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Draft:Bryan Mealer

Could some AfC reviewers please have a look at this draft and the rationale used to reject it. Thank you very much. FloridaArmy (talk) 11:10, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the article was on "Muck City" I would accept it too. But it says little about the author. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:16, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More details on his life would be good to include. Doesn't he meet criteria 3 and 4 of the creative professionals notability criteria? His most famous work was adapted into a film as is noted in the entry. FloridaArmy (talk) 10:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

?FloridaArmy (talk) 04:01, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

safariScribe, Chetsford, Graeme Bartlett, can you all please explain how this author does not meet WP:NAUTHOR? Specifically #3? A simple search for any and all of his four books would show numerous reliable source reviews of them, many of which I have now added to the article. But that shouldn't be necessary. Per WP:AFCPURPOSE, the only criteria that should be investigated is whether an article subject would survive an AfD attempt. If the subject meets NAUTHOR, as this one does, then it would 100% be kept. Furthermore, per long-standing AFD rules and precedent, sources do not need to be in an article for an article subject to be notable, which is why WP:BEFORE is so frequently noted in faulty AFD nominations.

Thus, per the AFC rules, it should have been immediately accepted, also noting that AFCPURPOSE states "Then ACCEPT it now. (You can tag non-deletion-worthy problems.)". Because notability is all that matters here, not the state of the article (even though this article is written fine as it is). So, please, as AFC reviewers and per AFC rules, explain why this wasn't accepted from the very beginning as a blatantly notable author. Silver seren^C 01:36, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think I restored this page. Most of the page was about "Muck City" so if the subject of the draft was Muck City, I would accept it. I am not ruling out a page on the author, but usually if I restore a page, I would leave it to another AFC reviewer to consider. Though occasional I will just accept a rejected draft without a resubmit, as a lot of rejections are unwarranted. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly.

First, WP:BEFORE is a positive restraint, not a negative restraint. It requires an editor conduct a search before taking a specific action (nominating an article for deletion). It does not, and in no sense logically could, compel an editor to conduct a search before not taking an action (i.e. not accepting an article for mainspace).

Second, BEFORE does not apply to AfC submissions because (aside from maybe the more salient fact that it explicitly only deals with deletions, not article moves, as in moving from draftspace to mainspace), as per our reviewing standards (emphasis added): "If what is written in the submission meets the notability guidelines, but the submission lacks references to evidence this, then the underlying issue is inadequate verification and the submission should be declined for that reason." Applying that standard, the references in the article at the time I reviewed it [1] were not sufficient and, per our reviewing standards, I declined it. I have not been granted authority by the community to unilaterally waive our written reviewing standards which give me the very clear and unambiguous command that I am required to decline submissions in cases where references actually evident in a draft article do not verify the WP:N of the topic. To draw a finer line under this point, we decline draft articles that are (emphasis added) "not yet shown to meet notability guidelines," as opposed to "do not meet notability guidelines".

Hope that helps. Chetsford (talk) 04:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Calzone

Yesterday I made my first "difficult" accept, as opposed to the obvious WP:NSPECIES accepts I've done before. Its tone was very promotional, but it cited two sources that I thought were likely to meet WP:NCORP, so I accepted the draft and then cut the purely promotional parts out. I was planning to ask for feedback today, but I woke up to find it deleted under WP:G11. I knew it might go to AfD, and I thought it was only moderately likely to be kept, but I'm pretty surprised that it was speedily deleted. My CSD log says I've tagged 273 pages with G11; most were deleted, but some weren't, so I thought I'd worked out a decent sense of G11's limits. On the other hand, most of those were user or draft pages, so maybe G11 is applied less strictly there.

Like I said, I knew Mr. Calzone might be deleted, so I'm not bothered that it was. I'm just trying to figure out what to learn from this. As I understand it, a good AfC reviewer should occasionally see their accepted articles sent to AfD and deleted, but I don't think the same is true for CSD. Should I err on the side of declining overly-promotional drafts, even if they seem borderline-notable?

(Pinging OnlyNano and Jimfbleak in case they want to comment/respond.) jlwoodwa (talk) 21:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think so much of this comes down to individual judgement. As you say, the original version was very promotional (and remained in the history), and if the original editor had made no other edits, I would have blocked them as a UPE. I thought that it may be notable, but what we got was a classic company "this is what we sell" with a bit of history, and no real facts, like number of employees, management structure or financials. I agree that if notability were the only issue AFD would have been appropriate, but I felt that it met the threshold for G11; another admin might have taken a different view Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Jlwoodwa:, sorry forgot this wasn't your talk page and I needed to ping Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:48, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I essentially have the same feedback as Jimfbleak mentioned. I tagged the page due to the promotion, and notability was less of my priority. If notability was the primary issue, I would have tagged it for AfD, as that's a debatable issue. In this case, the article only had basic information and a menu, which overall gave the appearance of promotion being the main purpose of the article. When I am participating in AfC, I typically ask myself: "what is the point of this article?" In this case, it seemed the point of the article was promotion, as there was no information I could use if I wanted to write a paper on the company. OnlyNano^talk 14:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewers encountering Carmel-by-the-Sea drafts

You should be aware that there is an ANI discussion concerning the creating editor and validity of sourcing. Please double check sources with care. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 23:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ANI link. Primefac (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For those who encounter the drafts from Greghenderson2006, please be specially certain that the references pass muster. I have used {{Noping}} in order not to pester them, since the ANI outcome was a community block with no appeal for at least 12 months. They will obviously be unable to respond.

The ANI outcome prompted my request at the Twinkle talk page, where Primefac drew my attention to a checkbox allowing users not to notify the editor concerned. The AFC script already has such a checkbox. Out of kindness for the blocked editor, a fellow human being, please consider whether notifying them of deletions, reviews, AFC comments, etc does them a service or a disservice, and proceed at your discretion. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 12:16, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, 12 months means all declined drafts are likely to become deleted drafts. Draft:Lewis Josselyn is really quite extensive and has just been declined - if anyone's in the mood for a draft save, you might want to have a look at that one. Again, as Timtrent said, with a close eye to the sources. -- asilvering (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Asilvering see the talk page where extensive discussion took place about both the sourcing and the content. I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment because 99.99999% of the time there's nothing there other than WikiProject tags but for Greghenderson2006's drafts I suggest reviewers do. S0091 (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, yep. Nevermind, then - this should indeed be left to expire. -- asilvering (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not generally look at draft's talk pages unless noted in an AfC comment. Maybe we can build a notification into AFCH about this. More details in the ticket. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:27, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would be really helpful, and it seems to me like your suggestion is a good way to do it. -- asilvering (talk) 20:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and Joe Roe in the discussion below suggested the same. Thanks Novem. If there is a way to flag anything that is not a template that would be better in case whoever placed the original comment did not start a section but either way, something is better than nothing. S0091 (talk) 18:41, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Rafael de Miguel González declined 5 times.

Five different reviewers declined the same article (for different reasons). Is there a limit to how often someone can submit an article? What other actions (besides re-declining again and again) should be taken? Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 06:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LR.127 There is no limit, though submission without improvement tends to be tendentious and creates a time sink. Reviewers are human and sufficient "silly submission" can lead to a possibly undeserved rejection. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@LR.127 This draft was suggested by @DoubleGrazing to have a possibility of passing WP:NACADEMIC back in December. I think they were correct, though, as presented, I feel it woudl have been the wrong side of the borderline. Since then there has been no improvement to referencing.

I have left a comment on the draft just now, hoping for a resubmission with just one better reference. It was most recently submitted by an IP.

I think this one may be acceptable and I'm willing to accept it based on the 50% "rule" and let the community decide. I do not feel like performing a "submit and accept" on it at this stage, though. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(I didn't even remember commenting on this...) FWIW, I reckon the EUROGEO presidency satisfies NACADEMIC #6, and the Academia Europaea membership and the fellowship of the Royal Academy of Fine Arts of San Luis both meet #3. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:44, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have done as I promised on the draft and accepted it, despite not being provided with the extra reference requested. Over to the community. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 07:47, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it has no chance of ever being accepted due to notability or WP:NOT, rejection is the next step. It is like declining, except it takes away the resubmit button. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:23, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is really absurd. The first two declines were for not being written in English. Now that's been fixed, they shouldn't be held against it. After that, multiple reviewers agreed that the subject was notable, but The Herald and LR.127 still declined it for lacking notability. How do you expect the submitter to respond to that feedback – "this is notable, but it doesn't show that it's notable"? It's kafkaesque. Both also complained that the article was "not adequately supported by reliable sources", but it's a one-paragraph bio with six inline citations, what more do you want? Timtrent commented that:

For a living person we have a high standard of referencing. Every substantive fact you assert, especially one that is susceptible to potential challenge, requires a citation with a reference that is about them, and is independent of them, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS, and is significant coverage.

...which is just flat-out wrong. There is no policy that every statement must be referenced, even on BLPs. What WP:BLP actually says is all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Even if there was, all that are required are reliable, published sources. "Independent", "secondary" and "significant coverage" are requirements of the WP:GNG, not the verifiability or BLP policies. The article uses primary sources from, for example, the University of Zaragoza to support the claim that he is a professor at the University of Zaragoza, and the Real Sociedad Geográfica to support the claim that he is on the board of the Real Sociedad Geográfica. Unless we think these institutions are likely to lie about who works for them, this is absolutely fine. More to the point, when did AfC, which is supposed to accept anything that is not blatant deletion material, give itself the job of fact-checking every single claim in a draft?

This draft should have been accepted as soon as it was translated to English. It is an excellent example of why good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state. – Joe (talk) 08:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa – "good faith editors should be steered away from AfC in its current state"!

Well don't hold back, what do you really think about AfC? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find it's a common view. All the event organisers I know tell new editors to use userspace drafts or create in mainspace instead. Women in Red explicitly says it is not recommended that you submit drafts to Wikipedia:Articles for creation. Basically anyone involved in growing the editor base has learned through hard experience to avoid it like the plague. Personally I think it's broken by design and performs some useful functions by being so, but that is no excuse for holding good faith drafts to standards so far above what the community has tasked AfC with doing. – Joe (talk) 08:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak for others, but I do AfC and NPP and apply the same standards in both, so I don't think it's entirely fair to say categorically that AfC's standards are "so far above" others'. And if AfC goes, it will just shift the workload to the already-congested NPP: notability, verifiability, etc. issues will still be assessed, they'll just be assessed there instead.

At the end of the day, AfC is mostly a voluntary process, so if sections of the community want to apply lower standards to their WikiProject's (or whatever) article creation, they're welcome to do so. (I don't know why they would want to do that, but they must have their reasons.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:06, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And is it now in mainspace? Yes, it is. And did I put it there, yes I did. Thank you for your comments. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 09:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, full credit for that, I was glad to see it. I still find it worrying to see an editor of your experience, who reviews so many AfC submissions, giving blatantly incorrect instructions to a new user. It should not have taken eight months, three declines, and a discussion here to accept an article on a subject that was acknowledged to be notable from the beginning and with zero significant content issues. – Joe (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I declined it on the grounds of lack of inline cites and inability to establish notability. In my experience, BLPs should be more rigorously scanned for notability and AfC should act as a deterrent. Articles passed by AfC shouldn't make it to AfD after a few months just because they weren't fact checked. Tomorrow, if this article ends up in AfD for not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG, then what was the point of AfC? That's why, I try to be a little bit more strict with BLPs as they are more prone to deletion if there's no SIGCOV or GNG. Nonetheless, I see Joe's point about AfC being a headache and a factor to steer away AGF editors who are genuinely interested in the project.
Anyways, glad to see the draft in mainspace and hope it doesn't end up in AfD because AfD is not exactly kind to articles with borderline notability.
Another point I'd like to say is, I straight out reject a draft if there are no improvements after multiple declines. But, there is no deadline and we can always improve the articles/drafts. Happy editing yall. — The Herald (Benison) (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

When you declined the draft there were six inline citations – which statements specifically did you identify as lacking citations? There was also a comment from DoubleGrazing saying, I think this is notable per WP:NACADEMIC – did you disagree with this assessment? What in the article needed to be "fact checked", and why would failure to do that lead to an AfD? Why would it end up at AfD for "not sticking to SIGCOV and GNG", when the claim to notability is per WP:NACADEMIC, not the GNG? – Joe (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am with @Joe Roe:; I have been watching SafariScribe's talk page and they reject articles by the hundreds, often in direct contradiction of the guidelines at WP:AFCR. They demanded that I email them scans of books; is that acceptable behavior? I am not sure how to fix AfC but something has to be done because in its current form it seems only to exist to bite newbies and to keep people out. People like me who have been here for a couple of years don't see what's going on over here but it clearly violates the intended spirit of AfC. I'd love to see this brought up somewhere more official because this is making us look like sadistic, low-level bureaucrats. I can't really argue with this quote: Editors reviewing submissions through AfC are just looking for an excuse to decline them. Mr.choppers | ✎ 02:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, that's quite a good guide. -- asilvering (talk) 07:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mr.choppers, it's not accurate to say that editors decline drafts without good reasons or that they find a reason to decline drafts based on the misleading essay you cited above. That essay is totally incorrect. Reviewers often go out of their way to help improve drafts when they have the time.. However the approach you're suggesting for the AFC process might not be very helpful. We consider many factors in AFDs beyond what you might expect. If you continue this way, you might be causing confusion, especially by leaving unnecessary comments on editors' talk pages including mine.

For your comments on my talk page, I was trying to assist a new editor with their draft, and when I noticed the sources were unreliable, I offered to help them remove some. But then I saw Chopper's comment saying there was no need to remove the sources and citing AFC standards in detail. While there's nothing wrong with what you've done, there’s room for improvement. You've even mentioned before that some drafts are incorrectly declined when you could easily move them to mainspace. Please focus your energy in helping rather than blaming reviewers who are doing their best. Cheers! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 03:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@SafariScribe, I don't think this is a good response to Mr.choppers. And I share his concerns that you've been declining articles for strange and sometimes inscrutable reasons. -- asilvering (talk) 07:16, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has been brought up quite frequently recently and I think editors have conflicting opinions. Some believe drafts should only be declined if they aren't notable (i.e. they would fail an AfD), while some believe the standards should be much higher (sources must be in the article, reliable sources, enough inline citations, NPOV, etc.) Per WP:AFCPURPOSE it looks like we should all be doing the former. But then why do we have other decline reasons (v, ilc, npov, etc.)? And should AfC reviewers be doing BEFORE checks if the sources aren't present in the article? I think there needs to be more clarification on this. C F A 💬 21:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should be following WP:AFCPURPOSE. Every time this comes up, the answer is that editors might want to apply more stringent standards, but they should not. The other decline reasons are the quickfail criteria and suitability criteria, which are explained below that. The WP:V decline is specifically for this case: If what is written in the submission meets the notability guidelines, but the submission lacks references to evidence this. -- asilvering (talk) 19:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem here is that AFCPURPOSE seems to directly contradict the quick-fail criteria. Yes, it makes sense to decline an article for WP:V if the claim to notability (e.g. a chart position) is unsourced, but what about when large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced? That is not a notability or deletion-related problem. It is a tag-able one. The same thing applies to NPOV issues. They can just be tagged. If AfC's main purpose is to accept articles likely to survive AfDs, and AfD is not cleanup, then we should really only be declining if the topic isn't verifiably notable (or if it is a significant BLP/copyright violation). C F A 💬 02:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If large sections irrelevant to notability are unsourced, you accept and tag, remove the unsourced bits and accept, or leave a comment asking the submitting editor to improve the draft. Nowhere in the quick-fail criteria does it say that an article with an unsourced section should be declined. -- asilvering (talk) 05:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Vanishing section heading

I declined a draft, and in so doing seem to have somehow deleted a section heading: [2]. Does the script automatically perform some sort of cleanup, and if so, does this include removing headings from empty sections? (That's the only way I can think of explaining this.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 07:30, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably. Would you be okay with the behavior staying the same, or do you think it is a bug? I'm leaning towards staying the same, personally. Deleting empty reference sections seems reasonable. –Novem Linguae (talk) 08:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've no problem with it doing cleanup. I've noticed before that it removes white space etc., which is a good thing. Whether that should include empty section headings, I've no opinion about.

On this occasion, the draft actually had two references, which correctly appeared under the now-deleted heading. It just didn't have the reflist tag, which is why the section looked empty at the wikitext level. With the heading gone, the footnotes are now orphans. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 08:51, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes AFCH has a function to remove any empty sections at the end - form the code "Empty sections at the end of drafts frequently happen because of how the "Resubmit" button on the "declined" template works." I'm sure this is true anymore. In this case it does not matter and as it was miss-spelt with no {{reflist}} good cleanup. The only time I notice this causing issues when when the full text was in a heading. KylieTastic (talk) 08:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed; the old resubmission method had the user putting in a "new section" with a {{void}} along with the {{submit}} template, and despite the fact that we didn't want people to add a subject they still would, so AFCH started removing those blank sections. I am still in favour of having this functionality, if only to clean up the drafts a little bit (the reference issue in this draft would have needed manual fixing anyway so the removal of the section heading is kind of moot). Primefac (talk) 11:56, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Loml and Loml

Will someone please look at this draft and article and advise what to do next? I looked briefly at the draft on 1 July, and saw that there was an existing redirect to the album, The Tortured Poets Department, and tagged the redirect as with possibilities. Then a few days ago an editor expanded the redirect into an article. I have taken another quick look at the draft and the article, and they have mostly the same content but are not quite the same, and appear to have been worked on independently. (It isn't surprising for a Taylor Swift song to be worked on independently by multiple editors.) I am tagging the draft and the article to be compared, combined, and merged. This appears to be not a train wreck but two trains arriving at the same destination from the same origin. Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:36, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've reached the correct conclusion; two pages being worked on more or less independently, so if there's useful information in the draft it should be merged into the article, otherwise redirecting it is sufficient. Primefac (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not on the list

I wondered why I don't appear on the list Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Participants of reviewers, I have reviewed a large number every day for many, many years? Theroadislong (talk) 06:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You used to be, but then we decided to simplify things by making NPPs automatically be AFC reviewers from the point of view of the AFC Helper Script. And that page is primarily an allow list for the AFC Helper Script. Hope that makes sense. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:32, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes thank you, no worries. Theroadislong (talk) 07:37, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mostini

I've just requested speedy on Draft:The Thermodynamic Nexus in The Process of Quantum Gravity Sigma ZG Matrix. Took me a while to realise that it's yet another reincarnation of the long-running Mostini saga; only twigged that when I looked at a couple of the 'sources' cited.

These were at some point created by Josammy777, and IIRC there were others involved also, but they've since switched to IP editing from multiple ranges, which makes things more difficult to track.

This has been attempted at so many different titles that I can't remember most of them, but the key words/phrases to watch out for are 'Mostini' / 'Mostini Planet', 'Sigma ZG', 'Alpha & Omega', 'Thermodynamic Sigma', matrix, nexus, etc., as well as the author's (?) name Josammy (in Josammy Ganga, Josammy Technology, Josammy Emporio Foundation, etc.) usually appearing somewhere in there.

Just wanted to flag up here in case someone wasn't aware / didn't remember. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up. For anyone tagging it as G3 in the near future, might be worth pointing to this thread as well just so certain passing admins aren't throwing fits. Primefac (talk) 12:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any other recurring AfC sagas like this one? I wonder if maybe it's worth making a list somewhere. -- asilvering (talk) 19:34, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. Most of the long-term drama is just LTAs and socks trying to push their favourite actor through the process despite them only having been in one b-list film as an extra. Primefac (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for opinions on Draft:Abhishek Nigam

I think the subject is now notable enough to be included in Wikipedia. Although the article has WP:PROSELINE issues and the lead section has a little bit of MOS:PUFFERY material, I think it would survive AfD (which is the bar set - no higher)... but I'm not sure - looking for more experienced reviewers. Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the draft has been resubmitted (after being rejected... more than two years ago... for the second time), so I guess a reviewer will take yet another look at it at some point. Is there are reason why you're flagging it up here? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:14, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to accept it myself, but figured I should get some input (following the guideline at WP:AFCPURPOSE to "ask for help" here). Cheers. LR.127 (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At a quick glance, it looks like he's had some more roles since the article was rejected last, so it's worth considering. But they don't really look like important roles, to me? I'd double-check the references to make sure they don't look like regurgitated press releases before accepting it for sure. -- asilvering (talk) 19:33, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He has been in 93 episodes of Ali Baba: Ek Andaaz Andekha and 233 episodes of Hero – Gayab Mode On. Seems like a WP:NACTOR pass to me. I've gone ahead and accepted the draft. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Draft:Koshy's

My submission Draft:Koshy's was rejected as not having enough seconday, independent and reliable sources. I thought I had used several articles from well-known newspapers which described the eatery in great detail and the sources were secondary. I have improved the submission and also notified the original reviewer. Hope that reviewer sees my message. Also posting this here for opinion on my draft and if anyone can help. I am sure anyone here who has been to Koshy's would like to help make it even better. The eatery is iconic though I have been there only once. Not paid. No COIs. Thanks Trvllr1 (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that you have made a number of changes and resubmitted, so hopefully you have overcome the issues raised by the previous reviewer. As a minor note, your draft was "declined" not "rejected", as "rejection" implies that it cannot (and/or should not) be resubmitted. Good luck! Primefac (talk) 12:33, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Random article sample sizes

Fun fact: The most common number of sentences in a Wikipedia article is two.

Half of articles have between 5 and 29 sentences. More than 10% of them have just one or two sentences (usually two). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well that depressingly low! KylieTastic (talk) 11:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Given how many complaints I see about "all those mass-created one-sentence substubs", these numbers are actually higher than I expected, but maybe my perspective is being skewed by the discussion about Wikipedia:Notability (species), because species articles skew a bit more heavily on the short side (25% have exactly two sentences). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be useful to have more information along these lines? @BilledMammal has kindly created a sample article set, and we've been looking at what it can tell us about Wikipedia's current content.

For example: the 50% of articles in the middle (i.e., from the 25th percentile to the 75th percentile) have these ranges:

123–782 words
5–29 sentences
2–9 refs
12–46 links

Each of these numbers is being calculated separately, so there's not necessarily a single article that has (e.g.,) 338 words + 13 sentences + 4 refs + 23 wikilinks to other articles; it's that when you look at refs alone, regardless of anything else, half the articles have between two and nine refs (with a median of 4). Also, these are refs that the query can currently detect, so it's likely including a few explanatory footnotes and makes no attempt at identifying whether the sources are reliable, independent, etc. It also misses citations that don't use <ref> tags/other detectable elements. And a slightly different group has 5–29 sentences, and a slightly different set has 2–9 refs, etc. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Robert McClenon/Nassau County Bridge Authority

I accepted a draft for Nassau County Bridge Authority, but had to move the blocking redirect out of the way. My question is whether the redirect needs to be preserved as containing significant history, or can be deleted. Will someone please look at it? My thinking is that it can be deleted, because the significant history was copyvio that has been redacted (revdel'd), so that there no longer is significant history. But I would like a second or third opinion. Should I move it to draft position to point to the article, as is usually done when there is real history, or can it be tagged to go to the great bit bucket in medium earth orbit? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:42, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now with admin tools... I would have just nuke it when processing the draft. 🤣 – robertsky (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any significant history there; there are a lot of edits but they're all just futzing with the redirect itself. I would have used {{db-afc-move}}. Primefac (talk) 12:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tagged and deleted. McClenon mobile (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assigning WikiProjects to Articles

When I accept an arti0cle, the script asks me to assign it to WikiProjects. Sometimes the originator has already assigned WikiProjects to it in draft. Sometimes I know what WikiProjects the new article should be assigned to. But sometimes I am simply not familiar with the WikiProjects in the area. If I am not familiar with the categories in the area, as I usually am not, I tag the article with {{Improve categories}}, and gnomes are requested to assist by assigning the categories. Will the category gnomes also assign WikiProjects? Is there a way to tag a new article to request WikiProject assistance by gnomes? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably. Some (even here) would argue that tagging WikiProjects is unnecessary, and some are insistent that every page needs to be assigned to a WikiProject. If you can't think of who would want to be "assigned" a draft, don't feel obligated. There aren't any temples to request a WikiProject or to add a project template, but there are some people who relentlessly (or in the case of Ser Amantio, using an unregistered bot account) add WikiProjects, so it will likely be picked up by someone. Primefac (talk) 18:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Somewhat related - the AFCH script isn't playing nice with the new format of the wikiproject talk page banners and is generating a lot of ugly errors if multiple wikiprojects are added. If there isn't a ticket open for this on phab already, someone ought to start one. -- asilvering (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does one of these tickets describe the issue? https://github.com/wikimedia-gadgets/afc-helper/labels/draft-talk-page-wikitext –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's this one: [3]. Here's an example of it from one I accepted recently. -- asilvering (talk) 19:20, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's the primary one, but I will say that all of those are inter-connected issues that have cropped up over the years as the banner format and ideology has changed. I suspect a fix for one will likely include fixes for most if not all of them. Primefac (talk) 19:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Posted this as a separate thread... and only then read the above convo. When the submit wizard adds WikiProject tags to the draft talk page, these seem to be newly causing red error messages, see eg. Draft talk:Tony To Chin. The message asks for the banner shell to be added, and the ratings to be applied to the shell. I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that this was changing, so it could be the wizard needs updating to comply with whatever the new practice is? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 10:23, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Module talk:WikiProject banner § Warnings. I personally disagree with this change, and am fighting it. You are welcome to participate (or not) in the discussion, but just note that I am not necessarily advocating anyone do so (and they should probably mention that they were pointed to that discussion by me).

That being said, yes, there is a ticket to update the wizard (along with a half-dozen other WPBS-related updates), see the link by Novem above. Primefac (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We really do need this project either to update the obsolete script or to stop using it. You have been given fair warning and plenty of notice about the changes in the assessment process... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I started an update tonight. It's located here. Comments welcome. I'll leave it open for a few days for code review. Please ping me in a few days to remind me to merge and deploy it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:25, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad this is being worked on. In the meantime, I think it crosses a line for MSGJ to be reverting the AFCH edits that produce these warnings (see Talk:Thomas F. Baumert for instance). Warnings are warnings, someone needs to fix them not revert them and sweep them under the rug. It is fine to feed the gnomes while this gets sorted. If the reviewer doesn't do the cleanup after a revert like this, information they added to the article during the accept is likely lost. ~Kvng (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, removing valid projects and details because they are not in the current preferred formatting is ridiculous and if a new user did this they would be getting warnings for vandalism or disruptive editing. The new warnings do make it ugly as, but removing rather than fixing is disruptive that than constructive. WP:PIQA is about having a single assessment, it does not give any validity to remove other information in those banners. Surprised though that a bot had not come along and fixed up before the revert anyway. KylieTastic (talk) 14:22, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like Qwerfjkl (bot) was approved to do these fixups, but looking in it's logs I can not see it doing it anymore. I only checked a few 1000 edits, I tried an edit summary search for "Task 26" but keep getting 502 bad gateway. Qwerfjkl should this be running, and should it have fixed up the AFCH tools bad formatting before it annoyed MSGJ? KylieTastic (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

┌──────────────────────────────┘
KylieTastic, Cewbot runs on these pages (pinging operator kanashimi). — Qwerfjkl talk 15:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Qwerfjkl, if so that bot appears to be active adjusting those so probably just backlogged. Can you update User:Qwerfjkl (bot) page to show Task 26 as inactive. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — Qwerfjkl talk 17:54, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFCH WikiProject banner patch is deployed

Seconds ago I went ahead and deployed an AFCH patch that fixes 6 outstanding bugs related to the wikitext that AFCH writes to draft talk pages. These bugs all involved how AFCH wrote WikiProject banner code. Details can be found here. This patch will take effect in 10 minutes after the gadget cache clears.

Please keep an eye on your draft talk diffs for a couple days for any problems. This was a complete rewrite of that part of the code, so new bugs may spring up. I would appreciate it if you could report diffs of bugs here. This is also a good time for me to work on these types of bugs while I have this particular code top of mind.

This patch should hopefully resolve the problems MSGJ is encountering. Thanks all. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good work Novem Linguae. I have been having quick looks at the code changes but not done a full review. It appears to be working so far example. KylieTastic (talk) KylieTastic (talk) 13:59, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, there's a blank |class= in that diff. Let's see if this fixes it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:11, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it did - see this KylieTastic (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is looking great. Thanks for your work on this — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're a hero. -- asilvering (talk) 15:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Utopes. I see you adding |1= to some of the talk pages, and moving up the WPAFC banner on some of the talk pages. Are these edits necessary? If I am missing something let me know. I can always code AFCH to do these edits for you, if it is worth the effort. But it's my understanding that |1= isn't needed, and the order of WPAFC isn't too important. –Novem Linguae (talk) 22:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Force of habit a bit, I've always had WPAFC as the first banner on a talk page among all the WikiProject banners (as that's often the most "relevant" towards the lifecycle of the draft-to-article). It felt (and still feels as of now) odd to see a WPAFC banner tucked between two other banners for content/material-related WikiProjs. So I've always ensured it's listed first, as it contains vital info about the status of the page when it was a draft, and useful for audits and etc. If that's not built into the gadget, that'd be a personal recommendation of mine to incorporate.

Per Template:WikiProject banner shell#Parameters, "1=" is the parameter name so if I'm making multiple edits to the banner shell I tend to throw that in there too, adds a bit of clarity towards which param is which. I find it helpful, but it might not be for everyone, which is fair. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the AFCH banner has always (to my knowledge) been placed at the top, I think it's probably helpful if the revised script keeps doing that, since that's where people will look for it. Won't make much of a difference for most articles, but it will for those articles that have half a dozen wikiprojects on them. -- asilvering (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Just now I patched and deployed both putting WPAFC on top, and adding |1=. I also tweaked the edit summary, and {{OKA}} is now added to the banner shell. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Novem Linguae: Fwiw the "1=" bit might not be super important in the grand scheme; I'm willing to align to whatever most banner shells use (with or without the "1="). That aspect is more on the cosmetic / aesthetic side so if nobody else is putting that on there, I won't either.

Thanks for the prompt response though, and for prioritizing WPAFC at the top of the shell! o7 Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of OKA though, I think I had a situation (at Talk:Katowice Załęże railway station, particularly) where there was a WP banner (AFC), followed by a translated-page template, followed by an OKA banner. I left all of the other banners alone due to the new functionality of the gadget, but would the AFCH capture all of that into the shell, or select only from a list of "approved" banners to shell-ify? Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 23:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I spot checked about 8 articles and about half had |1=, and it made the shell more readable when the shell had a lot of parameters, so I decided to include |1=. I also checked around 5 OKA banner articles and about half had it in the shell, so I decided to write AFCH to include it in the shell from now on. The shellify algorithm grabs any template that starts with WikiProject, Football, or OKA, and I may add more to this list as needed. –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If it matters, the OKA template is a wikiproject template, as part of WP:ITW. -- asilvering (talk) 23:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I deployed again just now. Please keep an eye out for bugs. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Detecting CV without Earwig

Earwig's Copyvio Detector had been crippled for several weeks now due to an issue with Google credit. How are you all getting your CV checks done? I've been running Earwig with the Use Search Engine option unchecked but is that good enough? ~Kvng (talk) 22:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's what I've been doing for the last couple weeks while the tool is getting worked on. I've also been manually copying and pasting strings of text into my search engine if I'm suspicious of a copyright violation that the tool hasn't picked up. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 23:14, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AfC stats

Is there a way to see how many articles I've accepted/declined? I'm pretty sure I saw a website with that sort of data, but I've lost it.

Additionally, is there a way to see how the drafts backlog has shifted over time (through a graph)?

(Unrelated, but I think a backlog drive should be organized soon-ish. Just feels right.) LR.127 (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're on WP:AFCP you can click the "reviews" link next to your name. NPR and Admins can also view their stats by going to https://apersonbot.toolforge.org/afchistory/?user=XYZ where XYZ is their username. We have had various backlog stats over the years but currently graphs is out of commission and we do not have anything running currently. Primefac (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for a drive, a couple of months ago I might have suggested one, also, when we were hovering (IIRC) around the 3.5-4K mark. Since then, we've been slowly but consistently coming down, and now are at < 2.5K, which is okay, IMO. (If anything, we could benefit from a quality assurance initiative of some sort, to check how well we're all adhering to the 'rules'.) -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're not getting yelled at (right now anyway) for either declining too many or accepting too much, so that's one QA metric to go by. Primefac (talk) 10:30, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately the weekly stats stopped getting updated (because of the graphs issue) so I can't even do a manual graph to show the history trend. KylieTastic (talk) 11:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At NPP, we got our backlog graph back up and running, by making our own bot and maybe also doing some data scraping using a Toolforge webservice. I also found Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Backlog chart/daily, which looks like a good format to plug into a bot, and which was turned off a few months ago but can be easily turned back on by editing User:MusikBot/CategoryCounter/Run. I'll talk to some tech people and see what I can do. Please ping me in a week if a nudge is needed :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Problem with terminology

At the Teahouse, a colleague recently gave the advice: "Rejected means stop, don't go on. Declined means it might be accepted with revision."

I'd love to know which dictionary makes this distinction. Or does it just exist in the minds of AfC reviewers? If so, please pick better terms, as the confusion between the two phrases quoted is a frequent cause of confusion among new editors commenting at The Teahouse and Help Desk. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've been using this wording since rejection was brought in to use in 2018. Yes, there is sometimes confusion about the terms, but it is easy enough to clarify as you just indicated above. Personally speaking, I find a much greater distinction between rejection and declination, where the former is a hard "you done fucked up" and the latter is more of a polite thing. Of course, this comes as a native English speaker; anecdotally most of the confusion seems to come from ESL speakers (and even more anecdotally, from India).

As a minor point, coming in and insulting us straight off the bat is a really good way for us to get defensive; there are better ways to start a discussion. Primefac (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, to answer your asinine question, Merriam Webster gives:

decline often implies courteous refusal especially of offers or invitations.
reject implies a peremptory refusal by sending away or discarding.

So yes, there is a lexicological difference. Primefac (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome to quote the insult you imagine I made, but meanwhile, I didn't say there was no difference in dictionary definitions; I asked which dictionary made the distinction which I quoted. I note you have no source for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You know as well as I do that such a thing doesn't exist; the words are different, and have been used to mean different things by this WikiProject for six years now. The fact that one user has come up with (in my opinion) a short and simple way of remembering those differences does not mean they are wrong. Primefac (talk) 12:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"used to mean different things by this WikiProject" Indeed. This is exactly the problem which I seek to resolve. You've already acknowledged that "there is sometimes confusion", and that there is cultural bias in the jargon being used. You have advanced no argument (except, perhaps one equating to "we have always done it this way") why the status quo offers more benefits than does fixing the issue. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:52, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's mostly because I wasn't trying; that is not how you phrased your initial post and not what you appeared to be looking for. Primefac (talk) 12:57, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Primefac, I think asinine is too strong a word, although your defensive response is understandable. User:Pigsonthewing, it seems like the confusion is on your end because you don't quite grasp the AFC process and terminologies. Instead of asking for clarification or seeking help to understand the terms, you jumped to conclusions with your question, implying that the phrases in question only exist in the minds of AFC reviewers. Really?

To clarify, "rejection" as it was already explained by Primefac, applies to drafts that are not notable and will not be for the time being, or falls under WP:WWIN to thr sight of God and man, and it's given no option for resubmission except in rare cases of re-review. "Decline" means the draft fails to meet the WP:AFCSTANDARDS. Perhaps, hed suggest that the decline message should exclude Teahouse as where to ai question about the decline to avoid all this confusion, as some editors from there seem to misinterpret AFC wording and try to favor unintentionally non-notable drafts in the name of fighting for new cheated editors. Next time, please ask questions instead of making assumptions or final conclusions. Cheers! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 12:24, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no confusion on my part, and no assumptions. I fully understand the process; having both submitted articles via AfC and reviewed and rejected and published others' submissions. The confusion is experienced - frequently experienced, as I said - by the people to whom I referred; not least the individual to whom the quoted advice was given. But thank you for confirming my point, that the distinction is internal to AfC. That, no doubt, is why it is often misunderstood by people new to it, and why less ambiguous phraseology will benefit all concerned. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:41, 26 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]

If you have an alternate suggestion, I'm all ears (and yes, this is a genuine statement, not sarcasm). Primefac (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Find an alternate phrase instead of "Declined"; one which actually relates to what is being done - maybe "Referred for further work". I'm not precious about the exact phrase, nor clear whether a single-word verb is needed. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This comes up semi-regularly but I've not yet seen a suggestion that gets more approval that the status-quo. "Referred for further work" along with similar suggestion is often criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted which is often not true. Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable with more work. Note that the notice posted on the submitters page does not even mention the word decline. The message on the submission does though but explains the issue - people just don't/won't read what it says. A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined and I think regardless of what wording is used for a declined draft they will still see, and refer to it, as a rejection, which is what happened in this case. KylieTastic (talk) 13:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"This comes up semi-regularly" I'm not surprised. As I say, the confusion occurs frequently.

"criticised for suggesting that with further work it will get accepted" Is there ever a case where an article is "declined" without a prose comment suggesting or implying that further work should be done? If not, the objection seems spurious.

"Declined (or its replacement) has to say that it may or may not be acceptable" Isn't that the job of the prose component? The word "Declined" does not say that.

"A lot of the time submitters ask why a submission was "rejected" when it was declined" This again reiterates my point - to most people, the two words are close synonyms. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's too much wrong with the terminology. Yes, it may be that it's no immediately obvious to a newbie, but then neither is the difference between 'page' and 'article', or that between AfC and AfD, or any number of terms of the trade. Until the meaning is explained to you, and then it's usually clear; it's called learning the ropes. Of the million things one needs to learn about Wikipedia, I don't see this one as a biggie. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 14:00, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]