Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball

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Article structure on all international basketball tournament articles.

Currently there are three styles used in how the tournaments are presented in articles. One is having separate sections for each round of classification games (and essentially, all placing/consolation games, including the final). Another is placing all of the classification games under one section. The last is placing consolation matches in the sections for each round in the "main" knockout phase. I'd say either the second or third type of presentation is neater and reduced "visual noise" by reducing the number of sections and shortening the length of the TOC.

For a visualization on how they look like, the first presentation can be found at 2010 FIBA World Championship page, the second is at this version of the 2009 FIBA Asia Championship page, and the third presentation is the one used elsewhere, such as Eurobasket 2009.

The TOC appears like this for each presentation (only the sections pertaining to the tournament per se are included):

First	Second	Third
Preliminary round Group A Group B, etc. Knockout phase Quarterfinals 5th-8th classification Semifinals 7th place game 5th place game 3rd place game Final	Preliminary round Group A Group B, etc. Knockout phase Quarterfinals (includes qualification games) Semifinals (includes qualification games) Finals (includes qualification games)	Preliminary round Group A Group B, etc. Knockout phase Quarterfinals Classification round Semifinals Third place game Finals

WP:CANVASS: User:MrArticleOne, User:Bds69 and User:Mohsen1248 have been notified of this discussion. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 17:05, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree with HTD that the 2nd and 3rd presentations are slightly better and less cluttered visually (although I think the ultimate problem here is that they bother with extensive classification games in the first place). As between the 2nd and 3rd, I would like to see the arguments raised before making my own endorsement. MrArticleOne (talk) 02:51, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm just dumbfounded on why some people find the 1st one a "better format." –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 03:02, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

The future of Template:Current sport-related on sports team articles

A discussion has been recently initiated regarding the future persistent use of {{Current sport-related}}, and other similar templates on sports team articles. Please join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Current event templates#Premature deprecation of the template for sports team articles. Thanks. Zzyzx11 (talk) 07:47, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Wheelchair basketball

Does this project include wheelchair basketball? Roger (talk) 14:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I think I can now safely assume the answer is "No". Yet another manifestation of the discrimination faced by people with disabilities in all spheres of life, even here on WP. Roger (talk) 16:03, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Well no one ever goes here anyway. But I support but don't expect help from the people here... because they don't exist. :( –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 16:16, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Why assume that silence means "no"? The talk page simply isn't very active. Is there anything specific you would like help with? Zagalejo^^^ 03:16, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

On a related note, can someone do something to promote this Wikiproject? I've tried using the Community Portal but nothing happened. It'll be nice to create a MOS for basketball articles, standardizing the infoboxes, etc. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 11:51, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Mark Osowski

The article Mark Osowski has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

A search for references found a couple published (gBooks) very minor mentions of the subject. Fails WP:N and WP:V

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Your opinions and advice

A recently discussion Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Women's Sport. Your opinions and your advice are welcome. --Geneviève (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Disqualification

There is no article about disqualification (basketball). Should one be created, or should we just redirect to personal foul (basketball)? Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 02:46, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

How much do you think we could say about it? Zagalejo^^^ 21:14, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Probably nothing that isn't in personal foul...although the two things ARE different concepts Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 23:37, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if there are enough sources to go about, as most sources will tell occurrences of disqualifications not disqualifications per se... perhaps changes in the rules should be good enough. –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 02:33, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I would just propose a pre-emptive merge of "disqualification (basketball)" into its own subsection in "personal foul (basketball)", if anything. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Opinions on 2009 McDonald's All-American Girls Game and notability?

Hi, I came here from the new page patrol, the article 2009 McDonald's All-American Girls Game. I don't see any specific guidelines from your project for notability, so I thought I'd come here for advice. Is there a general consensus on high-school-level games? Is this a notable event? Also if you do think this is notable, where could I find non-self-published sources that might attest to this? HominidMachinae (talk) 00:31, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Template:Infobox FIBA tourney

there should be add "Games played", 15 games for 4 groups, 60 games and 16 games in nock out stage, total 76 games. Relevant because more games more tickets sold and more money for tv transmitions, also FIFA WC is and show "Matches played 64" --Feroang (talk) 03:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Career Stats Site?

Does anyone know if there is a basketball equivalent of HockeyDB? What I mean is a site that shows all players career stats beyond the NBA/ABA including North American minor league etc. I am wanting to update the roster of the Saskatoon Slam but have no idea where to find a) their entire roster and b) their last known team. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 19:24, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Something like that is going to be difficult to find online. I've never come across anything like that, unfortunately. I think your best bet would be to piece things together from old newspaper articles. Zagalejo^^^ 21:41, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Does USBasket.com/Eurobasket.com et al have historical teams? I know they have what I am looking for current players if I pay for it. I just wonder if they get into historical stuff? If they do and it isn't prohibitively expensive, I may consider doing that. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 21:45, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

If a guy was still playing during the 1990s, they usually will have some sort of profile for him, but I don't know how complete their information will be, or if it's organized in a useful manner. Unfortunately, I don't subscribe to the site, so I can't say much for sure. Zagalejo^^^ 22:07, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I found that at least some of the players it was useful. Took a bit of searching and playing around with the site, but I was able to compile last known teams for the majority of the players. Whether or not I have the complete roster is another story, but I did pull all those players out of game programs I had from the team. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 22:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Some leagues publish an annual. Those are offline sources, though, and may not include stats for every player (usually only the top ones only). –HTD (ITN: Where no updates but is stickied happens.) 04:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

The Australian NBL and Liga ACB in Spain both publish their media guides on line on their websites and both have a player register listing all players in their history. Liga ACB even has pdfs of each year's media guide back to the league's creation - which is really useful. The NBL has stats for each season of each team, but the gap comes with defunct teams - which are not captured. Rikster2 (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Two national teams

Is it possible for a player to represent more than one national team? I recently read Emir Preldžič and the article stated that he has represent Slovenia in the past and now he has Turkish citizenship and is eligible to play for Turkey. His eligibility was cited with a Turkish news article and a Turkish blog. Anyway, FIBA rules stated that:

A player who has played in a main official competition of FIBA (see article 2-1) after having reached his seventeenth (17) birthday may not play for a national team of another country.[1]

I believe that he is ineligible to play for Turkey, but I'm not really sure. Are there any other player who has represented more than one national team? Thoughts? — MT (talk) 03:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Ben Gordon played for the US in the 2003 Pan-American Games, when he was 20 years old, but is apparently eligible to play for the British national team. (I suppose it's possible that the powers that be aren't even aware that Gordon played in the Pan-Am Games, since no one really cares about them.) Zagalejo^^^ 04:12, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Well probably Pan-Am is not an official competition of FIBA. Anyway FIBA also states that:

However, in exceptional circumstances the Secretary General may authorise such a player to play for the national team of his country of origin if he is ineligible to play for such country according to this article 3-23 and if this is in the interest of the development of basketball in this country. An administrative fee as stipulated in article 3-305 and decided by the Secretary General is payable to FIBA.

Adding that Gordon is actually born in London, maybe he was given the exception. Anyway, back to Preldžič, I still don't think he is eligible for Turkey. He has Turkish citizenship just because he played in Turkey since 2007. — MT (talk) 05:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

2011 ESAKE A1 Ethniki MVP?

Has the 2011 MVP been named for {{ESAKE A1 Ethniki MVPs}} yet? I can't find anything that says so. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Basketball team naming convention

Since Galatasaray Café Crown and Beşiktaş Cola Turka recently ended their relationship deal with Café Crown and Cola Turka, an editor has moved them into Galatasaray Men's Basketball Team and Beşiktaş Men's Basketball Team respectively, before I moved them into their current name to correct the capitalization according to MOS:CAPS. However I just found out that similar multi-sports teams which main article are used for their football (soccer) team, i.e. F.C. Porto and S.L. Benfica, used a different naming convention for their basketball team: F.C. Porto (basketball) and S.L. Benfica (basketball). My question is: are there any sort of naming convention established before? I believe those article should be renamed Galatasaray S.K. (basketball) and Beşiktaş J.K. (basketball). Any opinions? — MT (talk) 06:42, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I would've preferred "Original football team name (basketball team)". Spanish clubs also have sponsored names but they're located at their football (if applicable)/original names.

A related concept is if you include the city name in standing/box score tables if their original name doesn't include it. Is "Panathinaikos" good enough for you or is "Panathinaikos Athens" more preferable? –HTD 07:04, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Let me summarize some of the names here:

• Real Madrid C.F. — Real Madrid Baloncesto (baloncesto is basketball in spanish)
• FC Barcelona — FC Barcelona Bàsquet (basquet is basketball in spanish)
• S.L. Benfica — S.L. Benfica (basketball)
• F.C. Porto — F.C. Porto (basketball)
• Galatasaray S.K. — Galatasaray men's basketball team (used to be named Galatasaray Café Crown but the sponsorship deal was ended)
• Beşiktaş J.K. — Beşiktaş men's basketball team (used to be named Beşiktaş Cola Turka but the sponsorship deal was ended)
• Fenerbahçe S.K. — Fenerbahçe Ülker (the basketball team is sponsored by Ülker)
• FC Bayern Munich — FC Bayern Munich (basketball)
• Bayer 04 Leverkusen — Bayer Giants Leverkusen
• Aris Thessaloniki — Aris B.C.
• Panathinaikos AO — Panathinaikos BC
• Maccabi Tel Aviv — Maccabi Tel Aviv B.C.
• Dynamo Sports Club — BC Dynamo Moscow
• CSKA Moscow — PBC CSKA Moscow
• CSKA Sofia (sports club) — PBC CSKA Sofia
• CSA Steaua Bucureşti — CSA Steaua Bucureşti (Basketball)
• SD Crvena Zvezda — KK Crvena zvezda

There are no consistency in the article name when the basketball team has exactly the same name with the football team or the main sports team. I personally prefer Team A (basketball) form to disambiguate them. — MT (talk) 08:43, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Let's follow the Spanish examples -- if the basketball name is different from the football name, let's use that. If they're the same, dab it with "(basketball team)" as it's already bad enough we have such article titles as "Basketball player (basketball)" instead of "Basketball player (basketball player)". We should've only used "(basketball)" for concepts related to the game such personal foul (basketball), Power forward (basketball), etc -- if there's a musician named LeBron James it would've been named "LeBron James (musician)" and not "LeBron James (music)". But I won't rant if people do use "Basketball team (basketball)", but it just looks off. –HTD 10:30, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

I think dab using "(basketball team)" is not good given that it is inconsistent to the use of "(basketball)" on players. I see Howard's point, but I think "(basketball)" was used because it is simpler than "(basketball player)". Simplicity is as important imo. As for naming, yes we should just follow the Spanish examples.—Chris!_c/t 19:52, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

NSPORT Basketball player notability by leagues

Hi, I made a post at Nsport relating to the list of basketball leagues and the wording. If you have any comments please post there. Thanks. Eldumpo (talk) 03:56, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Turkish sporting scandal

The article 2011 Turkish sports corruption scandal now contains information that is relevant to this project. Apparently some impropriety is alleged of a couple of Turkish basketball teams. Hack (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

NBA portal up for deletion

Since you haven't been notified as far as I can tell, I thought you should know of this discussion: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:National Basketball Association. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 04:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Australian Wheelchair Basketball Players

About 40 to 50 stub articles were added to Category:Paralympic wheelchair basketball players of Australia. It would be really great if people could help improve these articles, possibly get two or three long enough to get up to Did you know length so they could appear on the main page. :) Most of the articles are about players, men and women, from the 1996, 2000, 2004 and 2008 squads. this link and this linkmay have some sources that could help improve these articles to get them up to DYK length. :) Beyond that, help in fixing the talk pages to also include the importance of the articles to Wikiproject Basketball, possibly changing the template on the page from general sport person to basketball player would also be great. Many players, especially those at Athens and Beijing, currently play professionally or semi-professionally. Adding their club information to the article would be awesome. :) ~~----

New discussion of navboxes and succession boxes at the Village pump

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Using navboxes where succession boxes would suffice. Jweiss11 (talk) 14:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

I've notified WP:NBA about this. — MT (talk) 15:50, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Infoboxes; Height and Weight

FYI -- readers of this page may be interested in the discussion and poll here as to whether a baseball player's height and weight should be reflected in his wp infobox.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:58, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Greek/Italian league records

Are there any good, one-stop sources for statistical records in the Greek and Italian leagues? Thanks. (By records, I mean stuff like, "Most points in a game", etc.) Zagalejo^^^ 22:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I hold in my hands a 2011 Italian League annual that I got just today - 600+ pages of info and really excellent (but all in Italian). I bought it off Italian eBay and I am really happy with my purchase. It's really well done - about $30 and they do ship to the US. I don't believe their stats are on-line anywhere - or at least I haven't found them yet. No idea about the Greek league but I think the language is too hard for me to navigate. Rikster2 (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

BTW, the annual does verify the Landesberger rebound record (34 is the Lega Serie A record - set 11-11-1990). Rikster2 (talk) 22:25, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that! I did find some confirmation about the Italian league record; it's the Greek league record that still eludes me. Zagalejo^^^ 00:43, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, most leagues publish an annual. You'd have to ask the league though, as most of them are not available on the net. –HTD 11:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Unification of basketball infoboxes

Players

It's time to have one infobox for basketball players. There are several in use: Template:Infobox NBA biography, Template:Infobox basketball player and Template:Infobox PBA Player. I'll look for identical parameters on all three so it can be moved to Template:Infobox basketball player. Also, I'll be notifying the people at WT:NBA if it means that their infobox has to go. There is also a separate Template:Infobox NCAA Athlete and Template:Infobox college coach. These are used by WP:College basketball and WP:College football so if those have to be changed there has to be coordination on those two, too.

P.S.: I realized unifying these infoboxes are easy. What we need to do is to add parameters if a player goes on to become a coach or an executive. I don't think a separate infobox would suffice as virtually all coaches were players. We'd just have to emulate the association football infobox. –HTD 14:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The NCAA athlete infobox is its own entity entirely and should not be discussed in this proposition. It allows for variables such as the sport played and school colors to distinguish the athlete from other teams, plus NCAA athletes are amateurs by status and would not fall under a catch-all "basketball player" infobox. Jrcla2 (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... I read somewhere that the NCAA infobox was a collaboration between the college basketball and college football projects, so it's probably wrong to screw those up. Once the players turn pro they'd use any of the basketball infoboxes anyway. –HTD 17:00, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It is fine for the NCAA athlete infobox to exist separately. But I would like to have the basketball player infobox replacing the NCAA athlete infobox once a player reaches pro level.—Chris!_c/t 19:41, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Agreed, which is what should happen in an ideal (Wikipedia) world anyway. Jrcla2 (talk) 22:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

So even a college coach like Bryce Drew, a former NBA player, would be in the same box, right? Actually, I see no reason why this wouldnt already work with todays Template:Infobox NBA biography—Bagumba (talk) 23:01, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree that college coach who are former pro basketball player should use the new unified infobox. Currently there are some weird situation where some former NBA players/coaches became college coaches, they often have two infobox, Template:Infobox college coach and Template:Infobox NBA biography (example Isiah Thomas). I think this is really redundant. — MT (talk) 03:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess we really have to collaborate on WP:College basketball and even WP:College football on this one, since they created those templates. Apparently before, athletes played different sports so the NCAA athlete/coach infoboxes were created as a catch-all infobox that can be used when a person played different sports. –HTD 10:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

• Ok, the new infobox is at Template:Infobox basketball biography. Articles using Template:Infobox basketball player and Template:Infobox PBA Player should use the new one.—Chris!_c/t 00:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Template:Infobox basketball biography needs to be modified to allow PBA Draft included in the infobox. That's the only thing I found at the moment. Are there any other features from Template:Infobox basketball player and Template:Infobox PBA Player that need to be added to the unified infobox? — MT (talk) 03:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Add PBA draft. Please test it.—Chris!_c/t 06:05, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I haven't checked, but if the parameters to the new infobox and to the PBA infobox are identical, I guess it'll be safe if the PBA infobox is redirected to the new one. The PBA infobox doesn't link to the draft in question, so it must be easier -- if it's linked all articles that use the PBA infobox has to be changed; although it should be denoted in the first place. –HTD 10:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess nothing more. Also, I dunno if other basketball leagues have a draft so we should probably make it optional to denote what draft it is. But that means all basketball league drafts should be located at "<year> <league> Draft" (like 2011 NBA Draft, 2011 PBA Draft. etc.). Now we need to add coaches' parameters. What are those? Teams coached, wins, losses, PCT? What else? Are we going to add executives' parameters too? What are possible executive parameters? Also, since there are parameters for the Naismith Hall of Fame, there can also be parameters for a FIBA Hall of Fame, and probably other leagues/organizations that have hall of fames.–HTD 04:18, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

FIBA Hall of Fame is a good idea, but I don't think we need coaches stats in the infobox. IMO, it's too much information for the infobox. — MT (talk) 04:55, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

FIBA HOF for players added. I implemented on Bill Russell and it works perfectly.—Chris!_c/t 06:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes that'll be prone to edits by anons. So we'd only add teams coached? –HTD 05:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

One thing that might be worth noting is that Template:Infobox basketball player requires that a player's current team be listed in the infobox with brackets around it (eg, [[Detroit Pistons]]), while Template:Infobox basketball biography doesn't (you can just type Detroit Pistons into the field, and you'll automatically create the link). Zagalejo^^^ 04:43, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there something that can be done so that it'll work whether there are brackets or not? –HTD 05:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Death date and place of death need to be a standard parameter for all of these (maybe not the active box provided we are good at switching it should a player die during their career). I have been creating a number of articles for recently deceased retired players and it is a PITA every time. Also, this is a wish list item and may make the infobox too large, but perhaps adding the country or league for each team entry. It is confusing for players who have moved across leagues a lot - people are either adding the country in parentheses, or the league acronym. Last point, I would question the statvalue fields - for NBA players it's pretty straightforward (how many points, rebounds, etc in NBA play) for players who switch leagues a lot (especially those who played at least some time in the NBA as well), these get tough to complete. For Bob McAdoo is it just his NBA totals or his Italian League totals as well - and much of the non-NBA info can be hard to track down. Just a few thoughts Rikster2 (talk) 07:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing - is this a chance for consensus on how to display team/club history when a person plays is 2 or more leagues during the same season (either NBA/NBDL or two countries)? Not sure I love the current NBA/NBDL depiction (see Hasheem Thabeet for example) and it becomes more of an issue with global leagues as players move quite frequently due to contracts, transfers, etc. Rikster2 (talk) 07:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the NBA stats can stay, it's just it has to be stated as "NBA STATS". As for teams being denoted by their countries, the football infobox doesn't do this (I think it's frowned upon). So I guess it should only be team names. –HTD 10:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The format you see for Thabeet is when an NBA player is assigned to the D-League, but remained on the NBA team roster. It was based on the format football uses for players on loan, e.g. see Alexander Hleb. As a background, there was an initial discussion and then a final discussion to reach consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 07:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The format (→Team (League/country)) should only be used when the player is loaned out, such as this player who is loaned out to another team but is still under contract with his parent team. In the NBA, the D-League assignments is similar to these European loan deals, where the player is still under contract with his NBA team, but plays for the D-League team. — MT (talk) 09:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, the thing the football infobox uses for loans can be used in D-League assignments. –HTD 10:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think the NBA/NBDL thing is fine as it appears to create consistency between basketball and association football. I guess we need to be more careful that when players are loaned out in basketball (which does occur in European leagues) that it is shown the same way. But I take it we are adding date and place of death? That really needs to happen. Rikster2 (talk) 17:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Death date and place parameters already exist. But that wasn't show in the doc page. I will fix that later.—Chris!_c/t 18:20, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

That would be great Chris. DOD and POD are pretty important and should show in the example template. Otherwise we make it difficult for less experienced editors (or even more experienced editors who aren't as technically inclined - ala me) to create and edit these kind of articles. Rikster2 (talk) 22:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Is it just me, or there is something wrong with the new unified infobox. Several players, such as Trey Johnson and Curtis Stinson, have a broken infobox where only several information are listed. — MT (talk) 05:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I have the same issue, and it seems similar to the earlier problem with Oscar Robertson that was already fixed. I tired reverting all the recent changes after the move, but it seems the problem must have existed beforehand. The crazy thing is if you edit the page (my preferences have preview enabled) then the infobox shows fine, but in "read" mode it is not. Problem seems to exist for infobox without images ... except Oscar Robertson which works. I dont claim to be an expert on this, so I'll leave it for someone else to hack around.—Bagumba (talk) 08:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It's been fixed.—Chris!_c/t 22:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I still see this problem cropping up (eg, at Terry Driscoll, which is missing the information that usually comes at the top of an infobox). I have no idea what could be causing it. Zagalejo^^^ 05:44, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

So I copied the infobox text from Terry Driscoll to a sandbox and it worked OK. Then I tried {{subst:Infobox NBA biography ...} in Terry Driscoll to see if it expanded correctly and that worked OK. The I reverted the changes and the page starts working. I'm at a loss to explain. I dont even understand the previous "fix" for Trey Johnson and Curtis Stinson before. From what I can tell, it shouldnt have made a difference.—Bagumba (talk) 11:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I figured it out. You need to purge the page, which I though meant clearing the cache on my browser. It's not ... its actually WPs servers that need to be purged. That is why before if I edited the page everything looked fine. Not sure how to force purge this for all pages that use the template.—Bagumba (talk) 11:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, purging the page is different from clearing the cache on browser. Anyway, when you see a problem, try purging the page first to see if that fixes it. If it doesn't, then it indicates a problem is with the template.—Chris!_c/t 19:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 00:29, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Purging seems to work whenever I see this problem. However, I have no idea how widespread the problem is. It just seems to occur at random articles; there's no pattern that I see. Zagalejo^^^ 03:01, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

NBA defaults

There is a parameter "league" that Template:Infobox NBA biography defaulted to "NBA" before. When it's NBA, a link to the player profile at NBA.com was added to the infobox. Can we assume all non-NBA players explicitly fill in the league param to ensure backwards compability?—Bagumba (talk) 00:36, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The league field is something that has bothered me for a while. I wish it were completely optional, and not bundled with an NBA.com link generator. It's mainly a problem for retired players. If a retired guy played in ten different countries over his career, what are you supposed to put into the league field? Even when dealing with active players, the league field is in a weird part of the infobox (far away from the name of the player's current team), and may lead to confusion. Zagalejo^^^ 05:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

For retired players, league field should be left empty to avoid the problem. This field is for active players.—Chris!_c/t 19:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem is the field is overloaded. It displays the league, and it was used to link to the NBA profile in the infobox. If the field was missing, it was assumed to be an NBA player.—Bagumba (talk) 02:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Teams

Another one is an infobox for teams. Although this is not as easy as the players' one, it's not that hard. But we'd have to finish the players' one first. –HTD 04:19, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

International career research

I have started articles for Martell Bailey and David Bailey (basketball). I am hoping you can help me fill in their professional careers. I have seen both names mentioned at eurobasket.com and David's name is in the following articles: Halifax Rainmen, Tartu Ülikool/Rock and Buffalo Sharks. I also recently created Kit Mueller who played a little while in Switzerland.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:58, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

David Bailey has also played in the D-League: [2]. (Not international, but relevant.) Eurobasket.com is the most comprehensive site for the kind of info you want; unfortunately, most of the content is behind paywalls. Zagalejo^^^ 02:28, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

High school template categories

I do not understand this edit removing Category:Basketball trophies and awards and Category:High school basketball in the United States from {{USA Today National Basketball Player of the Year}}. Also, why don't templates like {{Gatorade National Basketball Player of the Year}} have these categories.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:27, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

That's a fair question. Don't know either, and can't tell from the edit summary. I would suggest pinging the editor.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Circball

Sinces the stated Focus of this Project is "this WikiProject will focus on basketball outside the United States," could the sport of Circball be appropriate for inclusion in this WikiProject? Please comment on the proposal for deletion page whether the Circball article should be a stand-alone article or be re-direct here or at another Wiki article. Time is of the essence, please comment now. Thanks.Circball (talk) 18:13, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Dutch Lonborg

Dutch Lonborg and A. C. Lonborg: two pages for one person. Please, consider to merge the two pages. Thank you, --Delfort (talk) 10:05, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Dutch was a college basketball coach during the 1930s while A.C. was a college football coach during the 1920s. –HTD 11:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I think they are the same. Dutch Lonborg HoF bio mentions that he coached McPherson College, Washburn University, and Northwestern University. What are the chance that McPherson employed two different coach with the name Arthur C. "Dutch" Lonborg and A. C. "Dutch" Lonborg — MT (talk) 12:54, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It's the same guy. It was not unusual for the same person to coach multiple sports at a college then. Rikster2 (talk) 12:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Oops I didn't see the football and basketball. However this newspaper article from 1922 mentions that McPherson's football coach Dutch Lonborg used to play both basketball and football for Kansas. — MT (talk) 12:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Then somebody has to fix those up. –HTD 13:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Done, contents merged, A. C. Lonborg became a redirect to Dutch Lonborg. — MT (talk) 13:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, he is the same person. Thank you for merging. --Delfort (talk) 12:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Foshan Dralions or Foshan Longlions

Does anyone familiar with Chinese basketball know which one is correct? The article is located at Foshan Dralions since the team moved and changed its name from Shaanxi Kylins in 2010. However the lead and the team logo both use the name Foshan Longlions. — MT (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Jabari Parker medal record

I am not sure what is proper. I moved the medal record box in the Jabari Parker article. Any opinions on where it belongs?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

"Note" parameter in Template:Basketballbox

First, the series parameter was abused, now to circumvent this, Mohsen1248 added a note parameter. God knows how this would be abused further. –HTD 11:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

"league" field in infobox

In {{Infobox basketball biography}}, if "league" is not set, it defaults to NBA, and a link to NBA.com is generated. Should we change to not default to NBA? I ran across an issue with Malcolm Thomas (basketball, born 1988). He was waived by the Lakers and has never played in the NBA, so an NBA.com link should not be generated. However, it doesnt make sense to fill in "league" (as a workaround to bypass the NBA default) if he is not currently playing in any league. In a previous discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Basketball#NBA_defaults, the only participants were NBA project people here, and I can't imagine anyone outside here objecting to removing NBA default. Chris previously suggested "This field is for active players." The impact to NBA bios will be that NBA.com will be removed from all players those that did not set "league" to NBA, both active and retired players. It will need to be added back manually by setting "league" or through "nba" parameter (the code was already there for "nba" field but is not documented).—Bagumba (talk) 23:13, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Is there a way where it'll be hidden when something like a switch (like league=n, i dunno how it is properly called or a second parameter like {{{league|{{{leaguelink}}}) is used? All notable basketball players must've played in a league at some point. –HTD 02:08, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the first issue to resolve is what "league" should display once a player retires or it a free agent? All their past leagues, or none? Answering that, the appropriate solution will be clearer. I'm OK with not having league once a player retires.—Bagumba (talk) 02:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Apparently the parameter is for the current league. That means if he's retired should that mean it's empty? Or is the league parameter solely for the purpose of creating the NBA.com link? –HTD 02:24, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The league param I will guess existed before the NBA.com link. Instead of introducing a new param to generate the NBA.com link, the decision was probably made to piggyback on top of an existing param with the needed info already.—Bagumba (talk) 04:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

As I said before, I think we should omit the "league" field for retired players and free agents. For some players, the list of past leagues will stretch to five, six, seven+ entries, which will look awful in an infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 05:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

This can be resolved with creating a separate parameter for the external link that only works if the league is set as "NBA". –HTD 06:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

High School Basketball

After working on Jabari Parker (which is likely to become the first high school basketball WP:GA to my knowledge) and Mitch McGary, I was wondering if there should be a WikiProject for either high school sports or specifically for high school basketball. There are a lot of athletes at this level who pass WP:GNG.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there should be a separate WikiProject. Despite Wikipedia's popularity, it's incredibly tough to get a WikiProject going and to get enough members involved who will actively participate. The NBA and college basketball WPs are alive and thriving, but even this WikiProject (Basketball in general) doesn't really have many active editors, so there shouldn't be a split into an even more subdivided WP. High school basketball, IMO, should remain part of WP:Basketball in general. Jrcla2 (talk) 17:31, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

What about a high school sports project.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:27, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there's enough interest from others to create and maintain that. WikiProject Basketball seems fairly small in membership as is, so high school basketball should just be here instead of breaking off into an even smaller project. Agent Vodello^{OK, Let's Party, Darling!} 20:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Wheelchair basketball and Australian Wikimedians to the Paralympic Games

If you're a fan of the wheelchair basketball and in Australia, HOPAU/W2G|Wikimedians to the Games is an opportunity to improve wheelchair basketball articles, cover wheelchair basketball and potentially attend the Paralympic Games in person. :) It would be great to see the wheelchair basketball articles improved even more. There should be a few articles that are easy to take to GA with out that much work, as at least 10 of them have been Did You Knows and are assessed between C and B. (You could probably get the paid trip to London based on wheelchair basketball players alone.) --LauraHale (talk) 08:08, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

A teamwork together

Why not? Each of us has the skills and we can quite together contribute. We propose the writing together of the page Major women's sport leagues in North America. In more this collective realization can allow us of know and to settle together a solidarity with Wikipedia:WikiProject Women's sport, Thanks --Cordialement féministe ♀ Cordially feminist Geneviève (talk) 14:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

High school boy's basketball All-American

Currently, wikipedia seems to recognize 4 types of high school basketball All-Americans: Jordan Brand Classic, McDonald's All-American Game, Parade All-American (Category:Parade High School All-Americans (boys' basketball)), USA Today All-USA high school basketball team. I was thinking about creating an article for ESPN Rise high school basketball All-Americans starting with the first team selections from the following teams:

1. 2009: http://espn.go.com/high-school/boys-basketball/story/_/id/4069747/bradley-takes-home-national-player-year-all-america-honors/
2. 2010: http://rise.espn.go.com/boys-basketball/articles/2010/04/22-ER-All-American-1st-team.aspx
3. 2011: http://rise.espn.go.com/boys-basketball/articles/2011/04/21-ER-All-American-1st-team.aspx?pursuit=BoysBasketball

Do people think that this constitutes a major honor worthy of an article?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:22, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

personally I think that only McDonald's and Parade are really worthy of articles. There has been a recent proliferation of HS basketball templates that I don't think are worthy as well. Just my two cents, but I think there ought to be a pretty high bar for inclusion of HS sports content. Rikster2 (talk) 12:39, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Read a few articles at ESPN HS. It seems to me that Jordan Brand Classic is nearly spoken in the same breath with McDonald's.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Eh, high schoolers can take part in two All-Star games after their senior year and I am not aware of anyone who has ever turned down a McDonald's game invite - it's clearly top dog. Jordan Brand is probably #2, but some top players opt to attend different events. I guess the question is if #2 is a big enough deal. I will freely admit that I err on the side of not including much in HS basketball. There are simply too many non-notable players, but it feels like folks are trying to push down that bar more and more every day. Rikster2 (talk)

I don't know about turning down invites. I am just going by what I have been reading. I don't consider myself pushing down the bar. When people have encyclopedic content in USA Today, Dime Magazine, ESPN HS, etc., it is just a matter of synthesizing sources. Obviously some great high schoolers will never make the pros due to injuries or legal issues, but if the content is there why not synthesize it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:45, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is an example of what I am talking about: Template:Mr. Basketball USA. To me, this just reads like a bunch of ESPN.com editors got together and went back and named all-time HS players of the year for an article. I don't at all think the historical sigificance is there in this case and was surprised when this template started appearing on articles. It's no different from The Sporting News picking the top 100 college basketball programs of all time, which they did several years back. I don't think the article or the template is encyclopedia-worthy. In the case of Jordan Brand - the article is probably noteworthy enough, but why is there a template for the MVP? Seems like a fairly minor honor to be MVP of what is one of many HS all-star games. Again, this is just my perspective. Yours is clearly different or you wouldn't be creating all these articles/templates. Rikster2 (talk) 19:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

If ESPN Rise can have proper references attributed to it to show that it's a top-class high school award like the others then I don't see why it can't be included, but Wikipedia needs to be very careful about including website-specific awards for high school athletes. I couldn't even begin to imagine how many could potentially pop up if we start allowing them to pass through. Jrcla2 (talk) 13:37, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

By proper reference, I assume you mean something other than ESPN The Magazine, TrueHoop and other ESPN-related properties.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:58, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah pretty much. Anything at all ESPN-related would essentially be pimping its own award, but you're pretty good at finding sources so I have little doubt that you'll be able to prove this award is worthy. I just don't want to see an ESPN award article with 80% of the references from ESPN Internet Venture company articles, ya know? Jrcla2 (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't know what I can find outside of itself. Most of my high school basketball WP:RS are either ESPN HS or USA Today. I haven't noticed them referring to each other's awards. I will check Dime Magazine and SLAM Magazine and the general web to see what is out there.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:55, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

But that's the problem and therein lies why GNG exists: If you can't find any sources outside of itself, then it's not a notable enough (this/that/other) to be on Wikipedia. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:54, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm OK as long as multiple independent sources satisfy WP:GNG.—Bagumba (talk) 19:11, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I just figured out that this was formerly the EA Sports All-American team:

1. 2008: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1132&CID=796016
2. 2007: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1132&CID=664465
3. 2006: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1132&CID=537673
4. 2005: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1132&CID=356222

--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

I found a history of High School AA team articles at http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=1132&CID=356222. It included a few of the EA Sport Precursor AA teams by Student Sports and clarified that the history goes back to 1989. These are all paywalled, however.

1. 2004: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?ReturnTo=&sid=&script=content.asp&cid=353535
2. 2003: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?ReturnTo=&sid=&script=content.asp&cid=535420
3. 2002: http://ssbasketball.rivals.com/barrier_noentry.asp?ReturnTo=&sid=&script=content.asp&cid=535459

Just to clarify - the Rivals.com article on the AA history is referring to the EA Sports All-Americans, which later evolved into what we presently call the ESPN Rise All-Americans? Jrcla2 (talk) 14:39, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes Student Sports All-American (1989-2004), EA Sports All-American (2005-2008), ESPN Rise All-American (2009-2011), and my guess is that it will be ESPN HS All-American in 2012 going forward.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:10, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

It looks like I have some work to do on the name changes. I just noticed, it does not actually expressly state the changes.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:38, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I support the article creation, since apparently it's been a mainstay as a top tier high school basketball award (albeit through different name changes over time). I would ask that a section in the article be exclusively dedicated to the naming history so that we know what it was called and when (doesn't have to be a long section). As someone who is familiar with high school basketball awards, even I did not know that, so how would a casual reader? Jrcla2 (talk) 16:08, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

High School basketball underclass POY templates

I just stumbled upon this source for underclass POYs. Since American footballl has the following templates: Template:ESPNRISE Sophomore, Template:ESPNRISE Junior, Template:Rivals Junior of the Year (which may need some updating if the awards continue to exist), I am going to create templates and I may stub out articles, but I have not noticed much press outside of ESPN regarding the subject. For those of you interested in discussing the notability of underclass POYs, I submit Jabari Parker. Based on my knowledge of Chicago high school basketball, creating underclass POY templates will help distinguish legenday high school legends who become bustouts or for some other reason do not rise to high notability later. E.g. Ronnie Fields and Ben Wilson. I will start creating these templates later today unless there is objection. I am not awaiting approval, but given some questions on high school basketball template notability I wanted the issue to be out there.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Object. Thanks for pointing out those class-specific templates for football. When I get the chance I'm going to TfD them. Class-specific awards, specifically for high schoolers, is not needed. Jrcla2 (talk) 14:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't understand your objection. Underclass POYs are the types of people who have extensive WP:RS as noted above with my current example. In basketball, they are far more likely to be All-Star pros than in football, which already has the templates. Notify me of any TFD. Also note the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_American_football#American_high_school_football_underclass_POY_templates regarding the football templates. Football may have been discontinued since they don't seem to go on to be All-Stars that often.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:28, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I never said anything about RS Tony, please point out where I did. My argument is that high school awards need to be very carefully selected as to which ones should have navboxes. Class-specific players of the year shouldn't because it's just template clutter at that point (going back to my original point, WP:NENAN). Jrcla2 (talk) 14:37, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
      • For editors, the templates would point to the highest priority high school basketball players. For example, I would like to read an article about the new Tony Parker who is a current senior in high school as opposed to Tony Parker and Anthony Parker. Awards like this can help editor figure out which players are the most notable and in need of editorial effort.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
        • You are most likely the only person on all of Wikipedia who cares about the high school Tony Parker, but that's beside the point. Editors who "need help" figuring out what articles to create or expand should do the preferred method which has been done on this website since day one - leave a comment at the respective WikiProject's talk page. It's not difficult and it's prone to better results because numerous editors can chime in and say what needs to be worked on. Creating a navbox for selfish editorial purposes is a terrible reason for creation. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
          • One more side point: You started your response with "For editors" - this is an online encyclopedia for readers. We, the editors, just happen to be the ones greasing the wheels behind the scenes. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - "Based on my knowledge of Chicago high school basketball, creating underclass POY templates will help distinguish legenday high school legends who become bustouts or for some other reason do not rise to high notability later." That is not the point of an encyclopedia, nor is it in any way useful. Creating class-specific navboxes would not "help distinguish" anything, especially not those who turned out to be busts. While a navbox is a neutral concept, your rationale is not. In the prose of Ronnie Field or Ben Wilson's articles is where the topic of being a "bust" can be written, and only if there are RS that say such. I am even more convinced now that these navbox proposals are unnecessary banner-hanging. Jrcla2 (talk) 15:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - those awards can't even see notable from where they are. Just ESPN and Rivals creating content from thin air. Rikster2 (talk) 15:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • What do you mean creating content from thin air. What do you think the Touchdown Club of Columbus does? We recognize every one of them. I can almost guarantee, I can find more content for a high school basketball underclass POY than a Jim Parker Trophy winner.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose There is less interest in finding other winners of a HS class award than a college award winner. I think the clutter in very accomplished athletes' articles should be avoided, especially when there is no consensus on when a navbox should not be added to an article. For lesser basketball players, I think the navbox will only serve a small minority of readers interested in players not in the HS players' district and likely in a different state altogether.—Bagumba (talk) 17:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • I don't find the logic that a Ronnie Fields type player would only interest Chicagoans very good. Look at his navbox. It seems to me that his international relevance is as diverse as more notable player.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
    • The problem is that Ronnie Fields may be ok to have a navbox on his article because there are currently none, but what about when you get to Lebron James and Kobe Bryant? The last thing they need is a navbox saying they were the best high school (freshman/sophomore/junior/senior) in the country. That type of information is exactly what should be included in prose, not in template clutter. Nobody is going to go to Lebron's article to see if he was the national junior of the year or whatever the heck that award is; they're going to go there because of his professional and Team USA careers. Jrcla2 (talk) 18:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
      • Nobody is saying the award shouldn't be mentioned at all - but why is a navbox necessary? Just put a note in the section about the guy's HS career and be done with it. Rikster2 (talk) 18:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
        • A mention in the article makes it hard to find other people who won the award. A template can link related articles. However, an article would fail WP:N because I can not find non ESPN sources.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
          • Making other awardees easier to find isn't a concern here. Even guideline #4 on WP:NAVBOX says, "There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template." That in itself almost certainly disqualifies this navbox from existing. Jrcla2 (talk) 19:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
            • If the article would fail notability, then the navbox would too. Rikster2 (talk) 20:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
              • I have never seen a TFD resolved by WP:GNG.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
                • There's a first for everything. Jrcla2 (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
    • Navbox should help readers get to articles they might be interested in. I dont see how many readers interested in basketball in, say, Lebannon, would be assumed to have interest in other American high school award winners. Have a link to the award, reader can go to that link and get more links without the clutter of navbox. IMO a navbox is not worth the real estate in this case.—Bagumba (talk) 18:44, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Categories for discussion nomination of Category:Male basketball players

Category:Male basketball players, which is under the purview of this WikiProject, has been nominated for merging. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 07:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)