Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/History and geography

General Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
   1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
   2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
   3. Have at least 4 participants.
2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
   1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
   2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago is: 16:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago is: 16:38, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as History and Geography subjects:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/History

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Physical

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Countries

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/Geography/Cities

Swap Fredericton  5 out for Moncton

Moncton's been NB's largest city since before V5 existed. I think Fredericton would be the most appropriate article to swap out since we only have 42 US state capitals and we can cut a Canadian provincial capital. Canada also looks a bit overrepresented at V5 with 22 cities and a population of 39 million. Vileplume (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume (talk) 02:33, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 13:58, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
3. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 21:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal, support addition - We are under quota in Cities and Fredericton seems important in its own right (as the cultural, educational and administrative center of the province). --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

   New Brunswick has a population of under 900k, and Saint John is much more important than Fredericton, so it and Moncton should be NB’s two representatives at V5. Vileplume (talk) 13:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

   I don't doubt that Saint John is important too. Why can't we have three cities for New Brunswick? -Makkool (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

   Q3 2023 population ~843k. Quebec’s three largest cities are all larger than any of NB’s, yet Sherbrooke is not V5. Vileplume (talk) 15:12, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• Comment to stop automatic archiving. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Add Battle of Guilford Court House

The American Revolutionary War  4 could definitely use more than 3 battles when the Civil War has 16. This battle had major effects on the war, led to the Siege of Yorktown  5 which ended the war, became the first American Revolution battle to have its battlefield preserved by the National Park Service, and it even has a town in New Hampshire named after it!

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:51, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support as a swap with some Civil War battle, 16 is way too many. Oppose otherwise. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

   Which battle would you suggest removing? QuicoleJR (talk) 13:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Support add, can't say which Civil War battle should be cut Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 16 Civil War battles is too many but the Civil War was still fought on a greater order of magnitude than the American Revolutionary War. (The biggest Civil War battles killed more than the entire Revolution). And if we added another American Revolutionary War battle, I'd add Trenton or Brandywine before this one. _pbp 12:51, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Blida  5

Being one of the 58 provincial capitals in Algeria does not make a city vital. Population is not that high and there is not very much historical importance. All it has going for it is having the home stadium for the Algeria national football team, which is not vital. It is also very close to the capital, further decreasing its vitality. Decent number of interwikis, but that is likely for the same reason as the U.S. state capitals. Overall, this city just doesn't have enough going for it to make the list.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

   I would support either of the swaps listed below. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

2. Per nom. Would support a swap with Tlemcen or Bejaia. --Makkool (talk) 12:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. 10 cities for Algeria seems about right ratio-wise and in general, I'm inclined to oppose any city removal unless it's blatantly obvious it shouldn't be included because we are actually under-quota for Cities. However, I would support a swap with either Tlemcen (former capital of Medieval Muslim Algeria, more populous, other important historical events) or Béjaïa (largest city in Kabylia which is a region of Algeria that is large enough, culturally unique enough, and significant enough to the history of Algeria that it should also be at VA5 imo, 6th largest port on the Mediterranean, more populous). Aurangzebra (talk) 17:43, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose per Aurangzebra, although I would support either of the swaps. Vileplume (talk) 22:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• Bilda is the fourth largest city of Algeria, Sidi Bel Abbès  5 seems like a better removal. The Blue Rider 18:28, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  Strangely, that metric at list of cities in Algeria shows the population of Blida as over 100k more than the article on Blida does, despite being only four years older. Blida has the lowest population among the listed cities going by what the infoboxes in the articles say. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

• Swapping has 4 supporting votes, so it is going to go ahead instead of a removal. So we would have to decide which city to replace Blida with. It's a very tough choice, because both alternatives are quite viable, per Aurangzebra. I'll still nominate Tlemcen, as it is the former capital and because it gets more monthly pageviews than Béjaïa. Makkool (talk) 12:17, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

  I'd also prefer Tlemcen, since we recently added Kabylia  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Add Allied-occupied Germany

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A relatively short-lived but deeply contentious occupation that defined the status quo of postwar Europe.

Support

1. As nominator.:Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:49, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Important. Kevinishere15 (talk) 01:08, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Short-lived.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:42, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• West Germany  5 and East Germany  5 are already listed, I think that sufficiently covers it, no? The Blue Rider 21:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  Both of those states were formed after the direct occupation/administration period, which is what this article is focused on Iostn (talk) 16:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

  West and East Germany are concepts that were created during the allied-occupied Germany, not just after it. The Blue Rider 18:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add History of Go

Go (game)  4 is VA4 and has been around for over two millennia, and the History of Games section is way too sports-based. The only other board game history article we have listed currently is History of chess  5, and I think that there is room for a second one.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'm aware that History of gambling does not exist as an article, but it would be the first "history of [game]" topic I'd want to add to the list if it does. I feel like "the most important game for which we have a separate History article on" is not a very good reason to include it, because it probably excludes more important topics which should be added first. I also think sports in general are more popular than games globally, and the greater element of competition in these sports means they have had a more developed history. The average Chinese person probably cares a lot more about, say, the China women's national volleyball team than they care about the game of Go, despite Go being strongly associated with China. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:12, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
2. I feel there's too much of "history of X thing" articles already listed. Go (game)  4 is sufficient. Makkool (talk) 16:31, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• I beliebe mancala is older and played more. The Blue Rider 00:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

  History of mancala does not exist as an article. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:09, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not convinced that "history of [recreational item]" is a particularly important class of articles for us to include on this list. Most articles on entertainment and recreation topics are not long enough to warrant splitting out its History section into a separate article. Our article on Doll  4 for example is mostly about the history of dolls, which is fine – there is no issue with not having History of dolls as a separate article, nor is the lack of inclusion of such an article on the V5 list a sign that we don't regard it as an important topic. feminist🩸 (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Mdina  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Mdina, Malta holds significant historical importance for the country of Malta:

• Its predecessor, the ancient city of Melite, was founded by Phoenicians around 800 BC, it was under Roman rule until 870 AD.
• It was captured and besieged multiple times throughout its hitsory, this demonstrates its long-standing vitality. Notable events include: Capture of Malta (218 BC), Siege of Melite (870), Siege of Medina (1053–1054), Norman invasion of Malta (1091) and Invasion of Gozo (1551).
• It served as Malta's first capital, from The Middle Ages until the 14th century.
• Mdina boasts architecturally important structures, such as Greeks Gate, Domvs Romana, Temple of Proserpina, Temple of Apollo, Vilhena Palace and Mdina Gate (see Mdina#Places of interest for a more comprehensive list).
• The city is closely linked to the historical event of Paul the Apostle's shipwreck in Malta. The island's governor, Saint Publius, received him in Mdina. Paul converted the entire island to Christianity and made Publius the 1st Bishop of Malta, who is now a patron saint of the country. Mdina is home to St Paul's Cathedral, serving as the seat of government for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Malta
• Mdina is a significant tourist destination, welcoming over 1.5 million visitors annually.

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 00:33, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:51, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support under Historical cities, considering we do list some permanently inhabited settlements there. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:56, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. File under historical cities. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think we Valletta is enough for Malta, for country with that low population. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

   This would most certainly be listed under Historical cities. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:07, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

   Historical cities is not meant for cities where people still live. It's meant for places that are archaelogical sites for example. Makkool (talk) 19:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Yes, the current population is only of a few hundreds but historically it had an higher population comparatively to the rest of the country. The Blue Rider 00:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but most would ignore current population for historical settlements. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

  @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: What are your thoughts on whether the article should be added to the list? You have not voted yet. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Bratsk  5 with Novokuznetsk

Bratsk is already covered by Irkutsk  5 and Irkutsk Oblast  5. Novokuznetsk, on the other hand, is a major coal mining and industrial centre and has the 16th highest GMP of all Russian cities. Up until recently, it had a higher population than Kemerovo  5. It feels odd excluding it from a list of 6 cities in the Siberian Federal District, let alone 12. Compared to Bratsk, Novo has slightly more interwikis, double the English and Russian pageviews, and 2.4 times the population. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Bratsk has 53 daily page views, which quite low. Makkool (talk) 12:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap. Interstellarity (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Treaty of Trianon  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Had a profound impact on Central and Eastern Europe. The loss of about two-thirds of Hungary's pre-war landmass and population fueled nationalist sentiments and political instability, while internationally, it solidified the post-WWI order, leading to the creation or enlargement of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Austria and Romania.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 15:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Seems vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Trinity (nuclear test)

Important subtopic of the Manhattan Project. Interstellarity (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Manhattan Project  4 is Level 4, so we could spare a subtopic. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Political history of the world

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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We list the academic field, but not the actual political history. Interstellarity (talk) 01:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 01:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Gizza (talk)01:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Temperance movement and Teetotalism

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Surprised these are not listed. Abstaining from alcohol is an important concept. Interstellarity (talk) 13:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support temperance movement. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 07:14, 31 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 13:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 06:28, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Battle of Muye

Considered one of the most important battles in East Asian history. _pbp 20:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Battle of the Catalaunian Plains

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Another battle strategic to world history that is missing from the list _pbp 03:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 03:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

_pbp 03:35, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Bessarabia

Currently we list Banat, Galicia, Pomerania and Silesia. Bessarabia is another historical region of Europe with relevance in the modern day.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:20, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Decided to land on this side. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:54, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. I would support historical regions like this, but it's really just Moldova  4 with Transnistria  4 traded for Budjak and part of Chernivtsi Oblast  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Brașov

Brașov has a metropolitan area population of around 350k, making it the fifth-largest city in Romania, and in the same boat as the other Romanian cities on the list, excluding Bucharest  4 and Târgu Mureș  5. I would propose a swap with the latter, but I'd weakly oppose the removal since we're 25 under quota in Cities. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap with Târgu Mureș Makkool (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap with Târgu Mureș Interstellarity (talk) 00:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   @Makkool: I understand if I am overestimating Romania's importance, but what is your rationale? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   I think 8 cities for Romania is just about enough. I would actually support a swap with Târgu Mureș, but not a straight-up add. Makkool (talk) 19:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   I just thought we could have another Romanian city since it is the most populous country in the Balkans  4 (a region that may warrant V3). Mures gets its importance from being the largest city in the Hungarian-speaking Székely Land  5, but I'm not sure if having both the region and the city is necessary.

   Demographically speaking, Mureș has a much weaker case. The largest FUAs in Romania are Bucharest  4 (2.221m), Iași  5 (395k), Cluj-Napoca  5 (386k), Timișoara  5 (352k), Brașov (348k), Constanța  5 (346k), Craiova  5 (264k), Ploiești (248k), Galați  5 (244k), and Oradea (201k). Mureș is a long way down, at 156k. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:18, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech Republic have 4 cities each, and their population is about half of Romania's, so that's the reasoning for 8 cities. I've changed my stance now from oppose to swap. Makkool (talk) 15:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

   Hmm, Bulgaria has five cities (Sofia at V4, Plovdiv, Varna, Burgas, and Ruse) and a population of under 7 million. Are the five of them really all important enough for V5? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add First Battle of Panipat  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A very important engagement in Indian history as it marked the beginning of the Mughal Empire  3 and the dissolution of the Delhi Sultanate  4.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Gizza (talk) 01:27, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:30, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:47, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Causes of World War I

Covers several events that may not be vital in themselves but together are quite important, such as the First Moroccan Crisis, the Bosnian Crisis, the Agadir Crisis, and the Anglo-German naval arms race. It is ranked Top Importance by WikiProject European History, same as Causes of World War II  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
2. We list Causes of World War II, may support Causes of the Great Depression. Interstellarity (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
4. It's needed. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. How many war causation articles are at VA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:17, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Some post-Soviet regions

Add Central Federal District

It has by far the highest population (40m+) and GDP (~566b) of Russia's federal districts. Should most certainly be at V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Strong support as nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Interstellarity (talk) 11:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Moscow Oblast

Major component of the Moscow metropolitan area with a population of ~8.5m and a GDP of $72 billion. Most certainly more vital than the vast majority of the republics. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Sure. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:10, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Krasnodar Krai

The Kuban is a culturally distinct region of Russia with a population of ~5.8m. and a GDP of $35 billion. Most certainly more vital than the vast majority of the republics. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Donbas  5

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A historically relevant region of Ukraine that only became more relevant during the Russo-Ukrainian War  5. 3 of the 24 Ukrainian cities we list are located in the region and so was one-seventh of the pre-war population. I'd probably support this at V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 01:47, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:02, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add all 7 geographical regions of Türkiye

Türkiye and Iran have comparable populations, but Iran gets over twice as many cities as Türkiye. Iran also has all but two of its provinces and Türkiye has NOTHING under country subdivisions? The geographical regions of Turkey are definitely all vital at this level. The articles in question are:

We should have a bit more from Türkiye, but this is just a start. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Aegean Region

Population ~ 10.5m. Largest city is İzmir  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Black Sea Region

Population ~ 7.7m. Largest city is Samsun  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Central Anatolia Region

Population ~ 12.9m. Largest city is Ankara  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Eastern Anatolia Region

Population ~ 6.5m. Largest city is Van, Turkey  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Marmara Region

Population ~ 26.7m. Largest city is Istanbul  3. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Mediterranean Region, Turkey

Population ~ 10.6m. Largest city is Antalya  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Southeastern Anatolia Region

Population ~ 8.6m. Largest city is Urfa  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:05, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:07, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

General discussion

1. Not sure I am comfortable adding these as a group.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

   I will reformat my proposal. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:36, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Add Cappadocia  5 (not OP)

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We should list some of the historical regions as well. Cappadocia definitely, as its still relevant today and a popular tourist destination. Place under Central Anatolia Region.

Support

1. As nom.Makkool (talk) 12:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
4. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add East Thrace (not OP)

The part of Turkey that's in Europe. Place under Marmara Region.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Has a higher population than Belgium. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Euskadi Ta Askatasuna

Major separitist group that was active during many decades in the Basque Country, an armed conflict so big that it had France, Spain and the European Union on their back (see Basque conflict). In its begginings, it was created to oppose the dictatorship of Franco, but soon their started kidnapping, exploding and shoot many civilians and police men, the deathpool reached 829. Several attacks are notable, such as 1980 Markina attack, 1980 Ispaster attack, July 1979 Madrid bombings, Assassination of Juan María de Araluce Villar, among many others. The Blue Rider 18:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:52, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Prefer this at V5 over Bilbao at V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 19:38, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
3. I'm surprised this wasn't already included. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:01, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Agree this is a surprising omission. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:10, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Genetic history of Africa and Genetic history of Europe

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Too specific and the WikiProjects don't care very much. The parent topic, Archaeogenetics  5, is only VA5.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Almost arbitrary intersections, so relevant only to the parent articles, not on their own. CMD (talk) 14:42, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add Languedoc and Midi-Pyrénées

All of the pre-2016 regions of France should have representation imo. These were the two regions that were merged into Occitania  5 in 2016. Languedoc in particular was kept at V4 for an extended amount of time during the cull. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add 180th meridian

Similar in importance to international date line and prime meridian. Interstellarity (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add States and union territories of India

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We list other countries, this is the most notable country not listed. Interstellarity (talk) 00:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Lists should not have a place in WP:VA. The Blue Rider 13:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

   A lot of the article is on the history of India's administrative divisions, so it should not be compared to something like List of sovereign states. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:14, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

   I didn't compare this list with any other; the vast majority of the article is listing the states and union territories, so it is a list and is marked as so. The Blue Rider 14:17, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

   Also, this article failed a GA review precisely because it is a list and lists can't be GA. The Blue Rider 14:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Whether this article should be listed at VA5 is in my opinion contingent not on if India's states and union territories are individually important enough, but on if the very delineation of India into states is itself a sufficiently important encyclopaedic topic. In my opinion, this does not quite reach that bar (and neither does U.S. state, or any other such division). J947 ‡ ^edits 22:49, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Cambridge  5

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It's University is listed at level 4. Cambridge's history goes back over 800 years, we list English places such as Milton Keynes which was founded in the 1960's. The whole county of Cambridgeshire was named after it. We list English towns like Dover which have less than a quarter the population of the city of Cambridge. Internationally people seem more interested in Cambridge which appears in 124 languages, compared with Milton Keynes which appears in less than half at 61; Dover, Northampton, Derby, Luton, Norwich which are all listed also appear in under 100 languages compared to Cambridge's 124.

Support

1. Support as nom.  Carlwev  11:01, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, much more vital than Cambridge, Massachusetts  5 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:55, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 15:02, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Add Roman Britain

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This was suggested at level 4 over 10 years ago, had some support, but more opposition and was not added. (see here) Main argument was why Roman Britain and not all the other Roman provinces. However I think the topic is definately important enough for level 5. . I'm not opposing them but we are listing, or will be soon, British Hong Kong, and New Amsterdam, which concern the history of an individual city for a number of centuries or less. In the case of New Amsterdam, concerns a population of around 2500 people for 50 years. Istanbul is level 3, Constantinople level 4 and Byzantium level 5, although that covers many centuries. Also Many of the early English monarchs we list, cover mainly what they did in the decades or years they were in power over the land. Roman Britain covers the whole of England and Wales for 350 years. If one were to study as a general reader or a specialist, anything to do with British history, Roman Britain would be a topic in and of itself before every individual monarch standing alone. There are many books on this very subject, and it appears as a topic/section in more general history books of Britain as well. It was covered in detail when I attended school and College. (I live in England, but still). It looks like we may soon add Londinium, essentially London under the Romans, I would imagine the whole island of Britain under the Romans is more vital than the single city of London under the Romans.

Support

1. Support as nom.  Carlwev  11:26, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. as nominator of Londinium Makkool (talk) 16:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Important phase of history for Great Britain  4 and by extension the United Kingdom  3. Would have supported sooner but thought this would pass quickly even without me and got lazy.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:10, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove History of Kinshasa

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Not every VA4 city has its history listed, and they don't all need to. This city is big, but there are plenty of bigger cities that don't have their histories listed. This city has only existed since 1881, and it does not have a lot of historical importance.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:22, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 08:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
4. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Remove History of online games

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Don't see a need to keep this article based on the other recent video game removals. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:18, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 08:37, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. λ NegativeMP1 03:16, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add History of Mesopotamia

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Reasonable addition alongside Mesopotamia. Interstellarity (talk) 00:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 00:22, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
2. A little off-topic, but does Iraq make the cut for V3? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:29, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Only reason History of Iraq  4 is VA4. QuicoleJR (talk) 20:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 11:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Belgian Congo  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Seems like a BFD in the history of Africa. _pbp 14:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 14:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Very important part of the history of a country with a population in excess of 100 million. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 14:31, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Some overlap with Atrocities in the Congo Free State  5 but still important. The Blue Rider 16:00, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Obviously, given its predecessor Congo Free State  4 is listed. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:58, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Dallas–Fort Worth metroplex  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It's the only metropolitan area from the US we list. Interstellarity (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

   Joining to support. Better to have none US metropolitan areas than just this one. Makkool (talk) 16:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

   We have Silicon Valley at V4 and the Bay Area and Inland Empire at V5. It also makes sense to list at least one subregion of the second-most populous US state, and this is by far the most vital. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 03:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Certainly not your typical metro area of 8.1 million. One of Texas' regions should be listed if Cali gets 5, and the Metroplex makes the most sense. I'd also weakly add the New York metropolitan area. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:38, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Large multipolar metro areas comprising multiple major urban centers should be listed. New York should not. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume, didn't realize those two were metropolitan areas. Inland Empire is the 12th and SF Bay Area the 13th largest metropolitan area in the US. This should stay, so that California isn't the only state with regions, but we definitely should list some other ones for other states. Makkool (talk) 14:56, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Cheyenne, Wyoming  5

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Cheyenne doesn't seem to have must going for it other than it's a city in the least populated state. It can probably go. Interstellarity (talk) 23:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

# Wyoming  5 is enough to cover an insignificant administrative division. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:58, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Every state should get at least one. A place that is both the capital and largest city should be an auto-add _pbp 03:19, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
2. per above Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Switching my vote to oppose. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove Burlington, Vermont  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This one can probably go since there really isn't much of this city other than being the biggest in the state. Listing Vermont is enough for this level. Interstellarity (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ ^edits 23:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

   We should also remove the other representative of the Lake Champlain  5 valley, Lake Placid, New York  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

3. I'd rather have the state capital, if we'd list at least one city Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

   I'd rather remove Burlington than readd Montpelier, and reconsidering, every state should get at least one. Montpelier is Barre, Vermont's twin city, and neither city exceeds 10k population. We also removed eight other state capitals, and this would be the last of the nine to readd. Burlington is Vermont's primate city, holding over half of the state's urban population. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:48, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Every state should get at least one _pbp 03:17, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

   Considering that we removed Wilmington in Delaware, this removal seems to make sense. Interstellarity (talk) 11:55, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

   I disagreed with what you did to Delaware just as I disagree with what you did to Vermont. Either Wilmington or Dover should have been retained, and Burlington should be retained as well. _pbp 12:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

   I'd readd Wilmington, due to Delaware and New Castle county having a significantly higher population than Vermont/Burlington and Wyoming/Cheyenne. It is also very close to the capital of New Sweden. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

2. I really detest the ebbs and flows of VA preferences. I think a lot of large cities and capitals have been removed just to make room for other stuff. I think each state should have one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:01, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Switching my vote to oppose. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 15:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

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Add Sarasota, Florida

This Southwest Floridian city is a historically and especially demographically important city in Florida. The metro area in particular is projected to hit 1 million by the end of the decade. Unlike Greenville, however, its urban area population is actually significant. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. When I look at the cities that we've removed or almost removed, I don't think Sarasota has a chance. Compare that we removed Palm Springs. _pbp 03:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

   Resort towns are not necessarily vital, especially when they are part of agglomerations that are already listed. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:00, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

2. per above Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Remove Paphos  5

Under 100,000 people and not a national capital. 4 cities for Cyprus is too many considering it has just over a million people 20:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 20:13, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:09, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 14:53, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. UNESCO World Heritage Site, European Capital of Culture, and some pretty decent historical importance. It even has a little Biblical importance! I would much rather choose Larnaca  5 as a removal for Cyprus, since it has much less going for it, only having a somewhat higher population and the international airport in comparison. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:03, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove cantons of Switzerland, batch 1

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Based on stuff we've already removed, does Switzerland really need all 26 of its cantons listed? I think we can ultimately cut it down to four cantons, probably along the lines of Zurich, Ticino, Aargau, and Geneva. Here are all cantons of Switzerland of under 100k population:

1. Appenzell Ausserrhoden
2. Appenzell Innerrhoden
3. Canton of Glarus
4. Canton of Jura
5. Nidwalden
6. Obwalden
7. Canton of Schaffhausen
8. Canton of Uri

Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Support all

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:12, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
3. None of them seem to have much historical importance and they all have low populations. However, it might be a good idea to add Appenzell to the list as a historical region, since it had more importance while unified. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

Oppose all

Neutral

Discussion

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Remove History of Arkansas and History of Mississippi

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Redundant to the History of the Southern United States  5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:56, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 00:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

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Recent additions without discussion

I have recently reverted several edits adding entries without discussion by a certain user, mainly to history, which possibly got a lot closer to hitting/exceeding the quota solely based on their additions. I realized I had already reverted these at least twice before, which went seemingly unnoticed and I just had to leave a talk page telling them to stop. Aside from that, I'm not sure how other entries they added should be dealt with, especially as it seems one of them was 8888 Uprising  5 which had an active proposal for when it was added and it was closed seemingly without being noticed. Iostn (talk) 19:11, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

We should probably undo all of their changes that haven't been passed. It seems like we can keep the 8888 Uprising  5 since it passed regardless but everything else should be rolled back. I am going to assume that maybe they were operating in good faith and didn't realize changes required a discussion so hopefully there will be no more after your warning. I can roll some of them back later today. Aurangzebra (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Countries with too many or too few cities?

Based on number of VA5 cities per total URBAN population:

Underrepresented

Fewer than one city per 4 million

• China (5,767,810)
• Lebanon (5,321,908)
• Brazil (4,995,205)
• Guinea (4,474,929)
• Dominican Republic (4,318,085)
• Guatemala (4,236,821)
• Peru (4,125,303)
• Kuwait (4,052,584)

At least than one city per 4 million BUT
Fewer than one city per 3.25 million

• Venezuela (3,977,591)
• Ghana (3,955,994)
• Thailand (3,818,099)
• Ecuador (3,484,558)
• Uganda (3,291,379)
• Indonesia (3,281,747)
• Kenya (3,271,156)

No cities at all

City-states:

• Singapore (5,622,455)
• San Marino (32,273),
• Vatican City

Territories/possessions/state-like entities over 30,000

• Guam (154,425)
• U.S. Virgin Islands (100,402)
• Mayotte (98,596)
• Northern Mariana Islands (50,401)
• American Samoa (48,482)
• Aruba (45,493)
• Sint Maarten (39,537)
• Gibraltar (34,408)
• Turks & Caicos Islands (32,492)

_pbp 13:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

• @Purplebackpack89: = to compare, what is the number for USA? starship.paint (RUN) 15:26, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  1,922,977 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:10, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  @OhnoitsvileplumeXD @Starship.paint about that, yes. The average is something like 2.1M-2.2M so the U.S. is about average _pbp 21:34, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  But significantly below average among highly-populated countries. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

  Among countries with at least 100 million TOTAL (some of with have way less than 100 million urban), Japan and the Philippines have more entries per million urban population than the US does, Russia has about the same, while the other nine have fewer entries per million urban than the US does _pbp 01:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Overrepresented

One city and an urban population of < 1 million (dependencies in italics)

1. Abkhazia (122,089)
2. Andorra (68,085)
3. Antigua & Barbuda (24,837)
4. Bahamas (324,723)
5. Barbados (88,634)
6. Bermuda (61,666)
7. Bhutan (326,286)
8. Brunei (328,400)
9. Cape Verde (354,491)
10. Cayman Islands (60,765)
11. Comoros (230,724)
12. Curaçao (142,000)
13. Djibouti (733,135)
14. Dominica (51,848)
15. East Timor (388,213)
16. Equatorial Guinea (880,694)
17. Faroe Islands (20,875)
18. Fiji (505,103)
19. French Guiana (241,249)
20. French Polynesia (173,169)
21. Greenland (48,966)
22. Grenada (38,956)
23. Guinea-Bissau (788,013)
24. Guyana (205,699)
25. Iceland (311,861)
26. Kiribati (61,888)
27. Lesotho (621,478)
28. Liechtenstein (5,386)
29. Luxembourg (523,930)
30. Macau (612,167)
31. Maldives (170,247)
32. Malta (406,176)
33. Marshall Islands (40,861)
34. Martinique (360,842)
35. Mauritius (514,950)
36. Micronesia (23,821)
37. Monaco (38,499)
38. Montenegro (419,915)
39. Nauru (11,347)
40. New Caledonia (192,783)
41. Palau (17,181)
42. Réunion (347,970)
43. Saint Kitts & Nevis (16,885)
44. Saint Lucia (33,289)
45. Saint Vincent & the Grenadines (57,234)
46. Samoa (35,513)
47. Sao Tome & Principe (145,534)
48. Seychelles (53,427)
49. Solomon Islands (142,062)
50. Suriname (369,081)
51. Tonga (24,745)
52. Trinidad & Tobago (726,160)
53. Tuvalu (6,925)
54. Vanuatu (68,412)
55. Western Sahara (467,101)

Multiple cities and fewer than 400,000 per city

• Belize (83,849 per city, 2 cities)
• Cyprus (195,411 per city, 4 cities)
• Guadeloupe (224,988 per city, 2 cities)
• Papua New Guinea (355,740 per city, 3 cities)
• Sri Lanka (384,772 per city, 10 cities)
• Eswatini (159,829 per city, 2 cities)

Multiple cities and between 400,000 and 1,000,000 per city

• Afghanistan (883,729 per city, 10 cities)
• Albania (882,294 per city, 2 cities)
• Armenia (922,779 per city, 2 cities)
• Austria (846,529 per city, 6 cities)
• Botswana (520,560 per city, 3 cities)
• Burundi (684,068 per city, 2 cities)
• Cambodia (526,914 per city, 7 cities)
• Croatia (599,337 per city, 4 cities)
• Estonia (452,136 per city, 2 cities)
• Finland (939,935 per city, 5 cities)
• Gambia (624,801 per city, 2 cities)
• Ireland (995,627 per city, 3 cities)
• Israel (688,114 per city, 11 cities)
• Italy (909,536 per city, 46 cities)
• Jamaica (534,972 per city, 3 cities)
• Kazakhstan (794,228 per city, 13 cities)
• Laos (591,356 per city, 4 cities)
• Latvia (447,310 per city, 3 cities)
• Libya (720,128 per city, 7 cities)
• Lithuania (656,295 per city, 3 cities)
• Moldova (864,697 per city, 2 cities)
• Namibia (619,928 per city, 2 cities)
• Nepal (951,601 per city, 6 cities)
• Norway (719,893 per city, 6 cities)
• Palestine (916,222 per city, 4 cities)
• Turkmenistan (973,958 per city, 3 cities)

Add Jiaxing

One of four Tier 2 Chinese cities to not be V5. Located in Zhejiang  4. 45 interwikis. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
2. And support the other three Tier 2 cities as well. China is underrepresented relative to its population _pbp 23:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   @Purplebackpack89: May I copy your support for the other three, which I have proposed below? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

   Certainly _pbp 01:07, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Jinhua

Per my nomination above. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:33, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:33, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Adding User:Purplebackpack89 per his vote at Jiangxi at 23:50 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Taizhou, Zhejiang

Per my nominations above. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Adding User:Purplebackpack89 per his vote at Jiangxi at 23:50 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:43, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Jiujiang

Per my nominations above. Note that Jiangxi  5 only has Nanchang  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Adding User:Purplebackpack89 per his vote at Jiangxi at 23:50 Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Tripolitania and Cyrenaica

If we have as many Libyan cities as we do, then we can most certainly make room for these. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 00:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 16:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Add Weimar

Surprising omission under Cities. Definitely the most important city in Thuringia. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:34, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

Remove United States Minor Outlying Islands

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300ish total people. Also, Wake Island is VA5, Midway Atoll is VA5, and Howland Island is VA5

Support

1. _pbp 03:15, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Would support removing those three islands too. Makkool (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Makkool, remove the three islands. Interstellarity (talk) 01:07, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Midway was kept in a previous discussion, so I'll have to oppose its removal. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

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Remove ALL 52 pages under the "Geography by country" section.

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This is a bold proposal, but one that I think makes sense. We already have 1,316 articles for countries. I think that these 52 pages under physical geography are fairly redundant as far as vital articles go. I also think that the 52 represented are fairly arbitrary, and it would be to easy to argue for the inclusion of many others in this category if these are left as is. By getting rid of all 52 articles, we could free up ALOT of room. There are several thematic map types for example completely excluded, which this could make room for. Even if we don't get rid of all 52, we could get rid of most of them.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 06:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Partial support, remove Geography of Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kenya, Tanzania, Chile, Colombia, Bangladesh, Myanmar, South Korea, Taiwan, Wales, New Zealand - We could certainly trim some of them, but I think we wouldn't need to be so drastic and remove all. We list "History of country" articles as well after all. Makkool (talk) 11:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

   @Makkool: Out of curiosity, how did you decide which countries to keep and which to remove? QuicoleJR (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

   It's the countries that have a "History of..." article on Level 4 that I want to keep. Makkool (talk) 05:15, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

   Agree with QuicoleJR here. Why keep 6 African countries but 15 European ones? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:48, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

2. Much less important to include than the history IMO. The history articles are useful as overviews, while most countries can have their geography covered by just listing the major features. This also leaves more room for those important features. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:46, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Support as nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 14:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Support all, though not opposed to 3–10 exceptions. By and large, the geography by continent articles are sufficient IMO. J947 ‡ ^edits 21:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
5. support all per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion

• @Makkool: I just worry that leaving some "Geography by country" articles over others would open the door for arguments about what countries are important enough to be included, which is obviously a subjective can of worms. "History of Country" articles could likely be dramatically trimmed as well. If we have the country page, these sub pages are less important in my opinion. Clearing them could open up room for a lot of other articles.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 01:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

  Personally, I think we should keep all of the History of Country articles. They are useful overviews and cover a lot of things that are important but not quite important enough to be vital. The same is not really true of the geography articles. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  @GeogSage: Just so you know, the Vital Articles project typically expects nominators to support their own proposal unless they do not support the nomination. Letting you know so that you can do so here. QuicoleJR (talk) 02:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reminded @QuicoleJR:. I get this mixed up with the nominations for articles for improvement it seems.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 14:26, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

• A bit of off-topic, but what would you think of cutting down on "Law of country" and "Economy of country" articles in the same way? Or should we let them be without drastic removals like the "History of" articles? Makkool (talk) 14:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

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Add West Indies and East Indies

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Historically used geographical terms. Relevant in the age of discovery, to be added to the History section.

Support

1. as nom. Makkool (talk) 18:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

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Add East Coast–West Coast hip hop rivalry

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One of the major pop culture events in the 1990s, and probably the only music feud that led to people's deaths. It's rated high-importance on all of the WikiProjects it's a part of, and we already got the main participates on here (Tupac Shakur  4, The Notorious B.I.G.  5, Suge Knight  5, and Sean Combs  5).

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:54, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
2. λ NegativeMP1 20:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Too niche to be vital and this reflects on the interwikis. The Blue Rider 20:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per above Makkool (talk) 21:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Do we even have West Coast and East Coast rap themselves? _pbp 01:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
4. If anything, 2Pac needs representation in musical works as the only V4 rapper. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

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Add French Resistance  5

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Important topic for French and WW2 history.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:27, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 16:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 14:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 05:10, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of the Cook Islands and History of Niue

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We previously removed the "history of" articles of US and Australian states and Canadian provinces below 2 million in population. We could similarly cut the ones for these two countries in free association with New Zealand.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:36, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
2. As nom of Canadian and Australian removals. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 23:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Weakly. I support listing the "history of X" article for every current country, but these two don't really count IMO. They also don't seem to have much historical importance outside of that to warrant listing these articles. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Jacobitism

Major political movement in Great Britain. Cause many a headache for the British government due to foreign support and Irish nationalist undertones.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 06:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Another batch of history removals

Remove Timeline of geology, Timeline of history of environmentalism and Timeline of motor vehicle brands

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More or less duplicates of other, more comprehensive VAs: History of geology  4, Environmental history  5 and History of the automobile  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of hang gliding

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Not a major sport. Hang gliding  5 is only VA5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:15, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 17:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of Dubai

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A minor settlement before the discovery of oil in the 1960s. Even today, with 3.5 million people, it is among the least populous cities with a separate history article.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. I would support a swap with History of Mecca if it were a separate article. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
3. _pbp 17:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
5. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove Early history of Tonga

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“The early history of Tonga covers the islands' settlement and the early Lapita culture through to the rise of the Tuʻi Tonga Empire.” Redundant to Lapita culture  5 and Tuʻi Tonga Empire  5. Not to mention the History of Tonga  5 itself.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 17:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of Australia (1788–1850)

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Even when they encompass customary periodizations, I’m not very convinced about having “History of country by time period” articles. We list several events in Australian history for his period: Australian frontier wars  5, Black War  5, Bushranger  5, European land exploration of Australia  5, the beginnings of the Eureka Rebellion  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 17:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of crime fiction

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Crime fiction  5 is only VA5 with 2 interwikis. There are broader areas of literature that would merit coverage first.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of the Kuomintang

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The only “History of political party” we have. Kuomintang  5 is already listed, as well as History of the Republic of China, History of Taiwan, and Republic of China.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 17:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. Considering we don't list History of the Chinese Communist Party. Interstellarity (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of Easter Island, History of Norfolk Island and History of the Pitcairn Islands

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Three incredibly lightly-populated places. IDK why they deserve a "History of" as vital _pbp 18:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 18:19, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 23:03, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

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Remove Howland Island

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Sparsely populated rock _pbp 19:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 19:03, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
3. No vitality beyond being an uninhabited US territory. Interstellarity (talk) 23:02, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It has some decent historical importance and some strange importance to time, of all things. I think it is just vital enough to include. QuicoleJR (talk) 16:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose per QuicoleJR. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:59, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

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Add Manitoulin Island

Physical Geography is under quota. This island in Lake Huron  4 is the largest lake island in the world, with a sizable amount of importance to the natives and a little importance to Canadian history. 38 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 23:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Strange omission. Thanks for spotting it. J947 ‡ ^edits 01:07, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Support as a Michigander. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Third batch of history removals

Remove History of Svalbard  5

Features some interesting stories about Arctic exploration, but home to only 2,500 people.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove American automobile industry in the 1950s  5

Another interesting article, archetypal of postwar industry in many ways, but too narrow in my opinion.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove History of Franconia

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Since we don’t list Franconia. Has some coverage from History of Bavaria  5. Just 3 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Support swap with Franconia  5, which definitely should be listed. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with Franconia _pbp 16:42, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
4. support swap. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
5. support swap with Franconia Makkool (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove History of Guernsey and History of Jersey

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These already have some coverage from the History of the British Isles  5 article. Minor regions of the U.K.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Remove 2011–2015 Myanmar political reforms  5

These reforms were rolled back devastatingly after the 2021 Myanmar coup d'état  5. I would put these reforms on the same level as the failed Sudanese transition to democracy (2019–2021), which we voted to remove recently. Low pageviews and interwikis suggest this period is not yet well-defined.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Iran–United States relations  5

This provides a convenient summary of conflicts between nations but isn’t technically a “History” article. It is the only “country relations” entry we list.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove History of monorail  5

Minor article in the History of rail transport  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Danish colonization of the Americas  5

I think this falls under interesting but not vital. Keep in mind we have Danish overseas colonies  5 and Danish Realm  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Death of Azaria Chamberlain

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Since we voted to remove Killing of JonBenét Ramsey, I was wondering what you think of this one.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 03:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 20:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

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Add Tajikistani Civil War  5

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With a death toll ranging from 20,000-150,000, this was arguably the deadliest post-Soviet conflict until the Russian invasion of Ukraine  5. Central Asia remains an underrepresented region, and the consequences of this war are still felt today, as its chaos led to the rise of current leader Emomali Rahmon  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems pretty important. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Tajikistan. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Pax Britannica

Period of relative peace between the Great Powers. Important concept for International relations (1814–1919)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Indo-Pakistani wars

Though I would support listing the four major wars fought between 1947 and 1999 (we only have the Indo-Pakistani war of 1971  5), this is a convenient grouping for one of the longest-lasting conflicts of the modern era.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jewish exodus from the Muslim world

Important concept relating to the Arab–Israeli conflict  4.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add German atrocities committed against Soviet prisoners of war

Not the snappiest title, but these were responsible for around 3 million deaths. From the article: “The deaths among Soviet prisoners of war were numerically exceeded only by the (civilian) Jews and has been called "one of the greatest crimes in military history".

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:30, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Historical region additions

Since we have cut back the number of regions quite a deal, we could add a few more historical regions.

Add Appenzell

As suggested by QuicoleJR above.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Was an independent country for some time, and was a Swiss canton for some time after that. It fought several wars and had an impact on the history of Switzerland for the two centuries it existed for. It ended up being split into two Swiss cantons. Rated High-Importance by WikiProject Switzerland. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Karelia  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Historical region in areas of modern day Finland and Russia. We only list the Russian side, Republic of Karelia  5.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Total population adds up to almost a million. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
3. 70 interwikis, rated Top-Importance by WikiProject Russia, WikiProject Finland, and WikiProject Geography. Those are the best stats I have seen for an addition proposal in a while! It also appears to be a vital area according to the article's lead. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. _pbp 14:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
5. Surprised we didn't have this already, good find. Aurangzebra (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Would Ingria also be a reasonable addition? Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

1. Yeah, I didn't think of that. Added a proposal below, thanks! Makkool (talk) 21:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Livonia  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Historical region in areas of modern day Estonia and Latvia.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Seems to have a lot of historical importance. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Courland

Another historical region of Latvia. We could add more of them, but suggesting these two for now.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:31, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Latvia has a population of under two million, so two regions should be enough. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ingria

Another historical region from European part of Russia

Support

1. As nom. Makkool Makkool (talk) 21:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Central Hungary

We list now Transdanubia  5, Northern Hungary  5 and Great Hungarian Plain  5. If we would list Central Hungary as well, that would complete all four main regions of Hungary.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:36, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Tyrol

We list the Austrian side Tyrol (federal state) and the Italian side South Tyrol  5, but not the whole historical region itself.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 10:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Metropolitan area additions

Add Randstad

Houses half of Netherlands's population.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. These concepts might encompass a lot of population but they are not vital per see. The Blue Rider 12:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Gush Dan

The largest metropolitan area of Israel, consisting of Tel Aviv and surrounding communities

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Greater Tokyo Area

The largest metropolitan area in the world by population

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
2. λ NegativeMP1 20:17, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add New York metropolitan area

The largest metropolitan area in the world by urban landmass, and the largest metro area of the US. I tried proposing this before, but I'm trying again as @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: expressed support for it above in another discussion.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 12:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Well known metro area. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:07, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove History of Poles in the United States

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Not really a very large or important ethnic minority in the United States, currently making up only 10 million of the country's population of over 330 million. They don't seem to have much cultural importance, with the article saying they are well assimilated and aren't still attached to much of their culture, and less than 5 percent speak the Polish language. I also don't see much historical importance. Additionally, the article has only one interwiki. Overall, we don't have much room left in history, we need to make room for more important topics, and this article does not seem worthy of inclusion compared to the other articles listed.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 14:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 10:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
5. --LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 10:08, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scandinavian geography

Add Halti

We already list Finland's second highest peak Saana  5, so why not have the highest as well? 42 interwikis

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Seems somewhat important to Finland and Norway. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Kebnekaise

We could add Sweden's tallest peak by the same measure. 51 interwikis

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Gullfoss

A waterfall in Iceland, "Gullfoss is one of the most popular tourist attractions in Iceland". We already list Dettifoss  5, which is another famous Icelandic waterfall. 44 interwikis

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove ALL or MOST history by country, subdivision and city

This is a bold proposal. Many if not most countries should have stand alone pages in Vital articles already. These stand alone pages will have links to their respective history pages. Many, if not most, of the articles in this section are therefore redundant. There are also many articles that are very American centric, and it would be impossible to expand the same treatment to other major countries (or countries in general) while keeping the section tame. For example, there are 41 articles on History of US States, and one article for each of the original 13 US colonies. As an example, Virginia is a level 5 article, Colony of Virginia is a level 5 article, and History of Virginia is a level 5 article. By removing most if not all of the "History by country, subdivision and city" we can remove this redundancy and free up several hundred articles.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 14:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As NomGeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 14:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. These articles are useful summaries of many things that happened in a country's history but are not important enough to include. Additionally, countries themselves are primarily made of geography, so those were redundant, but the history of a country encompasses a wider range of activities and events. History is also going to be more important internationally than geography is. Saying that these are redundant because the country articles link to them is absurd. US-centric bias is something that is being dealt with in a more moderated way by selectively removing some of the state history articles that are less important, and is also not a good reason to nuke the whole section. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

   Also, some of them, such as History of the United States  4, are VA4 and thus cannot be removed in this discussion. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:30, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

2. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. I'd rather they were discussed on a case-by-case basis and potential replacements identified for the space opened up by their removal _pbp 20:35, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

• I agree again that we could cut some of them, but I would oppose removing them all or even most. You say that it would free up hundreds of article slots, but what would we even fill the free space with? I find we are having less and less obvious missing articles in History. If we want to free up space, I'd suggest all or most of the flags as better articles to cut. They're more unnecessary than these broad history articles of vital countries and regions. Makkool (talk) 14:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that almost all or even all of the national flags can go. I'd keep the Union Jack since it appears in a lot of currently-used flags, but that's about it. We don't need the number of flags we currently have. QuicoleJR (talk) 15:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I'd say the US stars and stripes, the French tricolour and possibly the Japanese flag are necessary to keep as well. I'd support maximum 10 to stay, the amount we now have is really excessive. I'll make a proposal some time in the future. Makkool (talk) 15:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

South Asian early modern history additions

Add Kingdom of Nagpur

One of the four rajas (member states) of the Maratha Confederacy  4, in addition to Gwalior State  5 and Baroda State  5. Fairly large at its peak.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Indore State

One of the four rajas (member states) of the Maratha Confederacy  4, in addition to Gwalior State  5 and Baroda State  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Ahmadnagar Sultanate

Member of the Deccan sultanates  4, and one of the three major of them not already a vital article, in addition to the Sultanate of Bijapur  5 and the Sultanate of Golconda  5. Larger and more prosperous than many of the small states currently in the same category.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 15:07, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Swap out Qajar dynasty  5 and Safavid dynasty  4 for Qajar Iran and Safavid Iran

The articles Qajar dynasty  5 and Safavid dynasty  4 are vital articles despite being only the dynasties for the countries they ruled, the much larger pages Qajar Iran and Safavid Iran. The latter two articles, about the countries themselves, are obviously the "vital" and more important of the two; 1319 words (Qajar dynasty) vs 7585 words (Qajar Iran) and 1239 words (Safavid dynasty) vs 19185 words (Safavid Iran). I don't see how we managed to have such mismatch in VA-ness, but these should of course be swapped.

Support

1. As nominator. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

• The Safavid swap would need to be proposed on the VA4 talk page instead of here, as it is a VA4 article. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Historical cities additions

Add Olympia, Greece

The location of the ancient Olympic games. Add to historical cities.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
4. Why not. JpTheNotSoSuperior (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Smyrna

An ancient Greek city in Anatolia, now Izmir, Türkiye.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 11:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Lüshunkou, Dalian

Formerly the historical city of Port Arthur, now a part of larger city Dalian  4.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:40, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove the following national flags

Previously, some of you expressed that our list had too many country flags (42) and suggested removing nearly all of them altogether. This proposal will reduce the list by a third, so while some of these may not be the most marginal, they probably don't make the cut by that standard.

• Flag of Algeria  5
• Flag of Tanzania  5
• Flag of the Democratic Republic of the Congo  5
• Flag of the Republic of China  5
• Flag of Israel  5
• Flag of Malaysia  5
• Flag of Myanmar  5
• Flag of Saudi Arabia  5
• Flag of the United Arab Emirates  5
• Flag of the Netherlands  5
• Flag of Ukraine  5
• Flag of Australia  5
• Flag of Colombia  5
• Flag of Argentina  5

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 16:09, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
2. They're flags. J947 ‡ ^edits 12:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
4. There are probably far more vital articles about individual countries than flag coverage. CMD (talk) 17:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
5. Support although we need to discuss what criteria, if any, make a flag vital _pbp 17:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
6. Support I think the list should be around 5, and this is a good start. We don't need every VA3 country's flag. QuicoleJR (talk) 12:06, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

   Besides the Stars and Stripes, the Union Jack and the French Tricolore, what else stays? I'd honestly say next after those is the USSR. _pbp 22:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

   Numerous flags could be represented by Triband (flag), instead of having individual listings. What other such convenient flag types are there?--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 07:28, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

   See Flag families, although the article should be taken with a pinch of OR salt. CMD (talk) 07:57, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

   Pan-African colours and Pan-Slavic colors could also be worth including. EDIT: Nordic cross flag and Pan-Arab colors definitely too. Makkool (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

   Maybe Japan because it has cultural connotations in both Japan and China, but other than that, we really only need these few. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Solidarity (Polish trade union)  5

I just noticed that Solidarity is listed in the history page, which is confusing to me, because it is an active trade union with hundreds of thousands of members, not a historical event (although I understand it was extremely important during the 1980s). I'm proposing it be moved to the individual trade unions list, which I think is a better fit. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:37, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 13:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Solidarity as a trade union is not VA5 in my opinion. I can't find current membership estimates but considering the trajectory, it most likely wouldn't even crack the top 100 largest trade unions in the world by active membership. All the trade unions we currently list are still massive and influential today. We could instead swap for the History of Solidarity article which, though it has only 6 interwikis, was a featured article. However, I'm fine with making Solidarity an exception we keep in History. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Greater China

A historical-cultural region with ties to the Chinese people, including both People's Republic of China and Republic of China (Taiwan). It feels like an article we should list in Vital Articles: we have the space for it, and it's rated High-Importance in Wikiproject China. Also a decent number of language versions (32).

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss