it though it's probabably better that I learn how to do it. --Crohnie 18:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

If you're talking about archiving, there is an automated bot (robot) that can do it for you, but it's best you learn to do it yourself, since this is a fundamental editing matter here, that you will need to understand in many other situations anyway. Therefore you may as well practice on your own user space. (You can subscribe to the bot service later if you wish.) To avoid losing information (which really can't happen, since you can just roll back in your edit history and find the material) I'd advise you to copy and paste, rather than clip and paste:
  1. Open this whole talk page for editing.
  2. Copy the material you wish to move.
  3. Click the "show preview" button at the bottom.
  4. Click the archive link at the top.
  5. Edit the archive, place the copied material there, and save the page. (Leave the existing template at the top of the editing area.)
  6. Now, if all has gone well, return to this talk page and delete what you have moved. It is no longer needed here.
Now you're done! If you have any questions or encounter problems, just ask.
To make this easier, open a new website page with this copy open, so you can read the instructions here, while doing all the editing in the other one.
Another tip to help you learn quicker: Get used to looking at the raw edit copy (what is visible when you look at a diff or are actually editing) before you read the finished version. That will teach you to read and interpret codes, which will also teach you how others make things look the way they do. When you see something you'd like to copy, look at the code by clicking "edit", but DON'T save it! You can copy it to your sandbox and play with it there. A number of wikicodes are much simpler to use than HTML codes, although they function much the same way. Even when you don't fully understand everything about coding, you can still do the most fantastic things by simply copying other people's code....;-) -- Fyslee's (First law) 20:25, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Just saying HI

Just a friendly Hiya from another Newbie. Hope you are enjoying your Wiki experience. It's kind of fun, Yes? I haven't made many edits because my learning curve is more on the down rather than up. Catch you later.Emilydcksn 08:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm learning too, slowly it seems to me. I hope to see you around. --Crohnie 11:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Move to archive after move to main page


Hello Crohnie! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Button sig.png or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing and above all else enjoy your time here! QuackGuru TALK 23:30, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
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Brewing storm

Here is what people have learned: as long as you don't say what you mean, you can later deny what you meant. I think that you are a very perceptive person; when you read what people write, you get what they mean and not just what they say. This is why you are picking up on the cruel undertones of the bitter storm churning right now on the edges of science. If I knew how to bring about a compromise that would satisfy people on both sides of these issues, I would. I'm sad about the way things are, too. But for right now, I'm not sure how to satisfy both sides. I think it will take some time before it becomes clear how this will be resolved. In the meantime, keep doing the good work that you do. This encyclopedia exists for and because of people like you, who are willing to put in the hard work to improve important articles like Crohn's disease. Very soon I'd like to be able to return to focusing on the content instead of bitter talk-page disputes, as well. Talk to you soon. Antelan talk 02:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

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I left a note on my talk page for you. I have no idea what is upseting you? Please clarify on my talk page. To simplify, can we keep this discussion on either my page or yours? Please let me know. Anthon01 (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I left a response on my talk page. Anthon01 (talk) 16:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't take the bait of assumptions of bad faith

I've seen a lot of editors make bad faith assumptions of others, mostly as a method of baiting and gaming the system. I recommend you get a third party involved when this happens, or at least make a mental note that they're acting from the perspective of assuming bad faith on your part. They're just trying to escalate conflicts, making the conflicts personal, to create an excuse for their own incivility. Best to keep cool and calm. --Ronz (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Do have any diffs where that happened. BTW, are you back? Anthon01 (talk) 03:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Are you talking to Ronz? --CrohnieGalTalk 00:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
If you mean was that message above yours left for Ronz's, the answer is yes. Feel free to comment if you wish. I will answer your comments on my talk page a little later. I am sorry those discussions upset you. Anthon01 (talk) 02:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to help

I took a quick first pass over the lead and made some edits for readability. One thing I don't think I did a good job on was "skip lesions" which probably should have its own article. I know next-to-nothing about this particular condition, so if any of the edits I made introduce misconceptions or incorrect wording, please feel free to edit them mercilessly. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:10, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Your comment on SA's page

I wish I could see it from your POV, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with this section.[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 (talkcontribs) 20:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Just curious

Hi Orangemarlin, I know complaints against you are plenty because some don't feel you are civil. I am curious though, how do you feel about what is going on in many location about Scienceapologist. I don't know you very well, other than our brief comments a while back and I didn't know anything about SA until recently. If you prefer to take this to email, please don't hesitate. I find that there is a lot of drama over the way editors state things. I am not the sensitive type that gets angry and runs to boards. If I have a probem or a question I go to the editor. Lately I've been spending my time reading the ANI board, ARB. amd other boards like this which seems to me to be totally out of control on some of the complaints and problems. Remember, just curious, you do not have to answer if you don't want to! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 00:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought I would answer you here, since I'm not sure if you watch my page. There are good guys that are getting sick and tired of the methods of POV-warriors. Look at JzG has said here and here. SA is just been pushed into a corner. So have I. So have others. Time to push back. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
Careful how you push back. Most of what they're doing is baiting others into misbehavior in an attempt to divert attention away from their disruptive editing. Don't take the bait. --Ronz (talk) 00:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Answering on OM talk page, and for the record I do have you on my watch list but wasn't sure if you had me on yours. Ronz, you are right about the baiting, I responded to that also on OrangeMarlins talk page. --CrohnieGalTalk 16:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

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Have you considered this?[2]Whig (talk) 00:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

There are some other herbs that might be helpful which may be easier to obtain, I hope this is not unwelcome.[3]Whig (talk) 00:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


User_talk:Jim_Butler is leaving. --Ronz (talk) 03:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow the editors are retiring in record speed of late. I haven't been on for a while, been real sick. I won't be here for long now either. I hope someone can get control here soon or I too won't waste my time on something that seems like a giant feud. Take care Ronz, I'll be back soon and see whats up. Please keep me informed of anything you think I would be interested in. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 21:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

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Done, I think

Ok, I put in the template. I have it so that it archives anything over 7 days old, and puts it into a new archive once an old one reaches more than 60 KB. Let me know if you'd like anything changed about that. I may have done it wrong, since I've never done it before. Hopefully it will start working soon, let me know if it doesn't. I assume it will work on the stuff that was already here, but I'm not actually sure. Anyway, let me know how it turned out either way! Peace, delldot on a public computer talk 02:37, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, well the good news is I think I actually figured out how to properly archive finally! --CrohnieGalTalk 11:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, it hasn't done anything yet, hopefully it will in a bit. Maybe I was wrong that it will do stuff that was on here before I added the template. Drop me a note in a coupled days either way to let me know. Peace, delldot on a public computer talk 12:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok will do, it took the Wernabot a few days to start up too so be patient! :) Listen to me telling you to be patient, you have to be the most patient editor here! --CrohnieGalTalk 12:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ha ha! Crohnie, you're always so sweet :) delldot on a public computer talk 12:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, it's not doing anything and on my talk page it doesn't have this [4] which I think it should be on the top of my talk page. Boy, they could make it much easier to use these things couldn't they? Anyways, I know you are watching my page so I am letting you. Please give me your thoughts. --CrohnieGalTalk 14:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Made a response on your talk page. Things are probably ok, I need a fifth title to see if it works! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 11:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Crohn's & Pregnancy

Hey, thanks for that info. I'll send it to my doctor. --Westendgirl (talk) 06:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Regards CD and pregnancy, note that WP:MEDRS applies and popular press should not be linked. Pubmed has lots of information (i.e. [5]) and a simple search with Crohn and pregnancy turned up 58 articles, each with an abstract. Each pubmed article is also accompanied by a pubmed number (next to the PMID) which can be used to generate a citation template very easily using diberry's citation generator. Also the Google scholar autocitation, a google-style search engine and reference generator, is very useful when the article doesn't have a pubmed number (old, social sciences or humanities). Also, wikipedia is not a how to manual, so information on how to read bloodwork isn't really appropriate (and I don't think meets MEDRS). Crohn's disease is a valid medical diagnosis, so it's important to provide the best medical information available from the most reliable sources. Accurate and reliable information is the most useful thing for wikipedia's readers, and that is available primarily from peer-reviewed journals. WLU (talk) 19:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


Here's a number six to see if my auto archive is working! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 11:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Crohn's disease

Hey Crohnie, great work. Some suggestions:

  • I noticed in one of your edits, you wrote " can reduce symptoms and lengthen remissions, and help you enjoy a productive life style..." You should not use "you" in articles, they should not address the reader. You could say "people with Crohn's" or something instead.
  • Also, this sounds kind of like it's advocating for something, so I'd leave this part of the sentence out altogether, stating just the facts: "it can reduce symptoms and lengthen remissions."
  • Most minorly, I think "lifestyle" is one word.
  • From this edit, I noticed you put a fact in front of an existing reference. You should be very careful when doing this to make sure that the fact is in all references you put it in front of, or it will look in the article as though you're using them as the citation, so it would be misrepresenting them. If you put a new fact in front of an old reference that is in the reference, you should say so in your edit summary so other editors can be sure that's what you did and won't have to double-check to make sure the fact is in there.
  • From this edit, you accidentally added information within a reference. You should make sure that what you're adding comes after the </ref> tag, or it will be included in the reference at the bottom of the page.
  • Good job with informative edit summaries
  • Good catches on the typos!
  • With this edit, you probably shouldn't call a site "good", since it sounds POV. Just provide the site, and let the reader assume that you think it's good since you included it. I would include external links only in the external links section.
  • Looks like the info you're adding is good. You should always provide a source, even if you're very sure of it. If you have trouble with the <ref></ref> tags, you can put the source's info on the talk page and someone will put it in. I would hold off on adding info until you do have a source for it. Looks like you were trying to add [citation needed] tags to some sentences? The template is {{cn}} (look at your actual talk page, not the diff).

I was very nitpicky in order to provide the most info. Basically your edits look good, I can tell you worked hard on them! The article is lucky to have you working on it :) delldot on a public computer talk 02:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey thanks for the honesty. Even the little things are important so I can learn to do it the right way. I have moved your comments over to my sandbox front page just in case the automated archive starts working. So far I have more than 5 titles going but it hasn't done anything but I'll still take the wait and see attitude. I don't know if I will get to it today to start fixing the suggestions you made because I have a doctor appointment in 45 min. but I will get back to work on it as soon as time allows, and the weather. :) It's pouring right now! :) Thanks for taking the time to look at what I did. I really appreciate you taking the time to go through it all and coming back to me in such detail. Thank you very much, I hope what I do when I get to it will make you proud to be my mentor. --CrohnieGalTalk 14:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Oops, Delldot has provided on a lot of the same things I cite above in the pregnancy section. WLU (talk) 19:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
regards your archive, I think you have 7 days since the newest comment in the section, so you've got at least a week to go for this one. And the whole reason we archive is so the information is easily accessible - in your archive! Nothing is lost on wikipedia. WLU (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for stopping by WLU, I responded to you on your talk page because I don't know if you are set up to see my page. Delldot, I deleted what you stated and since the title Pregnancy and Crohn's disease got deleted I put in a paragraph that I think reads better and falls in with policy. [6] I am ready for anyone thoughts as I am really trying hard to do this right. --CrohnieGalTalk 00:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I know you are Crohnie, you're doing fine. I'm bringing up little stuff because there's nothing big to criticize. Here's some suggestions for the latest edit:
  • "Men who have Crohn's disease should also talk to the doctor about all medication" reads kind of like advice, which articles are not supposed to give. I might rephrase it to state who recommends this. If it's widely recommended or common practice, then you can say that if you cite a source. The same thing applies to wording like "It is best to talk to...", in the next sentence.
  • Also about the above sentence, you might leave it out altogether as being kind of generic; aren't patients always advised to see their doctors about medication? Either that or make it more specific.
  • Minor point, in that same paragraph, I would move "Some women can go into remission during pregnancy" up to be with the other info on pregnancy in the paragraph, before the more general sentences about medication.
You really are doing fine Crohnie, thanks again for all your hard work. Peace, delldot on a public computer talk 06:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Delldot, I am not getting frustrated at all and I really appreciate advice from others. I am learning things I did not know like the post above from WLU. I am working an article that I know I have strong POV about and not a lot of science or medical knowledge except personal experiences. So having others eyes on me is all 'good' to keep it honest and it also helps me learn and try to think things through a little better. So I do like all help and if I feel stressed about anything I will take a time out first before allowing this to make me ill. I'm having fun so far. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 12:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

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It's in this section. I could have just said the 'pregnancy' section above, but I loves the fancy linking. WLU (talk) 12:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I'm working on the CD treatment section now, have a look at what I do (I'll post a message once I'm done). Much of what I'm adjusting is the WP:TONE of the section, which is an odd thing to master and I've no real advice. You just know what a proper wikipage tone is like after a while (in my experience, and I'm not the boss of wikipedia). One thing that would be of great help to the page - I believe this link refers to a study done. Generally popular summaries should be avoided, particularly in isolation. If you can find the journal article that published the study, you can use one reference to link to both - first the journal, the preferred and most reliable source, then the lay summary afterwards.
Another note, here is an essay I wrote to new editors, you might find it interesting, possibly amusing. It's a rather lengthy, but broad overview of my experience editing wikipedia in the first couple months. WLU (talk) 12:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks that was fun reading. I have a dr appt soon so I am going to be gone soon here. I will take a look though at what you are doing when I get back. Thanks again, --CrohnieGalTalk 14:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm done for now at least, have a look at some of my changes. You can use a diff-by-diff approach, but one thing the page appears to need is a good read-through from beginning to end to see where there is duplication and info in the wrong sections. Be sure to look at, refer to and use the medical manual of style as it is the most relevant reference. Just remember, the best sources are pubmed journals. The CCFA links and other various advocacy groups (and their press releases) are...ok... but think of where they get their information from - pubmed journals, peer-reviewed books, and generally reliable sources (and this article should only use the most RS - WP:MEDRS). Websites like WebMD, Medline and the on-line Merck manual are adequate for basic information, but sites like tend to be mirrors of wikipedia or other unreliable sources. My rule of thumb is, if it has a wikipedia page, it's a candidate. If the wikipage says its reviewed, it's better. But if it's the National Institutes of Health or WHO or United Nations, it's best. That's as far as websites, peer-reviewed journals are still pretty much the best. WLU (talk) 14:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

from my talk

Hi Crohnie, what EBDCM is saying there is that anything that treats pain is affecting the nervous system, which is part of the brain. Since we know that the brain affects health, it should follow that treating pain affects health because it affects the nervous system which affects the brain. You pretty much already know this, as when you are feeling pain you have a difficult time concentrating and everything in life is less enjoyable, this is what we mean when we say health and well-being. IF we can find a way to decrease pain, we can improve health and well-being. The controversy, of course, is whether chiropractic really does this. That is why the effects of spinal manipulation is such a controversial issue, first we have to prove it affects the nervous system, then we can make claims as to its affects. The problem is that spinal manipulation has been around since before scientific thinking. The last 30 years have been spent proving its value in decreasing pain. The question that has to be proven now is that, even if there is no pain, does spinal manipulation improve health through some other mechanism besides pain relief. There is some primary research that says there might be some affects, but the jury is still out. But overall, the least that chiropractors are doing is decreasing pain, which I am sure everyone agrees has some value. I'll email you about your son. -- Dēmatt (chat) 17:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Responded on your talk page, thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 16:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment for ye

Regards this edit, since this is a page about a medical condition, 'Joe random website' is not a suitable source for anything (it's why we have WP:MEDRS). Also, if you would have preferred the text removed, you are within your rights per WP:PROVEIT. Fact tagging is OK if you wish to assume good faith, but if you think it's bunk (and I do), then it can be flatly removed. On the other hand if you think there's merit, then the page would be improved by replacing the information sourced to a reliable document. WLU (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Commenting on your talk page! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 20:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Liar, I see no orange box! Incidentally, you don't need to, you can respond here if you prefer the discussion centralized (the only real advantage to using my talk page is it gets my attention; since I'm usually fairly assiduous in checking my watchlisted talk pages). WLU (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I'll keep it here then. Liar??? I hope this is a joke or sarcasm! ;) I mean I am not super women so you need to give me enough time to write so your little orange box shows up! :) You are fun to talk to the way you put things at times. Oh by the way, the article is looking real good. I haven't finished reading it, slow ranger here, but so far it's looking good. Maybe we (you mostly since you busted your behind on the article) will get the attentions it deserves sometime soon! Thanks, WLU, --CrohnieGalTalk 20:20, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, it was indeed a joke. I now know if you promise me a reply, I will do two things a) expect one b) bide my time as you take care in your composition.
I'm about done with CD actually - most of my changes were superficial and I don't think I've added any real content. Keep reading, slow is thorough. I'm only fast on my edits because I've got a lot of experience and I know how articles should look. Creating the Jefferson fracture page took me an entire day - substantive changes and page creation are much more tedious and time consuming than my piffling MOS re-orders. WLU (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Hey I knew you were joking and I hope my reply showed that. Don't worry at all, I got a good laugh over it and enjoyed it! Laughter is good and I need it also so all is good. I use my Outlook to compose my responses or whatever so that it corrects my spelling and so on. I enjoy your postings; you have a special way about you and what you say. I like that. Oh and one more thing, don't under estimate what you did for the Crohn's article. It needed a lot of clean up in a lot of areas and you did an excellent job doing it. I know it helped me a lot, I learned a lot from you and the way you edited and changed things. You are a good editor and a fun one too, so I am glad to have met you! Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 20:46, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Others would disagree (I'm thinking about you wikistalker! I see you eyeing my comments). Two things, 1) Firefox has a built-in spell-check in addition to it's many phantasmagorical features 2) if you've any further questions feel free to ask me, or if you wanted to bring my attention to something. Helping other editors inflates my sense of self-importance. WLU (talk) 21:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey but I wikstalk nicely and politely! :) I don't have Firefox on my computer. My hubby keeps track of my computer and programs and so forth and I don't think he would allow me to put it on my computer to be honest. I have a way of getting myself in trouble when I put things on my computer!:) My computer is mostly Microsoft stuff. Using Microsoft outlook works ok for the types of things I do for spell checking anyways. You are still an enjoyment to me when I hear from you. You are a lot different in style then anyone else I have met here. So please don't disappear on me completely! --CrohnieGalTalk 15:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

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Crohnie, you're the sweetest person ever. It's been a wonderful experience getting to know you and being able to be of help when you need it :D delldot talk 12:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you so much Crohnie, that is definitely one of the kindest and most wonderful things anyone has said to me in my entire time on the project. delldot talk 12:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Well I guess ocassionally I'll have to surprise you with a smile or a cookie to let you know how wonderful you are! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 21:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi - re Crohns

Sorry to see it is a very "personal" issue then. Looked at User page too. It is funny, I actually know someone who was on the original drug-discovery team for Adalimumab, before they were bought by giant Abbott, but I met him while looking to buy a Used Car (his license plate read "HUMIRA", which I found astonishing). At first I thought it must be a worshipping patient ....I am trying to work on MS in the next 1-2 days, will come back to Crohns later.....w/ (talk) 20:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well he is a "lab" guy (I seriously considered buying the BMW he was trading in), and so he does not see the clinical effects. At the time, the focus was on RA, and it seems the effect in CD is a lucky after-thought. Unfortunately (because failure to one may not be a good sign for success in the other) it is very like Infliximab, which you may have experienced ? (I ask because obviously no-one takes surgery lightly) Are you in USA or UK ? I know I saw a USA message-board on CD at some point, you could ask Humira expereince there ? (talk) 21:22, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I am working on treatment of multiple sclerosis which is going great with contributions from others, take a look at the Discussion page there for a "Relative Efficacy" table we are about to transfer after a few weeks of touching-up, as really patients (and perhaps doctors) are bewildered by the choices. I am also working on the natalizumab page which also contributions from others but with the opposite effect - it is very contentious as a more senior Wiki guy (not an Admin) prefers to make Deletions first and Discuss later, and appears to have a raging agenda that the drug is a safety time-bomb despite all evidence to contrary. Are you in USA - elsewhere I think (UK maybe)- was wondering if you heard of it ? - this is the same natalizumab that was approved for Crohns in USA a few months back, and it is not in the TNF-alpha class, so it should open new options to CD (talk) 20:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
OK - yes it is amazing - better not write more on that subject though...are you in touch with other crohnies ?...I think that education is important as the medical paradigm is changing quickly, improving but I don't know exactly how fast, and hardly fast enough for (talk) 21:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Incidentally, the fellow with the raging agenda is me. WLU (talk) 21:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Well all I can say to that (smile), play nice! ;) On a little more serious WLU is really good at working a medical article and I have been taking notes of his suggestions so that hopefully some day I too will get good at editing like he does. --CrohnieGalTalk 22:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for delay, not enough time in the day - yes rather than ping-pong, please pick a page or send me your email address (talk) 23:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

No problems ever with delays responding to me. I am never in that much of a hurry! ;) Ok, how about we keep it here for now and it we decide we can move to your later on in another thread. My email is activate though after the 13th of this month it will be down, my whole computer will be, but I will put up my new address when I know it. Sound like a plan?--CrohnieGalTalk 21:45, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I will come back to this page, too busy at other things, hope move goes (talk) 16:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Barnstars survey

Hi Crohnie. I'm running a small survey about wikipedian barnstars. If you have the time, I would really appreciate you taking a look and participating. The survey can be found here. Thank you! Bestchai (talk) 22:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

For those of you who watch my talk page

I hope people are watching my page anyways! :) My computer will be shut down tomorrow as it is moving day. I thought I would be shut down already but as you can see, here I am. It should take a couple of days to get everything set up with our computers and setting up new accounts with a new server. I hope I am missed a little! ;) (grinning) I maybe able to come check on things with hubby's lap or mom's computer. But anyways, play nice (joking sorta ;)) and I'll miss you. Please, if anything is going on that I should be aware of or that you think would be of interest to me, please post it on my page so I am aware. I am kind of a junkie here I guess, who isn't! I hope those of you I know haven't being feeling well are now feeling great. Those of you who I email with or anyone who wants to email me still can with the e-mail this user. I will be able to access this account for a little while. Well I am babbling, sorry. I've been in hyper drive now for a few days trying to get this and that done. So my final comment until I return is this, I wish all of you happiness, good health and no edit problems. Please take care, --CrohnieGalTalk 21:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

How 'bout I put up {{wikibreak}} for you? WLU (talk) 23:10, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much WLU for this. I didn't have time to hunt the Wikibreak template down, I appreciate you setting it up for me. I hope you are well. I will be on briefly since I have a lot of unboxing to do and my cat is finally coming home today so he will need a lot of attention. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 17:28, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


Hey Crohnie, I'm taking a month-long wikibreak, I'll be back April 18 (It's gonna suck! I have to see how addicted I really am to Wikipedia. More details about that on my user page). I can ask someone to take over as your mentor for the month if you want, just email me. If that doesn't work out, you can post questions to the help desk or ask any admin. You can also email me, but I won't be editing at all for the month :-( I'll miss you, but see you in a month! Peace, delldot talk 11:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC) By the way, I loved your note the other day! I smile every time I think of it!

Dell, enjoy your break better than the break I just took. I just moved and still have boxes everywhere so I won't be on here much during your break probably. If I need something urgent, which I am happy to say doesn't happen that often as you know, I know where to find you! I sent you my new email address but as of yet I really don't have it set up yet. Hubby is supposed to do that today, maybe tomorrow though I do have a way on line to look and see. Anyways, have fun during your break and I will peek in to see if you are as addicted to Wiki as I am! ;) I will miss you though, remember, think good thoughts, have fun, and stay healthy my friend. You are a darling as always, --CrohnieGalTalk 17:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

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Irritable_bowel_syndrome Check WP:EL --CrohnieGalTalk 01:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

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Your idea

I'd be honored. :) DurovaCharge! 16:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

List of CD bodies

Hi, hope you are doing well, and also I hope the house did not fall off the trailer when you moved it  :0) .... anyway I did this following deletion of similar from bottom of CD page by parallels MS bodies...comments...later.io_editor (talk) 19:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, the move went well and the house is still standing! ;) I crashed and burned from over doing of course and I am now trying to heal my insides and get rid of a really bad cold that I just had to share with my beloved husband! :)
Do I understand that you crashed and burned the trailer, but the house landed on its feet?............ Danica Patrick, step aside....io_editor (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I did see the link you added and the others deleted. I think the wikilink should hold but the rules about medical articles and what is and is not acceptable is quite confusing to me to be honest.
Well I had seen the MS parallel page. Also saw the caregiving page in the last 20 minutes. It seems to be almost routine. I suppose it gets hard to draw the line if bloggers add theirs. But the MS page looked good.io_editor (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I am trying at this time with the help of a wonderful editor to add some Pyoderma gangrenosum pictures to the medical articles. And if I am able, I would like to research this disease again, it's been since 2002 since I actually did any research on it, to try to update and expand the article stub. --CrohnieGalTalk 15:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I assume you mean add PG images to the CD page, maybe UC page. I will check, but I almost dread to look.io_editor (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I have the images already, I just need her help to down load the images correctly.--CrohnieGalTalk 11:39, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

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Woo Hoo!

I made it through another year still being vertical! SCongratulate.gif Symbol thumbs up color.svg It's been a long hard year for me but I have to say that I am very pleased and have lots of love in my heart for everyone who has help and supported me here and with my family! Symbol heart vote.svg

Again I would like to thank everyone for helping me when I needed it (and even when I didn't know I needed help.). Thank you everyone and good health and happiness to all of you. --CrohnieGalTalk 19:25, 11 April 2008 (UTC) PS: I figured I would practice using the images.

I think I know what you mean. May I humbly be the first here to say thanks for your out-reach, congrats on being resolute, and congrats on progress too.io_editor (talk) 22:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


Hi Crohnie,

Regards this diff, check WP:ENGVAR - authorisation is a valid spelling, but in the UK and former colonies. Engvar is pretty vague, but basically if it's an article that's mostly about a US subject, it gets the 'z'; if it's mostly british, 's'. This is only a bit of interesting info - I think your change to natalizumab was suitable as it's mostly a drug developed and approved in the states. WLU (talk) 14:59, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

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Natalizumab side effects

Hi Crohnie,

I read your post on talk:natalizumab, which dealt with side effects. My vague recollection was that you had a citation and write-up for the non-PML and liver side effects of natalizumab that is more specific than the current 'fatigue and allergic reactions' (i.e. rash, etc). I have a part request, part suggestion - I think it would be very good for you as an editor to be bold! and add both the expanded list of specific side effects and the citation to the page. The best way to learn on wikipedia is to do, that is, to edit. The page has active oversight from several experienced editors, so if you do make an error, it will be noticed in short order and corrected (myself, being an admitted wikiholic, will probably notice it within a couple hours).

You don't have to, you've said before that you don't want to add stress because of wikipedia. Though engaging on talk pages is a big part of wikipedia, it just isn't as fun as editing a main page. Errors can be reverted, and I've no doubts of your good intentions. I also have no doubt that your careful analysis and excellent writing skills would be an asset to mainspace as well as talk pages. I could probably add the info myself fairly easily, but as I said, practice is instructive and invaluable. If you'd prefer, you could draft a section based on what you already have on your sandbox, and I could gander at it to let you know if there's any adjustments I think would be beneficial, then you could paste it yourself into the page.

My efforts in this are not solely for your benefit - wikipedia needs knowledgeable editors who can interpret and apply sources and policy, as well as being able to work with other editors calmly and civily. Wikipedia's not that scary, and there's always an undo button, please be our Obi-Wan and help us! WLU (talk) 17:43, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I commented on the talk page as the information about the liver damage possibilities is now in the article by someone. Sorry I disappeared but I do so when I am too ill to be on line. I think I addressed some of the major issues being discussed at this time, mainly WP:Weight for the serious side effects, also the chart and other comments that you can read on the talk page. Some of the posts are so long and technical that to be honest it's really hard to catch up on discussions there. I know I should be WP:Bold with my editing but I am a layperson just trying to get medical articles written so that people like me with no medical background can understand and follow the links to learn more. The rules for putting information into medical articles are kind of hard for me to follow and understand. I guess you can say that I am like many who try to educate myself about things but tend to go to sites that don't give even balance, which I am learning better to do with just following article changes and working on the talk pages to help with consensus. I posted the information I found about liver damage on the talk page because at the time it seemed it was being heavily debated on the talk page and being reverted enough not to try to put it into the article until a consensus was made. I think now from my readings that a consensus to put in the major damage that can be caused is now done and there should no longer be any debates about undue weight. --CrohnieGalTalk 15:47, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, curious. The rules for adding content are basically the same for medical and non, MEDRS just means it has to be a more reliable source (scientific journals, position statements and review articles from big organizations, but the sources you cited in your analysis were perfectly good). That's my interpretation, but I've spent a ridiculous amount of time here.
You're not the only layperson BTW, I didn't know natalizumab from Natalie Portman before January, all of my efforts are based on read and summarizing the sources I've managed to find. Lack of expertise isn't really a barrier 'cause everyone is limited by what the sources say.
The reasons I asked you were four-fold - a) you have a very good grasp of written english b) you're quite personable :) meaning you come across as very neutral and base your comments on sources c) you're the extant expert on non-liver/PML side-effects of natalizumab because you've read the sources! and d) I thought you might like the practice with someone to check your work shortly after you finish (takes away the scary part about being wrong). Obviously I can't force you to edit, I'm just trying to nudge you so after a bit of editing you'll get some more confidence in your abilities and hopefully be more active in adding to main pages. I think you'd be a good editor and an asset to wiki.
Anyway, it's of course your choice, and if you don't wish to edit the main article I may ruthlessly mine your sources and do it myself. Even adding the article and your analysis saves me a large amount of time and effort, so thanks! WLU (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the nice comments, I really appreciate it. I am thinking of being a bit bolder. I am reading the Remicade article since it was recommended and said to be an excellent article. Well I don't think it's totally balanced. There are gaping holes in the information there. As an example, under the Crohn's section it states the different types of CD that occur and Remicade is not to be used for people with stricturing because the drug heals to quickly and causes the scarring to be more extreme thus causing the stricture to be more. This is where I am at now, strictures are my main problem along with mild activities, but I cannot do Remicade do to the stricturing and the blockages I get all the time which I battle with. So, I am now trying to find sources to show that Crohn's patients with stricturing problems should not use Remicade treatments. The article doesn't have a section for side effects though some of the side effects are dispersed through the article but they are pretty much buried in a sea of words. People want to know side effects, or I guess I should say possible side effects to make decisions. This drug is a wonder drug for a lot of people I know with IBD, but there are others who have bad experiences do to things like stricturing disease. To be honest, I didn't think that my sources would be excepted! :) It's nice to know I did do the corrrect research! You are welcomed to use anything I find that I just post up for information, I don't mind and just so you know, I don't have a fear of being reverted, or anything of this sort, I guess my main concern is I want to improve the article, not damage it or cause problems with others. --CrohnieGalTalk 16:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Reading your reply, I was cringing until I saw "...I am now trying to find sources to show that Crohn's patients..." at which point I went "Ah, Crohnie grok". My recommendation is to always start at; the search feature is OK, and virtually any source you find there should be acceptable. Once you find an article, diberri allows you to create a template in seconds that is error-free. It does also depend on the information; for relatively innocuous side effects like the ones you found for natalizumab you could probably leave it unsourced (though a source is preferred and more helpful to readers in most cases).
If the page lacks a side effects section, check out WP:MEDMOS - there's supposed to be. Though Infliximab is excellent according to who? The page is not a featured article and seems wildly out of line with MEDMOS. Changes like reordering per MEDMOS, in addition to being a good exercise for editing, should improve the page. If you'd really like the practice in a stress-free and safe place, create a sandbox for infliximab and do your editing there, then ask for an opion when you're done. From there it's ridiculously easy to just past your perfect sandbox into the main article space. WLU (talk) 16:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Wow I just got locked out for maintenance I think! Not going to write it again now. Going off line now for awhile before my hubby gets angry. ;) --CrohnieGalTalk 17:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Locked out of editing and an angry spouse. Sounds like my Tuesday night :) I frequently fight over the computer and feel your pain. Sometimes they just don't realize how important wikipedia is :P A friend of mine sent me this a while ago. I think it captures my hobby perfectly. As for lockouts, they rarely last longer than a minute - just keep hitting edit/save until it goes through. WLU (talk) 17:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Good morning, I loved the link. I have to share that one with others! What I was going to say when my computer got locked out was I really appreciate your help with me. I am not a newbie on Wikipedia but my skills here are that of someone who just started with a slow learning curve to remember how to do the editing. But I keep trucking on and keep with the reminders so when I have a brain fart, I can go to my sandbox and remember how to put it. I also was going to say I love the way you edit. Your edits are usually fun to read, never boring. I enjoy that and find I remember what you say much easier because you usually give me a smile or laugh while helping. Thanks for that, --CrohnieGalTalk 11:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Fun to read? You must be talking about my talk page postings 'cause my mainspace are usually so NPOV I see them as dull. I really, really wish we had that image on the Wikimedia Commons - I'd replace the current picture on my talk page in a second.
Anyway, irrespective of your decision to edit, please feel free to ask me questions or for any feedback you'd like. I'll do my best to be neutral and refer to any policies I feel are appropriate. Just remember that my opinion will usually be more extreme than most editors - my interpretation of policies and guidelines tends to be quite literal, strict and inflexible. There's usually more wiggle room than my interpretation. WLU (talk) 15:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes I do mean your talk page edits, your article page edits I find to be very professional and well sourced. I find you to be a very excellent editor. I have to admit I am surprised that you aren't an administrator but I would totally understand why you would not want that position too!;) Feel free to keep an eye on me and make suggestion, revert or whatever. I don't allow this place to stress me out at all and I don't get offended easily either. I am here to stimulate brain cells and to have fun. When that stops happening then I will move on to something else. --CrohnieGalTalk 18:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
People don't seem to realize how easy editing is - find a source, summarize it, then cite it. Most of my disputes I try to resolve with sources, which is why I like medical articles and really kinda hate popculture stuff. I'm actively avoiding adminship because I'd be far too quick on the blocks and this way I'm forced to refer to policy. Plus, at this point I think I've pissed off enough editors that I don't know if I'd pass (I have a tendancy towards hypervigilance on pages I run into disputes on). I'm unlikely to check your contribs 'cause I don't consider you a problematic editor, which is why I will re-state my willingness to respond to questions. I probably won't see any 'mistakes' you might make unless it's on a page I'm already watching. But if I do, I'll drop you a line, either to point out how it could be improved, or that I've improved the page already. Happy trails, WLU (talk) 18:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


Nope, looks like I'm going ahead. Will RFC/U instead, possibly tomorrow or Monday. In the meantime, I'll be building a case here. Feel free to add if you'd like, please separate into your own section though. WLU (talk) 17:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


This is in response to your note at Natalizumab: Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategy (REMS) is a new set of paperwork for the US FDA. You basically explain why your drug, even though it's not perfectly safe, is worth keeping on the market. An approvable REMS is expected to say something like "Hardly anybody uses this drug anyway, they're all going to die if they don't get our drug, the nastiest side effects are rare anyway, and besides all that, if the doc runs this test every month, then the problem will be caught early, while it's still reversible" -- or something like that, except that you say it at much, much, much greater length, and with the details depending on the actual problems with the specific drug in question. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:23, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing the question I had. You are saying that I am going to have to explain the side effects and why I want to keep them in use? What if I'm not getting any major side effects? I just tell that? I am on the Actiq and I also have the patch but I don't think the fentalyn listed was in regards to the patch. As you can see I don't know much about this so I appreciate understanding all of this since I am do for a refill here soon. --CrohnieGalTalk 11:45, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


Hi Crohnie, I was going to post a long explanation of what a diff is, but then I reviewed your carefully thought-out prose and relized I was reading too quickly again and had missed the point. So the only thing I'll say here is the easiest way I've found to check through diffs is to load up the contribution history of the individual in question and use WP:POPUPS preview feature. Popups are great and very useful in general, though not as good as Hodgepodge (which unfortunately doesn't work very well with internet explorer). WLU (talk) 14:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey now that is so cool to me, thanks! I wasn't sure at first what it was going to do until I hit a diff and it brought up a box of info. I didn't even notice the stuff on my preferences until now. Well I noticed it when I first got here but not knowing what it was about I didn't do anything with any of it. I just got some things changed so maybe I will be bolder now that I am seeing a whole bunch more info that I assume a lot of editors have been using to help them out. Thanks so much, you made my day, actually today has been one excellent day for me. I feel good, I've been laughing and having fun over stupid little things but hey, I'm vertical, doing things and having a good time doing it so to me it's a wonderful day! :) I guess you can say I am easy to amuse! Smile-tpvgames.gif --CrohnieGalTalk 17:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Must be sunny where you are too :) I had my windows open all weekend for the first time in months. Fuckin' Canadian winters :P WLU (talk) 18:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
It was hot and humid here, somewhere in the 80's. We had the windows open this morning until about 11 because it was beautiful and around 60. Then it got hot, windows got shut and the a/c has been going ever since. ;) I'm in Florida. I here you about Canada, you do have some different weather than I even know. I am one of those infrequent people who has never even seen snow before. When a net friend told me about her winters there I had a hard time picturing it. I had another friend in Michigan that sent pictures of her snow days for about two years.  :) --CrohnieGalTalk 21:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
I was in Florida in Feb, got myself a couple bags of oranges and went to Disneyland. You have TERRIBLE roads! I was considering writing your congressman! The same road has three different names on three different maps, curse you! In Calgary it snowed all weekend. That's an anomaly, Canada's not actually a year-round frozen wasteland. Now it's around 72, very comfy. A real winter is definitely something worth living through, if nothing else than to appreciate summer again :) WLU (talk) 22:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
You weren't that far from me, maybe four hours. I'm in Palm Beach County. The roads are always under construction. It's horrible, none of the intellegent (and I use this term sarcastically) thought that working a road or two at a time would be easier to keep things moving. Around here it like all the roads are being done, yet very seldom do you see anyone in those big expensive trucks! The main highways that are used, they had the brilliant idea to change the Sunpass and enlarge the roads and move the exits all at the same time. This is wonderful for prime time driving, not! Contacting someone doesn't do any good. The usual lines are we are out of budget money, we are behind schedule and so on.  :) If you come down this way next time, maybe you'll get close enough so I can buy you a cup of coffee. (sorry no alcohol for this lady! :))--CrohnieGalTalk 22:45, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


Hi Crohnie,

I've never used twinkle, sorry! No real advice. You said 'OE', I assume you mean 'IE', internet explorer? That's the terrible abortion of a program I am forced to use as well. I have installed Popups, from what I've seen it's less useful than Twinkle but I still find it very handy.

If you install popups (as easy as going to preferences > gadgets > click the Popups box, in my day it was harder, and you really appreciated it when it worked! Damn kids with their cellphones and their easy gadgets clickboxes...) then it allows one-click reverting. When you hover the cursor over the 'diff' in watchlist, or over a specific edit in the history or mainpage during a diff, it'll give you an option 'rv' (it's pretty cramped in my version - it shows up as

contribs * log * count * email

Play around with popups on your talk page or a sandbox for a bit until you get used to it - it's not hard to figure out at all, but a bit of practice will save you reverting to the wrong version. I'm still figuring things out with it, and it's pretty handy. I'm not sure how it works, but there's also an option to rollback which is one-touch and quicker than a revert. See WP:ROLL.

Really, to fully take advantage of the tools you pretty much have to switch to Firefox. If you have the option, I heartily recommend it, I've always found firefox much better than the Windows equivalent. WLU (talk) 14:23, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi there! I noticed your message over at WLU's Talk page, and, in case you're interested, you now have rollback rights. Use them wisely ;) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 15:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you. I will check on the roll back feature to see how to get it, use it. WLU, I have the Popup features thanks to you telling me about it a little earlier! ;) I will have to practice though with the popup features though from the sounds of it. Fvasconcellos, with the small amount of editing I do, not WP:Bold enough as I have been told, ;), I will check into the rollback rights Thanks again. --CrohnieGalTalk 16:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Wah! I want rollback rights! What's involved? From what I know BTW, it's basically a quick version of a revert.
Crohnie, I've got a somewhat awkward favour I was wondering if you could help with - do you by chance have access to a picture of natalizumab, the vial or packaging? It'd be really nice to get an image in the infobox at the top of the page but there's to date no molecular model available from which to draft a picture. Failing that, a picture of the packaging is an adequate substitute. I don't think you're taking N, but do you know someone who is? Could you ask your doctor if you could snap a photo? Are you on web fora somewhere? The image use rights are pretty complicated and I HATE THEM, but as far as I know, if you or someone else takes a picture and uploads it basically with 'I took this picture and I release the rights so it can be used by anyone for anything', it's OK. One obvious concern is to remove any identifying information it might contain, but even that isn't a huge deal if the person doesn't care. WLU (talk) 16:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I don't take it and I don't know anyone that does off hand but I will see if I can get one sent to me from a board I visit. I'll let you know if I get one. --CrohnieGalTalk 16:21, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Crohnie, gotta love the electronic age. They basically have to be comfortable with the image being used for anything, which is why they may want to eliminate identification marks and such the like. Perhaps one of the admins stalking your talk page could be more helpful. I HATE IMAGE USE. HATE it. WLU (talk) 16:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I did a search and found this, [7] On the right hand side it has "Share this photo" then a box with the URL. Can this be used? --CrohnieGalTalk 16:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Sorry, I don't know. You could bring it up at image use policy. I really kinda doubt it though, but when it comes to images I'm very reluctant to say anything concrete just because I HATE IMAGE USE and find it very confusing. I don't think I'm a stupid guy, but I start reading copyright information and the left hemisphere of my brain starts to beat up my right hemisphere in a desperate attempt not to die of boredom. How d'you feel about doing this yourself as a learning exercise? Because (and I don't know if I've mentioned it) I HATE IMAGE USE. WLU (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I hear you on that, so do I! I have some images I want to upload for Pyoderma gangrenosum but I never went through the whole thing, I had help to load one picture I took. Maybe I'll get around to uploading these and get the practice. But it is so much work and the way it is written it's hard to follow what to do. :) --CrohnieGalTalk 18:00, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm guessing it's not actually that bad, but I've never found the easy way to do it. After getting about 10 book covers deleted, I've finally hit on a fair use rational that works for book covers. And aside from that I only upload pictures I've taken myself. If you do find an easy way, please keep me in mind. WLU (talk) 18:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, I will learn how to use it and will use it wisely. WLU, I am asking for help on the picture issues since I can't figure it out at all! --CrohnieGalTalk 19:06, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
It's a bastard it is. You have my sympathy but not my help. Please linky-link me to any fruitful discussion. Contemplate the {{helpme}} tag even. WLU (talk) 19:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I sure will! Can you direct me to where to go to put pictures in? Where I went wants to put my file in from where it came from, my computer file, and that I won't do. There has to be a way to put pictures into Wikipedia without using my own file folder. Also, my post on my website gave me the same picture I showed you in the URL from natalizumab. I say we use the one from there and see if it flies. Now if I only knew how to! --CrohnieGalTalk 10:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
So you are trying to post from a website to wikipedia? I don't think that will work, I've only seen it work when uploading directly from the computer. You could always post a message at the helpdesk to see what they say. It's possible that there's a fair use rationale that applies if we can't get permission from a person. WLU (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

<Outdent> No, I got a picture sent to me from a website to my email. I have the picture on an attachment to an email from a friend who took it from the N website. Now what do I do? --CrohnieGalTalk 10:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


WLU I think I figured out how to put a picture in. I did it with the PG here [8] (Warning graphic picture) (now to get it into the article, hmmm!) What do you think? If I were to put the N picture in, what category would I use? I think it would be worth a try to see if it will stay in or not. Thoughts? --CrohnieGalTalk 12:55, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh fuck me please warn me before attracting my attention to something like that. I had a big breakfast and almost lost it all. I've a weak stomach for stuff like that.
Again, I'm going to have to play my useless card - I just don't know. Try a {{helpme}} tag if Delldot's reply below isn't useful.
Also note that my monitoring of my watchlist is getting spottier and spottier, if it's really important you should post me a message on my talk page. As you can see, I didn't notice this bit addressed to me until four days later, which is technically 'forever' on the internet.
Oh barf, I have to give blood now and I've got that gangrenous arm in my mind. Sorry Crohnie, I'm slinking away in horror and leaving you on your own with your disgusting picture. I can't stop thinking about it now...  :( I hope I don't vomit on the nurse. WLU (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Good news, I didn't throw up on the nurse. But I still don't have any useful advice. WLU (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
No worries Crohnie, you're on my 'relaxed' list of talk pages, which means you get more profanity and teasing. I still don't know what to do about the image :) WLU (talk) 18:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Neither do I but it's uploaded so it's available if anyone wants to use it. Like I said before, I enjoy your posts. --CrohnieGalTalk 18:48, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Saints alive, I sent a 'hail mary' e-mail to Elan and got a response! Which was to say I can't use the images I've found on the web. But, I think I might be able to use it on natalizumab because of this page! I am investigating... WLU (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

<outdent>Please keep me informed. It figures they would say no, you saved me time putting together an email to request the use! --CrohnieGalTalk 19:46, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Photo questions

Hi sweetie, pleasure to hear from you again. Hmm, I'm not sure we'll be able to use the photo. Who took it? The copyright belongs to the person who took it, so they would have to release it under a free license, which I can help with. Even if the person who took it is willing to release it, if it's been published on the web, we'll have to get permission from the site (or from an email address associated with it). I'm glad to help with this. I may not be able to be around much today, but I'll be able to help some time this weekend for sure. delldot talk 13:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

It's on a website that I found under Google search. It doesn't say if it is or isn't copy protected so maybe I should email them and see what they say about using it here. I'll get back to you on this. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, if it doesn't specifically say it's a free picture, we have to treat it as though it's not. Definitely email them and see if they'll release it, I can help with that if you need. But it will probably have to be deleted in the mean time and re-uploaded if they give permission. Sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. Peace, delldot talk 08:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Ok thanks, if you would please explain to me how to email the website if it's different than emailing a normal question to the site. I mean do I need to have them fill something out, come to Wikipedia? The picture in question is "here". We, WLU and I, were thinking a picture for this article would be appropriate [9]. Thanks Dell, and again there is no hurry ever with me, and definitely never an apology needed. You are always there to answer and help and I appreciate it. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 12:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I think probably the simplest would be to email them and find out if they'd be interested in donating the image. If they are, you can send them the text in the box at Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission#Declaration of consent for all enquiries they can fill out the required fields (or you can fill them out for them, to make it easier for them). Let me know when they've emailed you back and I'll help with the rest, we'll forward it to Wikimedia and go through the rest of the steps.
Sorry, I think I was confused. You meant you found the picture of the drug on a website, or the pyoderma gangrenosum one commons:Image:Crohnie Pyoderma gangrenosum.jpg? I'm sorry, I tagged that one for deletion thinking that it had already been published on the web. Has it? If it's been on the web, we may have to get that site to release it. Who took it? Because the person who took the picture would have to be the one to release it. Anyway, we probably have time to get it fixed because it takes a while for stuff to get deleted on commons. Sorry for the confusion! Talk to you soon I hope! Peace, delldot talk 13:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
That picture was given to me out right to use as I please. There shouldn't be any problems leaving it as it is. I checked around with others who put pictures in and was told it would be ok for me to load it in since it was basically my picture now since it was given to me. It has not been posted on any websites. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 13:38, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh, ok, I removed the tag. Sorry about that! Anyways, drop me a note if and when they reply to the email in case I don't see it here. Peace, delldot talk 16:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

<outdent> No problem, I will when I get a chance to email them about the other. Still empting boxes and such from the move. Thanks as always, --CrohnieGalTalk 18:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good, good luck with the unpacking! delldot talk 18:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

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Thanks for your very kind comments on my talkpage. You're the second person to ask me to take a look at that page, so maybe I really should!! When I have a minute, I will aim to wade through the posts. You're right that there is a lot to plough through! --Slp1 (talk) 17:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


Thanks Crohnie, I thought I had rolled-back his/her changes already but sinebot, the pimple, messed it up. WLU (talk) 16:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Rollback only reverts changes performed by a single user - if sinebot visited you 20 times, it'd revert all 20. If it visited you 10 times, then someone posted a different message, then 10 more times, it'd rever the last 10 only. Rolling back after sinebot means you rollback sinebot. Since sinebot is a program and virtually instantaneous, we'll see it on our watchlist and by the time we go to do something about it, sine has been and gone. The festering boil. The tick. The six-pound gangrenous testicle. Popups has a feature that allows you to choose any version of the history and revert to it - if it's blatant vandalism and I don't want to leave an edit summary, I use that. It also has the option to 'edit old', basically the version you are hovering over - same thing but a bit more complicated and you get to leave an ES. WLU (talk) 16:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi CrohnieGal, Thanks so much for your initial confidence and your vote and now for your congratulations. I do appreciate it! I never did get very far with Chiropractic: that whole RFA was quite stressful, and as you say there is sooooo much to read and understand. I will look into it again and see if I have any brainwaves! --Slp1 (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


No problem, you're welcome! --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

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I think I took care of the problem on HVM, but it still needs tons o' work, and I'm wondering if CynRN is going to run into problems with WP:NOT#FORUM. We'll see. Lots of stuff to do today, so I'm playing Superman - Up, Up and Away! WLU (talk) 13:45, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

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"See also" vs "External links"

Hello, I had started making some changes, but stopped in case I missed something. The guidelines at Wikipedia:Layout#Standard appendices and descriptions and WP:MOS indicate that "External links" belong in their own section, not the "See also" section. But I wanted to ask if there's a medical/disease specific formatting guideline that I may have overlooked. Can you help clarify? To be safe, I won't change any further articles until this is confirmed one way or the other. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 15:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Responded on your talk page, also asked for clarification from a well established editor. --CrohnieGalTalk 17:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Here's what I located earlier this morning: the guideline at Wikipedia:Layout#Standard appendices and descriptions seems to indicate that the "See also" section should only be used for internal wikipedia links, while the "External links" section should be used for outside links. I did track down WP:MEDMOS after posting here, but the only extra instruction that it appears to make is that for both sections "avoid if possible". So, I'm pretty sure that unless there's another guideline that I missed, that the WP:LAYOUT guideline should be the one to use. But, I'll wait for clarification from the admin you contacted, just to be sure. --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 17:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Barek, hi Crohnie, got your note on my talk about this. As far as I know, the order's the same for all types of articles: See also, then References, then External links (and if you have notes and whatnot, check WP:MEDMOS#Diseases/disorders/syndromes for how to order those sections). That's right Barek, only internal links go in the see also section, external links go in the external links section. Which does not address the question of whether we should keep the external links; as Barek says, they should be avoided if possible. My take on that is that we only need the link if it's got something the article can't provide, like useful images or a lot more detail than we can fit in the article. And external links shouldn't duplicate each other. I can look at them and give my take on whether they should stay if you want (not sure if this was part of the question or not though). Good job finding the relevant guidelines Barek. Good hearing from you again Crohnie, haven't seen you in a while! Peace, delldot talk 19:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

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Hi Crohnie,

2 e-mails I tried to send you were bounced back, figured this would be the best way to contact you. WLU (talk) 12:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Hm...I tried to send you an e-mail again and was once again bounced back. I'm getting your original e-mails but I don't think my replies are getting through. I'll try e-mailing you from your wikipedia e-mail account - forwards that I was sending from off-wiki. WLU (talk) 13:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
You should have two e-mails from me direct from your e-mail account. I can post the bounce-back message here if you'd like, let me know. Apparently I'm supposed to contact you directly. Which is slightly amusing since I was sending you an e-mail. Thanks unhelpful server! WLU (talk) 13:04, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Geeze, I got bounced again. Here's the message
I do notice that the e-mail you provided doesn't match with the one I'm sending to, so if you switched accounts but gmail in it's infinite wisdom is still sending to an old address, that might explain our problems. I'll try sending to your new address, hopefully gmail will update. WLU (talk) 16:53, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok I got the new one you sent and responded back to show you. I was getting worried but my email back explains why so I won't repeat it. Thanks WLU, this had to be quite frustrating and confusing for you! I hope you enjoyed the joke! --CrohnieGalTalk 17:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

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Hi, I saw your comment on someone's talkpage, and wanted to invite you back to Quackwatch. We are setting up some conditions for editing which will hopefully help stabilize things. If you'd like to edit the article, you are welcome to return. :) Also, if you still have questions about the restrictions that were place on Ronz or ScienceApologist, feel free to ask, and I will do my best to explain. --Elonka 20:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks but not now, I don't go into articles with certain behavior problems, it's not good for my health. I do have to say though I do lurk on the pages to see if things are calm or not, and not once since I self imposed not editing there has there been anything nice there to go back to. The same old arguments are still on going even when I thought the consensus reached a point that it was done. Now I am seeing the same behavior but only this time it seems that a certain group of editors are going to articles together to make their WP:Point when some of them couldn't get what they wanted after months of arguing about the same thing in different ways. I also don't understand why Ronz was blocked when it was obvious that what he was saying was not what Levine2112 was responding that he said. It has nothing to do with me but that is the kind of thing that goes on that keeps me away from articles because I do believe in being civil but I also believe that civilty is being used against editors to game the system here. So for now I'll just stay clear of the article in question and watch was goes on to see if there is actually any changes going on. But as I see it, unless there is an even hand on what civility is and editors actually following policy instead of playing games like is seen on that article and many others, editors who do not want to deal with it are going to stay away. If you look at the archives closely you will see there were a bunch of us editing at the QW page who have now stopped. One really good editor got so tired of it that he now just occasionally pops in because he keeps running into editors that have a plan and highjack articles to a stand still. Sorry but I think I'll stay clear for now. Have a good weekend. --CrohnieGalTalk 12:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Could you explain a bit more about the Ronz/Levine2112 thing? When you say it's "obvious", I guess it just doesn't show that way to me, because I'm uninvolved and don't know the history. Yes there are archives, but that's megabytes of text and I'm not sure what you're referring to. So, if you don't mind, could you explain a bit more? I'm sincerely interested in your view. If you'd rather not though, I understand. --Elonka 15:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Well with just a quick search, mind you, but this gives you an idea on how things have always gone since I've been here. [10] I hope this gives you a clearer idea about things. I was trying to learn policy with help and things spun out of control. I don't think I lasted there much longer either. I don't want to say anymore because I don't like the feeling of even feeling uncivil. --CrohnieGalTalk 18:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

<outdent> I meant to say that if you want to talk more feel free to email me. I have no problems with you contacting me if you wish to. Have a good day. --CrohnieGalTalk 19:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you use IMs? I prefer them to email. --Elonka 21:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I think I have most of them but I actively use AOL. How do I get the addy to you without advertising here? I assume you want to talk some more which is fine but to be honest I don't know how to set it up, I haven't added anyone in years! ;) I'm going to be leaving the computer for the day so take your time. I'll probably be back in the morning here wher I am in FL. Thanks, --CrohnieGalTalk 19:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
My AIM address is "elonka". Just add me to your buddy list, and send me a message whenever you get a chance.  :) --Elonka 19:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I added you to my list but you haven't been on line, at least when I have. I leave mine online all the time so my family can get through to me anytime. I am only off line when AOL IM pops in and out. Can I email you my name on AOL IM? My ID for that is quite different than what I use for Wikipedia. Thanks and no rush, I am assuming you have more to talk about.  :) I trust you to keep my personal info to yourself, so if I email you I would only be identifing myself not learning about you. --CrohnieGalTalk 13:43, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Meetup/Tampa -- You're invited! Hires an editor (talk) 13:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


Hello Crohnie. Could you also take a look at the Codex Alimentarius talk page if you get time? DivaNtrainin has removed what I consider to be a perfectly good reference (from the Guardian, a major British newspaper), saying that "this is not a quality reference." The Guardian easily qualifies as a reliable source WP:SOURCES with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy and I would really welcome your opinion on this, if possible.

In addition, on the health freedom movement article, DivaNtrainin has reworded a key sentence in the 'Ideology and objectives' section to read as follows:

"The belief that supplements and vitamins can demonstrably improve health or longevitiy is not backed by evidence-based medicine, nor is it widely accepted in the orthodox medical community or the alternative medical community, because there is felt to be insufficient evidence to support such claims."

Spelling errors aside, and rightly or wrongly, the belief that supplements and vitamins can improve health or longevity is actually widespread in the alternative medical community. More to the point, the reference cited by DivaNtrainin does not even support this rewording. I've already reverted DivaNtrainin's edit once, to correct this clear error, but DivaNtrainin immediately reverted back. I would therefore really welcome your opinion on this too, if you have time. Many thanks! Vitaminman (talk) 20:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I took a look at [Codex Alimentarius talk page] and read the article this morning. I put my comments about the use of the Guardian as a WP:RS. I think with the comments from me and Ronz, you should be able to put the source back into the article unless the other editor comes back to the talk and explains better why he/she removed the source. I just didn't see any reason for the source to be removed as I do think it follows policy as a Reliable source. So for this article I would suggest waiting just a little bit, a few more hours at least, then if no sensible reason for the removal of the source is given, put it back where it was. If there becomes a problem later on, drop in and let me know and I will try to assist. I am usually online in the mornings (EST).
As for the Health freedom movement article, well that seemed to get resolved before I saw this from you. I saw Fyslee and Ronz helping with the article yesterday and if I saw correctly, the misinformation has been corrected by you and Fyslee. Again, it was early today when I took a look so if I need to look at something else, please don't hesitate. I enjoy helping when I can and I actually found myself reading new information that has been added to this article since my last read which was quite some time ago. The article is looking a lot better than it did with my older reading of it but of course more work is needed. I will try to find time to maybe help out with some citations that I saw was needed. I did do a lot of reading of sources this morning trying to locate some information but didn't find what I was looking for. I have it bookmarked to continue my search, I need the practice! :) Again, thanks for trusting me to take a look into these areas. I did find it interesting too. Question, did you also write the Codex_Alimentarius? Just curious, but it looks like your writing. Take care and I hope to see you around more frequently. --CrohnieGalTalk 13:46, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, many thanks Crohnie! I will do as you suggest with the Codex Alimentarius article. (I didn't write it, the fact that it looks like my writing is probably just due to the fact that I have done a fair few bits of rewriting on it here and there. Glad you think that the Health Freedom Movement article is looking a lot better. I agree that more work is needed, any help that you can offer will be great. And yes, you take care too, I'll try to drop in a little more often to say hello!Vitaminman (talk) 13:55, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello again Crohnie! Thanks for your latest message on my talk page. I see that MastCell has just left DivaNtrainin a message [[11]] and that DivaNtrainin's talk page [[12]] has been scrubbed several times over the past year. Seems to me like DivaNtrainin has been causing quite a lot of trouble around here. Thanks again for your help on this, you have a good day too!!Vitaminman (talk) 11:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Just saw your response on my talk page. It's very nice of you to say that. You sound like a very nice editor too, Crohnie!! :-) Vitaminman (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Hello Crohnie! Please see DivaNtrainin's latest comments re. the Codex Alimentarius article, and my response, on my talk page [13]. What do you think? Vitaminman (talk) 17:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


Hiya Crohnie,

Thanks for the vote of confidence; ResearchEditor is very aware of me and my editing habits, we've a long, acrimonious history, and RE has recently been banned from editing SRA and Michelle Remembers (which you've seen on the Admin's noticeboard). The problem isn't that RE and Arthur Rubin are unfamiliar with me, the problem is with another editor (who was banned).

As part of my contribution to your wiki-learning, may I venture the following: though your comment was very kind and I'm flattered, it's only really going to be helpful in situations in which another editor is unfamiliar with me. It would be the ideal comment for a request for adminship or were my actions under review (for instance, were I in RE's position or were people taking his/her comments about my own approach or POV issues seriously). Generally there's no harm to saying what you did, but there can be a danger of getting sucked in to an ongoing dispute or harrassed if the other editor is stupid enough to do so - wikipedia is nothing if not a schoolyard rife with grudges. A third opinion or comment on the sources or links might also have been helpful as it indicates a third party has reviewed them and finds them lacking, or fruitful. Another possible danger is accusations of meat- or sockpuppetry; since you've a long history on wiki and lots of good contributions, I don't think that'd be a concern.

And allow me to venture a "shucks, y'all made me blush" :)

Regards the Wikipedia:Tag team essay you've asked me about before, I'd say it should be policy were it not for the huge problems with interpretation. The key word for me is "disruptive" editing. Cesar Tort and I could be accused of tag-teaming on the satanic ritual abuse page, but for the recent AN and NPOV discussions that thoroughly and heartily dis-endorsed ResearchEditor's approach to editing. However, since we were defending, rather than interfering with, consensus, and since we were opposing a single editor rather than another group, it's not really a concern. That being said, I am quite aware that were CT and I not well supported by multiple very good sources our actions would have been extremely questionable. Even still I'm uncomfortable with it and prefer an exception basis rather than a regular pattern of working with a single other editor to revert pages (plus, Cesar and I didn't plan it, we're just regularly on wikipedia and monitored SRA a lot in the past weeks).

Again, the key is disruptive - if the goal is to push an agenda, if it's organized, if it's against consensus, if it's to make a fringe position appear mainstream, then it's a problem. However it's a fine line and subtle distinction, which often depends on the POV of the person/people doing the reverting. I'm not surprised at all that it's seen as both problematic and a current problem. Civility parole I've not heard of, do you have a link? WLU (talk) 19:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Noticed this was prodded, thought you'd be interested. For what it's worth, I hate lists and think that list of external links are a gross violation of policy (ergo, I agree with the nomination). That don't mean I'm right. WLU (talk) 01:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Hi, well I commented not knowing that the two editors actually knew your ways to editing plus I didn't think the comments from RE should allow to stand unchallenged esp. with the comments on ANI. What I said about you I really mean, you are a very good editor and I would vote, heck, nominate you for administrator at anytime with what you have shown me. But again you show me how smart you are by saying you would not be a good administrator and refuse to become one, I agree with what you say too! :)
I understood the problems that might incur making the comment I did. My first thought was meat/sock but then after thought, I knew that wouldn't fly at all. I was not worried and still stand by what I said. I don't think that I can be taken any other way then meant with my brief statement there. I do agree that I should of read what caused the earlier comments, I have some idea from your talk and the ANI and seeing comments somewhere else about RE (don't remember right now where or what to be honest. I didn't get much sleep last night, tropical storm Faye has been beating on us all night and loud warnings on the TV kept blasting about tornado warnings and possible hail and so forth. So I am tired!) I was too lazy first to get into reading what caused the broohaha and also, I feel not knowing about it shows that my comments were to counter the other comment made. If things like article rule changes for writing like 0RR and more can be applied to try to make things civil then what I said is nothing compared to what this caused. [14] (this is also on other articles) which lead to this, [15] and then to this, [16] and the beat goes on to the, but not at all limited to of course, Tag Team.
As for the list I saw that and I too don't like lists like this. I didn't even know that this list existed. IOIO I think wrote it up though I am not positive about that. I just know he/she added it to the Crohn's disease article when the list of Crohn's organizations was deleted in the WP:EL section of the article.
If you search Civility patrol you will see that it is a catch word for editors lately, though tag team seems to be the new catch phrase. Personally I am tired of hearing about civility so often misused. And I believe it is used as a hammer at times esp. to try to get the oposition banned or blocked. As you know I believe in being polite, but it seems that polite and civility seems to have a different meaning here lately. I would rather have some one say what they mean then to politely be pushing an agenda and then scream someone is so uncivil. This happens all the time, sometimes its a correct conclusion but a lot of the time it's bull and things can get very out of control. Sorry, like I said I'm tired. So I don't have a link to a policy about civility patrol but you can see it a lot. The tag team article I haven't touched because it fell into the same ole, same ole. I think a lot of regular editors can be accused of this. I have seen tag teams, so I do believe this happens but I think the essay should go away because I really think it will be used inappropriately to accuse people. I think I responded to everything.  :) Well it's pouring again with another rain band so going to get this saved before or I guess I should say in case the power goes away again. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC) (PS: Didn't proof read so apologies for any errors.)


Thanks for your note on my talk page; nice to see you (and others e.g. Shot Info) are still active on WP. I'm doing well (relatively speaking) & enjoying the company of good friends, nice weather and the occasional overhead mirage (aircraft). How are you doing these days? Avb

Hi to you too! I am still around. I do mostly clean up type work around here lately though an editor has been pushing me to be more bold to articles which I try to do. He is good for me to make me do more than I am comfortable with so I encourage him to push me to be bold! :) I think the two of you would be excellent editors on articles. Do you know User:WLU? He edits a lot in the same style as you do.
I have been having a hard time with my health so with the need to up my meds lately I have more problems then usual focusing and remembering, but this is good for me to force me to read and concentrate. I hope I see you around again. I really do miss you. Drop me an email if you get a moment. Since our last talks my email address has changed so hit the click to email me so that you can change my address to Comcast if you haven't already. I would love an update on how you are doing. I will do the same and drop in with the latest. Lots have gone on here in real life for me in the past year. Some good and some well, crappy. We had to deal with Tropical storm Faye this week. There were lots of TV warnings about possible flooding, hail and tornados. Fortunately we didn't have any of these problems nor did any of my family but there were some deaths and damage caused by the storm since it started. It's not done yet either, it sounds like it is going to go back and hit the tip of FL again and go on into GA. Thank goodness it hasn't upgraded, at least not that I have heard, since it's time in the Atlantic. We still have over cast skies and rain predicted for today but hopefully the severe weather part is gone. The tornado warnings are frigtening enough but to get messages on the TV every 15 min. throughout the night when you can't see anything is quite unnerving at times. I hope to hear from you soon. You take care of yourself and keep in touch now, pretty please! ;) --CrohnieGalTalk 13:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Codex Alimentarius

Hello again!!

Would you take a look at the Codex Alimentarius article if you have time? There's an external link in the article that I'm sure doesn't belong there (Conference of Rima E laibow, 2008) but the editor who added it there has reverted my undo. I'm sure that it fails WP:RS and WP:EL. Very sorry to read that you've been having a hard time with your health. I hope that you're feeling better very soon.Vitaminman (talk) 19:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

What is it saying? Did you give me the right link? It's in some language other than my own. I don't think it belongs for the reasons you state but also because this is the English form of Wikipedia. I'll make comment on the talk page in a bit, have to wake up fully so I can take another look at the article to see if that is the right link. Thanks Vitaminman, --CrohnieGalTalk 10:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

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Both on my talk page and on talk:CD. That guy seems to be irritating a whole bunch of people. WLU (talk) Wikipedia's rules(simplified) 17:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I adjusted your user page a bit - {{divhide}} instead of the other template you were using. The one you had was for archives, divhide makes no assumption of why you use it. Sometimes using a template puts the page in a category automatically (probably not the case here) and it's a bit clearer. You can play with it more too. And may I say the use of http:// links instead of wikilinks drives me nuts!! But I've always resisted adjusting 'cause it's your talk page and somewhat rude. I did notice my essay as well - thanks! I love when my stuff gets spammed. Have you seen WP:SANDWICH? WLU (talk) Wikipedia's rules(simplified) 18:07, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi yes, he is now soapboxing to your comments on the Crohn's disease talk page. He is well known here at wikipedia and on the net. I haven't looked at his block log for a while but it was pretty big if I remember correctly.
I just noticed you changed your sig, looks good. I read the Sandwich essay and like it. I also added that to my user page! ;) As for wikifying my links, I have been doing it slowly but it's tedious to do. When I first started collecting for my memory, the way I have it was the only way I knew how to do it. By the time I learned how to do it differently, I was too lazy to make the correction. Knock yourself out if you want to help, I never mind anything of mine being edited. Thanks for correcting my hide boxes. I just figured out recently how to use a different template for it but hadn't gotten around to fixing it yet. We went out of town and it takes me a long time to get ready for a road trip. But we had a good time though since returning we have been sleeping a lot. When away we had to sleep on a couch pull-out and it was not the most comfortable thing plus it was in the living room so we were up with any noise but the family. I'll respond to your other comments on your talk page, also telling you of my babble here! Face-smile.svg. --CrohnieGalTalk 11:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

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Don't know how to email you so here is a post, you can remove.

Having suffered with IBS for some 18 years a wide spectrum antibiotic treated my illness.

The reseasrch that followed and the suggetions to others suffering from Crohns showed 100% improvment.

Intestinal Problems and Parasites

Once you get over the 'it can't be that simple' and hopefully it works...

It truly beyond belief, but then again look at the Cigarette Industry...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 16:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

i laugh now, but for some 18 years I was similar to you, your situation is more serious. I thought I was dying, so I spent my time, trying to create....i created a philosophy 'thinking in colors..."

Then i finally sat down and tried to put my attention on my health problem and was shocked to find a accident.

i still cannot believe how we are being deceived about these 'intestinal problems'...

Good luck...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 16:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Response to Caesar

Hi Caesar, I welcome anyone to comment at my talk pages. I am sorry but I do not agree with you or your website about cures for Crohn's disease or IBS. I have lived with these diseases myself for a very long time. I try alternates too but have not found that eating good bacteria helps me at all. I have not had but an 8 month remission in my CD in the over 8 years that I have CD and still resulted multiple surgeries. If you can find RS that are V then post them at the proper article. Our personal beliefs don't belong here. I ask a trusted editor to help me when I edit in an area that I know I have strong POV. I know you believe what you post but Wikipedia isn't for Truth nor is it for soapboxing your personal ideas. You seem to feel there is a vast Conspiracy theory going on but really there isn't. I hope you understand that your run for truth will not be allowed here, sorry but this is a fact. We all have to follow all the policies when editing here. If you have reliable sources that can be verified with another source then by all means post it to the talk page for discussion but so far I haven't seen any. Sorry, have a good, healthy day. --CrohnieGalTalk 18:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Your priority if the references are accurate, and logically the symptoms suggest it, is to take a wide spectrum anti-biotic, the natural ones, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Garlic, Oregano Oil, these are some that would be your first priority, the second is fiber and the third would be probiotics, ie Activa.

Probiotics by themselves won't help, you are at advanced stages of infection. People who have tried the three report great improvements. Good luck...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 00:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

First, I removed the nonsense you posted that I suspect you though was humor. It something I don't want on my talk page, sorry. But with what you did say, I have and continue to use garlic in my daily cooking. I used Grapefruit extract for a little while but discontinued it because it can interfere with my meds. I cannot do a high fiber do to stricture problems that I have which causes me severe blockages (hospital in the end of the year because of a blockage (s)). My diet is very restricted and as you know by now everyone who has IBD and/or IBS have different diets because their bodies react differently to different foods. What you try to say about these diseases cannot be proved because diet is so different, people are so different, so you can't have one fits all attitude. This is why you have trouble finding WP:Reliable sources that can be WP:Verifiable sources. Again, if you have good sources please supply it at the proper page. I don't know what else I can tell you about this. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree about bacteria. I for one take antibiotics as scarcely as possible. Have a good day, --CrohnieGalTalk 11:29, 13

When taking fiber, you may have to add Omega 3 or 3/6/9 to help the digestive track.

You are correct, everyone is different, so someone can take 'fresh garlic' some can't.

Again there are many 'faceets' to the problem so you have to address them all at once. The 'parasite' will redevelop and cause further problems.

Good Luck.

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

You don't take antibiotics, well as for antibiotics, they were given to me for a lung infection. since i did not have drug plan, i was given an old wide spectrum drug, (erthomycin) very inexpensive, but still very good. (today the modern anitiobiotics are more specific, which creates a problem when you can't find the specific infection)

So what can i tell, you, 'the system' did not find and treat the infection, it was mere ...i would like to think a grace from god...18 years ?

See what happens when you place your faith in the 'system'...

--Caesar J.B. Squitti: Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti (talk) 21:27, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Your user page

The way the categories were linked meant that your user page was in the categories, rather than simply linking to them. With a ":" place right after the first brackets, that pulls your page out of the category and creates a normal link of the page. Cheers. --Izno (talk) 13:15, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

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Undid revert made to Serial killer article

Hi Crohnie, I undid the revert you made to the Serial killer article. I am not vandalizing the page. I am cleaning it up because it has been selected by the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team for inclusion in Wikipedia 0.7, and they asked members of the Serial Killer task force to assist with article cleanup and improvement. Please leave an edit summary in the future when making reverts. Thanks, --*momoricks* (talk) 22:56, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

No problem. The Serial killer page should probably be semi-protected against vandalism if it's happening that often. What do you think? --*momoricks* (talk) 03:15, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I just happened to take a glance at the article's history today and ended up reverted vandalism. Have you looked at the semi-protection guide? You probably know more about the page vandalism history than I do. I think it's worth contacting an admin about it. Thanks! --*momoricks* (talk) 00:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks so much for making that request. Let's hope something comes of it. Oh, and BTW, I'm a gal too. :) --*momoricks* (talk) 03:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi Momoricks, sorry about that, sometimes I remember to he/she but then again I just default to he for some reason! So far I haven't heard anything and the article hasn't been semi protected but I also haven't seen any vanalism either thus that might be the reason for no action. Talk again soon I hope, --CrohnieGalTalk 11:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: Too lazy to look back in history

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your question. I don't remember making any edits to the Zodiac killer article. Oh, and about the he/she thing. You used he or she so I was just letting you know which one I am. :) --*momoricks* (talk) 23:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry my mistake this was a different editor working this article. I'll have to go back and check it out again. Sorry again for the confusion. --CrohnieGalTalk 11:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

No worries. I'm just glad that I'm not going crazy. :) --*momoricks* (talk) 03:23, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Epocrates spamming and photos

Hi CrohnieGal,

per your recent edit summary on IBS, I'd like to invite you to comment on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Value_of_Epocrates_external_links.

Also, I was wondering, since your user page states that you have a combination of medical problems and are presumably taking at least some pills, I was wondering if you could take picture of them (if those pictures don't exist already) and upload them to Commons.

Also, I was wondering if you could provide a description for Image:Crohnie Pyoderma gangrenosum.jpg: is this on a leg, and if so, which side?

--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:11, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for bringing the conversation about the Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Value_of_Epocrates_external_links. I wasn't aware at all that this was under discussion and have made my comments there.
As for my other medical conditions, I have loaded a picture of my rash to the commons [17]. I do not have any pictures of my lungs unfortuately. I might be able to get copies of the films but then I wouldn't have a clue how to adjust films like that to be useful here. I know my physicians do have copies of the damage to my lungs. I have a picture of acute edema of my ankles and feet if that would be of interest here. I'd have to look to see if they are good enough to use here in quality as I haven't looked at them for awhile. I also some pictures from a camera endoscopy that I had done but they aren't real good for pictures since the doc made copies for me on the copy machine and so they aren't as clear as they were on the color ones I saw from the computer they showed me. If you are interested in seeing any of these, please don't hesitate to email me and I will send them to you for you to look at what I do have. I don't know how to do clean up of photos so I would also release them to you if you are interested in any of them. Please just let me know. Also keep in mind that through Wikipedia emails, attachments don't work so I would need your email address if you are interested in them.
I did go to the P.G. photo and added your requested info. If you want more info or wish to change the wording there don't hesitate. I don't mind other editing anything I do. I hope what I am saying is helpful! :) --CrohnieGalTalk 15:49, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I saw your comment and thought it would be a good idea to deal with the epocrates spamming definitively. I made some "advocate of the devil" comments because I didn't want to influence the discussion, but now I think too that this should be dealt with as spam.
With regards to your pictures, they are very useful (I've put one up at pyoderma gangrenosum). From what you describe about the other pictures you have, I would think that it would be a lot of trouble for low-quality pictures that could also be obtain from other sources. But I was enquiring about medications: would you be able to take pictures of any immunosuppresants or COPD-inhalers you are taking, for example (provided that these images don't already exist on Wikipedia or Commons).
And yes, what you are saying is very helpful :-)
cheers, --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 16:06, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Sure, I have RX's for around 23 meds that I take, of course a lot of them are as needed type of things, (IE: nausea, edema and so forth.) What do you want them to look like? I mean, the bottle (of course without my personal tag seen) with some pills to the side of it? Can you be specific on what I should do? I'm not very knowledgable in this area of things and it takes me forever to download them with figuring out which template to use. I am on Fentalyn both via patch and the Actiq lollipops so concentrating and remembering is difficult for me at times, thus why I don't do any major editing. I would be more than happy to help out though in anyway that I can though. My husband is also on meds that are newish that might not be at the commons. Would you mind giving me a link to the area of the commons so I can what pictures are there of the meds so I can tell which ones I have here that would be helpful. If you would assist me a bit that would be nice too, but don't feel pressured or anything. Feel free if you would like to take this part to email which for me it would be easier to refer to what it is you are suggesting for me. I am trying harder to be more bolder lately, and so far so good. I have another editor who reminds me via email to go 'bold' since I tend to get timid and worry about screwing up or causing others extra work. Thanks for you kindness.
As for that website I agree that it should be treated as spam. I will try to get to your comments about it as soon as I can but my football game is soon to start, GO Hurricanes! --CrohnieGalTalk 16:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
The bottle with pills on the side indeed seems most informative. Some good examples are Image:Paxtin PL photo.jpg (although it would be nice to have a more neutral eg. black background and more pills) and Image:Glivec 400mg.jpg or Image:Methylfenidaat NL.jpg (more pills would be better) for pills in packages instead of bottles. Image:Regular strength enteric coated aspirin tablets.jpg would be better if the whole bottle would be shown and if the pills weren't scattered all over (this is a nice artistic shot, but has less encyclopedic value). Same for Image:Prenatal vitamin tablets.jpg: nice background and good quality, but the bottle should be upright and completely visible. Another lesson from Image:Modafen.jpeg: make sure both the pills and the package are entirely visible and not overlapping.
Pictures of the fentanyl lollipops and the patch on skin as well as on a neutral background would be great.
The examples I gave you are all from Commons:Category:Pills, but most pictures are not in that category. To find out if a picture is already out there, the best way would be to look at the Wikipedia article, search in the image namespace on Wikipedia, and then searching on Commons (searching both with the generic name and the brand name). I'll assist you, no problem, I'll send you an e-mail for further discussion.
The "reply" in my signature and the message on my talk page explain that I prefer if you just answer on my talk page. To save time, you could copy your answer on this page and paste it on my talk page. Don't worry about errors, nothing here can't be reverted. Enjoy the football game!--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 17:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I've replied, so our e-mail communication line seems to work. It's a pleasure working with you! --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 15:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I have enjoyed it too, I hope you don't mind the hand holding though! ;) I appreciate your help and the work you too are doing. Thank you so much for all the help. --CrohnieGalTalk 17:14, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Gacy's external links

Hi, thanks for the note. I try to put the tags there to give editors a chance to incorporate them into the references. Now that I think about it, I'll start putting a note about it on the article's talk page. Your link cleanup looks great. I think it's fine to keep the link to his artwork considering it's some of the best-known serial killer art. Best, --*momoricks* (talk) 15:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick response! :) Well I'm glad I left it. The reason for my questioning it is that I remember that there was a big deal about his artwork being available online by a lot of the media stating what people were saying about it. If I remember correctly he also tried to make monies off of them in the past from jail and that too was said to be illegal and that site was removed since people cannot make monies off their crimes. I'll be looking for your comments as I am starting to catch up on the serial murder articles as I've always been interested in this area, I read mostly true crime and watch different shows about them. I have a very large collection of books about serial killers that my husband always teases me. ;) --CrohnieGalTalk 15:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

We'd love to have you on the Serial killer task force. Wildhartlivie and I seem to be the only active members right now. momoricks talk 05:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


Ooops. Sorry, I'm not able to spend as much time editing as I'd like at the moment and seem to be making a few mistakes. Thanks for cleaning up after me and not getting angry. I'm sure that I was putting it back though :s weird. Verbal chat 20:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Hey no problem, I'm sure a time will come when I too will do it backwards and you'll have to fix it. That's how we all should help each other! Have a good day, don't worry at all. --CrohnieGalTalk 21:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Hi, you've been busy! :)

Thanks so much for the kudos. It really made my day, and I hope this cookie makes yours. Keep up the great work too, and have fun snapping photos of drugs! :) momoricks talk 05:57, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ed Gein

I'm currently at work with limited internet access so I can't view the URL link, but I'll take a look at it when I get home in about 5 hours. Talk to ya soon, momoricks talk 03:02, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify something - the page you're citing as where the Ed Gein article is supposedly copy and pasted from, is in actuality, a copy of the Wikipedia article, or at least an earlier version from before some rewrite had been done by myself and others. Please look at the bottom of the page which says: This entry is from Wikipedia, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors. The parts still need sources, but will never be a reliable third party source. Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
To add to Wild's note: I distrust most online sources that pop up on a regular Google search for that very reason. It's sometimes difficult to distinguish the mirror sites. I did Google News and Google Books searches on Ed and found some promising sources. In addition, The Biography Channel has a decent article on him. From what I can tell, Harold Schechter's book Deviant is the most notable biography. You might want to get a hold of a copy. I try to avoid using Crime Library articles as sources because they are compilations of information from various sources as well. The last page of most articles has a bibliography, which can be a good place to find direct sources. momoricks talk 08:59, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Gosh I am feeling really stupid right now! Seriously, thank you both of your input. I didn't realize that places like this would be a mirror site of here, which explains why the Wikipedia article was list like third or so, darn. Wild, I didn't catch the bottom where is said it was from here, shoot, I better read more closely and look for something like this kind of notification. I used Google Scholar and took the top hits. I will try to get back to the article today and fix what I did. Then I will try to add to the article WP:Reliable sources and hopefully add to the article in a positive way, not like what I did yesterday which was a waste of time. I am sorry, I really was trying to help improve the article.
Momoricks, thanks for the other ideas for researching. I think I will go this route, adjust the changes I was doing yesterday and hopefully add to the article to improve it. Thank you both for telling me what I was doing wrong. I really feel stupid, I know I have said this already but the way I feel right now it deserves being restated.  :( Anyways, I will go back and see if I can add positive information to the article from reliable source. Thanks again so much, --CrohnieGalTalk 10:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Don't worry about it, it's something that happens until you get fairly well-versed in such things. I undid the changes you'd made that were a good faith attempt to address something you thought was wrong, no harm done. Gein's article is fairly lean, mostly because of the lack of materials on it. I had done what I could with what was readily available. If you've any other questions, please feel free to contact me! Wildhartlivie (talk) 10:38, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Crohnie, like Wild said, don't worry about it. None of us is perfect. You were trying to improve the article, that's what counts. I really appreciate your help in improving these articles. I've been bouncing back and forth between Serial killer and Aileen Wuornos for weeks and still feel like they are far from Feature Article status. All we can do is just keep plugging away at them. Best, momoricks talk 10:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Momoricks, I've seen you working the articles. Thanks for the links, they may help better for me to try to help some. So far all I've really been doing is taking, or trying to take care of the vandals so you and others could do more serious work. But I would like to continue to try to see if I can help a little more in this area. I had a set back which I can handle but I feel bad that someone had to waste time and take care of what I did. But it is a definite learning experience for me! Thanks and I will continue to try to help in a positive way in the serial killer articles. It would be great to see one, some?, all?, go to FA. Keep it up, you are doing wonderful work. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
LOL, I've been bouncing around everywhere - Crime, Serial killers, actors - trying to get them ready for version 0.7. There really is no one running things at either of the crime related projects so I try to deal with what I can, lately with Momoricks help. Besides, at the moment, I am watchlisting every article I've worked on for 0.7 just to keep track of an at least marginally acceptable version for release. You might want to look over the lists at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Criminal Biography/Serial Killer task force/Wikipedia 0.7 article review and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography/Wikipedia 0.7 article review to see if there are things there you can work on as well. As you can see, there are articles on the latter that need so work, even some copy editing will help. Thanks for your help!! Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:08, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Why are you labeling New York Times and Public Library links as "Spam" and seeking removal?

In your recent post to Chris Heimerdinger:Talk you argued for the removal of New York Times and Public Library sources as references to support the existence of certain films. Are these not considered Reliable Sources? Or do the listed items simply not require supporting citations. If these are unreliable, could you be so kind as to point me towards a source superior in reliability to the NYT's or a public Librarys card catalog for supporting the existence of a work? Thanks! (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you are new, welcome to Wikipedia by the way, I answered on your talk page in case you don't have mine on your watch. I hope you try to be patient and give it time for others to weigh in about your concerns, I think you will find this calming and actually find that you will enjoy yourself here. What I was told when I first started editing really helped me out so I'll pass this along, be patient and give yourself time to learn policies. It will make editing here much easier and keep you sane too! :) The more in depth answer is on your talk page. One more thing, don't take my response personal about removing the references you have given. I'm against them because I really believe they are spammy and add to the article to read more like an advertisement. Please keep in mind that established editors can really help you understand the policies better, there are a lot of them and there is a lot to take in. Again, welcome to Wikipedia and remember, happy editing! --CrohnieGalTalk 19:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

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Notice please note

I got bit big time by a bug I got on the administrators board, thus my computer is down and probably will have to be rebuilt. Please hold off on any emails and the such for a little while until I let you know I have access. I am borrowing a laptop at the moment for this message but can not use my own computer. I hope the idiot who thought they were cute enjoyed themselves. Talk to you soon, maybe. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:34, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

My computer is back on line but there is still a lot to do but my email account should now be working again. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
You either have the worst luck, or absolutely no antivirus protection :) If you're using a PC, AVG (software) and Avast! are both free and well-received. May I also suggest using Mozilla, generally regarded as better than IE? Either that or computers just hate you. In that case, may I suggest shouting your messages to your husband from a separate room? I'll re-ping your e-mail in a bit. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 18:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, wonderful message and well needed! I am smiling for once. :) As for the email, nothing is a rush so take your time. Thanks again for the smiles, you always seem to know what to say to chill me out, and yes, computers hate me, they always have. If something can go wrong with this stupid machine they will. Take care my friend, --CrohnieGalTalk 20:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC) PS: Hubby did install extra protection including spyware or whatever to protect me from myself. :)
[18] is my only response. Read until the drill and facemask appears. The essentials are mozilla, some sort of anti-virus and Ad-Aware (from my understanding, but your hubby may have a better idea). WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 22:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Great way to start my morning, I don't know what he put on but so far I haven't set anything off so that's a good thing, I know that if I see it I shouldn't be where ever I was that tripped the alarm. --CrohnieGalTalk 10:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments re ME/CFS

Hi Crohnie, kudos on your cool-headed attempt to gain clarity on GDB's talk page. You may be interested to note the case definition page. Also, regards the ME vs. CFS/IBD vs. IBS, I don't believe this is a comparable circumstance. IBS and IBD are different conditions, with different definitions, symptoms, treatments, scopes, etc; IBS diagnosis requires exclusion of IBD from what I can see. ME and CFS are essentially the same thing (from what I know, I could be wrong and if I am I wish someone had shown me the reference before). From what I've read, ME is used interchangeably, but essentially describes the same condition as CFS. Some describe CFS and ME as lying on a continuum, with ME being the more serious condition (in the "4 out of the following 12 symptoms" versus "10 out of 12") but much of the criteria overlapping. But I could be wrong, from what I've read they are pretty much interchangeable. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 17:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, so let me get this straight, Guido thinks ME is the disease and it is contagious, and inflamation that can be passed on to others thus a disease of its own? I still think the IBD/IBS anology is equal to what he is saying because IBS is usually the first diagnosis given until serious consequences occur. For example, I've been diagnosed with IBS since I was a little girl, but now my docs think I still have IBS flare ups but most of the flare ups I was having at least two years prior to my CD diagnosis was actually the activation of the beginning of the disease to start destroying my body. IBS is still an umbrella term used even now when I go for tests and I go nuts when I see it used. I had a CAT scan and the diagnosis was active IBS flare up. When I told the tester it was not IBS but Crohn's he said he knew that the IBS code was used as an umbrella term. This happens all the time to me and when I used to go to support groups I found that this was a regular ocurrance with most of the others with some form of IBD. I know of about ten people who were diagnosed all the way to resection surgery with a diagnoses of IBS. Needless to say, now I know IBS doesn't cause bleeding, ever. I didn't know that before, heck I didn't even know what IBD/Crohn's was until after major surgery and my husband's research because I was so frightened when the doc said "incurable", I didn't hear anything else after that.
From what I can make out from the conversations at Guido's page and the CFS article is that CFS might just be in the same category of an umbrella term. I too wish that someone would show some Reliable sources already. I just know that my honest look into this, and trying to stay open minded with everything everyone has contributed with the sources, and my conclusion is that the two terms are interchangable like you say. I'm tempted to ask my doctor at my next appointment about this since he is a pain doc and would have treatments to patients with this I would think (plus he is an administrator of the hospital so he is privy to information about all sorts of things.) I just didn't think I would ask simple questions like I did and get such strong responses like what happened though I should have known nothing is simple here lately! :) I have to say though, I can understand Guido's strong feelings for this with him living it. He sounds like I did long ago when I found out that my IBS wasn't IBS like 3 doctors kept telling me, and it was always with the tone 'it's all in your head' attitude. But he maybe too close to this to keep his personal feelings from getting in the way even though he doesn't think so. I've been there too, like him, which is one of the reasons I don't write the Crohn's disease article because I know if I started adding things I would let it get personal and want to make sure that I warned others not to make the same mistakes I did that almost cost me my life and did cost my more than half my small bowel, cecum valve and over 12" of small intestines. But this isn't what Wikipedia is supposed to do, so I don't, but boy I would really love to! :) So you see, I am a lot like him in a way except I acknowledge it and don't do it. I really think he needs to step away from this too for the same reasons I step away and only watch the article for vandals mostly or make suggestions on the talk page for others to react to or not. Am I making any sense here? It's a hard day for me with a blockage I have so I am a little out of it. I hope though that I am making sense to you.  :)
On a different note, my computer is feeling much better today. Hubby has it just about finished with redoing it. He even put some new programs in that I'm playing with, and they are fun to play with, like an update office program that does all kinds of cool things. What can I say, I am easy to amuse! --CrohnieGalTalk 18:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
My apologies for the mis-spelling, you and everyone else on wikipedia have an open invite to correct my spelling (which is usually pretty poor). Ask User:Cesar Tort, I gave him a barnstar for proofreading :) I don't know if GDB thinks it's contagious, but I know he thinks ME should have a separate page. Every source he and other editors have provided I've reviewed, and for wiki-purposes, I've considered them insufficient to make the split again. I don't know if I just haven't been shown the right information or not, but I do know that I've to date been unconvinced. I despair at Guido ever changing his mind on anything - irrespective of who the person is or what the evidence, he seems completely inflexible in his approach and always assumes his interpretation is correct (to the point of trying to adjust policies to suit; I could be wrong in this, but it's my general impression).
Still forgetting I've a weak stomach? 12" of intestine isn't what I want to hear about Face-smile.svg Your approach to editing shows a good self-awareness to your button issues and is quite sensible. The CFS page is probably even more touchy than CD though - CD is seen as a disease and is diagnosable (though complicated). CFS there's no definitive test, etiology or treatment, and some of the etiology and treatment approaches (a la refrigerator moms and autism) are very blaming of the patient (I believe one viewpoint is basically "it's all in your head, now get off your lazy ass and get to work"). The use of the word "fatigue" is particularly galling since it makes them sound like they're just tired - it's one of the reasons that myalgic encephalomyelitis is a preferred term, but it's uncertain if inflamation of the CNS is characteristic of all patients (or even if CFS is a single condition or a variety of different-cause, common symptom conditions). In those circumstances it's no wonder it's a very contested and emotional area, but strong feelings don't mean you get to ignore UNDUE and MEDRS. I don't blame CFS patients for having strong feelings in the area, but until the causes and treatments are unambiguously described and accepted, it's going to be messy on wikipedia. If a significant minority of doctors adopt a victim blaming approach, we still have to report it even if it's not the nicest approach. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 19:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding pyoderma gangrenosum

First, thank you for your interest in this article. I also appreciate the work you have done on wikipedia. Concerning pyoderma gangrenosum, I want to place it under "Erythemas" as per the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Dermatology_task_force/Categorization, a categorization scheme that was developed after extended discussion at the main wikiproject medicine page. I believe pyoderma gangrenosum does appropriately fit under erythemas, this based on how it is described and categorized in: James, William; Berger, Timothy; Elston, Dirk (2005). Andrews' Diseases of the Skin: Clinical Dermatology (10th ed.). Saunders. ISBN 0721629210, specifically pages 139 and 147, also being found in the chapter entitled, "Erythma and urticaria." Regardless, Category:Skin diseases is now depreciated, with Category:Cutaneous conditions being used now. Therefore, would you reconsider allowing the categorization of pyoderma gangrenosum under "Erythemas"? kilbad (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Also, if you or any of your friends are interested in dermatology, perhaps you could help with the task force? Regardless, thanks again! kilbad (talk) 15:22, 30 October 2008 (UTC)



This would be a revert based on WP:ELNO, not WP:ENGVAR - ENGVAR is for people who alternate or 'correct' between British and American spellings. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 22:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, wrote the wrong thing thinking about something else and not paying attention. Thanks again for bringing it to my attention, too bad edit summarries can't be edited for errors like this! Later,--CrohnieGalTalk 10:37, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Crohn's IP vandal

Hi, appreciate your frustration, but generally IPs anons get the message with a block of a few hours and go away. This one returned same/next day, and in same manner of being disruptive - so I've blocked for over a day hoping they will finally get the message... let me know if they return and I'll ramp up the exclusion for this vandalism-only account :-) David Ruben Talk 14:14, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Rod of asclepius.png
If you are interested in medicine-related themes, you may want to check out the Medicine Portal.
If you are interested in contributing more to medical related articles you may want to join WikiProject Medicine (signup here).

David Ruben Talk 19:10, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks David, I have watchlisted to the links to look at later. Sorry for taking so long to respond, missed your comments. As for the IP vandal, he returned again only once so far and was quickly reverted. I will pop into your page if s/he continues again as before. Thanks again for everything, --CrohnieGalTalk 16:31, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


Just a note to say thanks for your efforts to keep some of the articles related to the crime projects from vandalism, additions of trivia and irrelevant content. Keep up the good work! Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No problem at all. I have been watching a few of the editors committed to trying to get these articles in order. You all have been polite, working together to keep each other informed, doing the research necessary for citations needed and so on. I don't do much but I am glad that what I do is helpful. You keep up the great work. Oh and the way you handled the editor about homosexual being needed in the article on Jeffrey Dahmer was stated quite delicately IMO. I looked at the contributations and I have to agree with your accessment for the reasons to put this info into the article, which I did comment about briefly on the talk page too, but you said it much beter than I. Thanks again, --CrohnieGalTalk 10:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Trivia section in question

Hi. Apparently I've rubbed someone the wrong way when I removed a newly started trivia section in this article. Or maybe it was that I was super annoyed that someone started it, and worded my hidden note too strongly. In any event, he's raised the issue on the talk page, and I've responded. Would you please look at the discussion at Talk:Susan Atkins#Pop culture reference and (hopefully) support my opinion? Thanks! Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think you resolved it lovely on the talk page, though I was quite surprised to see your remarks in the edit summary, you know the one in all caps! Hey we all lose it I guess, but you very patiently explained why you wrote it that way and then explained that trivia didn't belong, which I too do believe so let me know if I missed more of it. I just checked he conversation out, nothing else as I am just waking up. Have a good day, --CrohnieGalTalk 10:15, 14 November 2008 (UTC)