User talk:Llywrch/Archive17

You have....

.... an email! DuncanHill (talk) 21:23, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Replied to yours, hopefully this one gets through. DuncanHill (talk) 22:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

@DuncanHill: & now I received yours. Thanks. -- llywrch (talk) 22:13, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

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Lets talk about Marcus Papirius Mugillanus and the List of Roman Consuls

Heyo again!

I just want to have some response and opinion from you in regards to your revert in regards to M. Papirius Mugilanus and M. Papirius Atratinus for the consul of 411 BC.

While Livy has the name of M. Papirius Atratinus he is also known to have several instances where the names he provides for the consular tribunes of the 5th and 4th century BC does not agree with any other source, be they fasti or other ancient historians.

The List as provided by Wikipedia leads with the following statement: Unless otherwise indicated, the names and dates of the consuls between 509 and 81 BC are taken from Thomas Broughton's The Magistrates of the Roman Republic.

Thus my arguments are as follows: As Broughton and apparently Ogilvie on his commentary on Livy both are in agreement on Mugillanus as the consul of 411 over that of the cognomen of Atratinus, this seems to be a logical choice for Wikipedias list to follow. Additionally one should add that other sources, such as the Fasti Hydatius and that of the Chronograph of 354 list him as Mugillanus.

CutieyKing (talk) 22:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

I should also add that the arguments that Ogilvie brings forth of a college of three existing with a Papirius, Nautius and Sempronius even further strengthens that Papirius should have the cognomen of Mugillanus while the unknown Sempronius carried the cognomen of Atratinus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CutieyKing (talk • contribs) 22:14, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

@CutieyKing: I was about to drop a note on your Talk page about this, but you beat me to it. And I do want to tell you that I appreciate your work in writing articles on the Republican consuls. These are articles that Wikipedia do need written.

A few years back I subjected the List of Roman Consuls to a fairly thorough revising with the goal of providing reliable sources for this entire list. (Which is mostly complete, however I ran out of steam just before I completed the entire list; the part concerning the Late Roman Empire still needs a last tidying up.) In doing so, I found that the list as we receive it is not as simple as it appears. For example, no list for the suffect consuls of Imperial Rome has come down to us complete, & the names of these office-holders need to be compiled from various sources. (Which means reading lots of academic articles in various foreign languages, evaluating their arguments & rectifying their disagreements.) More to this point under discussion, while there is one list of the Republican consuls, this list is like a Classical text that exists in a number of manuscripts with conflicting readings. Moreover, there is evidence that even the reconstructed list does not accurately report all of the names of the men who were Republican consuls (or Consular Tribunes). Even the copy that Livy worked from may not be accurate: Polybius in his History reports a different first pair of consuls than the received tradition. (I don't have my notes or my copy of Polybius at hand as I type this, but believe it was Junius Brutus & Lucretius Tricipitinus). This led me to decide that one element that needed to be emphasized is that there are portions of this list, especially in the earlier parts, with different names.

I know Broughton is an authority -- if not the authority -- for the Republican portion of this list, but there are expert opinions about various pairs (or "colleges"), & 411 BC is one of them. Ogilvie's paper goes into further detail why the tradition that begins with the Fasti Capitollini should not be uncritically accepted -- maybe I summarized too concisely what he wrote. So I included his corrections, with footnotes, where they make sense. (I'll admit that Ogilvie is something of a radical deconstructionist critic of the history of Republican Rome, pace Livy, but he does make arguments that need to be taken seriously.)

As for the the identity of the Papirius of 411 BC, the only sensible answer is, "We don't know." Was Papirius Mugillanus consul in 411 BC? Or was the consul one M. Papirius Atratinus? Or was there a Papirius with an altogether different cognomen? We simply don't know, & probably never will. I prefer the Atratinus based on (1) Livy draws on an older, & likely less corrupted source than the Fasti, (2) following the rule of lectio difficilior: when faced with a choice between two readings, always select the more difficult one, & (3) I would like this list to vary in some places from Broughton's. (Yes, #3 is the weakest argument, but it is worth considering.) -- llywrch (talk) 23:03, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Vistilia

What exactly was hard to understand about the move? And what was the benefit to completly deleting the gens article? And to merge the two article about the women into one same Wikipedia:FRANKENSTEIN page again?★Trekker (talk) 20:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

The Months of African Cinema Contest Continues in November!

Greetings,

Thank you very much for participating in the Months of African Cinema global contest/edit-a-thon, and thank you for your contributions so far.

It is already the middle of the contest and a lot have been achieved already! We have been able to get over 1,500 articles created in over fifteen (15) languages! This would not have been possible without your support and we want to thank you. If you have not yet listed your name as a participant in the contest page please do so.

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Precious anniversary

Precious

One year!

Will you run for arbcom again? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:46, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi Gerda Arendt! First, I want to thank you once again for the Precious Award. We Wikipedians far too often fail to acknowledge each other's contributions.

As to your question, I have thought about it & doubt I will -- unless I am certain I can successfully run for the position. I don't want to be one of these perennial candidates (such as Harold Stassen), or seen as a gadfly & general malcontent. I'm here to make Wikipedia better resource, which I hope I'm doing with my writing; I don't need to be on the ArbCom to do that. If I'm not cut out for it, I'm willing to live with that. -- llywrch (talk) 21:20, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Understand. I just remember that I liked your response last year, and am so used to arbs not looking, that someone looking would be a nice change. On the other hand, I - and my friends I guess - have no intention to ever have to do with them, so not immediately threatened. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

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I invite you give an input on this Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Faustus Cornelius Sulla (grandson of Sulla), as you have previously displayed the means and capability to solve problems of the sort. Avis11 (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

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Apologies

Sorry for misreading your edit at Oclatinia (gens)—I confused Marcus Oclatinius Adventus and Titus Oclatius Severus as the same person. They still shouldn't be in boldface, IMO, since the article isn't about either of them, specifically, and the second occurrence isn't using "Oclatius" as a word when it cites Severus as an example, so it shouldn't be italicized there either, although cited by itself as a word is should be and is. I thought I owed it to you to explain why I reverted your edit—and why the reason I gave wasn't quite right, even though the result should be the same. I'm annoyed not to find any other Oclatini in the C-S databank, however. Do you have any theories about this? Do you suppose he could have been the only person with this nomen—a gens of one? Or is he merely the only member of an obscure family to come to light from known inscriptions? The number of inscriptions mentioning him make it seem improbable that "Oclatinius" is a mistake for the known "Oclatius". And as he doesn't seem to have any other names, it doesn't seem likely that it's a cognomen. ATM I'm continuing to suppose that it's an obscure gentilicium, and that others might come to light in the future, but I'm uneasy about that. P Aculeius (talk) 14:57, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi P Aculeius, no harm. My rationale is that redirects for both Oclatinius & Oclatius point to this article, & to minimize the element of surprise for the user I thought it might be best to embolden both names. Otherwise said person will be scratching their head, wondering why they ended up at this article. Which reminds me of something...

Writing articles on Roman consuls, I have found that for a quarter of the known office holders all we know about them is their name. (Sometimes we also know the date they were consul, sometimes their colleague, often not even those details.) So to avoid the creation of permastubs that say little more than "X was a Roman senator during the principate who was consul", I have been creating redirects from those names in List of Roman Consuls to the relevant gens article. While this works for the plethora of Julii, Claudii & Aurelii, there still remains a few individuals who are the only known members of their gens, such as Oclatinius. Maybe Oclatinius is not a good example, since I've stumbled on enough information about him to justify a stand-alone article. On the other hand are a couple of articles I've recently worked on such as Marcus Aefulanus (who has a few more than half a dozen other members in his gens) or Gaius Vellaeus Tutor (who has even fewer) whose article would be better written about their gens, although not much more can be said of them. So what should we do in these situations...? -- llywrch (talk) 21:34, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, I feel somewhat reassured about one thing: there are obviously many more Romans whose names we don't know at all, from any source, than whose names are mentioned in history or engraved on known surviving artifacts, and no doubt that accounts for many of the "gentes of one". If the existence of a gens can be reasonably inferred from at least a few inscriptions, but not more than a few dozen, at most, I'm likely to write an article listing the ones who are known. Obviously bigger gentes are more deserving of articles—but it's impractical to create articles listing hundreds of persons about whom there's almost nothing to be said, while the more obscure gentes are more likely to be overlooked entirely without one. But what to do? As a stopgap measure, go ahead and create biographical stubs for the ones who don't have any corresponding gens articles. They can always be deleted if and when a corresponding article about the gens is created. But I'm not sure about redirecting links to obscure persons to their gentes. I did that at one point, but it made it difficult to create redlinks in their gens articles without creating recursive links, which typically got deleted by other well-meaning editors. Perhaps the better technique is to place a link to the gens either early in the article, or in a "see also" section at the end—or both. I think at an early stage in the gens project, I tried to add "see also" links to the gens in all Roman biographical articles I visited, and I still think that might be a good idea. P Aculeius (talk) 22:17, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

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Merry Merry!

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2021!

Hello Llywrch, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2021. Happy editing, ★Trekker (talk) 16:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

Julius Cornutus Tertullus

New to Wikipedia... Would you kindly look over my chapter which has several pages on the prosopography and inscriptions of the cognomen Tertullus and determine whether you believe it to be worth including in that Wikipedia entry?

“Pliny’s Correspondence and the Acts of the Apostles: An Intertextual Relationship?” Luke on Jesus, Paul and Christianity: What Did He Really Know? Edited by J. Verheyden and J. S. Kloppenborg. BTS 29 (Leuven: Peeters, 2017) 147–69. doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.3745661

Thank you! Vocesanticae (talk) 19:12, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

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Inquiry from American journalist

Hi, I'm a writer for The Ringer, the American tech, culture, and sports site. We're running a package of Wikipedia-related articles this Friday for the 20th anniversary of Wikipedia, and I'm working on an article about the wonderfully entertaining "Lamest edit wars" page. I'm trying to include some thoughts from people who've contributed to the page, and I noticed that you'd made a few edits to it over a long period (first in 2006, last in 2020). Could you tell me a little bit about your involvement with the page, why it appeals to you, or what you think its existence says about the positive or negative aspects of Wikipedia? Curious about how you found it, how you improved it, and what your favorite edit war is. My deadline is late Thursday, Eastern Time. Hope to hear back!

Thank you,

Ben Lindbergh
Staff Writer, The Ringer
@BenLindbergh
BenLindbergh (talk) 20:34, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Marcus (Popilius) Pedo Vergilianus

Hi, Llywrch! As you might have seen on the CGR talk page, there was some discussion about the name "Caepia" and whether it could be the feminine form of "Caepio", either as the surname of the Servilii Caepiones, or even more strangely, as a nomen gentilicium, for which I found some scanty and rather inconclusive evidence. In the course of trying to decide whether "Caepio" could be a nomen, or should be regarded as something else, such as a surname in a partial nomenclature omitting a familiar nomen, or perhaps even the result of errors, someone raised the example of Marcus Pedo Vergilianus as possible evidence that nomina could have a third-declension -o stem, and I said I didn't think that Pedo could be a nomen in this case.

I then realized that you and I had discussed this unfortunate consul before, but at that time I could not find his PW entry (it turns out to have been in supplement 15—I had to search most of the supplements before I found it, and didn't see 15–17 the first time because they were sorted under another file format). I summarized what it said about him being (probably) a Popilius in the discussion at CGR, but I'd like to know if you have any opinion on this—if we accept this assessment, I think it would be appropriate to move the article to that title; I'd be more comfortable with it there than at its present title, but I defer to your expertise. P Aculeius (talk) 22:00, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

P Aculeius, sorry for the delay. I saw your message Sunday & a few hours later my power went out. In the excitement that followed (trying to stay warm while wondering how fast the power company would help us return to the 21st century), I forgot about your question until now.

First about the thread in CGR. I saw it, started looking into the matter, but found I had little to offer -- except sending a belated thanks to @Avilich: for the link to the Arctos archive. All of you delved into the questions there further than I had. My original search in Salomies' Adoptive and polyonymous nomenclature in the Roman Empire turned up nothing about him, so I effectively struck out there. Although if "Vergilianus" is his cognomen, it would suggest his mother was a Vergila; adding -ianus to the mother's gentilicum to create a cognomen was an old Roman practice, & a few examples from the 2nd century could be produced.

As for whether he belongs to gens Pedo or gens Vergilianus... that is a good question. Attilio DeGrassi & others call him M. Pedo Vergilianus, although without an explanation. I did find some inscriptions from 115 using consular dating, but all that does is establish his name elements were "Pedo" (which CIL VI, 31148, CIL VI, 32637 called him) & some "Verglianus" (which others called him). As you wrote, 4 other inscriptions refer to him as M. Vergilianus Pedo & one as M. Pedo Vergilianus, & there are more examples of gens Vergilianus than of the other; & Romans occasionally sometimes reversed the gentilicum & the cognomen -- all of which suggest he belonged to gens Vergilianus. However, sometimes there is a good argument out there explaining why the simplest solution is not the correct one, & we simply haven't encountered it. (One reason I prefer to cite an expert to state the obvious: they have not only done more research than us on the matter, they have the resources to do more than us.) As for Popilius, while I trust Eck to be right nevertheless I wish I could find his article to see what he actually wrote. I looked thru the copy of PW at de.wikisource, & could not find it, & the one library in my area with a copy of that massive reference is closed to the public due to the epidemic.

So in short, I don't know what to think. The fact that the elements in his name were often reversed needs to be mentioned in his article. And if Eck is right about him being a Popilius, that would help define a few more Senatorial families. All I can advise is to do what you think is correct. But I will make sure there is a redirect at Marcus Pedo Vergilianus if you rename the article. -- llywrch (talk) 21:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

A few years ago, I found a source that—perhaps with dubious legality—had made scans of all the pages of all the volumes, including 17 or 18 supplements. Realizing how vital PW was and how hard it is to access (my local copy, which at one point many years ago I was allowed to take home in stacks to catalogue Romans, since the books had been gathering dust since they were new, to the chagrin of the Classics Department chairman, who had lobbied for their purchase, is now kept in closed stacks, and can only be retrieved a couple of volumes at a time by scheduling an appointment for the reference librarian to go get them), I downloaded all the scans and now can look up any article and type it into Google Translate, which does a fair job with German (but not, sadly, very well with Latin, to say nothing of German with Latin words and phrases and scholarly abbreviations). Anyway, the Popilius Pedo articles were short, and I typed them both out. Here's what they say, first in German, then in English(ish):

38 a) Popilius Pedo Apronianus. Sein nomen gentile ist durch eine Inschrift aus Asturien bekannt: Opilio Pedone, Dessau 9131. Mit aller Wahrscheinlichkeit ist es zu [P]opilio zu verbessern, Dessau zur Inschrift; vgl. G. Barbieri L'albo senatorio nr. 431 (vgl. ferner den Namen des Konsuls vom J. 147: C. Popilius Carus Pedo); in CIL VI 1980: ...ius Pedo Apronianus. Consul ordinarius im J. 191 n. Chr. mit M. Valerius Bradua Mauricus, Dessau 9131 und Fasti. Während seines Prokonsulates von Asia (IGR IV 1282) ließ ihn Septimius Severus ca. 205 n. Chr. töten. Ihm wurde zum Vorwurf gemacht, seine Amme habe einmal geträumt, er werde Kaiser werden, sowie, er habe sich der Magie bedient, Cassius Dio LXXVI 8, 1. Wohl mit M. Popilius Pedo, salius Palatinus (CIL VI 1977), verwandt; er gehörte also wahrscheinlich dem Patriziat an (Dessau 9131, jetzt auch Ann. ép. 1966, 188).

38 b) M. (Popilius) Vergilianus Pedo. Sein nomen gentile ist aus dem Namen des Konsuls von 191 n. Chr. erschlossen (s. Nr. 38 a). Consul ordinarius im J. 115 n. Chr. zusammen mit L. Vipstanus Messalla, CIL VI 43, 44, 543, 791, 1984, 2404, 2411, 31148, XV 20, 21, 22; Ann. Ep. 1949, 23. Nach Cassius Dio LXVIII 25, 1 starb er während seines Konsulats. [Werner Eck.]

38 a) Popilius Pedo Apronianus. His nomen gentile is known from an inscription from Asturias: Opilio Pedone, Dessau 9131. In all probability it can be improved to [P]opilio, Dessau to the inscription; see G. Barbieri L'albo senatorio no. 431 (cf. also the name of the consul of 147: C. Popilius Carus Pedo); in CIL VI 1980: ... ius Pedo Apronianus. Consul ordinarius in 191 AD with M. Valerius Bradua Mauricus, Dessau 9131 and Fasti. During his proconsulate of Asia (IGR IV 1282) Septimius Severus had him killed around 205 AD. He was reproached for having once dreamed of his wet nurse becoming emperor and for having used magic, Cassius Dio LXXVI 8, 1. Probably related to M. Popilius Pedo, Salius Palatinus (CIL VI 1977); so he probably belonged to the patriciate (Dessau 9131, now also Ann. ép. 1966, 188).

38 b) M. (Popilius) Vergilianus Pedo. His nomen gentile is derived from the name of the consul of 191 AD (see No. 38 a). Consul ordinarius in 115 AD together with L. Vipstanus Messalla, CIL VI 43, 44, 543, 791, 1984, 2404, 2411, 31148, XV 20, 21, 22; Ann. Ep. 1949, 23. According to Cassius Dio LXVIII 25, 1 he died during his consulate. [Werner Eck.]

I will say that, absent any proof to the contrary, neither Pedo nor Vergilianus is a nomen gentilicium. I could be persuaded if that's what the experts say, but if they use the word gens in combination with these names, I would tend to guess that they were using the word carelessly unless context made it clear that they really were making the claim that such names were gentilicia, rather than surnames. And if these people were Popilii, then they were certainly not gentilicia in these examples, if indeed any examples of them where they could actually be gentilicia can be found. My surmise is that they were never gentile names, and that where they occur without a nomen, the nomen has simply been omitted, as it seemed unnecessary at the time, or in some cases perhaps by accident. P Aculeius (talk) 22:16, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

On a personal note, I understand about the power situation. I've been expecting long-term power outages since Thursday's ice storm, to which we've added snow and more ice three times since, with little chance of the ice melting off for another few days, if then—and then another storm expected over the weekend. I lost a lot of branches, possibly a small tree, but the power has stayed on, except for a few very brief outages, all combined under a minute. But who knows—a few years ago I was without power in the dead of winter for more than a week on two separate occasions. P Aculeius (talk) 22:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

First of all, I'm glad I could be of help with regards to the Finnish archive. As for the subject matter, I could find the following:

• Salomies 1998, p. 201 n. 6, writes, "the nomen of this consul has yet to be established", and also notes that, in inscriptions where the subjects are referred to by one cognomen only, the consul is referred to as either Pedo or Vergilianus, only one in each occasion, suggesting both are cognomina.
• Salomies, again in p. 201, notes that gentilicia are sometimes omitted for the sake of shortening names, resulting in potentially misleading formulations. Salomies provides as examples L. Lollianus Avitus (short for L. Hedius Rufus Lollianus Avitus) and C. Annianus Verus (short for C. Ummidius Quadratus Annianus Verus). In absence of further evidence, Lollianus, Annianus, and Vergilianus could all be thought to be nomina. This was, of course, already common during the late Republic (e.g. Q. Metellus Pius and Q. Caepio Brutus), but for the Empire it's much more difficult to decipher.
• Syme suggests 'Pompeius Pedo' over Popilius.
• Burgess 2000, p. 267 n. 31, oddly writes that 'Pedo' is a gentilicium and provides more examples of 'Vergilianus' being used (seemingly) as a cognomen.
• There are twice as many google scholar search results for "Pedo Vergilianus" as for "Vergilianus Pedo".

Based on the unsatisfactory evidence, I lean towards keeping the title 'Marcus Pedo Vergilianus' as it is. Imho it's more likely that 'Vergilianus', being derived from 'Vergilius', is just really a cognomen, unlike (say) 'Norbanus' or 'Albinovanus', both of which are gentilicia and are not derived from any other nomen I know of. Names ending in -anus also generally seem to come last in the nomenclature, like Flavius Vespasianus and Flavius Domitianus (name followed by adjectival distinguisher), as well as the example of Popilius Pedo Apronianus provided above. Whether 'Pedo' is a gentilicium or not is anyone's guess. Avilich (talk) 01:04, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

It's highly unlikely to be a gentilicium—it's well-attested as a surname, and I'm not aware of any nomina that have this form, barring a very small number of examples of Caepio that could all represent omitted nomina or errors—one of which could be the result of it being the dative and ablative singular of Caepius, which was clearly a nomen gentilicium. Names ending in -anus (and the similar -inus) have what I would call a "derivative" ending—not necessarily the same as a "diminutive", but in the sense of "descended from" or "related to", but in some cases, such as Norbanus and Albinovanus, they're derived not from the name of a person, but of a place—Norba, in the former instance, and perhaps a place called Albinova, now lost to history. But these are clearly nomina, as there are numerous examples of Norbanus from the republican period, if I recall correctly, and a few of Albinovanus, all or most of which follow republican forms—the binomial "praenomen + nomen" or classic tria nomina. Although as I recall, Norbanus stumped early modern scholars, who guessed that it was a surname of another gens, perhaps a branch of the Junii.

As for Syme's claim (I'll have to take your word for it) that -anus was typical of Etruscan nomina, I point out that Norba is in Latium, nowhere near Etruria, while Albinova—if such a place existed—also seems to have a Latin name. Masculine gentiles ending in -na were typically Etruscan, but I don't recall any source so describing -anus, which was a common Latin termination, if uncommon for a gentilicium. What does Syme have to say about the other Popilii mentioned in PW—or does he address Eck's conclusions? P Aculeius (talk) 03:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Postscript: I've just read what Salomies, Syme, and Burgess have to say about our mystery consul. Salomies states that neither Vergilianus nor Pedo is a nomen here, and later on says that Pedo should be deleted from the catalogue of nomina that he previously developed; he notes that Popilius is the suggestion of PIR, and offers no contradictory opinion. Syme begins his brief discussion with Popillius (two 'l's), based on the consul of 147, and only suggests Pompeius as an alternative based on an earlier consular, but I see nothing to indicate that he finds this preferable to Popillius, other than that he notes that there had not been any earlier consular Popillii under the Empire (although as he notes, there was a later one). Burgess' use of "nomen" in passing—in a footnote—does not inspire me with confidence that he considered Pedo to be a literal nomen gentilicium. I think he was using the word carelessly, probably in the sense that Pedo occurred in the place of a nomen in this instance, not because he was asserting the existence of a gens Pedonia, of which Pedo would be the nomen. As he does not mention Popilius or any other nomen in connection with the consul, I don't think Burgess adds much to the question of his gentilicium. Scholarship seems to tilt strongly in favour of Popilius, with Syme alone suggesting Pompeius as a possible alternative, although PW presents more evidence than Syme discussed. P Aculeius (talk) 04:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

Having read all of this, I've come to the conclusion that Marcus Pedo Vergilianus probably should keeps its current name, but it needs a paragraph explaining that because "Pedo" is not otherwise attested as a gentilicum (although many gentilica are attested by single individuals), & Vergilianus is possibly a cognomen, various experts have suggested that another element in his name is missing, either the most suggested "Popilius" because 2 other consular Popilii share the cognomen "Pedo", or (as Syme suggests) it may be "Pompeius" based on the Senator Claudius is alleged to have executed, Pompeius Pedo. Does that make sense? (And if no one responds here, I'll copy this over to the other thread for input.) -- llywrch (talk) 00:14, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I trust your judgment, Llywrch, and will happily add such a paragraph unless you'd rather do it yourself. I'll make the Popilius version redirect to it, and if at some point it becomes preferable, the two can just be flipped. P Aculeius (talk) 00:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

After forgetting about this for a few days, P Aculeius, I finally updated that article with the information above. (I put it in its own section because, well, it is a self-contained issue.) Let me know what you think of the addition. -- llywrch (talk) 19:12, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I think it could stand a little work—but it's my fault you had to resolve all of this with an issue you didn't set out to research, since I didn't get around to it! I'm also doubtful about his name constituting the only section prior to references—my inclination is to move most of the lead into its own section. I would feel bad about revising this if it made you feel like you did all this work for nothing—I really appreciate your work, although in this case I think it could probably be streamlined while at the same time including additional relevant details. Perhaps I could propose text here and get your reaction—if I manage to get it done tomorrow. P Aculeius (talk) 04:38, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I'd hardly resent you rewriting my edit to that article, P Aculeius; I'm not entirely happy with it, since I see now I left out a detail or two. In any case we're all working to improve the content of Wikipedia. -- llywrch (talk) 06:05, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

I've had a go at it, in the article rather than here on your talk page. Please let me know if you think it's acceptable! You may note a spot or two where it could use additional documentation—particularly as I believe I caught a mistake: Vergilianus could not have been consul at the time of his death, if his consulship was in January, and the earthquake was in December. I think my explanation of his presence in Antioch is simply stating the obvious, but it really ought to have a source, if one can be found that would support this statement. P Aculeius (talk) 14:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

@P Aculeius: The date of that earthquake is definitely a surprise; I've always assumed it happened in the first months of 115! Considering that having the day & month for an event like that is unusual for the 2nd century -- more often than not, we are fortunate to have even a rough idea what part of the year something happened in, & often we don't even have the year -- I feel compelled to figure out where that date came from. (Sometimes tracking that information leads to useful results; that's how I found the date for the Battle of Cannae.) -- llywrch (talk) 21:41, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's a good point—I didn't check for the source of the date of the earthquake; I simply assumed the date in our article was correct. Checking Cassius Dio, I don't see a date, but Dio says that Trajan was wintering in Antioch when the earthquake struck, and then began his campaign in the spring. If I read the article on his campaign correctly—and no, I didn't check the sources for that, either!—Trajan was at Antioch in the winter of 115–116—months after Vergilianus would have resigned his office. The sources listed in the article about the earthquake might lead to a source for the date—one of them apparently is an article that gives this date in the title. I also note that the Ides of December fell on the 13th—that might have provided a handy time reference in Roman sources, although obviously it would be better to know if there really is a Greek or Roman source for the precise date, and then to cite it. P Aculeius (talk) 23:54, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

@P Aculeius: I found the source. First, Julian Bennett in his Trajan: Optimus Princeps confirms that Trajan was spending the winter of 115/116 in Antioch, as opposed to the winter of 114/115; the chronology of his movements better fit the later winter than the earlier. As for the exact date, this comes from the Chronicle of John Malalas:

In the reign of the most divine Trajan the great (city) of Antioch by Daphne suffered its third disaster (an earthquake) on the 13th day of the month Apellaios, i.e. December, on the first day, after the cock's crow, in the year called 164 according to the Antiochians, in the second year after the presence (in Antioch) of the most divine emperor Trajan on his way to the east. (Translated by Robert K. Sherk, The Roman Empire: Augustus to Hadrian)

While Malalas is known to be sometimes unreliable about his dates, Bennett shows that if 13 December is not correct, it is close to the true date of the earthquake, & in any case Pedo Vergilianus was not in office at the time of his death. So I'll need to add this citation to the article. -- llywrch (talk) 06:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

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Consuls 150/51 AD

Hi Llywrch. I ask for your help with something. The source currently used for the consuls under Antoninus is Werner Eck, who places, with some reluctance, the suffecti C. Curtius Justus and P. Julius Nauto in 151 AD. Cooley on the other hand reluctantly prefers 150. There's this apparently newly-discovered inscription which names C. Curtius Justus as consul in c. December 150 with an obscure C(aio) Iulio Iuliano. One could presume that Justus held office with these both men as colleagues, but the German Wiki (which has an article on C. Julius Julianus) seems to suggest that Nauto may be entirely made up. Do you have access to sources or knowledge that could settle this issue? Thank you in advance. Avilich (talk) 22:33, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Avilich Hi back atcha. For once I have the relevant sources at hand, so I can provide a speedy answer.

First, Cooley for some reason bases the section of the Consul List on Alföldy, Konsulat und Senatorenstand unter der Antoninen, published in 1977, instead of Werner Eck, whose work was an updating of Alföldy (actually, part of a Festschrift for Alföldy) published in 2013. So on that basis, I'm inclined to follow Eck for populating the consuls of 150 & 151. But this deserves a more closer look, because all three authors (Alföldy, Cooley, & Eck) admit that Justus & Nauto could have been suffecti in either 150 or 151. Cooley admits in her footnotes that she is simply copying Alföldy, so she has nothing to offer here. Alföldy prefers to put the pair in the last quarter of 150 based on the chronology of Justus' career; reviewing the evidence, I don't see anything that forces us to accept 150 over 151. (Yeah, I know this borders on original research, but making the pieces from reliable sources fit together sometimes requires us to bend the rules. As long as we explain what we've done.) Looking at Eck, who prefers 151, he notes that one L. Novius Crispinus Martialis Saturninus is mentioned as a consul designate in an inscription dated between 10 December 149 & 10 December 150: Saturninus could have held the fasces in the last quarter of 150, so there is no need to put Justus & Nauto in that year. Based on Eck (assuming I understand him properly), the balance of evidence puts Justus & Nauto in 151. However, to follow WP:NPOV we should probably add a note that some authorities (such as Alföldy, p. 156) believe they were suffecti in 150.

Now Eck cites AE 1922, 135 (which means the German Wiki is wrong to suggest Nauto did not exist) which has the date 2 October. (BTW, According to Alföldy, except for this one inscription he is otherwise unknown -- not unusual, but worth keeping in mind while considering the following.) This new document with the names of C. Curtius Justus & C. Julius Julianus -- according to the pictures on Clauss-Slaby, it appears to be a military diploma -- is dated to 19 November ( = a.d. xiii kalendas Decembres). There is no reason to conclude that Nauto left office between 2 October & 19 November, & the remainder of his term was filled by Julius Julianus; officials have been known to die in office. This would be the simplest solution: in either 150 or 151, Justus & Nauto began their consulship 1 October; Nauto died some time in the following 6 weeks, denied further opportunities to appear in the historical record; Julianus was then appointed to serve the remainder of the nundinium.

Does this make sense? -- llywrch (talk) 07:50, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi Llywrch, I hope you don't mind if I interfere here, but there's an article about the 2 consuls by Roger S. O. Tomlin, John Pearce: A Roman Military Diploma for the German Fleet (19 November 150) Found in Northern Britain ZPE 206 (2018), pp 207–216, which on pp 214–216 assigns the 2 consuls to October and November 150. Unfortunately the article isn't online. Cheers --Agentjoerg (talk) 12:16, 25 March 2021 (UTC) PS According to Tomlin/Pearce Nauto is a misspelling of Julianus made by the scribe.

It apparently is online. Avilich (talk) 13:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It says that the transcript Πουπλιω Ιουλιω Ναυτωνε (Publio Iulio Nautone) is actually quite a questionable reading, and claims the cognomen Nauto is otherwise unattested. The paper, which I found out just now, says without sign of doubt that Justus and Julianus were consuls in October–November 150. Avilich (talk) 17:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the proper date is 19 November 150. I made a mistake, which I only realized this morning. Roman military diplomas contain three different methods of dating: by consuls (which works if one knows the dates for the consuls), the sets of witnesses (which is not exact, but is better than nothing), & by the year of the tribunicia potestas (or tribunican power) of the emperor -- which narrows things to the year. (All three together make complete military diplomas very valuable for chronology: they are some of the few documents from Roman times with accurate dates.) The year of the tribunicia potestas is clearly preserved in this document, & thus the year is verified as 150. (I should not type out replies late at night when I should be in bed asleep.) On the matter of Nauto, however...

Tomlin makes a very persuasive argument, & he is far more knowledgeable about these matters than I (to say the least), but I'm just not convinced. Yes, no other example of the cognomen "Nauto" is attested, but there are many unique cognomina known. As for the possibility of a scribal error, it just seems odd that a scribe would be so off with his ability to read Latin, & write out the Greek for "Publius" instead of "Gaius", then misread "Julianus" for "Nauto". Yes, scribes make mistakes, & some are more sloppy about writing unfamiliar names than others, but the suffect consuls were prominent enough for scribes (who deal with official dating on a regular basis) to recognize & make an effort to get the date right. And at this point in time, the names of ordinary consuls were increasingly used for an entire year rather than those of suffects, so if the scribe had any trouble reading the name, he would have simply dated the document with the names of that year's consuls--Gallicanus & Vetus--than guess at a poorly written name of the relevant suffect consul.

But I guess the proper way to handle this would be to put C. Julius Julianus in this place, but with a footnote to state Nauto has been read as suffect consul in 2 October, & if correct Nauto died before 19 November when Julianus is attested in his place. -- llywrch (talk) 18:38, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

That takes care of the problem. As always, many thanks for your time and help, and to Agentjoerg as well. Avilich (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

PR for Mynors

Hi Llywrch, I just wanted to let you know that the PDF you mentioned at the peer review for Mynors is stupendous. I wish I had had it when I wrote the core of this article! Thank you very much; I'm sure it will improve the article a lot. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 23:48, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

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Massacre at Thessalonica

Hi! I am not here to nag, I just wanted to let you know I now have a second article up for review, and am overwhelmed with a project in my real life that I am lead on, but I promise I will keep up with whatever you give me to do just as quickly as is humanly possible - even if I have to stay up all night to do it. :-) I am so grateful to you for being willing to do this review. I hope you found this article as interesting to read as I found researching it. Hope you are well, see you again soon I hope.Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:21, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@Jenhawk777: No, I understand: I've been moved to a new group at work & I'm overwhelmed with the challenges there too. (And I get distracted with other articles too.) It's going to be a couple of days before I get everything in order to give the Massacre article a useful review, so don't feel pressured on your behalf. -- llywrch (talk) 05:25, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Got it! Whenever you're ready, I'll be there! Thanx again. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:18, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I saw you made an edit on the article today, does this mean you're back? Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:27, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Request for assistance

Hi again Llywrch. I was wondering if you could help me with this rather complicated problem which has been lingering unresolved for awhile now. Some 5 years ago one editor, now retired, created a bunch of redirects titled Claudia Pulchra ([qualifier]) and a disambiguation page to list them all. After some research I concluded that this was all wrong, and that the only person of this name was the wife of Quinctilius Varus of the Teutoburg forest. The root problem is simple enough, but I can't seem to undo this mess using the regular Wikipedia procedures.

Back in December I tried taking the individual redirects to RfD, but the community was uncooperative and deletion proposal rejected. Some months later I tried deleting the disambiguation page, but this was likewise rejected because the redirects were still there and deleting the page would cause them to be orphaned. This put me in a bind: the disamb page was now dependent on the redirects, which in turn (due to the failure of the December proposal) could not be deleted by any licit means. I was tempted into breaking the rules a bit by assigning the redirects to a similar-enough ProD-ed page, but I was careless when concealing this act. There was some editwarring and unproductive discussion in the disambiguation article's talk page, and so I took this to ANI, but the board there was next to useless and the discussion automatically archived.

So now a bunch of people think I'm sloppy, disruptive or outright dishonest, either because of that one admittedly shifty maneuver, or because they think me bringing this to ANI was too extreme, or because I partook in an edit war, or because I did not show enough civility to other editors whose reading comprehension I found dismal. As a consequence, there is little else I can do on the matter other than repeat my previous arguments to disinterested parties whose goodwill is essentially gone. The problem on the whole still remains, however: I'm positively sure that only one Claudia Pulchra ever existed, but we still have disambiguation page and those redirects actively casting confusion on the matter. Until now, the sole rationale which the opposition provided for keeping either is that they might be useful to readers, which I find very questionable given all this trouble. As a last resort, I tried opening yet another RfD here (which I'd appreciate if you could comment on) but I'm not optimistic about its outcome.

I know firsthand that you're an assiduous and knowledgeable contributor to Wikipedia, and that your time is not best spent on petty disputes. But you're an administrator with much higher authority and experience than myself, you have a friendly disposition, and you're the only one I trust enough to handle something like this. I thank you for your attention. Avilich (talk) 18:40, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Locust Grove, Oregon

Hello, Llywrch since you are on top of the list, and looking for an image to enhance the article, I was hoping this image of the Locust Grove Church would be suitable. Thank you for your time. Lotje (talk) 06:45, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Lucius Caesennius Sospes

Hi Llywrch, since you are the main editor of the article Lucius Caesennius Sospes, I'd like to ask your help. I'm in the process of enhancing the article in the de.wp and I've come across some interesting deviations with regards to the opinions of historians. Bernard Rémy, for example, dates his governship from 111/112 until 113/114 as opposed to Syme.

But what I find really puzzling, is this section:

This was followed by Sospes serving as military tribune of the Legio XXII Primigenia which was stationed in Pannonia at the time; while serving as a junior officer in the legion, Sospes "received the decorations appropriate to a legate of praetorian rank, expedit(ione) Suebic(a) et Sarm(atica)." Syme explains he earned these dona militaria from actions in Domitian's campaigns in Pannonia around 92, in response to the Sarmatians and Suebi having invaded that province and destroying Legio XXI Rapax.

Now, all other sources, that I have available, state quite explicitly, that Sospes received the dona as Legatus legionis of Legio XIII Gemina and not as military tribune of Legio XXII Primigenia. My sources are:

• Bernard Rémy, p. 145 https://www.persee.fr/doc/anatv_1013-9559_1989_mon_2_1

Depuis toujours de nombreux savants ont pensé que Sospes avait commandé la légion XIII Gemina et gagné ses décorations lors de la guerre de 92, où les Sarmates Iazyges étaient entrés en Pannonie, province de garnison de la XIII Gemina.

• Evgeni I. Paunov, Margaret M. Roxan, p. 272 http://www.uni-koeln.de/phil-fak/ifa/zpe/downloads/1997/119pdf/119269.pdf

Sospes had followed a fairly standard senatorial career until he was appointed as legatus legionis XIII geminae in which capacity he was awarded dona for his participation in an expeditio Suebica et Sarmatica by an unnamed emperor.

• Bogdan Muscalu, p. 315 https://www.academia.edu/3785752/L_Caesennius_Sospes_an_amicus_Domitiani_

Returning to the position of Sospes of legatus legionis XIII Gemina and the discussions regarding expeditio Suebica et Sarmatica, we support the fact that the expedition is the one during Domitian’s reign, during  which  the  character  in  question  is  granted  the  dona  militaria.

If you still have access to the article of Syme, could you check, if Syme is quoted correctly, when stating, that Sospes served as military tribune in Legio XXII Primigenia, when the dona were awarded.

Many thanks in advance. Cheers --Agentjoerg (talk) 16:13, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Agentjoerg:, sorry for the delay in responding. This has been a busy week for me. I do have a copy of Syme's article in pdf format (if you'd like a copy, email me & I will respond with it), & reviewed it based on your inquiry. I have to say that not only does Syme not date the military awards to Sospes' tribunate (in fact, he does not offer a date for it in that article), but the primary source all of these articles base Sospes' career on is cited at the beginning of this article, and it clearly associates this decoration to the period when he was commissioned legatus legionis. (The inscription can be found at CIL III, 6818.) I'm honestly surprised & embarassed that I misquoted Syme at this point so badly, & as soon as I have a chance I'll correct this article. As well as look at the sources you generously provided above to improve the one here in en.wikipedia.

BTW, there is another suggested date for Sospes' governorship of Cappadocia-Galatia: Werner Eck writes in a footnote that for the period June 94-June 95, "möglicherweise war auch Caesennius Sospes noch für kurze Zeit tätig." (Eck, "Jahres- und Provinzialfasten der senatorischen Statthalter von 69/70 bis 138/139", Chiron, 12 (1982), p. 322 n. 165. These two articles in Chiron update the material in his earlier monograph, Senatoren von Vespasian bis Hadrian (Muenchen, 1970).) -- llywrch (talk) 06:48, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Llywrch, I've enhanced the article in the de.wp, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Caesennius_Sospes. On the talk page I've listed all the dates, that historians have brought up with regards to the career of Sospes, according to the sources at my hand, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Lucius_Caesennius_Sospes. Once you've sent me the email, I will check out Syme and take his considerations into account. Cheers --Agentjoerg (talk) 02:57, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

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A goat for you!

Keep up the good work!

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FWIW

I didn’t include you in that ArbCom case because I respect your contributions and you never went out of your way to insult my mental health. You appear to at least understand that I genuinely have some health concerns, even though I see it is concerning you. You have never treated me like a leper, and despite the fact you dislike me you never said I was faking my health issues, or using them as a crutch. And for this I would like to thank you. So whilst we don’t see eye-to-eye, I don’t blame you for disliking me. That is not discrimination, that’s just… human. There is honour in honestly disapproving of another editor, and not targeting their illness. I respect that, though I do not expect likewise. - Aussie Article Writer (talk) 08:54, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

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Unblocks

I'm commenting here to avoid (more) sidetracking at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Piotrus'_concerns_about_User:BrownHairedGirl. Regarding your comment First I knew it was a firm rule to discuss a requested unblock with the blocking admin first, WP:BLOCK has "Except in cases of unambiguous error or significant change in circumstances dealing with the reason for blocking, administrators should avoid unblocking users without first attempting to contact the blocking administrator to discuss the matter." I missed it at one point too. Cheers.—Bagumba (talk) 10:23, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

You forgot to mention the fact that the editor posted an unblock request as such. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:13, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Arbcom notice

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case#BrownHairedGirl and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks, Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Arbitration case request declined

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Dear Llywrch: The BrownHairedGirl arbitration case request, to which you were a named party, has been declined. For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL (alt of L235 · t · c) 07:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• The 'Chronic problem' with Sherlock is that he is, well, Chris Sherlock and all his socks and the wake of destruction every reappearance leaves after returning from every block. Due to him, I'm hardly ever around on Wikipedia these days, but please keep your eyes open, that obsessive sock master will be back. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
  • Kudpung I've honestly tried to, but he is a slippery one. He created his latest account within days of stating his intent to never edit Wikipedia again, although he was not immediately active, & was a model contributor no one suspected. Until he left a note on Slim Virgin's Talk page. Then he went about openly claiming to be Sherlock. It was then only a matter of time before he renewed his attacks on BHG & Duncan, both of whom would have been happy to ignore him. I should have acted quicker, but I misjudged just how much the community would have pushed back -- in other words, far less than I expected. (Plus, despite how it must appear, I am trying to take a break from this website.) As someone has said about him (maybe me, more likely someone smarter than me) the best solution for him is a professional therapist, which neither the Wikipedia community nor the Foundation can provide. -- llywrch (talk) 16:15, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
  • PS, I disagree that he will be back. To use one of my Dad's favorite phrases, I'll bet money he is back: he has created a new account & made edits. Maybe even received some form of praise from an unsuspecting fellow Wikipedian. -- llywrch (talk) 16:18, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

And unfortunately neither the neither the Wikipedia community nor the Foundation have, or are allowed to have, sufficient tools to smoke out such elements, and all Arbcom appears to do is desysop and drive away the very editors who have the institutional memory and the forensic intuition. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:43, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

PS, TonyBallioni was not wrong in bringing the issue to AN, but I'm sure he didn't anticipate the outcome. All those admins who voted 'support', like Arbcom, didn't dig deep enough; they assumed a tad too much GF including such highly respected users such as DGG and Risker. Others admins who failed to see the bigger picture were SlimVirgin, Johnuniq, John M Wolfson, Kusma, Fish and karate, Casliber, Guettarda, Jayron32, Bishonen(Do you think you can do that, Chris?), and even Doc James and Tim Starling had the wool pulled over their eyes. Iridescent was pretty much the only one who saw through Sherlock with 'this editor rightfully earned a well-deserved reputation as a vicious and aggressive bully' and enough gumption to say aloud what he thought. I didn't comment there because I somehow missed it at the time, but when I picked up on it later, having identified new inconsistencies in his behaviour, as you know, he characteristically twisted everything and I bore the consequences. Ironic.

At least you have his IP and this should certainly be an IAR for a CU to check for sleepers before the silly 90 day limit has expired. Perhaps he's already been in our midst for a long time with another admin account and laughing out loud about the whole thing - even that has happened before. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:38, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Kudpung I don't have his IP address: IIRC, most of Australia shares a DHCP pool, which means the only way to block any problematic editor from there is to block the entire country -- which is not a viable solution. All I (& anyone) can do is look at edits & editor behavior & make my best guesses. -- llywrch (talk) 16:44, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm OK with admitting I was wrong. I had overestimated his overtures of good faith as genuine. It's a character fault of mine that I tend to overextend good faith to people. It is not a mistake I intend to make again with Chris Sherlock. I apologize for my failures here. I only pray that the community doesn't hold it against me too stridently going forward. --Jayron32 11:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

my opinion about Sherlock was 2 years ago. I would have said differently now. DGG ( talk ) 04:48, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

And I was also wrong about him then, too. A lot of us made that mistake. As I wrote above, he is a model Wikipedian until he isn't, which surprises everyone who hasn't witnessed that. And I fully expect we will witness this again. (And if Chris is lurking here, I want to tell you this: Wikipedia is not a healthy place for you. Being here & interacting with others here, this brings out your worse qualities. Please find another hobby -- for your own well being.) -- llywrch (talk) 16:44, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

@Kudpung: letting wishful thinking cloud my judgement is probably a bad thing. It's especially bad when doing so allows a cascading sequence of conflict to build. I apologise, and will try to do better in the future. Thanks for the ping. Guettarda (talk) 18:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Incivility is about two orders of magnitude easier to clean up after than problematic editing (such as misrepresenting sources or copyvio). in general, any editor with a track record of incivility that is unblocked in a fashion such as this will be watched closely and further infractions after unblocking dealt with promptly. Thus if a person such as this contributes content I am often open to unblock as Wikipedia:Give 'em enough rope will apply. They will either sink or swim. For instance, this situation is proving to be much more of a headache....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:40, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

• @Jayron32, DGG, Jayron32, Guettarda, and Casliber: Heartfelt thanks to everyone who replied. I don't think anyone needs to incriminate themselves or apologise - it certainly wasn't my intention by pinging everyone. What I was pointing out was how easy it is to assume too much good faith. Everyone has their own personal threshold for what constitutes a sanctionable offense. Everyone has their own priorities of how much time they will spend researching some strange occurences or behaviour. Some people devote a painstaking dedication to detail in some things, particularly when they get whiff of something odd; some don't. Some (names redacted) do it out of sheer malevolence. At least in this latest BHG fiasco, Arbcom threw it back at ANI while confirming the fate of Chris Sherlock.

Perhaps Casliber was particularly forgiving because, stranger than fiction, he has met Sherlock in RL (but they are nearly neighbours on their vast continent). This situation is a classic of the kind of issues I used to investigate, and as Cas knows only too well, it can take many hours of research. What Chris Sherlock (whatever his real name is) and his socks do while hiding behind some 'good' work, is to pick out a victim, troll and harass them, and then make constant recriminations and dragging people before ANI or Arbcom when threatened with exposure for what he is: an architect of the most nasty behaviour imaginable on Wikipedia. And like others, I am also sure he's still in our midst - it's his MO. It's what he does. A total insistance on AGF is not always best for Wikipedia, sometimes it's best to IAR. Some of us still remember Pastor Theo, and Rlevse.

FWIW, at least one of Sherlocks IPs locates to an address in Wollongong, NSW. Maybe he likes Thai food - now there's irony... Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It's AGF until proven otherwise. Paul August ☎ 23:18, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes I have met Chris. And (obviously) I know alot more IRL stuff than is public. And he's not some criminal mastermind that you seem to be portraying above. So I recommend dropping this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:08, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Closure request?

May I request your involvement in a discussion which I'd like to see closed? A closure has already been requested at Closure Requests but the request fell on deaf years, and I can't close it myself because I'm involved. I also believe the discussion is the result of an undue shift in the burden of consensus. I'm not sure whether it's appropriate for me, an involved person, to make an individual request to another, but you're uninvolved and you're an administrator. Avilich (talk) 16:37, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry Avilich, I saw this right before I left work & once home it slipped my mind entirely. Also, not certain where this discussion was/is. Has it been closed? -- llywrch (talk) 15:33, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion is Talk:Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan#Requested move 20 August 2021. Not a topic I've ever discussed with you, but the page and consensus regarding its fate have gotten a mess since last month due to recent developments. The context is as follows –

The article in question, Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, used to deal with the Taliban government of 1996–2001. After the Taliban captured Kabul on the 15th of August, the page was moved to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) in order to distinguish the 1996–2001 government from the new one. The move was rejected ostensibly due to 'lack of consensus', and the result is this still-ongoing move discussion. At the same time, people started adding information about current events (also without consensus), and now the article is a mixed blob of events from both 1996–2001 and 2021. The article now has no clear topic, and the talk page has been flooded with discussions regarding possibilities of merging, splitting, and renaming.

I think it was wrong for consensus to be demanded for the page move but not for the mass addition of content that resulted in the radical change of the article's scope. This resulted in multiple discussions whose outcomes can end up conflicting with one another, and for this reason I think this whole thing needs the attention of some administrator or authority figure. Recently, it has been agreed that the article should not cover both 1996–2001 and 2021 simultaneously, and it has also been agreed that the article Afghanistan should cover the current government. But there is still the possibility that the move request will not be fulfilled, which will lead to further confusion and uncertainty about the article's precise function.

To put it plainly, what I want (as do some other editors) is for the article "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" to be renamed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) and for it to go back to covering the 1996–2001 period only – its pre-August stable version. The content added since then should be transferred to other articles such as Afghanistan (as per the RfC) or Taliban (thus preserving most of the edit history on the original page). The splitting discussion has ended favorably already, so all that remains is concluding the move discussion. As a supporter of the move, my own opinion will be biased, but I think that there is a rough consensus to move (42 for vs. 29 against), that the arguments against are not very good, and that there may be some single-purpose accounts/IPs skewing the vote.

So, to wrap everything up, can you please take a look at the move discussion and perhaps consider closing it yourself? Again, I'm not sure if it's appropriate for an involved editor to just show up and ask for assistance, but a request for closure has been ignored for the past few weeks. If the move is done, then this whole mess will be resolved, otherwise more discussions will be necessary to sort out the resulting contradictions. Avilich (talk) 16:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

It appears at first glance that the discussion is ongoing, which is probably why no one has stepped in to close it. There's no real hurry to close these; Wikipedia will never be finished. However, a number of the more recent comments are not introducing new material, so it might be time to close it. I'll peak at it over the next few days, & if the discussion is still going around in circles, I'll act. -- llywrch (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikiproject Military history coordinator election nomination period closing soon

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WikiProject Military history coordinator election voting has commenced

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"Manius Acilius Glabrio (consul 124)" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Welcome to the Months of African Cinema Global Contest!

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The AfroCine Project core team is happy to inform you that the Months of African Cinema Contest is happening again this year in October and November. We invite Wikipedians all over the world to join in improving content related to African cinema on Wikipedia!

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Claim about user name

The user name(tittle name) masela (Aanaa)will be replied by "Shana Dhugo" Fuadmoha (talk) 22:26, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

@Fuadmoha: I don't understand what you are talking about. It appears you renamed the article Masela (Aanaa), after someone else made some odd changes without providing any evidence for them. Until today, when I reverted that article back to an older version, I haven't touched that article in years. I'd direct you to discuss this at Talk: Masela (Aanaa), but I honestly doubt anyone currently monitors that page. -- llywrch (talk) 18:04, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

The Months of African Cinema Contest Continues in November!

Greetings,

It is already past the middle of the contest and we are really excited about the Months of African Contest 2021 achievements so far! We want to extend our sincere gratitude for the time and energy you have invested. If you have not yet participated in the contest, it is not too late to do it. Please list your username as a participant on the contest’s main page.

Please remember to list the articles you have improved or created on the article achievements' section of the contest page so they can be tracked. In order to win prizes, be sure to also list your article in the users by articles. Please note that your articles must be present in both the article achievement section on the main contest page, as well as on the Users By Articles page for you to qualify for a prize.

We would be awarding prizes to different categories of winners:

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Thank you once again for your valued participation! --Jamie Tubers (talk) 18:50, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

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Precious anniversary

Precious

Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

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GAN Backlog Drive – January 2022

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Merchandise giveaway nomination

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Ethiopia zone templates

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Problematic editor

Hi Llywrch! Can you check this guy out? Tojasonharris. He appears to be making mostly POV edits from a Christian fundamentalist point of view and is now making the bizarre claim that "eleison" is a Latin word. Also insulting edit summaries Deleted petty and malicious comment from snarky user [1].--Ermenrich (talk) 13:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Also this: Ermenrich: I think I made myself clear. Do not contact me in any way whatsoever ever again. You're a &%#&%$% and I have better things to do with my life than subject myself to people like you. [2]. This last at talk:Eleison where he also removed my comment.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich:, I've been busy with off-Wiki stuff, so my time here is limited. I've had a glance at that talk page, & that comment, & at the very least he's pushing the envelope. Since he's an intermittent contributor, maybe ignore his response this time around, although keep track of his comments towards you. Otherwise, feel free to mention this at WP:AN/I, although be prepared for any thread there to go sideways. -- llywrch (talk) 16:48, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, he just called me a narcissistic bully, took exception to my replying to my framing my reply to him... as a reply to him, and continued to tell me to stop using talk:Eleison [3]. At what point does this become actionable? He seems to take warning about civility as a personal attack, and he refuses to actually engage with any arguments while posting long walls of text complaining about me.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:18, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

@Ermenrich:, the only page he can't tell you not to post in is his own Talk page. You have as much right to post there as anyone. If he continues to tell you not to post there, take it to WP:AN/I. -- llywrch (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

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It would be nice if this message were properly signed. Otherwise, it simply comes across as intimidating. - llywrch (talk) 15:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Query about protection of a page

I noticed that you had protected the page Aleksei Bychkov, and I'm interested as to why you did so, as there doesn't seem to be any disruption in the edit history. Was this supposed to be applied on another article? Or is this one of the limited exceptions where pre-emptive protection is appropriate?

Could you please {{ping}} me on reply?

Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 12:06, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

@Mako001:, I explained on the Talk page instead; I figured that was anyone would look for a reason. To recap, a Russian soldier by that name allegedly raped a child. The article is about a soccer player who happens to have the same name, & to confuse the two would have unpleasant consequences. I've been waiting until the story about the rapist has fallen far enough down a Google search list that the two wouldn't be accidentally confused. I just looked & that point may have been reached. If you agree, feel free to have it unprotected. -- llywrch (talk) 15:39, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I reckon that if things go wrong at this point, they will go wrong obviously enough that RC patrol will have a hard time missing it, and it will likely be oversighted quite quickly. And it would be a lot less frequent than a flood of disruption, which it would likely have been back closer to the event.Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 15:56, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

June 2022 Good Article Nominations backlog drive

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Spiritualism

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If you say so... -- llywrch (talk) 07:11, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

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Just a quick correction to the prior message about the 2022 MILHIST coordinator election! I (Hog Farm) didn't proofread the message well enough and left out a link to the election page itself in this message. The voting will occur here; sorry about the need for a second message and the inadvertent omission from the prior one. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:41, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikiproject Military history coordinator election voting closing soon

Voting for the upcoming project coordinator election closes soon, at 23:59 on 28 September. A team of up to ten coordinators will be elected for the next coordination year. The project coordinators are the designated points of contact for issues concerning the project, and are responsible for maintaining our internal structure and processes. They do not, however, have any authority over article content or editor conduct, or any other special powers. More information on being a coordinator is available here. Voting is conducted using simple approval voting and questions for the candidates are welcome. The voting itself is occurring here If you have any questions, you can contact any member of the current coord team. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:13, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Twenty Year Society

Dear Llywrch/Archive17,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Twenty Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for twenty years or more. ​

Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 12:34, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Done. -- llywrch (talk) 15:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Three years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:31, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

🌼 ! – SJ +

ArbCom 2022 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2022 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:24, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Happy Birthday!

Wishing Llywrch a very happy birthday on behalf of the Birthday Committee!   Chris Troutman (talk) 17:12, 29 December 2022 (UTC)