Talk:Taiwan

Biased

I think that this article was written by Taiwan or a person who is biased First of all it contains no Simplified Chinese and only contains Traditional Chinese second it claims to be a country when Taiwan is not consider a country by the United Nations as per United Nations General Assembly Resolution 2758 and United Nations considers Taiwan a part of China and not its own country Also it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.64.106 (talk • contribs) 10:18, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

We do not say the UN says it's a country.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

In English, a country is not necessarily a sovereign country. But you surely pointed out a potential confusion that the opening text isn't clear about the "country". I think it should at least link to the country article. Or better: making it clear that the subject's statehood is in dispute. --Matt Smith (talk) 13:09, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

And who made the UN the definitive source for what is or is not a country? Logically, they CAN'T be the definitive source as countries existed long before the UN. --Khajidha (talk) 23:04, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Howe about Constituent country? -- GoodDay (talk) 14:36, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

That would be objected by readers who hold that Taiwan is a sovereign country. --Matt Smith (talk) 15:19, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Taiwan uses Traditional Chinese characters, so that makes complete sense. Using Simplified Chinese would be more biased. John Smith's (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Hence the reason it was so long at "state" rather than "sovereign state". "Country" is a bit more ambiguous but it's what was decided by editors in the last formal discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:39, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2021

You seem to have Taiwan listed as part of the chinese communist party. Taiwan is an independent nation. Just ask them. 2601:602:9A00:1570:9D62:E71C:1673:AFBD (talk) 20:20, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done It's not clear what you want done. The first sentence says that Taiwan is a country in east Asia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:23, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Change the first sentence

While the first sentence now is correct, the name of ROC is so confusing that the readers repeatedly misunderstood when reading the sentence. There are already four discussions about this in only one month. (Sections Talk:Taiwan#Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2021, Talk:Taiwan#Taiwan is not part of China, Talk:Taiwan#Semi-protected edit request on 19 July 2021, Talk:Taiwan#Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2021)

Could we put extra emphasis when talking about this counterintuitive name, for example, change the first sentence into:

Taiwan is a country in East Asia. The official name of the country is the Republic of China (ROC).--2603:8080:1301:7F26:A147:2FD3:B401:EBDA (talk) 20:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

How the heck is that better than "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia." It is better the way it is. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

The first sentence is perfect. The use of “country”, with its quite broad range of meanings, is quite good. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Speaking of the use of "country", here I would like to inform native English-speaking editors that the Chinese translation of "country" (國家) is a synonym of "sovereign country". That apparently is why there has been many non-native English-speaking readers, who are likely Chinese, disagreeing with the use of "country" in the first sentence. --Matt Smith (talk) 02:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I know this. But it is a problem with their translation, not with the use of the word in English. Linking to country helps considerably. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:02, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

The first sentence is not perfect, readers repeatedly misunderstood the sentence. While it is a mistake on their part, we could improve the article if we can find a way to say it so that less people will misunderstand. Four people above confused ROC and PRC in only one month. If we explicitly say the official name of Taiwan is the ROC, instead using appositions, there might be less confusion between ROC and PRC. --2603:8080:1301:7F26:A147:2FD3:B401:EBDA (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

IP, it is not clear what you mean to say.

The first sentence is "Taiwan, officially the Republic of China (ROC), is a country in East Asia".

This thread was about the word "country", but you want to talk about the abbreviation "ROC"? I don't think the definition of the abbreviation here confuses anyone, and its absence would confuse many. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Reply to User:Matt Smith or anyone.

The translation

Country --> 国家

is indeed a problem. It is a classically funny case where circular translation changes the meaning.

Country --> 国家 --> Nation, State, Sovereign-country

Google has become much better at this. It used to be terrible. Here, I think the problem is of words having cultural nuances, and the two languages sharing words that match approximately, but not exactly.

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/国家 is a poor translation for country. It matches an acceptable interpretation, but the Chinese word is more formally defined, whereas the English word is old, apolitical, even pre-political. "Country" can be used to mean "nation", but if we mean to say "nation", we do not use the word "country".

The following may be considered possible translations of "country":

* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/领土 (territory)

* https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/地区 (area of land)

I have wondered why "island" (https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/島嶼) doesn't get more discussion. I think it is because in English, while "island" can mean any size up to Australia, it is normally reserved for small islands of sort of homogenous terrain. An island of mountains, plains and forests is more than an ordinary island.

--SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: I presumed it was because the Republic of China also controls other small islands not just the main one? and the thing being referred to is the whole (whatever we're calling it) not just the biggest island? (now I'm wondering whether my island has a name) Irtapil (talk) 16:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Since the article title is "Taiwan", I think we need to firstly determine what "Taiwan" should be referred to as. Some claim that "Taiwan" is a country; some others claim that "Taiwan" is a province of China. The first sentence needs to make a balance between these different views, in the light of WP:NPOV. --Matt Smith (talk) 08:34, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@Matt Smith: I think a "see also" liking the articles that cover it in detail would be best. e.g.

* Foreign relations of Taiwan

* Chinese Taipei

* One-China policy

* Taiwan independence movement

I tried adding a couple of them to the header or guest paragraph, but it got removed pending discussion, and i ran out of stamina for the discussion. Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It has been done, over one year ago, at Talk:Taiwan/Archive 30#RfC:Taiwan, "country" or "state". The answer is "country". In English, the "country" doesn't belong to people or governments, it has its own identity. The problem is with non-native English speakers not appreciating the subtlety, and the poor translation into Chinese. I'm not sure what more we can do, beyond having already linked country where it is well explained. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:58, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe: lost in translation explains one side of the argument, i wondered why anyone cares so much about Taiwan being as independant as Wales, but it doesn't explain why native speakers of English are so obsessed with the word country? (maybe i should check the page for Northern Ireland…) But the more i think about it the less sure i am about who is even in which side. Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Even Wales is a "country" in the UK. "Wales is a country that is part of the United Kingdom". You could say "Taiwan is a country in the PRC…", but I'm sure that would please nobody? The bigger problem is you need to mention PRC's point of view in the relationship as soon as you mention the PRC, not three paragraphs later, even if it's just a "see below" Irtapil (talk) 15:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

"The bigger problem is you need to mention PRC's point of view in the relationship as soon as you mention the PRC” Why? I don’t know of anything that means we “need” to do that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

The delay is misleading, like if the article on the Hiroshima nuclear strike took till paragraph four to mention the USA did it. Irtapil (talk) 15:18, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

How is that comparable? This isn’t a page for a military action taken by the PRC. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:11, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Wales was formally joined to the Kingdom of England by the Act of Union of 1563 and regained autonomy for most local matters in 1997 when the Welsh Assembly was established. Taiwan was never and does not want to be part of the People's Republic of China. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 07:10, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Off-topic. CMD (talk) 05:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

And how on earth are you here so quick? @Horse Eye's Back: you appeared as i was neatening the line breaks. Where are you? I'm in the Western Pacific, to anyone near Taiwan the most relevant thing about it is potential violent military disputes over sovereignty. So I'm guessing you're either in Taiwan, or on the opposite side of the world? Irtapil (talk) 15:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC) I have this page watchlisted, I don’t know how it is for you but for me editing does not require physical travel. Through the magic of the internet I travel near instantaneously and that is how I appeared here despite it being so far away from where I live. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2021 (UTC) @Horse Eye's Back: Don't be silly, as i said i was asking because you seem to have a very different view to mine about what's most relevant, and being very very very far away from it would explain that. I have pages watch listed, i still don't show up within seconds. Why do you care so much if your are so far away? and why are you so determined to deprioritise points that are more important to anyone closer? Irtapil (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC) I never said anything about my geographical relationship to Taiwan and I don’t intend to. As for those last two lines you appear to be begging the question. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:16, 9 August 2021 (UTC) I'm not begging, just asking, will begging help? and what on earth does "despite it being so far away from where I live" mean if it's not about your "geographical relationship to Taiwan"? Irtapil (talk) 18:08, 9 August 2021 (UTC) I actually am just asking, i want to knew why your are fixated on this debate so i can understand your point of view here. I don't understand where you're coming from here, figuratively OR literally. Irtapil (talk) 18:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

It's impossible for everyone to be pleased by the article or indeed it's title or introduction. If the PRC and ROC governments looked at the Wikipedia China and Taiwan talk pages and their archives, I'd be prepared to bet my left lung that they'd sooner come to an agreement than the bickering here over sentences, titles, etc. ceasing. Oh well. --Tærkast (Discuss) 17:35, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Changes to be proposed

There is an ongoing sovereignty dispute in Afghanistan right now but how about we do the same by reorganizing the PRC/ROC articles by joining the discussion on the talk page. —-174.89.100.2 (talk) 17:30, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Nope. Phlar (talk) 04:08, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

There is no major confusion at all. The article is pretty solid and has been for awhile. No idea where this is coming from. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:16, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

At first you need to specify what change could be rearranged or suggested, otherwise I did not see any comparable points for Afganistan to do with this article, not at all. 123.192.182.76 (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2021

Change Taiwan's status as a country to a special administrative region. 2407:7000:A168:5045:FD9E:6222:295E:1B08 (talk) 03:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done since it's against overwhelming consensus. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:04, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Not to mention reality. --Tærkast (Discuss) 17:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 September 2021 (Hakka description and grammar/spelling)

Under the section "Ethnic Groups", for the description of the Hakka migrants, the sentence may have a grammar issue:

"The Hakka comprise about 15 per cent of the total population, and descend from Han migrants to Guangdong, its surrounding areas and Taiwan."

Taiwan is not an origin place for the Hakka; They are migrants from what is now mainland China (predominantly from Guangdong and areas around there I believe). I also recommend this sentence be changed to correct some grammar and spelling issues like:

"The Hakka comprise about 15 percent of the total population and descend from Han migrants of Guangdong and its surrounding areas." Kyng09 (talk) 18:42, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 03:48, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Description of status

For Wikipedia to describe Taiwan in the lead as a country is to usurp the United Nation's refusal to seat Taiwan as a sovereign country or state. The People's Republic of China has long maintained that Taiwan is a province, not an independent country. Provinces can have their own form of government, so just because Taiwan has exercised some autonomy in its governance does not make it a country. https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/taiwans-un-dilemma-to-be-or-not-to-be/ and https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/province/print/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcywinograd (talk • contribs) Latest revision as of 22:49, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Despite globally disputed claims, a consensus was reached by a few people who participated in a now officially closed Wikipedia discussion to describe Taiwan in the lead as a country. This is pretty outrageous, given the fact that Taiwan's status is in serous dispute, with the United Nations refusing to seat Taiwan as an independent country. At the very least, the lead should acknowledge that Taiwan's status is in dispute. Instead, a few anonymous editors proclaimed it a sovereign nation. How absurd-and dangerous, very dangerous given that there are voices in both of the major US political parties itching for war with the nuclear-armed People's Republic of China over the status of Taiwan. For Wikipedia to declare Taiwan an independent country is to serve as a mouthpiece for these neocon voices, while contradicting official US foreign policy which adopted a 1-China policy in the 1974 Shanghai Communique. I respectfully ask that this discussion be re-opened and the lead be re-written. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcywinograd (talk • contribs) Latest revision as of 23:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

For a few Wikipedia editors to pronounce Taiwan a country and then close the "official" discussion page is troubling and undemocratic. There is no consensus on this topic, certainly not on the global stage. The People's Republic of China says Taiwan is a break-away province and has been ever seen anti-communists took up shop there, while supporters of Taiwan sovereignty and the neocons in the Biden administration and Congress insist Taiwan is a country. At the very least, the lead should reflect the dispute and not make a pronouncement that undescores a political agenda. Hawks in Congress are itching for war with the PRC over Taiwan sovereignty. Don't believe me? Read the Eagle Act in the House; Read the US Innovation and Competition Act in the Senate. This is a big deal and the discussion should be reopened. Thank you.Marcywinograd (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Taiwan has never been ruled by the PRC. As it stands, for 71 years now, the Taiwanese have been ruled by an entirely separate government, Taiwanese leader was elected by its own citizens through democratic votes held in every four years, unlike the governors of HongKong were assigned by Beijing's preference. The PRC has never possessed sovereignty over Taiwan. The PRC has been threatening to invade and annex Taiwan "by force if necessary" ever since Chiang Kai-shek and his goons fled there in 1949. My question is... what do we view as being "neutral" on this topic? Does being "neutral" mean giving equal weight to both the defenders, the Taiwanese, who have lived on Taiwan for either decades or centuries and whose lives are daily endangered by a hostile foreign regime, and the aggressor, the People's Republic of China, a regime that has never ruled Taiwan in history and yet threatens Taiwan with military annihilation on a regular basis?

And for your information, Taiwan a.k.a the ROC was a former member before 1971 and even a founding member of the United Nation, if it matters so much to you to stress on the acknowledgement by the UN, should you add additional information over China's article highlighting about the historical fact that "the PRC was not recognised by the United Nation as legitimate government of China from 1949 and 1971" to make more consistent on both sides? By your definition, the People's Republic China only came to be a "country" from 1971 onward, isn't it?

You are free to arise the issue as many times as you like whereas the similar arguments have been brought up countless time, I reckon the consensus would be any diffrence. LVTW2 (talk) 23:46, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

You keep mentioning the UN, but I can't seem to remember when the UN gained the power to determine the meanings of English words. --Khajidha (talk) 01:23, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

For Wikipedia to declare Taiwan a country conflicts with the U.S. State Department's communique, as referenced here on the Department's web site: "The United States and Taiwan enjoy a robust unofficial relationship. The 1979 U.S.-P.R.C. Joint Communique switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China." The lead of the Wikipedia Taiwan entry makes it sound like there is global consensus to recognize Taiwan as a country. There is no such consensus. I am asking whoever is in charge here, administrator wise, to change the lead to at least reflect the dispute and to remove any warning signs posted, either intentionally or not, that chill debate on a highly charged topicMarcywinograd (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2021 (UTC). Marcywinograd (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2021 (UTC) https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-taiwan/

Okay... making your edit request here to explain what exactly your suggested change over the leading article is going to be here[1], then request for a Dispute resolution here [2]. It is meaningless and tedious to keep arguing since you denied any consensus ever made by the community in past experiences, so let us make a democratic move at your willLVTW2 (talk) 09:04, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, LVTW2, or your guidance in resolving this. I appreciate the links. Best, Marcy